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White Spider
Nov 23rd 2008, 12:27 AM
Anyone more knowledgeable in this area than I am please contribute.

I am not necessarily looking for interpretations of events and what they might be, but more just the order they go in, we can leave the symbolism and literalism discussion for another time. (Or at least we can try.)

So some questions to get us started:

What event signifies the tribulations beginning? Is there a single event that signifies this?

Do the Seals go from 1-7 then the trumpets 1-7 and so on or are they not in order?

What events happen before the tribulation? (What I mean is, we are asked to watch, what exactly are we watching for?)

Quick Example:

Seal 5 ~ "and they were told to wait a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and brothers who were to be killed as they had been was completed"
It seems to me that the Rapture has not happened yet as those in heaven are told to wait while the rest are martyred.

Shortly after there is seen a multitude in white robes who are those who have come out of the tribulation. Seems the rapture has happened now.

Trumpet 5 ~ And out of the smoke locusts came down upon the earth" . . . "they had power to torment people for five months" . . . "but only those people who did not have the seal of God on their foreheads"
They are not allowed to torture those who worship God. It seems we are back to before a Rapture.

NOTE: I use the word Rapture pretty loosely, forgive me if that is the incorrect word to have used in the instances above.

There is a lot of repetitiveness and back tracking it seems so anyone with a good understanding of not just Revelation, but all End Times prophesy and the events involved please help.

Thanks in advance. I hope this will be a chance for all of us to learn a little bit.

looking4jesus
Nov 23rd 2008, 02:16 AM
Anyone more knowledgeable in this area than I am please contribute.

I am not necessarily looking for interpretations of events and what they might be, but more just the order they go in, we can leave the symbolism and literalism discussion for another time. (Or at least we can try.)

So some questions to get us started:

What event signifies the tribulations beginning? Is there a single event that signifies this?

Do the Seals go from 1-7 then the trumpets 1-7 and so on or are they not in order?

What events happen before the tribulation? (What I mean is, we are asked to watch, what exactly are we watching for?)

Quick Example:

Seal 5 ~ "and they were told to wait a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and brothers who were to be killed as they had been was completed"
It seems to me that the Rapture has not happened yet as those in heaven are told to wait while the rest are martyred.

Shortly after there is seen a multitude in white robes who are those who have come out of the tribulation. Seems the rapture has happened now.

Trumpet 5 ~ And out of the smoke locusts came down upon the earth" . . . "they had power to torment people for five months" . . . "but only those people who did not have the seal of God on their foreheads"
They are not allowed to torture those who worship God. It seems we are back to before a Rapture.

NOTE: I use the word Rapture pretty loosely, forgive me if that is the incorrect word to have used in the instances above.

There is a lot of repetitiveness and back tracking it seems so anyone with a good understanding of not just Revelation, but all End Times prophesy and the events involved please help.

Thanks in advance. I hope this will be a chance for all of us to learn a little bit.

Part of the answer what are you watching for is the Rapture remember as a thief in the night. Also Christans will get a special reward for watching.
Folks it is going to happen matters ot what you think will happen so be prepared. Many will be surprise on that day because they are saved will be Raptured but since they do not belive in Rapture it will be a strong awakening for sure.
God bless
Randy

vinsight4u8
Nov 23rd 2008, 02:38 AM
Have you considered that Daniel 11:21 is where the man of sin comes to power? You can look backwards and forward in the chapter to see what happens around that time.

Just before he rules in the land of the north - was in his estate place a ruler that is a raiser of taxes, just before that time comes the end of a huge war with Iraq, Egypt and Israel.

Iraq - king of the north
Egypt - king of the south

This prophecy has in verse 14 a part as to robbers that fall - this is why I expect the Palestinians to go down.

vinsight4u8
Nov 23rd 2008, 02:43 AM
I believe that the seals have already started and the 4th one will be this vile person rider of Iraq that was prophesied by Habakkuk for the end and to be Chaldean.

See Habakkuk 2 and link that vision for the end up with the vision that was shown to the prophet in chapter 1.
God would raise up the nation of the Chaldeans - they would be a bitter and hasty nation.

I understand the trumpets to begin with the 4th seal -for it takes the man with many weapons before they start. Only the fourth seal rider has many weapons listed for that seal time.

