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Firstfruits
Nov 22nd 2008, 06:40 PM
Jesus said that the only way to enter Heaven is by the strait gate and we cannot enter in any other way.

If therefore those that take the broad road and go to the lake of fire should enter Heaven, would it be right to say it contradicts what Jesus has said?

Mt 7:13 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=7&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=13) Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

Lk 13:24 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=42&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=24) Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. :bible:

God bless!!

Firstfruits

Dragonfighter1
Nov 22nd 2008, 06:43 PM
Jesus said that the only way to enter Heaven is by the strait gate and we cannot enter in any other way.

If therefore those that take the broad road and go to the lake of fire should enter Heaven, would it be right to say it contradicts what Jesus has said?

Mt 7:13 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=7&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=13) Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

Lk 13:24 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=42&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=24) Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. :bible:

God bless!!

Firstfruits

I can't see anything logically or Biblically wrong with your statement.

Jesus is the strait gate, no other Saviour has the power/authority to save, but there are many easy believe ways and false faith that would have us follow there way to eventual hell and damnationhttp://www.feebleminds-gifs.com/smiley-faces-28.gif

mikebr
Nov 22nd 2008, 07:01 PM
Jesus said that the only way to enter Heaven is by the strait gate and we cannot enter in any other way.

If therefore those that take the broad road and go to the lake of fire should enter Heaven, would it be right to say it contradicts what Jesus has said?

Mt 7:13 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=7&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=13) Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

Lk 13:24 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=42&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=24) Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. :bible:



God bless!!

Firstfruits


We've been taught this but is that what Jesus was really saying.

13"Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.

You have to add a prior disposition to make it say Heaven.

Firstfruits
Nov 22nd 2008, 07:06 PM
I can't see anything logically or Biblically wrong with your statement.

Jesus is the strait gate, no other Saviour has the power/authority to save, but there are many easy believe ways and false faith that would have us follow there way to eventual hell and damnationhttp://www.feebleminds-gifs.com/smiley-faces-28.gif

Thank you Dragonfighter,

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Nov 22nd 2008, 07:08 PM
We've been taught this but is that what Jesus was really saying.

13"Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.

You have to add a prior disposition to make it say Heaven.

Knowing that there are only two destinations, Heaven or Hell, what do you believe regarding the question?

If therefore those that take the broad road and go to the lake of fire should enter Heaven, would it be right to say it contradicts what Jesus has said?

Firstfruits

Scruffy Kid
Nov 22nd 2008, 07:25 PM
Jesus said that the only way to enter Heaven is by the strait gate and we cannot enter in any other way.

If therefore those that take the broad road and go to the lake of fire should enter Heaven, would it be right to say it contradicts what Jesus has said? In Matthew, at any rate, the saying about entering by the narrow gate is in a very particular context: it introduces a set of sayings which conclude the Sermon on the Mount.
Enter in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leads to destruction, and there are many which go in there; because the gate is confining, and the way is narrow, which leads to life, and there are few who find it. (Matt 7:13-14

Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. You shall know them by their fruits. Do people gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? Even so every good tree brings forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree brings forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that does not bring forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Accordingly, by their fruits you shall know them. (Matt 7:15-20)

Not every one that says to me "Lord, Lord" shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; instead it's the one that does the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, "Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in your name? and in your name have cast out devils? and in your name done many wonderful works?" And then will I tell them plainly, I never knew you: depart from me, you who work iniquity. (7:21-24)

Therefore whoever hears these sayings of mine, and does them, I will compare him to a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it did not fall: for it was founded upon a rock. And every one that hears these sayings of mine and does not do them shall be compared to a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it. (Matt 7:24-27)

And it came to pass, when Jesus had ended these sayings, the people were astonished at his doctrine: For he taught them as one having authority, and not as the scribes. (Matt 7:28-29) There's nothing much about the lake of fire, here: what Jesus is emphasizing, it seems to me, is that it won't help us at judgment time to have talked about Jesus, or to have sincerely said we followed Him. The "contradiction" of Jesus's teachings, as developed in this passage, it seems to me, lies in hearing them but not doing them: He's telling us we need to live in generosity, love, peace, and trust in God, or else we face destruction, shipwreck of our lives and their meaning!

