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DIZZY
Dec 1st 2008, 08:45 PM
Who are the mortals in the millennial kingdom
The question asked.

Why do you have flesh and blood (people still with their mortal bodies) inheriting the kingdom when 1 Cor 15:50 clearly says that is not possible?

1 Corinthians 15:50-54
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory.”

1 Thessalonians 4:15-17
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

No it is not impossible for flesh and blood to inherit the kingdom. 1 Cor 15:50-54 is talking about the rapture of the church. Let’s look at Revelation for a minute.

Revelation 6:15-17
15And the kings of the earth, the great men, the rich men, the commanders, the mighty men, every slave and every free man, hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains, 16 and said to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! 17 For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?”

Revelation 7:1-3
1 After these things I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, on the sea, or on any tree. 2 Then I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God. And he cried with a loud voice to the four angels to whom it was granted to harm the earth and the sea, 3 saying, “Do not harm the earth, the sea, or the trees till we have sealed the servants of our God on their foreheads.”

So the 144,000 are sealed just like those who were sealed in the forehead in Ezekiel 9.

Ezekiel 9:1-6
1 Then He called out in my hearing with a loud voice, saying, “Let those who have charge over the city draw near, each with a deadly weapon in his hand.” 2 And suddenly six men came from the direction of the upper gate, which faces north, each with his battle-ax in his hand. One man among them was clothed with linen and had a writer’s inkhorn at his side. They went in and stood beside the bronze altar.
3 Now the glory of the God of Israel had gone up from the cherub, where it had been, to the threshold of the temple. And He called to the man clothed with linen, who had the writer’s inkhorn at his side; 4 and the LORD said to him, “Go through the midst of the city, through the midst of Jerusalem, and put a mark on the foreheads of the men who sigh and cry over all the abominations that are done within it.”
5 To the others He said in my hearing, “Go after him through the city and kill; do not let your eye spare, nor have any pity. 6 Utterly slay old and young men, maidens and little children and women; but do not come near anyone on whom is the mark; and begin at My sanctuary.” So they began with the elders who were before the temple.

The question asked, who is able to stand against the wrath of God? We find the answer to that in Rev 7, it tells us the 144,000 are able to stand and they are sealed by God before the tribulation begins. Now if the church was there would it not say the 144,000 and my faithful servants, but it doesn’t why?

1 Thessalonians 1:10 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=59&chapter=1&verse=10&version=50&context=verse)
and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, even Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come.

1 Thessalonians 5:9 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=59&chapter=5&verse=9&version=50&context=verse)
For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,


Revelation 3:10
10 Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.

The church does not need to be tested for she is a faithful servant.


1 Thessalonians 3:12-13
12 And may the Lord make you increase and abound in love to one another and to all, just as we do to you, 13 so that He may establish your hearts blameless in holiness before our God and Father at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all His saints.

The Lord returns with the church which make up part of the armies of the Lord in Rev 19.

Revelation 19:11-16
11</SPAN> Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war. 12 His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns. He had a name written that no one knew except Himself. 13 He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses. 15 Now out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. 16 And He has on His robe and on His thigh a name written:

KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.

The armies consist of angels and saints, the church saints and the martyred saints. These saints reign with the Lord during the millennial kingdom. Who do they reign over?

Those that reign with Christ, reign over the saints who survive the tribulation period. When the Lord returns to Jerusalem there is believing saints from every nation on the earth. The Lord destroys the wicked which leaves only believers, these saints go up to worship the Lord and keep the Feast of Tabernacles.

Zechariah 14:16-21
16</SPAN> And it shall come to pass that everyone who is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the Feast of Tabernacles. 17 And it shall be that whichever of the families of the earth do not come up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, on them there will be no rain. 18 If the family of Egypt will not come up and enter in, they shall have no rain; they shall receive the plague with which the LORD strikes the nations who do not come up to keep the Feast of Tabernacles. 19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt and the punishment of all the nations that do not come up to keep the Feast of Tabernacles.
20 In that day “HOLINESS TO THE LORD” shall be engraved on the bells of the horses. The pots in the LORD’s house shall be like the bowls before the altar. 21 Yes, every pot in Jerusalem and Judah shall be holiness to the LORD of hosts. Everyone who sacrifices shall come and take them and cook in them. In that day there shall no longer be a Canaanite in the house of the LORD of hosts.

So who are the mortals in the millennial kingdom? They are believing saints who did not perish and did not worship or take the mark of the beast. They are the soul survivors of the tribulation.

There are two types of people mentioned in revelation 3:10. I would like to discuss these two groups of people but I have to go to work, I'll discuss it when I get back.

Revelation 3:10
10 Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.

third hero
Dec 1st 2008, 10:16 PM
Hello, Dizzy, and thank you for starting a new thread. I hope that this will be productive.


1 Corinthians 15:50-54
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory.”

1 Thessalonians 4:15-17
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

No it is not impossible for flesh and blood to inherit the kingdom. 1 Cor 15:50-54 is talking about the rapture of the church. Let’s look at Revelation for a minute.

Agreed.


Revelation 6:15-17
15And the kings of the earth, the great men, the rich men, the commanders, the mighty men, every slave and every free man, hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains, 16 and said to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! 17 For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?”

This is where the disagreement begins. The kingds of the earth do not know when the Lord returns, and although the mountains move, it is not the same as the mountains falling, like what will happen when the Day of the Lord actually comes.



Revelation 7:1-3
1 After these things I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, on the sea, or on any tree. 2 Then I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God. And he cried with a loud voice to the four angels to whom it was granted to harm the earth and the sea, 3 saying, “Do not harm the earth, the sea, or the trees till we have sealed the servants of our God on their foreheads.”

So the 144,000 are sealed just like those who were sealed in the forehead in Ezekiel 9.

Ezekiel 9:1-6
1 Then He called out in my hearing with a loud voice, saying, “Let those who have charge over the city draw near, each with a deadly weapon in his hand.” 2 And suddenly six men came from the direction of the upper gate, which faces north, each with his battle-ax in his hand. One man among them was clothed with linen and had a writer’s inkhorn at his side. They went in and stood beside the bronze altar.
3 Now the glory of the God of Israel had gone up from the cherub, where it had been, to the threshold of the temple. And He called to the man clothed with linen, who had the writer’s inkhorn at his side; 4 and the LORD said to him, “Go through the midst of the city, through the midst of Jerusalem, and put a mark on the foreheads of the men who sigh and cry over all the abominations that are done within it.”
5 To the others He said in my hearing, “Go after him through the city and kill; do not let your eye spare, nor have any pity. 6 Utterly slay old and young men, maidens and little children and women; but do not come near anyone on whom is the mark; and begin at My sanctuary.” So they began with the elders who were before the temple.

The question asked, who is able to stand against the wrath of God? We find the answer to that in Rev 7, it tells us the 144,000 are able to stand and they are sealed by God before the tribulation begins. Now if the church was there would it not say the 144,000 and my faithful servants, but it doesn’t why?

First point. Ezekiel 9 was a set up for chapter 11, as the entire prophecy spanned three chapters, including Ezekiel 10. This was fulfilled a long time ago, and does not pertain to the end times.

Second point. The whole sign of the blood-moon is about the sealing of the 144,000. The 144,000 being sealed is the total reason why God gives the sign in the first place. The fact that the men of the earth misconstrues the actual sign of the Lord's return, which is total darkness in the heavens and on earth, with no sun or moonlight, lets me know that the sign of the blood-moon is not about the return. For the red light is stilll light, and that is not the sign of the Lord's return. Notice that the people in chapter 6 do not see the Lord in the air?



1 Thessalonians 1:10 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=59&chapter=1&verse=10&version=50&context=verse)
and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, even Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come.

1 Thessalonians 5:9 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=59&chapter=5&verse=9&version=50&context=verse)
For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,


Revelation 3:10
10 Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.

The church does not need to be tested for she is a faithful servant.

This is a contradiction to what the Lord has already told the disciples. We are to be tested, and in this world we will have tribulation, which is testing and trying of the saints to see if they are true or not.

These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world. -John 16:33


1 Thessalonians 3:12-13
12 And may the Lord make you increase and abound in love to one another and to all, just as we do to you, 13 so that He may establish your hearts blameless in holiness before our God and Father at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all His saints.

The Lord returns with the church which make up part of the armies of the Lord in Rev 19.

That verse does not say that. Paul is admonishing the believers to continue in love towards one another, so that you will be blameless when the Lord returns.


Revelation 19:11-16
11</SPAN> Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war. 12 His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns. He had a name written that no one knew except Himself. 13 He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses. 15 Now out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. 16 And He has on His robe and on His thigh a name written:

KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.

The armies consist of angels and saints, the church saints and the martyred saints. These saints reign with the Lord during the millennial kingdom. Who do they reign over?

Those that reign with Christ, reign over the saints who survive the tribulation period. When the Lord returns to Jerusalem there is believing saints from every nation on the earth. The Lord destroys the wicked which leaves only believers, these saints go up to worship the Lord and keep the Feast of Tabernacles.

1. It is not proven that the Lord will use the believers as part of His Army when He returns. I personally believe that He will, but there is no scripture that says so, and so, I have to say so. We can not use our own personal beliefs based on assumptions as Biblical fact, because it is not. It is only our beliefs.

2. All of the wicked are not destroyed at Armageddon. Only those military that Satan, the Beast, and the false prophet summons to Megiddo. The entire world does not consist of the armies that the Lord will destroy. There will be those who are not summoned to Megiddo, and those people, at least those who are not killed during the destruction of the mountains, the sinking of the islands, the pounding by 100lb hailstones, and those who are considered to be sheep based on their treatment of the saints during the Great Tribulation. They are the ones who will be ruled by the Lord, because the Lord will retrieve ALL of the righteous from this earth when He returns, and not before.


Zechariah 14:16-21
16</SPAN> And it shall come to pass that everyone who is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the Feast of Tabernacles.17 And it shall be that whichever of the families of the earth do not come up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, on them there will be no rain. 18 If the family of Egypt will not come up and enter in, they shall have no rain; they shall receive the plague with which the LORD strikes the nations who do not come up to keep the Feast of Tabernacles. 19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt and the punishment of all the nations that do not come up to keep the Feast of Tabernacles.
20 In that day “HOLINESS TO THE LORD” shall be engraved on the bells of the horses. The pots in the LORD’s house shall be like the bowls before the altar. 21 Yes, every pot in Jerusalem and Judah shall be holiness to the LORD of hosts. Everyone who sacrifices shall come and take them and cook in them. In that day there shall no longer be a Canaanite in the house of the LORD of hosts.

So who are the mortals in the millennial kingdom? They are believing saints who did not perish and did not worship or take the mark of the beast. They are the soul survivors of the tribulation.

How is that? The righteous who did not take the Mark and did not lose their heads are retrieved by the Lord's Angels at His return.

Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Matthew 24:29-31

SO, all of the righteous are gone. And so, the survivors can not be the righteous. Therefore, who's left?

third hero
Dec 1st 2008, 10:29 PM
Who's left? The heathen.

According to Daniel 7:12, when the beast is hurled into the consuming flame, the rest of the beast is stripped of their authority, but are spared their lives.

As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time. -Daniel 7:12

Also, according to Zechariah 14:16, the remnant of the nations that attacked Jerusalem are the ones who will have to go to Jerusalem.

And it shall come to pass, [that] every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles. -Zechariah 14:16

Moreover, Zechariah 14:18 tells us EXACTLY who the survivors are.

And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that [have] no [rain]; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles. -Zechariah 14:18

Scripture is clear. The survivors are the heathen. And it makes sense, since they are also mentioned in Ezekiel 39.

So will I make my holy name known in the midst of my people Israel; and I will not [let them] pollute my holy name any more: and the heathen shall know that I [am] the LORD, the Holy One in Israel. -Ezekiel 39:7

Therefore, It is NOT the righteous who survive the Great Tribulation, but the heathen that are spared their lives.

DIZZY
Dec 2nd 2008, 07:44 AM
Hello, Dizzy, and thank you for starting a new thread. I hope that this will be productive.

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Agreed.

This is where the disagreement begins. The kingds of the earth do not know when the Lord returns, and although the mountains move, it is not the same as the mountains falling, like what will happen when the Day of the Lord actually comes.




[B]First point. Ezekiel 9 was a set up for chapter 11, as the entire prophecy spanned three chapters, including Ezekiel 10. This was fulfilled a long time ago, and does not pertain to the end times.

Second point. The whole sign of the blood-moon is about the sealing of the 144,000. The 144,000 being sealed is the total reason why God gives the sign in the first place. The fact that the men of the earth misconstrues the actual sign of the Lord's return, which is total darkness in the heavens and on earth, with no sun or moonlight, lets me know that the sign of the blood-moon is not about the return. For the red light is stilll light, and that is not the sign of the Lord's return. Notice that the people in chapter 6 do not see the Lord in the air?




[B]This is a contradiction to what the Lord has already told the disciples. We are to be tested, and in this world we will have tribulation, which is testing and trying of the saints to see if they are true or not.

These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. [U]In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world. -John 16:33

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That verse does not say that. Paul is admonishing the believers to continue in love towards one another, so that you will be blameless when the Lord returns.

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1. It is not proven that the Lord will use the believers as part of His Army when He returns. I personally believe that He will, but there is no scripture that says so, and so, I have to say so. We can not use our own personal beliefs based on assumptions as Biblical fact, because it is not. It is only our beliefs.

2. All of the wicked are not destroyed at Armageddon. Only those military that Satan, the Beast, and the false prophet summons to Megiddo. The entire world does not consist of the armies that the Lord will destroy. There will be those who are not summoned to Megiddo, and those people, at least those who are not killed during the destruction of the mountains, the sinking of the islands, the pounding by 100lb hailstones, and those who are considered to be sheep based on their treatment of the saints during the Great Tribulation. They are the ones who will be ruled by the Lord, because the Lord will retrieve ALL of the righteous from this earth when He returns, and not before.

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How is that? The righteous who did not take the Mark and did not lose their heads are retrieved by the Lord's Angels at His return.

[B]Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Matthew 24:29-31

SO, all of the righteous are gone. And so, the survivors can not be the righteous. Therefore, who's left?


Hi ThirdHero,
I gave the above verses from revelation 6:15-17 to show who is able to stand when it comes to the wrath of God being poured out on the earth.

Ezekiel 9 was just an example of those who are sealed are protected by God, nothing else, I know this has nothing to do with the end times.

I know the kings of the earth do not know when the Lord returns, what is said is they know who it is that is bringing the wrath upon them.

Revelation 6:15-17
15Then the kings of the earth, the princes, the generals, the rich, the mighty, and every slave and every free man hid in caves and among the rocks of the mountains. 16They called to the mountains and the rocks, "Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! 17For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can stand?"
I also said that a question is asked. Who is able to stand (survive) the wrath of God? The 144,000 are able to survive for they have been sealed by God in their foreheads.

I know the people in chapter 6 do not see the Lord returning in the air. Why? This is only the beginning of the tribulation period, the people will see the Lord return at the end of thegreat tribulation in Revelation 19.

John 16:33
33 These things I have spoken to you, that in Me you may have peace. In the world you will have tribulation; but be of good cheer, I have overcome the world.”

During our lives we go through many trials and tribulations that test our faith. Some tribulations a Christian goes through may turn them away from their faith and they turn their backs on the Lord. Some the tribulations we go through will bring us closer to the Lord and our faith grows stronger. So the tribulation we go through is a testing of our faith and this testing helps us to grow as Christians.

James 1:2-4
2</SPAN> My brethren, count it all joy when you fall into various trials, 3 knowing that the testing of your faith produces patience. 4 But let patience have its perfect work, that you may be perfect and complete, lacking nothing.
Now concerning the hour of trial that comes on the whole world the church will not be here as I said. The word of God is clear on this point. As I said earlier there are two groups of people spoken of in Revelation 3:10, let’s have a look.
Revelation 3:10
10 Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.
The two groups we have are those who are kept from the hour of trial (the church), and those who go through the hour of trial (tribulation) the wicked.
1 Thessalonians 3:12-13
12 And may the Lord make you increase and abound in love to one another and to all, just as we do to you, 13 so that He may establish your hearts blameless in holiness before our God and Father at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all His saints.


That verse does not say that. Paul is admonishing the believers to continue in love towards one another, so that you will be blameless when the Lord returns.

This is a true statement but it also tells us that the Lord returns with the church saints and the tribulation saints. Have a look at the end of verse 13 it says at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all His saints. Now we have established that let’s look mat Revelation 19
Revelation 19:11-16

11 Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war. 12 His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns. He had a name written that no one knew except Himself. 13 He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses. 15 Now out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. 16 And He has on His robe and on His thigh a name written:

KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.
I have bolded verses 13,14 it tells us of the sacrificial lamb who is the Word of God. It tells us those who have been cleaned in His blood and are clothed in fine linen, white and clean. They have been washed in the blood of the Lamb. These are the armies of the Lord, the church, the tribulation saints and the Holy angels. These three groups return with the Lord. This is not an assumption it is a fact.
Zechariah 14:16
16</SPAN> And it shall come to pass that everyone who is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the Feast of Tabernacles.
Which part of all the nations do you not understand all the nations go up against Jerusalem the wicked are destroyed.
[U]Zechariah 14:1-3
1</SPAN> Behold, the day of the LORD is coming,
And your spoil will be divided in your midst.
2 For I will gather all the nations to battle against Jerusalem;
The city shall be taken,
The houses rifled,
And the women ravished.
Half of the city shall go into captivity,
But the remnant of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
3 Then the LORD will go forth
And fight against those nations,
As He fights in the day of battle.
4</SPAN> And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives,
Which faces Jerusalem on the east.
And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two,
From east to west,
Makinga very large valley;
Half of the mountain shall move toward the north
And half of it toward the south.
5 Then you shall flee through My mountain valley,
For the mountain valley shall reach to Azal.
Yes, you shall flee
As you fled from the earthquake
In the days of Uzziah king of Judah.

Thus the LORD my God will come, (just thought I would highlight the saints coming with the Lord)
And all the saints with You.
6 It shall come to pass in that day
That there will be no light;
The lights will diminish.
You have no scripture to support your theory that the wicked that are left over from the tribulation period go into the millennial kingdom.
Revelation 16:12-16
12</SPAN> Then the sixth angel poured out his bowl on the great river Euphrates, and its water was dried up, so that the way of the kings from the east might be prepared. 13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs coming out of the mouth of the dragon, out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet. 14 For they are spirits of demons, performing signs, which go out to the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
15 “Behold, I am coming as a thief. Blessed is he who watches, and keeps his garments, lest he walk naked and they see his shame.”
16 And they gathered them together to the place called in Hebrew, Armageddon
Revelation 16 tells us that the kings of the whole earth go out to battle at Armageddon, which means the peoples of every nation go up in battle against Jerusalem. So all the wicked of the earth go up against Jerusalem and are destroyed by the Word that proceeds out of the Lord’s mouth. That only leaves the believing Jews and those believers from all the nations left, they are not destroyed in the battle.
Yes those who did not take the mark of the beast or lose their heads are retrieved by the Lord’s angels and gathered to the Lord. They are gathered to the Lord in their mortal bodies and they go into the millennial kingdom. So the Jews who survived will lead the nations to their God
Zechariah 8:23 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=45&chapter=8&verse=23&version=50&context=verse)
“Thus says the LORD of hosts: ‘In those days ten men from every language of the nations shall grasp the sleeve of a Jewish man, saying, “Let us go with you, for we have heard that God is with you.”’”

