PDA

View Full Version : How does the gift of healing work?



chad
Dec 2nd 2008, 06:05 PM
I just wanted to ask, if anyone knew how the gift of healing works?
It mentions it in In corinthians 12:8-9.

(1 Cor 12:8 NIV) To one there is given through the Spirit the message of wisdom, to another the message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit,
(1 Cor 12:9 NIV) to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit,


I have heard teaching that says, yes we are given a gift of healing, but we don't actually heal. It is God that heals. We have no power to heal.

So If we have no power to heal and it is God that heals, through our prayers, what does it mean to have the gift of healing?

Is the gift of healing meant to work 100% of the time. So if people are given the gift of healing, are all people they pray for meant to be healed every time?

How do you distinguish a person who has the gift of healing and a fraud?


And what about Acts 19:11-12

(Acts 19:11 NIV) God did extraordinary miracles through Paul,
(Acts 19:12 NIV) so that even handkerchiefs and aprons that had touched him were taken to the sick, and their illnesses were cured and the evil spirits left them.




Thanks


Chad. :confused

VerticalReality
Dec 2nd 2008, 06:31 PM
Peter operated in the gift of healing, and he states something profound in the book of Acts when approaching the beggar at the gate called Beautiful.



Acts 3:1-8
Now Peter and John went up together to the temple at the hour of prayer, the ninth hour. And a certain man lame from his mother’s womb was carried, whom they laid daily at the gate of the temple which is called Beautiful, to ask alms from those who entered the temple; who, seeing Peter and John about to go into the temple, asked for alms. And fixing his eyes on him, with John, Peter said, “Look at us.” So he gave them his attention, expecting to receive something from them. Then Peter said, “Silver and gold I do not have, but what I do have I give you: In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, rise up and walk.” And he took him by the right hand and lifted him up, and immediately his feet and ankle bones received strength. So he, leaping up, stood and walked and entered the temple with them—walking, leaping, and praising God.


Peter makes the statement that it is he who possesses the power to heal this man.

However, later he goes on to state . . .



Acts 3:11-16
Now as the lame man who was healed held on to Peter and John, all the people ran together to them in the porch which is called Solomon’s, greatly amazed. So when Peter saw it, he responded to the people: “Men of Israel, why do you marvel at this? Or why look so intently at us, as though by our own power or godliness we had made this man walk? The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, the God of our fathers, glorified His Servant Jesus, whom you delivered up and denied in the presence of Pilate, when he was determined to let Him go. But you denied the Holy One and the Just, and asked for a murderer to be granted to you, and killed the Prince of life, whom God raised from the dead, of which we are witnesses. And His name, through faith in His name, has made this man strong, whom you see and know. Yes, the faith which comes through Him has given him this perfect soundness in the presence of you all.


Peter had the power within him for this man to be healed. However, the power came through the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. The Lord worked this power through Peter to bring glory to Jesus Christ.

Now, for us to work in this sort of power we have to be in tune with our Lord and Savior. We have to hear Him and do His will. The Word declares to us that only those who do His will can ask anything in His name and it be given them.

chad
Dec 2nd 2008, 06:46 PM
Hi VerticalReality

What do you think about Acts 19:11-12.

The power of healing can be transfered though handkerchiefs and aprons? How does that work?


(Acts 19:11 NIV) God did extraordinary miracles through Paul,
(Acts 19:12 NIV) so that even handkerchiefs and aprons that had touched him were taken to the sick, and their illnesses were cured and the evil spirits left them.


Thanks


Chad. :confused



Peter operated in the gift of healing, and he states something profound in the book of Acts when approaching the beggar at the gate called Beautiful.



Peter makes the statement that it is he who possesses the power to heal this man.

However, later he goes on to state . . .



Peter had the power within him for this man to be healed. However, the power came through the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. The Lord worked this power through Peter to bring glory to Jesus Christ.

Now, for us to work in this sort of power we have to be in tune with our Lord and Savior. We have to hear Him and do His will. The Word declares to us that only those who do His will can ask anything in His name and it be given them.

VerticalReality
Dec 2nd 2008, 07:05 PM
Pretty much the same concept in my opinion as the account with Peter. Personally, I think folks get goofy with that, though. Just the other day I saw a person on television trying to sell "anointed" bread. Unfortunately, folks fall for that nonsense and send their money for these things.

Lamplighter
Dec 2nd 2008, 10:24 PM
The gift of healing in 1 Corinthians 12 is medical, not supernatural.

The Greek word used for healing here is (iama) It means remedy, medicine, a means of healing.

