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moonglow
Nov 29th 2008, 04:29 PM
Or even what scriptures this is drawn from. I never heard of it before...its just been over the last six months or so I have noticed people on here mentioning it but never including scriptures with it. I guess they assume everyone knows what part of the bible they are talking about...but I certainly don't! I have no clue where they are getting this idea from.

So first, I ask for the scriptures on it...and second what's the point? I really don't see a point in people repopulating a New Earth....not when you consider the millions, if not billions of believers since man was created...seems like to me there would be enough of us to start with. So why add more? It makes no sense to me and seems like such a foreign idea actually because I don't see this in scriptures..I have never heard one preacher talk about it...never read it in any bible related books.. even when I read Paul talking about the future return of Christ...our future new bodies and so forth, he doesn't mention one word of repopulating the New Earth...:hmm:

Thanks.

God bless

third hero
Nov 29th 2008, 05:11 PM
I have several questions for you.

Was the earth renewed after the Flood? Would've Noah called the depopulated earth after the flood new?

IN Revelation 16, the seventh bowl of God's wrath is a massive earthquake the splits Babylon into three portions and levels every other city in the world.

And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done. And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, [and] so great. And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath. And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found. -Revelation 16:17-20

According to these scriptures, the mountains and the islands fall, and places like Japan, and Hawaii are no longer found on the earth. According to this scripture, the earth is forever transformed, and God begins His wrath against Babylon. If the mountains fall and the islands flee, then is not the earth destroyed, and the aftermath a renewal?

You see, I believe that the Amil model completely forget about Revelation 16, the chapter that explicitly states not only where the nations gather and who gathers them, but also states when the Lord gathers His people, and also what God does to the earth, which all occurs concurrently.

Now, to clarify things, I am by no means saying that when the actual new planet is formed that the Lord will have evildoers repopulate it. According to Revelation 21, the nations are healed by the leaves of the tree of life. We know that the tree of life is restricted to only those who are faithful to the Lord, and no one tainted by sin can partake of it, as Adam and Eve found out the hard way. Therefore, there is no way that anyone evil can be a part of the New Heaven and Earth as described in Revelation 21.

Therefore, I am in essence, bringing into play the "New" earth that will be present when the Lord returns, by means of an earthquake that will destroy most of the cities of the world, with only two cities left standing, Jerusalem and Babylon. (Zechariah 14:9-11 for Jerusalem; Revelation 16:17-20 for Babylon). When that happens, when the Lord returns, He will judge the entire earth, and the nations left on it. The nations will be judged on how they treated the saints during the Great Tribulation, (Matthew 25:31-46). Afterwards, those nations that He has mercy on will repopulate the earth, with the Lord ruling over all of them, and imposing His requirements. (Psalm 2, Zechariah 14:16-21, Isaiah 65, among others). This repopulation has to happen in order for Revelation 20:7-10 to happen. For the Tribulation saints will not betray Lord Jesus, (Revelation 20:4-6), and they wil not be able to produce sinners, having been transformed into their incorruptible bodies.

Therefore, According to the verses that I have brought above, a repopulation has to happen, during the Millennium, so that afterward, Satan can launch his final rebellion, and will end up joining the Beast and the False Prophet in the Lake.

moonglow
Nov 29th 2008, 08:20 PM
Ummmm....ok...:confused

I have no idea what you are talking about. I am not in the position to debate it as I have no basic knowledge of this...

So you are saying Christians living in a perfect world have to have children to fight satan when the thousand years is over??? What's the point of that? I really don't get it...sorry...

God bless

Semi-tortured
Nov 29th 2008, 09:05 PM
I have no idea what you are talking about Moonglow. I have never heard of the "repopulation of the Earth. :confused Is it supposed to take place during the 1000 year reign of Christ or after in the New Heaven and Earth?

brakelite
Nov 29th 2008, 11:06 PM
A brief summary of events...
The final tribulation destroys the earth and all who live upon it, immediately after the righteous are taken to meet the Lord in the air at His second coming.
The earth is left empty and void for a thousand years, the wicked who died remain on the earth unburied and unlamented. Satan is bound to the earth by circumstance and has no-one to tempt any more. The righteous are in heaven occupying their new mansions in the new Jerusalem.
At the end of the 1000 years the new Jerusalem descends out of heaven to the earth, the wicked are raised and the devil rallies them in one final attempt to overthrow God's kingdom but they can only face their judgement and all, with the devil and and angels, are roasted alive and destroyed in the lake of fire. This fire also destroys everything else upon the earth that wasn't finished with at the second coming, like the pollution etc. The earth is thoroughly cleansed. The earth and heaven are remade and the saints repopulate the earth made new.
There are scriptures to support every one of the above statements.

moonglow
Nov 29th 2008, 11:15 PM
I have no idea what you are talking about Moonglow. I have never heard of the "repopulation of the Earth. :confused Is it supposed to take place during the 1000 year reign of Christ or after in the New Heaven and Earth?

I wish I knew what I was talking about too...:lol::lol: I am trying to find out though! lol. I have seen more and more members mention this in other threads on other topics about how yes during the thousand year reign of Christ, people who survived the tribulation will have totally peace and no sin....but apparently death is still there...I only had one mention Isaiah 65 for reference...

17 “ For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth;
And the former shall not be remembered or come to mind.
18 But be glad and rejoice forever in what I create;
For behold, I create Jerusalem as a rejoicing,
And her people a joy.
19 I will rejoice in Jerusalem,
And joy in My people;
The voice of weeping shall no longer be heard in her,
Nor the voice of crying.
20 “ No more shall an infant from there live but a few days,
Nor an old man who has not fulfilled his days;
For the child shall die one hundred years old,
But the sinner being one hundred years old shall be accursed.
21 They shall build houses and inhabit them;
They shall plant vineyards and eat their fruit.
22 They shall not build and another inhabit;
They shall not plant and another eat;
For as the days of a tree, so shall be the days of My people,
And My elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands.
23 They shall not labor in vain,
Nor bring forth children for trouble;
For they shall be the descendants of the blessed of the LORD,
And their offspring with them.
24 “ It shall come to pass
That before they call, I will answer;
And while they are still speaking, I will hear.
25 The wolf and the lamb shall feed together,
The lion shall eat straw like the ox,
And dust shall be the serpent’s food.
They shall not hurt nor destroy in all My holy mountain,”
Says the LORD.

But according to this sinners are still around...:confused

I don't think this is to be taken literally though from what I have read on it. Anyway....I am trying to learn more about it too...that is why I did this post.

God bless

moonglow
Nov 29th 2008, 11:16 PM
A brief summary of events...
The final tribulation destroys the earth and all who live upon it, immediately after the righteous are taken to meet the Lord in the air at His second coming.
The earth is left empty and void for a thousand years, the wicked who died remain on the earth unburied and unlamented. Satan is bound to the earth by circumstance and has no-one to tempt any more. The righteous are in heaven occupying their new mansions in the new Jerusalem.
At the end of the 1000 years the new Jerusalem descends out of heaven to the earth, the wicked are raised and the devil rallies them in one final attempt to overthrow God's kingdom but they can only face their judgement and all, with the devil and and angels, are roasted alive and destroyed in the lake of fire. This fire also destroys everything else upon the earth that wasn't finished with at the second coming, like the pollution etc. The earth is thoroughly cleansed. The earth and heaven are remade and the saints repopulate the earth made new.
There are scriptures to support every one of the above statements.

Ok...this is a new one also...

Can you post the scriptures please and aline then with each part you wrote on here so I can follow along? Thanks.

God bless

Dragonfighter1
Nov 29th 2008, 11:22 PM
I believe they are refering to the final chapters of Revelation, along with some interpretive license... Ill see what else I can figure and get back to you.

DF

brakelite
Nov 29th 2008, 11:55 PM
A brief summary of events...
The final tribulation destroys the earth and all who live upon it, immediately after the righteous are taken to meet the Lord in the air at His second coming.
Rev 16:18-21 Rev 6:14-17 Math 24:30,31
1 Thess 4:16,17 1 Cor 15:51-55 1 Jn 3:2 Phill 3:21



The earth is left empty and void for a thousand years, the wicked who died remain on the earth unburied and unlamented.
Isa 11:4 Rev 20:5 Jer 4:23, 25, 28 Jer 25:33


Satan is bound to the earth by circumstance and has no-one to tempt any more.
Isa 24:22 Rev 20:1-3


The righteous are in heaven occupying their new mansions in the new Jerusalem.
Jn 14:1-3 Rev 20:4


At the end of the 1000 years the new Jerusalem descends out of heaven to the earth, the wicked are raised and the devil rallies them in one final attempt to overthrow God's kingdom but they can only face their judgement and all, with the devil and and angels, are roasted alive and destroyed in the lake of fire.
Rev 20 5,7,8. Rev 21:2,3 Zech 14:1,4,5,10 Rev 20:7-9 Rev 20:9,10 21:8 Malachi 4:3



This fire also destroys everything else upon the earth that wasn't finished with at the second coming, like the pollution etc. The earth is thoroughly cleansed. The earth and heaven are remade and the saints repopulate the earth made new.

Isa 65:17 2 Peter 3:13 Rev 21:1-4

By repopulate however that does not mean we will continue to propogate the species. We will, as Jesus said, be like the angels who do not marry and do not have the power to give birth.

ross3421
Nov 30th 2008, 12:00 AM
Or even what scriptures this is drawn from. I never heard of it before...its just been over the last six months or so I have noticed people on here mentioning it but never including scriptures with it. I guess they assume everyone knows what part of the bible they are talking about...but I certainly don't! I have no clue where they are getting this idea from.

So first, I ask for the scriptures on it...and second what's the point? I really don't see a point in people repopulating a New Earth....not when you consider the millions, if not billions of believers since man was created...seems like to me there would be enough of us to start with. So why add more? It makes no sense to me and seems like such a foreign idea actually because I don't see this in scriptures..I have never heard one preacher talk about it...never read it in any bible related books.. even when I read Paul talking about the future return of Christ...our future new bodies and so forth, he doesn't mention one word of repopulating the New Earth...:hmm:

Thanks.

God bless

Will God multiply Israel in eternity?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It is pretty clear from the following verse that God will multiply Israel in the new earth. This will start out as the 144,000 remnant which dry bones are resurrected to start upon the new earth and then will be multiplied unto generation to generation.

Eze 37:12 Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel.

Eze 37:26 Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore.

Joe 3:18 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the mountains shall drop down new wine, and the hills shall flow with milk, and all the rivers of Judah shall flow with waters, and a fountain shall come forth of the house of the LORD, and shall water the valley of ****tim.

Joe 3:20 But Judah shall dwell for ever, and Jerusalem from generation to generation.


Mark

Diggindeeper
Nov 30th 2008, 01:10 AM
It is pretty clear from the following verse that God will multiply Israel in the new earth. This will start out as the 144,000 remnant which dry bones are resurrected to start upon the new earth and then will be multiplied unto generation to generation.

Eze 37:12 Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel.

Eze 37:26 Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore.

Joe 3:18 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the mountains shall drop down new wine, and the hills shall flow with milk, and all the rivers of Judah shall flow with waters, and a fountain shall come forth of the house of the LORD, and shall water the valley of ****tim.

Joe 3:20 But Judah shall dwell for ever, and Jerusalem from generation to generation.


Mark

Mark, this is not clear to me at all, although you said it is "pretty clear".

My questions:
1- Where on earth does it say in the Bible that the 144,000 are the resurrected "dry bones"?

2- Even if, IF, they were resurrected, where does it say they will start the new earth?

3- Or populate it?

4- I can't see a connection between your Ezekiel verses and 144,000. Scripture, please?

5- I can't find the book of Joe in my KJV....:lol:


I find reference to the 144,000 here:
Revelation 7:2-4
2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,

3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

I also find reference to them here:
Revelation 14:1-3
1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:

3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth

But, I also see that their number HAS NOT INCREASED, even by ONE person! I have yet to see the great multitude that folks say are brought in by way of their "end-time revival". I don't even find that the 144,000 even PREACH anywhere.

I just need someone to show me these things, I guess...:dunno:

Moonglow, I can't help you any. Sorry. I just think sometimes we assume things will be a certain way. For example, I've wondered lots of times about those who would be "ruled over", in the new earth. But you see, I've just always assumed that maybe, just maybe, there could be those someday resurrected who never had the chance to know about Christ Jesus. For example, think of all the children and babies who died in the flood of Noah's time! Think about this...they never would have lived a holy life because there was NO ONE on earth to teach them the highway of holiness! Nevertheless, they died. Wickedness was so terribly bad, that there was not one Mom or Dad or brother or sister or aunt or uncle or grandparent...NO ONE who was capable of teaching them anything but wickedness!

So, in my limited, puny, human mind, I think (or maybe I kinda hope!) that someday, someway...perhaps they could be given a chance they never had.

Then again, think of the millions of ABORTED little babies who never had a chance of having a parent to teach them anything, whether good or evil!

In my limited understanding, I guess I just kind of pray they could some how, some way be given a chance...to live, to have a Mom. Or a Dad.

It just seems to me there is no reason to imagine a "repopulating" of the NEW earth. There's more than enough who never had a chance to live or learn about God. Or it seems that way to me.....

I'm going now. I think I'm just rambling and probably not making any sense anyway.

ross3421
Nov 30th 2008, 01:37 AM
[QUOTE=Diggindeeper;1886011][COLOR=navy]1- Where on earth does it say in the Bible that the 144,000 are the resurrected "dry bones"?

Eze 37:11 Then he said unto me, Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel:

Re 7:4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

The house of Israel would be equal to the 12 tribes which is equal to the remnant remianing when Christ returns. 144,000.


2- Even if, IF, they were resurrected, where does it say they will start the new earth?
3- Or populate it?

I think we can say that if they are in the midst of his sanctuary evermore that it would mean the new earth.

moonglow
Nov 30th 2008, 01:46 AM
Mark, this is not clear to me at all, although you said it is "pretty clear".

My questions:
1- Where on earth does it say in the Bible that the 144,000 are the resurrected "dry bones"?

2- Even if, IF, they were resurrected, where does it say they will start the new earth?

3- Or populate it?

4- I can't see a connection between your Ezekiel verses and 144,000. Scripture, please?