Rather, what counts is doing what He says to do. He makes it plain that lots of people will think they followed Jesus, but will instead be "workers of iniquity", evil-doers, because they failed to obey his commandments. They will think that they knew Him, but He will tell them He never knew them.

It's a terrifying passage! But the warning seems to be mainly to people who suppose that they are followers of Jesus. Each of the four groups of sayings here seems to make a similar point: that the road to life and peace is difficult, the road to destruction easy, and the big difference is taking the trouble to live as Jesus tells us to, to put his sayings into practice.

As to what we should put into practice, because it comes at the end of the Sermon on the Mount (chapters 5, 6, and 7), clearly it means that the things we must do are the things He's just been teaching in Matt 5:1-7:12.
Be humble and peaceful, don't be angry but rather forgive, reconcile your relationships with others, be chaste in mind and body, do not divorce, speak with scrupulous concern for honesty, do good to those who hate you, love your enemies, give to the needy, pray earnestly to God, our Father, in private, and forgive others, make heaven, not worldly things, your goal, and then do not worry or judge others. Come to God with confidence and believe, and ask for what you need. Therefore do to others as you would have them do to you! The path to avoiding destruction that Jesus lays out, here, is a path of love and service, humility and forgiveness, relying on God, and praying, and turning our hearts to love of God and love of human beings. It's not mainly about beliefs -- although there are some involved -- it's primarily about honest, gracious, forgiving, humble, loving conduct.

Firstfruits
Nov 22nd 2008, 11:10 PM
In Matthew, at any rate, the saying about entering by the narrow gate is in a very particular context: it introduces a set of sayings which conclude the Sermon on the Mount.

Enter in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leads to destruction, and there are many which go in there; because the gate is confining, and the way is narrow, which leads to life, and there are few who find it. (Matt 7:13-14

Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. You shall know them by their fruits. Do people gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? Even so every good tree brings forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree brings forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that does not bring forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Accordingly, by their fruits you shall know them. (Matt 7:15-20)

Not every one that says to me "Lord, Lord" shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; instead it's the one that does the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, "Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in your name? and in your name have cast out devils? and in your name done many wonderful works?" And then will I tell them plainly, I never knew you: depart from me, you who work iniquity. (7:21-24)

Therefore whoever hears these sayings of mine, and does them, I will compare him to a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it did not fall: for it was founded upon a rock. And every one that hears these sayings of mine and does not do them shall be compared to a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it. (Matt 7:24-27)

And it came to pass, when Jesus had ended these sayings, the people were astonished at his doctrine: For he taught them as one having authority, and not as the scribes. (Matt 7:28-29)
There's nothing much about the lake of fire, here: what Jesus is emphasizing, it seems to me, is that it won't help us at judgment time to have talked about Jesus, or to have sincerely said we followed Him. The "contradiction" of Jesus's teachings, as developed in this passage, it seems to me, lies in hearing them but not doing them: He's telling us we need to live in generosity, love, peace, and trust in God, or else we face destruction, shipwreck of our lives and their meaning!

Rather, what counts is doing what He says to do. He makes it plain that lots of people will think they followed Jesus, but will instead be "workers of iniquity", evil-doers, because they failed to obey his commandments. They will think that they knew Him, but He will tell them He never knew them.

It's a terrifying passage! But the warning seems to be mainly to people who suppose that they are followers of Jesus. Each of the four groups of sayings here seems to make a similar point: that the road to life and peace is difficult, the road to destruction easy, and the big difference is taking the trouble to live as Jesus tells us to, to put his sayings into practice.

As to what we should put into practice, because it comes at the end of the Sermon on the Mount (chapters 5, 6, and 7), clearly it means that the things we must do are the things He's just been teaching in Matt 5:1-7:12.

