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Jags~Beach
Nov 22nd 2008, 12:55 AM
Prove me wrong:cool:

threebigrocks
Nov 22nd 2008, 01:07 AM
That happens post millennial reign.

Prove that has happened, and it's all good! ;)

Jags~Beach
Nov 22nd 2008, 01:23 AM
That happens post millennial reign.

Prove that has happened, and it's all good! ;)


The reign of Christ is eternal, prove where it is interupted after 1000 years, and no it is not all good.

cross+tie
Nov 22nd 2008, 01:31 AM
The reign of Christ is eternal, prove where it is interupted after 1000 years, and no it is not all good.

how does your statement tie in to the residence of satan....

Slug1
Nov 22nd 2008, 01:39 AM
The reign of Christ is eternal, prove where it is interupted after 1000 years, and no it is not all good.Ooh, Ooh, pick me ;)

Revelation 20

Satan Bound

1 Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven with the key to the abyss (A (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Rev%2020&multilayout=cols&version1=77&version2=50#cen-HCSB-31415A)) and a great chain in his hand. 2 He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent who is the Devil and Satan, (B (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Rev%2020&multilayout=cols&version1=77&version2=50#cen-HCSB-31416B)) [a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Rev%2020&multilayout=cols&version1=77&version2=50#fen-HCSB-31416a)] and bound (C (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Rev%2020&multilayout=cols&version1=77&version2=50#cen-HCSB-31416C)) him for 1,000 years. 3 He threw him into the abyss, closed it, and put a seal on it (D (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Rev%2020&multilayout=cols&version1=77&version2=50#cen-HCSB-31417D)) so that he would no longer deceive the nations (E (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Rev%2020&multilayout=cols&version1=77&version2=50#cen-HCSB-31417E)) until the 1,000 years were completed. After that, he must be released for a short time.

ross3421
Nov 22nd 2008, 01:59 AM
Prove me wrong:cool:

So we are passed the 6th trumpet waiting for the 7th? Have these events happen?

Re 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

Re 11:4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

Re 11:5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.

Re 11:6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.

Re 11:7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

1. Re 11:8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

2. Re 11:9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.

3. Re 11:10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.

4. Re 11:11 And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.

5. Re 11:12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

6. Re 11:13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.

Re 11:14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.

Re 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

cwb
Nov 22nd 2008, 02:14 AM
Prove me wrong:cool:

How can he be freed from a prison sentence he has not yet started to serve?:confused

Marc B
Nov 22nd 2008, 02:14 AM
Re 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

Sure sounds like the kingdom of God hasn't arrived yet to me. Yet some will still argue the kingdom is already here in our hearts. Even though it doesn't say that in the Bible. Go figure. :confused

vinsight4u8
Nov 22nd 2008, 04:09 PM
Rev. 20 can't unfold till Rev. 19 has given us the time of one army of God's fighting against the beast.

See how in Rev. 20 - "they sat"?

Who?
That army that won the victory over the beast in the time of Armageddon's chapter 19 battle.

John began to tell a story at the start of chapter 19 and it continues right on into chapter 20.

theBelovedDisciple
Nov 22nd 2008, 04:09 PM
Sure sounds like the kingdom of God hasn't arrived yet to me. Yet some will still argue the kingdom is already here in our hearts. Even though it doesn't say that in the Bible. Go figure. :confused


Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

Luke 17:21

vinsight4u8
Nov 22nd 2008, 04:17 PM
Rev. 18 has ended and then John shows us how after that message...a new story - now begins

Rev. 19:1
And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying...Salvation...

salvation - Jesus comes back
Hebrews 9:28
So Christ...look for him shall he appear the second time...unto salvation."

Jesus appears at the start of Rev. 19.
Then we find that this is also the time to punish the city of mystery, Babylon - the city that corrupted the earth.
then

V7
"...for the marriage of the Lamb is come..."

Chapter 20 still can't start yet...not till Jesus returns again - this time with His saints as "armies" and one "army" will fight at Armageddon - so they too like the other army of God gained victory over the beast man of sin from Iraq.

vinsight4u8
Nov 22nd 2008, 04:24 PM
Another thing to consider too is the wording that John uses as he writes out Revelation.

Long before we got to chapter 20 - John has told of how this or that angel came down from heaven, yet look closely at Rev. 20:1.

an angel

"I saw an angel come down from heaven..."

What? John does not tell us that he saw another angel come down. John makes it out as if this is the first time he sees this happening.
Why?
Because at the time of the rapture ending - the angels returned to heaven - angels that John had seen coming down for various reasons -went back to heaven, so -now begins the time of them coming down again.

as in Rev. 5:11 - many angels round about the throne
as in Rev. 7:11 - all the angels stood round about the throne
Rev. 20:1 - "...saw an angel come down from heaven..."

WritingRose
Nov 23rd 2008, 11:09 PM
How can he be freed from a prison sentence he has not yet started to serve?:confused


Aye, very good question, indeed. :giveup: rofl

DIZZY
Nov 24th 2008, 12:44 AM
Prove me wrong:cool:

Tell me when was he put in prison?

ross3421
Nov 24th 2008, 01:15 AM
Tell me when was he put in prison?

It has not happened yet but will before Christ returns.....

Satan is cast out of heaven and into the abyss prior to the 1260 days. Note the key word "into" and woe to the ihabitors of the "sea" ie abyss. Also we see that the women is from the face of the serpent for this time as well.

Re 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Re 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you,

Re 12:14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

Satan and his angels then come up upon the earth after the abyss is opened as seen in 5th trumpet. He is the king of the pit. This trumpet finishes up the remainder of the 1260 days. Is there not a beast which comes up from the pit prior to Christ's return? Who could this be other than a spirit Satan himself.

Re 9:1 And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.
Re 9:2 And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit,

Re 9:11 And they had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit,

Re 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition:

After 30 days he will sit in the temple, after another 35 days he will be destroyed.

Mark

Ekeak
Nov 24th 2008, 03:21 AM
Satan can't be wrathful like the Lord, so he is enraged. He already works through others- merely decieving the nations will be a testament to how vile he is and how propitiate his works are.

third hero
Nov 24th 2008, 05:33 AM
Tell me when was he put in prison?

I think this question should be answered before we go on in this debate. From my perspective, (the premil), in order to say that Satan is imprisoned, a few things have to happen first. According to the previous chapter, the Lord has to have returned and the feast of the Lamb had to have happened. Also, the Beast and the False prophet has to have been captured and taken to heaven to face their final punishment. In order for that to happen, the Evil One had to be revealed, and the Great Tribulation had to have happened already. (Remember, the time in question, the Great Tribulation, has to be a period of unparalelled suffering (Matthew 24:21))

And so, I'll reiterate the question. When was Satan sealed away in the bottomless pit? When was he imprisoned?

wpm
Nov 24th 2008, 03:23 PM
I think this question should be answered before we go on in this debate. From my perspective, (the premil), in order to say that Satan is imprisoned, a few things have to happen first. According to the previous chapter, the Lord has to have returned and the feast of the Lamb had to have happened. Also, the Beast and the False prophet has to have been captured and taken to heaven to face their final punishment. In order for that to happen, the Evil One had to be revealed, and the Great Tribulation had to have happened already. (Remember, the time in question, the Great Tribulation, has to be a period of unparalelled suffering (Matthew 24:21))

And so, I'll reiterate the question. When was Satan sealed away in the bottomless pit? When was he imprisoned?

The demonic spirits have been spiritually imprisoned since the resurrection. Satan was spiritually bound in chains in order to facilitate the spread of the Gospel to his territory. No other meaning enjoys scriptural corroboration. The rest of the demonic world is bound by chains until the judgment (as demonstrated in 2 Peter 2:4, Jude v6), yet this does not stop their movement but simply limits it. Satan’s hoards are bound as to their influence but this does not prevent movement. They must keep within heaven’s boundaries.

treasureman
Nov 24th 2008, 07:27 PM
In the First Earth Age In Heaven, Satan and one third of God's angels rebelled against Him. At that time Satan was chained in heaven and is guarded by the Archangel Michael.

However Satan's spirit roams the earth. At the sixth trump Satan will be released and return to earth in Jerusalem as the AntiChrist.

At the end of the millenium (1000 yrs) when all people are taught the Word of God, Satan will be released for a short period of time and people will have a choice to follow Satan or Jesus. At this time all souls will be judged and Satan and his followers will be cast into the bottomless pit
for ever and never more.

God Bless,
Treasureman

VerticalReality
Nov 24th 2008, 08:46 PM
If the great falling away has already begun, which many believe that it has, then Satan very well could already be loosed in my opinion.

moonglow
Nov 24th 2008, 08:58 PM
Here is a great link for those wishing to understand more fully about how satan is bound...it never says sin will stop once he is bound...people assume that...I am not sure why since its not in scriptures.

The Person, Work, and Present Status of Satan (http://www.cmfnow.com/articles/pt015.htm)

God bless

third hero
Nov 25th 2008, 03:01 AM
The demonic spirits have been spiritually imprisoned since the resurrection. Satan was spiritually bound in chains in order to facilitate the spread of the Gospel to his territory. No other meaning enjoys scriptural corroboration. The rest of the demonic world is bound by chains until the judgment (as demonstrated in 2 Peter 2:4, Jude v6), yet this does not stop their movement but simply limits it. Satan’s hoards are bound as to their influence but this does not prevent movement. They must keep within heaven’s boundaries.

According to 1Peter, Satan was loose, like a roaring lion. This was written AFTER Christ's resurrection. So if he is free, then how is he bound? This makes the least sense. Either Satan is imprisoned or not, and seriously, I have not seen anyone show the point when the evil one was sealed away from the earth.

Again, until this point of contention is reconciled, I believe the debate can not progress.

third hero
Nov 25th 2008, 03:11 AM
Here is a great link for those wishing to understand more fully about how satan is bound...it never says sin will stop once he is bound...people assume that...I am not sure why since its not in scriptures.

The Person, Work, and Present Status of Satan (http://www.cmfnow.com/articles/pt015.htm)

God bless

Your link still does not reconcile this scripture.

And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season. -Revelation 20:1-3

As clear as both the Greek and English can decribe what is written here, Satan, the dragon, is suppose to be imprisoned. Notice the details of his imprisonment. He is to deceive the nations NO MORE until that time period expired. That is why the term "sealed" was used in Satan's imprisonment. It implies much more than a hampering or a degradation of power as the Amils propose. This "sealing" is the absolute cutting off of Satan from the world. And honestly, no one has been able to figurate these scriptures away. This is the greatest reason why I do not subscribe to Amillennialism. Figuration can only go so far in interpreting the Bible and Bible prophecy.

