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creedfan
Dec 1st 2008, 04:46 AM
I studied with the Jehovah's Witnesses at one time, I was never one myself. They have a belief that only 144,000 people go to Heaven, and the rest stay on paradise earth. That group of the 144,000 is God's government. I don't personally believe that, and my raeson is because Jesus clearly states "Store up for your treasures in Heaven" If I were to store up for my treasures in Heaven, then surely that must me I will be there to enjoy them. Am I right on this or am I missing the mark somewhere in there?

Also, my other question is, who exactly is the 144,000?

Revinius
Dec 1st 2008, 01:40 PM
I studied with the Jehovah's Witnesses at one time, I was never one myself. They have a belief that only 144,000 people go to Heaven, and the rest stay on paradise earth. That group of the 144,000 is God's government. I don't personally believe that, and my raeson is because Jesus clearly states "Store up for your treasures in Heaven" If I were to store up for my treasures in Heaven, then surely that must me I will be there to enjoy them. Am I right on this or am I missing the mark somewhere in there?

Also, my other question is, who exactly is the 144,000?


I have always thought it was 144,000 churches.

mcgyver
Dec 1st 2008, 03:24 PM
Revelation 7:2-8 tells us who the 144,000 are:

2 Then I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God. And he cried with a loud voice to the four angels to whom it was granted to harm the earth and the sea, 3 saying, “Do not harm the earth, the sea, or the trees till we have sealed the servants of our God on their foreheads.” 4 And I heard the number of those who were sealed. One hundred and forty-four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel were sealed:
5 of the tribe of Judah twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Reuben twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Gad twelve thousand were sealed;
6 of the tribe of Asher twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Naphtali twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Manasseh twelve thousand were sealed;
7 of the tribe of Simeon twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Levi twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Issachar twelve thousand were sealed;
8 of the tribe of Zebulun twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Joseph twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Benjamin twelve thousand were sealed.

The 144,000 are (Messianic) Jews (believers in Christ) who are "sealed" by God as His servants during the period of tribulation when God is pouring out His wrath upon the earth...Many believe that these are (for lack of a better term) "Tribulation Evangelists" who carry the Gospel even as God is getting people's attention through supernatural means, although this is subject to debate in some circles.

Interestingly, the Bible records that there are 144,000 who start...and a 144, 000 that are at the end...in other words, none are lost during this time...bearing witness of God's supernatural protection of these people.

Revinius
Dec 1st 2008, 04:44 PM
That makes little sense as under the new covenant Gods chosen are also gentiles.

Amos_with_goats
Dec 1st 2008, 06:46 PM
I think McGiver pretty well answered the OP. So I guess I would just say '+1" to his post. :)


Interestingly, the Bible records that there are 144,000 who start...and a 144, 000 that are at the end...in other words, none are lost during this time...bearing witness of God's supernatural protection of these people.

Agreed. I have heard the argument for a pre-trib 'rapture' (not fond of the extra-scriptural term) that says those martyred out of the tribulation (rev 6:9) were of the 144,000.....

mcgyver
Dec 1st 2008, 07:08 PM
That makes little sense as under the new covenant Gods chosen are also gentiles.

Depending on one's eschatology, I can see how that could be confusing.:)

Just take a look at end times chat...:lol:

Never the less, the scripture records that the 144,000 are of the twelve tribes of Israel...and really, in the context of the passage (being incredibly specific) there really isn't a way that I can see to take as an analogy that which is written.

JMO

RJ Mac
Dec 1st 2008, 07:53 PM
McGyver - do people get board (bored) alot in the Plywood State?

It does depend on your eschatology. For me the book is very symbolical as it
states in the Rev.1:1 - communicated or signified..

In the list of 12 Tribes Levi and Joseph are not recognized as tribes and two
are missing, Dan and Ephraim who was a very powerful tribe, so why the error?
Maybe to show us, don't take it literally.

Rev.6:11 - after asking God to stop the persecution, God says wait until the number
is complete of those who will die in this persecution and that number was 144,000
not literally but to show God knows those who are His.

When they had died, they came back with Christ Rev.14:1-5 and put a stop
to the Roman persecution. Again has to be symbolic because they are all
male virgins, Rev.14:4;

But then if you see this as yet to be; then of course we will disagree.

RJ

ƒσяєяυииєя
Dec 1st 2008, 08:19 PM
Hello Creed,

It is written:

-Then I looked, and there before me was the Lamb, standing on Mount Zion, and with him 144,000 who had his name and his Father's name written on their foreheads. Rev 14:1

So they have God`s character, let`s keep reading to know more characteristics about them:

And I heard a sound from heaven like the roar of rushing waters and like a loud peal of thunder. The sound I heard was like that of harpists playing their harps.

And they sang a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders. No one could learn the song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth.

These are those who did not defile themselves with women, for they kept themselves pure. Rev 14:2-4.

I think 144,000 is not a literal number of people, but a symbolic number [but I do not have any argument about it], and about the last part defiled with women comes to be they are not defiled with false teachings, of fallen churches, who rejected the present truth.

They follow the Lamb wherever he goes. They were purchased from among men and offered as firstfruits to God and the Lamb. No lie was found in their mouths; they are blameless. Rev 14:4b,5.

They follow the Lamb even with their prayers when Jesus will have left the most holy place in the sactuary, then they will address their prayers to Him coming in the clouds [is a diferent kind of prayer to the one uttered when Jesus is in the most Holy place. It can be read in the next verses in Revelation chapter 14:15:

Then another angel came out of the temple and called in a loud voice to him who was sitting on the cloud, "Take your sickle and reap, because the time to reap has come, for the harvest of the earth is ripe."


Furthermore they are alive in the second coming of Jesus, and they rejected the mark of the beast

"This calls for patient endurance on the part of the saints who obey God's commandments and remain faithful to Jesus." Rev 14:12

Ezer Kenegdo
Dec 1st 2008, 08:58 PM
In the list of 12 Tribes Levi and Joseph are not recognized as tribes and two
are missing, Dan and Ephraim who was a very powerful tribe, so why the error?
Maybe to show us, don't take it literally.

Joseph's inheritance was divided between his two sons, Ephraim and Manasseh. So Joseph was removed from the 12 tribes and then there were 13. When God brought the Israelites into the promised land He did not give Levi any land - they were the priestly tribe. Now we are back down to 12 again.

In Revelation 7 we find Ephraim and Dan left out. As for the tribe of Dan - Ahab married Jezebel and worshiped Baal.

Amo 8:14 They that swear by the sin of Samaria, and say, Thy god, O Dan, liveth; and, The manner of Beer-sheba liveth; even they shall fall, and never rise up again. And concerning Ephraim:

Hos 4:17 Ephraim is joined to idols: let him alone. With Joseph and Levi added back in, the number is now back to 12, the number of Jewish government. God could not be more plain that these are literally 144,000 men. - He even lists 12,000 from each tribe. He knows exactly which tribe every single Jew who ever lived belongs to. :)



That makes little sense as under the new covenant Gods chosen are also gentiles.
The time of the gentiles will be fulfilled. God's heart turns back to the Jews, who as a nation has been blinded. The 144,000 Jewish male virgins are preaching the gospel of the kingdom - the Kingdom that the disciples thought was happening at the time Jesus first came - to be their earthly King. The time for that is coming, and that is the gospel that these Jews will be preaching.

JollyRoger1970
Dec 2nd 2008, 01:54 AM
I studied with the Jehovah's Witnesses at one time, I was never one myself. They have a belief that only 144,000 people go to Heaven, and the rest stay on paradise earth. That group of the 144,000 is God's government. I don't personally believe that, and my raeson is because Jesus clearly states "Store up for your treasures in Heaven" If I were to store up for my treasures in Heaven, then surely that must me I will be there to enjoy them. Am I right on this or am I missing the mark somewhere in there?

Also, my other question is, who exactly is the 144,000?


According to the Watchtower Witnesses, the “kingdom” or “the church” will consist ultimately of only 144,000 people who will be in heaven. Supposedly, this “ruling body” will exercise authority over the rest of those receiving eternal life, who will live upon God’s glorified earth.



The Witnesses appeal to Revelation 7:4ff and 14:1ff as proof for this unorthodox concept. The theory is false for many reasons.