Be humble and peaceful, don't be angry but rather forgive, reconcile your relationships with others, be chaste in mind and body, do not divorce, speak with scrupulous concern for honesty, do good to those who hate you, love your enemies, give to the needy, pray earnestly to God, our Father, in private, and forgive others, make heaven, not worldly things, your goal, and then do not worry or judge others. Come to God with confidence and believe, and ask for what you need. Therefore do to others as you would have them do to you!
The path to avoiding destruction that Jesus lays out, here, is a path of love and service, humility and forgiveness, relying on God, and praying, and turning our hearts to love of God and love of human beings. It's not mainly about beliefs -- although there are some involved -- it's primarily about honest, gracious, forgiving, humble, loving conduct.

Thank you Scruffy Kid,

I understand what you are saying, would you therefore agree that if we do not live according to those points you have mentioned that the untimate destination is Hell, but if we do them the ultimate destination is Heaven, one being the Strait way and the other being the Broad way?

The message is the Kingdom of God, not that which is temporal.

Mt 6:19 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=19) Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal:

Mt 6:20 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=20) But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal:


God bless you!

Scruffy Kid
Nov 23rd 2008, 12:53 AM
Hi, firstfruits!

... Scruffy Kid, ... would you therefore agree that if we do not live according to those points you have mentioned that the untimate destination is Hell, but if we do them the ultimate destination is Heaven, one being the Strait way and the other being the Broad way?
God is the source of being, of love, of truth and beauty, of goodness, of light and happiness, peace and joy. The purpose of our life is that we might do as He desires, and live in love with Him, and one another. That's life's whole purpose, what we are made for.

Because, among other things, we are sinful mortals, our sin separates us from God. Also, of course, simply as mortals we do not have the strength of heart and being to dwell with God, the living God and source of all life. How then are we to attain the purpose God has for us, and our deepest desires to live in love with God, enjoying and glorifying Him for ever? This happens through, and only through, God's own son -- and our true brother, perfect God and perfect man, conqueror of sin and death, and victor over the grave -- our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

For us to be separated from God is utter ruination and misery; for us to be with God is fullness of goodness and joy far surpassing all we imagine or desire. Thus, the pivotal question for human life has to do with whether we will be able to attain to humanity's true end (life eternal with God) or not.

Jesus warns us with great urgency that we must repent and believe the good news, that we must put our trust in Him,and that we must open our hearts to God. He warns us so strictly, because the consdquences are unfathomably vast and crucial; and also because people easily drift into ways of thinking and acting which, even though God is acknowledge, or fanatically "worshipped" even, Thus, Jesus here and elsewhere instructs us about how to behave. Here, and other places, he emphasizes the need for us to seek first God's kingdom (or dominion) and glory.

That seems to be a major theme uniting this chapter!

Firstfruits
Nov 23rd 2008, 11:34 AM
Hi, firstfruits!

God is the source of being, of love, of truth and beauty, of goodness, of light and happiness, peace and joy. The purpose of our life is that we might do as He desires, and live in love with Him, and one another. That's life's whole purpose, what we are made for.

Because, among other things, we are sinful mortals, our sin separates us from God. Also, of course, simply as mortals we do not have the strength of heart and being to dwell with God, the living God and source of all life. How then are we to attain the purpose God has for us, and our deepest desires to live in love with God, enjoying and glorifying Him for ever? This happens through, and only through, God's own son -- and our true brother, perfect God and perfect man, conqueror of sin and death, and victor over the grave -- our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

For us to be separated from God is utter ruination and misery; for us to be with God is fullness of goodness and joy far surpassing all we imagine or desire. Thus, the pivotal question for human life has to do with whether we will be able to attain to humanity's true end (life eternal with God) or not.

Jesus warns us with great urgency that we must repent and believe the good news, that we must put our trust in Him,and that we must open our hearts to God. He warns us so strictly, because the consdquences are unfathomably vast and crucial; and also because people easily drift into ways of thinking and acting which, even though God is acknowledge, or fanatically "worshipped" even, Thus, Jesus here and elsewhere instructs us about how to behave. Here, and other places, he emphasizes the need for us to seek first God's kingdom (or dominion) and glory.