And so, until you can show definite period of time between 33AD and 2008 where Satan had absolutely no influence on this world, you can not definitively proclaim that the evil one was imprisoned, because he was not.

wpm
Nov 25th 2008, 03:21 AM
According to 1Peter, Satan was loose, like a roaring lion. This was written AFTER Christ's resurrection. So if he is free, then how is he bound? This makes the least sense. Either Satan is imprisoned or not, and seriously, I have not seen anyone show the point when the evil one was sealed away from the earth.

Again, until this point of contention is reconciled, I believe the debate can not progress.

There is no contradiction here, as you seem to intimate. Incarceration does not denote non-movement, simply limitation of movement. That is what has happened to Satan. Most inmates have a degree of movement when locked up, albeit restricted. Satan is the same.

His prison is spiritual not physical (as Premils suggest). After all, he is a spiritual being.

wpm
Nov 25th 2008, 03:30 AM
Your link still does not reconcile this scripture.

And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season. -Revelation 20:1-3

As clear as both the Greek and English can decribe what is written here, Satan, the dragon, is suppose to be imprisoned. Notice the details of his imprisonment. He is to deceive the nations NO MORE until that time period expired. That is why the term "sealed" was used in Satan's imprisonment. It implies much more than a hampering or a degradation of power as the Amils propose. This "sealing" is the absolute cutting off of Satan from the world. And honestly, no one has been able to figurate these scriptures away. This is the greatest reason why I do not subscribe to Amillennialism. Figuration can only go so far in interpreting the Bible and Bible prophecy.

And so, until you can show definite period of time between 33AD and 2008 where Satan had absolutely no influence on this world, you can not definitively proclaim that the evil one was imprisoned, because he was not.

One thing that is to the fore of Christ’s earthly ministry and His subsequent death, burial and resurrection was His steadfast assault upon the kingdom of darkness and its consequential defeat. It was the Lord’s unswerving concern to destroy Satan’s power and dislodge his demonic powers. It was Jesus Himself who spoke of the necessity to “bind the strong man” (Satan) in order to plunder his house and rescue people from his ugly grip (Matthew 12:29).

Christ equipped the disciples to take the Gospel out to the unregenerate. Significantly, this commission involved 3 important things (1) preaching the Gospel, (2) healing the sick and (3) casting out devils. We see this outlined in Luke 9:1-2, 6: “Then he called his twelve disciples together, and gave them power and authority over all devils, and to cure diseases. And he sent them to preach the kingdom of God, and to heal the sick ... And they departed, and went through the towns, preaching the gospel, and healing every where.”

The introduction of the kingdom of God to this earth through the earthly ministry of Christ saw the suppression of the demonic world. Everywhere the Gospel prevailed Satan was bound and decisively defeated. In verse 1 Christ “gave them (His disciples) power and authority over all devils.” God’s people were empowered to exercise God’s power and subjugate the power that Satan bore over the lives of men and women.

In Luke 10 “the Lord appointed other seventy” they too were commissioned to share the joy of the Gospel, heal the sick and deliver those that were bound by Satan. These disciples experienced the power of the Gospel and the potent impact it had on Satan when after returned from preaching the gospel in Luke 10:18 they rejoiced how the demons were made subject to them. Luke 10:17 records, “the seventy returned again with joy, saying, Lord, even the devils are subject unto us through thy name.” When the gospel advances in the world and men and women are delivered from the bondage of sin and Satan, the devil is defeated and bound in their lives.

Christ said of this attack upon the kingdom of darkness: “I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven. Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you” (Luke 10:18-19).

The deliverance of men from demon possession through the casting out of devils is identified in Scripture with the curtailment of Satan’s influence. Moreover, this affair is biblically understood as the binding of Satan. Just like Christ is the head and representative of His servants (both human and angelic), so is Satan of his. When men are delivered of evil spirits Satan is bound. Through it Christ testified that “I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.” The beginning of the kingdom advance and all it involved coincided with the dethroning of Satan throughout the nations. This mission still continues today unabated. The Gentiles that were once overwhelmingly ignorant to the Gospel and totally deceived have now been subjected unto the glorious Gospel and have been given the wonderful opportunity of salvation.

third hero
Nov 25th 2008, 03:52 AM
There is no contradiction here, as you seem to intimate. Incarceration does not denote non-movement, simply limitation of movement. That is what has happened to Satan. Most inmates have a degree of movement when locked up, albeit restricted. Satan is the same.

His prison is spiritual not physical (as Premils suggest). After all, he is a spiritual being.

You do realize that Premils do not suppose that Satan is physically bound, the Bible, and namely, Revelation 20:1-3 supposes that Satan is to be bound physically in the very spiritual Abyss, a place that is capable and has really contained many spiritual beings for the last 7000 years.

third hero
Nov 25th 2008, 04:21 AM
One thing that is to the fore of Christ’s earthly ministry and His subsequent death, burial and resurrection was His steadfast assault upon the kingdom of darkness and its consequential defeat. It was the Lord’s unswerving concern to destroy Satan’s power and dislodge his demonic powers. It was Jesus Himself who spoke of the necessity to “bind the strong man” (Satan) in order to plunder his house and rescue people from his ugly grip (Matthew 12:29).

It still baffles me how one attempts to make Matthew 12:29 more than what it is. The "strongman" is bound because one who is greater than him is present, and his presence binds the "strongman". Now, you want to make Matthew 12:29 be your evidence that Satan is bound in the Abyss as mentioned in Revelation 20. I hate to break it to you, but Jeuss mentioned this parable while He was stil walking the earth, stating that HIS MINISTRY is the fulfillment of the "binding of the strongman" and that the Gospel is what is spoiling his house. Again, this is not the same as the Lord ruling the entire house, and Satan being disposessed, as Daniel 7:11-12 and Revelation 20:1-3 clearly suggests.




Christ equipped the disciples to take the Gospel out to the unregenerate. Significantly, this commission involved 3 important things (1) preaching the Gospel, (2) healing the sick and (3) casting out devils. We see this outlined in Luke 9:1-2, 6: “Then he called his twelve disciples together, and gave them power and authority over all devils, and to cure diseases. And he sent them to preach the kingdom of God, and to heal the sick ... And they departed, and went through the towns, preaching the gospel, and healing every where.”

Notice what the disciples were not given the power to do. Rule the world. This is the main difference between the "millennium" that you prescribe to, and the "Milennium" that I prescribe to. According to Revelation 20:4, the saints are to "rule with Christ". That Kingdom is not here yet, for it is a kingdom that will come to be on this earth, and just like what Revelation 21 suggest, that Kingdom is carried over from this world unto the next.


The introduction of the kingdom of God to this earth through the earthly ministry of Christ saw the suppression of the demonic world. Everywhere the Gospel prevailed Satan was bound and decisively defeated. In verse 1 Christ “gave them (His disciples) power and authority over all devils.” God’s people were empowered to exercise God’s power and subjugate the power that Satan bore over the lives of men and women.


In Luke 10 “the Lord appointed other seventy” they too were commissioned to share the joy of the Gospel, heal the sick and deliver those that were bound by Satan. These disciples experienced the power of the Gospel and the potent impact it had on Satan when after returned from preaching the gospel in Luke 10:18 they rejoiced how the demons were made subject to them. Luke 10:17 records, “the seventy returned again with joy, saying, Lord, even the devils are subject unto us through thy name.” When the gospel advances in the world and men and women are delivered from the bondage of sin and Satan, the devil is defeated and bound in their lives.

My Father, which gave [them] me, is greater than all; and no [man] is able to pluck [them] out of my Father's hand. I and [my] Father are one. -John 10:29-30

From here, we see that Lord Jesus is One with God the Father, His Father. The demons have to submit to Him because of who He is, not from anything else. The "strongman" in Matthew 12 is bound because one who is GREATER than him has arrived, and because of that, the "strongman" has to submit to Him, and as a result, the spoils of the "strongman" are plundered, not by a physical binding, but by decree of the one who is greater than him.

Therefore, the demons are subdued not by Jesus voodooing them to submission, but because the power of God is far and away MUCH GREATER than all other life forms, fallen angels included. And so, Satan and all of his kingdom is subdued by the power of the Lord Jesus, even while He walked the earth. Jesus did not have to die in order to subdue the devil,; his presence alone was more than enough. That is why he was afraid of Lord Jesus, even when He walked the earth as a baby.



Christ said of this attack upon the kingdom of darkness: “I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven. Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you” (Luke 10:18-19).

Wasn't Satan hurled from heaven before Christ walked the earth? As far as my research is concerned, according to Isaiah 14, the "Son of the Morning" lost his name and original rank when he challenged God. This was written long before Christ walked the earth. In Job, which is arguably the oldest book in the Bible, predating both the OT and NT by at least 500 years, shows that Satan had already had his name, which suggests that Satan's fall from Grace originally happened before Christ walked the earth.

Therefore, Christ's statement that you quote above was not concerning the Lord's attack against the god of this world, but rather a statement of fact, since He would have seen Satan fall originally if He was with the Father as John 1 suggests.


The deliverance of men from demon possession through the casting out of devils is identified in Scripture with the curtailment of Satan’s influence. Moreover, this affair is biblically understood as the binding of Satan. Just like Christ is the head and representative of His servants (both human and angelic), so is Satan of his. When men are delivered of evil spirits Satan is bound. Through it Christ testified that
“I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.” The beginning of the kingdom advance and all it involved coincided with the dethroning of Satan throughout the nations. This mission still continues today unabated. The Gentiles that were once overwhelmingly ignorant to the Gospel and totally deceived have now been subjected unto the glorious Gospel and have been given the wonderful opportunity of salvation.

Curtailing is not the same as Binding. Even the definitions do not mesh. Binding involves the ceasing of movement or momentum. Curtailing involves the degradation of Power. When one is curtailed, one still power, but that power is limited. When one is bound, their power is removed, and thus the one bound no lolnger has power to do anything.

Consider this. IN basketball, Koby Bryant is a force on the Basketball court. Any opponent of him would love to curtail him. Very few people are able bind him. In fact, there really isn't anyone who can bind Koby on the basketball court, although some teams can find ways to curtail him. In the same sense, Satan was curtailed, and still is curtailed, due to the power of God that Lord Jesus unleashed on this earth by his birth, death and resurrection. However, Satan was not bound, and that is the difference that must be acknowledged.

