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Phalanx
Nov 23rd 2008, 04:05 AM
Hello,

I would like to know the exact meaning of the word 'stripes' in the following passage:

"By His stripes you were healed."

Thanks.

Phalanx

divaD
Nov 23rd 2008, 04:29 AM
Hello,

I would like to know the exact meaning of the word 'stripes' in the following passage:

"By His stripes you were healed."

Thanks.

Phalanx


You'll need to read Isaiah ch 53. But I will say this, many in the Charismatic circles misapply this verse to mean healing, as in the one's of miracles. If one recalls, before Jesus ever suffered and died, many were healed by Him. So, if it's by His stripes that people are miracously healed, then how were anyone healed before this passage was fullfilled?


Isaiah 53:5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.


This same verse tells us what we are healed of.

VerticalReality
Nov 23rd 2008, 04:36 AM
You'll need to read Isaiah ch 53. But I will say this, many in the Charismatic circles misapply this verse to mean healing, as in the one's of miracles. If one recalls, before Jesus ever suffered and died, many were healed by Him. So, if it's by His stripes that people are miracously healed, then how were anyone healed before this passage was fullfilled?

Actually, most in the charismatic circle are not just referring to the Isaiah 53:5 passage when talking about physical healing. This passage makes reference here . . .



Matthew 8:16-17
When evening had come, they brought to Him many who were demon-possessed. And He cast out the spirits with a word, and healed all who were sick, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Isaiah the prophet, saying:

“ He Himself took our infirmities
And bore our sicknesses.”

Diolectic
Nov 23rd 2008, 05:05 AM
Hello,

I would like to know the exact meaning of the word 'stripes' in the following passage:

"By His stripes you were healed."
1Pe 2:24 Who his own self bore our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripe (singular) you were healed.

The stripe here is the blow that the Father gave Him.
Isa 1:5 Why should you be stricken any more? you will revolt more and more: the whole head is sick, and the whole heart faint.
Isa 1:6 From the sole of the foot even unto the head there is no soundness in it; but wounds, and bruises, and putrefying sores: they have not been closed, neither bound up, neither soothed with ointment.
The healing is not medical, but as Isaiah puts it, it is to heal us from the effects of our choice to sin.

Isa 53:5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
Since this verse is relating our transgressions & iniquities to medical wounds, we may conclude that these stripes may be for the physical, medical healing along with the healing from the effects of our choice to sin.

Lamplighter
Nov 23rd 2008, 05:15 AM
The Hebrew word for stripes in Isiah 53:5 is (chabbuwrah) it means wound.

The Greek word for stripes in 1 Peter 2:24 is (molops) it means wound.

What is the context of 1 Peter 2:24? It's not talking about physical healing, it's talking about spiritual healing.

Scruffy Kid
Nov 23rd 2008, 01:48 PM
Dear Phalanx,
Welcome to Bibleforums! :hug:
It's great to have you here!! :pp :pp :pp

You ask a good question!
I would like to know the exact meaning of the word 'stripes' in the following passage:

"By His stripes you were healed."

The Quotation Itself: I Peter 2:24.

The phrase "by his stripes you were healed" occurs two places: in Isaiah 53:5, and in I Peter 2:24.

The passage in First Peter is primary, because it speaks of Christ Jesus, explicitly. It's set in the context of Peter using Jesus's example as a model of how Christians ought to behave, and specifically, ought (in almost all circumstances) not to be rebellious toward the government. However, in the process of giving this piece of practical advice to Christians living under a hostile government (that of the Roman Empire), Peter is also developing his Christology, that is, his teaching about who Christ is. That has importance apart from the specific context, for it helps define (clarify) for us what Jesus' saving work is.
Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that you should follow His steps: For He did not sin, neither was guile (deceit) found in His mouth: Also, when He was reviled, he did not reviled again; when He suffered, He did not threatened; but He committed Himself to Him that judges righteously: Who His own self bore our sins in His own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by Whose stripes you were healed. For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and overseer of your souls. (I Peter 1:22b-25) The Quotation Itself: Isaiah 53:5-6.

