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vinsight4u8
Nov 22nd 2008, 03:40 PM
Do you know that Daniel 8 reveals to us from what direction the pleasant place will be attacked?

The little horn will head in three directions - east - south - and toward the pleasant land.
So- we know then that Israel as the pleasant land must be in either the west or the north.

ac attacks Irael
plus he attacks to his south and his east

so - How about this scenario?

Med
Sea ///Israel<......ac.....>goes east some
..............heads south.....................

Since Israel is being used as a direction in Daniel 8 as to the little horn goes toward the pleasant [land] - we can use our other given clues to know that the little horn comes from the east to attack Israel.

He is not from Israel - or from the south area of Israel -he is going to come from a nation off in the east.

Iraq

Iraq will take Israel - the area to the south of Israel and his land - and he will conquer to his east.

But then as in foretold in the end of Daniel 11 - tidings out of the north and the east will trouble him.

so - the picture now becomes clearer even

.........................north troubles the ac...............
Sea/////Israel..<...Iraqi ac..>.east - <then east troubles ac
/....................the south gets conquered some................

bennie
Nov 23rd 2008, 03:20 AM
dan8:9 Out of one of them came another horn, which started small but grew in power to the south and to the east and toward the Beautiful Land

i will say the little horn comes out of the north.

devine destruction always comes from the north. God is sending a destroyer, a devine destroyer. The decree comes from above, from the north, from God Almighty.

bennie

DurbanDude
Nov 23rd 2008, 07:48 AM
Do you know that Daniel 8 reveals to us from what direction the pleasant place will be attacked?

The little horn will head in three directions - east - south - and toward the pleasant land.
So- we know then that Israel as the pleasant land must be in either the west or the north.

ac attacks Irael
plus he attacks to his south and his east

so - How about this scenario?

Med
Sea ///Israel<......ac.....>goes east some
..............heads south.....................

Since Israel is being used as a direction in Daniel 8 as to the little horn goes toward the pleasant [land] - we can use our other given clues to know that the little horn comes from the east to attack Israel.

He is not from Israel - or from the south area of Israel -he is going to come from a nation off in the east.

Iraq

Iraq will take Israel - the area to the south of Israel and his land - and he will conquer to his east.

But then as in foretold in the end of Daniel 11 - tidings out of the north and the east will trouble him.

so - the picture now becomes clearer even

.........................north troubles the ac...............
Sea/////Israel..<...Iraqi ac..>.east - <then east troubles ac
/....................the south gets conquered some................

11:41 He shall enter also into the glorious land, and many countries shall be overthrown: but these shall escape out of his hand, even Edom, and Moab, and the chief of the children of Ammon.
11:42 He shall stretch forth his hand also upon the countries: and the land of Egypt shall not escape.
11:43 But he shall have power over the treasures of gold and of silver, and over all the precious things of Egypt: and the Libyans and the Ethiopians shall be at his steps.
11:44 But tidings out of the east and out of the north shall trouble him: therefore he shall go forth with great fury to destroy, and utterly to make away many.
11:45 And he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him.

We see that the antichrist takes over Israel earlier. The antichrist rules over the Meditteranean countries (Israel, Egypt, Libya) but his rule seems to stop at Jordan and Syria (Edom, Moab,Ammon)

He lives in Israel (the tabernacles of his palace are in Israel). Reports from the east ALARM him.

The antichrist does not come from the east, he lives in Israel and his enemies come from the east.



Daniel lived during the rule of the Babylonian empire , Daniel 8 is a prophecy concerning the following two empires, Persia and Greece. It focusses on the period in which Antiochus (ruler of one of the four divisions of Alexander's Greek empire) defiles the Jewish temple for 1150 days until 165 BC. Daniel 8 does not concern the end-times.

vinsight4u8
Nov 23rd 2008, 10:35 AM
Daniel 8 - "at the time of the end [shall be] the vision"

"when the trangressors are come to the full"

"a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up"


dark sentence = riddles
The man of sin will understand riddles.


such as - Nebuchadnezzar - had dreams and thoughts upon his bed

such as - for the fierce countenance part - Deuteronomy 28:50-51
as to Babylon
"A nation of fierce countenance,...and he shall eat the fruit of thy cattle...until thou be destroyed..."

vinsight4u8
Nov 23rd 2008, 10:44 AM
The ac - an ancient king of Babylon comes to power again in Daniel 11:21 - and then we get the account of verse after verse what will take place. He takes down the prince of the covenant - and then makes a league - he goes against Egypt and Israel - but soon the ships of Chittim cause him to flee. The ac gets some evil helpers and takes the holy site - but in his own land the ac honours a strange god.

Egypt comes against him - and this time the ac comes as a whirlwind - as in time to scatter Israel.


Edom and such escape because they refused to drink from the cup taken to the nations in Jeremiah 25:15.
Jeremiah 49:12

Jeremiah 25:26 reveals that once all of the nations of the world get done drinking that Jeremiah wrote of - then and only then can the king of Sheshach drink - to fall.
Sheshach = Babylon
Iraq

vinsight4u8
Nov 23rd 2008, 11:24 AM
Daniel 11:14 is where we are now?

Some try to say that we are all the way past even the war that comes between vs 14 -19 - but go look at the regular history books - as they show no one yet fits for this part.
But Antiochus the Great was the king of the north -they cry?
But it won't work- for look closely at the way he died.

bennie
Nov 23rd 2008, 10:50 PM
Daniel 11:14 is where we are now?

Some try to say that we are all the way past even the war that comes between vs 14 -19 - but go look at the regular history books - as they show no one yet fits for this part.
But Antiochus the Great was the king of the north -they cry?
But it won't work- for look closely at the way he died.


i also agree that the horn in dan8 is not antiochus. but, then again, i dont believe it is a muslim that will come from babylon( the same babylon that God decreed will never be rebuilt) either. Dan8 desribes powers that no human have.

bennie

vinsight4u8
Nov 23rd 2008, 11:54 PM
First Babylon (Shinar) is to rise again as shown many places in the Bible (both Old and New Test.) - then God won't ever let it get rebuilt again.

Rev. 18 even speaks of Babylon - the one that made the nations drink.
Jer. 25:15 reveals that it was Babylon in the days of Nebuchadnezzar that was to make the nations drink of her wrath.


What do you think of Deuteronomy 28:48 - linked up with Jer. 28:14 and Jer. 30:6-9?
as to the yoke parts

&
Habakkuk chapter 2 - as to a vision of the coming Chaldeans - that was to be written down that at the end it shall speak?

Where would you say we are at in Daniel 8 and 11?
Do you agree that the prophecy chapters both deal with the endtimes?
"a king of fierce countenance"
is coming one day

Do you see that a future event?
How about do you limit his nation boundary area to what was the Greek Empire?

I don't see what causes you to seem to think this ruler is not human.

cross+tie
Nov 24th 2008, 01:02 AM
yeah... I agree Dan...8 ..the little horn is a prophecy of the A/C... not Antiochus...the vision explained by Gabriel is for the time of the end... the king fierce countenance will stand up against the Prince of princes...but will be broken without hand..

bennie
Nov 24th 2008, 03:09 AM
First Babylon (Shinar) is to rise again as shown many places in the Bible (both Old and New Test.) - then God won't ever let it get rebuilt again.

Rev. 18 even speaks of Babylon - the one that made the nations drink.
Jer. 25:15 reveals that it was Babylon in the days of Nebuchadnezzar that was to make the nations drink of her wrath.


What do you think of Deuteronomy 28:48 - linked up with Jer. 28:14 and Jer. 30:6-9?
as to the yoke parts

&
Habakkuk chapter 2 - as to a vision of the coming Chaldeans - that was to be written down that at the end it shall speak?

Where would you say we are at in Daniel 8 and 11?
Do you agree that the prophecy chapters both deal with the endtimes?
"a king of fierce countenance"
is coming one day

Do you see that a future event?
How about do you limit his nation boundary area to what was the Greek Empire?

I don't see what causes you to seem to think this ruler is not human.

hi vinsight.

lets deal with dan8 1st. We both seem to agree that it is not Antoichus. You believe it is a future person coming from Irak. Now the prophecy in dan8 gives alot of criteria that this person need to fullfill. I do believe all the evevts in the prophecy must be fullfilled and ALL the the specifications must be met.
What is starry host?
2 Kings 17:16 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=12&chapter=17&verse=16&version=31&context=verse)
They forsook all the commands of the LORD their God and made for themselves two idols cast in the shape of calves, and an Asherah pole. They bowed down to all the starry hosts, and they worshiped Baal
2 Kings 21:3 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=12&chapter=21&verse=3&version=31&context=verse)
He rebuilt the high places his father Hezekiah had destroyed; he also erected altars to Baal and made an Asherah pole, as Ahab king of Israel had done. He bowed down to all the starry hosts and worshiped them.
Jeremiah 19:13 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=30&chapter=19&verse=13&version=31&context=verse)
The houses in Jerusalem and those of the kings of Judah will be defiled like this place, Topheth—all the houses where they burned incense on the roofs to all the starry hosts and poured out drink offerings to other gods.' "

ok, here is just 3 examples of what a starry host is. It is false gods and/or religions. whould you agree? Ok so this person need to be able to take some false religions and fals gods and trample on them. whell i take it that he will have to show the false religions and false gods to be false. sorry, redundant, i know:D

What man/human that has ever lived( Jesus does not count) can do such an magnifisent act??

dan8:11 It set itself up to be as great as the Prince of the host; it took away the daily sacrifice from him, and the place of his sanctuary was brought low:

The prince we would both agree is Jesus. So this "person" would set himself up as being god and take away the daily.( the word sacrifice is added by translators) What is the daily?? well, the priests had to make offerings and sacrifices every day in the morning and evening. Had to make an ofering for the nation as a corparate entity. The priests interceded with God on behalf of the nation. that was a daily service they did. hence the daily.
Now we have such Hight Priest in heaven right now. And He intercedes for us at this moment.
What person/human have the power to take away the daily from Jesus Christ?? Well you know the aswer to that. No one have the power to do that.

bennie

vinsight4u8
Nov 24th 2008, 04:19 AM
yeah... I agree Dan...8 ..the little horn is a prophecy of the A/C... not Antiochus...the vision explained by Gabriel is for the time of the end... the king fierce countenance will stand up against the Prince of princes...but will be broken without hand..