That seems to be a major theme uniting this chapter!

Thank you Scruffy Kid,

So as you have shown we have to make sure we are on the right road, and as the scripture tells us if we are on the wrong road and the master has closed the door, we shall want to enter but shall not.

Lk 13:24 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=42&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=24) Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.
Lk 13:25 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=42&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=25) When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are:
Lk 13:26 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=42&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=26) Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets.
Lk 13:27 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=42&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=27) But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.
Lk 13:28 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=42&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=28) There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.

We need therefore to heed the words of Christ.

Lk 13:24 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=42&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=24) Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

mikebr
Nov 23rd 2008, 08:36 PM
Knowing that there are only two destinations, Heaven or Hell, what do you believe regarding the question?

If therefore those that take the broad road and go to the lake of fire should enter Heaven, would it be right to say it contradicts what Jesus has said?

Firstfruits

I don't think it has anything to do with life and death but living and not living.

How many people do you know have the abundant life that Jesus promised? I believe that most of our lives lead to some sort of destruction not the Life that Jesus lived and promised us that we could have.

Most are intent to follow a set of rules and we live like the robots that we say God didn't make us.

I'm talking dancing like no one's watching. Living!:pp

Firstfruits
Nov 23rd 2008, 09:00 PM
I don't think it has anything to do with life and death but living and not living.

How many people do you know have the abundant life that Jesus promised? I believe that most of our lives lead to some sort of destruction not the Life that Jesus lived and promised us that we could have.

Most are intent to follow a set of rules and we live like the robots that we say God didn't make us.

I'm talking dancing like no one's watching. Living!:pp

Thanks Mikebr,

How does what you have said apply to the question?

If therefore those that take the broad road and go to the lake of fire should enter Heaven, would it be right to say it contradicts what Jesus has said?

Lk 13:24 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=42&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=24) Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.

Thanks

Firstfruits

mikebr
Nov 23rd 2008, 09:31 PM
Thanks Mikebr,

How does what you have said apply to the question?

If therefore those that take the broad road and go to the lake of fire should enter Heaven, would it be right to say it contradicts what Jesus has said?

Lk 13:24 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=42&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=24) Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.

Thanks

Firstfruits

Maybe I'm not making myself clear. I don't think the strait gate is heaven nor the broad way hell, lake of fire, etc.

Jesus was talking to a group of Jews who trusted in the old Covenant for their way of life. It led them to destruction. Read what happened to them in 70AD. I believe Jesus was talking about the soon coming judgment and destruction of Jerusalem. Read the first few verses in Luke 13.


People being sacrificed, and towers falling on their heads. Jesus told them they would likewise perish. They would die in the same way.

Firstfruits
Nov 24th 2008, 09:58 AM
Maybe I'm not making myself clear. I don't think the strait gate is heaven nor the broad way hell, lake of fire, etc.

Jesus was talking to a group of Jews who trusted in the old Covenant for their way of life. It led them to destruction. Read what happened to them in 70AD. I believe Jesus was talking about the soon coming judgment and destruction of Jerusalem. Read the first few verses in Luke 13.


People being sacrificed, and towers falling on their heads. Jesus told them they would likewise perish. They would die in the same way.

What is it that those that follow the broad way shall want to enter but will not be able to enter, with regards to the following?

Mt 7:21 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=7&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=21) Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mt 7:22 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=7&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=22) Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

Mt 25:11 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=25&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=11) Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.

Mt 5:20 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=20) For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

According to the scriptures, who/what is the Strait gate

Jn 14:6 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=14&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=6) Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Rom 3:12 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=12) They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

Rom 3:17 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=17) And the way of peace have they not known:

I hope that helps.

Firstfruits

RabbiKnife
Nov 24th 2008, 06:15 PM
Eternal life is the gift; heaven is just a destination.

Eternal life is a gift, not a reward. It is not earned. It exists only when my life is lived in Christ, and my salvation is made sure in him.

If the argument is that a certain lifestyle is required in order to obtain heaven, then I would categorically reject that.