5- I can't find the book of Joe in my KJV....:lol:


I find reference to the 144,000 here:
Revelation 7:2-4
2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,

3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

I also find reference to them here:
Revelation 14:1-3
1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:

3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth

But, I also see that their number HAS NOT INCREASED, even by ONE person! I have yet to see the great multitude that folks say are brought in by way of their "end-time revival". I don't even find that the 144,000 even PREACH anywhere.

I just need someone to show me these things, I guess...:dunno:

Moonglow, I can't help you any. Sorry. I just think sometimes we assume things will be a certain way. For example, I've wondered lots of times about those who would be "ruled over", in the new earth. But you see, I've just always assumed that maybe, just maybe, there could be those someday resurrected who never had the chance to know about Christ Jesus. For example, think of all the children and babies who died in the flood of Noah's time! Think about this...they never would have lived a holy life because there was NO ONE on earth to teach them the highway of holiness! Nevertheless, they died. Wickedness was so terribly bad, that there was not one Mom or Dad or brother or sister or aunt or uncle or grandparent...NO ONE who was capable of teaching them anything but wickedness!

So, in my limited, puny, human mind, I think (or maybe I kinda hope!) that someday, someway...perhaps they could be given a chance they never had.

Then again, think of the millions of ABORTED little babies who never had a chance of having a parent to teach them anything, whether good or evil!

In my limited understanding, I guess I just kind of pray they could some how, some way be given a chance...to live, to have a Mom. Or a Dad.

It just seems to me there is no reason to imagine a "repopulating" of the NEW earth. There's more than enough who never had a chance to live or learn about God. Or it seems that way to me.....

I'm going now. I think I'm just rambling and probably not making any sense anyway.

You make sense to me! :lol: I don't get it either...I don't see the point in doing some SO physical..when we are constantly being pointed to the spiritual in the bible...(I need a smilie scratching its head here) and it seems rather redundant to have Christ set things anew but then allow wicked to come in once again...I just really don't get the point in that. Its very, very confusing to me and seems so odd because as I have said I have never read one thing on it...never heard on sermon on it...never heard it mention in all my years until recently on this board. I have read through the bible more then once and never got a hint of an idea the New Earth meant us repopulating the New Earth...especially since Jesus says their will be no marriage. I listen to the Christian radio station so I can hear many sermons, many bible studies a day...never heard repopulating the New Earth mentioned once by any of them and they all have different views too.

I am however going to try to understand and check out these verses posted...so least I have some idea what people on here are talking about when they bring it up in some thread.

I don't know enough to debate this..its not my intention...though I may seriously question how some of these verses are applied...

So ross and brakelite and any others...I have every intention of looking up all those verses you posted, but probably not until tomorrow ..too many distractions here this evening...thanks.

God bless

bennie
Nov 30th 2008, 01:53 AM
A brief summary of events...
The final tribulation destroys the earth and all who live upon it, immediately after the righteous are taken to meet the Lord in the air at His second coming.
The earth is left empty and void for a thousand years, the wicked who died remain on the earth unburied and unlamented. Satan is bound to the earth by circumstance and has no-one to tempt any more. The righteous are in heaven occupying their new mansions in the new Jerusalem.
At the end of the 1000 years the new Jerusalem descends out of heaven to the earth, the wicked are raised and the devil rallies them in one final attempt to overthrow God's kingdom but they can only face their judgement and all, with the devil and and angels, are roasted alive and destroyed in the lake of fire. This fire also destroys everything else upon the earth that wasn't finished with at the second coming, like the pollution etc. The earth is thoroughly cleansed. The earth and heaven are remade and the saints repopulate the earth made new.
There are scriptures to support every one of the above statements.

brakelite.
i am with you on this one!

Hi moonglow.

here is another one for you:D Maybe God is using the people of earth to repopulate heaven. A third of His house was left emty when satan and his angels rebelled agains God.

bennie

jeffweeder
Nov 30th 2008, 02:36 AM
The new hev and earth will only be populated by those who have been saved in the old hev and earth---its the place prepared for us, where righteousness dwells.


Jesus was asked about 7 brothers who married the same woman, as each brother died, and whos wife she would be in the new world.



matt 22
But Jesus answered and said to them, "You are mistaken, not understanding the Scriptures nor the power of God.
30 "For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven.

Today is the day to get saved, and take your place in the new.
When Jesus comes again and the ressurection happens, the door is shut.

God is patient now , not wanting any to perish--and miss out on the place prepared, but all to repent before Jesus comes in his kingdom.

third hero
Nov 30th 2008, 05:56 AM
Ummmm....ok...:confused

I have no idea what you are talking about. I am not in the position to debate it as I have no basic knowledge of this...

So you are saying Christians living in a perfect world have to have children to fight satan when the thousand years is over??? What's the point of that? I really don't get it...sorry...

God bless

Nope. Not in the least.

Here's what I am talking about. The Millennium. The period in time from when the Lord returns until the last day, as recorded in Revelation 20:4-15. During this period of time, wicked people band with the freed Satan in order to overthrow Lord Jesus. In order for these people to exist, some people from the age before the Lord returns must survive the Return. This is the only repopulation that I can possibly think that others are talking about.

DurbanDude
Nov 30th 2008, 07:52 AM
Hi moonglow, well the way I understand it, there are more verses about earth being re-populated during the millenium after the second coming. The New Earth only happens at the end of the millenium. Here is my thinking , sorry 'bout the long post but I wanted to show some scriptural backing.
I will try to explain this clearly , hope I get it right! Rev 19, 20 , 21 explains it.

When Jesus comes he will destroy the armies at Megiddo , and destroy the beast. He shall rule the nations with an iron rod. We all know that when Jesus comes he will gather the elect (from other verses in the bible). Those that haven't worshipped the beast will be resurrected, and they will reign with Jesus (over the nations?) for 1000 years. Then Satan will deceive the nations and be cast into the lake of fire. There will be a resurrection of the "rest" , those that didn't participate in the first resurrection , and they will be judged. Then will come the New Earth.
Let the scriptures speak:

Jesus comes
19:12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

Jesus smites the nations with a sword, those nations (them) that he SHALL rule with an iron rod, and there is great wrath
19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God


Jesus destroys the beast
19:19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.


The beast is cast into the fiery lake:
19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

Satan is not cast into the fiery lake yet, he is first bound for 1000 years
20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

The blessed , those that don't worship the beast , reign with Christ for 1000 years at the first resurrection
20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years

(It appears to me that the people who Christ reigns over are the nations that Christ rules with an iron rod, the blessed also reign with Christ)

After 1000 years Satan attacks Jerusalem (Satan is not the beast ,the beast is already in the lake of fire).
Satan is also cast into the lake of fire to join the beast
20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

The "rest of the dead" are resurrected and are judged (see verse 5 - in other words those that did not participate in the first resurrection of the blessed)
20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.


Only then is the first earth burnt up, and there is a new heaven and a new earth.
21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

Old Testament verses speak of a time of blessing when Jerusalem is the blessed and holy city, and there is peace on earth.

Depending on the context, these verses could either be referring to the 1000 years when Jesus rules the current earth and the nations with an iron rod , or these verses could be referring to the period (1000 years later) after the new earth has been created. Only the context of the Old Testament chapter can indicate which earth is being referred to:

eg:
Zech 8 speaks of the time when God refers to Jeruslaem as the "city of truth" and dwells in Jerusalem. Yet there are old men in the city ,which speaks of a world where there are mortal people who grow old. This seems to be a period before the New Earth because my understanding of the resurrected body is that all on the New Earth will have a resurrected body and not grow old at all. So I would place this in the 1000 year period of Christ's rule of the nations with an iron rod.
Zech 8:3 Thus saith the LORD; I am returned unto Zion, and will dwell in the midst of Jerusalem: and Jerusalem shall be called a city of truth; and the mountain of the LORD of hosts the holy mountain.
8:4 Thus saith the LORD of hosts; There shall yet old men and old women dwell in the streets of Jerusalem, and every man with his staff in his hand for very age.
8:5 And the streets of the city shall be full of boys and girls playing in the streets thereof.

And verse 23 confirms this. In this period of peace for Jerusalem, for some reason the nations don't seem to have the full blessing of God compared to Jews:

God dwells in Jerusalem yet some are more blessed than others, this makes me think that this is not the new earth where only the resurrected are living.
8:23 Thus saith the LORD of hosts; In those days it shall come to pass, that ten men shall take hold out of all languages of the nations, even shall take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew, saying, We will go with you: for we have heard that God is with you.


The same applies to Isaiah 2, in this period of blessing for Zion, when the nations are no longer at war , the people still do not know the ways of God. The same nations that are judged and rebuked the ones beating their swords into plowshares
2:2 And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.
2:3 And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.
2:4 And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.


In Ezekiel , in the context of the attack of Gog upon Israel , God says:
38:20 So that the fishes of the sea, and the fowls of the heaven, and the beasts of the field, and all creeping things that creep upon the earth, and all the men that are upon the face of the earth, shall shake at my presence, and the mountains shall be thrown down, and the steep places shall fall, and every wall shall fall to the ground

And a few verses later we see that a sixth of the areas of Gog will be left. This indicates that when God appears to earth (I see this as the second coming) a lot of this earth is intact. It must be another time that God destroys the whole earth , but not at the second coming, at the second coming some areas escape.
39:1 Therefore, thou son of man, prophesy against Gog, and say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against thee, O Gog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal:
39:2 And I will turn thee back, and leave but the sixth part of thee, and will cause thee to come up from the north parts, and will bring thee upon the mountains of Israel:


In Joel the bible is saying that when God dwells in Jerusalem, Edom and Egypt will be desolate but does not say that they will be destroyed and burnt up with the whole earth. In other words God dwells on this earth before HE destroys this earth and creates a New Earth.
3:18 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the mountains shall drop down new wine, and the hills shall flow with milk, and all the rivers of Judah shall flow with waters, and a fountain shall come forth out of the house of the LORD, and shall water the valley of ****tim.
3:19 Egypt shall be a desolation, and Edom shall be a desolate wilderness, for the violence against the children of Judah, because they have shed innocent blood in their land.
3:20 But Judah shall dwell for ever, and Jerusalem from generation to generation.
3:21 For I will cleanse their blood that I have not cleansed: for the LORD dwelleth in Zion.

In Zechariah 14 it speaks to me of the second coming and the Day of the Lord:
14:1 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
14:2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
14:3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
14:4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

And a little later the bible says that there are people who are "left of all the nations",and they have no rain if they don't go up to worship the Lord.
14:16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
14:17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.

There are many more verses of this nature, especially Isaiah. I know everyone has their own interpretations , I tend to interpret things literally unless I am certain that the language is metaphorical.

I have therefore come to the conclusion that there will be a period after the second coming when Jesus rules from Jerusalem with an iron rod, this earth will survive the great earthquake even though every mountain is moved. There will be areas laid waste and areas that will survive. Nations will still exist, those left will go up annually to worship the Lord. People will grow old.

This period fits into the 1000 year period of Rev 20 which occurs after the second coming of Rev 19 but before the New Earth of Rev 21, when the earth is full and is deceived by Satan, and the deceived nations attack the holy city. Rev 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. The earth will be highly populated then.

Raybob
Nov 30th 2008, 07:49 PM
A brief summary of events...
The final tribulation destroys the earth and all who live upon it, immediately after the righteous are taken to meet the Lord in the air at His second coming.
The earth is left empty and void for a thousand years, the wicked who died remain on the earth unburied and unlamented. Satan is bound to the earth by circumstance and has no-one to tempt any more. The righteous are in heaven occupying their new mansions in the new Jerusalem.
At the end of the 1000 years the new Jerusalem descends out of heaven to the earth, the wicked are raised and the devil rallies them in one final attempt to overthrow God's kingdom but they can only face their judgement and all, with the devil and and angels, are roasted alive and destroyed in the lake of fire. This fire also destroys everything else upon the earth that wasn't finished with at the second coming, like the pollution etc. The earth is thoroughly cleansed. The earth and heaven are remade and the saints repopulate the earth made new.
There are scriptures to support every one of the above statements.

Hmm.. Scripture tells us that the elements of this current earth will melt with fervent heat. Elements would include water, rocks, dirt, etc.

2Pe 3:12-13 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? (13) Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Scripture also tells us that the new earth won't be anything like this one because there will be no sun.

Rev 22:5 And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.

With no sun needed, this cannot possibly refer to our current earth being remade.

Raybob

Forgiven Alaskan
Dec 1st 2008, 03:08 AM
I think it's just common sense. The Bible "lets admit" is not the most detailed book when you read it, so you have to use common sense to. So who repopulates the Milenium after the Tribulation? The Christians that survived the Trib.

moonglow
Dec 1st 2008, 03:46 AM
I think it's just common sense. The Bible "lets admit" is not the most detailed book when you read it, so you have to use common sense to. So who repopulates the Milenium after the Tribulation? The Christians that survived the Trib.

But what for? What the point? It makes no sense at all to me to have people bearing children at this point in time...:confused

BTW I have to disagree with you though..I think the bible is extremely detailed and using our imagination can and does lead to alot of false ideas, which then lead to false teachings...that is how we got cults...in other words if its not in the bible...we shouldn't assume it should be. I see totally no reason for people to repopulate the New Earth at all actually by having more children...those children growing up and having children...haven't we done this long enough? I would be ready for the spiritual! Not more of the same...this wouldn't seem very 'new' to me at all....this is why it makes no sense to me...


Anyway to the rest...sorry I couldn't get on here and really read the posts today..I just didn't sleep well last night and my concentration was out the window for something like this...hopefully I will sleep well tonight and can really read these through more closely...

God bless

crush
Dec 1st 2008, 04:44 AM
Hi moonglow, well the way I understand it, there are more verses about earth being re-populated during the millenium after the second coming. The New Earth only happens at the end of the millenium. Here is my thinking , sorry 'bout the long post but I wanted to show some scriptural backing.
I will try to explain this clearly , hope I get it right! Rev 19, 20 , 21 explains it.

[snip]



Excellent Post DurbanDude!

wpm
Dec 1st 2008, 06:34 AM
Hi moonglow, well the way I understand it, there are more verses about earth being re-populated during the millenium after the second coming. The New Earth only happens at the end of the millenium. Here is my thinking , sorry 'bout the long post but I wanted to show some scriptural backing.
I will try to explain this clearly , hope I get it right! Rev 19, 20 , 21 explains it.


Premil depend upon one single passage - Rev 20. However, if you look at the climactic detail of Rev 19 you will see like elsewhere in Scripture all the wicked are destroyed - both free and bond. All flesh!!! This in my view disallows the Premil concept.