Would you see that ac as coming from the east being what Daniel 8 shows?

ac - little horn
goes > east, south, and toward Israel


so he heads east - but that was not in the direction of Israel
and south from his land wasn't toward Israel either

To get to Israel - the little horn will not go east or south.


Israel.....<little horn nation > east
...................takes the south........


Daniel 8 refers to what seems to be the last transgressor at the holy site place.
After Anticohus of Epiphanes were others - including his own son - Antiochus Eupator.

V21
"...of Grecia....
V22
"...four stood up for it..."

Daniel 8:23
"And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up."

I find it interesting that Deuteronomy 28:50 speaks of a nation of fierce countenance and then a he from the nation at V51.

vinsight4u8
Nov 24th 2008, 06:24 AM
Hi bennie
What version are you posting from?

ex. KJV
Daniel 8:11 "....by him the daily [sacrifice] was taken away.."

I don't know what you are heading to as to Jesus being our daily.

as in our daily [sacrifice]

Jesus was offered once.


"the place of His sanctuary was cast down"

Wouldn't this refer to the location of it at the holy site in Jerusalem?


The only war in heaven that Revelation shows is when Satan gets cast out and all the other wicked angels with him.

bennie
Nov 24th 2008, 02:47 PM
hi vinsight

i use both the NIV and KJV. the text i left was from the NIV. sorry should have put that down.
Would you agree that Jesus is our High Priest in Heavan? He(Jesus) performs a daily service in heaven on behalf of the people of earth. I did explain in the previos post what a daily is in the OT.
When the AC (satan/lucifer) comes to earth there will be no more intersession from our high preist on a corporate level, only on an individual level..

bennie

cwb
Nov 24th 2008, 02:53 PM
i also agree that the horn in dan8 is not antiochus. but, then again, i dont believe it is a muslim that will come from babylon( the same babylon that God decreed will never be rebuilt) either. Dan8 desribes powers that no human have.

bennie
Where did God decree Babylon would never be rebuilt?

vinsight4u8
Nov 24th 2008, 03:23 PM
Jesus is not our daily sacrifice. I'm not sure what is leading you to believe that. He shed His blood for us and entered into the holy place once for our sins.
as High Priest

Hebrews 7:27
Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice...for this he did once, when he offered himself up."
9:12 "...he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemtion [for us]."
(KJV)

bennie
Nov 24th 2008, 03:42 PM
Where did God decree Babylon would never be rebuilt?

Isaiah 13:19 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=29&chapter=13&verse=19&version=31&context=verse)
Babylon, the jewel of kingdoms, the glory of the Babylonians' pride, will be overthrown by God like Sodom and Gomorrah

Isaiah 14:4 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=29&chapter=14&verse=4&version=31&context=verse)
you will take up this taunt against the king of Babylon: How the oppressor has come to an end! How his fury has ended

Jeremiah 25:8-15 (New International Version)

8 Therefore the LORD Almighty says this: "Because you have not listened to my words, 9 I will summon all the peoples of the north and my servant Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon," declares the LORD, "and I will bring them against this land and its inhabitants and against all the surrounding nations. I will completely destroy [a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Jeremiah%2025:8-15;&version=31;#fen-NIV-19544a)] them and make them an object of horror and scorn, and an everlasting ruin. 10 I will banish from them the sounds of joy and gladness, the voices of bride and bridegroom, the sound of millstones and the light of the lamp. 11 This whole country will become a desolate wasteland, and these nations will serve the king of Babylon seventy years. 12 "But when the seventy years are fulfilled, I will punish the king of Babylon and his nation, the land of the Babylonians, [b (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Jeremiah%2025:8-15;&version=31;#fen-NIV-19547b)] for their guilt," declares the LORD, "and will make it desolate forever. 13 I will bring upon that land all the things I have spoken against it, all that are written in this book and prophesied by Jeremiah against all the nations. 14 They themselves will be enslaved by many nations and great kings; I will repay them according to their deeds and the work of their hands."

God declared it. It was done. The seventy years was fullfilled. It happened.

the seventy years is not going to get finished in the future. the jews were in captifity for seventy years to the day, when they where set free. With God TIMING IS EVERYTHING!!!

bennie

vinsight4u8
Nov 24th 2008, 03:43 PM
Jeremiah 51:26
"And they shall not take of thee a stone for a corner, nor a stone for foundations..."

This is a message written to the Babylon on the Euphrates River. The prophecy begins back in chapter 50.

V1
"The word that the LORD spake against Babylon, [and] against the land of the Chaldeans...."

But these chapters refer to a time when Babylon has been prospering and so has her mother - then the warning goes out as to both of their falls will come and everyone is to flee Babylon.

How could that have happened when Cyrus took down the last Babylonian king; for even then Daniel did not flee the land? Cyrus never destroyed it or Babylon's people.
Yet it refers to a time when Israel must flee Babylon and return to her own land.

V20
"In those days, and in that time, saith the LORD, the iniquity of Israel shall be sought for, and [there shall be] none...for I will pardon them whom I reserve."
V22
"A sound of battle [is] in the land, and of great destruction."
V40
"As God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah...shall no man abide there..."
51:24
"And will render unto Babylon and to all the inhabitants of Chaldea all their evil..."


At the end of Zechariah 5 is shown an ephah being carried by the wind back to Shinar. Daniel 2 shows that empires get shattered and the wind helps them look for a place to rebuild. Eventually no sites for the fallen empires will be found. Zechariah saw though that an ephah is returned to Shinar - set on her own base.
----back where the ephah came from
to build it an house
/a palace
start the kingdom of Shinar over again

Why?
Because the first section of Zec. 5 shows us how Babylon must fall one day - due to a curse that was earned by her land.
So in order for this curse to befall Shinar's land - Shinar has to get a house again.

then one day - she will be consumed
even the timber and the stones of her

vinsight4u8
Nov 24th 2008, 03:48 PM
Hello bennie

What king of Babylon would you say God punished at the end of the 70 years?

Nebuchadnezzar II- 605 B.C.

and then jump forward seventy years and the king that was taken down of Babylon was?????

bennie
Nov 24th 2008, 03:49 PM
thats all fine. But God sead it will be destroyed, and that happend. The city of Babylon like it was in 700bc can and will never be the same again. it is not humanly posible.
Jesus decreed the temple to be utterly destroyed. Did He say when? No. but it happend. Jesus said Babylon will be destroyed, and it happend.

bennie

bennie
Nov 24th 2008, 03:53 PM
Hello bennie

What king of Babylon would you say God punished at the end of the 70 years?

Nebuchadnezzar II- 605 B.C.

and then jump forward seventy years and the king that was taken down of Babylon was?????


hi vinsight.

do you see babylon at all as a corporate entity? Or do you only see it as a king? My question is: Has the reighn of babylon come to an end(the empire)? Yes it did. History is unavoidable. The empire of the babylonians is gone.

bennie

vinsight4u8
Nov 24th 2008, 03:55 PM
Isaiah 13:1
"The burden of Babylon..."
V6
"Howl ye, for the day of the LORD [is] at hand..."

This is a prophecy to befall Babylon in the endtimes.

V11
"And I will punish the world..."
V13
"Therefore I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her place..."
V19
"And Babylon, the glory of kingdoms, the beauty of the Chaldees' excellency, shall be as when God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah."
V20
"It shall never be inhabited..."

The day when Babylon gets to the point when she will never be inhabited is yet in the future.

V22
"...her time [is] near to come...her days shall not be prolonged."

Rev. 18:21
"And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast [it] into the sea, saying, Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all."

bennie
Nov 24th 2008, 04:04 PM
Isaiah 13:1
"The burden of Babylon..."
V6
"Howl ye, for the day of the LORD [is] at hand..."

This is a prophecy to befall Babylon in the endtimes.

V11
"And I will punish the world..."
V13
"Therefore I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her place..."
V19
"And Babylon, the glory of kingdoms, the beauty of the Chaldees' excellency, shall be as when God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah."
V20
"It shall never be inhabited..."

The day when Babylon gets to the point when she will never be inhabited is yet in the future.

V22
"...her time [is] near to come...her days shall not be prolonged."

Rev. 18:21
"And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast [it] into the sea, saying, Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all."

I do see the babylon in revelation different. I believe it is the modern day world we live in. That is the only senario that encompasses the whole world. i will reply more later. Need to wash dishes for the musses and go to work after that.

bennie

vinsight4u8
Nov 24th 2008, 04:06 PM
"And it shall come to pass when...."

This message in Jeremiah 25 is a when - then prophecy. till V11 gets fulfilled as to the Babylonian kings get done ruling the nations for 70 years - V12 is not yet even started.

V12
"And it shall come to pass, when seventy years are accomplished...punish the king of Babylon..."

So if this is all over and done with - then who was the king of Babylon that met his due at the end of a time of 70 years of Jerusalem being desolate?

We have Nebuchadnezzar II as to where to make the starting point of the 70-yr prophecy - so.........click off the years and tell me what Babylonian king was in power in 535 B.C.?