MOTC7
Nov 25th 2008, 01:16 PM
FYI - Notice how the OP(original poster) hasn't responded since the quote from Revelation on page 1.

This leads me to believe he's either a troll, or just a troll. :hmm:

wpm
Nov 25th 2008, 02:19 PM
HIS MINISTRY is the fulfillment of the "binding of the strongman" and that the Gospel is what is spoiling his house.

At least we agree Satan was bound since the earthly ministry of Christ, that is advancement. Maybe we agree on more than we think.

Mark 3:11, 23-27 also records: “unclean spirits, when they saw him, fell down before him, and cried, saying, Thou art the Son of God... And the scribes which came down from Jerusalem said, He hath Beelzebub, and by the prince of the devils casteth he out devils. And he called them unto him, and said unto them in parables, How can Satan cast out Satan? And if a kingdom be divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand. And if a house be divided against itself, that house cannot stand. And if Satan rise up against himself, and be divided, he cannot stand, but hath an end.No man can enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he will first bind the strong man; and then he will spoil his house.”

This familiar discourse by our Lord was instigated by the scoffs of the religious Scribes dismissing Christ’s deliverance ministry (during His earthly ministry) as a work of Satan. Christ’s response confirmed that the binding of Satan commenced 2,000 yrs ago and is not a reality that will only appear after the Lord’s return. He said: “No man can enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he will first bind the strong man; and then he will spoil his house.” Christ was firstly referring to the false charge that was laid at his door in relation to his assault on the demonic realm. Secondly, He was describing the subjugation of the “unclean spirits” as “when they saw him” they “fell down before him” in surrender.

Christ’s earthly ministry expressly bound Satan and damaged his wicked house on this earth. This was indeed what was prophesied in the Garden of Eden. It didn’t say that the cross would destroy him, but hamper him. His head was bruised by the supernatural punch of Christ.

DurbanDude
Nov 25th 2008, 02:24 PM
20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more

I look at the world today and I look at this verse and realise why amillenialists need to explain their views so much.

wpm
Nov 25th 2008, 02:31 PM
20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more

I look at the world today and I look at this verse and realise why amillenialists need to explain their views so much.

This is a research I did a while ago. I trust it will better help you understand the enlightenment of the Gentiles in (what I believe to be) this Gospel millennium. I feel this is the key no comprehending Revelation 20.

The Greek word interpreted “nations” in Revelation 20 in the King James Version is the Greek word ethnos (Strong’s 1484) which is repeatedly translated Gentiles throughout the whole of the New Testament. In essence it means the nations, the heathen, or the non-Jews. The word is rendered Gentiles in the following passages: Matthew 4:15, 6:32, 10:5, 18, 12:18, 21, 20:19, 25, 21:43, Mark 10:33, 42, Luke 2:32, 18:32, 21:24, 22:25, Acts 4:27, 7:45, 9:15, 10:45, 11:1, 18, 13:46, 47, 48, 14:2, 5, 27, 15:3, 7, 12, 14, 17, 19, 23, 18:6, 21:11, 19, 21, 25, 22:21, 26:17, 20, 23, Romans 1:13, 2:14, 24, 3:29, 9:24, 30, 11:11, 12, 13, 25, 15:9, 10, 11, 12, 16, 18, 27, 16:4, 1 Corinthians 5:1, 12:2, Galatians 2:2, 8, 12, 14, 15, 3:14, Ephesians 2:11, 3:1, 6, 8, 4:17, Colossians 1:27, 1 Thessalonians 2:16, 4:5, 1 Timothy 2:7, 3:16, 2 Timothy 4:17, 1 Peter 2:12, 4:3, Revelation 11:2.

In fact, the most common rendering of the word in the New Testament is the word Gentiles, with eighty-three references in total in the King James Version, many of them key passages that relate to the Gospel going out to the darkened Gentiles after the Cross. Such a consistent translation shows that the interpreters could have reasonably interpreted the Greek word ethnos in Revelation 20:3 as Gentiles.

The term “the nations” (plural) is used repeatedly in Scripture to represent the Gentile nations and particularly to distinguish them from “the nation” (singular) of natural Israel where God chose to concentrate His glory for thousands of years before the Cross. Incidentally, this differentiation between the nation and the nations is common in both the Old and the New Testament. The nation of natural Israel was the sole national carrier of the favour of God for most of history; therefore, all nations outside of that “nation” were rightly viewed as heathen, idolatrous and unregenerate. The prophets and disciples would have often used varying terms like “the nations,” “the heathen,” “the whole world” and “the Gentiles” to describe the exact same once totally deluded non-Jewish people. Many Bible students totally ignore this fact and consequently force an interpretation upon Revelation 20 that can in no way be corroborated by other Scripture. In reality, the binding of Satan relates exclusively to the actual curtailing of Satan from deceiving the Gentile nations as he once did before, prior to Calvary.

Many Christians fail to see that the binding of Satan is specifically linked to the Gospel going out to the once-blinded heathen / nations or the Gentiles. The cross was the key that opened that closed door. For thousands of years before the cross Israel was the sole national custodian of the Gospel. However, the earthly ministry of Christ marked the turning point for this state of affairs. In fact, Calvary was the pivotal event that opened the way for the global un-blinding of the Gentiles. This climactic event secured salvation for the “whosoever believeth” of all tribes, colours and nationalities – none excluded. Without Christ’s atonement the Gentiles would have remained in their darkened state. The millennium ushered in an immediate and definite effect upon the nations in that Satan is bound in such a way that he cannot deceive the Gentiles by hindering the preaching of the gospel. Notwithstanding, this does not in any way imply that the whole world will be fully Christianized.

DurbanDude
Nov 25th 2008, 02:33 PM
In the First Earth Age In Heaven, Satan and one third of God's angels rebelled against Him. At that time Satan was chained in heaven and is guarded by the Archangel Michael.

However Satan's spirit roams the earth. At the sixth trump Satan will be released and return to earth in Jerusalem as the AntiChrist.

At the end of the millenium (1000 yrs) when all people are taught the Word of God, Satan will be released for a short period of time and people will have a choice to follow Satan or Jesus. At this time all souls will be judged and Satan and his followers will be cast into the bottomless pit
for ever and never more.

God Bless,
Treasureman

Treasureman, can you give verses to support your view about Satan being chained and guarded by the Archangel, I would like to learn more about this.

According to Rev 20 Satan is sealed in the bottomless pit for 1000 years and is released at the end for a short while and then is cast into the lake of fire for eternity.

Not trying to nitpick , its just a subject I have recently become interested in and trying to learn the correct order of events.

DurbanDude
Nov 25th 2008, 03:01 PM
This is a research I did a while ago. I trust it will better help you understand the enlightenment of the Gentiles in this Gospel millennium. I feel this is the key no comprehending Revelation 20.

The Greek word interpreted “nations” in Revelation 20 in the King James Version is the Greek word ethnos (Strong’s 1484) which is repeatedly translated Gentiles throughout the whole of the New Testament. In essence it means the nations, the heathen, or the non-Jews. The word is rendered Gentiles in the following passages: Matthew 4:15, 6:32, 10:5, 18, 12:18, 21, 20:19, 25, 21:43, Mark 10:33, 42, Luke 2:32, 18:32, 21:24, 22:25, Acts 4:27, 7:45, 9:15, 10:45, 11:1, 18, 13:46, 47, 48, 14:2, 5, 27, 15:3, 7, 12, 14, 17, 19, 23, 18:6, 21:11, 19, 21, 25, 22:21, 26:17, 20, 23, Romans 1:13, 2:14, 24, 3:29, 9:24, 30, 11:11, 12, 13, 25, 15:9, 10, 11, 12, 16, 18, 27, 16:4, 1 Corinthians 5:1, 12:2, Galatians 2:2, 8, 12, 14, 15, 3:14, Ephesians 2:11, 3:1, 6, 8, 4:17, Colossians 1:27, 1 Thessalonians 2:16, 4:5, 1 Timothy 2:7, 3:16, 2 Timothy 4:17, 1 Peter 2:12, 4:3, Revelation 11:2.

In fact, the most common rendering of the word in the New Testament is the word Gentiles, with eighty-three references in total in the King James Version, many of them key passages that relate to the Gospel going out to the darkened Gentiles after the Cross. Such a consistent translation shows that the interpreters could have reasonably interpreted the Greek word ethnos in Revelation 20:3 as Gentiles.

The term “the nations” (plural) is used repeatedly in Scripture to represent the Gentile nations and particularly to distinguish them from “the nation” (singular) of natural Israel where God chose to concentrate His glory for thousands of years before the Cross. Incidentally, this differentiation between the nation and the nations is common in both the Old and the New Testament. The nation of natural Israel was the sole national carrier of the favour of God for most of history; therefore, all nations outside of that “nation” were rightly viewed as heathen, idolatrous and unregenerate. The prophets and disciples would have often used varying terms like “the nations,” “the heathen,” “the whole world” and “the Gentiles” to describe the exact same once totally deluded non-Jewish people. Many Bible students totally ignore this fact and consequently force an interpretation upon Revelation 20 that can in no way be corroborated by other Scripture. In reality, the binding of Satan relates exclusively to the actual curtailing of Satan from deceiving the Gentile nations as he once did before, prior to Calvary.

Many Christians fail to see that the binding of Satan is specifically linked to the Gospel going out to the once-blinded heathen / nations or the Gentiles. The cross was the key that opened that closed door. For thousands of years before the cross Israel was the sole national custodian of the Gospel. However, the earthly ministry of Christ marked the turning point for this state of affairs. In fact, Calvary was the pivotal event that opened the way for the global un-blinding of the Gentiles. This climactic event secured salvation for the “whosoever believeth” of all tribes, colours and nationalities – none excluded. Without Christ’s atonement the Gentiles would have remained in their darkened state. The millennium ushered in an immediate and definite effect upon the nations in that Satan is bound in such a way that he cannot deceive the Gentiles by hindering the preaching of the gospel. Notwithstanding, this does not in any way imply that the whole world will be fully Christianized.

Hi , I understood all you are saying here fully from an earlier post.

Having a pre-mill perspective I believe that the books from Romans through to Revelation are currently applicable, because I believe we are in the same age as those believers to whom those books were written.

There are many warnings about the devil in the apostles letters, and I believe those warnings still apply in this age eg Eph 4:27 2 Tim 2:26 James 4:7 1 Peter 5:8 Rev 2:10 and many, many more verses.