John Metcalfe rightly says in relation to the Holy Spirit’s use of the phrase “a thousand” in the Old Testament, in a booklet ‘Premillennialism Exposed’, “One reads of a thousand hills, a thousand vines, a thousand Philistines, a thousand children of Bigvai, a thousand Ammonites, a thousand spears, a thousand camels, a thousand horses, a thousand chariots, a thousand judges, a thousand bullocks, a thousand rams, but never of a thousand years reign, no, not from Genesis to Malachi.”

And continues, “One can discover a thousand shields for a thousand Israelites, a thousand cubits and a thousand footmen to traverse them, a thousand talents and a thousand oxen to carry them, a thousand silver pieces and a thousand Edomites to covet them, a thousand baths and a thousand men to bathe in them, but what no one can find, no, not one of a thousand, is a thousand years reign at the end of time with the second coming of Christ preceding this millennial invention.”

Harold Hazelip rightly says, in his book ‘Revelation and the Millennium’ “The 1000 years appears nowhere in the 66 books, 1189 chapters, 31,173 verses of the Bible except for 6 occurrences in 6 consecutive verses of Revelation 20:2-7. It is not good exegesis to build an entire system of eschatology, a philosophy of history, on such a highly symbolic passage, particularly when that interpretation conflicts with other plain passage of scripture.”

There is no mention of such a millennial period anywhere else. Because of this you have to force all "the last days" passages that we have shown you that relate to the intra-Advent and the new heavens and new earth" passages that relate to the climactic Coming of Christ and create a supposed future millennium. I hate to disappoint you but it will not happen. Your millennium is just a mirror of our day with sin abounding, the bondage of corruption prospering (after Christ has just removed it at the general resurrection Romans 8). This doesn't add up. Death, funerals, hatred, strife and wickedness persist. The deceived grow to such a degree that they swamp the millennium. Sounds like our day!!! ;)

DurbanDude
Dec 1st 2008, 10:14 AM
Premil depend upon one single passage - Rev 20. However, if you look at the climactic detail of Rev 19 you will see like elsewhere in Scripture all the wicked are destroyed - both free and bond. All flesh!!! This in my view disallows the Premil concept.

John Metcalfe rightly says in relation to the Holy Spirit’s use of the phrase “a thousand” in the Old Testament, in a booklet ‘Premillennialism Exposed’, “One reads of a thousand hills, a thousand vines, a thousand Philistines, a thousand children of Bigvai, a thousand Ammonites, a thousand spears, a thousand camels, a thousand horses, a thousand chariots, a thousand judges, a thousand bullocks, a thousand rams, but never of a thousand years reign, no, not from Genesis to Malachi.”

And continues, “One can discover a thousand shields for a thousand Israelites, a thousand cubits and a thousand footmen to traverse them, a thousand talents and a thousand oxen to carry them, a thousand silver pieces and a thousand Edomites to covet them, a thousand baths and a thousand men to bathe in them, but what no one can find, no, not one of a thousand, is a thousand years reign at the end of time with the second coming of Christ preceding this millennial invention.”

Harold Hazelip rightly says, in his book ‘Revelation and the Millennium’ “The 1000 years appears nowhere in the 66 books, 1189 chapters, 31,173 verses of the Bible except for 6 occurrences in 6 consecutive verses of Revelation 20:2-7. It is not good exegesis to build an entire system of eschatology, a philosophy of history, on such a highly symbolic passage, particularly when that interpretation conflicts with other plain passage of scripture.”

There is no mention of such a millennial period anywhere else. Because of this you have to force all "the last days" passages that we have shown you that relate to the intra-Advent and the new heavens and new earth" passages that relate to the climactic Coming of Christ and create a supposed future millennium. I hate to disappoint you but it will not happen. Your millennium is just a mirror of our day with sin abounding, the bondage of corruption prospering (after Christ has just removed it at the general resurrection Romans 8). This doesn't add up. Death, funerals, hatred, strife and wickedness persist. The deceived grow to such a degree that they swamp the millennium. Sounds like our day!!! ;)

wpm, you aren't letting up! I was answering Moonglow's opening post, and showing verses to support it so she can understand other's PoV. She says that she has not seen any scripture, so I showed where the logic comes from.

Revelation speaks for itself, other books don't mention the seven bowls , I still believe in the seven bowls. Other books don't mention the woman with twelve stars, I still believe we should look into it. As I showed Moonglow, other verses outside Revelation do mention a Messianic period of rule over nations with an iron rod on the current earth before any new earth, and this confirms the millenium of Revelation that occurs before a new earth.

DurbanDude
Dec 1st 2008, 10:26 AM
I think it's just common sense. The Bible "lets admit" is not the most detailed book when you read it, so you have to use common sense to. So who repopulates the Milenium after the Tribulation? The Christians that survived the Trib.

Rev 20 says those that those who do not worship the beast are resurrected before the millenium, they reign with Christ therefore are not part of the nations that are ruled with an iron rod during the millenium.

moonglow
Dec 1st 2008, 03:38 PM
Rev 16:18-21 Rev 6:14-17 Math 24:30,31
1 Thess 4:16,17 1 Cor 15:51-55 1 Jn 3:2 Phill 3:21

Isa 11:4 Rev 20:5 Jer 4:23, 25, 28 Jer 25:33

Isa 24:22 Rev 20:1-3

Jn 14:1-3 Rev 20:4

Rev 20 5,7,8. Rev 21:2,3 Zech 14:1,4,5,10 Rev 20:7-9 Rev 20:9,10 21:8 Malachi 4:3


Isa 65:17 2 Peter 3:13 Rev 21:1-4

By repopulate however that does not mean we will continue to propogate the species. We will, as Jesus said, be like the angels who do not marry and do not have the power to give birth.

ok brakelite, I got these looked up. So you are saying the believers don't go on to have more children on the New Earth? I don't understand though how you got the idea the wicked are raised for battle by the verses you posted though. Or really what the point is in raising them just to do battle...:confused Or how you ended up connecting some of these old testament verses to the end times like this.

I looked up the Malachi verse you post on a bible commentary...it seems this has to do with the judgment that came on Jerusalem in 70 AD.

The Adam Clarke Commentary (http://www.studylight.org/com/acc/view.cgi?book=mal&chapter=004)

Verse 1. Behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven
The destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans.

And all the proud
This is in reference to Malachi 3:15of the preceding chapter.

The day that cometh shall burn them up
Either by famine, by sword, or by captivity. All those rebels shall be destroyed.

It shall leave them neither root nor branch.
A proverbial expression for total destruction. Neither man nor child shall escape.

Verse 2. You that fear my name
The persons mentioned in the sixteenth verse of the preceding chapter, ye that look for redemption through the Messiah. Malachi 3:16

The Sun of righteousness
The Lord Jesus, the promised Messiah; the Hope of Israel.

With healing in his wings
As the sun, by the rays of light and heat, revives, cheers, and fructifies the whole creation, giving, through God, light and life everywhere; so Jesus Christ, by the influences of his grace and Spirit, shall quicken, awaken, enlighten, warm, invigorate, heal, purify, and refine every soul that believes in him, and, by his wings or rays, diffuse these blessings from one end of heaven to another; everywhere invigorating the seeds of righteousness, and withering and drying up the seeds of sin. The rays of this Sun are the truths of his Gospel, and the influences of his Spirit. And at present these are universally diffused.

And ye shall go forth
Ye who believe on his name shall go forth out of Jerusalem when the Romans shall come up against it. After Cestius Gallus had blockaded the city for some days, he suddenly raised the siege. The Christians who were then in it, knowing, by seeing Jerusalem encompassed with armies, that the day of its destruction was come, when their Lord commanded them to flee into the mountains, took this opportunity to escape from Jerusalem, and go to Pella, in Coelesyria; so that no Christian life fell in the siege and destruction of this city.

But these words are of more general application and meaning; "ye shall go forth" in all the occupations of life, but particularly in the means of grace; and-

Grow up as calves of the stall
Full of health, of life, and spirits; satisfied and happy.

Verse 3. Ye shall tread down
This may be the commission given to the Romans: Tread down the wicked people, tread down the wicked place; set it on fire, and let the ashes be trodden down under your feet.

Verse 4. Remember ye the law of Moses
Where all these things are predicted. The Septuagint, Arabic, and Coptic, place this verse the last.

Verse 5. Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet
This is meant alone of John the Baptist, as we learn from Luke 1:17, (where see the note,) in whose spirit and power he came.

Zechariah 14, in part, seems to be about this same thing. Anyway I never heard of the wicked being raised from the dead to do battle. :confused

Thanks for your input though..it seems a number of posters on here have presented some ideas I never heard of before...its very confusing and makes me wonder how so many have such huge differences on what they think will happen during this time.

God bless

moonglow
Dec 1st 2008, 03:42 PM
Will God multiply Israel in eternity?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It is pretty clear from the following verse that God will multiply Israel in the new earth. This will start out as the 144,000 remnant which dry bones are resurrected to start upon the new earth and then will be multiplied unto generation to generation.

Eze 37:12 Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel.

Eze 37:26 Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore.

Joe 3:18 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the mountains shall drop down new wine, and the hills shall flow with milk, and all the rivers of Judah shall flow with waters, and a fountain shall come forth of the house of the LORD, and shall water the valley of ****tim.

Joe 3:20 But Judah shall dwell for ever, and Jerusalem from generation to generation.


Mark
Ok thanks. So you think the Jews will just stay on the New Earth...not be given new bodies like the rest of us and not be in Heaven but stuck on earth to just keep having children and doing the same as they always have? For a thousand years or longer?

God bless

wpm
Dec 1st 2008, 03:51 PM
As I showed Moonglow, other verses outside Revelation do mention a Messianic period of rule over nations with an iron rod on the current earth before any new earth, and this confirms the millenium of Revelation that occurs before a new earth.


I actually agree with this. :) However, I believe we are in the Gospel millennium now - where the Gentiles (ethnos) are enlightened.

moonglow
Dec 1st 2008, 03:58 PM
brakelite.
i am with you on this one!

Hi moonglow.

here is another one for you:D Maybe God is using the people of earth to repopulate heaven. A third of His house was left emty when satan and his angels rebelled agains God.

bennie

But we aren't angels...nor will become angels in Heaven.


third hero
Quote:
Originally Posted by moonglow View Post
Ummmm....ok...

I have no idea what you are talking about. I am not in the position to debate it as I have no basic knowledge of this...

So you are saying Christians living in a perfect world have to have children to fight satan when the thousand years is over??? What's the point of that? I really don't get it...sorry...

God bless
Nope. Not in the least.

Here's what I am talking about. The Millennium. The period in time from when the Lord returns until the last day, as recorded in Revelation 20:4-15. During this period of time, wicked people band with the freed Satan in order to overthrow Lord Jesus. In order for these people to exist, some people from the age before the Lord returns must survive the Return. This is the only repopulation that I can possibly think that others are talking about.[/QUOTE]

Ok...thanks for explaining. What I was looking for is those that says the believers will be on the New Earth during the thousands years and live in peace and keep having children..I guess live like we do now. My question was where are the scriptures showing this and scriptures showing what the reason believers are doing this cause it makes no sense to me. Doesn't sound like that is what you believe though. Thanks anyway.



DurbanDude : Hi moonglow, well the way I understand it, there are more verses about earth being re-populated during the millenium after the second coming. The New Earth only happens at the end of the millenium. Here is my thinking , sorry 'bout the long post but I wanted to show some scriptural backing.
I will try to explain this clearly , hope I get it right! Rev 19, 20 , 21 explains it.

When Jesus comes he will destroy the armies at Megiddo , and destroy the beast. He shall rule the nations with an iron rod. We all know that when Jesus comes he will gather the elect (from other verses in the bible). Those that haven't worshipped the beast will be resurrected, and they will reign with Jesus (over the nations?) for 1000 years. Then Satan will deceive the nations and be cast into the lake of fire. There will be a resurrection of the "rest" , those that didn't participate in the first resurrection , and they will be judged. Then will come the New Earth.
Let the scriptures speak:

Jesus comes
19:12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

Jesus smites the nations with a sword, those nations (them) that he SHALL rule with an iron rod, and there is great wrath
19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God


Jesus destroys the beast
19:19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.


The beast is cast into the fiery lake:
19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

Satan is not cast into the fiery lake yet, he is first bound for 1000 years
20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

The blessed , those that don't worship the beast , reign with Christ for 1000 years at the first resurrection
20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years

(It appears to me that the people who Christ reigns over are the nations that Christ rules with an iron rod, the blessed also reign with Christ)

After 1000 years Satan attacks Jerusalem (Satan is not the beast ,the beast is already in the lake of fire).
Satan is also cast into the lake of fire to join the beast
20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

The "rest of the dead" are resurrected and are judged (see verse 5 - in other words those that did not participate in the first resurrection of the blessed)
20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.


Only then is the first earth burnt up, and there is a new heaven and a new earth.
21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

Old Testament verses speak of a time of blessing when Jerusalem is the blessed and holy city, and there is peace on earth.

Depending on the context, these verses could either be referring to the 1000 years when Jesus rules the current earth and the nations with an iron rod , or these verses could be referring to the period (1000 years later) after the new earth has been created. Only the context of the Old Testament chapter can indicate which earth is being referred to:

eg:
Zech 8 speaks of the time when God refers to Jeruslaem as the "city of truth" and dwells in Jerusalem. Yet there are old men in the city ,which speaks of a world where there are mortal people who grow old. This seems to be a period before the New Earth because my understanding of the resurrected body is that all on the New Earth will have a resurrected body and not grow old at all. So I would place this in the 1000 year period of Christ's rule of the nations with an iron rod.
Zech 8:3 Thus saith the LORD; I am returned unto Zion, and will dwell in the midst of Jerusalem: and Jerusalem shall be called a city of truth; and the mountain of the LORD of hosts the holy mountain.
8:4 Thus saith the LORD of hosts; There shall yet old men and old women dwell in the streets of Jerusalem, and every man with his staff in his hand for very age.
8:5 And the streets of the city shall be full of boys and girls playing in the streets thereof.

