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WritingRose
Nov 29th 2008, 06:44 AM
Someone on another message board has made a very long list of supposed contradictions. I have been wittling away at his list, posting my rebuttles, using the KJV. Here is one, for example:

EX 12:13 The Israelites have to mark their houses with blood in order for God to see which houses they occupy and "pass over" them.
PR 15:3, JE 16:17, 23:24-25, HE 4:13 God is everywhere. He sees everything. Nothing is hidden from God.


ppp

Just how, pray tell, is this a contradiction? Or an error? (I cut some out here)

God uses symbols all throughout the Bible. God uses symbols to keep certain truths prominent in our minds. God uses rituals to keep certain truths prominent in our mind. Such as the Lord's Supper- "This do in rememberance of me."

Perhaps the blood of the lambs on the doorposts have an extremely significant meaning? Perhaps He asked the Isrealites to do this for THEIR own good, for THEIR memory's sake? Perhaps the act of applying the blood to the doorpost was a "faith without works is dead" thing? If they believed the Lord, then they would act on it by applying the blood. Our faith is shown by our works, and applying the blood to the doorposts demonstrated their faith, their righteousness, their sonship, if you will. See, this was a form of the gospel- the blood on the doorposts foreshadowed the blood of The Lamb, Jesus Christ, being applied to the hearts of men and women who receive Him as Savior.

God obviously asked that the blood be applied to the doorposts for His children's sake, and not at all for His own- unless you want to say this was His way of establishing between Himself and the Isrealites who among them were truly 'saved', righteous people.

And here is another one, which I haven't fully replied to yet... I believe I know how this is resolved, but I would really like some more feedback.

Thanks!

EX 20:5, 34:7, NU 14:18, DT 5:9, IS 14:21-22 Children are to suffer for their parent's sins.
DT 24:16, EZ 18:19-20 Children are not to suffer for their parent's sins.

EZ 18:19 Yet say ye, Why? doth not the son bear the iniquity of the father? When the son hath done that which is lawful and right, and hath kept all my statutes, and hath done them, he shall surely live.

20The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

Deuteronomy 24:16 The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin.

Oo

Exodus 20:5

5Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; ***********

EX 34:7Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth generation.

Numbers 14:18 The LORD is longsuffering, and of great mercy, forgiving iniquity and transgression, and by no means clearing the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation.

DT 5: 9Thou shalt not bow down thyself unto them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me,

Isaiah 14:22For I will rise up against them, saith the LORD of hosts, and cut off from Babylon the name, and remnant, and son, and nephew, saith the LORD.

OOOOOOOOO

Let's see if anyone else sees what I see. Anyone care to comment?

Studyin'2Show
Nov 29th 2008, 01:01 PM
This is the way I see the father/son issue. The children visiting the iniquity is much different than being 'judged' for the sin. Here's an example. My grandfather was a heavy drinker and womanizer, my mother turned into a functional alcoholic, I became a functional drug addict, and now my daughter has become a functional shopaholic. You see, that propensity to over-indulge is something that has visited four generations. That, I believe, is the iniquity that God informs us will travel down generational lines. That being said, when I stand before Him at the judgment, I will not be held accountable for the things my grandfather or mother have done. They will have to give an account for their own choices. I see no contradiction in this.

God Bless!

thepenitent
Nov 29th 2008, 10:11 PM
Norman Geisler has a book "When critics ask" which responds to virtually every supposed "contradiction" in the Bible. Good book.

Bob Carabbio
Dec 1st 2008, 08:50 PM
Well - to begin with, if you judge the Bible in soley intellectual reasonings as "Legal evidence", and your hypothesis is that it MUST BE TOTALLY PERFECT - right down to the punctuation, and that if there is ANY error or misstatement in it, you CAN'T TRUST ANY of it - you've already lost the battle. There are errors of fact, and contradictions both real and supposed in the text. They're not particularly significant one way or another, but they DO eliminatew the "Perfect" status of the work (and by the way just WHICH "Bible" are we talking about the 1611 KJV, the NKJV, the NIV, the OASB, the NASB?)

The busy little theologians who NEED TO keep the "Perfection" fantasy alive will always have "rationalizations" for what this or that really ISN'T - what it clearly is. There are any number of lists on the 'net of the "Problems", so no need to post 'em here.

Theology, after all is fundamentally the art of distilling "Hard doctrine" from a text that presents opposing views on many things: Is it "Free Will" or "Predestination"?? Answer: "Yes! it's both". Problem solved.