Mysteryman
Dec 2nd 2008, 10:31 PM
Pretty much the same concept in my opinion as the account with Peter. Personally, I think folks get goofy with that, though. Just the other day I saw a person on television trying to sell "anointed" bread. Unfortunately, folks fall for that nonsense and send their money for these things.
Try and not take this the wrong way. But what if we are taking their "joy" away from them, if we comment about those who are goofy that believe in material healing such as a hangkerchief ? Maybe it would be better to give them a christimas tree and tell them to replace their handkerchief with a decorated spruce tree for christimas. Or would both be considered - goofy ?

I might get a spanking for this :rofl:

VerticalReality
Dec 2nd 2008, 11:19 PM
Try and not take this the wrong way. But what if we are taking their "joy" away from them, if we comment about those who are goofy that believe in material healing such as a hangkerchief ? Maybe it would be better to give them a christimas tree and tell them to replace their handkerchief with a decorated spruce tree for christimas. Or would both be considered - goofy ?

I might get a spanking for this :rofl:

I'm really not certain what it is you are trying to say.

Folks believing that God can heal through handkerchiefs aren't the ones who are goofy. It is those who have television programs dedicated to selling the ones that are "anointed" that are goofy to me.

If you are trying to be condescending regarding the leadership of this site and their decision with regards to the Christmas season . . .

1) There is a forum where you can address your concerns . . .

and

2) This one isn't it . . .

If you have an issue with the decision regarding the Christmas threads then ask away in the Chat to the Moderators section of the forum. Doing so would be in line with forum rules and keep you from "getting a spanking".

Bladers
Dec 2nd 2008, 11:29 PM
The gift of healing in 1 Corinthians 12 is medical, not supernatural.

The Greek word used for healing here is (iama) It means remedy, medicine, a means of healing. If that is talking about the natural, then every thing else paul was stating about the gift of the Holy spirit was natural. And Jesus wont tell us to go and heal the sick!

or do you mean, medicine from heaven....

chad
Dec 2nd 2008, 11:30 PM
I have never heard of anointed bread. Is it tasty?

I guess thats he same concept as selling of Holy Water or Holy Oil?

Chad :rolleyes:



Pretty much the same concept in my opinion as the account with Peter. Personally, I think folks get goofy with that, though. Just the other day I saw a person on television trying to sell "anointed" bread. Unfortunately, folks fall for that nonsense and send their money for these things.

chad
Dec 2nd 2008, 11:40 PM
Hi Bladers,

One of the reasons I ask about healing is partly due to the photograph of the person you have in your profile. I have had people ask me what I think of Benny Hinn and is he for real?

I have been taught in church, that it is God that heals and not us. So for example if Benny Hinn prayed for someone and they didn't get healed - does this make him a fraud?

Thats why I am asking how the the gift of healing works?

If God chooses not to heal a person, for whatever reason - is that the fault of the person who has the 'gift of healing' and prays for others to get healed.


Chad :confused



If that is talking about the natural, then every thing else paul was stating about the gift of the Holy spirit was natural. And Jesus wont tell us to go and heal the sick!

or do you mean, medicine from heaven....

Mysteryman
Dec 2nd 2008, 11:46 PM
I'm really not certain what it is you are trying to say.

Folks believing that God can heal through handkerchiefs aren't the ones who are goofy. It is those who have television programs dedicated to selling the ones that are "anointed" that are goofy to me.

If you are trying to be condescending regarding the leadership of this site and their decision with regards to the Christmas season . . .

1) There is a forum where you can address your concerns . . .

and

2) This one isn't it . . .

If you have an issue with the decision regarding the Christmas threads then ask away in the Chat to the Moderators section of the forum. Doing so would be in line with forum rules and keep you from "getting a spanking".
Please keep your sense of humor.

I believe that on TV God is for sale in about every catagory that they preach. Healing is just one facet . Makes me think of the money changers that Jesus threw out of the temple grounds.

I also think that healing by way of a handkerchief is goofy. Unless we believe that it is goofy, that one should wash in the jordon is being goofy, which I don't. Not if the revelation is true ! The problem is, most if not all of what we see on TV is false teachings and false promises, and false healings.

It amazes me how easily people will part with their money, if they think they are getting a good deal. I am waiting for someone on TV to make this statement > "For sale"

I have already heard that you can get something for free, with a gift or love offering attached to it. But people think that they are getting a great deal . A back door way of trying to either buy God or find God.

Keep a smile on your face. I do, works for me ! :lol:

Mysteryman
Dec 2nd 2008, 11:52 PM
Hi Bladers,

One of the reasons I ask about healing is partly due to the photograph of the person you have in your profile. I have had people ask me what I think of Benny Hinn and is he for real?

I have been taught in church, that it is God that heals and not us. So for example if Benny Hinn prayed for someone and they didn't get healed - does this make him a fraud?

Thats why I am asking how the the gift of healing works?

If God chooses not to heal a person, for whatever reason - is that the fault of the person who has the 'gift of healing' and prays for others to get healed.