And verse 23 confirms this. In this period of peace for Jerusalem, for some reason the nations don't seem to have the full blessing of God compared to Jews:

God dwells in Jerusalem yet some are more blessed than others, this makes me think that this is not the new earth where only the resurrected are living.
8:23 Thus saith the LORD of hosts; In those days it shall come to pass, that ten men shall take hold out of all languages of the nations, even shall take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew, saying, We will go with you: for we have heard that God is with you.


The same applies to Isaiah 2, in this period of blessing for Zion, when the nations are no longer at war , the people still do not know the ways of God. The same nations that are judged and rebuked the ones beating their swords into plowshares
2:2 And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.
2:3 And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.
2:4 And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.


In Ezekiel , in the context of the attack of Gog upon Israel , God says:
38:20 So that the fishes of the sea, and the fowls of the heaven, and the beasts of the field, and all creeping things that creep upon the earth, and all the men that are upon the face of the earth, shall shake at my presence, and the mountains shall be thrown down, and the steep places shall fall, and every wall shall fall to the ground

And a few verses later we see that a sixth of the areas of Gog will be left. This indicates that when God appears to earth (I see this as the second coming) a lot of this earth is intact. It must be another time that God destroys the whole earth , but not at the second coming, at the second coming some areas escape.
39:1 Therefore, thou son of man, prophesy against Gog, and say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against thee, O Gog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal:
39:2 And I will turn thee back, and leave but the sixth part of thee, and will cause thee to come up from the north parts, and will bring thee upon the mountains of Israel:


In Joel the bible is saying that when God dwells in Jerusalem, Edom and Egypt will be desolate but does not say that they will be destroyed and burnt up with the whole earth. In other words God dwells on this earth before HE destroys this earth and creates a New Earth.
3:18 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the mountains shall drop down new wine, and the hills shall flow with milk, and all the rivers of Judah shall flow with waters, and a fountain shall come forth out of the house of the LORD, and shall water the valley of ****tim.
3:19 Egypt shall be a desolation, and Edom shall be a desolate wilderness, for the violence against the children of Judah, because they have shed innocent blood in their land.
3:20 But Judah shall dwell for ever, and Jerusalem from generation to generation.
3:21 For I will cleanse their blood that I have not cleansed: for the LORD dwelleth in Zion.

In Zechariah 14 it speaks to me of the second coming and the Day of the Lord:
14:1 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
14:2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
14:3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
14:4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

And a little later the bible says that there are people who are "left of all the nations",and they have no rain if they don't go up to worship the Lord.
14:16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
14:17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.

There are many more verses of this nature, especially Isaiah. I know everyone has their own interpretations , I tend to interpret things literally unless I am certain that the language is metaphorical.

I have therefore come to the conclusion that there will be a period after the second coming when Jesus rules from Jerusalem with an iron rod, this earth will survive the great earthquake even though every mountain is moved. There will be areas laid waste and areas that will survive. Nations will still exist, those left will go up annually to worship the Lord. People will grow old.

This period fits into the 1000 year period of Rev 20 which occurs after the second coming of Rev 19 but before the New Earth of Rev 21, when the earth is full and is deceived by Satan, and the deceived nations attack the holy city. Rev 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. The earth will be highly populated then.

Ok ..if I am understanding this right...since Jerusalem is still there and the wicked are still there ..in a changed world, the believers are unbelievers are still together on the earth...right? All still having children and going about their lives...though the earth is greatly different...is that right?

God bless

moonglow
Dec 1st 2008, 04:10 PM
I actually agree with this. :) However, I believe we are in the Gospel millennium now - where the Gentiles (ethnos) are enlightened.

Me too actually...

Whether this (my question) happens during the thousand years or not, really isn't important...I just want to know who thinks believers are having children...repopulating the New Earth...what the scriptures are and what the point is in doing this...cause I don't get it...:hmm:

God bless

wpm
Dec 1st 2008, 05:11 PM
Me too actually...

Whether this (my question) happens during the thousand years or not, really isn't important...I just want to know who thinks believers are having children...repopulating the New Earth...what the scriptures are and what the point is in doing this...cause I don't get it...:hmm:

God bless

I am waiting for the biblical evidence. I don't personally see it. Moreover, there are a lot of verses showing a climactic Coming that must be circumvented to allow the wicvked to be ushered unto the new earth.

ross3421
Dec 1st 2008, 05:34 PM
Me too actually...

Whether this (my question) happens during the thousand years or not, really isn't important...I just want to know who thinks believers are having children...repopulating the New Earth...what the scriptures are and what the point is in doing this...cause I don't get it...:hmm:

God bless

MG,

It is not believers ie the church which will have offspring in the new earth but Israel ie the remnant.

Eze 37:21 And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land:

Eze 37:22 And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all:

Eze 37:25 And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children's children for ever:

As for the "1000 years" it is a metaphorical phrase. There is not a literal 1000years after Christ returns but 1000s of 1000s years eternity. Satan does spend a period of time in Hell before Christ returns however I see time not measured outside our relm this is why "1000 years" is used.

Mark

DurbanDude
Dec 1st 2008, 06:14 PM
Ok ..if I am understanding this right...since Jerusalem is still there and the wicked are still there ..in a changed world, the believers are unbelievers are still together on the earth...right? All still having children and going about their lives...though the earth is greatly different...is that right?

God bless

Nearly right. We are together on earth, but us believers already receive our resurrection bodies at the second coming (the gathering in the clouds) and live and reign with Christ. The resurrected do not marry or have children , we inherit eternal bodies, and we live in "the camp of the saints" in the beloved city.

20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them

The survivors of the nations are the only other group. The Jews of these survivors are especially blessed , this is the time written about when the Messiah sets up Israel as foremost among the nations. There are tons of verses about this , some which I showed already. Nothing in history has fulfilled these verses about the blessing of Israel under the rule of the Messiah, when the Messiah destroys all of Israel's enemies and then creates world peace.

Amills seem to interpret these verses as referring to our blessing in a spiritual manner by being "spiritual Jews" because we are grafted into the vine after the first coming of Christ, and us Christians in the present age are the Jerusalem filled with peace (ie we are the temple of God and the priesthood). I prefer to see these as very literal verses that are to be literally fulfilled at the second coming. This is what my heart tells me when I read of the Messiah coming to Zion and his wrath on the armies that attack Jerusalem , and how He restores the fortune of Israel.

Raybob
Dec 1st 2008, 06:44 PM
Rev 20 says those that those who do not worship the beast are resurrected before the millenium, they reign with Christ therefore are not part of the nations that are ruled with an iron rod during the millenium.

I must be reading a different bible. I can't find that verse anywhere in Rev. 20. I give up, where is that?

Raybob

wpm
Dec 1st 2008, 08:10 PM
The survivors of the nations are the only other group. The Jews of these survivors are especially blessed , this is the time written about when the Messiah sets up Israel as foremost among the nations. There are tons of verses about this , some which I showed already. Nothing in history has fulfilled these verses about the blessing of Israel under the rule of the Messiah, when the Messiah destroys all of Israel's enemies and then creates world peace.

In one breath you arguing that the beast's army that came against Jerusalem are completely detroyed (Rev 19), in the next you are arguing that many survive and swamp your millennial earth (Zech 14). Which is it?


Amills seem to interpret these verses as referring to our blessing in a spiritual manner by being "spiritual Jews" because we are grafted into the vine after the first coming of Christ, and us Christians in the present age are the Jerusalem filled with peace (ie we are the temple of God and the priesthood). I prefer to see these as very literal verses that are to be literally fulfilled at the second coming. This is what my heart tells me when I read of the Messiah coming to Zion and his wrath on the armies that attack Jerusalem , and how He restores the fortune of Israel

Zion is the elect. We have already shown you that Jerusalem below is in bondage. The Bible likens her to Sodom and Egypt today. The fig tree has been cursed 2,000 yrs ago. God's chosen people are now the nations (plural). You cannot seem to grasp this. I feel the Premil thinking is OT thinking. It forgets we have now moved into the NT with its new arrangement.

Premil resurrects the whole OT arrangement from animal sacrifices, high priest, temple rituals to physical Israel being pre-eminent above all nationalities when the NT negates that.

moonglow
Dec 1st 2008, 09:16 PM
Originally Posted by DurbanDude
Rev 20 says those that those who do not worship the beast are resurrected before the millenium, they reign with Christ therefore are not part of the nations that are ruled with an iron rod during the millenium.


I must be reading a different bible. I can't find that verse anywhere in Rev. 20. I give up, where is that?

Raybob

Revelation 20

The Saints Reign with Christ 1000 Years

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a[a] thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.

There you go...

God bless

moonglow
Dec 1st 2008, 09:22 PM
Nearly right. We are together on earth, but us believers already receive our resurrection bodies at the second coming (the gathering in the clouds) and live and reign with Christ. The resurrected do not marry or have children , we inherit eternal bodies, and we live in "the camp of the saints" in the beloved city.

20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them

The survivors of the nations are the only other group. The Jews of these survivors are especially blessed , this is the time written about when the Messiah sets up Israel as foremost among the nations. There are tons of verses about this , some which I showed already. Nothing in history has fulfilled these verses about the blessing of Israel under the rule of the Messiah, when the Messiah destroys all of Israel's enemies and then creates world peace.

Amills seem to interpret these verses as referring to our blessing in a spiritual manner by being "spiritual Jews" because we are grafted into the vine after the first coming of Christ, and us Christians in the present age are the Jerusalem filled with peace (ie we are the temple of God and the priesthood). I prefer to see these as very literal verses that are to be literally fulfilled at the second coming. This is what my heart tells me when I read of the Messiah coming to Zion and his wrath on the armies that attack Jerusalem , and how He restores the fortune of Israel.

Since when Christ returns to get rid of the wicked that surround the city...that means there are wicked on this New Earth also...is that right? So we have the good and bad still on the New Earth?

Sorry if I am slow in understanding this...

Ok if I have this right (in what you are saying)...then what about this passage how does it fit into things?

Revelation 21
All Things Made New
1 Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea. 2 Then I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God. 4 And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away.”

5 Then He who sat on the throne said, “Behold, I make all things new.” And He said to me, “Write, for these words are true and faithful.”
6 And He said to me, “It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. I will give of the fountain of the water of life freely to him who thirsts. 7 He who overcomes shall inherit all things, and I will be his God and he shall be My son. 8 But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”

I thought this was for all believers...:hmm:

God bless

third hero
Dec 1st 2008, 09:23 PM
I think it's just common sense. The Bible "lets admit" is not the most detailed book when you read it, so you have to use common sense to. So who repopulates the Milenium after the Tribulation? The Christians that survived the Trib.

How are the Christians that survive the Great Tribulation the ones that repopulate when in Revelation 20, these are the ones who are given immortality? Are you saying that they will be able to reproduce? Also, if the Lord gives these people immortality, and they are able to reproduce, how can the incorruptible produce corruptible children who would first not be immortal, and second be rebellious agianst God?

Looks like we need more than "common" sense in order to understand the Bible, especially prophecy.

moonglow
Dec 1st 2008, 09:26 PM
MG,

It is not believers ie the church which will have offspring in the new earth but Israel ie the remnant.

Eze 37:21 And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land:

Eze 37:22 And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all:

Eze 37:25 And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children's children for ever:

As for the "1000 years" it is a metaphorical phrase. There is not a literal 1000years after Christ returns but 1000s of 1000s years eternity. Satan does spend a period of time in Hell before Christ returns however I see time not measured outside our relm this is why "1000 years" is used.

Mark

Oops almost missed your post...

Ok I agree...I don't think its a literal 1000 years either. You are saying that the Jews will live on the New Earth in peace...forever? Is that right?

God bless

third hero
Dec 1st 2008, 09:31 PM
Premil depend upon one single passage - Rev 20. However, if you look at the climactic detail of Rev 19 you will see like elsewhere in Scripture all the wicked are destroyed - both free and bond. All flesh!!! This in my view disallows the Premil concept.

THAT'S RIGHT. WE RELY ON REVELATION 20! We should, because Revelation 20 IS SCRIPTURE!


John Metcalfe

First mistake. John Metcalfe is not one of the original 12, and thus, I can ignore what he says, because he does not posess the truth. Sola scriptura BABY!


Harold Hazelip

Second mistake. You detect a pattern here? I do not rely on anyone, not the church "forefathers", not the current preacher, not you or anyone else. I rely on Scripture, and those who highlight scripture above all else. Scripture, especially when the Holy Spirit teaches it, makes complete sense, and nothing else can match it. Thisis the wisdom of babes, and I wouldn't have it any other way.



There is no mention of such a millennial period anywhere else. Because of this you have to force all "the last days" passages that we have shown you that relate to the intra-Advent and the new heavens and new earth" passages that relate to the climactic Coming of Christ and create a supposed future millennium. I hate to disappoint you but it will not happen. Your millennium is just a mirror of our day with sin abounding, the bondage of corruption prospering (after Christ has just removed it at the general resurrection Romans 8). This doesn't add up. Death, funerals, hatred, strife and wickedness persist. The deceived grow to such a degree that they swamp the millennium. Sounds like our day!!! ;)


There needs not be any other place in the Bible that makes a mention of a 1000 year period. There are many other verses that mention what happens during the time when the Lord rules the entire earth from Jerusalem. Revelation 20 makes clear what happens in the spritual realm what scriptures in both the OT and NT explains in the physical.

This is why I hang my hat on Revelation 20. It is scripture, like Romans, Matthew, Genesis, and Isaiah. It means that the ones who do not accept it have problems, and not the premils, who accepts ALL scripture as written.

ross3421
Dec 1st 2008, 10:02 PM
You are saying that the Jews will live on the New Earth in peace...forever? Is that right?

God bless

Yes. Israel will inherit the land outside the city while the "church" will live within the city walls. When we make this distinction, life on the new earth appears a bit different than we have been taught.

Forgiven Alaskan
Dec 2nd 2008, 02:34 AM
Yes those killed during the Trib will be resurected. But not literally every Christian alive during the Trib will die. If Jesus hadn't shortned the days they would, but they don't all die!

You may be ready for an eternal body since we will already be eternal at that point and we won't be able to have children anyway. But those with mortal bodies will be able to conceive and have children,and why wouldn't they want children? Maybe many of them will have been without a family so far.

Moonglow it sounds like just because you wouldn't want to have any more children at that time, you couldn't understand why anyone else would want or have children in the millennium.

That is not really a good reason to argue your point. It sounds like you are interpreting your own desires into the scriptures more than me.

moonglow
Dec 2nd 2008, 03:46 AM
Yes those killed during the Trib will be resurected. But not literally every Christian alive during the Trib will die. If Jesus hadn't shortned the days they would, but they don't all die!

