PDA

View Full Version : Discussion Is it our own fault they react this way?



Lyndie
Nov 21st 2008, 07:52 PM
I was reading the threads about Prop 8 and the h*mos*xuals attacking the churches and it got me thinking about something. Is it possible that it is our own fault they are responding this way? It seems from what I read and hear through this site and tv and online that the predominate issues christians are in an uproar about are abortion and h*mos*xuality. Yes, I know that these are terrible, but so is lying, drunkeneess, idolatry, etc. Many unbelievers only see us preaching against these, and nothing else, which is why they may think we hate them so, particularly the people who are g*y. They think we are singling them out. Do you believe it is a reasonable theory I have put out here? Why or why not?

daughter
Nov 21st 2008, 08:32 PM
I think you make a good point... the problem is that homosexual behaviour is sinful, and to people who are not "that way inclined" it's rather repulsive. Homosexuals themselves cannot see (or remember) that their sin provokes disgust, and they are offended by the reaction. (When I was in that kind of relationship myself, before I was Christian, I managed to "edit" my previous feelings regarding same sex bonds. Deep down though I still knew.) People tend to react with a visceral horror when confronted by that particular sin.

In one of the "protests" against Prop 8 there was an incident when the "protestors" disrupted a service by, among other things, "making out" in front of the congregation and preacher. It struck me that people were offended by "queer kissing," as though such behaviour would have been less reprehensible between heterosexual people in a house of God.

We can't help our feelings, but we do have to remember that all sin is reprehensible and disgusting in the eyes of God. Including our own sins.

The media feeding frenzy surrounding homosexuality generates a counter reaction amongst Christians, so it ends up looking as though Christians are fighting a losing battle against a newly liberated group that (according to the new history everyone is being brainwashed with) we have been oppressing. To a certain extent the fact that we keep throwing our pearls before the same swine, year in and year out, is stimmying us. We stop teaching our own children about the value of chastity, we stop examining our own habits of thought and behaviour. The devil has us distracted on one front, and he's painting us into a corner.

We need to remember that the gates of hell cannot prevail against Christ's church, and we need to treat homosexual sinners not as a special class of sinner, but as lost men and women who need the gospel, just like a heterosexual man cheating on his wife, or an alchoholic mother who neglects her kids.

People are people, and we need to look at THEM primarily, not the sin.

Back2Front
Nov 21st 2008, 08:39 PM
I was reading the threads about Prop 8 and the h*mos*xuals attacking the churches and it got me thinking about something. Is it possible that it is our own fault they are responding this way?

Very insightful. An insight that can only come from the Holy Spirit.


It seems from what I read and hear through this site and tv and online that the predominate issues christians are in an uproar about are abortion and h*mos*xuality. Yes, I know that these are terrible, but so is lying, drunkeneess, idolatry, etc. Many unbelievers only see us preaching against these, and nothing else,

My heart leaps with joy at the depth of this understanding you are having here.


which is why they may think we hate them so, particularly the people who are g*y. They think we are singling them out. Do you believe it is a reasonable theory I have put out here? Why or why not?

Who can run before they crawl?

In the same way, who can preach and teach about the huge strokes and obvious laws, when they themselves have yet to learn and practice the jots and the tittles?

daughter
Nov 21st 2008, 09:47 PM
Or to put it another way, we should remove the log from our own eye. Good point, Back2Front.

Back2Front
Nov 21st 2008, 10:20 PM
Or to put it another way, we should remove the log from our own eye. Good point, Back2Front.

From the very words of Christ himself always comes a certain punctuation. Thank you for quoting him.

Back2Front
Nov 21st 2008, 11:16 PM
Or to put it another way, we should remove the log from our own eye. Good point, Back2Front.

I also want to say that the application of the words from Christ himself always causes me Joy as it is the literal road map for me as to how to live life in the flesh, through the spirit in a way that seeks the perfection of He who has set my example in both flesh and Spirit.