It is impossible to come up with a name for one - as Cyrus took down the last Babylonian king in 539 B.C.

The Babylonian empire had fallen to the Persians years before the clock ticked off that last 70-yr minute.
The Israel in servitude to Babylon clock is still sitting on the world waiting to begin to click off those last years - and then Babylon's land will be destroyed - as was Sodom and Gomorrah.

The prophecy message as to the length of time for Babylon and her king was what bugged Daniel in chapter 9. He read it - he supplicated to understand it/ Gabriel came and told him to understand.
"to finish the transgression"

"till the consummation"
/- as in something began was not done with

vinsight4u8
Nov 24th 2008, 04:12 PM
TimeLife Books

Mesopotamia: The Mighty Kings
page 124
"For all its glory, the city's brief flowering in what is known as
the Neo-Babylonian era was less than seventy years, from 605
B.C. to 539 B.C. Babylon was ruled for more than half of that time by the
mighty Nebuchadnezzar II, whose ambitious building schemes
created a capital of awe-inspiring grandeur."

page 130
"The beginning of the Babylonian year fell in the month called Nisan,
straddling today's March and April.
"The New Year's festival was also a renewal of the kingship, a time
when the monarch had to prove his worthiness to rule yet another
year."

page 131
"As the son of Nabopolassar. the king who was responsible for
destroying Nineveh in 612 B.C."
"Nebuchadnezzar II took it upon himself to finally defeat the
Assyrians at the battle of Carchemish on the upper Euphrates,
in 605 B.C. He then hurried home, where his father was dying,
in order to secure his inheritance."

page 149
"In 539 B.C. Cyrus at last turned against the former ally and rapidly
overran the country. Then the Persian king marched into Babylon

vinsight4u8
Nov 25th 2008, 12:31 PM
Warning all about the yoke of iron!

Read Deuteronomy 28:48
Jeremiah 28:14
Jeremiah 30:6-9

At the start of the time of Nebuchadnezzar to be over Israel - Jeremiah warned the people and let them know that all the previous yokes had been removed off of them. God was now about to put another on the necks of them - and eventually the story ended up with it being the yoke of iron (for the yoke of wood was broken by a false prophet that soon died).

So on the necks of the world - went the yoke of iron. Nowhere does the Bible ever reveal that this yoke was taken away. The Babylonian king must rule the nations - nations that serve him for 70 years.
&
Problem came with that being done right then - in Jeremiah's day - for the king of Persia took down Babylon's king after about 66.5 years.

So Babylon - 605 -- ------ 539 (but now Cyrus the Persian)
B.C.

No properly working calculator will ever get 70 years out of the time between those two dates.

vinsight4u8
Nov 25th 2008, 12:35 PM
Go look at Jeremiah 29:10 - and then read Jeremiah 25:11-13 - for they both started at the same moment - but only 29:10 is over.

Babylon's king must one day complete that 70 years of Babylonian kingdom rule time.

vinsight4u8
Nov 25th 2008, 12:37 PM
Go to and read Jeremiah 27:6-7 as to how the entire verse section is in reference to Nebuchadnezzar.

Roelof
Nov 28th 2008, 05:13 AM
dan8:9 Out of one of them came another horn, which started small but grew in power to the south and to the east and toward the Beautiful Land

i will say the little horn comes out of the north.



North of Israel?
Russia, the MU, China perhaps?

DurbanDude
Nov 28th 2008, 07:28 AM
Daniel lived during the rule of Babylon. Many prophecies in Daniel concern the following two empires after Babylon, Persia and Greece. We don't even have to guess this , Daniel 8 explains it.

If I remember my history correctly the Medes and the Persians intermarried often and had close family ties and were close geographically, so sometimes the leader of the Persian empire was a Mede. Hence the two horns of the ram, Media and Persia. Then Alexander the Great of Greece (great horn) conquered the entire region. When he died the Greek Empire was split into 4 regions, one each for each of Alexander's 4 generals. these political regions remained intact for hundreds of years right until the Roman Empire dominated all four of these regions.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/b0/Diadochen1.png/300px-Diadochen1.png (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Diadochen1.png)

4 regions , two in the west , Greece and Turkey , one in the middle east (seleucids) , and one in the south (Egypt). The Seleucid Empire conquered further east and further south than the previous boundaries under Alexander the Great.
When Antiochus took over the Seleucid Empire he had control over the Israel region and succesfully campaigned against Egypt. Of all the kings of all the four regions he was the only one to call himself a "god" and he outlawed Judaism in Israel, and slaughtered many Jews. For 1150 days there were no Jewish sacrifices in the temple. The bible strangely doesn't refer to "days" , the bible used the phrase 2300 "evenings and mornings". A strange phrase if referring to days, but more understandable as a count of the morning and evening holy sacrifices that were stopped, the Jews having a morning sacrifice and an evening sacrifice every day. After 1150 days the Jewish rebellion restored the sacrifices.

This 2300 does not fit into any end-time prophecy relating to 3.5 years or 1260 days.

Daniel 8:20 The ram which thou sawest having two horns are the kings of Media and Persia.
8:21 And the rough goat is the king of Grecia: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king.
8:22 Now that being broken, whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not in his power.
8:23 And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.
8:24 And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people.

bennie
Nov 29th 2008, 02:19 AM
Daniel lived during the rule of Babylon. Many prophecies in Daniel concern the following two empires after Babylon, Persia and Greece. We don't even have to guess this , Daniel 8 explains it.

If I remember my history correctly the Medes and the Persians intermarried often and had close family ties and were close geographically, so sometimes the leader of the Persian empire was a Mede. Hence the two horns of the ram, Media and Persia. Then Alexander the Great of Greece (great horn) conquered the entire region. When he died the Greek Empire was split into 4 regions, one each for each of Alexander's 4 generals. these political regions remained intact for hundreds of years right until the Roman Empire dominated all four of these regions.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/b0/Diadochen1.png/300px-Diadochen1.png (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Diadochen1.png)

4 regions , two in the west , Greece and Turkey , one in the middle east (seleucids) , and one in the south (Egypt). The Seleucid Empire conquered further east and further south than the previous boundaries under Alexander the Great.
When Antiochus took over the Seleucid Empire he had control over the Israel region and succesfully campaigned against Egypt. Of all the kings of all the four regions he was the only one to call himself a "god" and he outlawed Judaism in Israel, and slaughtered many Jews. For 1150 days there were no Jewish sacrifices in the temple. The bible strangely doesn't refer to "days" , the bible used the phrase 2300 "evenings and mornings". A strange phrase if referring to days, but more understandable as a count of the morning and evening holy sacrifices that were stopped, the Jews having a morning sacrifice and an evening sacrifice every day. After 1150 days the Jewish rebellion restored the sacrifices.

This 2300 does not fit into any end-time prophecy relating to 3.5 years or 1260 days.

Daniel 8:20 The ram which thou sawest having two horns are the kings of Media and Persia.
8:21 And the rough goat is the king of Grecia: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king.
8:22 Now that being broken, whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not in his power.
8:23 And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.
8:24 And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people.


hi durbandude.

Dan8:19 He said: "I am going to tell you what will happen later in the time of wrath, because the vision concerns the appointed time of the end.

Now the question needs to be ask: Wich part of the vision concerns the time of the end?
We know who the ram is: "The two-horned ram that you saw represents the kings of Media and Persia."
We know who the goat is: "The shaggy goat is the king of Greece, and the large horn between his eyes is the first king."

The ownly other entity in the vision is the little horn.
Now we can say that the little horn was Antiochus, but that will meen that we went through the time of the end already. See what i mean?


".....and in its place four prominent horns grew up toward the four winds of heaven."Dan8:8

" Out of one of them came another horn...." Dan8:9

If you go on grammer alone, the little horn need to come out of the four winds.

IMHO a prophecy can only be fullfilled IF ALL the specifications withinn the prophecy are met. And the order of the prophecy is not broken. Everything must happen in its cronological order.

Bennie

brakelite
Nov 29th 2008, 11:34 PM
Daniel (or God through him) said that the little horn would be exceeding great. The empires before him, Media-Persia and Babylon, were great and very great. So the little horn, to be exceeding great, had to be greater at least than those former empires. The little horn Antiochus? Compared to Alexander or Cyrus ? He wasn't even as great as his grandfather Antiochus the great. Antiochus was not and is not the little horn that grew out of one of the four winds. It was Rome. First in it's pagan stage and then in it's papal.
As it waxed great toward the south and the east and the pleasant land, it was growing horizontally as a pagan secular empire. In verses 10 and 11 of Daniel 8 it describes how it starts growing vertically toward heaven and attacks the God Himself and the place of His sanctuary, casting truth to the ground and prospering in falsehood. This is the papal stage of Rome.
Which is precisely why in the statue of Daniel 2 the iron and clay endures right up to the second coming.At first iron alone (Rome pagan) and then iron and clay , the mixture of state/church which we see at present in the form of the RCC.
The fourth beast also is pagan secular Rome, and the little horn which grew out of that from among the ten horns is the papal church.
It was the papacy which uprooted 3 of the original ten horns. History. Never lies.
The RCC , after taking secular power in Rome after ousting the Ostrogoths in 538, endured exactly 1260 years (1260 days, 42 months, 3 1/2 years prophetical time) until 1798 when the French revolutionary general Berthier, under orders from Napoleon, entered Rome and took the Pope captive and declared Rome a republic. He disbanded the college of cardinals, and every political leader of the world at that time thought the papacy was finished. She had received her mortal head wound. (rev 13) But in 1929 Mussolini returned the Vatican to the pope and once again the RCC was back in business as a church /state adulteress union under the Lateran treaty.
And now the world wonders after the beast which had the wound by the sword and did live.
Like someone said, timing with God is everything.