This passage has many echoes of Biblical prophecy from the OT (Old Testament, or Tannukh), and from other parts of the NT (New Testament) as well. The BIble speaks of Jesus as our Shepherd again and again (Psalm 23, Luke 15, John 10, I Peter 5, etc.) and often in the context of us being sheep going astray. (See Luke 15, Ps. 119:176, Jer. 50:6) But the reference in I Peter 1 is clearly to Isaiah 53:6 "All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all." -- the verse right before the verse "by his stripes you were healed, in Isaiah 53!

I will quote the entirety of Isaiah 53, boldfacing verse 6 which Peter quotes -- from Isaiah 53:6 says:
Who has believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed? For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.

He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not. Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth. He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken. And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.

Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand. He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities. Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he has poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bore the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

The Word "Stripes" -- meaning "wounds", especially whip-cuts

As Lamplighter helpfully points out, the words (in Greek, the language of the NT, and Hebrew, the language of the OT) which are translated "stripe" in English mean "wound". The translation "stripes" is a bit old-fashioned. The word "stripes" occurs in the King James, or Authorized translation (KJV, or AV) 7 times in the OT (Deut 25:3; 2 Sam. 7:14; Ps. 89:32; Prov. 17:10; Prov. 19:29; Prov. 20:30; Is. 53:5) and 8 times in the NT (Lk. 12:47; Lk. 12:48; Acts 16:23; Acts 16:33; 2 Cor. 6:5; 2 Cor. 11:23; 2 Cor. 11:24; 1 Pet. 2:24). These are places where the wounds in question apparantly were cuts of a whip, which look like "stripes" on the body; that was why the translators chose that word.

The significance, or meaning, of the passage

Isaiah's passage is one of several "Suffering Servant" passages, written about a figure, the Suffering Servant, who was the representative of God who came to redeem God's people by bearing their sins. This figure was understood by the Jews perhaps mainly as the nation of Israel itself, or as the Messiah. Once Christ came, however, Christians at once after the resurrection -- perhaps instructed by Jesus on this point -- understood this figure as referring most directly to Jesus Himself. That is how Peter understands the passage he is quoting.

The idea is that Christ "bears our sins" and iniquity: that He takes on Himself the burden of our messed-up lives and also the punishment that our sins and failures inevitably incur. Thus, He takes our brokenness, condemnation, guilt and shame upon Himself. God "lays on Him the iniquity of us all." The sentence "by His stripes we are healed" is one of a series of phrases in Isaiah 53 which conveys this basic idea. This is the idea which Peter expresses by saying "He bore our sins in his body on the tree" ("tree" here means "cross", of course).

Christ Jesus was wounded for us and by us -- by nails, spear, crown of thorns, crucifixion, and by being flogged (whipped with a metal-weighted whip) -- and also by desertion of his friends, mocking, disrespect, and hatred of His enemies. We wound ourselves -- we do violence to ourselves and our own humanity -- by many things we do. Jesus takes all that upon Himself, to set us free. The primary wound each of us bears is the wound caused by our own sins. Through what He did for us on the cross, Jesus heals that wound.

Peter is also emphasizing that Christ, taking our sins on Himself and dying, put our sins to death, so that we should live in utmost righteousness, obeying and loving God and loving those around us -- even our enemies, just as Christ did. In this way, God gives us the opportunity to let our lives reflect Christ's life, and for His power to be at work within us, healing our attitudes and lives, and turning our heart from sin to the goodness of Jesus, and also in this way to bear witness to others of Jesus' goodness!!

kenrank
Nov 24th 2008, 05:26 PM
The word translated as "stripes" is:

(1,2) khab-boo-raw', (3) khab-oo-raw'From H2266; properly bound (with stripes), that is, a weal (or black and blue mark itself): - blueness, bruise, hurt, stripe, wound.

From the root word (H2266) we can see in context that we are united, or probably a more familiar word...reconciled....to him through his wounds, his pain, his hurt, his stripes...the marks placed on him.

Hope that helps.
Ken

Literalist-Luke
Nov 24th 2008, 05:44 PM
"Stripes", as others here have already correctly explained, refers to the wounds that Jesus received in the process of his torturing and execution.

When Isaiah wrote that we are "healed", anybody should be able to see (if they'll even bother to take the time to read the whole chapter) that us being healed from diseases had nothing to do with that statement whatsoever. I go to a church where a lot of people try to take it as meaning that, because Jesus died on the cross, then we are now entitled to being "healed" of our diseases, e.g. cancer, and what have you. And then when two people died recently in our church, both of cancer, these people were going around in shock. But after a while they simply decided that somebody just wasn't exercising enough faith and they went right back to their Benny Hinn mentality. These people drive me absolutely insane.