The kingdom/church is frequently represented in the New Testament as existing on earth (cf. Revelation 1:4,6,9).
After the return of Christ, there will be no earth, for it will have been utterly destroyed at the Judgment (Matthew 25:46; 2 Peter 3:10; Revelation 21:1).
There is but “one hope” (Ephesians 4:4) for the faithful, and it is heaven (1 Peter 1:3,4). Watchtower doctrine argues for two hopes—heaven or earth.
The numeral “thousand” is used more than twenty times in the book of Revelation and not once is it employed literally.

The 144,000, mentioned in Revelation 7 and 14, is a symbolic number as evidenced by the following facts.


If it is literal in chapter 7, only Jews would be in heaven (see 7:4ff). The fact that Dan is omitted, Joseph is classified as a “tribe,” and Levi is included demonstrates that the description is figurative. Moreover, in addition to the 144,000, there was a “great multitude” there (7:9).
If the numeral is literal in chapter 14, only unmarried men will be in heaven, for the group consisted of virgins who had not been defiled with women (14:4). Note also that they follow the “Lamb” wherever He goes. Is that a literal or figurative lamb?

If Revelation 7:4 is literal, only Jews will be in Heaven. If Revelation 14:1 is literal only unmarried men will be in Heaven. Both statements are obviously false.

bennie
Dec 2nd 2008, 02:19 AM
I studied with the Jehovah's Witnesses at one time, I was never one myself. They have a belief that only 144,000 people go to Heaven, and the rest stay on paradise earth. That group of the 144,000 is God's government. I don't personally believe that, and my raeson is because Jesus clearly states "Store up for your treasures in Heaven" If I were to store up for my treasures in Heaven, then surely that must me I will be there to enjoy them. Am I right on this or am I missing the mark somewhere in there?

Also, my other question is, who exactly is the 144,000?


hi creedfan

Like alot of people said, it depends on you escotaligy view.
I believe the bible says that the 144000 will be Gods prophets during the end times. The will proclaim a gospel that this world has not heard for 2000 years. I believe the 12 tribes symbolize that they will come from every tribe, language and nation. They will be spiritual Jews. They will be given the little scroll to eat, and proclaim the last messege before Jesus comes for his people.

bennie

Revinius
Dec 2nd 2008, 06:12 PM
Depending on one's eschatology, I can see how that could be confusing.:)

Just take a look at end times chat...:lol:

Never the less, the scripture records that the 144,000 are of the twelve tribes of Israel...and really, in the context of the passage (being incredibly specific) there really isn't a way that I can see to take as an analogy that which is written.

JMO

I find that inconsistent with Pauls theology in Galatians 4 where he defines what being 'chosen' is. But yeah, i understand there are different views, although i would be unloving to not at least attempt to point out an inconsistency if i see it.

Revinius
Dec 2nd 2008, 06:15 PM
The time of the gentiles will be fulfilled. God's heart turns back to the Jews, who as a nation has been blinded. The 144,000 Jewish male virgins are preaching the gospel of the kingdom - the Kingdom that the disciples thought was happening at the time Jesus first came - to be their earthly King. The time for that is coming, and that is the gospel that these Jews will be preaching.

There are no longer Jew or Gentile, salvation was offered up first to them (as per Paul), but other than that i see no biblical reason to presuppose they will somehow be held above Gentiles (given that there is no longer such a distinction).

Ezer Kenegdo
Dec 2nd 2008, 08:42 PM
There are no longer Jew or Gentile, salvation was offered up first to them (as per Paul), but other than that i see no biblical reason to presuppose they will somehow be held above Gentiles (given that there is no longer such a distinction).

Well I don't want to debate, and I do believe that there is no Jew nor Gentile "in Christ", but I do not believe that the Church has replaced Israel. I believe they are blinded for now, but at some point the time of the Gentiles will be fulfilled and God will turn his heart back to the Jews - just as now there are many Gentiles believing, and few Jews, I believe at that time there will be many Jews believing, and few Gentiles, although the gospel at that time will not be the gospel of salvation, but of the Kingdom - the coming Messiah who will rule with a rod of iron. The "gospel of the kingdom" that the 144,000 blood-line Jews will be preaching - just like John the Baptist.

The phrase "new earth" is found 4 times in the bible - twice in the OT and twice in the NT. I believe that when I die I'll go to Heaven to be with the Lord, but that when Christ returns I will return with him and our home will then be with God on Earth forever.


(Isa 65:17) For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

(Isa 66:22) For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.

(2Pe 3:13) Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

(Rev 21:1) And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.


If this post has crossed the line where debating is concerned please delete it. :)

RogerW
Dec 3rd 2008, 12:09 AM
Revelation 7:2-8 tells us who the 144,000 are:

2 Then I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God. And he cried with a loud voice to the four angels to whom it was granted to harm the earth and the sea, 3 saying, “Do not harm the earth, the sea, or the trees till we have sealed the servants of our God on their foreheads.” 4 And I heard the number of those who were sealed. One hundred and forty-four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel were sealed:
5 of the tribe of Judah twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Reuben twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Gad twelve thousand were sealed;
6 of the tribe of Asher twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Naphtali twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Manasseh twelve thousand were sealed;
7 of the tribe of Simeon twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Levi twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Issachar twelve thousand were sealed;
8 of the tribe of Zebulun twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Joseph twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Benjamin twelve thousand were sealed.

The 144,000 are (Messianic) Jews (believers in Christ) who are "sealed" by God as His servants during the period of tribulation when God is pouring out His wrath upon the earth...Many believe that these are (for lack of a better term) "Tribulation Evangelists" who carry the Gospel even as God is getting people's attention through supernatural means, although this is subject to debate in some circles.

Interestingly, the Bible records that there are 144,000 who start...and a 144, 000 that are at the end...in other words, none are lost during this time...bearing witness of God's supernatural protection of these people.

I believe the 144,000 represents those saved from the OT time prior to the cross. The difference in number showing the true significance of the cross. Whether the 144,000 is literal or not is not important, but the fact that after the cross and the gospel going unto all the world, we find a great multitude that no man can number becoming saved.

Here in Rev 7 we see the sealing of the 144,000 prior to Pentecost. We find the same 144,000 in Rev 14 before the Lamb of God. They could not go to heaven until after Christ literally fulfilled His work on the cross. No one could enter into heaven before Christ went there to prepare a place for them. So these 144,000 died in faith, without receiving the promise of a dwelling place built without hands, eternal in heaven (Heb 11). This is why the 144,000 were sealed before Christ' first advent. We find this sealing/marking of these OT saints also in Eze 9.

What is the significance of separating OT believers (144,000) from NT believers (great multitude)? It shows us the importance of Christ and His cross. Before Christ literally became the Lamb slain from before the foundation of the world, very few were saved. Although the Holy Spirit worked in the OT to save the people of God, the fullness of the Holy Spirit, when He came to indwell the people of God, guiding and teaching them, did not come until Christ ascended into heaven and sent Him to indwell His people. We get the full significance, the fullness of salvation in Christ after Pentecost in realizing that without Christ and His work on the cross very few people would be saved. It's really a shame that so many people miss the significance seen in this 144,000 small remnant before Christ and the great multitude that no man can number after Christ. What a difference the cross of Christ makes to all the peoples of the world.

Many Blessings,
RW

Revinius
Dec 3rd 2008, 04:19 AM
Well I don't want to debate, and I do believe that there is no Jew nor Gentile "in Christ", but I do not believe that the Church has replaced Israel. I believe they are blinded for now, but at some point the time of the Gentiles will be fulfilled and God will turn his heart back to the Jews - just as now there are many Gentiles believing, and few Jews, I believe at that time there will be many Jews believing, and few Gentiles, although the gospel at that time will not be the gospel of salvation, but of the Kingdom - the coming Messiah who will rule with a rod of iron. The "gospel of the kingdom" that the 144,000 blood-line Jews will be preaching - just like John the Baptist.

The phrase "new earth" is found 4 times in the bible - twice in the OT and twice in the NT. I believe that when I die I'll go to Heaven to be with the Lord, but that when Christ returns I will return with him and our home will then be with God on Earth forever.



If this post has crossed the line where debating is concerned please delete it. :)


Ok, well i believe that view is inconsistent for obvious reasons. The repetitive use of 'i believe' as a premise for your conclusions doesnt really help. Thanks for the view though, please take my suggestions on board though. :)

Revinius
Dec 3rd 2008, 04:22 AM
I believe the 144,000 represents those saved from the OT time prior to the cross. The difference in number showing the true significance of the cross. Whether the 144,000 is literal or not is not important, but the fact that after the cross and the gospel going unto all the world, we find a great multitude that no man can number becoming saved.