Chad :confused
Chad

The interesting thing about any subject is , if it is true or not. Healing is one of the gifts of the Spirit. Its one of the nine manifestations mentioned in I Corinth. 12.

But there are false everything within the Word of God, that warns us.

False teacher - false brethren - false Christ , called the anti-christ - false healings etc.

Just someone being healed or the appearance of being healed, is not a guarantee that it is of the one true God.

chad
Dec 2nd 2008, 11:56 PM
What do you mean? If the healing did not come from God, where does it come from?


Chad

The interesting thing about any subject is , if it is true or not. Healing is one of the gifts of the Spirit. Its one of the nine manifestations mentioned in I Corinth. 12.

But there are false everything within the Word of God, that warns us.

False teacher - false brethren - false Christ , called the anti-christ - false healings etc.

Just someone being healed or the appearance of being healed, is not a guarantee that it is of the one true God.

Mysteryman
Dec 3rd 2008, 12:06 AM
What do you mean? If the healing did not come from God, where does it come from?
From the false one, the deceiver.

Some people look ill or sick just because they are possessed with a devil spirit. If a false brethren cast out a devil spirit, and the person looks healed. It is to give a false impression, so that other false things can be done. We are told by God, that the adversary will try "by any means" to deceive.

This is why God tells us, that my people are destroyed for a lack of knowledge. It is our lack of knowledge that allows us to be deceived.

chad
Dec 3rd 2008, 03:28 AM
That sounds creepy


From the false one, the deceiver.

Some people look ill or sick just because they are possessed with a devil spirit. If a false brethren cast out a devil spirit, and the person looks healed. It is to give a false impression, so that other false things can be done. We are told by God, that the adversary will try "by any means" to deceive.

This is why God tells us, that my people are destroyed for a lack of knowledge. It is our lack of knowledge that allows us to be deceived.

thegospelgeek
Dec 3rd 2008, 08:10 PM
The book of Acts is pretty clear how the gift of healing works. Someone who has it (Peter) speaks, touches, sends a hanky, or cast a shadow on someone who is sick and they are healed. No TV cameras, no show, just healings. No excuses as to why they couldn't. They just healed. The gift of healing would be to walk into every hospital one could get to and heal everyone there. End cancer, end Aids, etc. That my friends is the Biblical Gift of Healing. Peter never told the paralized man that he had to have faith, he never told him repeat after me, never asked if he believed, he just said "Arise and walk"

Mysteryman
Dec 3rd 2008, 08:13 PM
The book of Acts is pretty clear how the gift of healing works. Someone who has it (Peter) speaks, touches, sends a hanky, or cast a shadow on someone who is sick and they are healed. No TV cameras, no show, just healings. No excuses as to why they couldn't. They just healed. The gift of healing would be to walk into every hospital one could get to and heal everyone there. End cancer, end Aids, etc. That my friends is the Biblical Gift of Healing. Peter never told the paralized man that he had to have faith, he never told him repeat after me, never asked if he believed, he just said "Arise and walk"
He had to have faith !

Or else he would not even listen to Peter telling him to "arise and walk".

VerticalReality
Dec 3rd 2008, 08:16 PM
The book of Acts is pretty clear how the gift of healing works. Someone who has it (Peter) speaks, touches, sends a hanky, or cast a shadow on someone who is sick and they are healed. No TV cameras, no show, just healings. No excuses as to why they couldn't. They just healed. The gift of healing would be to walk into every hospital one could get to and heal everyone there. End cancer, end Aids, etc. That my friends is the Biblical Gift of Healing. Peter never told the paralized man that he had to have faith, he never told him repeat after me, never asked if he believed, he just said "Arise and walk"

Not even Jesus Christ or the apostles healed everyone. That is not how the gift of healing operates. You don't just start walking up to random people declaring them healed. It is all by the leading of His Spirit.

Mysteryman
Dec 3rd 2008, 08:17 PM
That sounds creepy
You mean like having ants in your pants ? :lol:

It shouldn't sound creepy ! Its the truth ! And TV is the greatest medium for this kind of stuff ! There are suppose to be witnesses. These are accountable people you know and trust.

What witnesses does anyone have watching a TV program ? :eek:

thegospelgeek
Dec 3rd 2008, 08:19 PM
Not even Jesus Christ or the apostles healed everyone. That is not how the gift of healing operates. You don't just start walking up to random people declaring them healed. It is all by the leading of His Spirit.

Please show me a scripture in the book of Acts where Peter told someone to be healed and they were not.

thegospelgeek
Dec 3rd 2008, 08:21 PM
He had to have faith !

Or else he would not even listen to Peter telling him to "arise and walk".

The faith was demonstrated after the healing. The healing was from God through the Apostolic gift of healing. The Apostles used this to bear witness that they were from God. The same reason Christ did.