You may be ready for an eternal body since we will already be eternal at that point and we won't be able to have children anyway. But those with mortal bodies will be able to conceive and have children,and why wouldn't they want children? Maybe many of them will have been without a family so far.

Moonglow it sounds like just because you wouldn't want to have any more children at that time, you couldn't understand why anyone else would want or have children in the millennium.

That is not really a good reason to argue your point. It sounds like you are interpreting your own desires into the scriptures more than me.

No...I think it would be odd for anyone to go by what they want in this time and try to insert it in the bible...I wouldn't want to begrudge anyone a child at all...

Instead of jumping to conclusions as to why I find it strange, remember my first post...I have never heard of such an idea at all...ever! If I presented some idea to you that you never heard of you may need some time to process it too....so don't do that to me please and think you can see in my head and know what I want or don't...this isn't about me at all...its about the Word of God...what I want is not important...ok?

I still think its strange though as I said before the bible, progresses from the physical, literal in the OT to the spiritual in the NT...and Paul speaks of our spiritual bodies...not one mention of some not having spiritual bodies so they can reproduce and repopulate the New Earth. As I said in my first post...I have never ever read such a thing anywhere in all my years of bible studies...never heard one preacher mention it at all...ever...which that seems odd if so many believe this. I really don't see the point in people just doing what they have been doing...what's their to look forward too? There will be plenty of children...including those that died during miscarriages and abortions and child abuse, disease, accidents...to populate the New Earth...so I just don't understand the reason for it....:hmm:


ross3421
Quote:

Originally Posted by moonglow
You are saying that the Jews will live on the New Earth in peace...forever? Is that right?

God bless
Yes. Israel will inherit the land outside the city while the "church" will live within the city walls. When we make this distinction, life on the new earth appears a bit different than we have been taught.

Ok then where are the wicked at? (I might be getting you confused with some other posts on here..just let me know)...apparently the wicked are still around...

If the wicked are around I just don't see how this can be the New Earth...everything is suppose to be 'new'...death and sin done away with...so how can the wicked still be around?

Revelation 21
All Things Made New
1 Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea. 2 Then I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God. 4 And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away.”

5 Then He who sat on the throne said, “Behold, I make all things new.” And He said to me, “Write, for these words are true and faithful.”
6 And He said to me, “It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. I will give of the fountain of the water of life freely to him who thirsts. 7 He who overcomes shall inherit all things, and I will be his God and he shall be My son. 8 But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”

God bless

third hero
Dec 2nd 2008, 03:48 AM
I must be reading a different bible. I can't find that verse anywhere in Rev. 20. I give up, where is that?

Raybob
Here, Try Revelation 20:4-6. Couple that with Revelation 14:12-15, Matthew 24:29-31 and Daniel 7: 13-14, 22, 27. I can't help you with the glasses though, so if you can't read it, I suggest a good optimologist. ;)

angel_fire
Dec 2nd 2008, 04:18 AM
My mom touched on this awhile back, so my mind is a bit foggy. So please bare with me.
Here is my Scripture
--------------------------------------------------
Revelation
.23 They shall not labor in vain,
Nor bring forth children for trouble;
For they shall be the descendants of the blessed of the LORD,
And their offspring with them.
----------------------------------------------------------
During the 1000 years, a new world. Many children died before birth, many died before the age of 7 in the old world.

During the 1000 years, the new people, the Elect will reproduce, painless births, children that are good, and will not cause trouble.

At the end of the 1000 years, those children will be changed so that they may choose who they want to be with, God or Satan.

I hope that helps you better understand. Like I said, I am a bit foggy and need to call mom tomorrow .

ross3421
Dec 2nd 2008, 05:50 AM
Ok then where are the wicked at? (I might be getting you confused with some other posts on here..just let me know)...apparently the wicked are still around...

There are no wicked remaining after Christ returns as they are killed, judged and cast into the lake of fire. Israel ie the 144,000 remnant repent and give God the glory before Christ returns. However they too must be killed according to the scriptures but they remain alongwith the church body forever with the Lord.

Re 11:13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.

DurbanDude
Dec 2nd 2008, 05:56 AM
I must be reading a different bible. I can't find that verse anywhere in Rev. 20. I give up, where is that?

Raybob
20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

wpm
Dec 2nd 2008, 06:16 AM
Yes those killed during the Trib will be resurected. But not literally every Christian alive during the Trib will die. If Jesus hadn't shortned the days they would, but they don't all die!

You may be ready for an eternal body since we will already be eternal at that point and we won't be able to have children anyway. But those with mortal bodies will be able to conceive and have children,and why wouldn't they want children? Maybe many of them will have been without a family so far.

Moonglow it sounds like just because you wouldn't want to have any more children at that time, you couldn't understand why anyone else would want or have children in the millennium.

That is not really a good reason to argue your point. It sounds like you are interpreting your own desires into the scriptures more than me.

But I Thessalonians 4:15-5:5 shows there will be the live in Christ at His appearing: “For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words. But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.”

wpm
Dec 2nd 2008, 06:21 AM
THAT'S RIGHT. WE RELY ON REVELATION 20! We should, because Revelation 20 IS SCRIPTURE!



First mistake. John Metcalfe is not one of the original 12, and thus, I can ignore what he says, because he does not posess the truth. Sola scriptura BABY!



Second mistake. You detect a pattern here? I do not rely on anyone, not the church "forefathers", not the current preacher, not you or anyone else. I rely on Scripture, and those who highlight scripture above all else. Scripture, especially when the Holy Spirit teaches it, makes complete sense, and nothing else can match it. Thisis the wisdom of babes, and I wouldn't have it any other way.





There needs not be any other place in the Bible that makes a mention of a 1000 year period. There are many other verses that mention what happens during the time when the Lord rules the entire earth from Jerusalem. Revelation 20 makes clear what happens in the spritual realm what scriptures in both the OT and NT explains in the physical.

This is why I hang my hat on Revelation 20. It is scripture, like Romans, Matthew, Genesis, and Isaiah. It means that the ones who do not accept it have problems, and not the premils, who accepts ALL scripture as written.

As I keep reminding you. Amils believe and stand upon the book of Revelation as much as any other book in the Bible. They see it as supporting a climactic Coming of Christ. However, you keep throwing out your mistaken charge against them. It does your argument to benefit, rather injury.

In all our many discussions you are yet to furnish me (or other Amils) with a clear conclusive millennial passage relating to a period after the Coming of Christ. Rev 19 actually forbids your paradigm as it is the end of the world and all of the wicked are finally and totally destroyed.

Revelation 19:19-21 outlines the occasion and realisation of this final feat of wrath, saying,“And I saw the beast (the anti-Christ system of this world - intra-Advent ),and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army. And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. The loipoy (or) remaining ones (or) those left behind were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.”

DurbanDude
Dec 2nd 2008, 06:25 AM
In one breath you arguing that the beast's army that came against Jerusalem are completely detroyed (Rev 19), in the next you are arguing that many survive and swamp your millennial earth (Zech 14). Which is it?



wpm, I find when I'm discussing things with you, I have to repeat myself again and again, and you are battling to catch on, or maybe forgetting what I've said before.

The armies attacking Israel are completely destroyed. There are survivors of the wrath at the second coming in other places outside of Armageddon.

In my first explanation to Moonglow I listed some of the verses that showed survivors of the nations when the Messiah sets up his rule, there are others verses too that show this. And there are many verses that confirm there is complete destruction for the armies that attack Israel. I didn't think this was a debatable topic anyone was interested in, but I can show you some verses about that too. Would you like me too?

I think you are confusing my PoV with your own PoV. I believe that amills regard the post-millenium war when all the inhabitants of earth gather to fight as the same war as when Gog attacks Jerusalem at the second coming.
I believe not everyone will be involved in Armageddon at the second coming, the nations will have their armies there but not their entire populations. I have not seen any verse to indicate that entire populations will be there.


Zion is the elect. We have already shown you that Jerusalem below is in bondage. The Bible likens her to Sodom and Egypt today. The fig tree has been cursed 2,000 yrs ago. God's chosen people are now the nations (plural). You cannot seem to grasp this. I feel the Premil thinking is OT thinking. It forgets we have now moved into the NT with its new arrangement.

Premil resurrects the whole OT arrangement from animal sacrifices, high priest, temple rituals to physical Israel being pre-eminent above all nationalities when the NT negates that.

I have said nothing like this. Old Testament verses have not been fulfilled yet, and they relate specifically to the physical second coming of the Jewish Messiah. He is Jesus. We cannot overspiritualise these verses that are describing the second coming.
Not only Amills, but many others seem to forget that the special blessing upon the Jewish race specifically is still to come. This is both a NT and an OT concept, read Romans 11, this whole chapter is very clear. This does not at all take away from the fact that the Gentile believers have the full destiny of the resurrected saints.

wpm
Dec 2nd 2008, 06:37 AM
You made the previous claim:


Rev 20 says those that those who do not worship the beast are resurrected before the millenium, they reign with Christ therefore are not part of the nations that are ruled with an iron rod during the millenium.



You submitted the following to support your claim:


20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.


This is John seeing the dead in Christ in this intra-Advent period -those you had triumphed over the beast and his mark. Revelation 20:4 says, “And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they ézeesen lived (aorist active indicative) and reigned (aorist active indicative) with Christ a thousand years.”

This verse describes the great ongoing spiritual reign of the redeemed in the heavenly domain. Whilst this passage refers to the dead in Christ, there is a sense that the ‘live in Christ’ are also positionally seated in heaven “in Christ.” At this stage it is important to secure absolutes; this is definitely a heavenly scene. Moreover, it is a present ongoing reality in this intra-Advent period. The text tells us that those that live and reign are active in that endeavour in this current millennial age. They currently exist in the state described. The fact is, this is speaking of the thousand years and showing us the authority and victory that the dead and Christ currently enjoy within the heavenly domain.

wpm
Dec 2nd 2008, 06:46 AM
wpm, I find when I'm discussing things with you, I have to repeat myself again and again, and you are battling to catch on, or maybe forgetting what I've said before.

The armies attacking Israel are completely destroyed. There are survivors of the wrath at the second coming in other places outside of Armageddon.

In my first explanation to Moonglow I listed some of the verses that showed survivors of the nations when the Messiah sets up his rule, there are others verses too that show this. And there are many verses that confirm there is complete destruction for the armies that attack Israel. I didn't think this was a debatable topic anyone was interested in, but I can show you some verses about that too. Would you like me too?

I think you are confusing my PoV with your own PoV. I believe that amills regard the post-millenium war when all the inhabitants of earth gather to fight as the same war as when Gog attacks Jerusalem at the second coming.
I believe not everyone will be involved in Armageddon at the second coming, the nations will have their armies there but not their entire populations. I have not seen any verse to indicate that entire populations will be there.



I have said nothing like this. Old Testament verses have not been fulfilled yet, and they relate specifically to the physical second coming of the Jewish Messiah. He is Jesus. We cannot overspiritualise these verses that are describing the second coming.
Not only Amills, but many others seem to forget that the special blessing upon the Jewish race specifically is still to come. This is both a NT and an OT concept, read Romans 11, this whole chapter is very clear. This does not at all take away from the fact that the Gentile believers have the full destiny of the resurrected saints.

First, I am not going to sidetrack unto the Jews. Also, I wasn't actually addressing you. Why do you take it personal? I have discussed this with enough Premil here to know their arguments. My difficulty is pinning them down. They keep jumping about. Unfortunately I also don't believe you have furnished us with evidence. I can't get any of you to stay enough on one passage to get you to address the many conflicts between all your supposed proof texts. When there is a difficulty it seems Premils jump to another text, all the time the conflicts grow.

So, please address the conflicts between Rev 19 and Zech 14.

I again repeat, and would appreciate your assistance:

In one breath you argue that the beast's army that came against Jerusalem is completely detroyed (Rev 19), in the next you are arguing that many survive and swamp your millennial earth (Zech 14). Which is it?

When we are sorted this we can move on.

DurbanDude
Dec 2nd 2008, 07:48 AM
You made the previous claim:



You submitted the following to support your claim:



This is John seeing the dead in Christ in this intra-Advent period -those you had triumphed over the beast and his mark. Revelation 20:4 says, “And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they ézeesen lived (aorist active indicative) and reigned (aorist active indicative) with Christ a thousand years.”

This verse describes the great ongoing spiritual reign of the redeemed in the heavenly domain. Whilst this passage refers to the dead in Christ, there is a sense that the ‘live in Christ’ are also positionally seated in heaven “in Christ.” At this stage it is important to secure absolutes; this is definitely a heavenly scene. Moreover, it is a present ongoing reality in this intra-Advent period. The text tells us that those that live and reign are active in that endeavour in this current millennial age. They currently exist in the state described. The fact is, this is speaking of the thousand years and showing us the authority and victory that the dead and Christ currently enjoy within the heavenly domain.

Yes, i agree with your absolutes.

As I have said before , the saints get resurrected and live in the "camp" of the saints in the beloved city with Christ for 1000 years. I believe this will be very literally fulfilled. You yourself believe the military attack by Satan at the end of the milllenium is physical, not just a spiritual metaphor. Why don't you then believe the camp of the saints in the beloved city during the 1000 year period is also physical? How do you relate the current period of spiritual reigning with Christ to this:

20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

btw I use many more verses than Rev to support my view.

DurbanDude
Dec 2nd 2008, 09:05 AM
First, I am not going to sidetrack unto the Jews. Also, I wasn't actually addressing you. Why do you take it personal? I have discussed this with enough Premil here to know their arguments. My difficulty is pinning them down. They keep jumping about. Unfortunately I also don't believe you have furnished us with evidence. I can't get any of you to stay enough on one passage to get you to address the many conflicts between all your supposed proof texts. When there is a difficulty it seems Premils jump to another text, all the time the conflicts grow.

So, please address the conflicts between Rev 19 and Zech 14.

I again repeat, and would appreciate your assistance:

In one breath you argue that the beast's army that came against Jerusalem is completely detroyed (Rev 19), in the next you are arguing that many survive and swamp your millennial earth (Zech 14). Which is it?

When we are sorted this we can move on.

It is perfectly explained in my previous answer. There are no conflicts there. Zechariah 14:12 and Rev 19:18-21 refer to the complete destruction of the enemies that attack Jerusalem. Yet Zech 14:16-18 and Revelation 19:15 speak of Jesus ruling over nations after this war.