If us Christians in this current age have to be so warned about the activities and influence of the devil, how much more so are the unbelievers of this age under the influence of the devil. The devil " prowls around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour".

So you are saying that as far as the gospel is concerned Satan is somehow bound during this period. I believe the teachings of the New testament warn us to keep the faith despite the attacks from Satan in order that we may fulfil our destiny to the nations here on earth. The New testament warns us and teaches us how to conduct spiritual warfare (in our thoughts) to overcome Satan and how to have our full armour on.

wpm
Nov 25th 2008, 03:39 PM
Hi , I understood all you are saying here fully from an earlier post.

Having a pre-mill perspective I believe that the books from Romans through to Revelation are currently applicable, because I believe we are in the same age as those believers to whom those books were written.

There are many warnings about the devil in the apostles letters, and I believe those warnings still apply in this age eg Eph 4:27 2 Tim 2:26 James 4:7 1 Peter 5:8 Rev 2:10 and many, many more verses.

If us Christians in this current age have to be so warned about the activities and influence of the devil, how much more so are the unbelievers of this age under the influence of the devil. The devil " prowls around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour".

So you are saying that as far as the gospel is concerned Satan is somehow bound during this period. I believe the teachings of the New testament warn us to keep the faith despite the attacks from Satan in order that we may fulfil our destiny to the nations here on earth. The New testament warns us and teaches us how to conduct spiritual warfare (in our thoughts) to overcome Satan and how to have our full armour on.


I think you understand this binding as physical. However, Satan is not a physical being, therefore he doesn't need to be physically bound. He is a spiritual being.

The Bible makes clear that the ungodly are held in a prison. Are all the wicked in a literal physical prison?

The Bible also repeatedly shows us that they are bound in chains. Are all the wicked restricted by literal metal chains?

We all know that the wicked are spiritually imprisoned before conversion. The spiritual chains that afflict the wicked before salvation are real, yet everyone would accept that they do not curtail the physical movement of the wicked. They do not prevent the wicked performing their daily tasks and even doing murders, rape and thefts. The unrighteous perpetrate such things upon this earth yet they are assuredly afflicted by real spiritual chains. Notwithstanding, these chains slow the individual down and ensure that he remains within a prison. The chains that burden the wicked are heavy and clearly restrict their movement and curtail their freedom. This prison is spiritual but it does not prevent movement.

The same applies to the kingdom of darkness. The same chains that curtail the wicked in their evil (and they do) have been placed on the devil's spiritual realm since the cross. It does not stop their movement or evil. It curtails their movement and influence. We are simply looking at a restriction of the devil's power. Christ stripped Satan of many of his possessions - one of these was the power of death.

Amils view Revelation symbolically because it is saturated from start to finish in symbolism. Revelation 20 is no exception. Satan is not literally a dragon and at the same time a serpent, neither should we think that a spiritual being like the devil can be held with literal metal chains in a literal brick prison house. Amils take passages that are literal in their setting literal. We take passages that are symbolic in their setting symbolic.

third hero
Nov 25th 2008, 07:40 PM
I think you understand this binding as physical. However, Satan is not a physical being, therefore he doesn't need to be physically bound. He is a spiritual being.

The Bible makes clear that the ungodly are held in a prison. Are all the wicked in a literal physical prison?

The Bible also repeatedly shows us that they are bound in chains. Are all the wicked restricted by literal metal chains?

Are the wicked who have died from creation until today literally bound? They aren't physical beings either. Or the Angel who brings the chains, is the angel a physical being? What about the bottomless pit? Is that a physical place?

The last time I checked, the Angel carrying the great chain is not a physical being, the bottomless pit is not a physical place and the wicked dead are not physical beings. However, the bottomless pit is a literal place, the angel is a literal being, so are the dead, Satan, and the chain that the angel is carrying. And so, the spirit being, Satan, is chained by a spiritual chain, and hurled into a spiritual pit with the rest of the wicked dead (sans the Beast and False prophet), and literally sealed away from the physical earth.

See how the "physical versus spiritual thing doesn't hold up here?


We all know that the wicked are spiritually imprisoned before conversion. The spiritual chains that afflict the wicked before salvation are real, yet everyone would accept that they do not curtail the physical movement of the wicked. They do not prevent the wicked performing their daily tasks and even doing murders, rape and thefts. The unrighteous perpetrate such things upon this earth yet they are assuredly afflicted by real spiritual chains. Notwithstanding, these chains slow the individual down and ensure that he remains within a prison. The chains that burden the wicked are heavy and clearly restrict their movement and curtail their freedom. This prison is spiritual but it does not prevent movement.

The same applies to the kingdom of darkness. The same chains that curtail the wicked in their evil (and they do) have been placed on the devil's spiritual realm since the cross. It does not stop their movement or evil. It curtails their movement and influence. We are simply looking at a restriction of the devil's power. Christ stripped Satan of many of his possessions - one of these was the power of death.

You know, being stained and in bondage to sin is not the same as being literally chained up, hurled into the bottomless pit, and being sealed away from the physical world.


Amils view Revelation symbolically because it is saturated from start to finish in symbolism. Revelation 20 is no exception. Satan is not literally a dragon and at the same time a serpent, neither should we think that a spiritual being like the devil can be held with literal metal chains in a literal brick prison house. Amils take passages that are literal in their setting literal. We take passages that are symbolic in their setting symbolic.


Premils see things quite differently. We know how to differentiate the symbolism from the rest of the scriptures. Revelations is loaded with symbolism, but it doesn ot mean that the entire book is nothing more than symbolism. This is why I personally recommend that people would read the book first, and then decide for themselves.

wpm
Nov 25th 2008, 08:00 PM
You know, being stained and in bondage to sin is not the same as being literally chained up, hurled into the bottomless pit, and being sealed away from the physical world.


Isaiah 42:6 says, "I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles; To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house."

Were the Gentiles (before the cross) held in a literal prison house?

Psalms 68:6 prophesied of those in darkness in the Old Testament: “he bringeth out those which are bound with chains: but the rebellious dwell in a dry land.”

Were the Gentiles (before the cross) curtailed by literal chains?

Psalms 107:10-16 describes, “Such as sit in darkness and in the shadow of death, being bound in affliction and iron; Because they rebelled against the words of God, and contemned the counsel of the most High: Therefore he brought down their heart with labour; they fell down, and there was none to help. Then they cried unto the LORD in their trouble, and he saved them out of their distresses. He brought them out of darkness and the shadow of death, and brake their bands in sunder. Oh that men would praise the LORD for his goodness, and for his wonderful works to the children of men! For he hath broken the gates of brass, and cut the bars of iron in sunder.”

Were these chains literally iron?

Literal truth is often couched in symbolic language. In this case it represents spiritual bondage. Satan and his minions are also confined to this restriction since the cross. They have movement in their prison camp but they have a long chain on them to limit their power.

Martin Luther writes,

"Why should you fear? Why should you be afraid? Do you not know that the prince of this world has been judged? He is no lord, no prince any more. You have a different, a stronger Lord, Christ, who has overcome and bound him. Therefore let the prince and god of this world look sour, bare his teeth, make a great noise, threaten, and act in an unmannerly way; he can do no more than a bad dog on a chain, which may bark, run here and there, and tear at the chain. But because it is tied and you avoid it, it cannot bite you. So the devil acts toward every Christian. Therefore everything depends on this that we do not feel secure but continue in the fear of God and in prayer; then the chained dog cannot harm us. But this chained dog may at least frighten him who would be secure and go ahead without caution, although he may not come close enough to be bitten" (taken from the Ewald Plass, What Luther Says, (St. Louis: Concordia Publishing House, 1959), pp. 391-404).

The Cross was undoubtedly the actual place and time of the binding or restriction of Satan. The key (or authority) over death was perfectly secured at the cross. The result being that the devil can no longer resist the remarkable advance of the Gospel to “all nations” as his global influence was significantly restrained and at the cross.

John146
Nov 25th 2008, 10:25 PM
According to 1Peter, Satan was loose, like a roaring lion. This was written AFTER Christ's resurrection. So if he is free, then how is he bound? This makes the least sense. Either Satan is imprisoned or not, and seriously, I have not seen anyone show the point when the evil one was sealed away from the earth.

Again, until this point of contention is reconciled, I believe the debate can not progress.Scripture says that the fallen angels are in chains reserved for judgment (2 Peter 2:4, Jude 1:6) and yet we know full well that they are moving around and trying to deceive people. How do you reconcile that with your understanding of what it means for spiritual beings to be bound in chains?

John146
Nov 25th 2008, 10:35 PM
Hi , I understood all you are saying here fully from an earlier post.

Having a pre-mill perspective I believe that the books from Romans through to Revelation are currently applicable, because I believe we are in the same age as those believers to whom those books were written.

There are many warnings about the devil in the apostles letters, and I believe those warnings still apply in this age eg Eph 4:27 2 Tim 2:26 James 4:7 1 Peter 5:8 Rev 2:10 and many, many more verses.

If us Christians in this current age have to be so warned about the activities and influence of the devil, how much more so are the unbelievers of this age under the influence of the devil. The devil " prowls around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour".

So you are saying that as far as the gospel is concerned Satan is somehow bound during this period. I believe the teachings of the New testament warn us to keep the faith despite the attacks from Satan in order that we may fulfil our destiny to the nations here on earth. The New testament warns us and teaches us how to conduct spiritual warfare (in our thoughts) to overcome Satan and how to have our full armour on.But are you willing to acknowledge that a huge change took place in the world once Jesus came and the gospel went out into the world? What was the world like spiritually before Christ came? Was it not in almost complete spiritual darkness? How about after? This passage tells us:

Eph 2:11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; 12That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
13But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

Before Christ came, the world was in almost complete spiritual darkness. The truth of God's word could not penetrate into the Gentile nations because Satan wielded the power of death over them (Heb 2:14-15) and deceived them with false gods. Once Christ came, Satan no longer held the power of death and spiritual darkness. Christ brought His light into the world. He came to bind the strong man in order to spoil his goods and his house and He was successful, as evidenced by multitudes coming to Christ and establishing a relationship with God compared to how it was before Christ came when very, very few knew God.

third hero
Nov 26th 2008, 05:13 AM
Isaiah 42:6 says, "I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles; To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house."

Were the Gentiles (before the cross) held in a literal prison house?

Psalms 68:6 prophesied of those in darkness in the Old Testament: “he bringeth out those which are bound with chains: but the rebellious dwell in a dry land.”

Were the Gentiles (before the cross) curtailed by literal chains?