Here in Rev 7 we see the sealing of the 144,000 prior to Pentecost. We find the same 144,000 in Rev 14 before the Lamb of God. They could not go to heaven until after Christ literally fulfilled His work on the cross. No one could enter into heaven before Christ went there to prepare a place for them. So these 144,000 died in faith, without receiving the promise of a dwelling place built without hands, eternal in heaven (Heb 11). This is why the 144,000 were sealed before Christ' first advent. We find this sealing/marking of these OT saints also in Eze 9.

What is the significance of separating OT believers (144,000) from NT believers (great multitude)? It shows us the importance of Christ and His cross. Before Christ literally became the Lamb slain from before the foundation of the world, very few were saved. Although the Holy Spirit worked in the OT to save the people of God, the fullness of the Holy Spirit, when He came to indwell the people of God, guiding and teaching them, did not come until Christ ascended into heaven and sent Him to indwell His people. We get the full significance, the fullness of salvation in Christ after Pentecost in realizing that without Christ and His work on the cross very few people would be saved. It's really a shame that so many people miss the significance seen in this 144,000 small remnant before Christ and the great multitude that no man can number after Christ. What a difference the cross of Christ makes to all the peoples of the world.

Many Blessings,
RW

Yeah but Abraham was saved by faith, i find it hard to believe, of the tens of millions who lived and died under the law, that only 144,000 would have had faith. It's a good theory, you just really need to think of the scope of the numbers though i think...

mcgyver
Dec 3rd 2008, 05:01 AM
This thread is so on the edge of the New in Christ forum rules...that the decision has been made to move it to End Times Chat.

Therefore, ETC rules are now in effect for this thread.

Tanya~
Dec 3rd 2008, 05:01 AM
I studied with the Jehovah's Witnesses at one time, I was never one myself. They have a belief that only 144,000 people go to Heaven, and the rest stay on paradise earth. That group of the 144,000 is God's government. I don't personally believe that, and my raeson is because Jesus clearly states "Store up for your treasures in Heaven" If I were to store up for my treasures in Heaven, then surely that must me I will be there to enjoy them. Am I right on this or am I missing the mark somewhere in there?

You're right. It sounds like the Holy Spirit has been faithful to keep you from going along with the JWs. Praise God for that!


Also, my other question is, who exactly is the 144,000?

From a plain and straight-forward understanding of Revelation, these are a specific group of people specially chosen from out of the tribes of Israel during the time just before Jesus returns to earth. They are mentioned in Rev 7 and in Rev 14. They are a special group but they are not the only ones in heaven. This is made perfectly clear by this passage from Rev 7 just after naming the 12 tribes:

Rev 7:9-10

After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands, 10 and crying out with a loud voice, saying,"Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!"
NKJV


Obviously, they're in heaven too. :)

Ezer Kenegdo
Dec 3rd 2008, 01:16 PM
Well I don't want to debate, and I do believe that there is no Jew nor Gentile "in Christ", but I do not believe that the Church has replaced Israel. I believe they are blinded for now, but at some point the time of the Gentiles will be fulfilled and God will turn his heart back to the Jews - just as now there are many Gentiles believing, and few Jews, I believe at that time there will be many Jews believing, and few Gentiles, although the gospel at that time will not be the gospel of salvation, but of the Kingdom - the coming Messiah who will rule with a rod of iron. The "gospel of the kingdom" that the 144,000 blood-line Jews will be preaching - just like John the Baptist.Ok, well i believe that view is inconsistent for obvious reasons.

What is inconsistent about it? Does God not keep his word? Is he incapable of saying what he means? When he told Mary that she was going to have a son and that Jesus "shall reign over the house of Jacob forever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end." (Luk 1:33) did he mean something else?

When God said through prophecy in Ezekiel 37:21-25 that he will take Israel out from among the heathen and bring them into their own land and make Israel and Judah be ONE nation again instead of two and they will dwell in the land He gave to Jacob, where their fathers have dwelt, and they shall live there forever, did he lie?

I am sincerely interested in your point of view.


~Rene'~

Revinius
Dec 3rd 2008, 01:30 PM
What is inconsistent about it? Does God not keep his word? Is he incapable of saying what he means? When he told Mary that she was going to have a son and that Jesus "shall reign over the house of Jacob forever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end." (Luk 1:33) did he mean something else?

When God said through prophecy in Ezekiel 37:21-25 that he will take Israel out from among the heathen and bring them into their own land and make Israel and Judah be ONE nation again instead of two and they will dwell in the land He gave to Jacob, where their fathers have dwelt, and they shall live there forever, did he lie?

I am sincerely interested in your point of view.

~Rene'~

Firstly, i gave my reasons in the section you failed to quote, as to why it is inconsistent.

Secondly, please answer for me the question: What is 'Israel'?

Ezer Kenegdo
Dec 3rd 2008, 02:13 PM
Firstly, i gave my reasons in the section you failed to quote, as to why it is inconsistent.

You mean this?


The repetitive use of 'i believe' as a premise for your conclusions doesnt really help.

How does my stating "I believe" before writing what I believe show inconsistency in what I believe?



Secondly, please answer for me the question: What is 'Israel'?
What scripture do we have to prove that it is anything other than the bloodline lineage of Jacob?

~Rene'~

jesuslover1968
Dec 3rd 2008, 02:55 PM
To the OP., Please read the Bible and listen to what GOD tells you. :)
Also remember, no matter what ANYONE tells you...every prophecy that has EVER been fulfilled has been fulfilled literally, not figuratively or allegorically. The number 144,000 is used for a reason. Regardless of who tells you the number isn't important, it obviously is to God. That DOES matter.
The passage says they are from the twelve tribes. There is NO reason to believe ANYTHING else. To pick and choose what we take literally in the Bible is a dangerous thing. Doing this, you can make the Bible agree with whatever YOU want, and that is NOT what God wants. :)
The Bible IS full of allegory, figurative language, AND literal language. BUT, anytime it is figurative or allegorical, the Bible lets you know that it is. The book of Revelation is a wonderful book. God promises blessing to those who read it and do what it says. If we weren't able to understand it, that would be an empty promise, huh? God isn't like that. Try praying for understanding and reading it again and keep doing that until you DO understand. God Bless. :hug:

bennie
Dec 3rd 2008, 03:31 PM
What scripture do we have to prove that it is anything other than the bloodline lineage of Jacob?

~Rene'~[/quote]


hi

James 1

1James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ,
To the twelve tribes scattered among the nations:
Greetings

Here James is writing to fellow believers in Christ. He considered them(Christians) to be of the 12 tribes. He already knew the 12 tribes where redefined. They are spiritual tribes.

bennie

David Taylor
Dec 3rd 2008, 06:27 PM
Also, my other question is, who exactly is the 144,000?


They are only mentioned in two passages in the entire Bible. (11 verses)

Passage #1

Revelation 7:3-8
"Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads. And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel. Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nephthalim were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand."

Passage #2

Revelation 14:1-5
"And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads. And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps: And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth. These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb. And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God. "


That's it.

Study those verses carefully; because there isn't much about the 144K. We know they are Christians, because they are redeemed by the Lamb and follow Him.

My personal opinion, is that they are representative of the saved and faithful from Israel to who first believed; prior to the gospel going to the Gentiles. Notice the flow in chapter 7, first to Israel as pictured in the 144K, then later to the uncountable multitude who follow the Lamb from every tongue, tribe, and nation.

Likewise, in Chapter 14, the 144K are called the firstfruits unto the Lamb; again showing to me, that they represent the faithful of Israel to whom first believed; prior to the mass salvation of the Gentiles afterwards.

But the scriptures themselves, give very little info about them. And they are definately nothing like what the Watchtower misuses and misteaches them to be.

Revinius
Dec 4th 2008, 04:53 AM
You mean this?

How does my stating "I believe" before writing what I believe show inconsistency in what I believe?