The armies that arrive in Israel are destroyed. Some of those that did not participate in the war will survive.

They are perfectly in unison, there is no difficulty here and we have discussed this many times.

DurbanDude
Dec 2nd 2008, 10:44 AM
Since when Christ returns to get rid of the wicked that surround the city...that means there are wicked on this New Earth also...is that right? So we have the good and bad still on the New Earth?

Sorry if I am slow in understanding this...

Ok if I have this right (in what you are saying)...then what about this passage how does it fit into things?

Revelation 21
All Things Made New
1 Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea. 2 Then I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God. 4 And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away.”

5 Then He who sat on the throne said, “Behold, I make all things new.” And He said to me, “Write, for these words are true and faithful.”
6 And He said to me, “It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. I will give of the fountain of the water of life freely to him who thirsts. 7 He who overcomes shall inherit all things, and I will be his God and he shall be My son. 8 But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”

I thought this was for all believers...:hmm:

God bless

Hi Moonglow, well you are sounding very confused now:hmm:

No , the wicked are destroyed forever by being cast into the lake of fire at the end of the 1000 years just before the New earth is created, so no wicked partake of the new earth.

Christ returns 1000 years earlier and destroys those armies attacking Jerusalem. These armies are the allies of Gog and are mainly Moslem countries and do not include all the nations. Jesus establishes His reign from "the blessed city" where the
"camp of the saints" is. The saints with immortal bodies reign with christ over the mortals on the current earth.

Only at the end of the 1000 years do all the inhabitants of earth surround the "blessed city"

The verses you have quoted are referring to the new earth after the millenium, when the ungodly are forever in the lake of fire. Yes, the new earth is for all believers and all the ungodly are deceived by Satan and cast into the lake of fire.

Romulus
Dec 2nd 2008, 03:56 PM
Or even what scriptures this is drawn from. I never heard of it before...its just been over the last six months or so I have noticed people on here mentioning it but never including scriptures with it. I guess they assume everyone knows what part of the bible they are talking about...but I certainly don't! I have no clue where they are getting this idea from.

So first, I ask for the scriptures on it...and second what's the point? I really don't see a point in people repopulating a New Earth....not when you consider the millions, if not billions of believers since man was created...seems like to me there would be enough of us to start with. So why add more? It makes no sense to me and seems like such a foreign idea actually because I don't see this in scriptures..I have never heard one preacher talk about it...never read it in any bible related books.. even when I read Paul talking about the future return of Christ...our future new bodies and so forth, he doesn't mention one word of repopulating the New Earth...:hmm:

Thanks.

God bless

Moonglow,

I am probably the only one who believes this, but there is no command to re-populate the world. If we believe there is it implies that there must be a destruction as well. There is rather an old command forgotten by most because of sin:

Genesis

1:27 And God made man, according to the image of God he made him,
male and female he made them.

1:28 And God blessed them, saying, Increase and multiply, and fill the earth and subdue it, and have dominion over the fish of the seas and flying creatures of heaven, and all the cattle and all the earth, and all the reptiles that creep on the earth.

If this was God's orignal plan for humanity and now Christ has restored the relationship between God and man, Heaven and Earth, does not this command still stand?

Was not the whole reason Adam did not fulfill the dominion mandate because sin cast him out from God's presence? Are we not back in God's presence because of Christ?

I don't believe there is a command to re-populate but an original command for this Earth. We are to populate the world with believers in Christ. Does not the great commission state that we are to baptise the nations? Not individuals but nations? With those converted by the power of God's Word, if all our children were brought up as believers and their children brought up as believers and so on and so on, would not in time the world have a Christian majority?

Not a very popular view since the earth is not destroyed and the sun doesn't stop shining, or stars fall from the sky etc. but I believe it was what God always planned.

God Bless!

wpm
Dec 2nd 2008, 04:27 PM
Yes, i agree with your absolutes.

As I have said before , the saints get resurrected and live in the "camp" of the saints in the beloved city with Christ for 1000 years. I believe this will be very literally fulfilled. You yourself believe the military attack by Satan at the end of the milllenium is physical, not just a spiritual metaphor. Why don't you then believe the camp of the saints in the beloved city during the 1000 year period is also physical? How do you relate the current period of spiritual reigning with Christ to this:

20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

btw I use many more verses than Rev to support my view.

First I was talking specifically of the 1,000 yrs issue to 3H. I don't see any other supporting passages for this description or time-period. Some of the verses you and others have used relate to the last days or the new heavens and new earth, which I believe relate to another time, and do not mention the detail contained in Rev 20.

Second, I believe even though we live in a physical domain, our battles in these last days (millennial period) are spiritual. Rev 20 does not mention the wicked attacking Jerusalem - only the camp of the saints. I simply believe that is referring to the redeemed Church at the end. So I don't hold to that Premil concept.

Rev 20 is filled with symbolism, so is the whole book. Numbers and symbols are figuratively used to impress deep spiritual truths. Some of these are highly obscure'

There are:

Creatures full of eyes with 6 wings (4:6)
A 7-eyed lamb (5:6)
People talking to mountains (6:16)
People being washed clean by blood (7:14)
Locusts with human faces (9:7)
Lion-headed horse (9:17)
Fire-breathing prophets (11:5)
A woman clothed with the sun while standing on the moon (12:1)
7-headed dragon that pulls stars down from heaven (12:3-4)
Serpent vomiting out a river (12:15)
7-headed beast with 10 horns (13:1)
Frogs coming out of the mouth of a dragon (16:13)
A blood-drinking harlot (17:6)

wpm
Dec 2nd 2008, 05:42 PM
Moonglow,

I am probably the only one who believes this, but there is no command to re-populate the world. If we believe there is it implies that there must be a destruction as well. There is rather an old command forgotten by most because of sin:

Genesis

1:27 And God made man, according to the image of God he made him,
male and female he made them.

1:28 And God blessed them, saying, Increase and multiply, and fill the earth and subdue it, and have dominion over the fish of the seas and flying creatures of heaven, and all the cattle and all the earth, and all the reptiles that creep on the earth.

If this was God's orignal plan for humanity and now Christ has restored the relationship between God and man, Heaven and Earth, does not this command still stand?

Was not the whole reason Adam did not fulfill the dominion mandate because sin cast him out from God's presence? Are we not back in God's presence because of Christ?

I don't believe there is a command to re-populate but an original command for this Earth. We are to populate the world with believers in Christ. Does not the great commission state that we are to baptise the nations? Not individuals but nations? With those converted by the power of God's Word, if all our children were brought up as believers and their children brought up as believers and so on and so on, would not in time the world have a Christian majority?

Not a very popular view since the earth is not destroyed and the sun doesn't stop shining, or the wicked are killed by fire etc. but I believe it was what God always planned.

God Bless!

This heresy is banned on this board.

Romulus
Dec 2nd 2008, 05:58 PM
This heresy is banned on this board.

Well not really. This is a point of view held by many Partial-Preterists as well as Post-Millenialists that before the 2nd coming of Christ the world will be evangelized and then after a long period of time Christ will return bodily and the Kingdom will be fuly established. This is the foundation of Dominion Theology and Christian Reconstructionism held by many Christians and is not considered an unorthodox belief.

Just because Full-Preterists also agree with this concept does not automatically make it heresy. It is not guilt by association.

Please be careful in throwing around the heresy term. :)

God Bless!

wpm
Dec 2nd 2008, 06:32 PM
Well not really. This is a point of view held by many Partial-Preterists as well as Post-Millenialists that before the 2nd coming of Christ the world will be evangelized and then after a long period of time Christ will return bodily and the Kingdom will be fuly established. This is the foundation of Dominion Theology and Christian Reconstructionism held by many Christians and is not considered an unorthodox belief.

Just because Full-Preterists also agree with this concept does not automatically make it heresy. It is not guilt by association.

Please be careful in throwing around the heresy term. :)

God Bless!

I was not actually talking about that. Partial Preterist and all orthodox Christians believe Jesus is physically coming for His people at His Coming and will destroy the earth (whether immediately or eventually), and the sun will stop shining and the wicked are killed by fire. You believe the opposite. You said:




Not a very popular view since the earth is not destroyed and the sun doesn't stop shining, or the wicked are killed by fire etc. but I believe it was what God always planned.

quiet dove
Dec 2nd 2008, 07:04 PM
Moonglow,

I am probably the only one who believes this, but there is no command to re-populate the world. If we believe there is it implies that there must be a destruction as well. There is rather an old command forgotten by most because of sin:

Genesis

1:27 And God made man, according to the image of God he made him,
male and female he made them.

1:28 And God blessed them, saying, Increase and multiply, and fill the earth and subdue it, and have dominion over the fish of the seas and flying creatures of heaven, and all the cattle and all the earth, and all the reptiles that creep on the earth.

If this was God's orignal plan for humanity and now Christ has restored the relationship between God and man, Heaven and Earth, does not this command still stand?

Was not the whole reason Adam did not fulfill the dominion mandate because sin cast him out from God's presence? Are we not back in God's presence because of Christ?

I don't believe there is a command to re-populate but an original command for this Earth. We are to populate the world with believers in Christ. Does not the great commission state that we are to baptise the nations? Not individuals but nations? With those converted by the power of God's Word, if all our children were brought up as believers and their children brought up as believers and so on and so on, would not in time the world have a Christian majority?

Not a very popular view since the earth is not destroyed and the sun doesn't stop shining, or stars fall from the sky etc. but I believe it was what God always planned.

God Bless!

Even unsaved men have dominion over the fish and animals, the planet. Animals do not fear men because of the men, but because it is God given within them to do so. And even believers such as ourselves await the moment when we are changed to immortal/incorruptible, so it does not matter how much Christianity is upon the earth and if believers have the majority, until we are changed, as we are promised in scripture to be, given new bodies, immortal and incorruptible, the flesh exist and the earth is still burdened under the curse of sin. If every single human being alive got saved tomorrow, we would all still battle against the flesh and the earth would still groan, as we and the earth awaited being "changed".

Even as a born again believer I have no desire to live forever in this old body. And a Christian majority is not going to happen and even if it did, dominion does not say over men, it says over the earth, over the animal kingdom, that does not equate to a Christian majority forcing their will upon other men, even God does not force us to love Him and obey Him, that is a choice we must make.

Would all men being believer upon the earth, regenerate a curse earth? No. Only Christ can regenerate this earth and only Christ can create a new one. If every person on the face of the earth got saved today it would not relieve the earth from the curse of sin. Nor would it relieve us from our battle with the flesh.

Romulus
Dec 2nd 2008, 07:12 PM
I was not actually talking about that. Partial Preterist and all orthodox Christians believe Jesus is physically coming for His people at His Coming and will destroy the earth (whether immediately or eventually), and the sun will stop shining and the wicked are killed by fire. You believe the opposite. You said:

True, but Partial-Preterism believes that the celestial events such as the Sun not shining are not literal. It has to since Partial-Preterism believes that most of the end time events have happened already. This is how it explains these events as not literally happening. Partial-Preterism believes that this is an alussion to Isaiah concerning judgement that was not meant to be taken as a literal event. Also there are many within Partial-Preterism who believe that Fire will not come down from heaven at the 2nd coming since this is also judgement language. This entire P.O.V. (even though these events are to be taken figuratively) then believes that Jesus will physically come back with the Resurrection of the Dead, and the Final Judgment to begin following with the New Jerusalem.

This is symbolic language used in the same light as in the Old Testament. This is the view held by many Partial-Preterists and is not considered unorthodox. It does not question that Christ is coming back (physically) and that His Kingdom will be fully established at this time.

moonglow
Dec 2nd 2008, 07:24 PM
Even unsaved men have dominion over the fish and animals, the planet. Animals do not fear men because of the men, but because it is God given within them to do so. And even believers such as ourselves await the moment when we are changed to immortal/incorruptible, so it does not matter how much Christianity is upon the earth and if believers have the majority, until we are changed, as we are promised in scripture to be, given new bodies, immortal and incorruptible, the flesh exist and the earth is still burdened under the curse of sin. If every single human being alive got saved tomorrow, we would all still battle against the flesh and the earth would still groan, as we and the earth awaited being "changed".

Even as a born again believer I have no desire to live forever in this old body. And a Christian majority is not going to happen and even if it did, dominion does not say over men, it says over the earth, over the animal kingdom, that does not equate to a Christian majority forcing their will upon other men, even God does not force us to love Him and obey Him, that is a choice we must make.

Would all men being believer upon the earth, regenerate a curse earth? No. Only Christ can regenerate this earth and only Christ can create a new one. If every person on the face of the earth got saved today it would not relieve the earth from the curse of sin. Nor would it relieve us from our battle with the flesh.

Yea what she said...:lol: And I am Partial Preterist...but this idea of having anyone go on in their same bodies...where death still exists just to repopulate the New Earth...makes no sense to me. What happened to these promises of new bodies? I would think to continue on, even in peace, in the same state with our bodies, would be an awful judgment against those left to live this way..its like getting half the promises...but not all....and I don't understand that....and I see no point it in either.

God bless

moonglow
Dec 2nd 2008, 07:56 PM
Hi Moonglow, well you are sounding very confused now:hmm:

No , the wicked are destroyed forever by being cast into the lake of fire at the end of the 1000 years just before the New earth is created, so no wicked partake of the new earth.

Christ returns 1000 years earlier and destroys those armies attacking Jerusalem. These armies are the allies of Gog and are mainly Moslem countries and do not include all the nations. Jesus establishes His reign from "the blessed city" where the
"camp of the saints" is. The saints with immortal bodies reign with christ over the mortals on the current earth.

Who are those with mortal bodies?

Only at the end of the 1000 years do all the inhabitants of earth surround the "blessed city"

The verses you have quoted are referring to the new earth after the millenium, when the ungodly are forever in the lake of fire. Yes, the new earth is for all believers and all the ungodly are deceived by Satan and cast into the lake of fire.

Yea saying I am confused is an understatement at this point...:lol:

I am not responding much to people's posts because I am too confused to really know what to say at this point...sorry.

God bless

John146
Dec 2nd 2008, 08:02 PM
I believe the new earth is ushered in with the arrival of the eternal age to come that Jesus spoke about. In this temporal age, people marry and they die. In the eternal age to come we will have a new earth and no one will marry or die anymore.