If the argument is that a certain lifestyle as a general rule follows those that trust in Christ, then I would generally accept that.

However, we are not saved by our works or our lifestyles; we are saved in spite of them.

legoman
Nov 24th 2008, 06:44 PM
Thank you Scruffy Kid,

So as you have shown we have to make sure we are on the right road, and as the scripture tells us if we are on the wrong road and the master has closed the door, we shall want to enter but shall not.

Lk 13:24 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=42&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=24) Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.
Lk 13:25 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=42&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=25) When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are:
Lk 13:26 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=42&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=26) Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets.
Lk 13:27 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=42&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=27) But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.
Lk 13:28 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=42&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=28) There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.

We need therefore to heed the words of Christ.

Lk 13:24 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=42&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=24) Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Hi FF,

You forgot the last 2 verses in this section:

Luke 13:29 People will come from east and west and north and south, and will take their places at the feast in the kingdom of God.
Luke 13:30 Indeed there are those who are last who will be first, and first who will be last."


The first will be last, and the last will be first.

Legoman

threebigrocks
Nov 24th 2008, 07:01 PM
We've been taught this but is that what Jesus was really saying.

13"Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.

You have to add a prior disposition to make it say Heaven.

But what did Jesus plainly say?


Hi FF,

You forgot the last 2 verses in this section:

Luke 13:29 People will come from east and west and north and south, and will take their places at the feast in the kingdom of God.
Luke 13:30 Indeed there are those who are last who will be first, and first who will be last."


The first will be last, and the last will be first.

Legoman

What do you mean? Not understanding here legoman. :hmm:

Firstfruits
Nov 24th 2008, 08:42 PM
Eternal life is the gift; heaven is just a destination.

Eternal life is a gift, not a reward. It is not earned. It exists only when my life is lived in Christ, and my salvation is made sure in him.

If the argument is that a certain lifestyle is required in order to obtain heaven, then I would categorically reject that.

If the argument is that a certain lifestyle as a general rule follows those that trust in Christ, then I would generally accept that.

However, we are not saved by our works or our lifestyles; we are saved in spite of them.

Do we not need to live our lives in righteousness to obtain Heaven?

In order to be righteous do we not have to follow Christ?

We cannot live in unrighteousness and expect to enter heaven can we?

We are saved and are exprcted to put off the old man and to put on the new man, that means a change of lifestyle.

Thanks,

Firstfruits

RabbiKnife
Nov 24th 2008, 08:46 PM
Do we not need to live our lives in righteousness to obtain Heaven?

In order to be righteous do we not have to follow Christ?

We cannot live in unrighteousness and expect to enter heaven can we?

We are saved and are exprcted to put off the old man and to put on the new man, that means a change of lifestyle.

Thanks,

Firstfruits

Living a righteous life does not gain heaven. Living a righteous life is the normal result of following Jesus. Sin in the life of a believer does not keep one out of heaven. I am not saved because I am sinless. I am saved because the righteousness of Jesus is imputed to me by faith.

Righteous living is the result, not the method.

Firstfruits
Nov 24th 2008, 08:49 PM
Hi FF,

You forgot the last 2 verses in this section:

Luke 13:29 People will come from east and west and north and south, and will take their places at the feast in the kingdom of God.
Luke 13:30 Indeed there are those who are last who will be first, and first who will be last."


The first will be last, and the last will be first.

Legoman

These are those that have followed Christ;

Mt 19:29 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=19&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=29) And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life.
Mt 19:30 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=19&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=30) But many that are first shall be last; and the last shall be first.

I hope that explains the scripture you gave.

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Nov 24th 2008, 08:51 PM
Living a righteous life does not gain heaven. Living a righteous life is the normal result of following Jesus. Sin in the life of a believer does not keep one out of heaven. I am not saved because I am sinless. I am saved because the righteousness of Jesus is imputed to me by faith.

Righteous living is the result, not the method.

Why may I ask have you separated what I have given when all are important if we expect to enter Heaven?