Yes, that. A statement of belief is not a reason for something. I was at a kids scripture seminar the other week and a kid in one of the groups said: "There is no God". I wasnt really surprised as this isn't an uncommon statement when one is confronted with the gospel. So i asked him, "What are your reasons for holding this position?" he looked a little stunned, like i had just slapped him in the face with a salty fish. Then, after a twinkle in his eye, he said "because there is no God". I couldnt help but frown and then thoughtfully respond: "Mate, that's not a reason, that is just repeating yourself". The rest of discussion was spent with him sulking and trying to disrupt others as a means of 'revenge'.

Now, my point is not that you are like this kid, that would be insulting so please dont get it that way. But it is that, we as Christians talking with people (and other Christians) cant just present theological positions that have no basis to them other than 'i believe', that is blind and foolhardy faith. What i was trying to point out in saying 'you are being inconsistent' is that you both, affirmed that there is no distinction between Jew or Gentile in Christ, but then you say there is. That in itself presents a juxtaposition that i find confusing. But, the other issue is that you presented quite a complex theological view without linking it to evidence for it which perplex's me, as the above illustration highlights.

From there you draw some sort of eschatological network of transition between 'preaching salvation' and 'preaching kingdom' which i find confusing as it was Jesus who first preached kingdom as the way to salvation. Anyway, moral of the story: please show me/us rather than telling me/us (if that makes sense). We all learn more together when we know the root of theological positions and help each other in love by showing inconsistencies. -----> the ultimate goal is truth so lets get to it.


What scripture do we have to prove that it is anything other than the bloodline lineage of Jacob?

~Rene'~

I could throw half a dozen entire chunks of passage that support a view that blood means nothing to God now (or ever) but i guess i would prefer you answered your's first (under the suitable kids rule of: 'i asked first!') by providing me with evidence that blood IS Israel.

Sirus
Dec 4th 2008, 05:43 AM
What scripture do we have to prove that it is anything other than the bloodline lineage of Jacob?

Rene'


hi

James 1

1James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ,
To the twelve tribes scattered among the nations:
Greetings

Here James is writing to fellow believers in Christ. He considered them(Christians) to be of the 12 tribes. He already knew the 12 tribes where redefined. They are spiritual tribes.

bennieUmm...NO!
They are Jewish believers. Is that some mystery hard to understand? They are from 12 literal physical tribes of Jacob. What scripture says otherwise? On what basis do you say "He already knew the 12 tribes where redefined." ? Text please, not your personal opinion and allegoric presuppositions.

Raybob
Dec 4th 2008, 06:39 AM
...What scripture do we have to prove that it is anything other than the bloodline lineage of Jacob?

~Rene'~

For one thing, Jews are from the tribe of Judah. That is one of the 12 mentioned but the other 11 mentioned are NOT the same as the ones of the 12 tribes listed in the OT. Notice the tribe of Dan is not there. This is clearly a symbolic picture of something other than the original 12 tribes of Israel. Don't forget God divorced Israel.

Jer 3:8 And I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery I had put her away, and given her a bill of divorce; yet her treacherous sister Judah feared not, but went and played the harlot also.

Raybob

Veretax
Dec 4th 2008, 03:05 PM
I seem to recall, and am not going to look up the verses that in Revelation, or perhaps Ezekiel that the temple was to be measured. Then we hear about the 144K who are sealed, and is there not also a verse that says the outer court is given to the gentiles (a great multitude). I've always taken this to believe that a specific number of Jews from each tribe will be sealed in the last days. I also believe there will be a large number of gentiles sealed and saved too, a number probably far greater than any that John could understand, but that there is a great multitude would indicate there were probably too many to count at a first glance. At least that is how I understand it. I've always understood that this is Tribulation saints though, not past saints.

David Taylor
Dec 4th 2008, 03:58 PM
I seem to recall, and am not going to look up the verses that in Revelation, or perhaps Ezekiel that the temple was to be measured. Then we hear about the 144K who are sealed, and is there not also a verse that says the outer court is given to the gentiles (a great multitude). I've always taken this to believe that a specific number of Jews from each tribe will be sealed in the last days. I also believe there will be a large number of gentiles sealed and saved too, a number probably far greater than any that John could understand, but that there is a great multitude would indicate there were probably too many to count at a first glance. At least that is how I understand it. I've always understood that this is Tribulation saints though, not past saints.

The bible doesn't mention or teach about a thing called a 'tribulation saint' or a 'past saint'.

Saints are all the same; born-again believers and faithful redeemed followers of Jesus Christ; washed in His blood; written in His book of Life, and destined to live together forever with Him; inheriting all things.

RANGER65
Dec 4th 2008, 04:06 PM
144,000 Jewish male virgins 12,000 from each of the 12 tribes of Israel that will be the evangelist team sent to the Jewish nation at the time of the Great Tribulation.

David Taylor
Dec 4th 2008, 04:15 PM
144,000 Jewish male virgins 12,000 from each of the 12 tribes of Israel that will be the evangelist team sent to the Jewish nation at the time of the Great Tribulation.

Revelation doesn't mention any evengelist team comprised of 144,000 Jews.

However, we know that the 144,000 while clearly defined ethnically as Jewish, are just as clearly defined as Christians...those redeemed and faultless by the Lamb, and who surround the Lamb wherever He goes.

Paul and Peter were Jews, yet they were also Christians; examples of the firstfruits of Salvation out of Israel; prior to the later uncountable multitude that would come from the gentile nations during the outgoing of the Great Commission to all then world.

Veretax
Dec 4th 2008, 04:20 PM
The bible doesn't mention or teach about a thing called a 'tribulation saint' or a 'past saint'.

Saints are all the same; born-again believers and faithful redeemed followers of Jesus Christ; washed in His blood; written in His book of Life, and destined to live together forever with Him; inheriting all things.

I disagree. I believe revelation is talking about the future, about what will be. If you don't believe that most if not all of Revelation was in the future (at least from the perspective of John who wrote it) then we are not going to agree on this. But the 144K are sealed near the middle of Revelation if memory serves, and there is a lot that happens after. I am not making a distinction here between past saints (who have already died or raptured, doesn't matter here) versus those who are saved during the Tribulation, what I am saying is I believe the passage is talking about believers that are living during the Tribulation. revelation isn't clear necessarily on when these people believe, as a Pre-Tribber, I believe they are saved after the Rapture, but if I wasn't I can understand why you might think they were already saved before or during the tribulation.

But that was not the point of what I was saying. The fact that i say they were saved during the tribulation, or that I use the word saint, is meant to distinguish them from them who are clearly lost at the time the sealing of these 144K takes place. that's all.

RANGER65
Dec 4th 2008, 04:26 PM
Rev 7:4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: [and there were] sealed an hundred [and] forty [and] four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.


Rev 7:5 Of the tribe of Juda [were] sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben [were] sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad [were] sealed twelve thousand.


Rev 7:6 Of the tribe of Aser [were] sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nepthalim [were] sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses [were] sealed twelve thousand.


Rev 7:7 Of the tribe of Simeon [were] sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi [were] sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar [were] sealed twelve thousand.


Rev 7:8 Of the tribe of Zabulon [were] sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph [were] sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin [were] sealed twelve thousand.


Rev 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;


Rev 7:10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.


Rev 7:11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and [about] the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,


Rev 7:12 Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, [be] unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.


Rev 7:13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?


Rev 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Rev 7:15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.


Rev 7:16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.


Rev 7:17 For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.

David Taylor
Dec 4th 2008, 04:29 PM
I disagree. I believe revelation is talking about the future, about what will be. If you don't believe that most if not all of Revelation was in the future (at least from the perspective of John who wrote it) then we are not going to agree on this.

I believe that most of what John wrote in Revelation is future.

However, I also recognize that parts of Revelation were written by John about past and present events also.

Many chapters recapitulate; and many sections of Revelation show panoramic views that span past, present, and future.

Chapter 7, where the 144K are mentioned; is a parenthetical insert that is showing all of the redeemed of all ages in a panoramic picture. It shows how the fledgling first believers, the 144K from Israel would not be stopped in their endeavor, but through them, the gospel would get out; and it would produce an uncountable multitude from every tongue, tribe, and nation. Chapter 7, is the Nutshell-Summary picture of all of the redeemed of all ages, first the Jew, then the Gentile.

Just exactly like we can see History itself has recorded; looking backwards with that hindsight that we know have.

The Harvest continues for us today; and we continue to draw more and more people into the uncountable multitude of faithful believers.....and this will continue until Jesus returns, and the world as we now know it ends.