Living and learning the jots and tittles should indeed never cause one to ignore the plank in their own eye, through nitpicking at the speck in our brothers and sisters eye.

brakelite
Nov 22nd 2008, 12:41 AM
When "Christians" openly preach condemnation and hell-fire to unbelievers I think God is embarrassed that His children are getting it so wrong.
The gospel is best expressed by following Jesus example. He offered them life first, then revealed the people His law.
An example of this is the woman at the well. He offered her living water, and when He had her interest, He then pointed out her sin, although not in any manner that condemned. His message to her gave her an overwhelming sense of acceptance, despite having Him tell her "everything that I had ever done".
Another example of this is seen with God's treatment of Israel while in Egypt. They had forgotten His ways after many hundreds of years and had no or little knowledge of the true God. Their slavery had blinded them to hope, until God sent them a deliverer in the person of Moses. Their salvation came first. Then, while beginning their journey, God gave them His law.
So many Christians have this back to front. We call people sinners, we condemn and accuse and expect them to respond favorably. We are not only deceiving them but ourselves also. But worse, we are promoting a completely wrong perception of the nature and character of a loving, merciful and gracious God.

moonglow
Nov 22nd 2008, 03:46 AM
When "Christians" openly preach condemnation and hell-fire to unbelievers I think God is embarrassed that His children are getting it so wrong.
The gospel is best expressed by following Jesus example. He offered them life first, then revealed the people His law.
An example of this is the woman at the well. He offered her living water, and when He had her interest, He then pointed out her sin, although not in any manner that condemned. His message to her gave her an overwhelming sense of acceptance, despite having Him tell her "everything that I had ever done".
Another example of this is seen with God's treatment of Israel while in Egypt. They had forgotten His ways after many hundreds of years and had no or little knowledge of the true God. Their slavery had blinded them to hope, until God sent them a deliverer in the person of Moses. Their salvation came first. Then, while beginning their journey, God gave them His law.
So many Christians have this back to front. We call people sinners, we condemn and accuse and expect them to respond favorably. We are not only deceiving them but ourselves also. But worse, we are promoting a completely wrong perception of the nature and character of a loving, merciful and gracious God.

Great post! I agree. Sadly I think because we don't follow the instruction in the bible given on how to reach the lost...and follow Christ example, we drive more away from God then too Him. Its getting really bad with the Christians too...especially on the net! The attacks on nonbelievers is so horrible its sickening...they bait them just to attack them...and they cuss like you wouldn't believe!

I made this video to address this problem...

filthy mouth Christians (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iwc_qtZG2lU)

We cannot go around just doing these things and claiming we are doing it in the Name of God. Its shaming Him and everything He did for THE sinners...for the LOST.

God bless

looking4jesus
Nov 22nd 2008, 03:57 AM
Great post! I agree. Sadly I think because we don't follow the instruction in the bible given on how to reach the lost...and follow Christ example, we drive more away from God then too Him. Its getting really bad with the Christians too...especially on the net! The attacks on nonbelievers is so horrible its sickening...they bait them just to attack them...and they cuss like you wouldn't believe!

I made this video to address this problem...

filthy mouth Christians (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iwc_qtZG2lU)

We cannot go around just doing these things and claiming we are doing it in the Name of God. Its shaming Him and everything He did for THE sinners...for the LOST.

God bless

Great Video MoonGlow
God Bless
Randy

CrossMaker
Nov 22nd 2008, 04:36 AM
I think it's very important to keep one key point in mind here.

Whenever you hear accounts of certain groups acting out in a malicious or otherwise extreme way -- Muslims bombing trains, Christians picketing funerals, gay people attacking churches -- one must realize that these extremists do not represent the vast majority of others within their particular group.

The group of gay people who attacked that church in Michigan were wrong in what they did, and most gay people would agree that it was wrong and wouldn't condone what they did in the least. It isn't right to take the extreme actions of a few and assume they speak for the majority.

That said, I can tell you for a fact that the issue many gay people -- as well as straight non-Christians -- have with Christians is the "my sin isn't as bad as your sin" mentality many Christians have. Sure, it's easy to look down on gay people and tell them how horrible their actions are in God's eyes, but what does the bible say about looking at the speck in your neighbor's eye? What issues do you struggle with in your own life, yet not consider them "as bad" as the sins of others? Maybe even things that you know are wrong but have no intentions of changing? Think about how you might feel having someone bringing those sins up to you every time they see you, and the picture becomes clearer.

If we treat everyone with love and compassion, and stop holding the 10 foot pole out in front of those we don't agree with, we come closer to living and showing the love Jesus had for people in His time. We must stop looking down on others just because their sin "seems" worse than our own.