Psalms 107:10-16 describes, “Such as sit in darkness and in the shadow of death, being bound in affliction and iron; Because they rebelled against the words of God, and contemned the counsel of the most High: Therefore he brought down their heart with labour; they fell down, and there was none to help. Then they cried unto the LORD in their trouble, and he saved them out of their distresses. He brought them out of darkness and the shadow of death, and brake their bands in sunder. Oh that men would praise the LORD for his goodness, and for his wonderful works to the children of men! For he hath broken the gates of brass, and cut the bars of iron in sunder.”

Were these chains literally iron?

Literal truth is often couched in symbolic language. In this case it represents spiritual bondage. Satan and his minions are also confined to this restriction since the cross. They have movement in their prison camp but they have a long chain on them to limit their power.

Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken; _John 10:34-35

Are those who are given the Law gods? Or does the phrase, "you are gods" mean something else? Semantics often leads to hurt feelings, bad vibrations, and infractions. What do they have in common? No one learns a single thing.

If we use your model quoted above, then nothing is what it says it is. This means that when Jesus is called the Son of God, that he realy isn't, but He is merely a symbol of a human who has realched nervana. God really isn't God, but rather merely a trans-existential force that is in all and is a part of all. (Sounds familiar?). Nothing is literal and everything is symbolic of something else.

This is why I still prescribe to the premil model. It gives people the leverage to make up their own minds concerning what is written. In other words, I have the right to believe what the Bible says, without the need for someone to interpret it for me. No figuration required.


Martin Luther writes,

"Why should you fear? Why should you be afraid? Do you not know that the prince of this world has been judged? He is no lord, no prince any more. You have a different, a stronger Lord, Christ, who has overcome and bound him. Therefore let the prince and god of this world look sour, bare his teeth, make a great noise, threaten, and act in an unmannerly way; he can do no more than a bad dog on a chain, which may bark, run here and there, and tear at the chain. But because it is tied and you avoid it, it cannot bite you. So the devil acts toward every Christian. Therefore everything depends on this that we do not feel secure but continue in the fear of God and in prayer; then the chained dog cannot harm us. But this chained dog may at least frighten him who would be secure and go ahead without caution, although he may not come close enough to be bitten" (taken from the Ewald Plass, What Luther Says, (St. Louis: Concordia Publishing House, 1959), pp. 391-404).

I didn't know that Martin Luther was Lord Jesus. Again, if he was here, I would treat him like any other human, who is capable of fallacy, which history has proven on several accounts. (Not the least of which is bowing down to a Germanic government and mistranslate the OT).


The Cross was undoubtedly the actual place and time of the binding or restriction of Satan. The key (or authority) over death was perfectly secured at the cross. The result being that the devil can no longer resist the remarkable advance of the Gospel to “all nations” as his global influence was significantly restrained and at the cross.

How is the Cross the place and time when Satan was bound when according to Matrthew 12, Satan was "bound" while Lord Jesus walked the earth. Again, the logic in comparison to scripture does not line up.

This, again, is the reason why I trust only what is written in the bible, and not the fantasies of men. Men can make lillies look like sunflowers. I am not interested in the intellegence of men.

wpm
Nov 26th 2008, 05:55 AM
[/font][/size]

Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken; _John 10:34-35

Are those who are given the Law gods? Or does the phrase, "you are gods" mean something else? Semantics often leads to hurt feelings, bad vibrations, and infractions. What do they have in common? No one learns a single thing.

If we use your model quoted above, then nothing is what it says it is. This means that when Jesus is called the Son of God, that he realy isn't, but He is merely a symbol of a human who has realched nervana. God really isn't God, but rather merely a trans-existential force that is in all and is a part of all. (Sounds familiar?). Nothing is literal and everything is symbolic of something else.

This is why I still prescribe to the premil model. It gives people the leverage to make up their own minds concerning what is written. In other words, I have the right to believe what the Bible says, without the need for someone to interpret it for me. No figuration required.



I didn't know that Martin Luther was Lord Jesus. Again, if he was here, I would treat him like any other human, who is capable of fallacy, which history has proven on several accounts. (Not the least of which is bowing down to a Germanic government and mistranslate the OT).

[color=black][font=Arial]

How is the Cross the place and time when Satan was bound when according to Matrthew 12, Satan was "bound" while Lord Jesus walked the earth. Again, the logic in comparison to scripture does not line up.

This, again, is the reason why I trust only what is written in the bible, and not the fantasies of men. Men can make lillies look like sunflowers. I am not interested in the intellegence of men.

[SIZE=3]I refer you back to my last post that remains unaddressed. :)

DurbanDude
Nov 26th 2008, 07:43 AM
But are you willing to acknowledge that a huge change took place in the world once Jesus came and the gospel went out into the world? What was the world like spiritually before Christ came? Was it not in almost complete spiritual darkness? How about after? This passage tells us:

Yes I am definitely willing to acknowledge this. God chose to reveal himself mainly through the Jews, God's focus was on the Jews, now on the nations, simple as that. To make a doctrine about the binding of Satan just because we know that God's focus has changed is not enough evidence. Yes we are in a completely new era, that is why we have the NewTestament , God's word to teach us about this current age after the crucifixion when we have the Holy Spirit, and are renewed and have eternal life through salvation through the cross. The New testament shows that Satan is very evident and warns us to be careful. Satan is not spiritually bound, because we are taught that there is a spiritual war going on , Satan is spiritually attacking us. The victory of the cross gives the church victory, when we apply our faith correctly, and in this way the gospel is overcoming.

DurbanDude
Nov 26th 2008, 08:06 AM
I think you understand this binding as physical. However, Satan is not a physical being, therefore he doesn't need to be physically bound. He is a spiritual being.




Not at all! If Satan is spiritually bound I am sure his influence would have somehow changed from Old Testament to New testament , yet the bible warns of the spiritual attacks of Satan in the New Testament , these attacks are not physical at all. So I do not see Satan as spiritually bound at all if he is spiritually at warfare with us. The only difference in the doctrine of the way Satan has spiritual influence on earth before the crucifixion and after the crucifixion is the way in which we are taught to overcome Satan , and our authority over Satan as the church. This is a real authority because of the cross, and I believe we bind and restrict Satan's influence in our lives daily by taking charge of our thought patterns through the assistance of the Holy Spirit.

DIZZY
Nov 26th 2008, 10:45 AM
To me the Bible says Satan is not bound he walks the earth.

1 Peter 5:5-11
5 Likewise you younger people, submit yourselves to your elders. Yes, all of you be submissive to one another, and be clothed with humility, for


“ God resists the proud,
But gives grace to the humble.”

6 Therefore humble yourselves under the mighty hand of God, that He may exalt you in due time, 7 casting all your care upon Him, for He cares for you.
8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil walks about like a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour. 9 Resist him, steadfast in the faith, knowing that the same sufferings are experienced by your brotherhood in the world. 10 But may the God of all grace, who called us to His eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after you have suffered a while, perfect, establish, strengthen, and settle you. 11 To Him be the glory and the dominion forever and ever. Amen.

James 4:7 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=66&chapter=4&verse=7&version=50&context=verse)
Therefore submit to God. Resist the devil and he will flee from you.

The Devil roams about seeking whom he may devour, he can't do that if he is bound and in prison. The bible tells us to resist the Devil. If the Devil is bound why do we need to resist him?

Revelation 12:1-17
1And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars: 2And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered. 3And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads. 4And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born. 5And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne. 6And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days. 7And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, 8And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. 9And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. 10And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. 11And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. 12Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time. 13And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child. 14And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent. 15And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood. 16And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth. 17And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Satan is not held in chains in heaven or in the bottomless pit. The Bible says he roams about the earth seeking whom he may devour and he enters heaven continually to accuse the brethren before Gods throne.

At the mid way point of the tribulation we find Satan and Michael the arch angel at war. Satan and his angels are cast out of heaven, they no longer have access to heaven they are earth bound.

Satan is angry and he goes after Israel but he can't touch her because God is pretecting her out in the wilderness, where He provided a place for her.

Satan can't touch her so he goes after her offspring, the 144,000 but they can't be touched either, he tries to kill the two witnesses but he can't, God has appointed their time, and he turns on those who don't take the mark of the beast who have been saved by the testimony of the 144,000 and the two witnesses, let's not forget the angels flying threw the air with the eternal gospel message.

So Satan kills those who will not worship him. Satan is working and has been working since the first day he was cast down to the earth, and he will continue to work his
mischief until he is bound and thrown into the bottomless pit for a thousand years.

Satan doesn't get thrown into the pit until after the false prophet and the beast are cast into the lake of fire.

Revelation 19:17-21
17 Then I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the birds that fly in the midst of heaven, “Come and gather together for the supper of the great God, 18 that you may eat the flesh of kings, the flesh of captains, the flesh of mighty men, the flesh of horses and of those who sit on them, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, both small and great.”
19 And I saw the beast, the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against Him who sat on the horse and against His army. 20 Then the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who worked signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. These two were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone. 21 And the rest were killed with the sword which proceeded from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse. And all the birds were filled with their flesh.

After John sees the angel in Rev 19:17 John then sees the angel in Rev 20 with a great chain in his hand.

Revelation 20:
1 Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, having the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. 2 He laid hold of the dragon, that serpent of old, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years; 3 and he cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal on him, so that he should deceive the nations no more till the thousand years were finished. But after these things he must be released for a little while.

So after the false prophet and the beast are cast into the lake of fire, Satan is then bound for the thousand years while Christ reigns on the earth with all the heavenly saints that have returned with Him.
so:
1 Peter 5:8 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=67&chapter=5&verse=8&version=50&context=verse)
Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil walks about like a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour.

DIZZY
Nov 26th 2008, 11:05 AM
But are you willing to acknowledge that a huge change took place in the world once Jesus came and the gospel went out into the world? What was the world like spiritually before Christ came? Was it not in almost complete spiritual darkness? How about after? This passage tells us:

Eph 2:11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; 12That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
13But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

Before Christ came, the world was in almost complete spiritual darkness. The truth of God's word could not penetrate into the Gentile nations because Satan wielded the power of death over them (Heb 2:14-15) and deceived them with false gods. Once Christ came, Satan no longer held the power of death and spiritual darkness. Christ brought His light into the world. He came to bind the strong man in order to spoil his goods and his house and He was successful, as evidenced by multitudes coming to Christ and establishing a relationship with God compared to how it was before Christ came when very, very few knew God.