Jesus' stripes heal us from our SINS - nothing more, nothing less. If you try to ascribe anything more to it without the passage's context giving you license to do so, you WILL be disappointed someday, and you might blame God or somebody else for not having enough faith, when in truth, it was your own fault.

OK, that's my rant for the day.

Phalanx
Nov 25th 2008, 03:52 AM
First, I want to thank everyone for their input, and a special thanks to Scruffy Kid for a very warm welcome :)

It would appear then, regardless of the context of the word stripe(s), one can still pray for healing and receive it as God has already demonstrated through His countless miracles.

matthew94
Nov 25th 2008, 05:19 AM
I think a better question to ask would have been 'what does 'healed' mean in that passage?' It's clearly talking about spiritual healing.

Literalist-Luke
Nov 25th 2008, 05:46 AM
I think a better question to ask would have been 'what does 'healed' mean in that passage?' It's clearly talking about spiritual healing.Agreed totally. There is no license given there to expect physical healing in this life. What's more, the very fact that everybody dies is proof that there will be at least one time in our life that "healing" absolutely will not happen. (And spare me the usual "What if we get Raptured" line - we can't count on that until it happens.)

Phalanx
Nov 25th 2008, 12:16 PM
I think a better question to ask would have been 'what does 'healed' mean in that passage?' It's clearly talking about spiritual healing.

I knew the meaning of the word 'healed'; it was the context of the word 'stripes' relative to it that required further clarification for me.

Thanks.

kenrank
Nov 25th 2008, 12:59 PM
Heal in the verse is the Hebrew word rapha. It means to make whole, heal, or repair.

Isaiah 53 is simply the Good News, the gospel, in prophecy. It is actually akin to:

Rom 5:10 For if, being enemies, we were restored to favour with Elohim through the death of His Son, much more, having been restored to favour, we shall be saved by His life.

I think we tend to "spiritualize" too much. When I first started going to church, (I was 29) I had an ex-Baptist now Pentacostalish guy working on one side, and a Jehovah's Witness on the other. We worked 8-10 hour days side by side. WOW....if you can have been a fly on the wall for some of those discussions. Here I was, all wet behind the ears, (but growing quickly) and a fully trained JW relentlessly pounding me with scripture. He would get so mad, he would hand me some verses to go home and read...and wanting to know the truth regardless of what direction it took me, I would go home and read them. But as I did, his verses would lead to others, God guiding me through His Word..and I would go back the next day with a verse or two for him, and his face would get so red. (LOL) I so wish he were around now....

But from that I did learn that not everything a JW teaches is wrong. There are facets to that faith that are very relevent. One of them, though they have the dates pretty messed up, is when Messiah returns as King, we live here, on earth, and NOT in heaven. We may have glorified bodies, we may be incorruptable, but like Messiah who ate with his disciples after his resurrection, we too will have a physical body and will eat.

My point is, it isn't wrong to look at the spiritual side of scripture. But be careful not to spiritualize everything. Isaiah 53 is the gospel, Yahushua Messiah was sinless, beaten, and by those two actions we are reconciled back to God if we first believe and then walk in His will.

Peace to you.
Ken

VerticalReality
Nov 25th 2008, 02:10 PM
Again, the physical healing aspect of Isaiah 53 is not necessarily in verse 5. However, I will not say that verse 5 cannot include physical healing.

In Matthew 8 the physical healing aspect is more from verse 4 of Isaiah 53. Granted, I agree that not everyone is going to experience healing. However, I'm not one to say that is God's fault, and He just doesn't want folks to be well. IMO there isn't any question in my mind that in God's perfect will there is health and wellness. I believe His Word declares it, and I believe folks will experience it in part through faith. The problems, IMO, arise from the fact that we, as a fallen people, do not always experience God's perfect will and walk totally by faith. This always strikes a cord in folks because it's a position that demands accountability from people, but it's one that I believe is truth.