What academic theologians forget is that the AUTHOR of the Bible is available to us to give "Wisdom" - whenerver we REALLY want it.

Bottom line: The Bible as we have it is TOTALLY Adequate to is purpose which is to REVEAL the person of God, and the Person of his son/our Saviour.
2 Tim 3:
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

The Word isn't a material source for the manufacture of Dogma, and it's not an "Instruction manual" for Christians to be legalistically beaten with.

Studyin'2Show
Dec 1st 2008, 09:01 PM
Then Bob, if it's free will AND predestination then there's no contradiction, which is the point. Why mock that fact? We may not all agree on interpretation but I would hope we can agree on this. :confused

God Bless!

kenrank
Dec 3rd 2008, 07:21 AM
The only contradictions I have seen, and I spent some time looking for them, is translational errors. We were warned by Messiah to "beware of the scribes." What do we have now? 300 different bible versions, and because of copyright laws, they have to by law be different. Even in the KJV, however, there are a few errors. But that does NOT in any way take away from the manuscripts they are based on, or the original letters.

One other problem is differences in theological beliefs by translators. For example, in the NIV...which I am NOT bashing...just using it as an example...one translator who translated one book was a Calvinist, while another who did another book was Armenian, and so forth. So you actually have conflicting theologies within the bible. One book translated from one perspective, another using another perspective...and it becomes at odds with itself.

The way around it, IMHO, is to get a bible where the Tanach (OT) is based on the Massoretic texts, and the NT based on the received texts. (each has passed the test of time) Then and always, pray before reading. Ask God for clarity and understanding. It has to be HIM who reveals the contents anyway.

Peace.
Ken

Studyin'2Show
Dec 3rd 2008, 12:05 PM
Thanks for that perspective, Ken! I agree. The ultimate, of course, would be to learn Hebrew, Greek, and Aramaic and to then go to the original manuscripts but who has the time. :D I'm glad that it has been translated into a language I am comfortable with but I am aware that there can be subtle changes in meanings based on the translation of a few words here and there. We have to be careful to 'rightly' divide the word. Learn as much as possible to gain clarity and absolutely pray before reading. When I first began my serious study I always made sure to pray for both revelation and understanding. Maybe I should get back into the habit of doing that. :)

God Bless!

kenrank
Dec 3rd 2008, 04:55 PM
Thanks for that perspective, Ken! I agree. The ultimate, of course, would be to learn Hebrew, Greek, and Aramaic and to then go to the original manuscripts but who has the time. :D I'm glad that it has been translated into a language I am comfortable with but I am aware that there can be subtle changes in meanings based on the translation of a few words here and there. We have to be careful to 'rightly' divide the word. Learn as much as possible to gain clarity and absolutely pray before reading. When I first began my serious study I always made sure to pray for both revelation and understanding. Maybe I should get back into the habit of doing that. :)

God Bless!

If you don't mind....not very long ago I downloaded e-sword. ( I believe it is www.e-sword.net (http://www.e-sword.net)) This is a bible program that has many bible versions, allows you to compare verses from each at the same time. It has a built in Strong's concordance which I use ALL the time. Just put your cursor over the word and the original word is there with it's meanings. (and some times there are more than one meaning) It also has a Noah Websters 1828 dictionary which I use often because the definitions of the words better reflect, especially if you use the KJV, the words in use during that time. Best of all, e-sword is FREE. Though I want Bible Works, the $350 price tag was just too much. So for now, I use the poor man's version and it GREATLY inproves your study and understanding.

Peace.
Ken

Studyin'2Show
Dec 3rd 2008, 05:36 PM
I have e-sword as well and find it very helpful. ;) The KJV+ with Strong's numbers is great! :yes:

kenrank
Dec 3rd 2008, 07:02 PM
I have e-sword as well and find it very helpful. ;) The KJV+ with Strong's numbers is great! :yes:

It is a GREAT program for the money! ;)

Bible Works does something e-sword doesn't. I like to take words from the NT that aren't always clear...or at least leave a lingering question, and take that NT Greek word back to the Septuigent, the Greek OT. When I find that word used there, I then go to the Hebrew and find the word which was translated into the Septuigent. I then have the Hebrew equivalent. Sometimes, especially considering the NT was written from a Hebrew perspective, doing so can shed light on a troubling passage.

I do that on a brother's computer...I am too cheap to spring the $350 to get my own copy of Bible Works.