DurbanDude
Dec 3rd 2008, 06:25 PM
Revelation 7:1-3
1 After these things I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, on the sea, or on any tree. 2 Then I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God. And he cried with a loud voice to the four angels to whom it was granted to harm the earth and the sea, 3 saying, “Do not harm the earth, the sea, or the trees till we have sealed the servants of our God on their foreheads.”

The question asked, who is able to stand against the wrath of God? We find the answer to that in Rev 7, it tells us the 144,000 are able to stand and they are sealed by God before the tribulation begins. Now if the church was there would it not say the 144,000 and my faithful servants, but it doesn’t why?



Dizzy, to understand this better I dare you to research what the New Testament says about the seal of God. This is the holy spirit. If the church was there , then the church would already be sealed and would not need to be re-sealed, they would be awaiting the resurrection. The 144 000 somehow had escaped the mark of the beast through God's special protection over Israel in the last 3.5 years (read Rev 12). They come to Christ right at the end, the last will be first and the first will be last. Read the parable of the labourers too, and Joel, this is the final revival as Jesus comes.




1 Thessalonians 1:10 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=59&chapter=1&verse=10&version=50&context=verse)
and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, even Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come.

1 Thessalonians 5:9 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=59&chapter=5&verse=9&version=50&context=verse)
For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,


Revelation 3:10
10 Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.
The church does not need to be tested for she is a faithful servant.



There is the wrath of God moments before He comes, and the wrath when He comes. If the believers are resurrected even a moment before this final destruction these verses would be very well fulfilled. So these verses are no proof that the church won't be around during the tribulation, they are just proof that the most intense wrath will be avoided.


Revelation 19:11-16
11</SPAN> Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war. 12 His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns. He had a name written that no one knew except Himself. 13 He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses. 15 Now out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. 16 And He has on His robe and on His thigh a name written:

KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.

The armies consist of angels and saints, the church saints and the martyred saints. These saints reign with the Lord during the millennial kingdom. Who do they reign over?

Those that reign with Christ, reign over the saints who survive the tribulation period. When the Lord returns to Jerusalem there is believing saints from every nation on the earth. The Lord destroys the wicked which leaves only believers, these saints go up to worship the Lord and keep the Feast of Tabernacles


Dizzy, I agree with you here about who reigns.

But I don't see any evidence of your conclusion about who is reigned over from the verse you quoted here. Rev 19 does not define who these nations are , except to say that the nations that are struck will be ruled with a rod of iron. These nations seem to need discipline from the start.


Zechariah 14:16-21
16</SPAN> And it shall come to pass that everyone who is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the Feast of Tabernacles.17 And it shall be that whichever of the families of the earth do not come up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, on them there will be no rain. 18 If the family of Egypt will not come up and enter in, they shall have no rain; they shall receive the plague with which the LORD strikes the nations who do not come up to keep the Feast of Tabernacles. 19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt and the punishment of all the nations that do not come up to keep the Feast of Tabernacles.
20 In that day “HOLINESS TO THE LORD” shall be engraved on the bells of the horses. The pots in the LORD’s house shall be like the bowls before the altar. 21 Yes, every pot in Jerusalem and Judah shall be holiness to the LORD of hosts. Everyone who sacrifices shall come and take them and cook in them. In that day there shall no longer be a Canaanite in the house of the LORD of hosts.

So who are the mortals in the millennial kingdom? They are believing saints who did not perish and did not worship or take the mark of the beast. They are the soul survivors of the tribulation.


They are survivors of the nations that need regular discipline, but I still don't get your proof that they are necessarily believers, they seem like unbelievers to me.

DurbanDude
Dec 3rd 2008, 06:46 PM
dizzy , if you read Rev 20 we would end up with a ridiculous situation that those tribulation saints that manage to be martyred during the tribulation will have eternal life and resurrection bodies, but those that manage to survive the tribulation will be doomed to mortality. The left behind movies should show tribulation saints desperately trying to get martyred quickly in case they miss the resurrection of Rev 20:4 and are doomed to mortality.:hmm:



20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

third hero
Dec 3rd 2008, 07:33 PM
Hi ThirdHero,
I gave the above verses from revelation 6:15-17 to show who is able to stand when it comes to the wrath of God being poured out on the earth.

Ezekiel 9 was just an example of those who are sealed are protected by God, nothing else, I know this has nothing to do with the end times.

I know the kings of the earth do not know when the Lord returns, what is said is they know who it is that is bringing the wrath upon them.

Revelation 6:15-17
15Then the kings of the earth, the princes, the generals, the rich, the mighty, and every slave and every free man hid in caves and among the rocks of the mountains. 16They called to the mountains and the rocks, "Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! 17For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can stand?"
I also said that a question is asked. Who is able to stand (survive) the wrath of God? The 144,000 are able to survive for they have been sealed by God in their foreheads.

I know the people in chapter 6 do not see the Lord returning in the air. Why? This is only the beginning of the tribulation period, the people will see the Lord return at the end of thegreat tribulation in Revelation 19.

How is chapter 6 the beginning of the Great Tribulation when according to Lord Jesus, that does not happen until Jerusalem is attacked by Satan and the armies of the Beast? This does not happen until chapter 12, which is when the seventh trumpet is blown.

Now I do not understand what you believe is the correlation between the seven seals, the seven trumpets and the seven vials, but I am here to tell you that the model that mashes them altogether is completely wrong. As written in Revelation 8:1, the seven angels aren't even given their trumpets until AFTER the seventh seal is broken, which happens AFTER the sixth seal, which is when the 144,000 are sealed. Therefore, the seventh trumpet, which is the point when the Lord will have the Great Tribulation begin, as outlined in chapter 12, can not happen at chapter 6, since the angels can not even blow, let alone take posession of the trumpets until after the 144,000 are sealed.

Also, since we know that the Great Tribulation can not happen at chapter 6, we have to see what exactly is going on when that sign happens. Other than the mountains shaking and th islands shaking, the only other significant thing that happens is that the 144,000 are sealed. No Great Tribulation, no rapture, no return, just trhe sealing of the 144,000 male virgins and the announcement of those who come out of the Great Tribulation. This is what Revelation 6-7 actually says. The rest is assumptions, and can not be used to create interpretation, especially in Revelation.


During our lives we go through many trials and tribulations that test our faith. Some tribulations a Christian goes through may turn them away from their faith and they turn their backs on the Lord. Some the tribulations we go through will bring us closer to the Lord and our faith grows stronger. So the tribulation we go through is a testing of our faith and this testing helps us to grow as Christians.

My point is this. The original disciples had to face death, and all of them embraced it, with only one out of the original 12 dying of natural causes. The rest were martyred. Their tribulation tested not only their faith, but their resolve. Even Lord Jesus himself was tested unto death, and we all know how that turned out. Jesus taught the disciples that the students are not above their master, and as pupils of Lord Jesus, we are not above our master. If He had to face death and embrace it, then we ought to expect the same.


Now concerning the hour of trial that comes on the whole world the church will not be here as I said. The word of God is clear on this point. As I said earlier there are two groups of people spoken of in Revelation 3:10, let’s have a look.

Revelation 3:10
10 Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trialwhich shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.
The two groups we have are those who are kept from the hour of trial (the church), and those who go through the hour of trial (tribulation) the wicked.

ONe little problem with this verse. It applied to the church at Philadelphia. If you read the previous verses, you will quickly realize that the church at Philadelphia was suffering tribulation that is likened to the Great Tribulation, and since they have kept their resolve, even as they faced death, Jesus promised them that they will not be around, when God wil try the world. Where is the church at Philadelphia today? In heaven. Therefore, prophecy fulfilled, and it still has nothing to do with the rest of the church going through Great Tribulation.


1 Thessalonians 3:12-13

12 And may the Lord make you increase and abound in love to one another and to all, just as we do to you, 13 so that He may establish your hearts blameless in holiness before our God and Father at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all His saints.

This is a true statement but it also tells us that the Lord returns with the church saints and the tribulation saints. Have a look at the end of verse 13 it says at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all His saints. Now we have established that let’s look mat Revelation 19

It only says, "all of His saints". It does not specify. For the specification as to whom encompasses the "all of His saints", we have to look at the next chapter, preferably, verses 13-18 of chapter 4. There we have the saints that come with Him being those who were "sleeping". Then, at His return, we who remain until He comes will be transformed, and are raised to the air to meet with Him. This happens at one event, and is not a separate, secret event. There is only one point when the people of God are raptured, which according to 4:15, does NOT happen until the dead in Christ rise from their graves, which happens solely at the point when He returns to this earth.

My point? There is no "church" saints that are raptured before His return.


I have bolded verses 13,14 it tells us of the sacrificial lamb who is the Word of God. It tells us those who have been cleaned in His blood and are clothed in fine linen, white and clean. They have been washed in the blood of the Lamb. These are the armies of the Lord, the church, the tribulation saints and the Holy angels. These three groups return with the Lord. This is not an assumption it is a fact.

Ths blued portions show the points of your assumptions, based on the Left Behind series. They are not facts, and should not be used as Bible fact when they are not. Like I have said, even though I believe that the Tribulation saints will be in the number of the Lord's armies that will slaughter the Beast's armies, I will not be so bold as to say, "yes, this is a fact", when I do not have the evidence to back it up. All Revelation 19:11-16 prove is that the saints are with Him, riding white horses. that is a fact.


Zechariah 14:16
16</SPAN> And it shall come to pass that everyone who is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the Feast of Tabernacles.
Which part of all the nations do you not understand all the nations go up against Jerusalem the wicked are destroyed.
Zechariah 14:1-3
1</SPAN> Behold, the day of the LORD is coming,
And your spoil will be divided in your midst.
2 For I will gather all the nations to battle against Jerusalem;
The city shall be taken,
The houses rifled,
And the women ravished.
Half of the city shall go into captivity,
But the remnant of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
3 Then the LORD will go forth
And fight against those nations,
As He fights in the day of battle.
4</SPAN> And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives,
Which faces Jerusalem on the east.
And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two,
From east to west,
Makinga very large valley;
Half of the mountain shall move toward the north
And half of it toward the south.
5 Then you shall flee through My mountain valley,
For the mountain valley shall reach to Azal.
Yes, you shall flee
As you fled from the earthquake
In the days of Uzziah king of Judah.

Thus the LORD my God will come, (just thought I would highlight the saints coming with the Lord)
And all the saints with You.
6 It shall come to pass in that day
That there will be no light;
The lights will diminish.
You have no scripture to support your theory that the wicked that are left over from the tribulation period go into the millennial kingdom.
Revelation 16:12-16
12</SPAN> Then the sixth angel poured out his bowl on the great river Euphrates, and its water was dried up, so that the way of the kings from the east might be prepared. 13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs coming out of the mouth of the dragon, out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet. 14 For they are spirits of demons, performing signs, which go out to the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
15 “Behold, I am coming as a thief. Blessed is he who watches, and keeps his garments, lest he walk naked and they see his shame.”
16 And they gathered them together to the place called in Hebrew, Armageddon
Revelation 16 tells us that the kings of the whole earth go out to battle at Armageddon, which means the peoples of every nation go up in battle against Jerusalem. So all the wicked of the earth go up against Jerusalem and are destroyed by the Word that proceeds out of the Lord’s mouth. That only leaves the believing Jews and those believers from all the nations left, they are not destroyed in the battle.
Yes those who did not take the mark of the beast or lose their heads are retrieved by the Lord’s angels and gathered to the Lord. They are gathered to the Lord in their mortal bodies and they go into the millennial kingdom. So the Jews who survived will lead the nations to their God

Did you stop reading Zechariah at 14:16? Well, check out verse 18.

And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that [have] no [rain]; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

Notice who is required to go to Jerusalem when the Lord establishes His Kingdom in Jerusalem? The heathen. What is the definition of that term?

heathen - /ˈhihttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/luna/thinsp.pngðən/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[hee-thhttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/luna/thinsp.pnguhhttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/luna/thinsp.pngn] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation noun, plural -thens, -then, adjective
–noun 1.an unconverted individual of a people that do not acknowledge the God of the Bible; a person who is neither a Jew, Christian, nor Muslim; pagan. 2.an irreligious, uncultured, or uncivilized person.-Dictionary.com (actually www.dictionary,reference.com/browse/heathen (http://www.dictionary,reference.com/browse/heathen))

A believer can not be one od the survivors who are ruled by Lord Jesus, because by definition, a believer can not be a heathen.







Therefore, the "surviving" saints that underwent the Great tribulation can not be the ones that the Lord rules over, as Zechariah 14:18 clearly states. On top of that, chapter 7 tells us that every saint that come out of the Great Tribulation are glorified, and unlike chapter 20:4, the description of the tribulation saints in chapter 7 are not distinguished by means of whether they died or not. The only reference we have to who they are is the fact that all of them came out of the Great Tribulation, which leads me to conclude that those who survive the Great Tribulation, just like what 1 thessalonians 4 and 1 Corinthians 15 tells us, are transformed into incorruptible bodies, and join those who were sleeping.

They do not go on as being mortals. They become immortal. Therefore, the surviving Believers are NOT the ones who go into the Millennium as mortals.

quiet dove
Dec 3rd 2008, 08:01 PM
dizzy , if you read Rev 20 we would end up with a ridiculous situation that those tribulation saints that manage to be martyred during the tribulation will have eternal life and resurrection bodies, but those that manage to survive the tribulation will be doomed to mortality. The left behind movies should show tribulation saints desperately trying to get martyred quickly in case they miss the resurrection of Rev 20:4 and are doomed to mortality.:hmm:

They are not doomed to morality for eternity.

DurbanDude
Dec 3rd 2008, 09:06 PM
They are not doomed to morality for eternity.

QD, so are you saying that the saints who survive the tribulation will miss out on the first resurrection, live out their mortal lives and then be resurrected to eternal life at the end of the millenium if they have been obedient?

This isn't a loaded question , just wanting to understand your belief here.

quiet dove
Dec 3rd 2008, 11:27 PM
QD, so are you saying that the saints who survive the tribulation will miss out on the first resurrection, live out their mortal lives and then be resurrected to eternal life at the end of the millenium if they have been obedient?

This isn't a loaded question , just wanting to understand your belief here.

Pretty much yes. I believe that Rev 20:11 is after the Millennium and those of the wicked: also described as "the rest" from Rev 20:5, and all wicked from the beginning, and the wicked and righteous that lived during the Millennium - will be judged at the GWTJ of Rev 20:11. Those in the Book of Life, those washed by the blood of the Lamb, will receive eternal life. And all those who refused Jesus will be the ones who suffer the second death.

RANGER65
Dec 4th 2008, 02:46 AM
It is impairitive that you identify the players that are and are not on the board chapter by chapter. The church is out of the book at the 4th chapter of Revelations. Much of Revelations deals only with the Jewish people not the Americans located in Texas or Florida or any other North American Cities or mountains like Mt. Meggido, the geographical stage should bare this out. Thanks for the opportunity to share. Blessings.

wpm
Dec 4th 2008, 04:44 AM
It is impairitive that you identify the players that are and are not on the board chapter by chapter. The church is out of the book at the 4th chapter of Revelations. Much of Revelations deals only with the Jewish people not the Americans located in Texas or Florida or any other North American Cities or mountains like Mt. Meggido, the geographical stage should bare this out. Thanks for the opportunity to share. Blessings.

Where do you see that in the 4th chapter?

third hero
Dec 4th 2008, 05:39 AM
It is impairitive that you identify the players that are and are not on the board chapter by chapter. The church is out of the book at the 4th chapter of Revelations. Much of Revelations deals only with the Jewish people not the Americans located in Texas or Florida or any other North American Cities or mountains like Mt. Meggido, the geographical stage should bare this out. Thanks for the opportunity to share. Blessings.

After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; Revelation 7:9

And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Revelation 7:14

Well, it looks like the church is mentioned here as a group from all nations that come out of Great Tribulation.

And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. Revelation 12:17.

Here, we see the church being attacked by Satan, which coincidently is after Satan attacks the Jews.

There are other places in Revelation as well that has the church littered in there, including chapters 13, 14, 15, 16, 19, 20, 21, and 22. Just because you do not see the word "church" there does not negate the probability of the church actually being in this book.

Besides, do you know what the word church means?

www.dictionary.reference.com/browse/church (http://www.dictionary.reference.com/browse/church)
church   /tʃɜrtʃ/ Show Spelled Pronunciation http://cache.lexico.com/g/d/dictionary_questionbutton_default.gif (http://dictionary.reference.com/help/luna/IPA_pron_key.html) [church] Show IPA Pronunciation http://cache.lexico.com/g/d/dictionary_questionbutton_default.gif (http://dictionary.reference.com/help/luna/IPA_pron_key.html)

–noun 1.a building for public Christian worship.2.public worship of God or a religious service in such a building: to attend church regularly. 3.(sometimes initial capital letterhttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/luna/thinsp.png) the whole body of Christian believers; Christendom.4.(sometimes initial capital letterhttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/luna/thinsp.png) any division of this body professing the same creed and acknowledging the same ecclesiastical authority; a Christian denomination: the Methodist Church. 5.that part of the whole Christian body, or of a particular denomination, belonging to the same city, country, nation, etc.6.a body of Christians worshipping in a particular building or constituting one congregation: She is a member of this church. 7.ecclesiastical organization, power, and affairs, as distinguished from the state: separation of church and state; The missionary went wherever the church sent him. 8.the clergy and religious officials of a Christian denomination.9.the Christian faith: a return of intellectuals to the church. 10.(initial capital letterhttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/luna/thinsp.png) the Christian Church before the Reformation.11.(initial capital letterhttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/luna/thinsp.png) the Roman Catholic Church.12.the clerical profession or calling: After much study and contemplation, he was prepared to enter the church. 13.a place of public worship of a non-Christian religion.14.any non-Christian religious society, organization, or congregation: the Jewish church. –verb (used with object) 15.to conduct or bring to church, esp. for special services.16.South Midland and Southern U.S. to subject to church discipline.17.to perform a church service of thanksgiving for (a woman after childbirth).
Now, I have given you 17 different definitions. Which one of them represents the individual believer? Answer? None.

The most common definition of the word church is the congregation of believers. And so, the word church is not the only word in the bible that represents the believers. the term "saint" has been used, and I know that that word is heavily used in Revelation, and that word makes the believers very much a part of the overall story in Revelation.

DurbanDude
Dec 4th 2008, 06:38 AM
Pretty much yes. I believe that Rev 20:11 is after the Millennium and those of the wicked: also described as "the rest" from Rev 20:5, and all wicked from the beginning, and the wicked and righteous that lived during the Millennium - will be judged at the GWTJ of Rev 20:11. Those in the Book of Life, those washed by the blood of the Lamb, will receive eternal life. And all those who refused Jesus will be the ones who suffer the second death.


I never heard of this before, interesting viewpoint!

DIZZY
Dec 4th 2008, 12:53 PM
QD, so are you saying that the saints who survive the tribulation will miss out on the first resurrection, live out their mortal lives and then be resurrected to eternal life at the end of the millenium if they have been obedient?

This isn't a loaded question , just wanting to understand your belief here.

The first resurrection consists of all the righteous saints of all ages.

1. Church sainst
2. Tribulation saints
3. Old Testament saints
4. Millennial saints

The second resurrection which is called the second death consists of the wicked of all ages, which will happen at the end of the Millennium.

DurbanDude
Dec 4th 2008, 01:26 PM
The first resurrection consists of all the righteous saints of all ages.

1. Church sainst
2. Tribulation saints
3. Old Testament saints
4. Millennial saints

The second resurrection which is called the second death consists of the wicked of all ages, which will happen at the end of the Millennium.