In my opinion, based upon God's Word, there's just no way for me to say honestly that God doesn't want His children well. Every example that I know of where the will of the Lord was made clear . . . He willed for folks to be well. Every single person that came to Jesus in faith was made well. God even proclaimed to Israel under the Old Covenant that He wanted them well. Certainly if it were not God's will that His people be well then we would have been shown that example from our Savior Himself. Not one person who ever came to Jesus in faith was rejected or turned away. I know this is tough for a lot of folks to hear, and it is certainly not the most popular position. However, it is one that I will still hold to regardless based upon my understanding of the Scriptures.

kenrank
Nov 25th 2008, 02:18 PM
VR>> In my opinion, based upon God's Word, there's just no way for me to say honestly that God doesn't want His children well.

>>Of course he wants us well, I hope I didn't lead you to that impression. I see, and this is me, Isaiah 53 as a prophecy of the gospel in general. I don't think it is a physical healing it is talking about, I think it is an eternal healing!

I do think too may take verses like this, and others, and make it so physical it becomes a movement. Somebody mentioned on this thread about some people who died in their congregation and the Benny Hinn mentality of "well their faith must not have been strong." I see this as extremely ignorant and selfish! God wants us well, but we all die. We get "shamed" by these types who question our faith because we end up on an anti-biotic or something. I bet these same preachers claim to have gone on vacation when they end up in bed with the flu.

Ok...that was MY rant for the day.
peace.
Ken

VerticalReality
Nov 25th 2008, 02:25 PM
VR>> In my opinion, based upon God's Word, there's just no way for me to say honestly that God doesn't want His children well.

>>Of course he wants us well, I hope I didn't lead you to that impression. I see, and this is me, Isaiah 53 as a prophecy of the gospel in general. I don't think it is a physical healing it is talking about, I think it is an eternal healing!

I do think too may take verses like this, and others, and make it so physical it becomes a movement. Somebody mentioned on this thread about some people who died in their congregation and the Benny Hinn mentality of "well their faith must not have been strong." I see this as extremely ignorant and selfish! God wants us well, but we all die. We get "shamed" by these types who question our faith because we end up on an anti-biotic or something. I bet these same preachers claim to have gone on vacation when they end up in bed with the flu.

Ok...that was MY rant for the day.
peace.
Ken

I cannot limit Isaiah 53 to just being spiritual because when Jesus healed the sick and cast demons out of folks in Matthew 8 it referred back to Isaiah 53 proclaiming that prophecy was being fulfilled with Jesus doing so. I believe this proves that Isaiah 53 has both a spiritual and physical aspect to it.

John146
Nov 25th 2008, 05:59 PM
I think a better question to ask would have been 'what does 'healed' mean in that passage?' It's clearly talking about spiritual healing.Agree. The stripes refer to His blood and to be "healed" means to be spiritually redeemed, forgiven, reconciled, saved and justified.

Matt 26:26 And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed it, and brake it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body. 27And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it;
28For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

Romans 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. 9Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
10For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

Eph 1:7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

Col 1:12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:
13Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
14In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:

Eph 2:11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
12That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
13But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

1 Peter 1:18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;
19But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

1 John 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

Rev 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,
6And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

John146
Nov 25th 2008, 06:11 PM
Again, the physical healing aspect of Isaiah 53 is not necessarily in verse 5. However, I will not say that verse 5 cannot include physical healing.

In Matthew 8 the physical healing aspect is more from verse 4 of Isaiah 53. Granted, I agree that not everyone is going to experience healing. However, I'm not one to say that is God's fault, and He just doesn't want folks to be well. IMO there isn't any question in my mind that in God's perfect will there is health and wellness. I believe His Word declares it, and I believe folks will experience it in part through faith. The problems, IMO, arise from the fact that we, as a fallen people, do not always experience God's perfect will and walk totally by faith. This always strikes a cord in folks because it's a position that demands accountability from people, but it's one that I believe is truth.

In my opinion, based upon God's Word, there's just no way for me to say honestly that God doesn't want His children well. Every example that I know of where the will of the Lord was made clear . . . He willed for folks to be well. Every single person that came to Jesus in faith was made well. God even proclaimed to Israel under the Old Covenant that He wanted them well. Certainly if it were not God's will that His people be well then we would have been shown that example from our Savior Himself. Not one person who ever came to Jesus in faith was rejected or turned away. I know this is tough for a lot of folks to hear, and it is certainly not the most popular position. However, it is one that I will still hold to regardless based upon my understanding of the Scriptures.Certainly, Jesus healed many physical disabilities, illnesses and diseases and He wanted people to not only be spiritually well, but physically well, also. However, that may not always be the case. There can be exceptions. He may want to leave someone with a disability or an illness if He can use that for His purposes. If people can see how such a person retains their faith despite their circumstances then that can have a strong affect on them and lead them to Christ.