RANGER65
Dec 4th 2008, 04:47 PM
I suppose the 144,000 that were sealed to protect them from the seals were just hanging out? Here is your first mention of the "Tribulation Saints" : Revelation 6:9-11
9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? 11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

And these here they ae described as the multitude "which came outo the "great tribulation". You be the judge if they are referred to as "Tribulation Saints".

And here is the answer to "Who are the 144,000?
Revelation 14: 1-5 (male virgins) 9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; 10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb. 11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God, 12 Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.

As far as the 144,000 being "Jewish" they re chosen from the 12 "Jewish" tribes.

RANGER65
Dec 4th 2008, 04:53 PM
You lost me David. Are you proposing the 144.000 are "past tense"?

I disagree, I believe the 144,000 are as fturistic as the Anti-Christ (not A antichrist But "THE ANTICHRIST"). They may be alive now. Age:1 or 2 But they are 12000 male virgins from each of the 12 tribes. They are the first fruits.
Rev 14:3 States that the 144k sang new song that no other man could sing. That is simply because they are the first Jews saved after the rapture of the church, the only company of peple that are sealed by an angel, only company of people with the Father's name written on their forehead while here on earth, only company of people protected from the trumpet judgements , only company composed of living believers who are saved and translated to Heaven in one generation. That is whytheir song can not be ung by any other man.

Raybob
Dec 4th 2008, 05:06 PM
...As far as the 144,000 being "Jewish" they re chosen from the 12 "Jewish" tribes.

Only one of the 12 tribes of Israel are Jewish. Jews are from the tribe of Judah. Judah did also include some from the tribe of Benjamin that split from Israel with Judah.

Search the bible for the word "Jew" and every reference is to the people of Judah, not from Israel. BIG difference. The biggest difference with the 144K is that they are all saints (Christians) sealed by the living God.

Neh 1:2 That Hanani, one of my brethren, came, he and certain men of Judah; and I asked them concerning the Jews that had escaped, which were left of the captivity, and concerning Jerusalem.

Raybob

David Taylor
Dec 4th 2008, 05:45 PM
You lost me David. Are you proposing the 144.000 are "past tense"?

I disagree, I believe the 144,000 are as fturistic

John said they were firstfruits to the Lamb....that requires a past-tense understanding.

If they were futuristic, then they would be the last-fruits; and there would be an uncountable multitude of first-fruits inline in front of them.

John said in chapter 14, they were the firstfruits of the Lamb....therefore harmonizing with the NT notion of 'to the Jew first, then the Gentile'; just as history has shown.

Veretax
Dec 4th 2008, 06:36 PM
John said they were firstfruits to the Lamb....that requires a past-tense understanding.

If they were futuristic, then they would be the last-fruits; and there would be an uncountable multitude of first-fruits inline in front of them.

John said in chapter 14, they were the firstfruits of the Lamb....therefore harmonizing with the NT notion of 'to the Jew first, then the Gentile'; just as history has shown.


Well coming from a Pre-Trib Rapture point of view, they could be viewed as the First Fruits of the 2 Witnesses in the Trib. And that does not necessarily require it to be in the past tense. (Firstfruits has the idea of tithing which you always tithed what a tenth of the firstfruits? The fact taht they came after other firstfruits doesn't change that they are.)

Codger
Dec 4th 2008, 07:37 PM
The book of Revelation was written to whom? Was it written to us today in the 21st century or Christians of the first century? Revelation plainly says it was written to the Seven Churches in Asia. So why does everyone try to interpret Revelation with a 21st century western mindset?

What did the 144,000 mean to the first century Christians? We only look over their shoulders to see what it meant to them and then we can see what it means to us - just like all the books in the Bible. None were written directly to us.

The correct listing of the 12 tribes of Israel from the book of Chronicles...
1 Chron. 2:1-2 (KJV)
These are the sons of Israel; Reuben, Simeon, Levi, and Judah, Issachar, and Zebulun, [2] Dan, Joseph, and Benjamin, Naphtali, Gad, and Asher.

Here is the symbolic listing of the tribes (144,000) IN REVELATION.

JUDAH – Who came from the tribe of Judah? Who was the firstborn of the New Covenant? The firstborn was always listed first - and in the O.T. listing the firstborn is always Reuben. But in this symbolic listing - Judah is first - WHY!! Because the firstborn of this company of people is Jesus. He is at the head of this group of people and the name Judah means “praise.”
Reuben - who sees the son
Gad - a band; a troop
Asher – happiness
Naphtali - that struggles or fights
Manasseh - forgetfulness
Simeon - that hears or obeys
Levi - associated with him
Issachar - reward; recompense
Zebulun - dwelling; habitation
Joseph - increase
Benjamin - son of the right hand
(Benoni) - son of my sorrow, or pain

So the symbolic picture of the 144,000 is a company of the New Covenant people who at their head is the firstborn Son seated at God’s right hand: the Church or people of God. A company of people who are happy and full of praise. An army who fights and obeys the one who has forgotten all of their sins; and they will increase and receive a reward and dwell with him forever. This was good news in particular to someone facing starved lions in the arenas of Rome.

As Rachel lie dying of childbirth with Benjamin – she named him “Benoni” that means “son of my suffering.” Jacob said no - he will be called “Benjamin” – son of my right hand. What a beautiful picture of Christ we have been given. He is our Benoni - Benjamin.

Reference:
Genesis 35:17-18 (NASB)
And it came about when she was in severe labor that the midwife said to her, "Do not fear, for now you have another son." 18 And it came about as her soul was departing (for she died), that she named him Ben-oni; but his father called him Benjamin.

So what about the two tribes that were left out? They simple did not fit the message of the author...
Ephraim – fruitful
Dan - judgment

God is not judging this company – they have escaped his judgment and wrath. You also need to take into account the fact that the 144,000 is mentioned in a couple places in Revelation. Are these all the same group or are they different? Lets look for a moment.

Rev. 14:1 (NASB)
And I looked, and behold, the Lamb was standing on Mount Zion, and with Him one hundred and forty-four thousand, having His name and the name of His Father written on their foreheads.

Rev. 14:3 (NASB)
And they sang a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders; and no one could learn the song except the one hundred and forty-four thousand who had been purchased from the earth.

Looks to me like its all the same group that we described initially, but instead of being “Sealed” they had the name of the Son and the Father on their foreheads - Same difference. In 14:3 they were purchased from the earth – the persecuted and martyred Saints of God. Same group as the others all associated by the number 144,000. It relates first to the people to whom it was written in 93AD, but after that - to all Saints who have been tested on the Earth including us today. The redeemed company of the Lord were the only ones who could learn the new song because it was a song learned from the trials and tribulations of life on Earth. Does this make sense to you?

Numbers in the Book of Revelation are “Symbols” and not arithmetic. 144,000 is 12 x 12 x 10 x 10 x 10. These are numbers which symbolize the unknown number of believers in this group. Revelation had to be simple for the people to understand in their day because a lot of the Christians then were uneducated slaves.

So why do I think this is the correct interpretation of the 144,000? Several reasons. First of all this interpretation is simple, and It also meant something to the Christians of the First century. It means something to all Christians of all ages throughout history from out of its original context - including us today, and will be a blessing to those who are yet to be born - should the lord delay his coming even longer. It doesn’t change with time or with current events; and it doesn’t just apply to a few select people somewhere out in the distant, obscure future.

The book of Revelation was written specifically to the 2,100,000 martyrs who died under the Roman Empire.

Larry

Veretax
Dec 4th 2008, 07:49 PM
The book of Revelation was written to whom? Was it written to us today in the 21st century or Christians of the first century? Revelation plainly says it was written to the Seven Churches in Asia. So why does everyone try to interpret Revelation with a 21st century western mindset?

What did the 144,000 mean to the first century Christians? We only look over their shoulders to see what it meant to them and then we can see what it means to us - just like all the books in the Bible. None were written directly to us.

The correct listing of the 12 tribes of Israel from the book of Chronicles...
1 Chron. 2:1-2 (KJV)
These are the sons of Israel; Reuben, Simeon, Levi, and Judah, Issachar, and Zebulun, [2] Dan, Joseph, and Benjamin, Naphtali, Gad, and Asher.

Here is the symbolic listing of the tribes (144,000) IN REVELATION.