Hi John146,
Are we not at the same place as the human race was before Christ came. Very few know God and they don't want to know Him.

The world is becoming darker and darker with each generation. The wickedness of the world is growing at a rapid pass and our governments don't seem to follow Gods laws anymore. They allow abortion, prostitution, a crimanal can sue a victim of their crime if he gets hurt robbing you. We are living in dark times at the moment.

Yes Jesus is the light of the world, but He only lights the hearts of those He has entered.

John 3:19 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=50&chapter=3&verse=19&version=50&context=verse)
And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

Perpetua
Nov 26th 2008, 02:24 PM
Satan is not bound today, not the way described in Revelation 20.

Regarding the idea that Satan is bound and cannot hinder the spread of the gospel in this age: the biblical accounts clearly tell us that it is God who is in control of where the gospel does and does not go; this has nothing to do with Satan being bound or not bound. Luke describes in Acts where the apostle Paul attempted to go east into Asia, to Bithynia, but "the spirit of Jesus" would not allow them to; immediately afterwards Paul received a vision that directed him westward instead -- and interestingly enough that is the direction the gospel has traveled ever since. God has always been in control of this matter, determining from that very starting point which geographic regions would be allowed to hear the gospel, and also which parts of the world would not, at a given time, hear the gospel.

See the following link, a good article that highlights many problems with the idea of Satan being bound today:

http://www.biblebb.com/files/issatanbound.htm

A very brief overview of its points:
1) The approach to interpreting Revelation known as "progressive parallelism is highly suspect. The text gives no such indicators, and Revelation 20 begins with a conjunction word meaning "next" or "and" -- that is, it follows immediately after Revelation 19.

2) The amillennial view does not adequately do justice to the language of Revelation 20:1-3
"According to the text, Satan is "bound" with a "great chain" (vv.1-2) and thrown into the "abyss" that is "shut" and "sealed" for a thousand years (v. 3). This abyss acts as a "prison" (v. 7) until the thousand years are completed. The acts of binding, throwing, shutting and sealing indicate that Satan's activities are completely finished."

3) The amillennial view conflicts with the New Testament's depiction of Satan's activities in the present age. Numerous scriptures clearly show us that Satan is presently active, with strong descriptions such as: "prowls about," "whom he may devour," "thwarting", against whom we must put on the whole armor of God, and for who "the whole world lies in" his power. 2 Corinthians 4:4, 1 Peter 5:8, Acts 5:3, 1 Thess. 2:18, Ephesians 6:10-19, 1 John 5:19.
As for Matthew 12:29 -- here Jesus did not say that Satan was bound yet. Instead he stated that in order for kingdom conditions to exist on the earth, Satan must first be bound.
"As Toussaint says: By this statement He [Jesus] previews John the Apostle's discussion in Revelation 20. Jesus does not say He has bound Satan or is even in the process of doing so. He simply sets the principle before the Pharisees. His works testify to His ability to bind Satan, and therefore they attest His power to establish the kingdom."

David Taylor
Nov 26th 2008, 02:44 PM
The amillennial view conflicts with the New Testament's depiction of Satan's activities in the present age. Numerous scriptures clearly show us that Satan is presently active

Sounds like you understanding of the amillennial view is incomplete and incorrect.

No amillennialist I've ever met would sat that Satan is not presently active..you know, the roaming lion going to and fro stuff.

Amillennialists will tell you just the opposite of what you say above; that Satan is active and is still roaming.

Where you're misunderstanding the Amill view, is your misunderstanding of the 'bound' passage from Revelation 20 from an Amill perspective.

Let me re-quote the pertinent part, that Premillennialists always misunderstand and misapply with the Amill view.

Rev 20:2 "And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more"

The important part to understanding the Amill interpretation is as follows:

1) a thousand years is understood as symbolic of the intra-advent period; and we can know this because of how Satan was bound

2) Skipping the middle stuff, the crux of the verse boils down to this:
"Satan, and bound him...that he should deceive the nations no more"

This doesn't say Satan won't roam. This doesn't say Satan won't devour.

Deceive the nations...more specifically, "nations" is from the greek word "ethnos"; which is also used in the NT interchangeably with "gentiles".

"Satan bound, not to deceive the nations/gentiles no more."

That is what Amill believes has happened.

Now to explain why?

Yes Satan still devours individuals. (Rev 20 isn't speaking of complete binding from deceiving all indivuals...JUST the Gentile/nations)

Now, why would Amill believe this?

1) Because history has born this out to be the present intra/advent period.

and

2) The Premill kindgom as it is defined, is filled with more unbelievers and rebels within it than any age prior to it; so it doesn't qualify as a time when all people are not deceived from Satan devouring them as a lion...because at the end of it; there are so many wicked rebels within the Earthly kingdom reign that they are numbered as the sands of the sea.

So how has history explained the binding of the gentiles/nations in the way Amill interprets it?

Prior to Calvary, the OT scriptures tell us the gentiles/nations were all heathen and pagan and following after idols and false god. They didn't follow the true God. Except for a handful of specific individuals one here, another there, they were all wicked and deceived by satan.

The gentiles/nations prior to Calvary were in darkness. They were deceived.

Since Calvary however, the gentiles, those who were in the dark have seen a great light, in them the daystar has sprung!

Out of the gentiles/nations of the world for the last 20 centuries have come millions if not billions into the true light of Christ, and Satan could no longer deceive them!

Satan was whipped at Calvary, and ever since then has not anymore been able to deceive all the gentiles/nations like he did before, which was nearly 100%.

The fruit of Calvary changed soul-winning production amongst the gentiles/nations from close to 0% beforehand, to millions and billions out of all tongues, tribes, and nations.

Satan has been bound from deceiving the gentiles/nations....and history shows us this...it's the fruit of the GREAT COMMISSION!

Christians live throughout Eurpose, Asia, Africa, North and South America....by the untold masses and multitudes...where before Satan was bound; the Gentiles/nations in those continents were all deceived and blinded and in darkness.

That's the difference.

In Revelation 20, 'a thousand' is not literal (as most of the descriptions and images in Revelation are not literal); but is figuratively symbolic of 'a long, unspecified amount" of time...the intra-advent period.

wpm
Nov 26th 2008, 04:37 PM
Not at all! If Satan is spiritually bound I am sure his influence would have somehow changed from Old Testament to New testament , yet the bible warns of the spiritual attacks of Satan in the New Testament , these attacks are not physical at all. So I do not see Satan as spiritually bound at all if he is spiritually at warfare with us. The only difference in the doctrine of the way Satan has spiritual influence on earth before the crucifixion and after the crucifixion is the way in which we are taught to overcome Satan , and our authority over Satan as the church. This is a real authority because of the cross, and I believe we bind and restrict Satan's influence in our lives daily by taking charge of our thought patterns through the assistance of the Holy Spirit.

It is the issue or idea that Satan is currently bound that some struggle with, yet, there is plenty of evidence that the life, death and resurrection of Christ had a spiritually binding affect upon the kingdom of darkness - especially in regard to the Gentiles (which is ultimately the subject at stake in Rev 20). The binding actually relates to the enlightenment of the Gentiles. Interestingly (or coincidently) the victory of Christ released the widespread spread of truth and deliverance to the heathen nations. All sat in darkness before the cross, now they are privileged to have an equal opportunity at salvation. The binding of Satan changed the Gospel emphasis from "the nation" to "the nations." For 2,000 yrs countless millions have come to a knowledge of truth and the Saviour. That only happened after the binding (or restraining) of Satan through the powerful work and ministry of Christ.

Prisoners that are bound are commonly recognised to have movement and influence (normally for evil), however, it is normally within carefully defined borders. Satan is no different today. He cannot do what he wants. He is restrained and injured by the glorious advance of the true Gospel throughout the nations.

wpm
Nov 26th 2008, 04:51 PM
To me the Bible says Satan is not bound he walks the earth.

1 Peter 5:5-11
5 Likewise you younger people, submit yourselves to your elders. Yes, all of you be submissive to one another, and be clothed with humility, for


“ God resists the proud,
But gives grace to the humble.”

6 Therefore humble yourselves under the mighty hand of God, that He may exalt you in due time, 7 casting all your care upon Him, for He cares for you.
8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil walks about like a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour. 9 Resist him, steadfast in the faith, knowing that the same sufferings are experienced by your brotherhood in the world. 10 But may the God of all grace, who called us to His eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after you have suffered a while, perfect, establish, strengthen, and settle you. 11 To Him be the glory and the dominion forever and ever. Amen.

James 4:7 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=66&chapter=4&verse=7&version=50&context=verse)
Therefore submit to God. Resist the devil and he will flee from you.

The Devil roams about seeking whom he may devour, he can't do that if he is bound and in prison. The bible tells us to resist the Devil. If the Devil is bound why do we need to resist him?

Revelation 12:1-17
1And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars: 2And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered. 3And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads. 4And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born. 5And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne. 6And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days. 7And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, 8And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. 9And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. 10And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. 11And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. 12Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time. 13And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child. 14And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent. 15And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood. 16And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth. 17And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Satan is not held in chains in heaven or in the bottomless pit. The Bible says he roams about the earth seeking whom he may devour and he enters heaven continually to accuse the brethren before Gods throne.

At the mid way point of the tribulation we find Satan and Michael the arch angel at war. Satan and his angels are cast out of heaven, they no longer have access to heaven they are earth bound.

Satan is angry and he goes after Israel but he can't touch her because God is pretecting her out in the wilderness, where He provided a place for her.

Satan can't touch her so he goes after her offspring, the 144,000 but they can't be touched either, he tries to kill the two witnesses but he can't, God has appointed their time, and he turns on those who don't take the mark of the beast who have been saved by the testimony of the 144,000 and the two witnesses, let's not forget the angels flying threw the air with the eternal gospel message.

So Satan kills those who will not worship him. Satan is working and has been working since the first day he was cast down to the earth, and he will continue to work his
mischief until he is bound and thrown into the bottomless pit for a thousand years.

Satan doesn't get thrown into the pit until after the false prophet and the beast are cast into the lake of fire.

Revelation 19:17-21
17 Then I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the birds that fly in the midst of heaven, “Come and gather together for the supper of the great God, 18 that you may eat the flesh of kings, the flesh of captains, the flesh of mighty men, the flesh of horses and of those who sit on them, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, both small and great.”
19 And I saw the beast, the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against Him who sat on the horse and against His army. 20 Then the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who worked signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. These two were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone. 21 And the rest were killed with the sword which proceeded from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse. And all the birds were filled with their flesh.