Prophecy Countdown
Nov 30th 2008, 01:10 AM
Hi Bennie, I am with you on this.

The angel Gabriel, makes things abundantly clear that to understand the vision we must understand the time of the vision.

Daniel 8: 17. And I heard a man’s voice between the banks of Ulai, which called, and said, Gabriel, make this man to understand the vision.

17. So he came near where I stood: and when he came, I was afraid, and fell upon my face: but he said unto me, Understand, O son of man: for at the time of the end shall be the vision.

19. And he said, Behold, I will make thee know what shall be in the last end of the indignation: for at the time appointed the end shall be.


Now the question needs to be ask: Wich part of the vision concerns the time of the end?
We know who the ram is: "The two-horned ramMedia and Persia."

When I read Daniel 8: I keep in mind Daniel 7: 3 – 7 and note that these four notable ones are around when verse 26, 27 and 28 occur so I see Daniel as a progression with Daniel 7 as the overview.
I also keep in mind Daniel 2: 42 - 44.

In Daniel 8: I see the mention of the ‘kings of Media and Persia’yet as I understand it historically only one king of the Medo/Persian Empire named ‘King Cyrus’ was responsible for the death of the Babylonian Empire and king Belshazzar. All other Medo/Persian kings followed, each in their given historical order, one at a time.

Yet we have the clear biblical mention of two horns leaders/kings of both Medo/Iraq and Pesraia/Iran on the ram, two countries rising at different times yet ‘pushing westward, and northward, and southward.’
Could the ram represent the Moslem Shiite fundamentalists of today within two separate powers Iraq and Iran?

Daniel 8: 20. The ram which thou sawest having two horns are the kings of Media and Persia.

Earlier in Daniel 8 the two horns rise, Iraq being the shorter firstly then the Higher Iran, last.
Daniel 8: 3. Then I lifted up mine eyes, and saw, and, behold, there stood before the river a ram which had two horns: and the two horns were high; but one was higher than the other, and the higher came up last.

What I am trying to say is the historical Medo/Persian Empire rose as one power under one leader at one time to defeat Babylon and does not comply with the requirements of the vision's geographical location or time of the end scenario or to the fact that two kings are mentioned in Daniel 8.


We know who the goat is: "The shaggy goat is the king of Greece, and the large horn between his eyes is the first king."

Daniel 8: 21. And the rough goat is the king of Grecia 3120) and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king.

My first problem with the idea that verse 21 relates to the single nation of Greece under ‘Alexander The Great’ is that the war ‘being around 331BC is not at the time of the end concerning the vision and was fought upon the Arbella Plains around 1000 miles away from the Ulai River the clear biblical stated geographical location of the vision, the Prophet Daniel says in verse 2 ‘I was at Shushan in the palace, which is in the province of Elam; and I saw in a vision, and I was by the river of Ulai. He describes the ram standing by the river Ulai .

In verses 3 to 6 Daniel, has the ram standing by that river and the he goat coming to the ram from the West not touching the ground.

Grecia numbered 3120 is derived from the name Yavan 3120 and the law of first usage or meaning related to the name 'Yavan' applies.
Yavan was the father of Elishah, Tarshish, Kittim, and Dodanim, these were responsible for the Western migration and populating the isles and lands of the Western Gentile nations not just Greece/Grecia.

KJV
Geneses 10: 4. And the sons of Javan; (3120) Elishah, and Tarshish, Kittim, and Dodanim.
5. By these were the isles of the Gentiles divided in their lands; every one after his tongue, after their families, in their nations.

So it seems the name Javan/Grecia 3120 in this case means Western Gentile nations and the fact that the he goat comes from the West over a great distance without touching the ground is apt in the times stipulated being within the 2300 ereb boqer time span.
So who is number one king/leader of the Gentile nations?

(I won’t tell you that the lion losing its eagle wings in Daniel 7 is the break up of the ‘GB, lion/USA eagle alliance that will attack the higher horn.) Setting the time of those four rising just a short time before verse 27 when the everlasting kingdom is set up.)

The ownly other entity in the vision is the little horn.
Now we can say that the little horn was Antiochus, but that will meen that we went through the time of the end already. See what i mean?

".....and in its place four prominent horns grew up toward the four winds of heaven."Dan8:8

" Out of one of them came another horn...." Dan8:9

If you go on grammer alone, the little horn need to come out of the four winds.

IMHO a prophecy can only be fullfilled IF ALL the specifications withinn the prophecy are met. And the order of the prophecy is not broken. Everything must happen in its cronological order.

Bennie

Amen to that Bennie!:note:

bennie
Nov 30th 2008, 01:44 AM
Hi Bennie, I am with you on this.

The angel Gabriel, makes things abundantly clear that to understand the vision we must understand the time of the vision.

Daniel 8: 17. And I heard a man’s voice between the banks of Ulai, which called, and said, Gabriel, make this man to understand the vision.

17. So he came near where I stood: and when he came, I was afraid, and fell upon my face: but he said unto me, Understand, O son of man: for at the time of the end shall be the vision.

19. And he said, Behold, I will make thee know what shall be in the last end of the indignation: for at the time appointed the end shall be.



When I read Daniel 8: I keep in mind Daniel 7: 3 – 7 and note that these four notable ones are around when verse 26, 27 and 28 occur so I see Daniel as a progression with Daniel 7 as the overview.
I also keep in mind Daniel 2: 42 - 44.

In Daniel 8: I see the mention of the ‘kings of Media and Persia’yet as I understand it historically only one king of the Medo/Persian Empire named ‘King Cyrus’ was responsible for the death of the Babylonian Empire king Belshazzar. All other Medo/Persian kings followed, each in their given historical order, one at a time.

Yet we have the clear biblical mention of two leaders/kings of both Medo/Iraq and Pesraia/Iran on the ram rising at different times yet ‘pushing westward, and northward, and southward.’
Could the ram represent the Moslem Shiite fundamentalists of today within two separate powers Iraq and Iran on the ram?

Daniel 8: 20. The ram which thou sawest having two horns are the kings of Media and Persia.

Earlier in Daniel 8 the two horns rise, Iraq being the shorter firstly then the Higher Iran, last.
Daniel 8: 3. Then I lifted up mine eyes, and saw, and, behold, there stood before the river a ram which had two horns: and the two horns were high; but one was higher than the other, and the higher came up last.



Daniel 8: 21. And the rough goat is the king of Grecia:(3120) and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king.

My first problem with the idea that verse 21 relates to the single nation of Greece under ‘Alexander The Great’ is that the war ‘being around 331BC is not at the time of the end concerning the vision and was fought upon the Arbella Plains around 1000 miles away from the Ulai River the clear biblical stated geographical location of the vision, the Prophet

Daniel says in verse 2 ‘I was at Shushan in the palace, which is in the province of Elam; and I saw in a vision, and I was by the river of Ulai. He describes the ram standing by the river Ulai .

In verses 3 to 6 Daniel, has the ram standing by that river and the he goat coming to the ram from the West not touching the ground.

Now for the translators word Grecia numbered 3120 which is derived from the name Yavan 3120.

Yavan was the father of Elishah, Tarshish, Kittim, and Dodanim, these were responsible for the Western migration and populating the isles and lands of the Western Gentile nations not just Greece/Grecia.

KJV
Geneses 10: 4. And the sons of Javan; (3120) Elishah, and Tarshish, Kittim, and Dodanim.
5. By these were the isles of the Gentiles divided in their lands; every one after his tongue, after their families, in their nations.

So it seems the name Javan/Grecia 3120 in this case means Western Gentile nations and the fact that the he goat comes from the West over a great distance without touching the ground is apt in the times stipulated being with the 2300 ereb boqer.

(I won’t tell you that the lion losing its eagle wings in Daniel 7 is the break up of the ‘GB, lion/USA eagle alliance that will attack the higher horn.) Setting the time of those four rising just a short time before verse 27 when the everlasting kingdom is set up.)

The ownly other entity in the vision is the little horn.
Now we can say that the little horn was Antiochus, but that will meen that we went through the time of the end already. See what i mean?

".....and in its place four prominent horns grew up toward the four winds of heaven."Dan8:8

" Out of one of them came another horn...." Dan8:9

If you go on grammer alone, the little horn need to come out of the four winds.

IMHO a prophecy can only be fullfilled IF ALL the specifications withinn the prophecy are met. And the order of the prophecy is not broken. Everything must happen in its cronological order.

Bennie

Amen to that Bennie!:note:


hi PC

dan2, dan7 and dan8 fits on top off each other. all those prophecys have a binging point in time and an ending point in time. It is perfect repertition and enlargment. I think God did this so there would be NO confusion for what each symbol represents.

bennie

bennie
Nov 30th 2008, 01:46 AM
Daniel (or God through him) said that the little horn would be exceeding great. The empires before him, Media-Persia and Babylon, were great and very great. So the little horn, to be exceeding great, had to be greater at least than those former empires. The little horn Antiochus? Compared to Alexander or Cyrus ? He wasn't even as great as his grandfather Antiochus the great. Antiochus was not and is not the little horn that grew out of one of the four winds. It was Rome. First in it's pagan stage and then in it's papal.
As it waxed great toward the south and the east and the pleasant land, it was growing horizontally as a pagan secular empire. In verses 10 and 11 of Daniel 8 it describes how it starts growing vertically toward heaven and attacks the God Himself and the place of His sanctuary, casting truth to the ground and prospering in falsehood. This is the papal stage of Rome.
Which is precisely why in the statue of Daniel 2 the iron and clay endures right up to the second coming.At first iron alone (Rome pagan) and then iron and clay , the mixture of state/church which we see at present in the form of the RCC.
The fourth beast also is pagan secular Rome, and the little horn which grew out of that from among the ten horns is the papal church.
It was the papacy which uprooted 3 of the original ten horns. History. Never lies.
The RCC , after taking secular power in Rome after ousting the Ostrogoths in 538, endured exactly 1260 years (1260 days, 42 months, 3 1/2 years prophetical time) until 1798 when the French revolutionary general Berthier, under orders from Napoleon, entered Rome and took the Pope captive and declared Rome a republic. He disbanded the college of cardinals, and every political leader of the world at that time thought the papacy was finished. She had received her mortal head wound. (rev 13) But in 1929 Mussolini returned the Vatican to the pope and once again the RCC was back in business as a church /state adulteress union under the Lateran treaty.
And now the world wonders after the beast which had the wound by the sword and did live.
Like someone said, timing with God is everything.


hi breaklite.