We shouldn't think that Job lacked faith just because he had painful sores all over his body, right? So, we have to be careful how we look at this and not assume that if someone has a disability, is sick or has a disease that it means they don't have faith. It's always possible that God, instead of healing someone, would rather see someone's faith tested or for others to see the faith of someone whose faith does not depend on their circumstances.

VerticalReality
Nov 25th 2008, 06:31 PM
However, that may not always be the case. There can be exceptions. He may want to leave someone with a disability or an illness if He can use that for His purposes. If people can see how such a person retains their faith despite their circumstances then that can have a strong affect on them and lead them to Christ.

I understand what you're saying, and I realize that many believe the very same way as you here. However, based upon my studies of the Scriptures I cannot come to the same conclusion. I do not see any examples in Scripture of the Lord ever leaving someone sick to be an encouragement to others. In fact, I see the exact opposite. I see the Lord healing people and delivering them from the oppression of the enemy in order to bring glory to His name and be a source of encouragement to others who may be in the same situation . . . that if they would believe on His name then they would be delivered also.


We shouldn't think that Job lacked faith just because he had painful sores all over his body, right?

Unless Job was divine he certainly lacked faith in areas. We all do. In fact, I think the book of Job shows that God used that entire situation to show Job an awful lot about Him that Job did not know or have faith for prior. The conclusion of the book of Job ends with Job taking on a whole knew concept of who God is, and he discovers that perhaps he didn't know God as well as he thought he did before his trial. Additionally, based upon what I see elsewhere in the Scriptures, had Jesus been there with Job . . . and Job came to Him in faith he would have been healed.


So, we have to be careful how we look at this and not assume that if someone has a disability, is sick or has a disease that it means they don't have faith. It's always possible that God, instead of healing someone, would rather see someone's faith tested or for others to see the faith of someone whose faith does not depend on their circumstances.

But again, I don't see this example anywhere in the Word of God. Nowhere does it state that a person desired healing but God left them in their state because it brought encouragement to other people in the same situation. This is a concept that I believe many like to believe because it makes them feel better or more comfortable in the situation they or someone they know may be in. However, I do not see this example in the Word at all. I have to base what I believe about healing around what happens in Scripture, and in the Word everyone who came to the Lord in faith was healed.

Now, I'm always open for anything knew, and I certainly do not proclaim to have everything figured out. However, in the abundance of Scriptures I have studied in the Word related to the topic of healing, nowhere is there a place where I can point to of an instance when someone came to the Lord for healing and it was told to them that it wasn't His will or that He didn't want them well.

I realize that such a stance might hurt some folks' feelings, and I do believe that a lot of the church's theology today is based around this because they don't want to come across harsh. However, I have to stick with what I see as the truth of God's Word.

Clay Blucher
Nov 25th 2008, 06:34 PM
Isaiah uses metaphorical diseases throughout the book (e.g., blindness, deafness, and lameness). Reading the Targums of Isaiah makes this clearer. So in its original context of Isa 53, healing means being able to follow the Law (spiritual healing).

But in the Gospels we see Jesus doing actual physical healings. There is the chance that these stories are supposed to be interpreted as metaphorical healings and not historical events. This was surely what John the Baptist expected, and why he questioned Jesus as being the Messiah. Instead of a defense of "I have come to (spiritually) save Israel" as John expected, Jesus replied with reports of actual physical healing.

Matt 11,4 Jesus answered them, “Go and tell John the things which you hear and see: 5 the blind receive their sight, the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, the deaf hear, the dead are raised up, and the poor have good news preached to them. 6 Blessed is he who finds no occasion for stumbling in me.”

These physical healings are in contrast to the community of Qumran, which believed that people with physical disabilities would not participate in community activites or the eschatological salvation.