After John sees the angel in Rev 19:17 John then sees the angel in Rev 20 with a great chain in his hand.

Revelation 20:
1 Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, having the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. 2 He laid hold of the dragon, that serpent of old, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years; 3 and he cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal on him, so that he should deceive the nations no more till the thousand years were finished. But after these things he must be released for a little while.

So after the false prophet and the beast are cast into the lake of fire, Satan is then bound for the thousand years while Christ reigns on the earth with all the heavenly saints that have returned with Him.
so:
1 Peter 5:8 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=67&chapter=5&verse=8&version=50&context=verse)
Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil walks about like a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour.


As I keep saying, and what many Premils miss, binding in Scripture did not denote immobility. Many Premils quote 1 Peter 5:8,“Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour” yet, they fail to complete the teaching of the passage or grasp the power the believer posses. The very next verse (1 Peter 5:9 affirms,“whom resist stedfast in the faith.” We are part of a spiritual resistance movement against him.

While Satan resists the Church throughout the nations, the Church throughout the nations now resists Satan. Everything the devil says, we resist; everything the devil does, we resist. Through the work of the Cross and in the power of the Holy Spirit, the Church clearly possesses the power and capability to curtail and damage the devil’s strong power and influence, or why would God in any way instruct His people to “resist stedfast” that great foe

In fact, James 4:7 tells us what happens when you do resist, “Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.” This is a well-tested principle that the saints of old have proved down through the years. You resist, he must flee. When the devil plants a temptation, a doubt or a fear, you simply have to resist it, whereupon Satan must get his boots on and run. This word “flee” in the original is the Greek word pheugo. It means to escape, flee away or vanish. It gives the idea of a worried foe frantically trying to get away from his captor. Now think about it. When you resist, he must disappear. The conflict today for the Church is not an earthly battle to possess an earthly territory but a spiritual battle to posses spiritual territory.

Some people speak so highly of the devil's power they render Christ and His body – the Church – as the impotent party in the conflict between good and evil and Satan and his minions as the dominant party. The truth is: every true blood-bought child of the Lord has “overcome” the devil, and is overcoming the devil as they spread the good news of the kingdom to a deluded world. For the obedient believer standing upon the promises of God and using it to confront Satan, Scripture says in 1 John 2:14, “ye are strong, and the word of God abideth in you, and ye have overcome the wicked one.”

The people of God here are expressly said to have “overcome the wicked one.” They have an inner strength that enables them to overcome Satan; that strength is Jesus. Moreover, that revelation of Christ comes through the fact that “the word of God abideth in” them. 1 John 5:4-5 further states, “For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith. Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

The whole tenure of this passage indicates conflict – conflict with a foe that is defeated. This passage is saturated in victory. The negativity surrounding the Premillennial view of the conflict between light and darkness is unfortunate.

1 John 4:4 says, “Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

Satan is a little devil in regard to our big God.

quiet dove
Nov 26th 2008, 08:10 PM
As I keep saying, and what many Premils miss, binding in Scripture did not denote immobility. Many Premils quote 1 Peter 5:8,“Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour” yet, they fail to complete the teaching of the passage or grasp the power the believer posses. The very next verse (1 Peter 5:9 affirms,“whom resist stedfast in the faith.” We are part of a spiritual resistance movement against him.

They don't forget it, they know that if Satan were bound as amil says, there would be no worry of resisting him, he would be bound and not said to be "as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking"

Pre mil states that those who are in Christ are freed from bondage, those outside of Christ are still in bondage. That is not a matter of Satan being bound or not being bound, through the Cross, we are freed from Satan, he is not bound.



While Satan resists the Church throughout the nations, the Church throughout the nations now resists Satan. Everything the devil says, we resist; everything the devil does, we resist. Through the work of the Cross and in the power of the Holy Spirit, the Church clearly possesses the power and capability to curtail and damage the devil’s strong power and influence, or why would God in any way instruct His people to “resist stedfast” that great foeHow does Satan resist the Church? He is out to destroy all he can.



In fact, James 4:7 tells us what happens when you do resist,
“Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.” This is a well-tested principle that the saints of old have proved down through the years. You resist, he must flee. When the devil plants a temptation, a doubt or a fear, you simply have to resist it, whereupon Satan must get his boots on and run. This word “flee” in the original is the Greek word pheugo. It means to escape, flee away or vanish. It gives the idea of a worried foe frantically trying to get away from his captor. Now think about it. When you resist, he must disappear. The conflict today for the Church is not an earthly battle to possess an earthly territory but a spiritual battle to posses spiritual territory.

If he is bound, how does he plant temptation in the first place? If he is bound, bound from what? He still tells lies, he still holds the lost in bondage, he still puts forth great effort in hindering the Gospel, he still is as a lion seeking whom he may destroy?



Some people speak so highly of the devil's power they render Christ and His body – the Church – as the impotent party in the conflict between good and evil and Satan and his minions as the dominant party. The truth is: every true blood-bought child of the Lord has “overcome” the devil, and is overcoming the devil as they spread the good news of the kingdom to a deluded world. For the obedient believer standing upon the promises of God and using it to confront Satan, Scripture says in 1 John 2:14,
“ye are strong, and the word of God abideth in you, and ye have overcome the wicked one.”No one is under estimating Christ, however, underestimating the Adversary could prove to be rather dangerous. I agree, through Christ we can overcome the Adversary, but underestimating him only leave us vulnerable, realizing his capability causes us to realize our capability in Christ, to see that Christ has freed us from him.



The people of God here are expressly said to have “overcome the wicked one.” They have an inner strength that enables them to overcome Satan; that strength is Jesus. Moreover, that revelation of Christ comes through the fact that “the word of God abideth in” them. 1 John 5:4-5 further states, “For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith. Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?


The whole tenure of this passage indicates conflict – conflict with a foe that is defeated. This passage is saturated in victory. The negativity surrounding the Premillennial view of the conflict between light and darkness is unfortunate. Pre mil is not negative towards our victory in Christ, quite the contrary, pre mil recongizes the danger of an dangerous Adversary that is seeking who he may destroy and therefore is very much depending on Christ to overcome. Nothing negative or unfortunate about that.



1 John 4:4 says,
“Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world. Yes, we have over come he who is in the world, not he who is bound, but we who are freed through Christ Jesus have overcome he who is in the world, loose, in the world, seeking whom he may devour.


Satan is a little devil in regard to our big God.

True, but that does not make him bound. It makes us free. I agree 100% that he is a defeated enemy and through Christ we have overcome, and can resist him. But to live in the faith of knowing we can defeat an active on the loose adversary through Christ Jesus is anything but unfortunate or negative, it is the power of God by the indwelling Spirit to victory. Thats not negative or unfortunate as you imply.

wpm
Nov 26th 2008, 08:47 PM
They don't forget it, they know that if Satan were bound as amil says, there would be no worry of resisting him, he would be bound and not said to be "as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking"

Pre mil states that those who are in Christ are freed from bondage, those outside of Christ are still in bondage. That is not a matter of Satan being bound or not being bound, through the Cross, we are freed from Satan, he is not bound.

How does Satan resist the Church? He is out to destroy all he can.



If he is bound, how does he plant temptation in the first place? If he is bound, bound from what? He still tells lies, he still holds the lost in bondage, he still puts forth great effort in hindering the Gospel, he still is as a lion seeking whom he may destroy?

No one is under estimating Christ, however, underestimating the Adversary could prove to be rather dangerous. I agree, through Christ we can overcome the Adversary, but underestimating him only leave us vulnerable, realizing his capability causes us to realize our capability in Christ, to see that Christ has freed us from him.

Pre mil is not negative towards our victory in Christ, quite the contrary, pre mil recongizes the danger of an dangerous Adversary that is seeking who he may destroy and therefore is very much depending on Christ to overcome. Nothing negative or unfortunate about that.

Yes, we have over come he who is in the world, not he who is bound, but we who are freed through Christ Jesus have overcome he who is in the world, loose, in the world, seeking whom he may devour.



True, but that does not make him bound. It makes us free. I agree 100% that he is a defeated enemy and through Christ we have overcome, and can resist him. But to live in the faith of knowing we can defeat an active on the loose adversary through Christ Jesus is anything but unfortunate or negative, it is the power of God by the indwelling Spirit to victory. Thats not negative or unfortunate as you imply.

I believe Premils import a lot into one simple phrase that is simply not there. Moreover, they cannot back this thousand yrs binding of Satan up after the Lord's return by any other Scripture. This shows it is in an uncorroborative concept. Plerase answer this:

Were the Gentile nations in darkness before the cross?

Was there any nation that turned to God?

The closest favout I can see is the one lone Gentile city of Ninevah.

wpm
Nov 26th 2008, 08:49 PM
They don't forget it, they know that if Satan were bound as amil says, there would be no worry of resisting him, he would be bound and not said to be "as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking"

Pre mil states that those who are in Christ are freed from bondage, those outside of Christ are still in bondage. That is not a matter of Satan being bound or not being bound, through the Cross, we are freed from Satan, he is not bound.

How does Satan resist the Church? He is out to destroy all he can.



If he is bound, how does he plant temptation in the first place? If he is bound, bound from what? He still tells lies, he still holds the lost in bondage, he still puts forth great effort in hindering the Gospel, he still is as a lion seeking whom he may destroy?

No one is under estimating Christ, however, underestimating the Adversary could prove to be rather dangerous. I agree, through Christ we can overcome the Adversary, but underestimating him only leave us vulnerable, realizing his capability causes us to realize our capability in Christ, to see that Christ has freed us from him.

Pre mil is not negative towards our victory in Christ, quite the contrary, pre mil recongizes the danger of an dangerous Adversary that is seeking who he may destroy and therefore is very much depending on Christ to overcome. Nothing negative or unfortunate about that.

Yes, we have over come he who is in the world, not he who is bound, but we who are freed through Christ Jesus have overcome he who is in the world, loose, in the world, seeking whom he may devour.



True, but that does not make him bound. It makes us free. I agree 100% that he is a defeated enemy and through Christ we have overcome, and can resist him. But to live in the faith of knowing we can defeat an active on the loose adversary through Christ Jesus is anything but unfortunate or negative, it is the power of God by the indwelling Spirit to victory. Thats not negative or unfortunate as you imply.