JUDAH – Who came from the tribe of Judah? Who was the firstborn of the New Covenant? The firstborn was always listed first - and in the O.T. listing the firstborn is always Reuben. But in this symbolic listing - Judah is first - WHY!! Because the firstborn of this company of people is Jesus. He is at the head of this group of people and the name Judah means “praise.”
Reuben - who sees the son
Gad - a band; a troop
Asher – happiness
Naphtali - that struggles or fights
Manasseh - forgetfulness
Simeon - that hears or obeys
Levi - associated with him
Issachar - reward; recompense
Zebulun - dwelling; habitation
Joseph - increase
Benjamin - son of the right hand
(Benoni) - son of my sorrow, or pain

So the symbolic picture of the 144,000 is a company of the New Covenant people who at their head is the firstborn Son seated at God’s right hand: the Church or people of God. A company of people who are happy and full of praise. An army who fights and obeys the one who has forgotten all of their sins; and they will increase and receive a reward and dwell with him forever. This was good news in particular to someone facing starved lions in the arenas of Rome.

As Rachel lie dying of childbirth with Benjamin – she named him “Benoni” that means “son of my suffering.” Jacob said no - he will be called “Benjamin” – son of my right hand. What a beautiful picture of Christ we have been given. He is our Benoni - Benjamin.

Reference:
Genesis 35:17-18 (NASB)
And it came about when she was in severe labor that the midwife said to her, "Do not fear, for now you have another son." 18 And it came about as her soul was departing (for she died), that she named him Ben-oni; but his father called him Benjamin.

So what about the two tribes that were left out? They simple did not fit the message of the author...
Ephraim – fruitful
Dan - judgment

God is not judging this company – they have escaped his judgment and wrath. You also need to take into account the fact that the 144,000 is mentioned in a couple places in Revelation. Are these all the same group or are they different? Lets look for a moment.

Rev. 14:1 (NASB)
And I looked, and behold, the Lamb was standing on Mount Zion, and with Him one hundred and forty-four thousand, having His name and the name of His Father written on their foreheads.

Rev. 14:3 (NASB)
And they sang a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders; and no one could learn the song except the one hundred and forty-four thousand who had been purchased from the earth.

Looks to me like its all the same group that we described initially, but instead of being “Sealed” they had the name of the Son and the Father on their foreheads - Same difference. In 14:3 they were purchased from the earth – the persecuted and martyred Saints of God. Same group as the others all associated by the number 144,000. It relates first to the people to whom it was written in 93AD, but after that - to all Saints who have been tested on the Earth including us today. The redeemed company of the Lord were the only ones who could learn the new song because it was a song learned from the trials and tribulations of life on Earth. Does this make sense to you?

Numbers in the Book of Revelation are “Symbols” and not arithmetic. 144,000 is 12 x 12 x 10 x 10 x 10. These are numbers which symbolize the unknown number of believers in this group. Revelation had to be simple for the people to understand in their day because a lot of the Christians then were uneducated slaves.

So why do I think this is the correct interpretation of the 144,000? Several reasons. First of all this interpretation is simple, and It also meant something to the Christians of the First century. It means something to all Christians of all ages throughout history from out of its original context - including us today, and will be a blessing to those who are yet to be born - should the lord delay his coming even longer. It doesn’t change with time or with current events; and it doesn’t just apply to a few select people somewhere out in the distant, obscure future.

Larry


I'm not opposed to the idea that the number signifies perhaps the completeness of the number saved that were of israel.

Also here's something interesting there are two ways to factor this mathematically.

2*6 x 2*6 x 2*5 x 2*5 x 2*5

which condenses more by:

2*2*3 x 2*2*3 x 2*5 x 2*5 x 2*5

2*2*2*2*2*2*2 x 3*3 x 5*5
or
2^7 * 3^2 * 5 ^2

or

3*4 x 3*4 x 2*5 x 2*5 x 2*5

Now if we rearrange the numbers in order of value (without further breaking down)

2*2*2 x 3*3 x 4*4 x 5*5*5

8 * 9 * 16 * 125 (interesting that 8 and 125 is a perfect cube, 9, 16, is a perfect square)


Anyhow.

sorry tangent :/

Raybob
Dec 4th 2008, 07:50 PM
Well coming from a Pre-Trib Rapture point of view, they could be viewed as the First Fruits of the 2 Witnesses in the Trib. And that does not necessarily require it to be in the past tense. (Firstfruits has the idea of tithing which you always tithed what a tenth of the firstfruits? The fact that they came after other firstfruits doesn't change that they are.)

If that were true, then you would have to have three different resurrection days, one of Christians of the rapture, second of these 'trib saints', and third of the wicked on judgment day. Why does the bible only speak of one judgment day or "last day"? Why doesn't it mention a resurrection for these 'trib saints' as opposed to regular saints?

Joh 5:28-29 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, (29) And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Raybob

Veretax
Dec 4th 2008, 08:11 PM
If that were true, then you would have to have three different resurrection days, one of Christians of the rapture, second of these 'trib saints', and third of the wicked on judgment day. Why does the bible only speak of one judgment day or "last day"? Why doesn't it mention a resurrection for these 'trib saints' as opposed to regular saints?

Joh 5:28-29 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, (29) And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Raybob


1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 13 But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.
This verse talks about the dead in Christ coming with God. Some won't be dead when this happens. The only place in Revelation that I believe it mentions dead Trib saints, is where it talks about those who were martyred. They are seen in Heaven at least once in Revelation. (I'd have to get out my NT to find the verse though.)

Raybob
Dec 4th 2008, 09:42 PM
1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 13 But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.
This verse talks about the dead in Christ coming with God. Some won't be dead when this happens. The only place in Revelation that I believe it mentions dead Trib saints, is where it talks about those who were martyred. They are seen in Heaven at least once in Revelation. (I'd have to get out my NT to find the verse though.)

True about this verse but if you don't let chapter numbers interrupt Paul's writing, then you know what else happens to those left behind.

1Th 4:17-5:4 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words. But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

This still says nothing of a resurrection day for any other saints besides this last day.

Joh 12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

As for where the martyrs are spoken of, ALL the saints are spoken of there too as all saints received judgment at the cross and have spiritual crowns of victory over Satan.

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.


Raybob

Sirus
Dec 5th 2008, 02:20 AM
144,000 Jewish male virgins 12,000 from each of the 12 tribes of Israel that will be the evangelist team sent to the Jewish nation at the time of the Great Tribulation.

Revelation doesn't mention any evengelist team comprised of 144,000 Jews.

Mat 4:12 Now when Jesus had heard that John was cast into prison, he departed into Galilee;
Mat 4:13 And leaving Nazareth, he came and dwelt in Capernaum, which is upon the sea coast, in the borders of Zebulun and Naphtali:
Mat 4:14 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Isaiah the prophet, saying,
Mat 4:15 The land of Zebulun, and the land of Naphtali, by the way of the sea, beyond Jordan, Galilee of the Gentiles;
Mat 4:16 The people which sat in darkness saw great light; and to them which sat in the region and shadow of death light is sprung up.
Mat 4:17 From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.
..........
....
Mat 4:23 And Jesus went about all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing all manner of sickness and all manner of disease among the people.

The word kingdom is found over 200 times in the OT then in Matthew, the first book of the NT, the king of Israel comes along saying 'repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand'. A term used only in Matthew. What do you think that meant? The kingdom restored to Israel! A portion of Isaiah is quoted telling us to compare text and see what was being fulfilled.

Isa 9:7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even forever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.

Jesus, talking to the Jews (Judea v16) in Matthew 24, says

Mat 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
Mat 24:16 Then let them which be in Judea flee into the mountains:

The 144,000 will preach what John and Jesus first preached before John was put in prison, time was fulfilled, and the gospel of the kingdom of God was then preached and believed.

Raybob
Dec 5th 2008, 02:41 AM
...Mat 4:17 From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

Did you ever wonder why Jesus didn't say "Repent for the kingdom of heaven is in about 2000 years or more.":lol:

Isa 9:7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even forever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.

Hallelujah! Jesus IS on the throne!

Act 2:29-32 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day. (30) Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; (31) He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption. (32) This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.

Raybob

Sirus
Dec 5th 2008, 03:01 AM
No, Jesus is not on a throne in a davidic kingdom.....yet ;)

Veretax
Dec 5th 2008, 08:10 AM
True about this verse but if you don't let chapter numbers interrupt Paul's writing, then you know what else happens to those left behind.