I do not believe the RCC is going to be the antichrist or the pope. I believe the image in rev have something to do with the RCC, but that is about it.

bennie

Prophecy Countdown
Nov 30th 2008, 03:13 AM
hi PC

dan2, dan7 and dan8 fits on top off each other. all those prophecys have a binging point in time and an ending point in time. It is perfect repertition and enlargment. I think God did this so there would be NO confusion for what each symbol represents.

bennie

Hi Bennie.
Yes indeed. I am of the same opinion that Daniel is a progression an enlargement and that Daniel 2: 41 – 44 and that Daniel chapter 7: to chapter 12 belong to the 2300 ereb boqer TIME OF THE END at the FEET OF IRON AND CLAY. :pp

PC

bennie
Nov 30th 2008, 03:19 AM
Hi Bennie.
Yes indeed. I am of the same opinion that Daniel is a progression an enlargement and that Daniel 2: 41 – 44 and that Daniel chapter 7: to chapter 12 belong to the 2300 ereb boqer TIME OF THE END at the FEET OF IRON AND CLAY. :pp

PC


hi PC

do you see the 2300 evenings and mornings as days or years? I do see them as years.

bennie

Prophecy Countdown
Nov 30th 2008, 04:02 AM
hi PC

do you see the 2300 evenings and mornings as days or years? I do see them as years.

bennie

Hi Bennie.,
I see them as days.
In Geneses 1: 1 – 31. 2: 1 the term ‘ereb boqer’ is used describing the time span of creation week, there was the first ereb boqer and then the second ereb boqer until we reach the seventh day Sabbath etc.
If we change ereb/evening boqer/morning into years then we have a problem with creation being over a seven year period.
It is impossible to change ereb boqer into years. Aramaic in which Daniel was written does not allow it.
Also the old law of first usage takes primacy over any interpretation.


The Bible is saying 'then there was the first evening and morning then there was the second evening and morning etc.

What God does when someone asks how long is the vision? In Daniel 8: 13 is
make it a 2300 ereb boqer duration in verse 14 which nullifies the historic view because of the time span discipline of the vision.
Also in Daniel 8: verses 11, 12, and 13 the word Sacrifice was added, that being indicated by it being in italics and is not found in the writings of Daniel in the Ancient Sea Scrolls, so on that basis the application of it to Jesus Christ’s crucifixion is unsound let alone the fact that the crucifixion cannot possibly fit into the vision's time span of 2300 ereb boqer concerning the time of the end and last end to which the vision belongs, as a result of that non observance of the 2300 ereb boqer and the time of the end restraint concerning the vision a construct of Daniel 9: 26 - 27 is also applied to the time of the crucifixion spreading the vision wide open to all and sundry interpretations.

What a pity.

PC

Prophecy Countdown
Nov 30th 2008, 04:25 AM
Hi Bennie.
I forgot one other thing.
I think it unwise to change words or take them away from prophecy.

That fact is made abundantly clear in Revelation 22: 18. For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
19. And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

I have found a well-established biblical correlation between the time spans of both the books of Daniel and Revelation concerning the eschatological time of the end and last end.
So to my simple way of thinking, changing the words of God through His messengers to fit an historic human interpretation in my opinion is extremely dangerous therefor unwise to say the least.
Sorry to be so blunt Bennie but I worry about it, it literally is a life and death situation..
PC

Prophecy Countdown
Nov 30th 2008, 11:00 PM
Brakelite
Daniel (or God through him) said that the little horn would be exceeding great. The empires before him, Media-Persia and Babylon, were great and very great.


The four beast powers depicted in Daniel chapter 7: 3 to 7 are the lion, bear, leopard, and fourth beast most terrible and are around TOGETHER when verse 27 brings in the coming kingdom of God.
They are not associated with past empires biblically, if they are please show me the verse or verses?
The past empires were around in their given metal order, down through the Metal Empire Statue.
The last being Rome ending in 476AD.
Those empires were never all together as are the four beasts in Daniel 7: 3 – 7 when God sets up His everlasting kingdom Dan 7: 27 and God’s timing in these matters eliminates them as somehow being representative of those long gone historic Empires in any way shape or form.


So the little horn, to be exceeding great, had to be greater at least than those former empires. The little horn Antiochus? Compared to Alexander or Cyrus ? He wasn't even as great as his grandfather Antiochus the great. Antiochus was not and is not the little horn that grew out of one of the four winds. It was Rome. First in it's pagan stage and then in it's papal.
As it waxed great toward the south and the east and the pleasant land, it was growing horizontally as a pagan secular empire.

The little horn rises during the reigns of the lion, bear, leopard, and fourth beast most terrible and is certainly not Rome, papal or otherwise in any way shape or form because the little horn has the power to cast out the stars/angels out of heaven to the Earth.


Daniel 8: 9. “And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land.”
10. “And it waxed great, to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them.”
What pope had the power to do that in the past?

That action was carried out by Satan the dragon at the time of God incarnate in Revelation 12: 1. “And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:”
2. “And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.”
3. And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold A GREAT RED DRAGON,having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.

4. AND HIS TAIL DREW THE THIRD PART OF THE STARS OF HEAVEN, AND DID CAST THEM TO THE EARTH: and THE DRAGON stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
5. And she brought forth A MAN CHILD, TO RULE ALL THE NATIONS WITH A ROD OF IRON: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.
6. And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.
May I suggest that the little horn is Satan.:note:

Prophecy Countdown
Nov 30th 2008, 11:03 PM
The above was the reason the Disciples spoke of seeing the Antichrist and antichrists, they were everywhere. There were people POSSESSED AT THAT TIME, evil spirits lurking in dwellings.

Rev 12: 8 – 17 when Satan and his evil angels are to be thrown out of Heaven down to Earth, I believe the same thing will happen again with evil spirits that is why I believe that those in Judaea are told not to go back into their homes.
Matthew 24: 15. When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
See the ‘set up’ for 1290 days in Daniel 12: 11.

Matthew 24: 16. Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:


Matthew 24: 17. Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: 18. Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.

‘Craft’ is an old English word for witchcraft.

Daniel 8: 24. And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people.
25. And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace (Greek; prosperity) shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.

26. And the vision of the evening and the morning which was told is true: wherefore shut thou up the vision; for it shall be for many days.
In my humble opinion the vision is for 2300 ereb/evening boqer/morning or 2300 days.



Brakelite

In verses 10 and 11 of Daniel 8 it describes how it starts growing vertically toward heaven and attacks the God Himself and the place of His sanctuary, casting truth to the ground and prospering in falsehood. This is the papal stage of Rome.
With great respect I can’t agree that the above is applicable to any pope. May I suggest dear Brakelite, that you may consider reading Isaiah 14: 7 – 17 to find the culprit who wants to sit on God’s mount at the sides of the North in Jerusalem, that is why the little horn heads to the Pleasant land.



Brakelite

Which is precisely why in the statue of Daniel 2 the iron and clay endures right up to the second coming.At first iron alone (Rome pagan) and then iron and clay, the mixture of state/church which we see at present in the form of the RCC.

The FEET OF IRON AND CLAY represent a time WAY AFTER the legs of iron, being the Roman Empire ending in 476AD. The statue is a Metal Empire Time Span Statue, each section being representative of an empire at a separate time span.




Brakelite

The fourth beast also is pagan secular Rome, and the little horn which grew out of that from among the ten horns is the papal church.
The fourth beast is a fallen angel he was around way back in Geneses 4 he was warned when told the following.
Geneses 4: 10. “And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.”


It was the papacy which uprooted 3 of the original ten horns. History. Never lies.
The RCC , after taking secular power in Rome after ousting the Ostrogoths in 538, endured exactly 1260 years (1260 days, 42 months, 3 1/2 years prophetical time) until 1798 when the French revolutionary general Berthier, under orders from Napoleon, entered Rome and took the Pope captive and declared Rome a republic. I am sorry to disagree again dear brakelite but to me a day means day and the vision is only for ‘1260 days’ An evening and a morning represents a day, if it were years it would not fit into the time of the end’s2300 ereb/evening boqer/morning time span and the Bible would have said year but it does not.

Daniel 8: 13. Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, HOW LONG shall be THE VISION concerning the daily (sacrifice,) and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot? 14And he said unto me, Unto TWO THOUSAND THREE HUNDRED DAYS; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.
The same term ‘2300 ereb/evening boqer/morning.’ is used for creation week, seven days.