Peace.
Ken

thepenitent
Dec 3rd 2008, 07:35 PM
It is a GREAT program for the money! ;)

Bible Works does something e-sword doesn't. I like to take words from the NT that aren't always clear...or at least leave a lingering question, and take that NT Greek word back to the Septuigent, the Greek OT. When I find that word used there, I then go to the Hebrew and find the word which was translated into the Septuigent. I then have the Hebrew equivalent. Sometimes, especially considering the NT was written from a Hebrew perspective, doing so can shed light on a troubling passage.

I do that on a brother's computer...I am too cheap to spring the $350 to get my own copy of Bible Works.

Peace.
Ken

Although equally (if not more) pricey, Logos Bible study software is some of the most powerful, efficient software I've ever used of any kind. It's really incredible.

cindylou
Dec 3rd 2008, 09:43 PM
The only contradictions I have seen, and I spent some time looking for them, is translational errors. We were warned by Messiah to "beware of the scribes." What do we have now? 300 different bible versions, and because of copyright laws, they have to by law be different. Even in the KJV, however, there are a few errors. But that does NOT in any way take away from the manuscripts they are based on, or the original letters.

One other problem is differences in theological beliefs by translators. For example, in the NIV...which I am NOT bashing...just using it as an example...one translator who translated one book was a Calvinist, while another who did another book was Armenian, and so forth. So you actually have conflicting theologies within the bible. One book translated from one perspective, another using another perspective...and it becomes at odds with itself.

The way around it, IMHO, is to get a bible where the Tanach (OT) is based on the Massoretic texts, and the NT based on the received texts. (each has passed the test of time) Then and always, pray before reading. Ask God for clarity and understanding. It has to be HIM who reveals the contents anyway.

Peace.
Ken


I dont believe there are any errors in the KJV. I think that one day these "errors" will be proven to be truth the way God intended it.

I'm not a KJV onlier (ha is that a word?) but I do think that the KJV is infallible

But thats just me I wouldnt want to convince someone anything different than what they believe.

As long as they believe something is the Word of God.

kenrank
Dec 4th 2008, 01:15 PM
Although equally (if not more) pricey, Logos Bible study software is some of the most powerful, efficient software I've ever used of any kind. It's really incredible.

If I ever get around to giving in and buying better software, I will look into it. Thanks. I have explored Bible Works at depth, it is pretty amazing. But, for now, e-sword does what I need...and again, it's free!

Ken

kenrank
Dec 4th 2008, 01:32 PM
I dont believe there are any errors in the KJV. I think that one day these "errors" will be proven to be truth the way God intended it.

I'm not a KJV onlier (ha is that a word?) but I do think that the KJV is infallible

But thats just me I wouldnt want to convince someone anything different than what they believe.

As long as they believe something is the Word of God.

Don't get me wrong CindyLou, I LOVE the KJV!!! I was a hard line KJV only, no errors...hit you over the head with it (OK, maybe not that far) guy. But, there are some translational errors...I had to face that and deal with it. At first it shook me a little because my first pastor pounded it into our heads that there were none. I was shown some...and as you would expect, it rocked my world for a couple of weeks. But...I came to understand through time, prayer, and a TON of study...that it wasn't as bad as I had thought. The OT texts the KJV is based on, the Massoretic texts, have been passed down and preserved for at least hundreds of years before Messiah walked the earth. It was the Massoretic texts that was used to translate the OT in Greek, the Septuigent. As long as we are willing to study a little, which we are commanded to anyway, (study to show thyself approved a workman unto God- 2 Tim 2:15) we can work through it. That is why a decent bible study program, at least at the level of e-sword (which again, is free), will allow you to see the Greek and Hebrew words the translated English words are based on, their defined meanings, and allow you to better understand the intent.

CindyLou...I should have started with this...this is the key to understanding what I am saying. The problem isn't the KJV, and it isn't even the translators. They could have even had the Spirit of God guiding them through the translational process....none of that changes one fact. When you translate one language into another, you don't always have the perfectly equivelant words to choose from in the language you are translating into. This is less of a problem taking Greek or Hebrew into English, because our word bucket is so much larger than most other languages. Generally, we either have an exact word match, or can piece two or three words together to gather the meaning of the one word we are trying to translate. It is more of a problem when taking Hebrew, which has a limited word bucket, into Greek, which also has a limited word bucket.

If you want...I can share some of the errors. My advice would be, don't worry about them. Most are nit picky things anyway whose meanings are close enough that you get the gist of what is really being said. There are a few items that are flat out mistakes...but none that I have found are mistakes in places that effect a viewpoint or a doctrine. Generally numbers and names.