That's what I believe :D Full agreement here

But you did say this in an earlier post:



Those that reign with Christ, reign over the saints who survive the tribulation period. When the Lord returns to Jerusalem there is believing saints from every nation on the earth. The Lord destroys the wicked which leaves only believers, these saints go up to worship the Lord and keep the Feast of Tabernacles


Have you changed your mind?

John146
Dec 4th 2008, 03:56 PM
The first resurrection consists of all the righteous saints of all ages.

1. Church sainst
2. Tribulation saints
3. Old Testament saints
4. Millennial saintsHmmm. Aren't you pre-trib, premil? When do you believe the first resurrection occurs in relation to the second coming of Christ?

John146
Dec 4th 2008, 03:58 PM
That's what I believe :D Full agreement hereAre you sure about that? You believe millennial saints will be part of the first resurrection? How can that be when you believe the first resurrection occurs at the beginning of the millennium?

DurbanDude
Dec 4th 2008, 04:42 PM
Are you sure about that? You believe millennial saints will be part of the first resurrection? How can that be when you believe the first resurrection occurs at the beginning of the millennium?

I believe that ALL the saints will be resurrected at the beginning of the millenium , and live in the camp of the saints in the beloved city for 1000 years. That is why I'm always agreeing with you when you show verses about the separation at the 2nd coming. There will be a separation of the godly who are resurrected and the ungodly whose destiny is the lake of fire. The godly will be ruling and reigning with Christ and the ungodly will be living under a blessed and disciplined rule of the iron rod until their true nature is revealed when Satan deceives them all.

I feel like I'm continuously repeating myself :B

DurbanDude
Dec 4th 2008, 04:51 PM
Scripture is clear. The survivors are the heathen. And it makes sense, since they are also mentioned in Ezekiel 39.

So will I make my holy name known in the midst of my people Israel; and I will not [let them] pollute my holy name any more: and the heathen shall know that I [am] the LORD, the Holy One in Israel. -Ezekiel 39:7

Therefore, It is NOT the righteous who survive the Great Tribulation, but the heathen that are spared their lives.

I never noticed this about "the heathen" before, :idea: . I just kept reading "the nations", but there it is in black and white. Good point.

John146
Dec 4th 2008, 05:10 PM
I believe that ALL the saints will be resurrected at the beginning of the millenium , and live in the camp of the saints in the beloved city for 1000 years. That is why I'm always agreeing with you when you show verses about the separation at the 2nd coming. There will be a separation of the godly who are resurrected and the ungodly whose destiny is the lake of fire. The godly will be ruling and reigning with Christ and the ungodly will be living under a blessed and disciplined rule of the iron rod until their true nature is revealed when Satan deceives them all.

I feel like I'm continuously repeating myself :BYou don't seem to realize that your view is rather unique. Until now, you hadn't made yourself clear that you don't believe that anyone can be saved during the supposed future millennium and the ungodly who are allowed to survive the second coming just have their eternal destinies delayed for 1,000 years. Which I find to be a very odd interpretation. Perhaps you can show me this delay somewhere in Matthew 25:31-46? Most premils do not see it that way and believe that people can be saved during that supposed time period.

wpm
Dec 4th 2008, 06:08 PM
I never noticed this about "the heathen" before, :idea: . I just kept reading "the nations", but there it is in black and white. Good point.

Is Ezekiel 40-48 past, present or future? Which age is it in?

DurbanDude
Dec 4th 2008, 07:54 PM
You don't seem to realize that your view is rather unique. Until now, you hadn't made yourself clear that you don't believe that anyone can be saved during the supposed future millennium and the ungodly who are allowed to survive the second coming just have their eternal destinies delayed for 1,000 years. Which I find to be a very odd interpretation. Perhaps you can show me this delay somewhere in Matthew 25:31-46? Most premils do not see it that way and believe that people can be saved during that supposed time period.

I am openly a post-trib pre-mill so I understand that you made assumptions about my beliefs. That's possibly why I was getting a bit frustrated in another thread because I kept being misunderstood. No worries mate.;)

The delay is mentioned in Rev 19.

Matthew 25 has parables, these parables are an encouragement to stay spiritually ready and not at all an indication of timing. If you are ready you will have a good destiny, if not, a bad destiny. These concepts are way more important to us believers than the order of the end-times. If I wanted to get a sense of timing I could rather use the parable of the virgins , where the wise virgins are already at the marriage, and only afterwards do the foolish virgins get their destiny.

So if we want to use parables as literal interpretations then I could say that Matthew 25:1-13 is telling us that first the wise virgins (the saved) will receive their destiny , and then only "afterwards" (v11) will the foolish ones receive their destiny, showing a delay.

But I don't want to argue like that, I prefer to take parables about spiritual concepts as just that (all 3 parables of Matt 25) , and precise descriptions of the future war and destiny of Israel (OT prophecies) as literal. On the other hand you have consistently wanted to get absolutes from parables full of symbolism , and symbolism from OT prophecies without symbolism; that describe a specific series of events.

DurbanDude
Dec 4th 2008, 08:03 PM
Is Ezekiel 40-48 past, present or future? Which age is it in?

I was just skimming through this , actually not sure ,where would you place it?

wpm
Dec 4th 2008, 08:09 PM
I am openly a post-trib pre-mill so I understand that you made assumptions about my beliefs. That's possibly why I was getting a bit frustrated in another thread because I kept being misunderstood. No worries mate.;)

The delay is mentioned in Rev 19.

Matthew 25 has parables, these parables are an encouragement to stay spiritually ready and not at all an indication of timing. If you are ready you will have a good destiny, if not, a bad destiny. These concepts are way more important to us believers than the order of the end-times. If I wanted to get a sense of timing I could rather use the parable of the virgins , where the wise virgins are already at the marriage, and only afterwards do the foolish virgins get their destiny.

So if we want to use parables as literal interpretations then I could say that Matthew 25:1-13 is telling us that first the wise virgins (the saved) will receive their destiny , and then only "afterwards" (v11) will the foolish ones receive their destiny, showing a delay.

But I don't want to argue like that, I prefer to take parables about spiritual concepts as just that (all 3 parables of Matt 25) , and precise descriptions of the future war and destiny of Israel (OT prophecies) as literal. On the other hand you have consistently wanted to get absolutes from parables full of symbolism , and symbolism from OT prophecies without symbolism; that describe a specific series of events.

But you take one highly symbolic passage in the most obscure book in the Bible and create a whole new age that is unknown to the rest of Scripture. I don't see any other passage in the whole of the Bible that correlates with Rev 20 from a Premil point of view. There is no binding of Satan, there is no uprising of the wicked in their billion to surround Jesus and the saints 1,000 yrs after Jesus destroys the wicked, there are no 2 resurrections/judgments separated by 1,000 yrs. On top of this, there is no period of peace and perfection described anywhere in them.

DurbanDude
Dec 4th 2008, 09:02 PM
But you take one highly symbolic passage in the most obscure book in the Bible and create a whole new age that is unknown to the rest of Scripture. I don't see any other passage in the whole of the Bible that correlates with Rev 20 from a Premil point of view. There is no binding of Satan, there is no uprising of the wicked in their billion to surround Jesus and the saints 1,000 yrs after Jesus destroys the wicked, there are no 2 resurrections/judgments separated by 1,000 yrs. On top of this, there is no period of peace and perfection described anywhere in them.

wpm , I have stated my supporting scripture many times, we both agree that all the saved will be resurrected at the second coming,we have no dispute there (I hope!). So hopefully we have one absolute we both agree on and I don't have to prove this with verses.

There are many verses in the OT testament and also Rev 19 about a second coming event. Now you may not agree that the verses describe a second coming event and you may interpret them as somehow "spiritually fulfilled in this current age" but you can't say that I have no biblical evidence when the biblical evidence is clear, you just interpret it differently.

These verses show either that certain parts of certain regions survive the wrath of the second coming, or that nations survive this wrath , or that survivors are mortal and not immortal, or that the Messiah rules these nations with an iron rod, depending on which verse you look at. The period of peace is consistent with most of these verses.

So we have the second coming , the resurrection , the survival of the current earth , then we have other verses (Isaiah 65, 2 Peter 3) that additionally mention a completely New Earth too.

So without using Revelation at all , and with a leaning to literal interpretation of many verses (rather than seeing the Messianic period as symbolic) there is a description of a period where the Messiah rules on earth, the saints in the city are blessed , the earth is at peace, the resurrected saints are ruling with Christ.

Yes Rev 20 adds some details but the basic concepts of the millenium are all there in the OT and NT already.

Your version of Satan being bound does not make any sense to me for a number of reasons. I already showed you verses that prove that Satan has a current influence in the world therefore the concept of him being currently "sealed in the bottomless pit" seems strange. Also Rev 12 says that Satan has a place in heaven and then loses his place in heaven and is cast down to earth for a short period of great wrath (3.5 years). How can Satan be currently in the bottomless pit if Rev 12 says Satan is in heaven? Or maybe cast to earth for a short period of great wrath? Neither sounds like being in a bottomless pit to me.

The scripturally supported view of the future of earth at peace without war fits in better with the concept of Satan being bound, than your view that the gospel can now go to the gentiles therefore this proves Satan is bound.

John146
Dec 4th 2008, 09:30 PM
I am openly a post-trib pre-mill so I understand that you made assumptions about my beliefs. That's possibly why I was getting a bit frustrated in another thread because I kept being misunderstood. No worries mate.;)

The delay is mentioned in Rev 19. It is? Where?


Matthew 25 has parables, these parables are an encouragement to stay spiritually ready and not at all an indication of timing.What? Just because it's a parable doesn't mean it can't contain anything about the timing of events. It specifically mentions the coming of Christ. It clearly implies that the judgment occurs when He returns. It also indicates that eternal sentences are given out at that time. There is not even a hint of a thousand year time period taking place between His coming and the judgment. I don't buy this idea that the parable of Matthew 25:31-46 doesn't give any indication of timing.


If you are ready you will have a good destiny, if not, a bad destiny. These concepts are way more important to us believers than the order of the end-times. If I wanted to get a sense of timing I could rather use the parable of the virgins , where the wise virgins are already at the marriage, and only afterwards do the foolish virgins get their destiny. Oh, so now you're saying you can get a sense of timing from a parable? Where is the consistency in your view?


So if we want to use parables as literal interpretations then I could say that Matthew 25:1-13 is telling us that first the wise virgins (the saved) will receive their destiny , and then only "afterwards" (v11) will the foolish ones receive their destiny, showing a delay.

But I don't want to argue like that, I prefer to take parables about spiritual concepts as just that (all 3 parables of Matt 25) , and precise descriptions of the future war and destiny of Israel (OT prophecies) as literal. On the other hand you have consistently wanted to get absolutes from parables full of symbolism , and symbolism from OT prophecies without symbolism; that describe a specific series of events.Yes, you can say Matthew 25:31-46 is a parable and contains some symbolism but it mentions very specific things. Do you think that Matthew 25:31 does not literally mention the second coming of Christ with His angels? Is the kingdom prepared for us from the foundation of the world not a real kingdom? Is the everlasting punishment and eternal life that are mentioned in Matthew 25:46 not to be taken literally?

And you have to be kidding me if you think that OT prophecies are always meant to be taken literally. OT prophecies contain a good deal of symbolism as well. Unless you think Jesus is a literal branch, root, lamb or lion. I suppose you don't accept Jesus' explanation of Malachi 4:5-6 that John the Baptist fulfilled that prophecy? Perhaps you believe that Zechariah 13:7 is speaking of a literal shepherd and literal sheep?

DurbanDude
Dec 4th 2008, 10:17 PM
Do you genuinely believe that I think all OT prophecies have to be taken literally?

For the record I said:



symbolism from OT prophecies without symbolism; that describe a specific series of events.


You regard certain OT prophecies that have no symbolism as symbolic. Where there is no symbolism we have to consider that the prophecy could be literally interpreted. Like Zechariah 14 , this is a very literal book.

Bick
Dec 5th 2008, 01:05 AM
Fellow students of the Scriptures: John tells us in Rev.1:10 that he was 'in spirit in the Lord's day (the day of the Lord).

'The Lord's day' is the Greek way for saying the 'day of the Lord', but with the emphasis on 'day' for John, 'in spirit' was in that day.

Revelation is still all future. The three main subjects are Israel, the nations and the earth. John was, of course, 'in heaven' as well as 'on earth' in his vision.

The seven ecclesias are called-out groups of Israelites at the various places, in the time of John's vision.

The church/body of Christ is not a subject in Revelation.

Making Revelation start with John's writing, results in confusion and disharmony, particularly with Paul's epistles.

It is Hebrew in its character.
There are 285 references to the Old Testament. More than three times as many as Matthew, and nearly three times as many as the Epistle to the Hebrews.

wpm
Dec 5th 2008, 06:00 AM
wpm , I have stated my supporting scripture many times, we both agree that all the saved will be resurrected at the second coming,we have no dispute there (I hope!). So hopefully we have one absolute we both agree on and I don't have to prove this with verses.

There are many verses in the OT testament and also Rev 19 about a second coming event. Now you may not agree that the verses describe a second coming event and you may interpret them as somehow "spiritually fulfilled in this current age" but you can't say that I have no biblical evidence when the biblical evidence is clear, you just interpret it differently.

These verses show either that certain parts of certain regions survive the wrath of the second coming, or that nations survive this wrath , or that survivors are mortal and not immortal, or that the Messiah rules these nations with an iron rod, depending on which verse you look at. The period of peace is consistent with most of these verses.

So we have the second coming , the resurrection , the survival of the current earth , then we have other verses (Isaiah 65, 2 Peter 3) that additionally mention a completely New Earth too.

So without using Revelation at all , and with a leaning to literal interpretation of many verses (rather than seeing the Messianic period as symbolic) there is a description of a period where the Messiah rules on earth, the saints in the city are blessed , the earth is at peace, the resurrected saints are ruling with Christ.

Yes Rev 20 adds some details but the basic concepts of the millenium are all there in the OT and NT already.



I beg to disagree. Once again, you fail to address my argument or counteract my supposition with any evidence. You rather counter with the retort: "Rev 20 adds some details but the basic concepts of the millennium" as if there are merely some minor modifications to a doctrine that is strewn throughout the Word, when in fact there is no mention of any of the main Premil fundamentals anywhere in the Bible. The Premil take on Rev 20 is enormous. It introduces major beliefs that are unknown to previous Scripture. All the points I previously presented prove this. I can only assume from your silence on this that this is a reluctant admission that my argument carries weight. Please read it again.

The detail Premil attributes to Rev 20 are new doctrines totally unknown to the rest of Scripture. If I am wrong please corroborate these new doctrines. For example, show me a comparison between Rev 20 and Zech 14, from begging to end. Likewise, Isa 2, and all the rest of your supposed supporting passages. Please, if your claims are going to be accepted we want to see your thinking on Rev 20 corroborated. Show me this 1,000 yrs detail in the rest of the NT. Here are some of the main Premil fundamentals that are innovative and which cannot be found anywhere else in Scripture in my opinion.

1. Where exactly in Revelation 20 or anywhere else does it say that Christ will reign on earth for 1,000 years?

2. What Scripture, if any, do you consider definitely corroborates the Premillennial interpretation of Revelation 20 that Satan will be bound for a time-span of 1000 years after the Second Advent then released for a "little season" then destroyed?

3. What Scripture, if any, do you consider definitely corroborates the Premillennial interpretation of Revelation 20 that there is an uprising of the wicked in their billions to surround Jesus and the saints 1,000 yrs after Jesus destroys the wicked?

4. What Scripture, if any, do you consider definitely corroborates the Premillennial interpretation of Revelation 20 that there are two distinct future judgement days (that will see all mankind stand before Christ to give account for their lives) separated by a literal 1000 years?

5. What Scripture, if any, do you consider definitely corroborates the Premillennial interpretation of Revelation 20 that there are two distinct future physical resurrections (the first for the righteous, the second for the wicked) separated by a literal 1000 years?

6. Where does it say that the resurection of the just is the actual first resurrection?

wpm
Dec 5th 2008, 06:16 AM
Your version of Satan being bound does not make any sense to me for a number of reasons. I already showed you verses that prove that Satan has a current influence in the world therefore the concept of him being currently "sealed in the bottomless pit" seems strange. Also Rev 12 says that Satan has a place in heaven and then loses his place in heaven and is cast down to earth for a short period of great wrath (3.5 years). How can Satan be currently in the bottomless pit if Rev 12 says Satan is in heaven? Or maybe cast to earth for a short period of great wrath? Neither sounds like being in a bottomless pit to me.

The scripturally supported view of the future of earth at peace without war fits in better with the concept of Satan being bound, than your view that the gospel can now go to the gentiles therefore this proves Satan is bound.

It mightn't make sense to a hyper-literalist mindset but Amils interpret Rev 20 in its symbolic context and with other explicit Scripture. I have shown you several unaddressed passages that prove the demonic kingdom is currently in chains and imprisoned in the abyss. You sidestepped them all. It is not satisfactory to ignore a counter argument and then dismiss it without addressing the evidence. You are dodging passage after passge that reinforce the Amil belief, and countering it with your own personal opinion. This is unacceptable.

Revelation 12 confirms that this victorious scene (described in Revelation 20) relates to Christ’s eternal victory at the Cross and His glorious ascent to the throne. A careful comparison of both passages confirms that they closely parallel and perfectly correlate with each other. Revelation 12:9-13 says, speaking of the tremendous ramifications that Calvary had upon Satan, “the great dragon ‘was cast out’ (or ballo Strong’s 906), that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out (or ballo Strong’s 906) into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down (or ballo Strong’s 906), which accused them before our God day and night. And they (the Church of Jesus Christ) overcame him (the devil) by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.”

Both passages chart the casting down of Satan from heaven in order to facilitate the global spread of the Gospel to the previously blinded nations. The term “cast out” is taken from the Greek word ballo meaning to eject, drive out or send away. This word gives us some idea of the deep lasting work that was wrought upon Satan as a result of the cross. This reading seems to strongly support the idea that the accusing place that Satan once held before Calvary has now been totally destroyed and his area of influence carefully restricted. Satan was effectively unseated from his former global deception over the Gentiles, allowing the Gospel to spread forth. Interestingly, this is the exact same word as is used in Revelation 20:3 to describe the restriction placed upon Satan from the cross. Revelation 20:3 says, “he (Christ) laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, and cast him into the abyss.”This word is also translated from the Greek word ballo (Strong’s 906).

In this reading we have an explicit outline of the nature and standing of the devil prior to his eviction from his accusing seat in heaven. At that time, he “accused” the elect of God in heaven “before our God day and night.” The accused here were overwhelmingly the Israeli believers – the only country privileged on a national scale with the Gospel. On earth, the devil ruled the Gentile nations unchallenged, deceiving “the whole world” (Revelation 12:9). The Gospel influence was completely curtailed among the nations by “the god of this world” (who is Satan) who “blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them” (2 Corinthians 4:4). The door of opportunity was tightly closed to the Gentile people. The reversal of this situation could not occur until Christ was first “caught up unto God, and to his throne” at the resurrection (Revelation 12:5). The above reading therefore confirms the powerful fulfilment and exact timing of Satan’s spiritual curtailment.

Please address my previous passages also. Matthew 12:22-29 is a clear one that shhows the binding of Satan during the earthly ministry of Christ, “Then was brought unto him one possessed with a devil, blind, and dumb: and he healed him, insomuch that the blind and dumb both spake and saw. And all the people were amazed, and said, Is not this the son of David? But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, This fellow doth not cast out devils, but by Beelzebub the prince of the devils. And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand: And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand? And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your children cast them out? therefore they shall be your judges. But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you. Or else how can one enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind (or) deo(Strong’s 1210) the strong man? And then he will spoil his house.”