Luke 20
34And Jesus answering said unto them, The children of this world marry, and are given in marriage: 35But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage:
36Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.

Rev 21
1And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

Since there will be no marriage then that implies that there will be no more procreation. So the idea that the new earth will be repopulated or that people will be having children during that time doesn't hold water.

moonglow
Dec 2nd 2008, 09:12 PM
I believe the new earth is ushered in with the arrival of the eternal age to come that Jesus spoke about. In this temporal age, people marry and they die. In the eternal age to come we will have a new earth and no one will marry or die anymore.

Luke 20
34And Jesus answering said unto them, The children of this world marry, and are given in marriage: 35But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage:
36Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.

Rev 21
1And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

Since there will be no marriage then that implies that there will be no more procreation. So the idea that the new earth will be repopulated or that people will be having children during that time doesn't hold water.

This is how I have always understood it too....the issue isn't just about people having children...that was just one point out of many...the very fact we would be able to procreate after the New Earth was set up...also includes death! And growing old...even if sin were done away with...which come to think of it that can't be possible because sin brings physical death...:hmm:

Ok so then sin would have to exist on this New Earth...so how would that make it new? How are the old things done away with if really nothing to little has changed? If even the verses in Isaiah were to be taken literally where people live much longer...they still would eventually die...which means morning for those they leave behind. The children would still grow up and grow old too and eventually die...that was what I was trying to say in some of my posts...it seems its the same OLD thing...living in dying bodies...doing the same things...even if the wicked unbelievers are gone and life would be better...its still living in corruptible dying bodies...its like getting half the promise fulfilled ..a taste of things but not the whole thing. And I just don't see the point in it at all...what the reason for it?

God bless

third hero
Dec 3rd 2008, 06:41 AM
Maybe I can try again, moonglow.

According to many of the Premillennial POV, the earth, this earth, is not destroyed by fire when the Lord returns. We believe that when the Lord returns, He will slay the armies of the world, (Revelation 19:11-20) and while this is happening, the earth is hit with a catastrophic earthquake that levels all of the mountains of the world, [except Babylon (16:16-20) and Jerusalem (zechariah 14:11-12)] as well as sinking every island in the world. This earthquake will destroy all of the cities of the world except 2. One was Babylon, and the other is Jerusalem.

Although this world is altered by means of the earthquake, but the world itself is not destroyed. IN Zechariah 14:18, the world continues to have people on it, and the Lord will rule over them. He will rule over them from Jerusalem. This is not the New Earth that is written about in Revelation 21. The "NEW EARTH" does not come into being until after the GWT judgment in Revelation 20:11-15.

Therefore, the repopulation of the earth that some, including me, are talking about, is the repopulation of the leveled earth from the moment of the Lord's return until the point of the Earth's final destruction in Revelation 20:11.

If we use this preface, the whole subject cam begin to make sense. (at least I hope anyway).

wpm
Dec 3rd 2008, 07:23 AM
Maybe I can try again, moonglow.

According to many of the Premillennial POV, the earth, this earth, is not destroyed by fire when the Lord returns. We believe that when the Lord returns, He will slay the armies of the world, (Revelation 19:11-20) and while this is happening, the earth is hit with a catastrophic earthquake that levels all of the mountains of the world, [except Babylon (16:16-20) and Jerusalem (zechariah 14:11-12)] as well as sinking every island in the world. This earthquake will destroy all of the cities of the world except 2. One was Babylon, and the other is Jerusalem.

Although this world is altered by means of the earthquake, but the world itself is not destroyed. IN Zechariah 14:18, the world continues to have people on it, and the Lord will rule over them. He will rule over them from Jerusalem. This is not the New Earth that is written about in Revelation 21. The "NEW EARTH" does not come into being until after the GWT judgment in Revelation 20:11-15.

Therefore, the repopulation of the earth that some, including me, are talking about, is the repopulation of the leveled earth from the moment of the Lord's return until the point of the Earth's final destruction in Revelation 20:11.

If we use this preface, the whole subject cam begin to make sense. (at least I hope anyway).

Jesus said in Luke 17,“the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all” (v27).

Jesus continues,“the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all” (v29).

The Lord concludes,“Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed” (v 30).

Paul says, “the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day” (II Thessalonians 1:7-10).

Peter said in 2 Peter 3:10-11, “the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved.”

The writer of the Hebrews says in Heb 10:27, “a certain fearful looking forof judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.”

John says, “heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns …out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, King of kings, and Lord of lords” (Revelation 19:11-16).

Verses 17-18, saying,“I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven,Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great. And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army. And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. The loipoy (or) remaining ones (or) those left behind were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.”

third hero
Dec 3rd 2008, 08:12 AM
Moonglow, if you want to challenge what I have written, please feel free, My only desire here is to show you the logic of some who talk of the repopulating of the earth, nothing more.

moonglow
Dec 3rd 2008, 09:21 PM
Maybe I can try again, moonglow.

According to many of the Premillennial POV, the earth, this earth, is not destroyed by fire when the Lord returns. We believe that when the Lord returns, He will slay the armies of the world, (Revelation 19:11-20) and while this is happening, the earth is hit with a catastrophic earthquake that levels all of the mountains of the world, [except Babylon (16:16-20) and Jerusalem (zechariah 14:11-12)] as well as sinking every island in the world. This earthquake will destroy all of the cities of the world except 2. One was Babylon, and the other is Jerusalem.

Although this world is altered by means of the earthquake, but the world itself is not destroyed. IN Zechariah 14:18, the world continues to have people on it, and the Lord will rule over them. He will rule over them from Jerusalem. This is not the New Earth that is written about in Revelation 21. The "NEW EARTH" does not come into being until after the GWT judgment in Revelation 20:11-15.

Therefore, the repopulation of the earth that some, including me, are talking about, is the repopulation of the leveled earth from the moment of the Lord's return until the point of the Earth's final destruction in Revelation 20:11.

If we use this preface, the whole subject cam begin to make sense. (at least I hope anyway).

Oh..I see! Well that helps then in understanding this a little better...see if my memory serves me...I thought people were talking about re population of the New Earth...just mentioning it in threads on other topics and since that wasn't the topic they didn't go into any detail on it and I didn't ask because I didn't want to derail the thread.

Ok then what happens on the New Earth from your point of view...


third hero Moonglow, if you want to challenge what I have written, please feel free, My only desire here is to show you the logic of some who talk of the repopulating of the earth, nothing more.

Well I might if I had some real grasp on this...:lol: But I am still pretty confused and just don't understand enough to say too much...

The point of my OP wasn't to challenge this idea...but to simply try to learn about it and understand so that when I did see it mentioned I would know what people were talking about. As I said I truly have never heard of this before. So I mostly just wanted to ask questions.

Of which here is one....ok the earth is reshaped, the Lord rules over the people...do the people still die...grow old and die? Thanks.

God bless

Dragonfighter1
Dec 3rd 2008, 09:24 PM
SHe just wants to know how many more children she can have...

http://iconhell.com/i/iconhell_surrealthoughtz_mwahahaa.gif
mwahahaa mwahahaa mwahahaa mwahahaa

Dragonfighter1
Dec 3rd 2008, 09:30 PM
ALong that line...
anyone know if we do have kids in the new earth?
Which wife we have? The first one that died or divorced us (if saved) or the last one we were married to, or do we have to fiund new ones. (I'm scared)!!!
these are not silly questions, yet I don't think there is an answer....

DurbanDude
Dec 3rd 2008, 09:58 PM
ALong that line...
anyone know if we do have kids in the new earth?
Which wife we have? The first one that died or divorced us (if saved) or the last one we were married to, or do we have to fiund new ones. (I'm scared)!!!
these are not silly questions, yet I don't think there is an answer....

The following applies to us Christians both in the millenium and in the New Earth:

Matt 22:25 Now there were with us seven brethren: and the first, when he had married a wife, deceased, and, having no issue, left his wife unto his brother:
22:26 Likewise the second also, and the third, unto the seventh.
22:27 And last of all the woman died also.
22:28 Therefore in the resurrection whose wife shall she be of the seven? for they all had her.
22:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.
22:30 For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.

I believe no marriage and no kids for us Christians because we will be resurrected.

Raybob
Dec 3rd 2008, 10:14 PM
The following applies to us Christians both in the millenium and in the New Earth:

Matt 22:25 Now there were with us seven brethren: and the first, when he had married a wife, deceased, and, having no issue, left his wife unto his brother:
22:26 Likewise the second also, and the third, unto the seventh.
22:27 And last of all the woman died also.
22:28 Therefore in the resurrection whose wife shall she be of the seven? for they all had her.
22:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.
22:30 For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.

I believe no marriage and no kids for us Christians because we will be resurrected.

I'm not sure I understand. I thought the future millennium was supposed to have mortal men that survived the second coming. I guess I was wrong about that?:dunno:

Raybob

John146
Dec 3rd 2008, 10:37 PM
The following applies to us Christians both in the millenium and in the New Earth:

Matt 22:25 Now there were with us seven brethren: and the first, when he had married a wife, deceased, and, having no issue, left his wife unto his brother:
22:26 Likewise the second also, and the third, unto the seventh.
22:27 And last of all the woman died also.
22:28 Therefore in the resurrection whose wife shall she be of the seven? for they all had her.
22:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.
22:30 For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.

I believe no marriage and no kids for us Christians because we will be resurrected.Do you believe that those who become Christians during the millennium will marry? :rolleyes:

What about the Christians who die during the supposed future millennium? When are they resurrected and where is the scripture that speaks about their resurrection?

brakelite
Dec 4th 2008, 12:19 AM
Once the second coming has taken place and all those who have accepted Christ are now in heaven, the earth is empty and void as it was before creation. The devil and his demons are left here to contmplate their guilt with no-one to tempt. The wicked are all dead as they were all killed by the glory of Christ's return. There are no survivors of the second coming. It will be difficult enough for us to bear the presence of God for the first time, the wicked will rather be under an avalanche than face Him. Daniel fell on his face as though dead, so did Isaiah, Paul, and the three disciples on the mount of transfiguration when faced with the glory of God or even just an angel. When Jesus comes He comes with His own glory plus all the angels and God the Father as well. No-one will survive that.
That is why the dead in Christ shall rise first and given glorified bodies and become immortal and then those redeemed who are alive at the time will be changed.
But the wicked? Dead. Until their resurrection at the end of the 1000 years. Then, and only then, the New Jerusalem comes down out of heaven and the new earth and new heaven are made.
No second chances in the millenium. No marriage or new births. No more death for the righteous. Whoever of the redeemed from the history of mankind make up the great number of people on the sea of glass, that is the number of those who will populate the new earth.

DurbanDude
Dec 4th 2008, 06:54 AM
I'm not sure I understand. I thought the future millennium was supposed to have mortal men that survived the second coming. I guess I was wrong about that?:dunno:

Raybob

The future millenium starts with the second coming and the resurrection of the saints. (Rev 20:4 is in the context of the beast and the resurrection that occurs then)

We, the saints, dwell in the "camp of the saints" in the "beloved city" (Rev 20:9) during the millenium, and rule and reign with Christ.

The mortals all attack us at the end of the 1000 years, and then the New Earth will be established.

DurbanDude
Dec 4th 2008, 07:15 AM
Do you believe that those who become Christians during the millennium will marry? :rolleyes:

What about the Christians who die during the supposed future millennium? When are they resurrected and where is the scripture that speaks about their resurrection?

john146, it often surprises me that you have learnt so little about the various pre-mill views over the years and yet debate so much against it.

The normal pre-trib view is that Christians will somehow survive the tribulation without being resurrected. As a post-trib my own belief is that ALL Christians will be resurrected and live and reign with Christ right from the second coming, which matches your belief. Christians cannot die because they have their resurrection bodies.

The difference between us is that I believe some of the nations survive the second coming only to delay their destiny for 1000 years. During the 1000 years the saints will be in "the camp of the saints" in the "beloved city" and will be ruling and reigning with Christ.

I don't believe anyone can become Christians during the millenium, I believe they are "reserved for judgment". Often you have shown me verses that show that at the second coming the one group is resurrected and the other group has eternal destruction as their destiny and you think this is challenging my belief, but we both believe very similarly. I believe in delayed judgement for those that survive the second coming, but it will come on them all anyway. How can you have faith when God is living right here on earth, so therefore I don't believe anyone can get saved, they will live obediently but their hearts will be exposed when Satan is released at the end of the millenium..

Raybob
Dec 4th 2008, 04:53 PM
The future millenium starts with the second coming and the resurrection of the saints. (Rev 20:4 is in the context of the beast and the resurrection that occurs then)

We, the saints, dwell in the "camp of the saints" in the "beloved city" (Rev 20:9) during the millenium, and rule and reign with Christ.

The mortals all attack us at the end of the 1000 years, and then the New Earth will be established.

So the future millenium period has both mortal people that die and have babies along with resurrected people that never die? In the same earth? Is that what you are saying? Is there anywhere in the bible that I could find any reference to such a situation?

Raybob

John146
Dec 4th 2008, 05:01 PM
john146, it often surprises me that you have learnt so little about the various pre-mill views over the years and yet debate so much against it.I know exactly what the various views believe. I ask questions sometimes to see if you really understand what you believe or if you believe differently than the typical view and not because I don't know what the typical premil or pre-trib answers would be.


The normal pre-trib view is that Christians will somehow survive the tribulation without being resurrected. As a post-trib my own belief is that ALL Christians will be resurrected and live and reign with Christ right from the second coming, which matches your belief. Christians cannot die because they have their resurrection bodies.

The difference between us is that I believe some of the nations survive the second coming only to delay their destiny for 1000 years. During the 1000 years the saints will be in "the camp of the saints" in the "beloved city" and will be ruling and reigning with Christ.

I don't believe anyone can become Christians during the millenium, I believe they are "reserved for judgment".That is certainly not the typical premil belief. What would be the point of this supposed future millennium if no one can become a Christian during that time?


Often you have shown me verses that show that at the second coming the one group is resurrected and the other group has eternal destruction as their destiny and you think this is challenging my belief, but we both believe very similarly. I believe in delayed judgement for those that survive the second coming, but it will come on them all anyway. How can you have faith when God is living right here on earth, so therefore I don't believe anyone can get saved, they will live obediently but their hearts will be exposed when Satan is released at the end of the millenium..I'm sorry, but I find this view mind boggling and it makes the supposed future millennium seem to not have any purpose.