Lyndie
Nov 22nd 2008, 05:57 PM
Wow, great discussion so far. Moonglow, that video was awesome. The subject of abortion comes to mind also. I had the opportunity to go to Soulfest this yr, andit was awesome. One of the stories they told was about a teen girl who was preganant, and was going to abort her baby. The people who were speaking told of how they loved on her, gave her hope, and the girl decided to keep her baby. I wonder how many more babaies we can save if, instaed of standing outside clinics screaming "murderer" and holding up pics of fetuses, we handed out hot choccolate and said something to the effect of

"hi. Would you like some hot chocolate? I can only imagine how difficult this must be for you right now, and you might think this is your only way out. But it isn't. We can help you figure out other options. We can help you get your education, or a job, or a home, and give you rides to dr appt's if you need them. We can also have a baby shower at our church if you are in need of items to care for your baby. OR, we can help you find a loving home, if that is what you'd like." Part of the problem is when a girl gets pregant young, many people say "You've ruined your life, its going to be so hard now, you'll never get an education, etc". By saying those things abortions seems like an easy out, because the child will be a burden. Will it be hard? Of course, I was a mom at 19, I know. But, most of the women I know who have had abortions did it because they felt there was no other way. They are scared, mostly. Especially girls who are in the church. Instead of condemning them, we should help them, because girls in the church have abortions more often than we care to admit, and they are problem the most frightened of all, expecting condemnation and the like.

Forth the March
Nov 23rd 2008, 07:28 AM
We do nothing wrong when we try to get people to repent of their sins; we are only trying to help them.

We'd like it if people would not indulge in their sins but would find try happiness with God.

A lot of people think that pleasure=happiness, but really is that the case? Who's happy when a drunk kills someone? Who's happy when they've ruined their body from drugs?

True happiness is dwelling with God, not some fleshy craving.

one_lost_coin
Nov 24th 2008, 02:31 PM
Wow, great discussion so far. Moonglow, that video was awesome. The subject of abortion comes to mind also. I had the opportunity to go to Soulfest this yr, andit was awesome. One of the stories they told was about a teen girl who was preganant, and was going to abort her baby. The people who were speaking told of how they loved on her, gave her hope, and the girl decided to keep her baby. I wonder how many more babaies we can save if, instaed of standing outside clinics screaming "murderer" and holding up pics of fetuses, we handed out hot choccolate and said something to the effect of

"hi. Would you like some hot chocolate? I can only imagine how difficult this must be for you right now, and you might think this is your only way out. But it isn't. We can help you figure out other options. We can help you get your education, or a job, or a home, and give you rides to dr appt's if you need them. We can also have a baby shower at our church if you are in need of items to care for your baby. OR, we can help you find a loving home, if that is what you'd like." Part of the problem is when a girl gets pregant young, many people say "You've ruined your life, its going to be so hard now, you'll never get an education, etc". By saying those things abortions seems like an easy out, because the child will be a burden. Will it be hard? Of course, I was a mom at 19, I know. But, most of the women I know who have had abortions did it because they felt there was no other way. They are scared, mostly. Especially girls who are in the church. Instead of condemning them, we should help them, because girls in the church have abortions more often than we care to admit, and they are problem the most frightened of all, expecting condemnation and the like.

You may be interested in the work of this group.

http://www.rachelsvineyard.org/

Semi-tortured
Nov 24th 2008, 04:10 PM
It's easy to go after sins you have no interest in doing. Christians love to attack homosexuality because its a sin that most of us not only have no desire to do, but it disgusts us on a natural, human level without even delving into the spiritual horror. Now, take fornication. That sin is appealing to our flesh. I'm a guy and I know for a fact if there were no God or ultimate morality, I'd be out having sex with women. But I also know for a fact I would not be in a homosexual relationship.

We as Christians tend to condemn sin based on the weaknesses and strengths of our flesh rather than the truth that lies in our spirit.

IamBill
Nov 24th 2008, 08:17 PM
The first thirty yrs. of my life, there was not a person on the face of the Earth who could have convinced me that God existed.