The Lord identifies the casting out of devils and the deliverance of souls with the binding of the strong man. He in turn presents this as proof that Satan is curbed through the presence and victorious function of the kingdom of God. Christ was here specifically referring to Satan (the strong man) and his demonic kingdom, and expressly connects his binding with the manifestation of the kingdom of God during His earthly ministry. The subjugating of devils was proof of the spiritual restraint of the evil one. Satan could not prevent this. Satan could not overcome those who had been rescued by Christ.

Jude supports the view of a current binding of the whole kingdom of darkness, in v 6, when he says,“the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting desmois (Strong’s 1199) (or) chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.”

Jude like John in Revelation 20:1 uses literal terminologies to in some way impress the restricted spiritual condition of Satan and the kingdom of darkness since the Cross. The literalist would do well to remember that Satan and his emissaries are spiritual-beings. Angels and demons are spiritual creations, not physical mortal creatures. It is only logical then to recognize that the binding of spiritual-beings must of necessity be executed in a spiritual way not a literal physical way, as Premils argue. After all, the same God that made them spiritual must then spiritually bind them in order to curb their influence.

2 Peter 2:4 closely correlates with Jude v6, saying, “God spared not the angels that sinned, but tartaroo (or) ‘cast them down to hell’, and delivered them seiraís (or) ‘into chains’ of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment.”

This passage is an obvious mirror of Jude verse 6, describing the spiritual restrains that the whole demonic realm is currently subject to, up until the judgment. It is worth noting that this passage is the only place in Scripture where we find the Greek words tartaroo (Strong’s 5020) and seiraís (Strong’s 4577). The word tartaroo in the original does not refer to hell (Hades) but rather to the abyss. In fact, the Greek word tartaroo comes from tartaros which refers to the deepest part of the abyss. Moreover, the Greek word seiraís simply means bonds. This text powerfully confirms the Amillennial view that Satan’s demonic kingdom is already bound in the invisible spiritual realm of the abyss.

Revelation 9:11 tells us that this demonic pit “had a king over them, which is the angel of the abussos (or) abyss, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon.”

In piecing the apocalyptic jigsaw together we find that this dark spiritual dungeon currently has a king over it. This gives us insight into the fact that the abyss must be speaking of a kingdom. Moreover, that kingdom is imprisoned in its own darkness. The fact that there is a king currently ruling tells us that the abyss must contain a kingdom. The word kingdom means ‘king with a domain’. Its meaning includes the territory and the people over whom the King rules and exercises sovereign authority. The term also includes the legislation and laws that administrate that kingdom. The word employed in the New Testament for ‘kingdom’ is the Greek word basileia denoting ‘sovereignty, royal power, kingship and dominion’. A kingdom must therefore have (1) a king – a head, (2) a domain to rule over – subjects and territory, (3) a structure of administration – ethics, rules and laws which govern it.

I would genuinely appreciate it if you were to address these one by one.

DurbanDude
Dec 5th 2008, 01:02 PM
I beg to disagree. Once again, you fail to address my argument or counteract my supposition with any evidence. You rather counter with the retort: "Rev 20 adds some details but the basic concepts of the millennium" as if there are merely some minor modifications to a doctrine that is strewn throughout the Word, when in fact there is no mention of any of the main Premil fundamentals anywhere in the Bible. The Premil take on Rev 20 is enormous. It introduces major beliefs that are unknown to previous Scripture. All the points I previously presented prove this. I can only assume from your silence on this that this is a reluctant admission that my argument carries weight. Please read it again.

The detail Premil attributes to Rev 20 are new doctrines totally unknown to the rest of Scripture. If I am wrong please corroborate these new doctrines. For example, show me a comparison between Rev 20 and Zech 14, from begging to end. Likewise, Isa 2, and all the rest of your supposed supporting passages. Please, if your claims are going to be accepted we want to see your thinking on Rev 20 corroborated. Show me this 1,000 yrs detail in the rest of the NT. Here are some of the main Premil fundamentals that are innovative and which cannot be found anywhere else in Scripture in my opinion.

1. Where exactly in Revelation 20 or anywhere else does it say that Christ will reign on earth for 1,000 years?

2. What Scripture, if any, do you consider definitely corroborates the Premillennial interpretation of Revelation 20 that Satan will be bound for a time-span of 1000 years after the Second Advent then released for a "little season" then destroyed?

3. What Scripture, if any, do you consider definitely corroborates the Premillennial interpretation of Revelation 20 that there is an uprising of the wicked in their billions to surround Jesus and the saints 1,000 yrs after Jesus destroys the wicked?

4. What Scripture, if any, do you consider definitely corroborates the Premillennial interpretation of Revelation 20 that there are two distinct future judgement days (that will see all mankind stand before Christ to give account for their lives) separated by a literal 1000 years?

5. What Scripture, if any, do you consider definitely corroborates the Premillennial interpretation of Revelation 20 that there are two distinct future physical resurrections (the first for the righteous, the second for the wicked) separated by a literal 1000 years?

6. Where does it say that the resurection of the just is the actual first resurrection?

I don't see the need to have a corroboration about the literal 1000 years.

Daniel 9:27 refers to a 3.5 year period between the Messiah coming , and an end to sacrifice and offering. This was perfectly fulfilled by Jesus when He was crucified.
Are there any other OT prophecies that corroborated this prophecy about Jesus' ministry being 3.5 years long? Not any that I know, yet this was fulfilled.

Jeremiah was told about the seventy years of captivity in Babylon, this was not corroborated outside of Jeremiah, and yet came about. The bible says that Daniel understood from Jeremiah that there would be a literal 70 year period of captivity, this was not a vision given to Daniel, but Daniel's understanding from reading the book of Jeremiah. Daniel was happy to conclude about a 70 year literal period from reading just one book, so am I.

So to answer your questions 1 to 5, no there is no corroboration elsewhere of a specific 1000 year period being mentioned. But I do have corroboration that when a specific period is mentioned in prophecy it has been literally fulfilled without being corroborated by other books in the bible. I am happy with this principle , it's biblically proven that it isn't essential to have corroboration.

Are you aware of any verse in the bible when a specific period is prophesied about , and WAS NOT literally fulfilled? Can you definitely show me that the period was fulfilled in a symbolic manner or over a different period than originally prophesied? Let's see if precisely predicted periods in symbolic prophecies have a history of being fulfilled in an imprecise manner. Please justify why you say the millenium is being fulfilled, over a period greater than 2000 years so far, when Revelation 20 says it will be 1000 years long.

Like you , I believe in ONE GWT judgement, when all the deeds of men will be judged. Other judgements , eg the flood , the Babylonian destruction of the temple, the Roman destruction of Jerusalem and the temple, the judgement of the nations at the second coming, all of them can be proven to be judgments as well.

Question 6: the "first resurrection"
I've answered this already. You have to look at the context of the verses to understand what is meant. Jesus' resurrection is described as the first resurrection. Yet the righteous will be resurrected before the unrighteous. So to say that the resurrection of the righteous is the "first resurrection" is also accurate when comparing it to the resurrection of the unrighteous. We can't get fixated on a phrase but have to look at its meaning in context.

20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years

"This is" is a phrase referring to something else here. The most clear interpretation is that the phrase is referring to the coming to life of the martyred saints.

No resurrection of Christ or coming to life of anyone or anything else is mentioned here so in context to apply the phrase "first resurrection" to the resurrection of the martyrs is appropriate.

DurbanDude
Dec 5th 2008, 01:25 PM
It mightn't make sense to a hyper-literalist mindset but Amils interpret Rev 20 in its symbolic context and with other explicit Scripture. I have shown you several unaddressed passages that prove the demonic kingdom is currently in chains and imprisoned in the abyss. You sidestepped them all. It is not satisfactory to ignore a counter argument and then dismiss it without addressing the evidence. You are dodging passage after passge that reinforce the Amil belief, and countering it with your own personal opinion. This is unacceptable.

Revelation 12 confirms that this victorious scene (described in Revelation 20) relates to Christ’s eternal victory at the Cross and His glorious ascent to the throne. A careful comparison of both passages confirms that they closely parallel and perfectly correlate with each other. Revelation 12:9-13 says, speaking of the tremendous ramifications that Calvary had upon Satan, “the great dragon ‘was cast out’ (or ballo Strong’s 906), that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out (or ballo Strong’s 906) into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down (or ballo Strong’s 906), which accused them before our God day and night. And they (the Church of Jesus Christ) overcame him (the devil) by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.”

Both passages chart the casting down of Satan from heaven in order to facilitate the global spread of the Gospel to the previously blinded nations. The term “cast out” is taken from the Greek word ballo meaning to eject, drive out or send away. This word gives us some idea of the deep lasting work that was wrought upon Satan as a result of the cross. This reading seems to strongly support the idea that the accusing place that Satan once held before Calvary has now been totally destroyed and his area of influence carefully restricted. Satan was effectively unseated from his former global deception over the Gentiles, allowing the Gospel to spread forth. Interestingly, this is the exact same word as is used in Revelation 20:3 to describe the restriction placed upon Satan from the cross. Revelation 20:3 says, “he (Christ) laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, and cast him into the abyss.”This word is also translated from the Greek word ballo (Strong’s 906).

In this reading we have an explicit outline of the nature and standing of the devil prior to his eviction from his accusing seat in heaven. At that time, he “accused” the elect of God in heaven “before our God day and night.” The accused here were overwhelmingly the Israeli believers – the only country privileged on a national scale with the Gospel. On earth, the devil ruled the Gentile nations unchallenged, deceiving “the whole world” (Revelation 12:9). The Gospel influence was completely curtailed among the nations by “the god of this world” (who is Satan) who “blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them” (2 Corinthians 4:4). The door of opportunity was tightly closed to the Gentile people. The reversal of this situation could not occur until Christ was first “caught up unto God, and to his throne” at the resurrection (Revelation 12:5). The above reading therefore confirms the powerful fulfilment and exact timing of Satan’s spiritual curtailment.

Please address my previous passages also. Matthew 12:22-29 is a clear one that shhows the binding of Satan during the earthly ministry of Christ, “Then was brought unto him one possessed with a devil, blind, and dumb: and he healed him, insomuch that the blind and dumb both spake and saw. And all the people were amazed, and said, Is not this the son of David? But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, This fellow doth not cast out devils, but by Beelzebub the prince of the devils. And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand: And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand? And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your children cast them out? therefore they shall be your judges. But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you. Or else how can one enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind (or) deo(Strong’s 1210) the strong man? And then he will spoil his house.”

The Lord identifies the casting out of devils and the deliverance of souls with the binding of the strong man. He in turn presents this as proof that Satan is curbed through the presence and victorious function of the kingdom of God. Christ was here specifically referring to Satan (the strong man) and his demonic kingdom, and expressly connects his binding with the manifestation of the kingdom of God during His earthly ministry. The subjugating of devils was proof of the spiritual restraint of the evil one. Satan could not prevent this. Satan could not overcome those who had been rescued by Christ.

Jude supports the view of a current binding of the whole kingdom of darkness, in v 6, when he says,“the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting desmois (Strong’s 1199) (or) chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.”

Jude like John in Revelation 20:1 uses literal terminologies to in some way impress the restricted spiritual condition of Satan and the kingdom of darkness since the Cross. The literalist would do well to remember that Satan and his emissaries are spiritual-beings. Angels and demons are spiritual creations, not physical mortal creatures. It is only logical then to recognize that the binding of spiritual-beings must of necessity be executed in a spiritual way not a literal physical way, as Premils argue. After all, the same God that made them spiritual must then spiritually bind them in order to curb their influence.

2 Peter 2:4 closely correlates with Jude v6, saying, “God spared not the angels that sinned, but tartaroo (or) ‘cast them down to hell’, and delivered them seiraís (or) ‘into chains’ of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment.”

This passage is an obvious mirror of Jude verse 6, describing the spiritual restrains that the whole demonic realm is currently subject to, up until the judgment. It is worth noting that this passage is the only place in Scripture where we find the Greek words tartaroo (Strong’s 5020) and seiraís (Strong’s 4577). The word tartaroo in the original does not refer to hell (Hades) but rather to the abyss. In fact, the Greek word tartaroo comes from tartaros which refers to the deepest part of the abyss. Moreover, the Greek word seiraís simply means bonds. This text powerfully confirms the Amillennial view that Satan’s demonic kingdom is already bound in the invisible spiritual realm of the abyss.

Revelation 9:11 tells us that this demonic pit “had a king over them, which is the angel of the abussos (or) abyss, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon.”

In piecing the apocalyptic jigsaw together we find that this dark spiritual dungeon currently has a king over it. This gives us insight into the fact that the abyss must be speaking of a kingdom. Moreover, that kingdom is imprisoned in its own darkness. The fact that there is a king currently ruling tells us that the abyss must contain a kingdom. The word kingdom means ‘king with a domain’. Its meaning includes the territory and the people over whom the King rules and exercises sovereign authority. The term also includes the legislation and laws that administrate that kingdom. The word employed in the New Testament for ‘kingdom’ is the Greek word basileia denoting ‘sovereignty, royal power, kingship and dominion’. A kingdom must therefore have (1) a king – a head, (2) a domain to rule over – subjects and territory, (3) a structure of administration – ethics, rules and laws which govern it.

I would genuinely appreciate it if you were to address these one by one.

wpm , no hard feelings , I just haven't got the time for all this, I spend a lot of time here on bibleforums but to keep up with you is difficult. I have a wife and 3 kids to spend time with (and a business to run) and...... and ..........life to live. Over the next couple of days I'll see if I've got time.

John146
Dec 5th 2008, 02:40 PM
Do you genuinely believe that I think all OT prophecies have to be taken literally?

For the record I said:



You regard certain OT prophecies that have no symbolism as symbolic. Where there is no symbolism we have to consider that the prophecy could be literally interpreted. Like Zechariah 14 , this is a very literal book.Do you also believe that Zechariah 13 is a very literal chapter?

Zech 13:7 Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man that is my fellow, saith the LORD of hosts: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones.

Is this verse speaking about literal sheep?

wpm
Dec 5th 2008, 03:16 PM
I don't see the need to have a corroboration about the literal 1000 years.

Daniel 9:27 refers to a 3.5 year period between the Messiah coming , and an end to sacrifice and offering. This was perfectly fulfilled by Jesus when He was crucified.
Are there any other OT prophecies that corroborated this prophecy about Jesus' ministry being 3.5 years long? Not any that I know, yet this was fulfilled.

Jeremiah was told about the seventy years of captivity in Babylon, this was not corroborated outside of Jeremiah, and yet came about. The bible says that Daniel understood from Jeremiah that there would be a literal 70 year period of captivity, this was not a vision given to Daniel, but Daniel's understanding from reading the book of Jeremiah. Daniel was happy to conclude about a 70 year literal period from reading just one book, so am I.

So to answer your questions 1 to 5, no there is no corroboration elsewhere of a specific 1000 year period being mentioned. But I do have corroboration that when a specific period is mentioned in prophecy it has been literally fulfilled without being corroborated by other books in the bible. I am happy with this principle , it's biblically proven that it isn't essential to have corroboration.

Are you aware of any verse in the bible when a specific period is prophesied about , and WAS NOT literally fulfilled? Can you definitely show me that the period was fulfilled in a symbolic manner or over a different period than originally prophesied? Let's see if precisely predicted periods in symbolic prophecies have a history of being fulfilled in an imprecise manner. Please justify why you say the millenium is being fulfilled, over a period greater than 2000 years so far, when Revelation 20 says it will be 1000 years long.

Like you , I believe in ONE GWT judgement, when all the deeds of men will be judged. Other judgements , eg the flood , the Babylonian destruction of the temple, the Roman destruction of Jerusalem and the temple, the judgement of the nations at the second coming, all of them can be proven to be judgments as well.

Question 6: the "first resurrection"
I've answered this already. You have to look at the context of the verses to understand what is meant. Jesus' resurrection is described as the first resurrection. Yet the righteous will be resurrected before the unrighteous. So to say that the resurrection of the righteous is the "first resurrection" is also accurate when comparing it to the resurrection of the unrighteous. We can't get fixated on a phrase but have to look at its meaning in context.

20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years

"This is" is a phrase referring to something else here. The most clear interpretation is that the phrase is referring to the coming to life of the martyred saints.

No resurrection of Christ or coming to life of anyone or anything else is mentioned here so in context to apply the phrase "first resurrection" to the resurrection of the martyrs is appropriate.

All of our doctrines / beliefs are very much governed / coloured by our methods of scriptural interpretation. It is therefore imperative that we approach Scripture correctly in order to ascertain God’s truth. We should reaffirm a few absolutes, which are important when approaching any passage, subject or doctrine.

Firstly, Scripture never contradicts itself. If there appears to be a contradiction, we can be sure it is in our understanding that is the problem rather than any failing in the text of Holy Writ.

Secondly, Revelation is an integral part of the New Testament, just as much as the four gospels and the accompanying epistles.

Thirdly, we should not divorce Revelation from the repeated teaching of the rest of scripture. We should compare Scripture with Scripture and interpret it in the light of the full written counsel of God.

Fourthly, obscure and difficult passages must give way to clear and explicit passages.

Fifthly, one cannot approach Scripture with preconceptions of a doctrine or man made rules and regulations or it will colour our view of Scripture and any doctrine contained therein. We will end up forcing square pegs into round holes.

Sixthly, because Scripture contains a large mix of literal, symbolic and parabolic teaching we need to take each passage individually and in context. We should be sensitive to its setting, style of writing, and the respective subject under discussion.

Seventhly, because we are human and without full understanding, we need the aid of the Holy Ghost to assist us in comprehending even the simplest of truths, without that we are useless.

This is not an exhaustive list, but one that I feel covers the main requirements needed to understand all truth and gives us a basis to move forward. I feel if we can establish fundamental principles then we have a foundation for moving forward. Please feel free to challenge this list or add to it.

The only sure way to interpret Scripture is with other Scripture. 2 Peter 1:20 says, “no prophecy of the Scripture is of any private interpretation.” The foremost consideration when studying Scripture must be to establish the contextual meaning of the text, whether it is literal, symbolic or parabolic, and what and when it relates to. We must also let other Scripture corroborate our understanding of it and shed further light on the meaning of the text in question. We must always interpret Scripture in a manner that does not conflict with other clear passages. If it does, that interpretation must be rejected and further study should be committed to determine the correct interpretation that harmonizes with the full context of Scripture. 2 Corinthians 13:1 highlights a Divine evidential imperative, which if ignored will bring Bible students into all forms of strange teaching. It states, “In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established.” If ever there is a passage in the Word of God that needs to be examined and understood in the light of the plain, simple teaching found elsewhere within the canon of Scripture, it is the much-debated symbolic narrative of Revelation 20.

Amils view Revelation symbolically because it is saturated from start to finish in symbolism. Revelation 20 is no exception. Satan is not literally a dragon and at the same time a serpent, neither should we think that a spiritual being like the devil can be held with literal metal chains in a literal brick prisonhouse. Amils take passages that are literal in their setting literal. We take passages that are symbolic in their setting symbolic.