So in essence when you get to 1 Peter, these healings are probably a both/and variety instead of either/or. These are both spiritual and physical healings, since both are signs of God's redemptive power. So even though we experience spiritual healing in the present, at the judgement we will be given new bodies that are signs of physically healing. We cannot dismiss either, as both are part of the eschatological reality that awaits us.

kenrank
Nov 25th 2008, 06:38 PM
I cannot limit Isaiah 53 to just being spiritual because when Jesus healed the sick and cast demons out of folks in Matthew 8 it referred back to Isaiah 53 proclaiming that prophecy was being fulfilled with Jesus doing so. I believe this proves that Isaiah 53 has both a spiritual and physical aspect to it.

There is physical aspects to it VR, I see that. I am just treading lightly because too many turn a set of verses like this into a, "well, if you are sick you must not have faith." That end of it is hogwash.

Ken

John146
Nov 25th 2008, 07:11 PM
I understand what you're saying, and I realize that many believe the very same way as you here. However, based upon my studies of the Scriptures I cannot come to the same conclusion. I do not see any examples in Scripture of the Lord ever leaving someone sick to be an encouragement to others. In fact, I see the exact opposite. I see the Lord healing people and delivering them from the oppression of the enemy in order to bring glory to His name and be a source of encouragement to others who may be in the same situation . . . that if they would believe on His name then they would be delivered also. I'm talking about exceptions, not the rule. I find it a bit difficult to believe that you don't even allow exceptions to the rule. God knows the big picture. How can you say that is not potentially beneficial for someone to be ill if it could help lead to someone else being led to Christ as a result of being inspired by that person retaining their faith despite their circumstances?


Unless Job was divine he certainly lacked faith in areas. We all do. In fact, I think the book of Job shows that God used that entire situation to show Job an awful lot about Him that Job did not know or have faith for prior. The conclusion of the book of Job ends with Job taking on a whole knew concept of who God is, and he discovers that perhaps he didn't know God as well as he thought he did before his trial. Additionally, based upon what I see elsewhere in the Scriptures, had Jesus been there with Job . . . and Job came to Him in faith he would have been healed.Are you suggesting that what happened to Job was because of a lack of faith? I hope not because he probably had more faith than anyone. Look at what God Himself said about Job:

Job 1:8 And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?

Imagine going through what he went through and try to imagine how easy it would be to retain your faith. I'm sure it wouldn't be easy at all no matter how much faith you think you have.


But again, I don't see this example anywhere in the Word of God. Nowhere does it state that a person desired healing but God left them in their state because it brought encouragement to other people in the same situation. This is a concept that I believe many like to believe because it makes them feel better or more comfortable in the situation they or someone they know may be in. However, I do not see this example in the Word at all. I have to base what I believe about healing around what happens in Scripture, and in the Word everyone who came to the Lord in faith was healed.Okay, that's fine. If we can't find an example in scripture of that scenario then you're not going to believe it's possible. I can respect that. But we do have examples in scripture, like Job, of people being left, at least for a time, in difficult circumstances including physical difficulties for the purpose of them being tried and tested. What do you say about that?

Are people tried and tested because they lack faith or because God likes His people to be tried and tested so that they will come out of it refined and better off than they were before? My whole point is that we shouldn't think that if someone is suffering physically then it means they lack faith. That is not necessarily the case. And it's not necessarily the case that God wants them to be healed immediately if He's still in the process of allowing them to be tried and tested.

VerticalReality
Nov 25th 2008, 07:16 PM
John146,

I really would love to discuss this with you, and you have brought up some valid points of consideration. Believe me, I have heard and chewed on the very points you are bringing up quite extensively. However, at the present time the family and I are headed out of town for Thanksgiving. I will be returning in a few days, and if this topic is still around then I will be glad to join back in when I have more time. Till then God bless to you all, and enjoy the time with family . . .

John146
Nov 25th 2008, 07:42 PM
John146,

I really would love to discuss this with you, and you have brought up some valid points of consideration. Believe me, I have heard and chewed on the very points you are bringing up quite extensively. However, at the present time the family and I are headed out of town for Thanksgiving. I will be returning in a few days, and if this topic is still around then I will be glad to join back in when I have more time. Till then God bless to you all, and enjoy the time with family . . .It's not a crucial topic for me, so don't feel any obligation to say any more than what you have. I certainly believe strongly in God being willing to heal people if they only have faith that He will. I'm just saying that there can be exceptions, depending on His plans, and therefore we can't say that if someone has a physical ailment of some kind that it necessarily means that they don't have enough faith to ask for healing. And I do believe that Isaiah 53 is mainly about spiritual healing, if not entirely.