1Th 4:17-5:4 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words. But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

This still says nothing of a resurrection day for any other saints besides this last day.

Joh 12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

As for where the martyrs are spoken of, ALL the saints are spoken of there too as all saints received judgment at the cross and have spiritual crowns of victory over Satan.

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.


Raybob


I don't understand the problem with chapter or verses, the entire point that I quoted that passage is that not ALL will be resurrected. Now regardless of your views on when the Rapture happens, there will be some who will be a live when christ comes and therefore won't be resurrected at all. That's the only reason I cited that passage.

Ezer Kenegdo
Dec 5th 2008, 01:56 PM
Now, my point is not that you are like this kid, that would be insulting so please dont get it that way. But it is that, we as Christians talking with people (and other Christians) cant just present theological positions that have no basis to them other than 'i believe', that is blind and foolhardy faith. What i was trying to point out in saying 'you are being inconsistent' is that you both, affirmed that there is no distinction between Jew or Gentile in Christ, but then you say there is. That in itself presents a juxtaposition that i find confusing. But, the other issue is that you presented quite a complex theological view without linking it to evidence for it which perplex's me, as the above illustration highlights.

From there you draw some sort of eschatological network of transition between 'preaching salvation' and 'preaching kingdom' which i find confusing as it was Jesus who first preached kingdom as the way to salvation. Anyway, moral of the story: please show me/us rather than telling me/us (if that makes sense). We all learn more together when we know the root of theological positions and help each other in love by showing inconsistencies. -----> the ultimate goal is truth so lets get to it.

In the few days I've been on this board I've seen countless times that a member will give his/her opinion or their interpretation of scripture without backing up that opinion by actually posting scripture. - in fact it is more the norm. I realize where you are coming from, and thank you for putting it so pleasantly, but I was attempting to put forth my differing opinion while at the same time avoiding the appearance of debating - which I don't think is even possible really. LOL



I do believe that there is no Jew nor Gentile "in Christ", but I do not believe that the Church has replaced Israel. I believe they are blinded for now, but at some point the time of the Gentiles will be fulfilled and God will turn his heart back to the Jews - just as now there are many Gentiles believing, and few Jews, I believe at that time there will be many Jews believing, and few Gentiles, although the gospel at that time will not be the gospel of salvation, but of the Kingdom - the coming Messiah who will rule with a rod of iron. The "gospel of the kingdom" that the 144,000 blood-line Jews will be preaching - just like John the Baptist.

I must admit that in all honesty I am not totally prepared to defend my case and therefore should not have even posted the above. This *is* a vast subject that I've been lightly studying for a couple of years now because I find it so fascinating and my husband and I just love to talk theology with each other. We read the bible and just believe what it says, letting it interpret itself.

Sirus is my husband, he is much better at this stuff than I: :)


Mat 4:12 Now when Jesus had heard that John was cast into prison, he departed into Galilee;
Mat 4:13 And leaving Nazareth, he came and dwelt in Capernaum, which is upon the sea coast, in the borders of Zebulun and Naphtali:
Mat 4:14 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Isaiah the prophet, saying,
Mat 4:15 The land of Zebulun, and the land of Naphtali, by the way of the sea, beyond Jordan, Galilee of the Gentiles;
Mat 4:16 The people which sat in darkness saw great light; and to them which sat in the region and shadow of death light is sprung up.
Mat 4:17 From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.
..........
....
Mat 4:23 And Jesus went about all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing all manner of sickness and all manner of disease among the people.

The word kingdom is found over 200 times in the OT then in Matthew, the first book of the NT, the king of Israel comes along saying 'repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand'. A term used only in Matthew. What do you think that meant? The kingdom restored to Israel! A portion of Isaiah is quoted telling us to compare text and see what was being fulfilled.

Isa 9:7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even forever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.

Jesus, talking to the Jews (Judea v16) in Matthew 24, says

Mat 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
Mat 24:16 Then let them which be in Judea flee into the mountains:

The 144,000 will preach what John and Jesus first preached before John was put in prison, time was fulfilled, and the gospel of the kingdom of God was then preached and believed.



The Kingdom of Heaven was taken by force?

Mat 11:12 And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force.

How can that be if, like the Kingdom of God, it is within you? The leaders of the day did not want a new king - they rejected Jesus and Jesus said:


Mat 23:13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.

The Kingdom of Heaven and the Kingdom of God are not the same. When we make them the same we must spiritual everything to make it make sense. When we keep them different a whole new world of understanding opens up to us and we see that God's plan is bigger than we ever thought or imagined. I don't totally understand it all. But I do know that the Kingdom of Heaven will come, King David will be resurrected and will sit on a throne in Jerusalem reigning over both halves of what is now a divided kingdom - Ezek. 37:19-28 - which was written 400 years after David's death, with Christ as King over the whole earth.

Ezer Kenegdo
Dec 5th 2008, 02:21 PM
For one thing, Jews are from the tribe of Judah. That is one of the 12 mentioned but the other 11 mentioned are NOT the same as the ones of the 12 tribes listed in the OT. Notice the tribe of Dan is not there. This is clearly a symbolic picture of something other than the original 12 tribes of Israel.

Only one of the 12 tribes of Israel are Jewish. Jews are from the tribe of Judah. Judah did also include some from the tribe of Benjamin that split from Israel with Judah.


What about the prophetess Anna, who was of the tribe of Asher, who came into the temple while baby Jesus was there being presented unto the Lord, and she "....gave thanks likewise unto the Lord, and spake of him to all them that looked for redemption in Jerusalem. " (Luke 2:38)?

Don't forget God divorced Israel.

Jer 3:8 And I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery I had put her away, and given her a bill of divorce; yet her treacherous sister Judah feared not, but went and played the harlot also.

Yes, but there are other passages to show that He will turn back to them.

Isa 54:6 For the LORD hath called thee as a woman forsaken and grieved in spirit, and a wife of youth, when thou wast refused, saith thy God.
Isa 54:7 For a small moment have I forsaken thee; but with great mercies will I gather thee.
Isa 54:8 In a little wrath I hid my face from thee for a moment; but with everlasting kindness will I have mercy on thee, saith the LORD thy Redeemer. And

Hos 3:4 For the children of Israel shall abide many days without a king, and without a prince, and without a sacrifice, and without an image, and without an ephod, and without teraphim:
Hos 3:5 Afterward shall the children of Israel return, and seek the LORD their God, and David their king; and shall fear the LORD and his goodness in the latter days. And


Rom 10:21 But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.
Rom 11:1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
Rom 11:2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew.......

Rom 11:11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
Rom 11:12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fullness?
Rom 11:13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:
Rom 11:14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.
Rom 11:15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?
Rom 11:16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.
Rom 11:17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
Rom 11:18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
Rom 11:19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.
Rom 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
Rom 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
Rom 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
Rom 11:23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.
Rom 11:24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?
Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in.

Revinius
Dec 5th 2008, 03:28 PM
The Kingdom of Heaven was taken by force? How can that be if, like the Kingdom of God, it is within you? The leaders of the day did not want a new king - they rejected Jesus and Jesus said:

I never said 'the Kingdom' was exclusively within anything. :S



The Kingdom of Heaven and the Kingdom of God are not the same. When we make them the same we must spiritual everything to make it make sense. When we keep them different a whole new world of understanding opens up to us and we see that God's plan is bigger than we ever thought or imagined. I don't totally understand it all. But I do know that the Kingdom of Heaven will come, King David will be resurrected and will sit on a throne in Jerusalem reigning over both halves of what is now a divided kingdom - Ezek. 37:19-28 - which was written 400 years after David's death, with Christ as King over the whole earth.

So... that puts forth that the Matthew material is completely alien to Lukan 'Q' material of almost exactly the same content and phrasing? A somewhat unlikely hypothesis methinks. The more plausible and uniting explanation is Matthew is concerned at times in using the word 'God' to describe the Kingdom. So, although Luke and he are talking of same events, Matthew shows concern for his use of the word 'God', censoring it with 'Heaven'.

NB. I put forward that the Kingdom Jesus spoke of was both physical and spiritual; 'alien' to the status quo of the world (cf. Matt 5). The 'way of the cross' Jesus speaks of is a very physical representation on how His people, His new Kingdom, is to live. But the 'Councellor' he is sending (Spirit) gives this Kingdom a spiritual dimension that is unavoidable when looking through such documents as Acts and the theology of Paul.