We must therefore interpret Scripture with Scripture and not by the man’s innovative religious constraints, history books, ancient or modern writings, eschatological books/novels, archaeology or, as is popular today in this day of apostasy, human reasoning. When examining Scripture we must throw off the heavy theological chains that men place on us, decommission our flawed natural mindset, as it is mainly contrary to God’s mind, and embrace the simple meaning of the passage that is determined by context, location and wording. We must then consider the passage in question in the light of the repeated teaching of other Scripture. The clear and explicit texts must always have precedent over the difficult, obscure and debatable. We must submit to the consistent and expressed teaching of all Scripture, not our own private thinking which is normally wrong.

You admit that there is no biblical support for all the major tenets of Premil. How can you look upon it as a biblical doctrine? It is hard to see why people wouldn't at least question it on that fundamental and important basis. This is where we rebut the cults and false teaching on. We impress upon them the danger of taking a text out of context and making it a pretext.

wpm
Dec 5th 2008, 03:22 PM
Are you aware of any verse in the bible when a specific period is prophesied about , and WAS NOT literally fulfilled? Can you definitely show me that the period was fulfilled in a symbolic manner or over a different period than originally prophesied? Let's see if precisely predicted periods in symbolic prophecies have a history of being fulfilled in an imprecise manner. Please justify why you say the millenium is being fulfilled, over a period greater than 2000 years so far, when Revelation 20 says it will be 1000 years long.


Firstly, Revelation 17:12 says, "And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast."

How long is the “one hour” that the beast reigns with the “ten kings” in Revelation 17:12 is, i.e. is it sixty minutes?

Secondly, nowhere else in Scripture do we learn of a literal one thousand yrs after the Second Coming.

Thirdly, elsewhere in Scripture we see the wicked and this world being destroyed at Christ's return.

Fourthly, it doesn't say 'one thousand' but an indefinite "thousand." Isaiah 30:17 is the only passage in Scripture that makes mention of the actual number “one thousand,” albeit, the term is used to impress a spiritual truth, “one thousand shall flee at the rebuke of one.”

Fifthly, Scripture repeatedly uses 'a thousand' in a figurative manner. Why would we take it literal in the most symbolic book in the Bible?

Sixthly, the meaning is determined by context. The symbolic context is obvious to see.

DurbanDude
Dec 6th 2008, 08:47 AM
Do you also believe that Zechariah 13 is a very literal chapter?

Zech 13:7 Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man that is my fellow, saith the LORD of hosts: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones.

Is this verse speaking about literal sheep?

It is referring to people as sheep , this is symbolic. You could have just made your point in this post, what is your point?

DurbanDude
Dec 6th 2008, 09:41 AM
You admit that there is no biblical support for all the major tenets of Premil. .

?????? :hmm: :hmm: I didn't


I showed biblical proof that a single prophetic mention of a period does not need corroboration , its original mention is sufficient to make a conclusion that the thousand years are literal. In reply you showed proof that periods are often fulfilled symbolically.

So both of us have biblical support for our way of interpretation, this is not even close to admitting no biblical support for the major tenets.

I believe the major tenets of the millenium are:
1) The second coming occurs with the resurrection of the saints
2) The saints then rule and reign with Christ after the second coming
3) There are surviving nations on this current earth after the second coming
4) The surviving nations will all be destroyed at the final judgement
5) There will be a new heaven and a new earth.

Relevant verses:
1) I didn't feel that I had to show you verses about this because you agree with me here, I can if you want.
2) Dan 7:27 This is referring to a post-second coming reigning, not current
2 Tim 2:12 "if we suffer , we shall also reign"
Rev 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth
3) I have always shown many verses , especially OT verses, even on this thread.
4) There are just so many verses to support this
5) We both agree there will be a new earth , there are at least 3 verses about this.

The order of the second coming occuring , then the saints ruling and the nations surviving is essential to an understanding of Rev 20 and the millenium. This is corroborated OUTSIDE of Rev 20.

DurbanDude
Dec 6th 2008, 02:41 PM
This is not an exhaustive list, but one that I feel covers the main requirements needed to understand all truth and gives us a basis to move forward. I

The only sure way to interpret Scripture is with other Scripture. 2 Peter 1:20 says, “no prophecy of the Scripture is of any private interpretation.”.

wpm, I actually agree with each one of your seven points here, that is how I translate the bible. I don't agree with the highlighted part though , sometimes you get a little more information from one scripture that you don't find anywhere else.

I have already shown you that in two separate places in the bible a definite period was prophesied , and was not corroborated outside that chapter. Yet they did come about. For you to conclude that the 1000 year period IS NOT a literal 1000 year period just because no actual other mention is made of an exact 1000 year period is wrong.

9:1 In the first year of Darius the son of Ahasuerus, of the seed of the Medes, which was made king over the realm of the Chaldeans;
9:2 In the first year of his reign I Daniel understood by books the number of the years, whereof the word of the LORD came to Jeremiah the prophet, that he would accomplish seventy years in the desolations of Jerusalem.

Daniel understood from Jeremiah that there would be a 70 year Babylonian exile. Daniel was proved right, he didn't need corroboration from any other book in the bible.

And the prediction about the ministry of Jesus being 3.5 years long in Daniel 9:27 was fulfilled without corroboration. But I said this already, you seem to have ignored my point.:hmm:

The verse that you use to corroborate your point that every verse has to have corroboration has been incorrectly interpreted by you:

1:19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:
1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
1:21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

This simply means that all prophecy that is found in the scriptures is God inspired. There are many verses that say this, you may find Rev 20 hard to understand , I don't , it is very clear, and fits in with so many verses about the state of this current earth after the second coming.

For your amill interpretation to fit you have to:

1) state that Satan isn't literally sealed in the bottomless pit, but it is a spiritual sealing that still allows him to have a current effect on earth
2) state that the blessed city that is surrounded isn't a literal city, even though you believe that there will be a physical battle there anyway in Jerusalem
3) state that the saints won't literally be in the camp of the saints.
4) state that the term "first resurrection" isn't a literal physical resurrection of those martyred saints mentioned who come alive , but is referring to the earlier resurrection of Christ.
5) Spiritualise and symbolise any reference to survivors after the second coming (numerous verses about this) into a period meaning spiritual reigning now over the nations , when we can all see that at the moment the nations are completely under the control of Satan. Except for the church, there is no Messianic rule over the nations now , spiritually or physically.

Again and again a spiritual explanation is given when a simple biblically supported literal view that the nations will survive the second coming and this explains Revelation 20 fits easier and has more biblical support.

It just goes on and on, whenever something contradicts your beliefs you come up with a spiritual explanation, I experimented with that approach , it is very easy to defend any point of view like that, but not accurate.

wpm
Dec 6th 2008, 08:50 PM
wpm, I actually agree with each one of your seven points here, that is how I translate the bible. I don't agree with the highlighted part though , sometimes you get a little more information from one scripture that you don't find anywhere else.

I have already shown you that in two separate places in the bible a definite period was prophesied , and was not corroborated outside that chapter. Yet they did come about. For you to conclude that the 1000 year period IS NOT a literal 1000 year period just because no actual other mention is made of an exact 1000 year period is wrong.

9:1 In the first year of Darius the son of Ahasuerus, of the seed of the Medes, which was made king over the realm of the Chaldeans;
9:2 In the first year of his reign I Daniel understood by books the number of the years, whereof the word of the LORD came to Jeremiah the prophet, that he would accomplish seventy years in the desolations of Jerusalem.

Daniel understood from Jeremiah that there would be a 70 year Babylonian exile. Daniel was proved right, he didn't need corroboration from any other book in the bible.

And the prediction about the ministry of Jesus being 3.5 years long in Daniel 9:27 was fulfilled without corroboration. But I said this already, you seem to have ignored my point.:hmm:

The verse that you use to corroborate your point that every verse has to have corroboration has been incorrectly interpreted by you:

1:19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:
1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
1:21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

This simply means that all prophecy that is found in the scriptures is God inspired. There are many verses that say this, you may find Rev 20 hard to understand , I don't , it is very clear, and fits in with so many verses about the state of this current earth after the second coming.

For your amill interpretation to fit you have to:

1) state that Satan isn't literally sealed in the bottomless pit, but it is a spiritual sealing that still allows him to have a current effect on earth
2) state that the blessed city that is surrounded isn't a literal city, even though you believe that there will be a physical battle there anyway in Jerusalem
3) state that the saints won't literally be in the camp of the saints.
3) state that the term "first resurrection" isn't a literal physical resurrection of those martyred saints mentioned who come alive , but is referring to the earlier resurrection of Christ.
4) Spiritualise and symbolise any reference to survivors after the second coming (numerous verses about this) into a period meaning spiritual reigning now over the nations , when we can all see that at the moment the nations are completely under the control of Satan. Except for the church, there is no Messianic rule over the nations now , spiritually or physically.

Again and again a spiritual explanation is given when a simple biblically supported literal view that the nations will survive the second coming and this explains Revelation 20 fits easier and has more biblical support.

It just goes on and on, whenever something contradicts your beliefs you come up with a spiritual explanation, I experimented with that approach , it is very easy to defend any point of view like that, but not accurate.


There are many numerous passages predicting Christ's first advent. There are many describing the intra-Advent period (the last days). There are many speaking about the Second Coming. There are many speaking about the eternal state (or new heavens and new earth). But nothing speaking about a 1,000 yrs period in-between the Coming of Christ and the eternal state, which is no different from today with sin, death, decay and hatred continuing. There is nothing.

John Metcalfe rightly says in relation to the Holy Spirit’s use of the phrase “a thousand” in the Old Testament, in a booklet ‘Premillennialism Exposed’, “One reads of a thousand hills, a thousand vines, a thousand Philistines, a thousand children of Bigvai, a thousand Ammonites, a thousand spears, a thousand camels, a thousand horses, a thousand chariots, a thousand judges, a thousand bullocks, a thousand rams, but never of a thousand years reign, no, not from Genesis to Malachi.”

And continues, “One can discover a thousand shields for a thousand Israelites, a thousand cubits and a thousand footmen to traverse them, a thousand talents and a thousand oxen to carry them, a thousand silver pieces and a thousand Edomites to covet them, a thousand baths and a thousand men to bathe in them, but what no one can find, no, not one of a thousand, is a thousand years reign at the end of time with the second coming of Christ preceding this millennial invention.”

I agree with Harold Hazelip, in ‘Revelation and the Millennium’ “The 1000 years appears nowhere in the 66 books, 1189 chapters, 31,173 verses of the Bible except for 6 occurrences in 6 consecutive verses of Revelation 20:2-7. It is not good exegesis to build an entire system of eschatology, a philosophy of history, on such a highly symbolic passage, particularly when that interpretation conflicts with other plain passage of scripture.”

In the NT Jesus, Paul, Peter, Jude etc, etc, all spoke of a climactic Coming of Christ when all the wicked are destroyed. They all saw two peoples in life - saved and lost. Premil creates a third group, Who are they? - saved or lost, Christ's or Satan's, heaven or hell.

For such a grandiose age of bliss the disciples and Christ would have spoke much about it - but they didn't. I wonder why? There are only two ages mentioned in Scripture and known to man - this age (time) and the age to come (eternity). I don’t see any mention of three ages in Scripture.

third hero
Dec 7th 2008, 07:24 AM
For such a grandiose age of bliss, the disciples and Christ would have spoke much about it - but they didn't. I wonder why? There are only two ages mentioned in Scripture and known to man - this age (time) and the age to come (eternity). I don’t see any mention of three ages in Scripture.


The goals of this thread is to prove points of view by means of scripture.

the scriptures clearly speak of an to come that, unlike this age, will show a world with Christ ruling it from Jerusalem. Whether you like it or not, that time is determined to be after the Return of the Lord (Revelation 16:15; 19:1-20), and before the destruction of heaven and Earth, (Revelation 20:11).

modanufu
Dec 7th 2008, 11:34 AM
My evidence is the scriptures alone, with no interpretation needed.

I see you're not impressed by the results of amillennial explanations of Rev. 20. (Nor is DurbanDude, it seems). :)

Some amils perhaps may do it better, others worse but this will not lead them to give up their position. Why not, when in the eyes of chiliasts the chapter is so clear and self-evident?

That is because they feel that the whole NT is against such a point of view. And, to be sure, even in the book of Revelation itself besides ch. 20 they find passages that are clearly amil.

After my conversion I became a dispensationalist devouring many many books based on that theory invented by John Nelson Darby in 1840. Later on I met problems in the Scriptures and I have wrestled with them for years. I have tried to construct from NT data outside Revelation a picture that would be in accordance with a literal view of Rev. 20 (e.g. from Matthew 25 and the like) but I was not able to succeed however I tried. It is possible to build up a theoretical millennium from those verses but this will not be the millennium of Rev. 20. And in this way I finally had to give up my premillennialism.

Not only amils, premils also have problems in explaining certain OT passages. To sum up some of them:

There is the difficult choice between what passages have been fulfilled and what passages have not yet been fulfilled, not only with the first and second coming of our Lord but also with prophecies that could be explained as relating to the historical Babylonian exile or as relating to the millennium. It is amazing how easy some people (perhaps not you) apply prophecies that have clearly found their fulfilment in OT times without any hesitation to a future millennium. But perhaps this can find its solution by further study.

Then there is the big problem in those passages that one thinks are about the millennium or the endtime just before it -- well, I mean all those names of peoples and nations that no longer exist. In my eyes the procedure in this is rather haphazard. For instance, is Gog Russia? or Syria? Or Iran? Or Iraq? Or some future nation not yet heard of? Is it identical of Daniel's king of the north or is it something else? How can one ever know?

Then there are passages that, explained literally, seem to contradict itself. And, well, there is always the possibility of contradictions -- not in Scripture itself, of course, but caused by the way one explains things. One's hermeneutics. An example about Egypt.



Isaiah 19:24-25 In that day shall Israel be the third with Egypt and with Assyria, even a blessing in the midst of the land: Whom the LORD of hosts shall bless, saying, Blessed be Egypt my people, and Assyria the work of my hands, and Israel mine inheritance.


This is a picture of the millennium in which Egypt will believe in the Lord and be number one among the nations. Egypt is "my people" = "God's people". Israel only number three. Mortals in the millennium... Well, well... :confused



Ezekiel 32:15 When I shall make the land of Egypt desolate, and the country shall be destitute of that whereof it was full, when I shall smite all them that dwell therein, then shall they know that I am the LORD. Cf. Ez. 30 about them as fugitives all over the world.
Joel 3:19-20 Egypt shall be a desolation [...] But Judah shall dwell for ever, and Jerusalem from generation to generation..


Another picture of the millennium but now Egypt is desolate, without inhabitants, without believers. And, amazingly, Isaiah predicts this same destruction a few chapters before the text cited above.



Isaiah 11:15 And the LORD shall utterly destroy the tongue of the Egyptian sea; and with his mighty wind shall he shake his hand over the river, and shall smite it in the seven streams, and make men go over dryshod.


I know most premils never give up their belief in a future millennium. So do we amills never give up in denying a future millennium. But who is right??? Depends in both parties on INTERPRETATION. You cannot do without and it is not wrong to do it.

Kind regards,

Dik

RevLogos
Dec 7th 2008, 08:41 PM
the disciples and Christ would have spoke much about it - but they didn't. I wonder why? There are only two ages mentioned in Scripture and known to man - this age (time) and the age to come (eternity). I don’t see any mention of three ages in Scripture.


So for a moment lets suppose the 1000 years is symbolic and the amil view is correct - that we are in that period of time. Then when did it start? With Christ's resurrection? When was Satan thrown to the abyss, and when does Satan emerge from the abyss? Is being in the abyss what holds him back (2Th 2:6)? How does Satan exert influence while in the abyss?

Wouldn't that mean that the "first resurrection" is anyone at anytime who believed in Christ? Which could be a lot more, or a lot less than 1000 years.

wpm
Dec 8th 2008, 03:37 AM
So for a moment lets suppose the 1000 years is symbolic and the amil view is correct - that we are in that period of time. Then when did it start? With Christ's resurrection? When was Satan thrown to the abyss, and when does Satan emerge from the abyss? Is being in the abyss what holds him back (2Th 2:6)? How does Satan exert influence while in the abyss?

Wouldn't that mean that the "first resurrection" is anyone at anytime who believed in Christ? Which could be a lot more, or a lot less than 1000 years.

We would all agree that Christ physically conquered the grave with His glorious resurrection. What is more, in order of sequence, He was “the first resurrection.” He was the first to be glorified and enter into heaven. Finally, we must all agree, He did this all on our behalf. That is why this passage says that we now have our portion in this first resurrection. That is what happens on salvation. We identify with His death, burial and resurrection. In fact, all that experience salvation because they have identified with Christ by simple faith in the new birth. They spiritually have their part in the eternal work of Christ 2,000 years when He defeated the grave on their behalf. In short, this was a substitutionary act – He did it in our stead.

Those who struggle with a figurative interpretation of Revelation 20 must surely concede that our reading begins in deeply symbolic style. The chapter begins with a figurative description of both an angel with a key and chain and a symbolic portrait of a “dragon” / “serpent.” This figurative introduction is in full keeping with the general nature of the whole book of Revelation and also the overall tenure of chapter 20.

Amils hold that this symbolic passage reveals a profound picture of the aftermath of Christ’s glorious death, burial and resurrection and outlines the effect it had on Satan, the spread of the Gospel and a chosen remnant of hell deserving sinners.

The binding is spiritual because Satan and His minions are spiritual. Satan was spiritually bound in chains in order to facilitate the spread of the Gospel to his territory. No other meaning enjoys scriptural corroboration. The rest of the demonic world is bound by chains until the judgment (as demonstrated in 2 Peter 2:4, Jude v6), yet this does not stop their movement but simply limits it. Satan’s hoards are bound as to their influence but this does not prevent movement. They must keep within heaven’s boundaries.

The devil is in a spiritual prison on this earth. His boundaries are carefully defined by God. The abyss is not a physical pit because Satan is not a physical being. The kingdom of God is now restrained since the cross. They have been in chains since the earthly ministry of Christ.

Revelation 9 describes an abyss that is full of wicked spirits that are restrained, but will be released prior to the Second Coming for a short season. This is something Premils choose to overlook. The abyss is inhabited now with Satan's minions. They had a king over them (Abaddon / Apollyon), a ruler who marshaled their hosts. This is Satan - the only king in the kingdom of darkness.

The spiritual restrains will be released on Satan and the beast antichrist system at the end to curtail the global spread of the Gospel. At the end of the thousand years, Satan will be loosed for a short time. The one who "letteth," or restrains, will be taken out of the way (2 Thess 2:7). This enables Satan to establish his world-kingdom under antichrist. The result is the final, all-out assault upon the true church and her living, faithful members. The "beloved city" represents the church. The "saints" are all those whom the Spirit of Christ has sanctified through faith in Christ.

RevLogos
Dec 8th 2008, 04:43 AM
Those who struggle with a figurative interpretation of Revelation 20 must surely concede that our reading begins in deeply symbolic style. The chapter begins with a figurative description of both an angel with a key and chain and a symbolic portrait of a “dragon” / “serpent.” This figurative introduction is in full keeping with the general nature of the whole book of Revelation and also the overall tenure of chapter 20.



The struggle I think is with only a couple of verses. Symbolic or not, there is a clear sequence defined in 20:4,5 and 6. Those martyred in the tribulations, and even those survive, come to life and reign with Christ for 1000 years (or some symbolic length of time). The rest remain dead until the final judgment. There is a clear separation between these two events that is hard to get around, whether we view Rev 20 as symbolic or literal. Does the amil view just ignore this separation?