4th seal - man of sin ruler of Iraq (kills by sword, hunger, death, beasts)
5th seal - the great tribulation
6th seal - trib is over and rapture of the church
Jesus has appeared,,,freed Jerusalem from the clutches of the man of Iraq and takes the church - the all changed crowd of saints home to heaven. The time of salvation has come and now follow the events of Rev. 19-20.

vinsight4u8
Nov 23rd 2008, 03:01 AM
Just a note - Rev. 7 has been written as an "after" section. We are to let John finish the 6th seal - and then slide in a new message. This part is not to take place as in all after the 6th seal. John is being shown a part that includes some of the seal times just given to him.

Rev. 7 - starts about the time of the 4th seal - takes John then to the start of the 7th seal.

So - we now have,,,

144,000 sealed
4th seal rider is opened
is the one that will scatter Israel off of her land
some of Israel flees to safety for 1260 days

5th seal - the great tribulation against the church
and Israel

6th seal - trib is over signs
rapture of the church
men on earth hide

Then comes the message of the 7th seal.
silence in heaven

John sees again the once had trumpets angels. He will now tell their seen earlier story.
The trumpet angels have now become the angels with the seven vials of God's wrath.

vinsight4u8
Nov 23rd 2008, 03:15 AM
Notice the wording by John to his readers.

Rev. 8:2
"And I saw the seven angels...."

the seven

so - John had already seen them before

wombat
Nov 27th 2008, 01:41 AM
Anyone more knowledgeable in this area than I am please contribute. I am not necessarily looking for interpretations of events and what they might be, but more just the order they go in, we can leave the symbolism and literalism discussion for another time. (Or at least we can try.) What event signifies the tribulations beginning? Is there a single event that signifies this?
Do the Seals go from 1-7 then the trumpets 1-7 and so on or are they not in order? What events happen before the tribulation? (What I mean is, we are asked to watch, what exactly are we watching for?)
Hi, White Spider! Before I start with some possible answers, I need to admit that I am not any more knowledgeable than you are, my friend--these are just my suspicions of what will be before and after the tribulation begins. Some things I am personally watching for before the tribulation is a war between Israel and the Muslim nations which would relate to the prophecy of Psalm 83. I don't think that will be the same time when Gog comes against Israel--that would be later, I suspect. A peace treaty between Israel and the Palestinians or between Israel and all of the Muslim nations, whether before or after such a war, would be something to keep an eye out for--and especially if someone from the Revived Roman Empire says they will "confirm" the treaty for a period of 7 years. I think that will be the starting point for the tribulation.

I also suspect that the first seal of Revelation has already been broken this year (though that is a matter that we all could debate endlessly I bet). The second seal, if I am correct about the first seal, could happen with the war between Israel and her neighbors. I suspect the antiChrist treaty will happen sometime during the 2nd Seal phase. If the Rapture is pre-trib, I think it will happen at about the time of the treaty, but I have a sneaking suspicion that it will happen mid-trib. I'm hoping for the best, but preparing for the worst. :saint:

third hero
Nov 27th 2008, 05:07 AM
White Spider,
It is my opinion that anything that does not make sense is not true. For instance, there are those who say that the 1st seal is the Antichrist, when nothing in this book that is evil has the designation of white attached to it. (God, Lord Jesus, the Tribulation saints, the White Robes, just to name a few things with the color white attached to it). Therefore, since it does not make sense, it is not true.

Another concept that does not make sense. The 7 seals, seven trumpet, and t he seven bowls all happening concurrently. Look at a couple of passages and see what I am talking about.

And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour. And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets. -Revelation 8:1-2

The seven angels with the seven trumpets aren't even given their trumpets until the seventh seal is broken, as verse 2 testifies. The trumpets can not be blown until after the seven seals are broken, and because of that, the seven seals doctrine falls on it's face. You can find the example of the seven vials not even being created until the Tribulation saints are slain, which happens after the seventh trumpet is blown, (Revelation 11:15-15:8). Therefore, if something does not make sense, do not believe it.