But there were many who convinced me there was not ..can anyone guess who they were ?

crossroadsblog
Nov 24th 2008, 09:28 PM
I was reading the threads about Prop 8 and the h*mos*xuals attacking the churches and it got me thinking about something. Is it possible that it is our own fault they are responding this way? It seems from what I read and hear through this site and tv and online that the predominate issues christians are in an uproar about are abortion and h*mos*xuality. Yes, I know that these are terrible, but so is lying, drunkeneess, idolatry, etc. Many unbelievers only see us preaching against these, and nothing else, which is why they may think we hate them so, particularly the people who are g*y. They think we are singling them out. Do you believe it is a reasonable theory I have put out here? Why or why not?

Have you read what the homosexuals have to say about Christians? Have you heard, from a gay man or woman, how Christians make them feel. The general sentiment from the gay society is that Christians make them feel less than human. Certainly their feelings must be valid, right? Why would they feel that way? What has the Church done?

The real question is: can you take yourself out of your own paradigm and look at the world from the perspective of a gay man or woman? Can you begin to understand their culture as they see it? Not saying you have to approve of it or condone it, but it might help build better bridges between Christians and homosexuals.

CrossMaker
Nov 24th 2008, 09:36 PM
Have you read what the homosexuals have to say about Christians? Have you heard, from a gay man or woman, how Christians make them feel. The general sentiment from the gay society is that Christians make them feel less than human. Certainly their feelings must be valid, right? Why would they feel that way? What has the Church done?

The real question is: can you take yourself out of your own paradigm and look at the world from the perspective of a gay man or woman? Can you begin to understand their culture as they see it? Not saying you have to approve of it or condone it, but it might help build better bridges between Christians and homosexuals.

Well said. It's the exact same thing as going up to an obese person and saying, "You are disgusting and fat and you're going to die an early death. Stop eating so much, you abomination! You are a disgusting cow in the eyes of God!"

It's interesting (however sad) that many Christians would NEVER dream of treating an obese person in such a way, yet they have no problem treating gay people this way. They have let their ignorance and hate rule their actions.

BlessedMan
Nov 25th 2008, 11:49 PM
The Episcopal Church elected a homosexual bishop and it split the church on them. What people do in private is not so much the issue as what should be public policy. If I am on a walk and I see a young couple having a public display of affection it may even make me happier about the world. However if that couple was both men it would have the opposite effect. Why? well there are deep seated roots in humans nature that futile and unhappy things should be minimised. The greatest minimizer of sadness I can think of in history is Jesus Crist.

Dani H
Dec 2nd 2008, 05:10 PM
I think the goal of the enemy is always to foster an "us" versus "them" mentality. Homosexuality is just one of those examples, and in our society today it has become nothing more than a pet issue, quite frankly. One the one side you have preachers and "Christians" railing against it, on the other side you have people pushing the gay agenda and using it to pursue their own longings for power and control. It's a political game, with "Christianity" being used as a pawn and people being pit against one another that really has nothing to do with God, the Bible, Jesus or anything at all. Because those who really belong to Jesus have always loved the sinners. So the ones railing and judging on both sides have nothing to do with Christianity, really. It's a smoke screen and a bunch of hogwash. Its' a power game and a struggle for control, with people feeling threatened on both sides because they are listening to lies and they are being manipulated by something they don't even realize is there, which of course is the enemy and his agenda of strife and destruction and enmity and conflict. It's just something else that satan uses to pit people against one another, whereas God desires unity and peace, which as true Christians, ought to be our goal, always. It's entirely possible to disagree and take a stand without attacking and uttering threats and getting all up in arms because we feel threatened and our flesh goes all sorts of wonky. God doesn't go bonkers in the light of homosexual sin, and neither should we, and those who belong to Him, won't.

One of my best friends is a homosexual, and I've never done anything less than loved her even when I was personally struggling with her choices, and she knows it, and appreciates it. She knows where I stand, and we've had a lot of very open talks about it, but she also knows I love her deeply, and so ultimately, it's a choice between her and God that she is responsible for, not me. I've met many gay men through my sister-in-law and they know where I stand with my beliefs and we've had quite a few discussions, but I've never been anything less than loving and respectful towards them, which I know this is how my true brothers and sisters in Christ behave themselves because I know God won't let us do any less than that. The Holy Spirit is the Holy Spirit, and those who belong to Him and pay attention to Him will conduct themselves accordingly, no matter what sin they are confronted with, within themselves, or from others.