He disbanded the college of cardinals, and every political leader of the world at that time thought the papacy was finished. She had received her mortal head wound. (rev 13)
But in 1929 Mussolini returned the Vatican to the pope and once again the RCC was back in business as a church /state adulteress union under the Lateran treaty.
And now the world wonders after the beast which had the wound by the sword and did live.
Like someone said, timing with God is everything.
Yes I agree about the ‘timing,’ it is important and yet we see that the vision concerns the time of the end and last end and the vision lasts for 2300 ereb boqer or six and a part years and the abomination of desolation set up is only for 1290 days and there are 1335 days ending at the same time which is mentioned in Daniel 12: 11, 12 respectively and is certainly not years. So with respect why is it that these biblical time spans are thrown out to fit an interpretation? I think it should be the other way around.
I have seen Number 14: 34 and Ezekiel 4: 4 - 6 used to try and justify changing days into years but when I read both their is an oxymoron problem with that idea.
Also there is to be war in Heaven and the sword is carried by Michael the only archangel that’s how the first beast receives his mortal wound and is warned so in Geneses 4: 10.
No pope resides in Heaven or has received a mortal wound from a sword and survived during a yet to occur war in Heaven.
Daniel is the hand and the glove is Revelation, they fit exactly without trying to change God’s word.

See Rev 12: And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, 8And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. 9And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. 10And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. 11And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
12Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
13And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child. 14And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
15And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood. 16And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
17And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

It is when Satan is cast out of Heaven that the beast with the mortal wound receives his power from Satan for only 42 months.
Rev 13: And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?
Rev 13: 5. “And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue FORTY TWO MONTHS.”

The beast only shows up when he and Satan are cast out of Heaven with all the fallen angels and that is yet to occur at the time of the end period.
It has nothing to do with Napoleon or Bertier in 1798 who was sent in after pope Pious.
The theory of adding 538 AD to 1260 years to get to 1798AD is straight out of the failed Millerite movement which Seventh Day Adventists still adhere to using 1844AD by taking 437BC from ‘2300 years’ somehow equaling 1844AD? How unfortunate that they think that the Heavenly sanctuary needs cleansing when it is about the polluting of the earthly sanctuary.

The date of 437BC was based on the 3rd ratification of Cyrus’ decree but it was not the date he signed it, it was after Darius ratified it and during the reign of king Artaxerxes that, that date was chosen by the Millerites and yet I still make the mathematical deduction of 1843. That idea 1798 is another reason I cannot agree to the changing of 2300 ereb boqer into years.

PC.

bennie
Dec 1st 2008, 01:17 AM
Hi Bennie.
I forgot one other thing.
I think it unwise to change words or take them away from prophecy.

That fact is made abundantly clear in Revelation 22: 18. For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
19. And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

I have found a well-established biblical correlation between the time spans of both the books of Daniel and Revelation concerning the eschatological time of the end and last end.
So to my simple way of thinking, changing the words of God through His messengers to fit an historic human interpretation in my opinion is extremely dangerous therefor unwise to say the least.
Sorry to be so blunt Bennie but I worry about it, it literally is a life and death situation..
PC


hi PC

blunt is good:D. How do you interpret the 70 weeks then? Do you count those as 70*7 days? Or do you consider them to be 70*7 years?

bennie

bennie
Dec 1st 2008, 01:21 AM
The four beast powers depicted in Daniel chapter 7: 3 to 7 are the lion, bear, leopard, and fourth beast most terrible and are around TOGETHER when verse 27 brings in the coming kingdom of God.
They are not associated with past empires biblically, if they are please show me the verse or verses?
The past empires were around in their given metal order, down through the Metal Empire Statue.
The last being Rome ending in 476AD.
Those empires were never all together as are the four beasts in Daniel 7: 3 – 7 when God sets up His everlasting kingdom Dan 7: 27 and God’s timing in these matters eliminates them as somehow being representative of those long gone historic Empires in any way shape or form.



The little horn rises during the reigns of the lion, bear, leopard, and fourth beast most terrible and is certainly not Rome, papal or otherwise in any way shape or form because the little horn has the power to cast out the stars/angels out of heaven to the Earth.


Daniel 8: 9. “And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land.”
10. “And it waxed great, to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them.”
What pope had the power to do that in the past?

That action was carried out by Satan the dragon at the time of God incarnate in Revelation 12: 1. “And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:”
2. “And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.”
3. And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold A GREAT RED DRAGON,having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.

4. AND HIS TAIL DREW THE THIRD PART OF THE STARS OF HEAVEN, AND DID CAST THEM TO THE EARTH: and THE DRAGON stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
5. And she brought forth A MAN CHILD, TO RULE ALL THE NATIONS WITH A ROD OF IRON: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.
6. And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.
May I suggest that the little horn is Satan.:note:


hi PC

you may suggest that the little horn is satan.:idea:. I do believe that as well. That notion does not go down well though with most people.

bennie

bennie
Dec 1st 2008, 01:29 AM
The above was the reason the Disciples spoke of seeing the Antichrist and antichrists, they were everywhere. There were people POSSESSED AT THAT TIME, evil spirits lurking in dwellings.

Rev 12: 8 – 17 when Satan and his evil angels are to be thrown out of Heaven down to Earth, I believe the same thing will happen again with evil spirits that is why I believe that those in Judaea are told not to go back into their homes.
Matthew 24: 15. When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
See the ‘set up’ for 1290 days in Daniel 12: 11.

Matthew 24: 16. Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:


Matthew 24: 17. Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: 18. Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.

‘Craft’ is an old English word for witchcraft.

Daniel 8: 24. And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people.
25. And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace (Greek; prosperity) shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.

26. And the vision of the evening and the morning which was told is true: wherefore shut thou up the vision; for it shall be for many days.
In my humble opinion the vision is for 2300 ereb/evening boqer/morning or 2300 days.


With great respect I can’t agree that the above is applicable to any pope. May I suggest dear Brakelite, that you may consider reading Isaiah 14: 7 – 17 to find the culprit who wants to sit on God’s mount at the sides of the North in Jerusalem, that is why the little horn heads to the Pleasant land.


The FEET OF IRON AND CLAY represent a time WAY AFTER the legs of iron, being the Roman Empire ending in 476AD. The statue is a Metal Empire Time Span Statue, each section being representative of an empire at a separate time span.



The fourth beast is a fallen angel he was around way back in Geneses 4 he was warned when told the following.
Geneses 4: 10. “And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.”

I am sorry to disagree again dear brakelite but to me a day means day and the vision is only for ‘1260 days’ An evening and a morning represents a day, if it were years it would not fit into the time of the end’s2300 ereb/evening boqer/morning time span and the Bible would have said year but it does not.

Daniel 8: 13. Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, HOW LONG shall be THE VISION concerning the daily (sacrifice,) and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot? 14And he said unto me, Unto TWO THOUSAND THREE HUNDRED DAYS; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.
The same term ‘2300 ereb/evening boqer/morning.’ is used for creation week, seven days.

Yes I agree about the ‘timing,’ it is important and yet we see that the vision concerns the time of the end and last end and the vision lasts for 2300 ereb boqer or six and a part years and the abomination of desolation set up is only for 1290 days and there are 1335 days ending at the same time which is mentioned in Daniel 12: 11, 12 respectively and is certainly not years. So with respect why is it that these biblical time spans are thrown out to fit an interpretation? I think it should be the other way around.
I have seen Number 14: 34 and Ezekiel 4: 4 - 6 used to try and justify changing days into years but when I read both their is an oxymoron problem with that idea.
Also there is to be war in Heaven and the sword is carried by Michael the only archangel that’s how the first beast receives his mortal wound and is warned so in Geneses 4: 10.
No pope resides in Heaven or has received a mortal wound from a sword and survived during a yet to occur war in Heaven.
Daniel is the hand and the glove is Revelation, they fit exactly without trying to change God’s word.

See Rev 12: And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, 8And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. 9And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. 10And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. 11And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
12Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
13And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child. 14And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
15And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood. 16And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
17And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

It is when Satan is cast out of Heaven that the beast with the mortal wound receives his power from Satan for only 42 months.
Rev 13: And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?
Rev 13: 5. “And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue FORTY TWO MONTHS.”

The beast only shows up when he and Satan are cast out of Heaven with all the fallen angels and that is yet to occur at the time of the end period.
It has nothing to do with Napoleon or Bertier in 1798 who was sent in after pope Pious.
The theory of adding 538 AD to 1260 years to get to 1798AD is straight out of the failed Millerite movement which Seventh Day Adventists still adhere to using 1844AD by taking 437BC from ‘2300 years’ somehow equaling 1844AD? How unfortunate that they think that the Heavenly sanctuary needs cleansing when it is about the polluting of the earthly sanctuary.

The date of 437BC was based on the 3rd ratification of Cyrus’ decree but it was not the date he signed it, it was after Darius ratified it and during the reign of king Artaxerxes that, that date was chosen by the Millerites and yet I still make the mathematical deduction of 1843. That idea 1798 is another reason I cannot agree to the changing of 2300 ereb boqer into years.

PC.

Hi PC

I will give you the reason that i say it is 2300 years and 1260 years. These are the rules i use to go by, to interpret appocolyptic prophecy. Every person needs a valid set of rules.


1. Each apocalyptic prophecy has a beginning and ending point in time and the events within each prophecy must occur in the order they are given.

2. A fulfilment of apocalyptic prophecy occurs when all of the specifications within that prophecy are met. This includes the order of events outlined in the prophecy.

3. Apocalyptic language can be literal, symbolic or analogous. To reach the intended meaning of a prophecy, the student must consider: (a) the context, (b) the use of parallel language in the Bible, and (c) relevant statements in the Bible that define that symbol if an element is thought to be symbolic.

4. God reckons apocalyptic time in two ways: (a) a day for a year, and (b) as literal time. The presence or absence of the Jubilee calender determines how God reckons time.