Good point on the abyss in Rev 9. Clearly, evil has already been placed in the abyss, and a little of it is let out in Rev 9 at the 5th trumpet.

wpm
Dec 8th 2008, 04:55 AM
The struggle I think is with only a couple of verses. Symbolic or not, there is a clear sequence defined in 20:4,5 and 6. Those martyred in the tribulations, and even those survive, come to life and reign with Christ for 1000 years (or some symbolic length of time). The rest remain dead until the final judgment. There is a clear separation between these two events that is hard to get around, whether we view Rev 20 as symbolic or literal. Does the amil view just ignore this separation?

Good point on the abyss in Rev 9. Clearly, evil has already been placed in the abyss, and a little of it is let out in Rev 9 at the 5th trumpet.

I think the beast can be identified with (what the rest of Scripture describes as) the "mystery of iniquity" and "that spirit of antichrist." I believe these are all synonymous. It is interesting that they are all described as being alive and kicking in Bible times. This would challenge the popular modern-day belief of the beast being an end-time person.

The Beast

Revelation 17:8 states, “The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.”

Revelation 17:9-13 further enlarges,“The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth. And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space. And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition. And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast. These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.”

The mystery of iniquity

Paul explains in 2 Thessalonians 2:7-12 of his day,“For the mystery of iniquity doth already work:only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.”

That spirit of antichrist

1 John 4:3 sheds more light on this matter, saying,“And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.”

The souls of the dead in Christ

I am of the view that the saints in heaven are the dead in Christ now (those who have had their part in Christ's first resurrection). The saints on earth now - like those that are said to be surrounded by Gog and Magog in Rev 20 - are the 'live in Christ' (those who have equally had their part in Christ's first resurrection). Both parties are reigning - in Christ. This is a positional thing. They reign because He reigns. The fact is, we all are seated in heavenly places.

Revelation 20:4 says, “And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given (bestowed, committed or delivered) unto them.”

Thrones are always located within the heavenly domain - the place of authority and power.

And continues, “I saw the souls (tas psychas) of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.”

The scene that we observe in this symbolic passage is surely a heavenly one. The believers in view are deliberately described as “the souls” proving that we are looking at the great heavenly host of the redeemed of God in disembodied form. As yet they have not received their glorified bodies.

Revelation 6:9-10 similarly says, closely paralleling the scene portrayed in Revelation 20, “I saw under the altar the souls (tas psychas) of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?”

Few would have any difficulty in accepting that Revelation 6:9-10 – the fifth seal – is speaking (1) of the disembodied spirits of the “dead in Christ,” (2) that they are found in heaven and (2) at a time prior to the Second Advent and the day of God’s wrath – the sixth seal. The very next verse of this narrative (6:11) confirms, “And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.”

Here these disembodied saints are described as resting before “the altar” in heaven “for a little season” until the arrival of their “fellowservants” and “brethren” that are still being persecuted and “dwell on the earth.” This verifies the fact that this group is speaking of the disembodied saints and that they are located in heaven. Those who would suggest that “the souls” outlined in Revelation 20:4 are anything other than the same heavenly saints described in Revelation 6:9-10 are sadly mistaken. No one with any credence could surely translate “tas psuchas ton pepelekismenon” (Revelation 20:4) as “the people of them that were beheaded,” or as “the men of them that were beheaded,” no, they are “the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus” as the King James Version rightly interprets. Here the word “psuchas” describes the disembodied souls of those who have died in Christ who are now safely in heaven. Here we clearly have a heavenly scene, and one that is undoubtedly located in this present intra-Advent period of time. It depicts the risen saints in glory awaiting the consummation of all things. In Revelation 20:4 the souls are said to have been “beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God” whereas in Revelation 6:11 they are described as “them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held.”

wpm
Dec 8th 2008, 05:00 AM
The struggle I think is with only a couple of verses. Symbolic or not, there is a clear sequence defined in 20:4,5 and 6. Those martyred in the tribulations, and even those survive, come to life and reign with Christ for 1000 years (or some symbolic length of time). The rest remain dead until the final judgment. There is a clear separation between these two events that is hard to get around, whether we view Rev 20 as symbolic or literal. Does the amil view just ignore this separation?

Good point on the abyss in Rev 9. Clearly, evil has already been placed in the abyss, and a little of it is let out in Rev 9 at the 5th trumpet.

Tribulation

I believe we are currently in the tribulation and the rapture is still future. At the rapture the elect in total are rescued and the wicked in total are destroyed. I believe there will be an intensification of tribulation before the end.

2 Timothy 3:12 declares, “all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.”

Jesus said in John 16:33, “In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.”

Acts 14:22 says, “we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.”

DIZZY
Dec 8th 2008, 07:34 AM
That's what I believe :D Full agreement here

But you did say this in an earlier post:



Have you changed your mind?

Hi DurbanDude,
No I have not changed my mind. I believe the first resurrection consists of all believing saints from each era. I believe it starts with the church saints, then the tribulation saints and Old Testament saints the last on the list of the first resurrection I believe are the millennial saints. As I said the first resurrection consists of believing saints only.

John146
Dec 8th 2008, 08:39 PM
It is referring to people as sheep , this is symbolic. You could have just made your point in this post, what is your point?You insisted that all of Zechariah 14 is to be taken literally and yet I showed you a verse from the preceding chapter that is meant to be interpreted symbolically. Therefore, I believe your insistence on how we should read Zechariah 14 (all literal) is not something that anyone should take seriously.

RevLogos
Dec 9th 2008, 12:47 AM
I believe it starts with the church saints, then the tribulation saints and Old Testament saints the last on the list of the first resurrection I believe are the millennial saints. As I said the first resurrection consists of believing saints only.

Are you saying that only believing saints populate the earth in the Millennium?

RevLogos
Dec 9th 2008, 04:29 AM
I am of the view that the saints in heaven are the dead in Christ now (those who have had their part in Christ's first resurrection). The saints on earth now - like those that are said to be surrounded by Gog and Magog in Rev 20 - are the 'live in Christ' (those who have equally had their part in Christ's first resurrection). Both parties are reigning - in Christ. This is a positional thing. They reign because He reigns. The fact is, we all are seated in heavenly places.

Revelation 20:4 says, “And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and j
And continues, “I saw the souls (tas psychas) of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.”

The scene that we observe in this symbolic passage is surely a heavenly one. The believers in view are deliberately described as “the souls” proving that we are looking at the great heavenly host of the redeemed of God in disembodied form. As yet they have not received their glorified bodies.



I am looking at it from a different angle, but I believe it leads to the same conclusion. The key part of 20:4 is "they lived and reigned with Christ". Who lives and reigns with Christ?

We do.

Some translations say something like "and they came to life and reigned with Christ". But that is not in the Greek, and it is presumptuous. Those who reign with Christ are not all necessarily dead in that time. Not all of the examples given are martyrs. Nevertheless, "coming to life" could be apropos as it refers to the coming alive of our spirit.

Before we are saved, we are spiritually dead. After we are saved we have eternal life (whether physically alive or not). The doctrine I am speaking of is from John 5:24-25:

Joh 5:24 "I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life.
Joh 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. [NIV]

The dead in 5:25 refers to the spiritually dead from 5:24, not the physically dead.

And other similar verses, such as:

Eph 2:1 As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins,
Eph 2:2 in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient.
Eph 2:3 All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our sinful nature and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature objects of wrath.
Eph 2:4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy,
Eph 2:5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved.

Alive with Christ. Paul uses almost the exact same words as John. The spiritual coming to life and reigning with Christ applies to everyone, not just martyrs. Thus it is very reasonable to interpret 20:4 as not just referring to the martyrs of the tribulation, but all who are in Christ from the beginning through the tribulation. When John says the dead do not come to life until after the millennium, he refers to those spiritually dead and physically dead.

This means what John refers to as the "first resurrection" and the "second death" is actually the same event; which it is depends on whether or not your name is in the Book of Life. Those who are alive spiritually experience a resurrection to their glorified state. Those who are dead spiritually experience a second death in the Lake of Fire.

DurbanDude
Dec 9th 2008, 10:44 AM
You insisted that all of Zechariah 14 is to be taken literally and yet I showed you a verse from the preceding chapter that is meant to be interpreted symbolically. Therefore, I believe your insistence on how we should read Zechariah 14 (all literal) is not something that anyone should take seriously.

Everyone is obviously free to interpret anyway they like, interpret it symbolically if you like. We will have to agree to disagree here, and other readers can decide for themselves if each verse of Zechariah 14 fits symbolically into the current age, or is referring to a future Messianic rule over the nations.

John146
Dec 9th 2008, 09:21 PM
The Amil POV is relatively newThat is not true. You haven't done your homework, Doug. Please read this: http://www.mountainretreatorg.net/eschatology/athacreed.html

Partaker of Christ
Dec 10th 2008, 12:06 AM
I cannot say that I understand amill or premill, with any depth, as I have not given much study to these.

My question is: Why would the early Church expect the Lord to come soon, if there had yet to be a 1000 years of His rule over the kingdoms of the earth, before He came?

Paul said that first there will be a falling away, and the son of perdition will be revealed, but he did not say 'but hey, do not fret, for this will be at least another 1000 years'

My view is that they believed the Lord would come at any time, and then they would reign with Him a 1000 years.

bennie
Dec 10th 2008, 12:27 AM
I cannot say that I understand amill or premill, with any depth, as I have not given much study to these.

My question is: Why would the early Church expect the Lord to come soon, if there had yet to be a 1000 years of His rule over the kingdoms of the earth, before He came?

Paul said that first there will be a falling away, and the son of perdition will be revealed, but he did not say 'but hey, do not fret, for this will be at least another 1000 years'

My view is that they believed the Lord would come at any time, and then they would reign with Him a 1000 years.


when was revelation written and when was Paul's books written?

bennie

Partaker of Christ
Dec 10th 2008, 01:00 AM
when was revelation written and when was Paul's books written?

bennie

Is this suppose to make a difference?

Who was the Author?

Did the Author tell Paul a porky, and then tell John the truth?

bennie
Dec 10th 2008, 01:14 AM
Is this suppose to make a difference?

Who was the Author?

Did the Author tell Paul a porky, and then tell John the truth?

yikes. sorry bro. just a question.

If revelation was written after paul wrote his books, how would paul have known about the 1000 years in revelation.
That is al i was getting at mate.

bennie

DIZZY
Dec 10th 2008, 01:36 AM
Are you saying that only believing saints populate the earth in the Millennium?

Hi Revolvr,

At the beginning of the Millennial Kingdom only believing saints enter.

During the Millennial period the believing saints have children, it is some of these children born to the saints that disobey the Lord.

The Lord rules over these nations with an iron rod and punishes those who do not worship Him.

Psalm 2:9 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=23&chapter=2&verse=9&version=50&context=verse)
You shall break them with a rod of iron;You shall dash them to pieces like a potter’s vessel.’”

Zechariah 14:
16 And it shall come to pass that everyone who is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the Feast of Tabernacles. 17 And it shall be that whichever of the families of the earth do not come up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, on them there will be no rain. 18 If the family of Egypt will not come up and enter in, they shall have no rain; they shall receive the plague with which the LORD strikes the nations who do not come up to keep the Feast of Tabernacles. 19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt and the punishment of all the nations that do not come up to keep the Feast of Tabernacles.
20 In that day “HOLINESS TO THE LORD” shall be engraved on the bells of the horses. The pots in the LORD’s house shall be like the bowls before the altar. 21 Yes, every pot in Jerusalem and Judah shall be holiness to the LORD of hosts. Everyone who sacrifices shall come and take them and cook in them. In that day there shall no longer be a Canaanite in the house of the LORD of hosts.

The children who disobey the Lord at the end of the Millennial reign will form Satan's army. Satan will gather his army from all nations to come up against Jerusalem, which is the camp of the saints.

Revelation 20:7-10
7 Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea. 9 They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them. 10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

God sends fire down from heaven and devours Satan and all those that followed him. God casts Satan into the lake of fire where the beast and false prophet are imprisoned already.

The final judgment seat.

Those who are not written in the book of life are judged before the Great white Throne and then cast into the lake of fire with death and hell, then death is defeated no longer does death have a place, for there is no more death, no more tears and no more pain.

Revelation 20:11-15
11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

Those who are in this lake of fire will look on him who brought down the nations and marvel.

Isaiah 14:12-21
12 “ How you are fallen from heaven,
O Lucifer, son of the morning!
How you are cut down to the ground,
You who weakened the nations!
13 For you have said in your heart:

‘ I will ascend into heaven,
I will exalt my throne above the stars of God;
I will also sit on the mount of the congregation
On the farthest sides of the north;
14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds,
I will be like the Most High.’
15 Yet you shall be brought down to Sheol,
To the lowest depths of the Pit.
16 “ Those who see you will gaze at you,
And consider you, saying:

‘ Is this the man who made the earth tremble,
Who shook kingdoms,
17 Who made the world as a wilderness
And destroyed its cities,
Who did not open the house of his prisoners?’
18 “ All the kings of the nations,
All of them, sleep in glory,
Everyone in his own house;
19 But you are cast out of your grave
Like an abominable branch,
Like the garment of those who are slain,
Thrust through with a sword,
Who go down to the stones of the pit,
Like a corpse trodden underfoot.
20 You will not be joined with them in burial,
Because you have destroyed your land
And slain your people.
The brood of evildoers shall never be named.
21 Prepare slaughter for his children
Because of the iniquity of their fathers,
Lest they rise up and possess the land,
And fill the face of the world with cities.”

DIZZY
Dec 10th 2008, 02:57 AM
I cannot say that I understand amill or premill, with any depth, as I have not given much study to these.

My question is: Why would the early Church expect the Lord to come soon, if there had yet to be a 1000 years of His rule over the kingdoms of the earth, before He came?

Paul said that first there will be a falling away, and the son of perdition will be revealed, but he did not say 'but hey, do not fret, for this will be at least another 1000 years'

My view is that they believed the Lord would come at any time, and then they would reign with Him a 1000 years.


Hi Partaker of Christ,

Paul was actually indicating to the Thessalonians that he had already told them the signs of when Christ was to return and not to be troubled. There were people in Thessalonia writing letters saying He had returned and Paul was saying different. Paul was reaffirming what he had taught them before.

2Thessalonians
1 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.
5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? 6 And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, 10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

They thought the Lord would come at anytime, but Paul said I have given you the signs before the Lord returns, until this happens don't fret.

So therefore it could be 10yrs, 50yrs, 100,yrs 1000yrs, 1500yrs who knows not even the Son of Man nows that, but we have to be prepared.

2 Timothy 4:1-8
1 I charge you therefore before God and the Lord Jesus Christ, who will judge the living and the dead at His appearing and His kingdom: 2 Preach the word! Be ready in season and out of season. Convince, rebuke, exhort, with all longsuffering and teaching. 3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; 4 and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables. 5 But you be watchful in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry. 6 For I am already being poured out as a drink offering, and the time of my departure is at hand. 7 I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith. 8 Finally, there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will give to me on that Day, and not to me only but also to all who have loved His appearing.

The Jews thought the Lord came the first time to destroy those who oppressed them and to rule from Jerusalem then. This was not to be so, the Lord came to die and save the world from Satan, sin and the penalty of sin which is death.

The next time the Lord comes He will come to rule from Jerusalem over the Jews and every nation for 1000yrs.

RevLogos
Dec 10th 2008, 02:59 AM
Hi Revolvr,

At the beginning of the Millennial Kingdom only believing saints enter.

During the Millennial period the believing saints have children, it is some of these children born to the saints that disobey the Lord.

The Lord rules over these nations with an iron rod and punishes those who do not worship Him.



It's been 2000 years since Jesus walked this earth. He reigns spiritually, not physically. This world was then and is now, full of other religions and false teachings. Today Satan could muster an army of a few hundred million, perhaps a billion tops.

In this "millennium" we start fresh in a new world with only saints, only Christianity, no false teachings, no Koran, nothing else. Jesus rules with an iron rod not only spiritually but physically.

But now at the end of only 1000 years, the very end, for a season, Satan is able to deceive so many that his army grows as large as the grains of sand in the sea, leaving only a small enclave of believers huddled in a camp.

What does that say about Jesus' leadership? What does that say about the faith of those He leads? Such weakness! The CEO of GM would do better. Even if the initial population were heathen who had just witnessed the power of the Lord in the tribulation, this could not happen. The sheer power Satan must have over Jesus to pull this off is unimaginable. There's got to be another explanation.

Partaker of Christ
Dec 10th 2008, 12:05 PM
yikes. sorry bro. just a question.

If revelation was written after paul wrote his books, how would paul have known about the 1000 years in revelation.
That is al i was getting at mate.

bennie

Hi bennie!

Sorry if I came across a little harsh. It was not meant that way
I do struggle at times, in expressing myself correctly. :hug:

I am sure that Paul would have known the scriptures inside out. I am also sure that from the scriptures, Paul would have known that (for a period of time) Christ would have ruled and reigned on earth with His saints (pre-trib or post-trib).

Another reason why I believe this ruling and reigning with a rod of iron, is after His return. Jesus Christ has not yet come to bring judgment to the world, but to redeem the world. We are still in the time of redemption and Grace. Paul also speaks that we are not to judge those outside.

DurbanDude
Dec 13th 2008, 11:03 AM
But now at the end of only 1000 years, the very end, for a season, Satan is able to deceive so many that his army grows as large as the grains of sand in the sea, leaving only a small enclave of believers huddled in a camp.

What does that say about Jesus' leadership? What does that say about the faith of those He leads? Such weakness! The CEO of GM would do better. Even if the initial population were heathen who had just witnessed the power of the Lord in the tribulation, this could not happen. The sheer power Satan must have over Jesus to pull this off is unimaginable. There's got to be another explanation.

No matter which age you believe the following verse to be fulfilled , this is what it says:


Rev 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

DIZZY
Dec 13th 2008, 12:31 PM
It's been 2000 years since Jesus walked this earth. He reigns spiritually, not physically. This world was then and is now, full of other religions and false teachings. Today Satan could muster an army of a few hundred million, perhaps a billion tops.

In this "millennium" we start fresh in a new world with only saints, only Christianity, no false teachings, no Koran, nothing else. Jesus rules with an iron rod not only spiritually but physically.

But now at the end of only 1000 years, the very end, for a season, Satan is able to deceive so many that his army grows as large as the grains of sand in the sea, leaving only a small enclave of believers huddled in a camp.

What does that say about Jesus' leadership? What does that say about the faith of those He leads? Such weakness! The CEO of GM would do better. Even if the initial population were heathen who had just witnessed the power of the Lord in the tribulation, this could not happen. The sheer power Satan must have over Jesus to pull this off is unimaginable. There's got to be another explanation.

Hi Revolvr,

Why do you believe Satan is stronger than Jesus?

We know the power that sin has over man. It is the sin of these children in the millennial kingdom that drives them not Satan. Satan is bound up for the 1000yrs but that doesn't stop people from sinning.

Through the first Adam sin entered the world and is past onto every man, woman and child.

Revelation 20:8-10
8 and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea. 9 They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them. 10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

The Bible doesn't tell us how many saints are in the camp when Satan gathers all the nations against it. What the Bible does say is very few find the way to heaven. Why is this?

Matthew 7:14 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=7&verse=14&version=50&context=verse)
Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.

Why is it that very few find the way?

1 Peter 3:20 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=67&chapter=3&verse=20&version=50&context=verse)
who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water.

How long did Noah preach to the people the destruction that was coming on the world? How many listened? How many servived? It was not that Satan was greater than the Lord, it was because mans heart was hardened against the Lord.