According to scripture, we see that the signs in Revelation, except for the ones that describe the major characters of a certain period of time (Great Tribulation, Revelation 13-14, 17), happen in a sequential order. That makes sense, and as such, it must be true. One of the defining moments in Revelation is in chapter 12, when the devil, enraged, first goes after Israel, and then after the believers. This point is marked in several spots in the NT, including Matthew 24:15-22 and 2 Thessalonians 2:3-4. This is called, the Abomination that causes desolation.

The Abomination that causes desolation, the point where the man of sin will stand in the Holy Place in the temple and proclaim his godhood, is the single event that changes everything. According to other scripture, other things are going to happen before, most notibly the blowing of the fifth and sixth trumpets, where there is a massive war that consumes 1/3rd of mankind, and the two prophets warn the entire world of the advent of the Beast, (Revelation 8-11).

I hope this helps you out a little.

Cyberseeker
Nov 28th 2008, 09:51 AM
So some questions to get us started:

What event signifies the tribulations beginning? Is there a single event that signifies this?

Do the Seals go from 1-7 then the trumpets 1-7 and so on or are they not in order?

Hi White Spider. I posted this back in July but you may not have seen it. The vision of Revelation overlaps in a pattern of sevens. For example, the trumpets do not follow after the seventh seal. The trumpets ARE the seventh seal.

Likewise, the bowls do not follow after the seventh trumpet. The bowls ARE the seventh trumpet.

This is difficult to explain so here is a diagram I put together to explain it visually. Hope it helps.

Cyber

http://5loaves2fishes.net/node/191?size=_original
__________________

White Spider
Nov 30th 2008, 06:49 PM
Just wanted to say I am sorry I have not been able to be on lately. I do not have time to really reply now, but I just wanted to say I read through all your posts and I thank you all for the help.

threebigrocks
Nov 30th 2008, 07:12 PM
Do this.

Make a strip of paper or whatever is handy (cut up an 8.5 x11 piece) into a strip for each set of events. One for the seals, one for the bowls, etc. Divide each strip into 7 sections so that they are the same equal spaces on each piece. Write in each of the sections a small summary for each event, including the verse. When I did this I had to write small.

When you are all done - slide the strips so that the similar events line up. Play around with it! It paints an interesting picture, and will give you an awful lot to think about and send you into studying things that help to make sense of it.

Check out Matthew 24 and 1 Thessalonians 2 and see how that guides you too. In Matthew - Christ gives an outline of the events and Paul uses Christ's words for the same thing in Thessalonians. ;)

Roelof
Feb 1st 2009, 04:18 AM
white spider

My view point is that key Last Days events can not be confined to discrete time modules. There are overlaps and phasing in. Nowhere in the Bible is a project programme giving start and finish dates for key eschatology events. We will never read in the newspapers that the Great Tribulation started world-wide at 6am that morning. It will be phased in, with the developed countries starting with high technology techniques 1st, and slavery in 3rd world countries, all orchestrated by the world powers.

DurbanDude
Feb 4th 2009, 07:34 AM
Hi White Spider,

The view of the seven year tribulation period is based on Daniel 9:27, which speaks of this last seven year period. But this view is debatable, preterists saying that Jesus confirmed the covenant and put an end to sacrifice 3.5 years later, that this is all past. Futurists say that this seven years is still to come.

If we just study the NT, we see that the great starting sign of the tribulation period according to Jesus, and according to Thessalonians is the abomination, the unholy thing on the temple mount, the man who declares himself God.

Then Revelation mentions a 3.5 year period again and again, a period of Satan's great wrath on earth, persecution of the saints, and world domination.

So I prefer to stick to the non-debatable issues, the tribulation starts with the abomination and lasts for 3.5 years until Jesus comes.

This is a futurist view, but I do agree with preterists regarding the first half of Daniel 9:27 being fulfilled by Jesus, any other interpretation of this 3.5 year period makes no sense to me.


As for the 7 seals /trumpets/bowls I believe they all end with a great earthquake, they have the same ending point but different starting points.

ScottJohnson
Feb 9th 2009, 05:25 PM
Hi Durban Dude,


Hi White Spider,

The view of the seven year tribulation period is based on Daniel 9:27, which speaks of this last seven year period. But this view is debatable, preterists saying that Jesus confirmed the covenant and put an end to sacrifice 3.5 years later, that this is all past. Futurists say that this seven years is still to come.