The jubilee calendar is in operation with the 2300 ereb/boger and the little horn of dan7.

bennie

Prophecy Countdown
Dec 1st 2008, 06:20 AM
Hi Bennie.


Bennie
blunt is goodfile:///C:/Users/Pieter/AppData/Local/Temp/msoclip1/01/clip_image001.gif.
That is kind of you to say that Bennie but the last thing I want is to offend you in any way and should I do inadvertently then I do apologies unreservedly and would ask your forgiveness.


Bennie
How do you interpret the 70 weeks then? Do you count those as 70*7 days? Or do you consider them to be 70*7 years?
We both know that at the end of Daniel chapter 8 the Prophet Daniel simply doesn’t understand the vision and says so in verse 27.
This is the vision that has nothing to do with the sacrifice of our Lord, that word is in italics indicating it was added.
The vision is of a 2300 ereb boqer duration, verse 14 concerns the time of the end verse17 the last end verse 19 and Grecia from the name Yavan/3120 was the father of the Western Gentiles nations in verse 21 see Gen 10: 4 - 5.

Daniel 8: 27. “And I Daniel fainted, and was sickcertain days; afterward I rose up, and did the king’s business; and I was astonished at the vision, but none understood it”

Gabriel turns up.

Daniel 9: 21. Yea, whiles I was speaking in prayer, even the man Gabriel, whom I had seen in the vision at the beginning, being caused to fly swiftly, touched me about the time of the evening oblation.

22. And he informed me, and talked with me, and said, O Daniel, I am now come forth to give thee skill and understanding.

The angel Gabriel knew that Daniel did not understand the vision concerning the time of the end and last end and was 2300 ereb boqer in duration and is about the Place of The Daily.

23. At the beginning of thy supplications the commandment came forth, and I am come to shew thee; for thou art greatly beloved: therefore understand the matter, and consider the vision.

Then Gabriel launches into the ‘weeks seventy’ as stated in IHGEB.
Daniel 9: 24. Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

From the Interlinear Hebrew Greek English Bible.

7620shabuwa` { shaw-boo’-ah} or shabua` { shaw-boo’-ah} also (fem.) sh^ebu`ah { sheb-oo-aw’}

properly, pass part of 7650 as a denom. of 7651; TWOT - 2318d; n m

AV - week 19, seven 1; 20[1] (http://bibleforums.org/#_ftn1)

The angel Gabriel Knows the time restraints upon Daniel’s chapter 8 vision and when he gives the explanation of it in Daniel chapter 9 he is subject to those time of the end and last end duration span restraints and upholds them.
I read it as said ‘shabuwa WEEKS seventy.’
PC

[1] (http://bibleforums.org/#_ftnref1)Enhanced Strong’s Lexicon, (Oak Harbor, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc.) 1995.

Prophecy Countdown
Dec 1st 2008, 06:48 AM
hi PC

you may suggest that the little horn is satan.:idea:. I do believe that as well. That notion does not go down well though with most people.

bennie

Hi Bennie, yes you are right however let them put up and so will we using scripture and let our peers decide.:bounce:

bennie
Dec 1st 2008, 08:36 PM
hi PC.

How is life in tazzie today? Just watched the Wales vs aus rugby game. It was good. Wales stuck it to you guys.:pp. LOL.

Here is a breakdown of how i read the Appocolyptic prophecys of daniel and revelation.

1)Dan2:31-35
2)Dan7:1-11
3)Dan8:1-12
4)Dan9:24-27
5)Dan11:2-35
6)Dan11:36-12:2

7)Rev4:1-6:17
8)Rev7:1-8:1
9)Rev8:2-9:21
10)Rev10:1-11:13
11)Rev11:14-19
12)Rev12:1-14:5
13)Rev14:6-15:4
14)Rev15:5-16:21
15)Rev18:1-8
16)Rev19:1-20:6
17)Rev20:7-21:1
18)Rev21:2-22:5

Rev17:1-18 is discussion
Rev22:6-21 is the epilogue


bennie.

Prophecy Countdown
Dec 2nd 2008, 06:09 AM
Hi PC

I will give you the reason that i say it is 2300 years and 1260 years. These are the rules i use to go by, to interpret appocolyptic prophecy. Every person needs a valid set of rules.


1. Each apocalyptic prophecy has a beginning and ending point in time and the events within each prophecy must occur in the order they are given.

2. A fulfilment of apocalyptic prophecy occurs when all of the specifications within that prophecy are met. This includes the order of events outlined in the prophecy.

3. Apocalyptic language can be literal, symbolic or analogous. To reach the intended meaning of a prophecy, the student must consider: (a) the context, (b) the use of parallel language in the Bible, and (c) relevant statements in the Bible that define that symbol if an element is thought to be symbolic.

4. God reckons apocalyptic time in two ways: (a) a day for a year, and (b) as literal time. The presence or absence of the Jubilee calender determines how God reckons time.


The jubilee calendar is in operation with the 2300 ereb/boger and the little horn of dan7.

bennie

Hi Bennie, it seems most reading the Bible, will see what they want to see with preconceived ideas and is human nature. The Bible is the authority concerning God’s word.

An interpretation altering His word transgresses Revelation 22: 18 – 19.

Please note capitals and colours are used for emphasis only.

Rev 22: 18. For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, IF ANY MAN SHALL ADD UNTO THESE THINGS, God shall add unto him THE PLAGUES that are written in this book:
19. And if any man shall TAKE AWAY FROM THE WORDS of the book of this prophecy, GOD SHALL TAKE AWAY HIS PART OUT OF THE BOOK OF LIFE of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
I have to ask where is that warning placed? Right at the end of the book Revelation which goes hand in hand with other great Prophets particularly Daniel chapters 7: - 12:
I think Revelation 22: 18 – 19 stops any notion of changing ‘2300 ereb boqer’ into ‘years.’

There is no biblical text that states ‘2300 years’ it states ‘ereb boqer’ which is used in Geneses for creation week.
The law of first usage takes primacy otherwise people can use the same idea and make a mockery of a 7 day creation week into 7 years, and 70 weeks into 70 years and Rev 11s 1260 days into 1260 years the 1335, 1290 days into years! Where does it all end?
It will end for those responsible at Rev 22: 18, 19. I was told by church leaders ‘2300 years’ but that is not biblical. Paul warns us of such things.

Ephesians 4: 14. That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;


Daniel 2 progresses quickly to the feet of iron and potter’s clay and Daniel chapters 7 – 12 is a progression and enlargement concerning the feet of iron and clay period referred to as the time of the end, last end, ‘time of trouble,’ within the 2300 ereb boqer given to Daniel within four visions.

The first vision was recorded as chapter 7: an overview. Second 8: Third 9: and the fourth vision chapters 10: 11: 12:
Observing Revelation 22: 18, 19 and seeing timed events in Revelation and Daniel we come into harmony with Dan 8: 13, 14 and prophecy falls into place.

I don’t see that being ‘apocalyptic,’ ‘literal,’ ‘symbolic’ or ‘analogous’ takes precedence over Rev 22: 18 – 19.
Simply reading plain Aramaic 2300 ereb boqer is in harmony with Revelation 22: 18, 19.

As far as symbols go, I personally believe they are put there for our edification. To me the vision concerning the time of the end nullifies the theory of the four beasts of Dan 7: 3 - 7 as somehow being representative of bygone empires as some suggest.
They existed separately down from the Metal Empire Time Statue’s head to it’s legs.

The four beast powers are at it’s feet of iron and potter’s clay around together at the time of the end the lion symbol is a match for Great Britain today, the Eagle’s wings represents the United States of America within the Alliance we have YAVAN/Grecia 3120. Gen 10: 4, 5.
When the alliance is broken up the UK/lion will lose its eagle’s wings and have to stand alone then the bear being the symbol of Russia, will rise and so will the Leopard then the fourth beast as seen in Gen 4: 10 being a fallen angel warned of the consequences of his actions and yes he will have his head bruised. See Gen 3: 15.
The third beast ‘leopard’, I don’t know its ID.

Now that is how I see the symbols, and there are lots more for the edification of those living at those specific times.
There are no biblical contradictions no breaking the rules, by trying to change the words of the testimony of Jesus.

We are under His authority and the Creator does not need men to disobey his instructions regarding how He should have used His wording He instructed John right through Revelation.
2 Timothy 2: 14. Of these things put them in remembrance, charging them before the Lord that they strive not about words to no profit to the subverting of the hearers.
15. Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

Apocalypse – Gk apocalypsis - revelation] - apocalyptic does not imply ‘(a) a day for a year,’ unquote. Revelation 22: 18, 19 puts an end to that.

Within the confines of Numbers 13: 34 and Ezekiel 4: 4 – 6 the intent and purpose is made clear it involved the Jewish nation’s disobedience in bygone times and is not contextually eschatological so to attach either of these mentioned passages to clearly stated prophetic time spans is at best a construct.

Let me show an exaggerated example of what I am saying bringing verses together that distort scriptural intent.

2 Samual 17: 23. And when Ahithophel saw that his counsel was not followed, he saddled his ass, and arose, and gat him home to his house, to his city, and put his household in order, and hanged himself, and died, and was buried in the sepulchre of his father.
Judges 7: 17. And he said unto them, Look on me, and do likewise: and, behold, when I come to the outside of the camp, it shall be that, as I do, so shall ye do.:rolleyes:


PC.

Prophecy Countdown
Dec 2nd 2008, 06:35 AM
hi PC.

How is life in tazzie today? Just watched the Wales vs aus rugby game. It was good. Wales stuck it to you guys.:pp. LOL.