Genesis 13:9-11
9 Is not the whole land before you? Please separate from me. If you take the left, then I will go to the right; or, if you go to the right, then I will go to the left.”
10 And Lot lifted his eyes and saw all the plain of Jordan, that it was well watered everywhere (before the LORD destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah) like the garden of the LORD, like the land of Egypt as you go toward Zoar. 11 Then Lot chose for himself all the plain of Jordan, and Lot journeyed east. And they separated from each other.

How many were saved when the Lord destroyed Sodom?
Why was there so few who were saved? The hearts of his family and his daughters spouses were hardened, wicked and they did not trust the Lord.

Man is responsilbe for their sin they can not blame Satan.

Man has a choice to serve Satan or to serve our Loving Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. Satan doesn't influence that choice, he may put temptaions in front of us but it is our chioce to take it up.

It is our choice to serve a risen Saviour, everyone has that choice even in the millennial kingdom, but Satan is not about tempting people either way.

When he is released people are already against the Lord satan just deceives them into going up against the camp of the Lord. They believe they can win the battle, little do they realize Christ has already won.

RevLogos
Dec 13th 2008, 04:07 PM
Hi Revolvr,

Why do you believe Satan is stronger than Jesus?



In the millennial scenario, Satan must be stronger than Jesus. Jesus rules on earth with an iron rod, and even has a head start by having only saints, and no other religion.

After 1000 years, and when Satan is unleashed only for a short season at the end, Satan has lead the vast majority of people - more than the grains of sand in the sea - to want to kill Jesus. How is this possible when Jesus rules on this earth?

Just by sheer numbers Satan exerts much more influence than Jesus, and he does it in a very short time.

I cannot believe this. There must be some other explanation.

Another reason I have difficulty with this is the whole illogic of it. Why have a devastating world war against Satan followed by a second devastating world war against Satan 1000 years later? What's the point?

Your argument that we don't need Satan unbound for mankind to sin is very true. You at least share this belief with the amils. The Great Prostitute in Rev 17 is not Satan. Who is she?

RevLogos
Dec 13th 2008, 04:16 PM
No matter which age you believe the following verse to be fulfilled , this is what it says:


Rev 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Yes I have read it many times. There is nothing in these verses that suggest this is any other than Armageddon.

The verses in question are the few before this that talk of a 1000 year period. Do we treat this as a literal 1000 years? The only other time 1000 years is spoken of in the NT is when Peter tells us not to take 1000 years literally.

Show me some place else in the NT where two distinct judgments are rendered at different times and with different populations.

DurbanDude
Dec 13th 2008, 07:34 PM
But now at the end of only 1000 years, the very end, for a season, Satan is able to deceive so many that his army grows as large as the grains of sand in the sea, leaving only a small enclave of believers huddled in a camp.

What does that say about Jesus' leadership? What does that say about the faith of those He leads? Such weakness! The CEO of GM would do better. Even if the initial population were heathen who had just witnessed the power of the Lord in the tribulation, this could not happen. The sheer power Satan must have over Jesus to pull this off is unimaginable. There's got to be another explanation.

By quoting Rev 20 I was pointing out that no matter how you interpret Rev 20, whether in this age , or whether in a future age, whether as a literal attack on Jerusalem, or as a spiritual attack on the saints the verse still applies.To imply that Jesus would somehow be weaker with literal enemies as the grains of sand(many) surrounding of the camp, and yet stronger with a spiritual interpretation of the multitudes makes no sense to me. In all interpretations the multitudes are surrounding the saints, this is what the bible says. In all interpretations God is all-powerful and wins the battle, there is no implied weakness, one way or the other.

RevLogos
Dec 14th 2008, 03:04 AM
By quoting Rev 20 I was pointing out that no matter how you interpret Rev 20, whether in this age , or whether in a future age, whether as a literal attack on Jerusalem, or as a spiritual attack on the saints the verse still applies.To imply that Jesus would somehow be weaker with literal enemies as the grains of sand(many) surrounding of the camp, and yet stronger with a spiritual interpretation of the multitudes makes no sense to me. In all interpretations the multitudes are surrounding the saints, this is what the bible says. In all interpretations God is all-powerful and wins the battle, there is no implied weakness, one way or the other.

It does indeed matter greatly if this is today or a future millennial reign. The millennial reign of Christ is very different than what we have today - as I understand the premil view. This millennial kingdom is supposed to be a material, earthly, physical, civil kingdom like David ruled in the Old Testament.

Recall Ezekiel 39:7 used earlier in this thread:

So will I make my holy name known in the midst of my people Israel; and I will not [let them] pollute my holy name any more: and the heathen shall know that I [am] the LORD, the Holy One in Israel.

To have Jesus reign physically, yet loose most of the souls in half the time, belittles Jesus' authority.

Revelation is highly symbolic throughout. Isn't there a possibility the 1000 is symbolic too?

Psa 105:8 He hath remembered his covenant for ever, the word which he commanded to a thousand generations.

Does this mean everyone forgets at the 1001'th generation?

DIZZY
Dec 15th 2008, 11:38 AM
In the millennial scenario, Satan must be stronger than Jesus. Jesus rules on earth with an iron rod, and even has a head start by having only saints, and no other religion.

After 1000 years, and when Satan is unleashed only for a short season at the end, Satan has lead the vast majority of people - more than the grains of sand in the sea - to want to kill Jesus. How is this possible when Jesus rules on this earth?

Just by sheer numbers Satan exerts much more influence than Jesus, and he does it in a very short time.

I cannot believe this. There must be some other explanation.

Another reason I have difficulty with this is the whole illogic of it. Why have a devastating world war against Satan followed by a second devastating world war against Satan 1000 years later? What's the point?

Your argument that we don't need Satan unbound for mankind to sin is very true. You at least share this belief with the amils. The Great Prostitute in Rev 17 is not Satan. Who is she?

Hi Revolvr,
Do you not know the whore in Revelation 17 is the false religious system. All the false religions in the world will come together under one banner which is ruled by the beast, and the beast gets his power from the dragon (devil).

During the time of Christ on this earth not everyone understood the logic of Christ and His teachings. We may not understand and ask why to certain things God has said in His word, but it is through faith we believe everything that is written.

Who understands the wisdom of God, there must be a reason for this purification period. I know God doesn't want anyone to go to the lake of fire.

Is it to show man the wickedness of their hearts, that even without the tempter being there they are evil, who knows I am only guessing.

What I do know is that the Bible states there will be 1000yrs millennium period where the saints that have died will reign over those saints who were gathered to Jerusalem by the angels.

You know the earth will not be as we know it, all the cities of the world are destroyed and every island fled away. There were no more mountains the earth reverts back to its original form one land mass.

Revelation 16:19,20
19 Now the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell. And great Babylon was remembered before God, to give her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of His wrath. 20 Then every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.

Maybe the reason why people live so long aswell is there could possibly be a canopy over the earth once again protecting the earth.

Isaiah 65:19-21
19 I will rejoice in Jerusalem,
And joy in My people;
The voice of weeping shall no longer be heard in her,
Nor the voice of crying.
20 “ No more shall an infant from there live but a few days,
Nor an old man who has not fulfilled his days;
For the child shall die one hundred years old,
But the sinner being one hundred years old shall be accursed.
21 They shall build houses and inhabit them;
They shall plant vineyards and eat their fruit.

RevLogos
Dec 15th 2008, 02:09 PM
You know the earth will not be as we know it, all the cities of the world are destroyed and every island fled away. There were no more mountains the earth reverts back to its original form one land mass.



So help me understand something. Is the Millennial reign of Jesus on earth the same as the Kingdom of God? Christ is God and King, and the DOMain is on earth right?

Is the earth fallen in this time? Meaning is there birth, death, disease, natural disaster and all that the Fall brings? Other than a few mountains leveled and no sea, is the earth really different in this time?

Is anyone in heaven while Christ reigns on earth?

And did the OP get answered? Is it heathen or saints that inherit the kingdom on earth?

DurbanDude
Dec 15th 2008, 03:06 PM
It does indeed matter greatly if this is today or a future millennial reign. The millennial reign of Christ is very different than what we have today - as I understand the premil view. This millennial kingdom is supposed to be a material, earthly, physical, civil kingdom like David ruled in the Old Testament.

Recall Ezekiel 39:7 used earlier in this thread:

So will I make my holy name known in the midst of my people Israel; and I will not [let them] pollute my holy name any more: and the heathen shall know that I [am] the LORD, the Holy One in Israel.

To have Jesus reign physically, yet loose most of the souls in half the time, belittles Jesus' authority.

Revelation is highly symbolic throughout. Isn't there a possibility the 1000 is symbolic too?

Psa 105:8 He hath remembered his covenant for ever, the word which he commanded to a thousand generations.

Does this mean everyone forgets at the 1001'th generation?

If I understand you correctly you are saying that the physical reign is somehow more tangible and therefore if Jesus loses most souls with a physical reign He is somehow losing the fight more than if He loses the most souls with a spiritual reigning?

If you understand spirituality you will know that the spiritual things are more powerful and more tangible than the physical, the physical world that we live in now is just a shadow of the reality of the spiritual world.

I think that no matter how you interpret it Jesus is the undisputed winner, despite the path of salvation being narrow for the righteous and wide for the unrighteous. Will just have to agree to disagree here, I feel Jesus is all-powerful either way you interpret Rev 20.

wpm
Dec 15th 2008, 04:32 PM
If I understand you correctly you are saying that the physical reign is somehow more tangible and therefore if Jesus loses most souls with a physical reign He is somehow losing the fight more than if He loses the most souls with a spiritual reigning?

If you understand spirituality you will know that the spiritual things are more powerful and more tangible than the physical, the physical world that we live in now is just a shadow of the reality of the spiritual world.

I think that no matter how you interpret it Jesus is the undisputed winner, despite the path of salvation being narrow for the righteous and wide for the unrighteous. Will just have to agree to disagree here, I feel Jesus is all-powerful either way you interpret Rev 20.

I think Revolvr makes a good point. The Premil argument is that the millennium is so successful that Christ is actually able to subdue sin, death and corruption allowing Him to reign over mortal creatures in unparalleled glory. To have Jesus reign physically over the nations with a rod of iron in power and glory for a thousand years, and then see Satan so easily and decisively snatch it from him is quite inconceivable. To imagine that Satan has the power to undo 1,000 yrs of perfect rule and authority upon the new earth in such a swift overwhelming way must put a major question mark over the validity of such a belief.

The ease that the devil acquires the upper hand on Christ (in this belief) on the new earth is alarming. This is such a turn-around from the invincible picture portrayed by Premillennialism of Christ’s glorious righteous rule. Satan’s assault is so sudden and successful that he gains the immediate and wholesale allegiance of billions of millennial inhabitants. This is certainly incredible by any standard of analyze. One is left asking an another obvious question: how does the millennial kingdom so easily fall apart when Jesus has established such a victorious reign for one thousand years? This can be viewed as nothing less than a complete collapse of the millennial period of influence.

quiet dove
Dec 15th 2008, 07:03 PM
I think Revolvr makes a good point. The Premil argument is that the millennium is so successful that Christ is actually able to subdue sin, death and corruption allowing Him to reign over mortal creatures in unparalleled glory. To have Jesus reign physically over the nations with a rod of iron in power and glory for a thousand years, and then see Satan so easily and decisively snatch it from him is quite inconceivable. To imagine that Satan has the power to undo 1,000 yrs of perfect rule and authority upon the new earth in such a swift overwhelming way must put a major question mark over the validity of such a belief.

The ease that the devil acquires the upper hand on Christ (in this belief) on the new earth is alarming. This is such a turn-around from the invincible picture portrayed by Premillennialism of Christ’s glorious righteous rule. Satan’s assault is so sudden and successful that he gains the immediate and wholesale allegiance of billions of millennial inhabitants. This is certainly incredible by any standard of analyze. One is left asking an another obvious question: how does the millennial kingdom so easily fall apart when Jesus has established such a victorious reign for one thousand years? This can be viewed as nothing less than a complete collapse of the millennial period of influence.


Why is it any more incredible or inconceivable than the view that you have described at present: now is the millennial(1000 yrs) Satan bound on the Cross, Jesus ruling from heaven - yet evil runs rampant over the earth?

If pre mil's description has Christ defeated, amil has Him no less defeated. Only difference is the same argument that keep going around, now is the 1000 yrs/Him ruling from heaven -vs- the future 1000 yrs/Him ruling from earth.

Either scenario has Satan deceiving some people.

wpm
Dec 15th 2008, 08:25 PM
Why is it any more incredible or inconceivable than the view that you have described at present: now is the millennial(1000 yrs) Satan bound on the Cross, Jesus ruling from heaven - yet evil runs rampant over the earth?

If pre mil's description has Christ defeated, amil has Him no less defeated. Only difference is the same argument that keep going around, now is the 1000 yrs/Him ruling from heaven -vs- the future 1000 yrs/Him ruling from earth.

Either scenario has Satan deceiving some people.

It is not the detail of Rev 20 that is the issue, it is the detail that Premil attributes to Rev 20 that is the issue at stake. Amil and Premil are diametrically opposed in their understanding of this much-debated passage. I am of the view that the picture that is painted of the Premil millennium is untenable and does not accord with the detail of Rev 20 or any other reading.

Premil portrays the millennial age as an age of aquarius where sin, death, war and the wicked are banished or subjugated. It is a pristine earth where people live long lives, where the earth submits to the kingship of Christ, where the saints experience unparalleled material and natural blessing.

Amil sees an age like today, where corruption continues, and the majority rebel against the rulership of Christ. The fact that billions of millennial inhabitants adhere to Satan is evidence of this.

Premil sees the binding of Satan as a physical confinement in a physical pit, where he is allowed no contact with humans.

Amil simply sees the binding of Satan as a spiritual containment of Satan in order to facilitate the mass Gospel outreach of the ethnos or Gentiles. They believe Christ secured that with His earthly ministry and through the final legal act of death, burial and resurection.

Premil describes the millennial age as the millennial kingdom. A kingdom that has both saved and unsaved inhabitants. Amil believes only the righteous inherit the kingdom of God when Christ finally appears.

Premil has mortals and immortals (the glorified) inheriting the new earth when Jesus comes. Amil has only the immortal or glorified.

Premil has Christ reigning on earth. Amil contends there is no mention of Christ reigning on earth, His throne is in heaven.

Premil suggests the earth is purified when Jesus comes and Satan is banished to allow the wicked to conquer sina nd live long lives. Amil believes the corruptible millennium happens before Christ comes in all His final power and glory.

Premil place the millennium after Christ's Coming. Amil believes that the millennium relates to the here-and-now and describes the intra-Advent period - a period of sin and increasing rebellion. This fits with the detail of Rev 20.

Premil paints a picture of a pristine new earth, where Christ subdues the wicked in a victorious. Amil believes when Christ appears He puts down wickedness, death, and the wicked. All are resurrected and finally judged.

Premil delays the destruction and judgment of the wicked for 1,000+ yrs.

It is the picture that Premil paints and reality that are the issue here. Premil wants the earth to be different from today, but it is the same. Their millennium is just a mirror of our day with sin abounding, the bondage of corruption prospering and death, funerals, hatred, strife and wickedness persisting.

Finally, the mammoth military coup that sees countless millions (as the sand of the sea) turn their back on Christ and rally to the enemy’s cause, resulting in them assaulting the camp of the saints in incalculable numbers, is hard to accept in the light of what the Second Coming portrays of Christ. Frankly, there seems absolutely no great eternal purpose for Christ to come in power and glory to set up a temporal earthly kingdom that will one day be so forcefully reversed by the evil designs of Satan. I just don’t see any rationale in this. I don’t see this happening. The Bible constantly portrays the kingdom that Christ introduces when He appears as a powerful, glorious and an eternal arrangement in which all evil and rebel and corruption is eradicate. Christ is shown to eternally reign upon a glorified perfect earth with those who the Father has given Him in all eternity with unchallenged glory.

If the millennial kingdom is what Premillennialism says ‘a blanket submission of the nations to the righteous rule of Christ’ then this collapse is even more remarkable. By sheer numbers alone, Satan is able to exert much more influence in such a quick time than Jesus did in one thousand years of righteous governing. This overthrow of the divine work that Christ has built up is undone in lightning time – Scripture describing it as “a little season.” I feel this is one of the most difficult issues to accept for Amils and Postmils with Premil.It is one that lacks any other scriptural corroboration. It paints Satan as stronger than Jesus, whereas Scripture shows Christ as the one who is in the ascendency when He arrives. Satan gains the ascendency at the end, and Christ and God’s people are shown to be major on the defense. This overthrow is one of the most amazing and startling turn-a-rounds in recorded history. Christ righteous millennial reign collapses and is seemingly left in tatters.

Remember the issue is the fact that this is after Jesus comes in all His glory.

John146
Dec 22nd 2008, 08:06 PM
Why is it any more incredible or inconceivable than the view that you have described at present: now is the millennial(1000 yrs) Satan bound on the Cross, Jesus ruling from heaven - yet evil runs rampant over the earth?

If pre mil's description has Christ defeated, amil has Him no less defeated. Only difference is the same argument that keep going around, now is the 1000 yrs/Him ruling from heaven -vs- the future 1000 yrs/Him ruling from earth.

Either scenario has Satan deceiving some people.Even after all this time, it seems you still do not fully understand the difference between premil and amil. Paul (wpm) explained the differences very well. What do you think about what he said in his post? How do you explain Satan getting a number of people so large that it's compared to the sand of the sea to unite together against Christ and the church after just having been on a peaceful earth with Christ reigning on the earth for a thousand years? The amil view doesn't believe in such a scenario at all.

If Christ ruled on the earth the way premil believes He will then I can't imagine that such a huge number of people would then go against Him in a short time just because Satan was loosed. Is Satan able to have a stronger influence on the earth in a short time than Christ could have being on the earth in all His glory for a thousand years? How could that be? That's an issue that amils can't accept about the premil view.

quiet dove
Dec 23rd 2008, 12:06 AM
Even after all this time, it seems you still do not fully understand the difference between premil and amil. Paul (wpm) explained the differences very well. What do you think about what he said in his post? How do you explain Satan getting a number of people so large that it's compared to the sand of the sea to unite together against Christ and the church after just having been on a peaceful earth with Christ reigning on the earth for a thousand years? The amil view doesn't believe in such a scenario at all.

If Christ ruled on the earth the way premil believes He will then I can't imagine that such a huge number of people would then go against Him in a short time just because Satan was loosed. Is Satan able to have a stronger influence on the earth in a short time than Christ could have being on the earth in all His glory for a thousand years? How could that be? That's an issue that amils can't accept about the premil view.

Same way one would explain why Eve and Adam ate the apple, while living in the Garden? Less people, same principle, they believe a lie. At no point has or does God strip men of their free will to choose.

John146
Dec 23rd 2008, 05:42 PM
Same way one would explain why Eve and Adam ate the apple, while living in the Garden? Less people, same principle, they believe a lie. At no point has or does God strip men of their free will to choose.But why would such a vast number believe a lie after being under the leadership of Christ in all His glory for a thousand years? That's what I'm asking you to explain to me. Your simple explanation doesn't really cut it because that would mean you believe that Satan could influence many more people to follow after him in a short time than Christ could in all His glory for a thousand years. In other words, all that influence of Christ being on the earth in all His glory for a thousand years would amount to almost nothing in the end. Is that what you believe?

quiet dove
Dec 23rd 2008, 09:01 PM
But why would such a vast number believe a lie after being under the leadership of Christ in all His glory for a thousand years? That's what I'm asking you to explain to me. Your simple explanation doesn't really cut it because that would mean you believe that Satan could influence many more people to follow after him in a short time than Christ could in all His glory for a thousand years. In other words, all that influence of Christ being on the earth in all His glory for a thousand years would amount to almost nothing in the end. Is that what you believe?