I believe the testimony and actions of Christ disprove your scepticsim re the current binding of Satan. Matthew 12:22-29 records, “Then was brought unto him one possessed with a devil, blind, and dumb: and he healed him, insomuch that the blind and dumb both spake and saw. And all the people were amazed, and said, Is not this the son of David? But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, This fellow doth not cast out devils, but by Beelzebub the prince of the devils. And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand: And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand? And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your children cast them out? therefore they shall be your judges. But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you. Or else how can one enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind(or) deo(Strong’s 1210) the strong man? And then he will spoil his house.”

The Lord identifies the casting out of devils and the deliverance of souls with the binding of the strong man. He in turn presents this as proof that Satan is curbed through the presence and victorious function of the kingdom of God. Christ was here specifically referring to Satan (the strong man) and his demonic kingdom, and expressly connects his binding with the manifestation of the kingdom of God during His earthly ministry. The subjugating of devils was proof of the spiritual restraint of the evil one. Satan could not prevent this. Satan could not overcome those who had been rescued by Christ.

Jesus said in the corresponding passage in Luke 11:20-22,“if I with the finger of God cast out devils, no doubt the kingdom of God is come upon you. When a strong man armed keepeth his palace, his goods are in peace: But when a stronger than he shall come upon him, and overcome him, he taketh from him all his armour wherein he trusted, and divideth his spoils.”

Here, Christ highlights the Sovereign power of the kingdom of God and reveals how the “strong man” – Satan – and his kingdom of devils can only be defeated by One that is stronger than them, namely Himself – the Son of God. As we examine the gospels we discover, Satan was stripped everywhere that Christ confronted him. The Lord entered the devil’s house and took authority over him and spoilt His goods. Previously, Satan's grip on the nations was so strong and so embedded that the truth of God's Word could not penetrate through. The devil overwhelmingly controlled the Gentile nations.

Christ said: “When a strong man armed keepeth his palace, his goods are in peace.”This was a direct reference to the unchallenged power of Satan over the nations in the Old Testament. The vast territory of the Gentile nations was under his evil control. He governed the nations at will and operated in an unmolested environment – thus “his goods” were said to be “in peace.”

Satan’s wicked grip over the nations was loosened by the life, death and resurrection of Christ. Many millions were liberated by His message of hope and liberation. In fact, if anything was representative of Christ’s ministry it was the binding of the works of darkness and the deliverance of the afflicted. Christ defeated the power of Satan and all his minions with His sinless life, His vicarious death and His victorious resurrection and therefore wholly fulfilled His earthly assignment. The advance of the kingdom of God therefore has seen the pushing back of the devil’s frontline throughout the nations. It is not that he can’t still create havoc and deceive people; it is that he can’t hinder the triumphant advance of the Gospel throughout the world.

John146
Nov 26th 2008, 09:42 PM
20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more

I look at the world today and I look at this verse and realise why amillenialists need to explain their views so much.Of course, premils have to explain their views equally as much, if not more. They don't accept passages like John 5:28-29, 1 Corinthians 15:23-24, Matthew 13:36-43, Matthew 25:31-46, 2 Peter 3:10-13 and others at face value so they have to insert a thousand year earthly kingdom into these passages when it isn't there and doesn't have room for it.

John146
Nov 26th 2008, 09:45 PM
Hi John146,
Are we not at the same place as the human race was before Christ came. Very few know God and they don't want to know Him.

The world is becoming darker and darker with each generation. The wickedness of the world is growing at a rapid pass and our governments don't seem to follow Gods laws anymore. They allow abortion, prostitution, a crimanal can sue a victim of their crime if he gets hurt robbing you. We are living in dark times at the moment.

Yes Jesus is the light of the world, but He only lights the hearts of those He has entered.

John 3:19 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=50&chapter=3&verse=19&version=50&context=verse)
And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.We may very well be headed that way, although I think you are underestimating just how bad it was at that time. But, remember, amils believe Satan is loosed before Christ returns, so this isn't really a problem for our doctrine. Perhaps he has already been loosed. What boggles my mind is when people underestimate the impact that the gospel of Christ made on the world after Christ came as if it didn't make a huge impact. But it did. Satan was defeated at the cross and suffered a major blow that day. That can't be ignored. The way was made for the gospel to penetrate into the Gentile nations who were almost completely in spiritual darkness before then.

We should not underestimate the significance of passages like these:

Heb 2
14Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; 15And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

1 John 3:8
He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

Col 2
14Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
15And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.

John146
Nov 26th 2008, 10:01 PM
As I keep saying, and what many Premils miss, binding in Scripture did not denote immobility. Many Premils quote 1 Peter 5:8,“Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour” yet, they fail to complete the teaching of the passage or grasp the power the believer posses. The very next verse (1 Peter 5:9 affirms,“whom resist stedfast in the faith.” We are part of a spiritual resistance movement against him.

While Satan resists the Church throughout the nations, the Church throughout the nations now resists Satan. Everything the devil says, we resist; everything the devil does, we resist. Through the work of the Cross and in the power of the Holy Spirit, the Church clearly possesses the power and capability to curtail and damage the devil’s strong power and influence, or why would God in any way instruct His people to “resist stedfast” that great foe

In fact, James 4:7 tells us what happens when you do resist, “Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.” This is a well-tested principle that the saints of old have proved down through the years. You resist, he must flee. When the devil plants a temptation, a doubt or a fear, you simply have to resist it, whereupon Satan must get his boots on and run. This word “flee” in the original is the Greek word pheugo. It means to escape, flee away or vanish. It gives the idea of a worried foe frantically trying to get away from his captor. Now think about it. When you resist, he must disappear. The conflict today for the Church is not an earthly battle to possess an earthly territory but a spiritual battle to posses spiritual territory.

Some people speak so highly of the devil's power they render Christ and His body – the Church – as the impotent party in the conflict between good and evil and Satan and his minions as the dominant party. The truth is: every true blood-bought child of the Lord has “overcome” the devil, and is overcoming the devil as they spread the good news of the kingdom to a deluded world. For the obedient believer standing upon the promises of God and using it to confront Satan, Scripture says in 1 John 2:14, “ye are strong, and the word of God abideth in you, and ye have overcome the wicked one.”

The people of God here are expressly said to have “overcome the wicked one.” They have an inner strength that enables them to overcome Satan; that strength is Jesus. Moreover, that revelation of Christ comes through the fact that “the word of God abideth in” them. 1 John 5:4-5 further states, “For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith. Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

The whole tenure of this passage indicates conflict – conflict with a foe that is defeated. This passage is saturated in victory. The negativity surrounding the Premillennial view of the conflict between light and darkness is unfortunate.

1 John 4:4 says, “Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

Satan is a little devil in regard to our big God. Great post, Paul. Well said. Clearly, believers did not have this kind of power over the devil at their disposal at all times in the OT days but now we have access to that power at any time. Satan isn't afraid of us at all, but he's afraid of the One who lives in us and works through us. While he is bound, Satan is powerless to stop the spread of the gospel because, as 1 John 4:4 says, "greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.".

quiet dove
Nov 27th 2008, 01:09 AM
Of course, premils have to explain their views equally as much, if not more. They don't accept passages like John 5:28-29, 1 Corinthians 15:23-24, Matthew 13:36-43, Matthew 25:31-46, 2 Peter 3:10-13 and others at face value so they have to insert a thousand year earthly kingdom into these passages when it isn't there and doesn't have room for it.

Dont accept them?

third hero
Nov 27th 2008, 05:18 AM
Not at all! If Satan is spiritually bound I am sure his influence would have somehow changed from Old Testament to New testament , yet the bible warns of the spiritual attacks of Satan in the New Testament , these attacks are not physical at all. So I do not see Satan as spiritually bound at all if he is spiritually at warfare with us. The only difference in the doctrine of the way Satan has spiritual influence on earth before the crucifixion and after the crucifixion is the way in which we are taught to overcome Satan , and our authority over Satan as the church. This is a real authority because of the cross, and I believe we bind and restrict Satan's influence in our lives daily by taking charge of our thought patterns through the assistance of the Holy Spirit.

I will add one sentence to your explanation durbandude. And here it is.

We bind Satan daily with the same power that Lord Jesus did once He received the Holy Spirit at His baptism, the same power He used while He walked the earth, before He gave up His life at the Cross.

third hero
Nov 27th 2008, 05:29 AM
I believe Premils import a lot into one simple phrase that is simply not there. Moreover, they cannot back this thousand yrs binding of Satan up after the Lord's return by any other Scripture. This shows it is in an uncorroborative concept. Plerase answer this:

Were the Gentile nations in darkness before the cross?

Was there any nation that turned to God?

The closest favout I can see is the one lone Gentile city of Ninevah.

Are you kidding me? Tell me, what is the 1000 years?

Premil answer-the period in time where Satan is imprisoned and sealed away from the earth. (Revelation 20:1-3, 7)

Amil answer- E=MC2 (Everything is relative)

We, the premil, do not need to incorporate ythings that are extrabiblical in order to explain the scripture. Some of us can actually allow the scriptues to speak for themselves.

third hero
Nov 27th 2008, 05:39 AM
Of course, premils have to explain their views equally as much, if not more. They don't accept passages like John 5:28-29, 1 Corinthians 15:23-24, Matthew 13:36-43, Matthew 25:31-46, 2 Peter 3:10-13 and others at face value so they have to insert a thousand year earthly kingdom into these passages when it isn't there and doesn't have room for it.

Really? Premils inserted Revelation 20:1-15? (That is the source of the 1000 year gap, you do realize this right?)

I have used 1Corinthians 15:23-26 countless times to explain the necessity for the Lord to reign over this earth before destroying it. Matthew 13 does not give people a blank check on what they can classify as relative, and the Amils have the greatest difficulty explaining how Jesus is not judging the nations after his return when it clearly and plainly says that He does in Matthew 25:31.

As for 1Peter3:10, the Amils have great difficulty explaining why those verses aren't directly linked to 1Corinthians 15:24-26, and as far as John 5 is concerned, we hang our hats on Revelation 20:10-15.

BTW, Jesus stopped speaking in parables in John 15.

And so, it would seem as though the Amil brand has much to explain for, and their explanations have to come from extrabiblical sources. This I can not accept, and I suspect that there are many others that do not accept it either. Like I have stated in other threads, if it doesn't make sense, it's not true.

third hero
Nov 27th 2008, 05:40 AM
Dont accept them?

The question that I think we should raise is why the Amils do not accept Revelation 19-20 as written?

quiet dove
Nov 27th 2008, 06:06 AM
I am realizing that the OP is no longer even participating in the thread and since we already know each others views on this, lets just let it rest for a bit, nothing personal, I just realized the OP was no longer part of the thread anyway.