Here is a breakdown of how i read the Appocolyptic prophecys of daniel and revelation.

1)Dan2:31-35
2)Dan7:1-11
3)Dan8:1-12
4)Dan9:24-27
5)Dan11:2-35
6)Dan11:36-12:2

7)Rev4:1-6:17
8)Rev7:1-8:1
9)Rev8:2-9:21
10)Rev10:1-11:13
11)Rev11:14-19
12)Rev12:1-14:5
13)Rev14:6-15:4
14)Rev15:5-16:21
15)Rev18:1-8
16)Rev19:1-20:6
17)Rev20:7-21:1
18)Rev21:2-22:5

Rev17:1-18 is discussion
Rev22:6-21 is the epilogue


bennie.

Hi Bennie. I am from the UK and came here to live so I am a little bit in the middle when it comes to sport, neutral so to speak.;)
Tasmania is COLD!

We are up in the high ground some 380 meters above sea level, it is six degrees C at the moment with high winds.
We had snow around two weeks ago on Black Bluff, yes it is supposed to be spring here ha ha.:rofl:

I love Wales and England we miss it but our children are here on the mainland and this place is out of the way a bit.
The way things are shaping up Bennie, I am glad we are here even though we miss our sons. There is only 500000 people living here and I like that.

'It is a bolthole for everyone' as my first son says for when times get a bit dodgy.

I will be having a look at your study method, thank you for going to all that trouble of putting it together and showing it to me.

I will need a bit of time though to read it, to do it justice.
All the best for Christmas Bennie and my prayers are with you and you dear loved ones.
PC

DurbanDude
Dec 2nd 2008, 12:45 PM
hi durbandude.

Dan8:19 He said: "I am going to tell you what will happen later in the time of wrath, because the vision concerns the appointed time of the end.

Now the question needs to be ask: Wich part of the vision concerns the time of the end?
We know who the ram is: "The two-horned ram that you saw represents the kings of Media and Persia."
We know who the goat is: "The shaggy goat is the king of Greece, and the large horn between his eyes is the first king."

The ownly other entity in the vision is the little horn.
Now we can say that the little horn was Antiochus, but that will meen that we went through the time of the end already. See what i mean?


".....and in its place four prominent horns grew up toward the four winds of heaven."Dan8:8

" Out of one of them came another horn...." Dan8:9

If you go on grammer alone, the little horn need to come out of the four winds.

IMHO a prophecy can only be fullfilled IF ALL the specifications withinn the prophecy are met. And the order of the prophecy is not broken. Everything must happen in its cronological order.

Bennie

Hi Bennie,

I don't swear by the KJV but it is often a more accurate translation so would never discount it:

KJV Dan 8:19 And he said, Behold, I will make thee know what shall be in the last end of the indignation: for at the time appointed the end shall be.

This is showing that this indignation (desecration of the temple) will end in an appointed time, and gives the appointed time , 2300 evenings and mornings after the desecration starts. Those around at that time could be reassured by scripture that the desecration would not be indefinite.

Also remember from Daniel's perspective the future destiny of Jerusalem was all the end-time. Whether the desecration of 165 BC or the coming of the Messiah in 26 AD , or the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD these were all significant end-time prophecies from Daniel's perspective.


As for grammar , I really don't see the big difference.

Veretax
Dec 2nd 2008, 03:50 PM
Hrms..... Where is this First Use principle found in the bible? Where does it come from? I've never heard anyone every speak so strongly about such a thing. Not that I agree or disagree, but I'm wanting to know why you interpret this way so that I can understand.

Now there are some places in the bible where God uses a Day to represent Year explicitly:

Example:

Eze 4:5 (http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=eze+4:5&version=nkj&st=1&sd=1&new=1&showtools=1) - Show Context (http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?passage=eze+4:5&version=nkj&context=1&showtools=1)For I have laid on you the years of their iniquity, according to the number of the days, three hundred and ninety days; so you shall bear the iniquity of the house of Israel.
Eze 4:6 (http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=eze+4:6&version=nkj&st=1&sd=1&new=1&showtools=1) - Show Context (http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?passage=eze+4:6&version=nkj&context=1&showtools=1)And when you have completed them, lie again on your right side; then you shall bear the iniquity of the house of Judah forty days. I have laid on you a day for each year. Anyhow. I seem to recall and I can't remember if it was IN Ezekial or Daniel, another prophecy where a day for a year, but can't seem to find it through my bible search engine (will do it the old fashioned way maybe tonight)

bennie
Dec 2nd 2008, 04:40 PM
hi Veretex

I dont know who you referenced to in you post. Me or PC or Durbandude?
I will post a more extensive post later on the day for a year idee.


bennie

Veretax
Dec 2nd 2008, 06:08 PM
hi Veretex

I dont know who you referenced to in you post. Me or PC or Durbandude?
I will post a more extensive post later on the day for a year idee.


bennie


I was referring to PC since he has repeated this sentiment at least 3 or 4 times in this thread, so I am wondering where this precept comes from.

Prophecy Countdown
Dec 3rd 2008, 03:51 AM
Hi Veretax.




Veretax

Hrms..... Where is this First Use principle found in the bible?
Hrms..... Where is this First Use principle found in the bible? Where does it come from? I've never heard anyone every speak so strongly about such a thing. Not that I agree or disagree, but I'm wanting to know why you interpret this way so that I can understand.
It isn’t in the Bible, The term ‘Principle of first usage takes primacy’ relates to the ‘source text (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Source_text),’ and its MEANING being faithfully translated to the ‘target language.’ The simple answer is accuracy. So we have the term ‘The law of primacy of first usage.’
Translation is the interpreting of the first used MEANING of an original text and the subsequent production of and equivalent text, likewise called a "translation," that communicates the SAME MESSAGE in another language. The text to be translated is called the ‘source text’ and the language that it is to be translated into is called the ‘target language.’
‘THE LAW of primacy of first usage’ is better explained below.
In law custom can be described as the established patterns of behaviour that can be objectively verified within a particular social setting.

A claim can be carried out in defence of ‘what has traditionally been practiced and accepted by law.’ Generally, customary law exists where a certain practice is observed and pertinent users consider it to be law opinio juris



When translating from a ‘source text,’ the meaning, of any word traditionally takes primacy over all other considerations, a well established tradition.
Hence the term ‘the law of first usage takes primacy’ regarding the meaning of the ‘source text when translating to the ‘target language.’

Veretax Now there are some places in the bible where God uses a Day to represent Year explicitly:
Example:

Eze 4:5 (http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=eze+4:5&version=nkj&st=1&sd=1&new=1&showtools=1) - Show Context (http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?passage=eze+4:5&version=nkj&context=1&showtools=1) For I have laid on you the years of their iniquity, according to the number of the days, three hundred and ninety days; so you shall bear the iniquity of the house of Israel.
Eze 4:6 (http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=eze+4:6&version=nkj&st=1&sd=1&new=1&showtools=1) - Show Context (http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?passage=eze+4:6&version=nkj&context=1&showtools=1)And when you have completed them, lie again on your right side; then you shall bear the iniquity of the house of Judah forty days. I have laid on you a day for each year. Anyhow. I seem to recall and I can't remember if it was IN Ezekial or Daniel, another prophecy where a day for a year, but can't seem to find it through my bible search engine (will do it the old fashioned way maybe tonight) </b>
Israel committed iniquity for 390 years and punishment was placed on one man for 390 days.
Israel committed eniquity for 40 days and the punishment was for 40 years.

We have two opposites.
Ezekiel 4: 6 we have Iniquity for 390 YEARS Punishment 390 DAYS.
Ezekiel 4: 6 we have Iniquity for 40 DAYS Punishment 40 YEARS.
I call that an oxymoron, so it can only work within the context of those verses.


In Ezekiel 4: 5, 6 we have a crime lasting 40 days and the punishment lasts 40 years.
God in that context does not change the time span of a year into a day or a day into a year. God simply punishes Israel 40 years for their crime lasting 40 days.

Numbers 14: 34 we have the same crime. 40 days crime, 40 years punishment

For each of the forty days they did the crime God, punished them 40 years. A day of crime a year of punishment.

Context.
Numbers 14: 34. After the number of the days in which ye searched the land, forty days, each day for a year, shall ye bear your iniquities, forty years, and ye shall know my breach of promise.

The 40 years punishment for a 40 days crime was for that generation, in context.
35. I the LORD have said, I will surely do it unto all this evil congregation, that are gathered together against me: in this wilderness they shall be consumed, and there they shall die.

36. And the men, which Moses sent to search the land, who returned, and made all the congregation to murmur against him, by bringing up a slander upon the land,
37. Even those men that did bring up the evil report upon the land, died by the plague before the LORD.

It was a punishment numbering 40 days of crimes resulting in 40 years of punishment and a reversal of 390 years of crimes resulting in 390 days of punishment which has nothing to do with
prophecy.

God does not change a day into a year regarding the 2300 ereb boqer because of Num 14: 34 – 37 or Ezekeal 4: 5, 6.
In Revelation 22: 18 – 19 we His children are told not to do it.
PC

Veretax
Dec 3rd 2008, 04:28 AM
Thanks for that explanation I think I see a bit better what you were saying now. And neither of those verses in ezekial deal much with prophecy by itself though. So eh..........Its late... Will return to the thread when I have something to add :D

Prophecy Countdown
Dec 3rd 2008, 05:01 AM
Thanks for that explanation I think I see a bit better what you were saying now. And neither of those verses in ezekial deal much with prophecy by itself though. So eh..........Its late... Will return to the thread when I have something to add :D

Take your time Veretax, thanks for your reply. I f you need more detail just ask, have a good rest.
PC