I did answer your question. Men are prone to do as they please, pride. I thought by your views Christ was now ruling, and not only Christ, but all those in Him, why are so many still following after evil? They have a sin nature! Men will chose to rebel then for the same reason they chose to now, Christ is no more or no less ruling during either time frame. And in neither time frame is the free will of men to chose taken from them.

John146
Dec 23rd 2008, 10:07 PM
I did answer your question. Men are prone to do as they please, pride. I thought by your views Christ was now ruling, and not only Christ, but all those in Him, why are so many still following after evil? But He is not here in all His glory for the world to see. Surely you can see the difference between the premil and amil understanding of His reign, right? It's a big difference.


They have a sin nature! Men will chose to rebel then for the same reason they chose to now, Christ is no more or no less ruling during either time frame. And in neither time frame is the free will of men to chose taken from them.You're still not understanding what I'm getting at. Christ is obviously not on the earth in all His glory now. Do you think there would be no difference in what Satan could do if Christ was here physically and visibly in all His glory compared to how it is in the world without Him being here in all His glory? Jesus, despite being here in all His glory, would just kind of sit back and watch this happen?

In other words, would Christ being here in all His glory not really have much impact on the world if Satan was around? You believe He would have a big impact on the world with Satan out of the way but then as soon as Satan is loosed he could spoil it all in a short amount of time? Isn't that a case of giving Satan a bit too much credit by saying he could deceive most people into uniting against Christ and His saints even with Christ right here on the earth in all His glory?

How could Satan undo in a short time what Christ would have accomplished the previous thousand years? That would mean Satan, being unseen, would be more effective at what he was trying to do then Christ would be even while being visible on the earth in all His glory. How can that be? In other words, how could it be that Christ being on the earth in all His glory would be no different and have no more effect than Him not being on the earth in all His glory?

RevLogos
Dec 23rd 2008, 10:27 PM
I did answer your question. Men are prone to do as they please, pride. I thought by your views Christ was now ruling, and not only Christ, but all those in Him, why are so many still following after evil? They have a sin nature! Men will chose to rebel then for the same reason they chose to now, Christ is no more or no less ruling during either time frame. And in neither time frame is the free will of men to chose taken from them.

You seem to be saying that the Millennial reign is just another thousand years like any other. But Jesus reigns physically on this earth, on a physical throne, in a real capital, with all the glory of God right here face to face.

Most believe the only people to inherit this reign are the saints, so all evil, all other religions, all other texts, all other gods, are gone. There is nothing to compete with Jesus. Everyone in all the world participates in the Feast of the Tabernacles every year. If they don't, no rain. Everyone has gone through the glory of Armageddon and seen the pure power of God right here on this earth.

And yet at the end it's all lost in a snap.

wpm
Dec 23rd 2008, 10:48 PM
I did answer your question. Men are prone to do as they please, pride. I thought by your views Christ was now ruling, and not only Christ, but all those in Him, why are so many still following after evil? They have a sin nature! Men will chose to rebel then for the same reason they chose to now, Christ is no more or no less ruling during either time frame. And in neither time frame is the free will of men to chose taken from them.

But in the Premil paradigm (from what I understand) there is an en-mass desertion of countless billions from submission to Christ to embrace Satan as soon as he is released from the abyss. There is a complete overthrow of the peaceful blissful glorious reign of Jesus on earth and He and the glorified saints are forced back to Jerusalem where they are surrounded by these defectors.

In the Amil paradigm this is simply talking about the opening of the Gospel to the Gentiles in the global advance of the Gospel and the end-time curtailment of that. There is a big difference in the 2 schools of thought.

One can't compare apples with oranges.

quiet dove
Dec 24th 2008, 12:07 AM
But He is not here in all His glory for the world to see. Surely you can see the difference between the premil and amil understanding of His reign, right? It's a big difference.

You're still not understanding what I'm getting at. Christ is obviously not on the earth in all His glory now. Do you think there would be no difference in what Satan could do if Christ was here physically and visibly in all His glory compared to how it is in the world without Him being here in all His glory? Jesus, despite being here in all His glory, would just kind of sit back and watch this happen?

In other words, would Christ being here in all His glory not really have much impact on the world if Satan was around? You believe He would have a big impact on the world with Satan out of the way but then as soon as Satan is loosed he could spoil it all in a short amount of time? Isn't that a case of giving Satan a bit too much credit by saying he could deceive most people into uniting against Christ and His saints even with Christ right here on the earth in all His glory?

How could Satan undo in a short time what Christ would have accomplished the previous thousand years? That would mean Satan, being unseen, would be more effective at what he was trying to do then Christ would be even while being visible on the earth in all His glory. How can that be? In other words, how could it be that Christ being on the earth in all His glory would be no different and have no more effect than Him not being on the earth in all His glory?

Like I said, he did it in the Garden of Eden and God walked in the Garden with Adam and Eve. Men chose, there is not other explanation required.

Someone who wanted to deny the indwelling Spirit within believers probably asked the same question, how can those indwelt with the Holy Spirit sin, it's a good question, because they do sin and they are indwelt....so ... go figure.

Isreal walked to the parted Red Sea, Saw Moses glow, followed a cloud, drank from a roc, at manna that fell from the sky and saw many many things of God's presence with them, but they still sinned.

And you want me to explain why it would happen when people see Jesus walking on the earth? Same reason it's always happened, men chose disobedience, rebellion and to be sinful.

And you say a short time, I must have missed the verse that tells us exactly how long it takes, and if the 1000 years is not a specific time frame, how are you coming up with a "short" time frame for Satan to cause rebellion?

quiet dove
Dec 24th 2008, 12:11 AM
But in the Premil paradigm (from what I understand) there is an en-mass desertion of countless billions from submission to Christ to embrace Satan as soon as he is released from the abyss. There is a complete overthrow of the peaceful blissful glorious reign of Jesus on earth and He and the glorified saints are forced back to Jerusalem where they are surrounded by these defectors.

In the Amil paradigm this is simply talking about the opening of the Gospel to the Gentiles in the global advance of the Gospel and the end-time curtailment of that. There is a big difference in the 2 schools of thought.

One can't compare apples with oranges.


Men don't need Satan to rebel, so to say that all are wonderful in love with Jesus during that time is a stretch. The OT passages say that those who do not come to worship Him will not get rain so it is clear that men always have to chose. There has never been a time between God and men when rebellion and disobedience did not come at a price.

Look at Noah, 8 righteous people repopulated the earth and still ended up building the tower of Babel. Those born into the Millennium will have the same ability to chose as we all have, they can accept or reject Christ and from the times when men have seen God, have seen Jesus, we know that even seeing them, men are still able to chose to rebel.

RevLogos
Dec 24th 2008, 12:47 AM
And you say a short time, I must have missed the verse that tells us exactly how long it takes, and if the 1000 years is not a specific time frame, how are you coming up with a "short" time frame for Satan to cause rebellion?
The literal Premil interpretation is Jesus rules for 1000 years:

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

It doesn’t say they live and reign with Christ on earth from Jerusalem, but that’s the Premil assumption.

Satan is bound for 1000 years.

Rev 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

At the end of the 1000 years, Satan is loosed:

Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

And creates an army large as the grains of sand in the sea:

Rev 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

Leaving a small camp of believers, saved by fire from heaven:

Rev 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

Live and reign with Christ for a thousand years then POW! Satan is back; only a few remain with Christ. Since it all happens at the end of the 1000 years, I’d say maybe 6 months to undo it all. Plausible? Some say so. Others do not.

quiet dove
Dec 24th 2008, 02:18 AM
The literal Premil interpretation is Jesus rules for 1000 years:

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

It doesn’t say they live and reign with Christ on earth from Jerusalem, but that’s the Premil assumption.

Satan is bound for 1000 years.

Rev 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

At the end of the 1000 years, Satan is loosed:

Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

And creates an army large as the grains of sand in the sea:

Rev 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

Leaving a small camp of believers, saved by fire from heaven:

Rev 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

Live and reign with Christ for a thousand years then POW! Satan is back; only a few remain with Christ. Since it all happens at the end of the 1000 years, I’d say maybe 6 months to undo it all. Plausible? Some say so. Others do not.

My reference to "short time" john146 used as the time it takes Satan to cause a rebellion and we are not given any time frame for that to happen. And POW! is pretty much how Satan works.

wpm
Dec 24th 2008, 02:48 AM
Men don't need Satan to rebel, so to say that all are wonderful in love with Jesus during that time is a stretch.

When did I say that? The Premil picture is of a victorious subjugation, when in reality like you admitted it is much like today, the world is full of countless pretenders.



The OT passages say that those who do not come to worship Him will not get rain so it is clear that men always have to chose. There has never been a time between God and men when rebellion and disobedience did not come at a price.

Look at Noah, 8 righteous people repopulated the earth and still ended up building the tower of Babel. Those born into the Millennium will have the same ability to chose as we all have, they can accept or reject Christ and from the times when men have seen God, have seen Jesus, we know that even seeing them, men are still able to chose to rebel



There are so many views within Premil, so you need to remind me, what mortals (in your opinion) survive to populate your millennium? What is their ticket to this future supposed millennium?

quiet dove
Dec 24th 2008, 03:08 AM
When did I say that?

This?
Men don't need Satan to rebel, so to say that all are wonderful in love with Jesus during that time is a stretch.I never said you said, I was just answering your question? I don't believe I said you said anything.


The Premil picture is of a victorious subjugation, when in reality like you admitted it is much like today, the world is full of countless pretenders. This is why your continuing to reference "pre mil" in one lump, like everyone pre mil is in agreement, is a problem. I never said the millennium was with out sin and rebellion. I said Christ was ruling from the earth. I'm sure there won't be any problems come up He can't handle.



There are so many views within Premil, so you need to remind me, what mortals (in your opinion) survive to populate your millennium? What is their ticket to this future supposed millennium?The saved, so I guess that makes Jesus their "ticket"

There are a variety of thoughts falling under the pre mil label. Pre trib and post trib both fall under the label. There are many thoughts under many labels.

wpm
Dec 24th 2008, 04:25 AM
I never said you said, I was just answering your question? I don't believe I said you said anything.

This is why your continuing to reference "pre mil" in one lump, like everyone pre mil is in agreement, is a problem. I never said the millennium was with out sin and rebellion. I said Christ was ruling from the earth. I'm sure there won't be any problems come up He can't handle.

The saved, so I guess that makes Jesus their "ticket"

There are a variety of thoughts falling under the pre mil label. Pre trib and post trib both fall under the label. There are many thoughts under many labels.

Why then does God describe "the families of the earth" who are "left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem" as "the heathen" in Zechariah 14:16-21?

quiet dove
Dec 24th 2008, 04:35 AM
Why then does God describe "the families of the earth" who are "left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem" as "the heathen" in Zechariah 14:16-21?

It does not say that all the families of the earth who are left are heathen. It says

Zec 14:18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles. 19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.


It describes those that "come not" as heathen. Not all the families of the earth.

No matter the the way in which God is dealing with men,be it as the time of Adam and Eve, be in as in the OT and Israel from Abraham to Moses to King David, to the times of the prophets and beyon, be it as the present time, or be it in the future Millennium, God has yet to take away the free will of men.

RevLogos
Dec 24th 2008, 04:43 AM
It does not say that all the families of the earth who are left are heathen. It says

Zec 14:18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles. 19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.


It describes those that "come not" as heathen. Not all the families of the earth.

No matter the the way in which God is dealing with men,be it as the time of Adam and Eve, be in as in the OT and Israel from Abraham to Moses to King David, to the times of the prophets and beyon, be it as the present time, or be it in the future Millennium, God has yet to take away the free will of men.

So, to be sure I understand, you are saying that only the saints inherit the Millennial kingdom, but thereafter, by free will, they become heathen?

quiet dove
Dec 24th 2008, 04:55 AM
So, to be sure I understand, you are saying that only the saints inherit the Millennial kingdom, but thereafter, by free will, they become heathen?

No actually, to be sure, you did not understand me, nor is that what I said.

Wouldn't it make more sense that the descendants of those in Christ who live into the Millenium, would just like the rest of us have had to decide, just like the rest of men ever born have had to decide, either to accept or reject Jesus. The ones that "will not" to come, will be the heathen there in described?

Zec 14:17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain. 18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

Unless God decides to start forcing men to accept Him, folks can still "will" or "will not"

wpm
Dec 24th 2008, 05:07 AM
It does not say that all the families of the earth who are left are heathen. It says

Zec 14:18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles. 19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.


It describes those that "come not" as heathen. Not all the families of the earth.

No matter the the way in which God is dealing with men,be it as the time of Adam and Eve, be in as in the OT and Israel from Abraham to Moses to King David, to the times of the prophets and beyon, be it as the present time, or be it in the future Millennium, God has yet to take away the free will of men.

But you describe these millennial earth inheritors as saved. That doesn't sound like a saved description (heathen).

wpm
Dec 24th 2008, 05:09 AM
No actually, to be sure, you did not understand me, nor is that what I said.

Wouldn't it make more sense that the descendants of those in Christ who live into the Millenium, would just like the rest of us have had to decide, just like the rest of men ever born have had to decide, either to accept or reject Jesus. The ones that "will not" to come, will be the heathen there in described?

Zec 14:17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain. 18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

Unless God decides to start forcing men to accept Him, folks can still "will" or "will not"

But you say it is only the saved that enter this age.

quiet dove
Dec 24th 2008, 05:55 AM
But you say it is only the saved that enter this age.

Yea, and they have children who then, like every other man ever born has a choice to make.

John146
Dec 24th 2008, 04:17 PM
Like I said, he did it in the Garden of Eden and God walked in the Garden with Adam and Eve. Men chose, there is not other explanation required.

Someone who wanted to deny the indwelling Spirit within believers probably asked the same question, how can those indwelt with the Holy Spirit sin, it's a good question, because they do sin and they are indwelt....so ... go figure.

Isreal walked to the parted Red Sea, Saw Moses glow, followed a cloud, drank from a roc, at manna that fell from the sky and saw many many things of God's presence with them, but they still sinned.

And you want me to explain why it would happen when people see Jesus walking on the earth? Same reason it's always happened, men chose disobedience, rebellion and to be sinful.But you're not explaining how it could happen despite Jesus being here on the earth in all His glory. Don't you think it would be a bit difficult for anyone to see Jesus in all His glory and then decide they'd rather follow after Satan? How could anyone have any doubts about Jesus when seeing Him in all His glory? That's different than how it is now when no one can see Him. Many people are stubborn and say that they need visible proof before they would believe. I don't see how a number of people as the sand of the sea would see Him in all His glory for a thousand years and then in a short time would decide to rebel against Him.


And you say a short time, I must have missed the verse that tells us exactly how long it takes, and if the 1000 years is not a specific time frame, how are you coming up with a "short" time frame for Satan to cause rebellion?I don't see how you could have missed it. I can't even believe that.

Rev 20
1And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

John146
Dec 24th 2008, 04:24 PM
Yea, and they have children who then, like every other man ever born has a choice to make.And, apparently, despite having peace on the earth for a thousand years and having Jesus Christ in all His glory on the earth all that time, a number of people as the sand of the sea (that's a huge number) will decide to rebel against Him. Does that scenario really make sense to you? Wouldn't that render His earthly reign as mostly fruitless and a failure? What do you believe is the purpose of the supposed earthly millennial reign?

quiet dove
Dec 24th 2008, 08:39 PM
And, apparently, despite having peace on the earth for a thousand years and having Jesus Christ in all His glory on the earth all that time, a number of people as the sand of the sea (that's a huge number) will decide to rebel against Him. Does that scenario really make sense to you? Wouldn't that render His earthly reign as mostly fruitless and a failure? What do you believe is the purpose of the supposed earthly millennial reign?

Does His dieing on the Cross and paying for our sins become fruitless because few, in comparison to all born, will be saved?

Nothing Jesus does is fruitless. If Christ died on the cross paying for our sins and not one person ever believed, what Jesus did would still be victorious. His value is not in us, but our value is in Him.

So no, Jesus reigning upon the earth will be victorious, no matter how many accept or reject.

So yes, the scenario makes perfect sense. Besides, who am I to try and reason with God? I believe that the scripture teaches a Millennial reign, I have not reason, desire or right, to reason with God over it.

Jesus is victorious and all things are His, with or without any man accepting His mercy and grace. He does not depend on men for any fruit or victory, men depend on Him for those things.

wpm
Dec 24th 2008, 09:53 PM
Yea, and they have children who then, like every other man ever born has a choice to make.

This is describing supposed millennial inhabiters. What they end up being is simply heathens. This doesn't fit in with the blissful picture Premils paint of their millennium. In reality it is filled with heathen as the sand of the sea. It is no different from this day. Could I suggest that it is the same day. We are now in the millennium. In stark contrast, the Amil new earth is completely perfect and contains only the righteous.

quiet dove
Dec 24th 2008, 10:41 PM
This is describing supposed millennial inhabiters. What they end up being is simply heathens. This doesn't fit in with the blissful picture Premils paint of their millennium. In reality it is filled with heathen as the sand of the sea. It is no different from this day. Could I suggest that it is the same day. We are now in the millennium. In stark contrast, the Amil new earth is completely perfect and contains only the righteous.

Beyond those who were already saved, and survived the GT everyone else has to make a choice, we had to make a choice, does that make us heathens also? I was under the impression that after one chooses for Christ they are no longer a heathen?

Are we to assume that all will choose to reject Christ?

And I believe that an earth ruled by Christ will be far better than an earth ruled by the any of the thus far: kings, governments, whatever, that have already been.

wpm
Dec 24th 2008, 11:17 PM
Beyond those who were already saved, and survived the GT everyone else has to make a choice, we had to make a choice, does that make us heathens also? I was under the impression that after one chooses for Christ they are no longer a heathen?

Are we to assume that all will choose to reject Christ?

And I believe that an earth ruled by Christ will be far better than an earth ruled by the any of the thus far: kings, governments, whatever, that have already been.

You keep saying this, but I don't see it in Scripture.

1. Where exactly in Revelation 20 or anywhere else does it say that Christ will reign on earth for 1,000 years?

2. What will Christ be doing during that 1,000 years? Please list clear Scriptures.

3. Where is Christ in Satan's “little season”?

4. Does Satan overturn Christ's millennial power in Satan's “little season”?

5. What happens to Christ and the saints that rule with Him on earth after the thousand years expire during Satan’s little season?

6. Do they stop reigning?

bennie
Dec 24th 2008, 11:22 PM
You keep saying this, but I don't see it in Scripture.

1. Where exactly in Revelation 20 or anywhere else does it say that Christ will reign on earth for 1,000 years?

2. What will Christ be doing during that 1,000 years? Please list clear Scriptures.

3. Where is Christ in Satan's “little season”?

4. Does Satan overturn Christ's millennial power in Satan's “little season”?

5. What happens to Christ and the saints that rule with Him on earth after the thousand years expire during Satan’s little season?

6. Do they stop reigning?


i thought QD's post resenated with " every man have a choice" ???

wpm
Dec 24th 2008, 11:28 PM
i thought QD's post resenated with " every man have a choice" ???

But you re-read my question you will see that I am asking about where the Bible shows Christ in a future millennium on earth, and what He is allegedly doing. :)

bennie
Dec 24th 2008, 11:37 PM
But you re-read my question you will see that I am asking about where the Bible shows Christ in a future millennium on earth, and what He is sllegedly doing. :)


you made a statement, then asked a load of questions. circle talk, sorry
I believe the bible does not show Christ on the earth during the millenium.