Peace and blessings.
Ken

ThuggishSplicer
Feb 23rd 2009, 07:39 AM
Jeremiah 8:8

There are too many assumed "contradictions" in the BIble for my taste.
Try looking up all of the ressurection stories, and compare them. Ask yourself questions after reading the first gospell in anticipation for the others(like how many women went to the tomb,or how many angels were there) And do it honestly.

Athanasius
Feb 23rd 2009, 01:21 PM
Jeremiah 8:8

There are too many assumed "contradictions" in the BIble for my taste.
Try looking up all of the ressurection stories, and compare them. Ask yourself questions after reading the first gospell in anticipation for the others(like how many women went to the tomb,or how many angels were there) And do it honestly.

And... ?

Brian Lloyd
Feb 23rd 2009, 02:51 PM
Someone on another message board has made a very long list of supposed contradictions. I have been wittling away at his list, posting my rebuttles, using the KJV. Here is one, for example:

EX 12:13 The Israelites have to mark their houses with blood in order for God to see which houses they occupy and "pass over" them.
PR 15:3, JE 16:17, 23:24-25, HE 4:13 God is everywhere. He sees everything. Nothing is hidden from God.


ppp

Just how, pray tell, is this a contradiction? Or an error? (I cut some out here)

God uses symbols all throughout the Bible. God uses symbols to keep certain truths prominent in our minds. God uses rituals to keep certain truths prominent in our mind. Such as the Lord's Supper- "This do in rememberance of me."

Perhaps the blood of the lambs on the doorposts have an extremely significant meaning? Perhaps He asked the Isrealites to do this for THEIR own good, for THEIR memory's sake? Perhaps the act of applying the blood to the doorpost was a "faith without works is dead" thing? If they believed the Lord, then they would act on it by applying the blood. Our faith is shown by our works, and applying the blood to the doorposts demonstrated their faith, their righteousness, their sonship, if you will. See, this was a form of the gospel- the blood on the doorposts foreshadowed the blood of The Lamb, Jesus Christ, being applied to the hearts of men and women who receive Him as Savior.

God obviously asked that the blood be applied to the doorposts for His children's sake, and not at all for His own- unless you want to say this was His way of establishing between Himself and the Isrealites who among them were truly 'saved', righteous people.

And here is another one, which I haven't fully replied to yet... I believe I know how this is resolved, but I would really like some more feedback.

Thanks!

EX 20:5, 34:7, NU 14:18, DT 5:9, IS 14:21-22 Children are to suffer for their parent's sins.
DT 24:16, EZ 18:19-20 Children are not to suffer for their parent's sins.

EZ 18:19 Yet say ye, Why? doth not the son bear the iniquity of the father? When the son hath done that which is lawful and right, and hath kept all my statutes, and hath done them, he shall surely live.

20The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

Deuteronomy 24:16 The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin.

Oo

Exodus 20:5

5Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; ***********

EX 34:7Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth generation.

Numbers 14:18 The LORD is longsuffering, and of great mercy, forgiving iniquity and transgression, and by no means clearing the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation.

DT 5: 9Thou shalt not bow down thyself unto them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me,

Isaiah 14:22For I will rise up against them, saith the LORD of hosts, and cut off from Babylon the name, and remnant, and son, and nephew, saith the LORD.

OOOOOOOOO

Let's see if anyone else sees what I see. Anyone care to comment?

Brian Lloyd:
The blood of the lamb, on the door post and lintel of the Jewish households in Egypt; was to signify the obedience to Moses' word to them (therefore their obedience to God), so that the "angel of death" would spare those so obeying, "by the blood of the lamb"! This record in the Old Testament of the "Passover", is a precursor to the later "Blood of The Lamb", Christ Jesus, as the "Lamb of God Who takes away the sin of the world". All those that accept (obey) the call to repentance by Almighty God through His Son's death on the cross of Calvary, are covered by the "Blood of The Lamb", as were the Jews of old; the difference being that Christ-Ones (Christians True) are saved from "spiritual death" in the future, and have a very special place in the Heart of Almighty God, as the Body of Christ! The facts shown here, also confirm for me, that The Lord's Body is not "destined for the Wrath of God", in the coming Tribulation!

RabbiKnife
Feb 23rd 2009, 06:02 PM
Have 4 people witness a car wreck.

Ask each of them to right a witness statement.

All four will be completely different.
But all four may be completely accurate.