If you would like to know more let me know but it's 2:30am here so tis time for slumber. :)

Raybob
Dec 5th 2008, 05:21 PM
What about the prophetess Anna, who was of the tribe of Asher, who came into the temple while baby Jesus was there being presented unto the Lord, and she "....gave thanks likewise unto the Lord, and spake of him to all them that looked for redemption in Jerusalem. " (Luke 2:38)?

When Judah split from Israel, most of the tribe of Benjamin went with Judah along with a few from other tribes but most of Israel became a different kingdom.



Yes, but there are other passages to show that He will turn back to them.

Those are passages that speak of the New Covenant that Jesus brought when He took His throne of David (Acts 2:30). The New Covenant was for the Jew first, then the gentiles.

Raybob

Ezer Kenegdo
Dec 6th 2008, 01:31 AM
there are other passages to show that He will turn back to them.
Those are passages that speak of the New Covenant that Jesus brought when He took His throne of David (Acts 2:30). The New Covenant was for the Jew first, then the gentiles.

Raybob

Please bear with me, I'm trying to understand this from your perspective. So it is your belief that any time Israel is mentioned in the New Testament it is now a spiritual Israel that is the Church?

Can you explain for me what, in your opinion, Paul is talking about then in Romans 11? First he identifies himself as a blood-line Israelite of the tribe of Benjamin and says God has not cast away his people. He says God blinded them, so that he may bring in the gentiles, and provoke them to jealousy. He says "I'm speaking to you Gentiles, that I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh" - he identifies again Israel as his literal fleshly relatives. Then tells them not to be high minded about being grafted in when some of the natural branches were broken off - but to fear. And that Israel is blinded "until" the fullness of the gentiles is brought in.

So if Israel as a nation/people is no more in God's eyes (this is what you are saying right? Or have I misunderstood?) then who is it that is blinded to let the gentiles in, and why are the gentiles warned that they may be cut off and that when Israel believes they, as the natural branches, will be grafted back in?

Rene'

Sirus
Dec 6th 2008, 04:00 AM
So... that puts forth that the Matthew material is completely alien to Lukan 'Q' material of almost exactly the same content and phrasing? A somewhat unlikely hypothesis methinks. The more plausible and uniting explanation is Matthew is concerned at times in using the word 'God' to describe the Kingdom. So, although Luke and he are talking of same events, Matthew shows concern for his use of the word 'God', censoring it with 'Heaven'.Alien? They were both written and maintained by the same Holy Ghost. Or do you not believe that? I'm just saying......

Matthew censoring 'heaven' is almost laughable. The Holy Ghost used both terms and not only that, He used them in back to back verses. No where in Scripture or the writings of the day is there a concern for saying the name of God.


NB. I put forward that the Kingdom Jesus spoke of was both physical and spiritual; 'alien' to the status quo of the world (cf. Matt 5). The 'way of the cross' Jesus speaks of is a very physical representation on how His people, His new Kingdom, is to live. But the 'Councellor' he is sending (Spirit) gives this Kingdom a spiritual dimension that is unavoidable when looking through such documents as Acts and the theology of Paul.

If you would like to know more let me know but it's 2:30am here so tis time for slumber. :)The dichotomy of the physical and the spiritual is found throughout Scripture. It is one kingdom but for the purpose and will of God that is faith in Christ we see through a glass darkly and the glory has not yet been realized. How can the kingdom of God be taken by force? It can't but it does say the kingdom of heaven can, has, and will. What 'time was fulfilled' when John was put in prison and from that time Jesus preached the kingdom of God. The Q says nothing of this, and can't. Can you? I'm not interested in your opinion. I want to see scripture that explains this away. Do you have any?

Raybob
Dec 6th 2008, 04:05 AM
Please bear with me, I'm trying to understand this from your perspective. So it is your belief that any time Israel is mentioned in the New Testament it is now a spiritual Israel that is the Church?

I wouldn't say every time Israel is mentioned in the NT but most of the time after the cross, Israel represents "God's people" including the gentiles that were grafted in. I see most prophecy in the OT that refers to Judah or Israel as referring to the church (Jew and gentile).


Can you explain for me what, in your opinion, Paul is talking about then in Romans 11? First he identifies himself as a blood-line Israelite of the tribe of Benjamin and says God has not cast away his people. He says God blinded them, so that he may bring in the gentiles, and provoke them to jealousy. He says "I'm speaking to you Gentiles, that I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh" - he identifies again Israel as his literal fleshly relatives. Then tells them not to be high minded about being grafted in when some of the natural branches were broken off - but to fear. And that Israel is blinded "until" the fullness of the gentiles is brought in.

Rom 11:7-8 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded (8) (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.

This is saying the elect from Israel hath obtained salvation but the rest that didn't receive Christ are blinded.


So if Israel as a nation/people is no more in God's eyes (this is what you are saying right? Or have I misunderstood?)Yes.
then who is it that is blinded to let the gentiles in, and why are the gentiles warned that they may be cut off and that when Israel believes they, as the natural branches, will be grafted back in?

I'm not sure of your question.
Rom 11:23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.

This says if they receive the truth, God is able to graff them in to the fold.


Raybob

Revinius
Dec 6th 2008, 03:45 PM
Alien? They were both written and maintained by the same Holy Ghost. Or do you not believe that? I'm just saying......

Matthew censoring 'heaven' is almost laughable. The Holy Ghost used both terms and not only that, He used them in back to back verses. No where in Scripture or the writings of the day is there a concern for saying the name of God.

It is all the inspired Word and i never said otherwise. But i am asking you to compare identical verses in Matt and Luke (Q material) with the only redaction being the use of 'Heaven' instead of 'God' in reference to the 'Kingdom'. That in itself is evidence that the kingdoms being mentioned are the same.


The dichotomy of the physical and the spiritual is found throughout Scripture. It is one kingdom but for the purpose and will of God that is faith in Christ we see through a glass darkly and the glory has not yet been realized. How can the kingdom of God be taken by force? It can't but it does say the kingdom of heaven can, has, and will. What 'time was fulfilled' when John was put in prison and from that time Jesus preached the kingdom of God. The Q says nothing of this, and can't. Can you? I'm not interested in your opinion. I want to see scripture that explains this away. Do you have any?

I dont think the translation implies that it 'can be taken by force' but rather that it is being attacked. This does not mean that it can be taken but rather that men attempt an assault upon it. This line fits well with the events of John's arrest (who is being imprisoned in this passage) and also later with Jesus death. It is clear that 'the way of the cross' is one beset by enemies that attempt to assault it forcefully. The more accurate translation (dont even touch the NIV on this one lol) is 'the kingdom of heaven has been subjected to violence, and violent men attack it'.

Sirus
Dec 6th 2008, 06:40 PM
It is all the inspired Word and i never said otherwise. But i am asking you to compare identical verses in Matt and Luke (Q material) with the only redaction being the use of 'Heaven' instead of 'God' in reference to the 'Kingdom'. That in itself is evidence that the kingdoms being mentioned are the same.I have diligently and holistically compared them for two years. If the only redaction is the use of 'Heaven' instead of 'God' in reference to the 'Kingdom' how and why did God get in there? You are starting off on a false premise as there is no evidence of this practice, which is why the first English translators left the differences in tact. It is not a translators job to inject his theology. There has been no new evidence to suggest Matthew was attempting to use heaven in place of God.



I dont think the translation implies that it 'can be taken by force' but rather that it is being attacked. This does not mean that it can be taken but rather that men attempt an assault upon it. This line fits well with the events of John's arrest (who is being imprisoned in this passage) and also later with Jesus death. It is clear that 'the way of the cross' is one beset by enemies that attempt to assault it forcefully. The more accurate translation (dont even touch the NIV on this one lol) is 'the kingdom of heaven has been subjected to violence, and violent men attack it'.
Don't worry, I don't touch the NIV at all since it is a paraphrase bible and not intended to be an accurate translation for serious study.
You think the spiritual and natural are NOW one and complete. I think Jesus said NOW is my kingdom is not from here very plainly. Clearly He said 'time is fulfilled' and clearly a different message was preached and more than Jews were given audience. Clearly the kingdom of God, not heaven, was given to another nation bearing fruit. The kingdom of heaven restored to Israel did not come. The disciples repeatedly brought this up and not once did Jesus deny their claim, but affirmed it and said the 'time' is not for them to worry about.