DurbanDude
Dec 4th 2008, 05:05 PM
So the future millenium period has both mortal people that die and have babies along with resurrected people that never die? In the same earth? Is that what you are saying? Is there anywhere in the bible that I could find any reference to such a situation?

Raybob

Yes, the bible is consistent about the resurrection at the second coming. All believers are resurrected to be with the Lord forever, hopefully we can agree on this without the need for debate, there are many verses. Then there are all those verses that refer to surviving nations, and mortals , when the Messiah comes to earth to reign. I have listed these time and again. eg Zech 14, Isaiah 2, Joel, Ezekiel 38/39, Rev 19:15 and some others.

So we have resurrected saints who reign with Christ , and surviving mortals who are ruled over with a rod of iron during the same period of Messianic rule starting when the Messiah comes to Zion to destroy the enemies of Israel and establish His eternal reign.

moonglow
Dec 4th 2008, 06:07 PM
Yes, the bible is consistent about the resurrection at the second coming. All believers are resurrected to be with the Lord forever, hopefully we can agree on this without the need for debate, there are many verses. Then there are all those verses that refer to surviving nations, and mortals , when the Messiah comes to earth to reign. I have listed these time and again. eg Zech 14, Isaiah 2, Joel, Ezekiel 38/39, Rev 19:15 and some others.

So we have resurrected saints who reign with Christ , and surviving mortals who are ruled over with a rod of iron during the same period of Messianic rule starting when the Messiah comes to Zion to destroy the enemies of Israel and establish His eternal reign.

You know what this all sounds like? What the Jews were expecting the Messiah to do when He came the first time! To overthrown their enemies and rule over them....they expected it in the literal sense...and didn't 'know' Jesus when He finally came because His kingdom wasn't ever meant to be an earthly kingdom to start with...

They didn't get what they expected and are still waiting on their Messiah to save them from their enemies and establish an earthly kingdom. I don't think those scriptures were ever meant to be taken literally...these are the same ones they looked at when Jesus walked the earth and they killed Him when He didn't live up to their expections. When it didn't happen then...why would we think it will happen in the future the same way the Jews expect?

This is why it seems like this view goes backwards instead of forward..it goes back to looking for the literal fulfillment overlooking the spiritual fulfillment...its almost like reliving history and I honestly see no reason for that. Why would God have us redo the history in the OT...

God bless

DurbanDude
Dec 4th 2008, 06:39 PM
You know what this all sounds like? What the Jews were expecting the Messiah to do when He came the first time! To overthrown their enemies and rule over them....they expected it in the literal sense...and didn't 'know' Jesus when He finally came because His kingdom wasn't ever meant to be an earthly kingdom to start with...

They didn't get what they expected and are still waiting on their Messiah to save them from their enemies and establish an earthly kingdom. I don't think those scriptures were ever meant to be taken literally...these are the same ones they looked at when Jesus walked the earth and they killed Him when He didn't live up to their expections. When it didn't happen then...why would we think it will happen in the future the same way the Jews expect?

This is why it seems like this view goes backwards instead of forward..it goes back to looking for the literal fulfillment overlooking the spiritual fulfillment...its almost like reliving history and I honestly see no reason for that. Why would God have us redo the history in the OT...

God bless

This is exactly what I believe , the Messiah is still going to come exactly the way the Jews were expecting Him to come the first time. The Messiah literally fulfilled those verses referring to Him being born in Bethlehem, being called a Nazarene, starting His ministry in year 483 of Daniel's 70 sevens, and many other fulfilments. In the same way I believe the rest of the prophecies concerning the Messiah will be literally fulfilled. The NT prophecies concerning the literal second coming of the Messiah fit the OT prophecies about the Messiah restoring Israel so well that I see no reason to see any of those verses (like Zechariah 8 Zech 14, Isaiah 2, Joel 2/3, Ezekiel 38/39, Rev 19) as spiritually rather than literally fulfilled.

DurbanDude
Dec 4th 2008, 07:01 PM
Come on. You have to be kidding me. I know exactly what the various views believe. I ask questions sometimes to see if you really understand what you believe or if you believe differently than the typical view and not because I don't know what the typical premil or pre-trib answers would be.

Wow. That is an astounding belief you have there. That is certainly not the typical premil belief. What in the world would be the point of this supposed future millennium if no one can become a Christian during that time?

I'm sorry, but I find this view mind boggling and it makes the supposed future millennium seem even more pointless than the typical premil view makes it seem.

I didn't realise this view was so new. It's simply what I believe the bible to be saying.

Raybob
Dec 4th 2008, 08:02 PM
...I don't believe anyone can become Christians during the millenium, I believe they are "reserved for judgment". Often you have shown me verses that show that at the second coming the one group is resurrected and the other group has eternal destruction as their destiny and you think this is challenging my belief, but we both believe very similarly. I believe in delayed judgement for those that survive the second coming, but it will come on them all anyway. How can you have faith when God is living right here on earth, so therefore I don't believe anyone can get saved, they will live obediently but their hearts will be exposed when Satan is released at the end of the millenium..

So you believe that Satan will be essentially powerless during this future millennium period, yet heathens will be living for 1000 years while Satan is powerless? How can these non-believers be non-believers with all these resurrected Christians running around on the same earth and Satan, the great deceiver, can no longer deceive?:help:

Raybob

DurbanDude
Dec 4th 2008, 08:28 PM
So you believe that Satan will be essentially powerless during this future millennium period, yet heathens will be living for 1000 years while Satan is powerless? How can these non-believers be non-believers with all these resurrected Christians running around on the same earth and Satan, the great deceiver, can no longer deceive?:help:

Raybob

It is through faith that we are saved. The bible describes faith as "being sure of what you hope for and being certain of what you do not see". How can the millenium mortals have faith , they will see God's works daily on this earth, Jesus himself will be living on this earth in the "beloved city" of Rev 20. The age for salvation is past when Jesus comes on the clouds and separates the righteous from the rest. They will certainly believe but "even the demons believe and tremble".

moonglow
Dec 4th 2008, 09:36 PM
This is exactly what I believe , the Messiah is still going to come exactly the way the Jews were expecting Him to come the first time. The Messiah literally fulfilled those verses referring to Him being born in Bethlehem, being called a Nazarene, starting His ministry in year 483 of Daniel's 70 sevens, and many other fulfilments. In the same way I believe the rest of the prophecies concerning the Messiah will be literally fulfilled. The NT prophecies concerning the literal second coming of the Messiah fit the OT prophecies about the Messiah restoring Israel so well that I see no reason to see any of those verses (like Zechariah 8 Zech 14, Isaiah 2, Joel 2/3, Ezekiel 38/39, Rev 19) as spiritually rather than literally fulfilled.

Ok...so why do you think the Jews were in so much trouble for rejecting Jesus because He didn't fulfill their literal expectations?

(I am just trying to understand your thinking here is all)

God bless

John146
Dec 4th 2008, 09:37 PM
It is through faith that we are saved. The bible describes faith as "being sure of what you hope for and being certain of what you do not see". How can the millenium mortals have faith , they will see God's works daily on this earth, Jesus himself will be living on this earth in the "beloved city" of Rev 20. The age for salvation is past when Jesus comes on the clouds and separates the righteous from the rest. They will certainly believe but "even the demons believe and tremble".So, I guess when Jesus walked the earth, no one was saved during that time, right? At least, not according to your logic.

John146
Dec 4th 2008, 09:40 PM
I didn't realise this view was so new. It's simply what I believe the bible to be saying.I know it's what you believe, but it is a unique view. I don't believe it was warranted for you to say to me "it often surprises me that you have learnt so little about the various pre-mill views over the years". I think I have clearly shown repeatedly that I have a clear understanding of the premil views. But your particular view that no one is saved during the supposed future millennium is one that I don't recall seeing before.

DurbanDude
Dec 4th 2008, 09:46 PM
Ok...so why do you think the Jews were in so much trouble for rejecting Jesus because He didn't fulfill their literal expectations?

(I am just trying to understand your thinking here is all)

God bless

They didn't understand the times. Their Messiah was right there and they rejected Him. This involves faith and spiritual discernment , those whose hearts were true recognised Him. Those who had an inflexible approach to interpreting scripture would not have recognised that God was there amongst them. Only in the most desperate of situations according to Joel will many Jews begin to recognise their Messiah just before the second coming, and Jesus will respond, just read Romans 11 to understand this current period.

DurbanDude
Dec 4th 2008, 09:49 PM
So, I guess when Jesus walked the earth, no one was saved during that time, right? At least, not according to your logic.

That's stretching my logic a bit too far.

DurbanDude
Dec 4th 2008, 09:54 PM
I know it's what you believe, but it is a unique view. I don't believe it was warranted for you to say to me "it often surprises me that you have learnt so little about the various pre-mill views over the years". I think I have clearly shown repeatedly that I have a clear understanding of the premil views. But your particular view that no one is saved during the supposed future millennium is one that I don't recall seeing before.

Sorry about that. I should have rather said that it has recently surprised me that you have sometimes misunderstood me. I now know why.

John146
Dec 4th 2008, 09:57 PM
That's stretching my logic a bit too far.Is it? I don't really think so. Jesus did miracles for all to see and yet many who saw them still didn't believe in Him. How is that much different than what you are saying about the supposed millennium?

Raybob
Dec 4th 2008, 09:57 PM
It is through faith that we are saved. The bible describes faith as "being sure of what you hope for and being certain of what you do not see". How can the millenium mortals have faith , they will see God's works daily on this earth, Jesus himself will be living on this earth in the "beloved city" of Rev 20. The age for salvation is past when Jesus comes on the clouds and separates the righteous from the rest. They will certainly believe but "even the demons believe and tremble".

Satan will be powerless but all those mortals will die on judgment day? :hmm:

Raybob

DurbanDude
Dec 4th 2008, 10:22 PM
Satan will be powerless but all those mortals will die on judgment day? :hmm:

Raybob

Satan is sealed in the bottomless pit. Satan is then released and deceives all the nations/mortals. These mortals will die on judgment day.

20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

DurbanDude
Dec 4th 2008, 10:29 PM
Is it? I don't really think so. Jesus did miracles for all to see and yet many who saw them still didn't believe in Him. How is that much different than what you are saying about the supposed millennium?

It still took a lot of faith for those Jews to believe that this miracle worker was the Messiah. They were expecting a powerful supernatural warrior that would dramatically defeat all their enemies. The gap period between the two comings was not always understood before Jesus came. Its easier for us in retrospect to understand that the references to the Messiah were referring to two separate comings.

brakelite
Dec 5th 2008, 04:16 AM
No wonder that there is so much confusion when thinking about the coming millenium. The righteous and wicked lco-existing for 1000 years? For what purpose? God, if He is anything at all, is sensible to say the least. And logical. What is sensible and logical about the having to put up with and suffer through another 1000 years of sin, wickedness and hatred for which there is no cure and no repentance?
Before Jesus comes the second time the opportunity for repentance passes indeed. Rev 22:11,12 makes that clear. But when Jesus comes He is putting an end to this wicked world forever. He is coming to destroy it, not reform it. Again I repeat, no-one but the saved will survive the second coming.
And the righteous? They will not be upon the earth either. 1 Thess 416,17 makes it clear that we meet the Lord in the air. Jesus at this time does not touch the earth. We reign with Christ yes, but in heaven.We live in the great New Jerusalem yes, but that is in heaven.
That city comes to earth at the close of the 1000 years. Which means in fact that there are 3 advents of Jesus. It is from that time that Zech 14 is fulfilled.
Thus the only rebellious planet in the universe becomes it's capital. What abundant grace God displays before all the unfallen worlds!

DurbanDude
Dec 5th 2008, 06:04 AM
No wonder that there is so much confusion when thinking about the coming millenium. The righteous and wicked lco-existing for 1000 years? For what purpose? God, if He is anything at all, is sensible to say the least. And logical. What is sensible and logical about the having to put up with and suffer through another 1000 years of sin, wickedness and hatred for which there is no cure and no repentance?
Before Jesus comes the second time the opportunity for repentance passes indeed. Rev 22:11,12 makes that clear. But when Jesus comes He is putting an end to this wicked world forever. He is coming to destroy it, not reform it. Again I repeat, no-one but the saved will survive the second coming.
And the righteous? They will not be upon the earth either. 1 Thess 416,17 makes it clear that we meet the Lord in the air. Jesus at this time does not touch the earth. We reign with Christ yes, but in heaven.We live in the great New Jerusalem yes, but that is in heaven.
That city comes to earth at the close of the 1000 years. Which means in fact that there are 3 advents of Jesus. It is from that time that Zech 14 is fulfilled.
Thus the only rebellious planet in the universe becomes it's capital. What abundant grace God displays before all the unfallen worlds!

Ahhh. It appears that the main argument against my PoV at the moment is that God would be illogical if I'm right. Well God's ways are not our ways. I hope you aren't claiming to understand all the ways of God already, I know you aren't. I certainly don't understand many of God's ways.

Of course they co-exist. Rev 20 speaks of the blessed saints reigning with Christ; and the "camp of the saints". Who do you think lives in the camp of the saints in the blessed city during the time when the unrighteous attack the blessed city?

You refer to Zechariah 14, yet this chapter is written in literal , not figurative, language and describes the heathen nations surviving the Messiah's coming to Jerusalem and these heathens being ruled over with discipline.

14:18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

wpm
Dec 5th 2008, 06:30 AM
Yes, the bible is consistent about the resurrection at the second coming. All believers are resurrected to be with the Lord forever, hopefully we can agree on this without the need for debate, there are many verses. Then there are all those verses that refer to surviving nations, and mortals , when the Messiah comes to earth to reign. I have listed these time and again. eg Zech 14, Isaiah 2, Joel, Ezekiel 38/39, Rev 19:15 and some others.

So we have resurrected saints who reign with Christ , and surviving mortals who are ruled over with a rod of iron during the same period of Messianic rule starting when the Messiah comes to Zion to destroy the enemies of Israel and establish His eternal reign.

I have asked you when Ezekiel 40-48 relate to. I believe they were unfulfilled conditional promises that relate to the OT era. How about you?

DurbanDude
Dec 5th 2008, 10:01 AM
I have asked you when Ezekiel 40-48 relate to. I believe they were unfulfilled conditional promises that relate to the OT era. How about you?


I haven't got the time to study this at the moment, so can't say for now. Don't want to give you a flippant answer.