So again, the "us" versus "them" is a smoke screen from the pit of hell itself and isn't something we ought to concern ourselves with, because before God, sin is sin, and we all need Jesus, period.

EarlyCall
Dec 2nd 2008, 06:17 PM
I was reading the threads about Prop 8 and the h*mos*xuals attacking the churches and it got me thinking about something. Is it possible that it is our own fault they are responding this way? It seems from what I read and hear through this site and tv and online that the predominate issues christians are in an uproar about are abortion and h*mos*xuality. Yes, I know that these are terrible, but so is lying, drunkeneess, idolatry, etc. Many unbelievers only see us preaching against these, and nothing else, which is why they may think we hate them so, particularly the people who are g*y. They think we are singling them out. Do you believe it is a reasonable theory I have put out here? Why or why not?

Interesting. My experience on the board is that the majority of threads concerning gays are started by those that are either: gay, defending gays, trying to lessen the sin or complaining that Christians talk too much about gays the this particular sin. Your starting of this thread falls into the latter category.

Were we supposed to be silent concenring prop 8 and the afetrmath? The gays were not silent about it.

Interestingly enough, gays are always talking about their lifestyle and promoting it on TV, in movies, in magazines, in newspapers, on TV and in schools and the government - parades, Disney and so on. Have I left anything out? I'll bet I have.

Would such things be considered the reverse of what you are putting forth here? I think it would be. How might this be explained? And do you think this might lead to the increased discussion among the Christian community? Seems plausible to me. Seems reasonable to me.

Lyndie
Dec 2nd 2008, 06:47 PM
Interesting. My experience on the board is that the majority of threads concerning gays are started by those that are either: gay, defending gays, trying to lessen the sin or complaining that Christians talk too much about gays the this particular sin. Your starting of this thread falls into the latter category.

Were we supposed to be silent concenring prop 8 and the afetrmath? The gays were not silent about it.

Interestingly enough, gays are always talking about their lifestyle and promoting it on TV, in movies, in magazines, in newspapers, on TV and in schools and the government - parades, Disney and so on. Have I left anything out? I'll bet I have.

Would such things be considered the reverse of what you are putting forth here? I think it would be. How might this be explained? And do you think this might lead to the increased discussion among the Christian community? Seems plausible to me. Seems reasonable to me.

Yes, they do, but tv and media also promotes greed, adultery, pride, etc. and we don't hear a whole lot about that being wrong from christians.

EarlyCall
Dec 2nd 2008, 11:22 PM
Yes, they do, but tv and media also promotes greed, adultery, pride, etc. and we don't hear a whole lot about that being wrong from christians.

Just this morning on the way to work I heard a minister preaching on adultery.

Nevertheless, go back forty years and you won't find many people talking about it. Can you guess why that was? As time went on and the gays began to force their lifestyle as mainstream, the rest of us began talking about in direct and appropriate proportion. Do you see any correlation there? I do.

I will bet you one million dollars that if we heard and saw not another thing concerning gays for the next five years, you'd almost never hear Christians speaking about it at the end of that five years. Again, the correlation is direct and easily recognized if one but looks.

wrldstrman
Dec 5th 2008, 08:07 AM
thing is we cant talk about God is schools but they can ram the homosexual agenda down our kids throats. I agree we should love people who are gay as much as anyone else, but never condone the behavior.

militarywife
Dec 5th 2008, 10:57 AM
When "Christians" openly preach condemnation and hell-fire to unbelievers I think God is embarrassed that His children are getting it so wrong.
The gospel is best expressed by following Jesus example. He offered them life first, then revealed the people His law.
An example of this is the woman at the well. He offered her living water, and when He had her interest, He then pointed out her sin, although not in any manner that condemned. His message to her gave her an overwhelming sense of acceptance, despite having Him tell her "everything that I had ever done".
Another example of this is seen with God's treatment of Israel while in Egypt. They had forgotten His ways after many hundreds of years and had no or little knowledge of the true God. Their slavery had blinded them to hope, until God sent them a deliverer in the person of Moses. Their salvation came first. Then, while beginning their journey, God gave them His law.
So many Christians have this back to front. We call people sinners, we condemn and accuse and expect them to respond favorably. We are not only deceiving them but ourselves also. But worse, we are promoting a completely wrong perception of the nature and character of a loving, merciful and gracious God.
Great post. It surely says in Matt 11:28-30
Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.