Studyin'2Show
Feb 23rd 2009, 07:24 PM
Jeremiah 8:8

There are too many assumed "contradictions" in the BIble for my taste.
Try looking up all of the ressurection stories, and compare them. Ask yourself questions after reading the first gospell in anticipation for the others(like how many women went to the tomb,or how many angels were there) And do it honestly.If women named Lisa, Mary, and Julie were sitting in a car it would be accurate to say that 3 women were in the car. Would it not also be accurate to simply say that Mary was in the car? If you simply say that Mary was in the car, are you wrong? Isn't that statement just as correct? Does that mean you're saying that ONLY Mary was in the car or is it possible that she was simply the one you felt the need to mention? Curiously, since you are a Christian, what do you mean when you say there are "too many for your taste"? :hmm:

God Bless!
Denise

bosco
Feb 26th 2009, 03:54 AM
Someone on another message board has made a very long list of supposed contradictions. I have been wittling away at his list, posting my rebuttles, using the KJV. Here is one, for example:

EX 12:13 The Israelites have to mark their houses with blood in order for God to see which houses they occupy and "pass over" them.
PR 15:3, JE 16:17, 23:24-25, HE 4:13 God is everywhere. He sees everything. Nothing is hidden from God.


ppp

Just how, pray tell, is this a contradiction? Or an error? (I cut some out here)

God uses symbols all throughout the Bible. God uses symbols to keep certain truths prominent in our minds. God uses rituals to keep certain truths prominent in our mind. Such as the Lord's Supper- "This do in rememberance of me."

Perhaps the blood of the lambs on the doorposts have an extremely significant meaning? Perhaps He asked the Isrealites to do this for THEIR own good, for THEIR memory's sake? Perhaps the act of applying the blood to the doorpost was a "faith without works is dead" thing? If they believed the Lord, then they would act on it by applying the blood. Our faith is shown by our works, and applying the blood to the doorposts demonstrated their faith, their righteousness, their sonship, if you will. See, this was a form of the gospel- the blood on the doorposts foreshadowed the blood of The Lamb, Jesus Christ, being applied to the hearts of men and women who receive Him as Savior.

God obviously asked that the blood be applied to the doorposts for His children's sake, and not at all for His own- unless you want to say this was His way of establishing between Himself and the Isrealites who among them were truly 'saved', righteous people.

And here is another one, which I haven't fully replied to yet... I believe I know how this is resolved, but I would really like some more feedback.

Thanks!

EX 20:5, 34:7, NU 14:18, DT 5:9, IS 14:21-22 Children are to suffer for their parent's sins.
DT 24:16, EZ 18:19-20 Children are not to suffer for their parent's sins.

EZ 18:19 Yet say ye, Why? doth not the son bear the iniquity of the father? When the son hath done that which is lawful and right, and hath kept all my statutes, and hath done them, he shall surely live.

20The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

Deuteronomy 24:16 The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin.

Oo

Exodus 20:5

5Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; ***********

EX 34:7Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth generation.

Numbers 14:18 The LORD is longsuffering, and of great mercy, forgiving iniquity and transgression, and by no means clearing the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation.

DT 5: 9Thou shalt not bow down thyself unto them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me,

Isaiah 14:22For I will rise up against them, saith the LORD of hosts, and cut off from Babylon the name, and remnant, and son, and nephew, saith the LORD.

OOOOOOOOO

Let's see if anyone else sees what I see. Anyone care to comment?

I believe I can find the scripture if you need it (I haven't read all the posts) but the sin or curse that would be passed on to the children is UNLESS the child, when they reach an age where they can make rational decisions, chooses God's ways, lives according to God's will (commands) over the way their parents did.

Bosco

AlanR742
Feb 26th 2009, 06:30 AM
There are NO contradictions, people don't use 1 John 1:9 and read without the Holy Spirit and go all cuckoo.

One common "contradiction" that people vainly imagine is with Jesus and the tombs - actually, each section per the gospels is showing different events that occured at the same time, because, they went to the tomb multiple times. It's kind of like portraying an event in split screen - God uses it alot, especially in Revelation. (This was also used with the "numbering of israel" in the OT if I'm not mistaken)

Jesus Bless

MacGyver
Feb 28th 2009, 02:07 AM
Here's a list of 64 so-called contradictions answered


Answers to so-called Bible Contradictions (http://litteralchristianlibrary.wetpaint.com/page/Answers+to+the+so-called+%22Bible+contradictions%22)