If we just study the NT, we see that the great starting sign of the tribulation period according to Jesus, and according to Thessalonians is the abomination, the unholy thing on the temple mount, the man who declares himself God.

Then Revelation mentions a 3.5 year period again and again, a period of Satan's great wrath on earth, persecution of the saints, and world domination.

So I prefer to stick to the non-debatable issues, the tribulation starts with the abomination and lasts for 3.5 years until Jesus comes.

This is a futurist view, but I do agree with preterists regarding the first half of Daniel 9:27 being fulfilled by Jesus, any other interpretation of this 3.5 year period makes no sense to me.


As for the 7 seals /trumpets/bowls I believe they all end with a great earthquake, they have the same ending point but different starting points.


There is one points I'd like to make here;

Jesus makes no mention of an unholy thing on the Temple Mount or a man that declares himself to be God. He does make mention of an abomination that causes desolation however....

Then when you see the abomination of desolation, which was spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (the one reading, let him understand), then let those in Judea flee into the mountains;
(Mat 24:15-16)

Rather than 2 Thes chapter 2, the identity of the "Abomination of Desolation" could be better described in Luke's account of the Olivet Discourse where the phrase "abominaton of desolation" is changed to "Jerusalem being encircled by armies".

And when you see Jerusalem being encircled by armies, then recognize that its destruction has come near. Then let those in Judea flee into the mountains; and those in its midst, let them go out. And those in the open spaces, let them not go into her.
(Luk 21:20-21)


It becomes debatable when you equate 2 Thes 2:3-9 with Matt 24:15.

Roelof
Feb 10th 2009, 05:51 AM
... especially if someone from the Revived Roman Empire says they will "confirm" the treaty for a period of 7 years. I think that will be the starting point for the tribulation.

I also suspect that the first seal of Revelation has already been broken this year (though that is a matter that we all could debate endlessly I bet). The second seal, if I am correct about the first seal, could happen with the war between Israel and her neighbors. I suspect the antiChrist treaty will happen sometime during the 2nd Seal phase. If the Rapture is pre-trib, I think it will happen at about the time of the treaty, but I have a sneaking suspicion that it will happen mid-trib. I'm hoping for the best, but preparing for the worst. :saint:

wombat

I support all of what you said.

My view points is that the Final Tribulation has already started in some parts of the world.
To prevent cross posting, I refer to my thread
LAST DAYS – MORE LIGHT ON THE GREAT TRIBULATION
http://bibleforums.org/showpost.php?p=1934069&postcount=15

I agree that some seals were opened by Jesus, namely the 1st and 3rd seal

FINAL TRIBULATION – THE SEALS #1
http://bibleforums.org/showpost.php?p=1976056&postcount=159 (http://bibleforums.org/showpost.php?p=1976056&postcount=159)

My interpretation is that the Final Tribulation already started, I support your view of a mid-trib Rapture


I agree that the Revived Roman Empire will (is already) playing a major role in the Last Days, and that the Antichrist might come from the Mediterranean Union (MU), which is a combination of the EU and Mediterranean countries.

DurbanDude
Feb 10th 2009, 07:00 AM
Hi Durban Dude,




There is one points I'd like to make here;

Jesus makes no mention of an unholy thing on the Temple Mount or a man that declares himself to be God. He does make mention of an abomination that causes desolation however....

Then when you see the abomination of desolation, which was spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (the one reading, let him understand), then let those in Judea flee into the mountains;
(Mat 24:15-16)

Rather than 2 Thes chapter 2, the identity of the "Abomination of Desolation" could be better described in Luke's account of the Olivet Discourse where the phrase "abominaton of desolation" is changed to "Jerusalem being encircled by armies".

And when you see Jerusalem being encircled by armies, then recognize that its destruction has come near. Then let those in Judea flee into the mountains; and those in its midst, let them go out. And those in the open spaces, let them not go into her.
(Luk 21:20-21)


It becomes debatable when you equate 2 Thes 2:3-9 with Matt 24:15.