Firstfruits

RabbiKnife
Nov 24th 2008, 09:08 PM
Because the only thing that matters in terms of "entering heaven" is a relationship with Jesus Christ. I can't get there in my own righteousness; only the righteousness of Christ imputed to me will do the job.

A believer will follow Christ and will be drawn by the Holy Spirit to live a life of righteousness; but righteousness from man's perspective is useless and filthy rags...as Paul describes it, "soiled menstrual cloths."

Sin in the life of a believer does not keep that believer out of heaven. It may be evidence that one is not a believer, but again, the issue is not "whether the believer sins" but "whether Jesus imputes his righteousness to you" or not.

If you are looking for a "a believer must live like X in order to obtain heaven" agreement from me, you won't get it. No Christian's life is satisfactory as to obtain heaven.

Firstfruits
Nov 25th 2008, 09:10 AM
Because the only thing that matters in terms of "entering heaven" is a relationship with Jesus Christ. I can't get there in my own righteousness; only the righteousness of Christ imputed to me will do the job.

A believer will follow Christ and will be drawn by the Holy Spirit to live a life of righteousness; but righteousness from man's perspective is useless and filthy rags...as Paul describes it, "soiled menstrual cloths."

Sin in the life of a believer does not keep that believer out of heaven. It may be evidence that one is not a believer, but again, the issue is not "whether the believer sins" but "whether Jesus imputes his righteousness to you" or not.

If you are looking for a "a believer must live like X in order to obtain heaven" agreement from me, you won't get it. No Christian's life is satisfactory as to obtain heaven.

Do the following scriptures show that we have to change our life style from one of unrighteousness to one of righteousness?

Rom 6:13 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=13) Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.

Rom 6:16 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=16) Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

Thanks Rabbiknife,

Firstfruits

John146
Nov 25th 2008, 07:57 PM
Maybe I'm not making myself clear. I don't think the strait gate is heaven nor the broad way hell, lake of fire, etc.

Jesus was talking to a group of Jews who trusted in the old Covenant for their way of life. It led them to destruction. Read what happened to them in 70AD. I believe Jesus was talking about the soon coming judgment and destruction of Jerusalem. Read the first few verses in Luke 13.


People being sacrificed, and towers falling on their heads. Jesus told them they would likewise perish. They would die in the same way.Everyone physically dies, including believers. He could not possibly have been speaking of physical life and death in those verses. He clearly is referring to the fact that the way to eternal life is narrow while the way to eternal destruction is broad. The way to eternal life is narrow because there is only one way: through faith in Jesus Christ (John 3:16, John 3:36, John 14:6, Acts 4:12, etc.). Any other way leads to destruction and results in a person being condemned to hell and, on judgment day, the lake of fire.

mikebr
Nov 25th 2008, 09:11 PM
Everyone physically dies, including believers. He could not possibly have been speaking of physical life and death in those verses. He clearly is referring to the fact that the way to eternal life is narrow while the way to eternal destruction is broad. The way to eternal life is narrow because there is only one way: through faith in Jesus Christ (John 3:16, John 3:36, John 14:6, Acts 4:12, etc.). Any other way leads to destruction and results in a person being condemned to hell and, on judgment day, the lake of fire.

There's a huge difference in living and being alive. What's your understanding of the abundant life that Jesus spoke of?

John146
Nov 25th 2008, 09:38 PM
There's a huge difference in living and being alive. What's your understanding of the abundant life that Jesus spoke of?My understanding is that only believers have it and all true believers have it. No unbelievers have it. It's having that peace that passes understanding. It's having the joy of Christ in us through the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. That feeling of love for God and our fellow man. That feeling of the future hope of the glorious appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ and also the redemption of our bodies.

Regardless of that, how can we think that Jesus is speaking of anything but entering into the kingdom of heaven in Matthew 7:13? We have to look at the context.

13Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
14Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
15Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
16Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
17Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
18A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
19Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
21Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

By looking at the context, we can see that Jesus was speaking about entering into the kingdom of heaven on the day of judgment. Therefore, He was speaking in terms of everlasting life in contrast with everlasting destruction or everlasting separation from the presence of the Lord.