I agree with you that some people debate those issues that I said are not debatable, so you can critisize me there. Yes , preterists do see the AoD differently. Yet if I read all those chapters, Daniel 2, Daniel 7, Daniel 8, Daniel 9, Daniel 11, and Daniel 12, Revelation, the gospels and Thessalonians a more complete picture emerges of a final 3.5 year period starting with an abomination at the temple. I understand the argument of comparing the varous gospel accounts and coming up with the "armies" theory, yet I believe in the progressive fulfilment of those end-times verses of the gospels, because they certainly were not fulfilled already by any stretch of the imagination, yet were definitely partially fulfilled at 70 AD. The starting point of the future portion is different in two of the accounts, accounting for the strange conclusion of the preterists that "armies" are an abomination.

ScottJohnson
Feb 12th 2009, 06:38 AM
I agree with you that some people debate those issues that I said are not debatable, so you can critisize me there. Yes , preterists do see the AoD differently. Yet if I read all those chapters, Daniel 2, Daniel 7, Daniel 8, Daniel 9, Daniel 11, and Daniel 12, Revelation, the gospels and Thessalonians a more complete picture emerges of a final 3.5 year period starting with an abomination at the temple. I understand the argument of comparing the varous gospel accounts and coming up with the "armies" theory, yet I believe in the progressive fulfilment of those end-times verses of the gospels, because they certainly were not fulfilled already by any stretch of the imagination, yet were definitely partially fulfilled at 70 AD. The starting point of the future portion is different in two of the accounts, accounting for the strange conclusion of the preterists that "armies" are an abomination.
No matter how you shake a stick at it though, when Jesus warns of the abomination of desolation, He's still speaking of the destruction of the temple and Jerusalem which happened in 70 AD. It's important to keep in mind that Jesus was addressing four of His disciples during the first half of the first century and not people 2,000 years into their future. It's also safe to say that you would be hard pressed to find a more likely abomination that causes desolation than a large army. Armies are very destructive. Particularly the one that destroyed Jerusalem in 70 AD.

billy-brown 2
Feb 19th 2009, 02:06 AM
No matter how you shake a stick at it though, when Jesus warns of the abomination of desolation, He's still speaking of the destruction of the temple and Jerusalem which happened in 70 AD. It's important to keep in mind that Jesus was addressing four of His disciples during the first half of the first century and not people 2,000 years into their future. It's also safe to say that you would be hard pressed to find a more likely abomination that causes desolation than a large army. Armies are very destructive. Particularly the one that destroyed Jerusalem in 70 AD.

Yep . . . what he said . . . . ^^^^^;)

DurbanDude
Feb 19th 2009, 06:36 AM
No matter how you shake a stick at it though, when Jesus warns of the abomination of desolation, He's still speaking of the destruction of the temple and Jerusalem which happened in 70 AD. It's important to keep in mind that Jesus was addressing four of His disciples during the first half of the first century and not people 2,000 years into their future. It's also safe to say that you would be hard pressed to find a more likely abomination that causes desolation than a large army. Armies are very destructive. Particularly the one that destroyed Jerusalem in 70 AD.

Nope, an antichrist that controls armies throughout earth, and declares himself as God, and is accepted as god throughout earth is a more destructive abomination. He would be more abominable and more destructive than one Roman army. Of course your interpretation involves a figurative interpretation of the antichrist of Thessalonians, most os us still prefer a literal interpretation. Just like the destruction of 70 AD was fulfilled literally, so too will the "man of sin" be fulfilled literally. And this just by its nature is the ultimate abomination and its only historic similarity is that of Antiochus. The destructions of the temple during the Babylonian era and during the Roman era were not ongoing abominations , yet the bible indicates that the final abomination will last a few years.

2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

The following describes an abomination, an ongoing "image" that has to be worshipped. The definition of an abomination is :1.anything abominable; anything greatly disliked or abhorred.
13:12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.
13:13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
13:14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.
13:15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

This image is more to be abhorred by God than the Roman army, which attacked when God's blessing had left Israel.

iconoclast2012
Feb 20th 2009, 06:20 PM
...Hey there spider, the very best description of end time events is given by the Lord himself in the three end time gospel chapters, Mt.24;MK;13;& Lk;21.....& take notice that the very first thing the Lord mentions in each chapter before He begins His discourse...."Take heed that no man decieve you".....an interesting read can be found here...http://www.standeyo.com/index1.html....then scroll down to feb.10...