Mysteryman
Dec 3rd 2008, 08:23 PM
Please show me a scripture in the book of Acts where Peter told someone to be healed and they were not.

:B:B:B:B:B:B:B:B

:giveup::giveup::giveup::giveup::giveup::giveup::g iveup:

Mysteryman
Dec 3rd 2008, 08:27 PM
The faith was demonstrated after the healing. The healing was from God through the Apostolic gift of healing. The Apostles used this to bear witness that they were from God. The same reason Christ did.
The gift of healing, yes.

But there must be faith first !

Jesus Christ did not heal where there was no faith/believing - unbelief. Matthew 13:58

thegospelgeek
Dec 3rd 2008, 08:37 PM
The gift of healing, yes.

But there must be faith first !

Jesus Christ did not heal where there was no faith/believing - unbelief. Matthew 13:58

Don't get too frustrated with me yet, I think we are both in agreement, at least to some degree.

God heals, when God wants to. These charlatans(sp) are going around pronouncing that they have the gift of healing when in reality they do not. When I witness one of them do as Peter did then I will believe them. The danger of this is tremendous. They proclaim someone as healed who is not. This person then loses faith in God. Peter used the healing to build faith, not destroy it.

Sometimes people are sick because they sin. Sometimes people are sick so God may be glorified when they are healed. Sometimes they are sick as a part of God plan to leave this world. Sometimes they are sick just because we live in a broken world. As you can see, there is a place for healing. Just tat it comes from God, not man. The Apostolic gift of healing has not been demonstrated for centuries. What we see proclaimed as it today, does not follow the example set for us in scripture.

thegospelgeek
Dec 3rd 2008, 08:48 PM
From the false one, the deceiver.

Some people look ill or sick just because they are possessed with a devil spirit. If a false brethren cast out a devil spirit, and the person looks healed. It is to give a false impression, so that other false things can be done. We are told by God, that the adversary will try "by any means" to deceive.

This is why God tells us, that my people are destroyed for a lack of knowledge. It is our lack of knowledge that allows us to be deceived.

Agree 100%

Satan is a cheap imitation of a REAL God.

In Matthew people stand before God and proclaim their miracles and wonders works. Christ does not deny their claims of performing these miracles but he does say Depart from me, I never knew you. Not all miracles are fake, but no all are from God.

(Mat 7:22) Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
(Mat 7:23) And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Mysteryman
Dec 3rd 2008, 08:49 PM
Don't get too frustrated with me yet, I think we are both in agreement, at least to some degree.

God heals, when God wants to. These charlatans(sp) are going around pronouncing that they have the gift of healing when in reality they do not. When I witness one of them do as Peter did then I will believe them. The danger of this is tremendous. They proclaim someone as healed who is not. This person then loses faith in God. Peter used the healing to build faith, not destroy it.

Sometimes people are sick because they sin. Sometimes people are sick so God may be glorified when they are healed. Sometimes they are sick as a part of God plan to leave this world. Sometimes they are sick just because we live in a broken world. As you can see, there is a place for healing. Just tat it comes from God, not man. The Apostolic gift of healing has not been demonstrated for centuries. What we see proclaimed as it today, does not follow the example set for us in scripture.
Healing in the scriptures is still being applied accurately today. But maybe you are looking at those places where it is not being applied correctly.

Never judge according to those who are in the wrong. Like TV , its a side show .....

Yes, some are not sick as far as any illness, but there is a devil spirit(s) that is the main cause.

While others are sick, and have certain illnesses. But healing is not to be performed unless you get a phone call from God above = revelation. There first needs to be faith. And that includes the faith of the one who lays hands on or prays for someone.

And I am not frustrated with you. But never make a blank statement about us looking into scripture to find where Peter was healing someone , and we are to show you that the healing didn't take place. Its a redundant statement, understand ?

VerticalReality
Dec 3rd 2008, 09:02 PM
Please show me a scripture in the book of Acts where Peter told someone to be healed and they were not.

Please show me one Scripture where Peter walked up to every single person he saw with something wrong with them and declared them healed. He didn't. Also, why do you think Paul left Trophimus sick? He just felt like it?

thegospelgeek
Dec 3rd 2008, 09:11 PM
Healing in the scriptures is still being applied accurately today. But maybe you are looking at those places where it is not being applied correctly.

Never judge according to those who are in the wrong. Like TV , its a side show .....

Yes, some are not sick as far as any illness, but there is a devil spirit(s) that is the main cause.

While others are sick, and have certain illnesses. But healing is not to be performed unless you get a phone call from God above = revelation. There first needs to be faith. And that includes the faith of the one who lays hands on or prays for someone.

And I am not frustrated with you. But never make a blank statement about us looking into scripture to find where Peter was healing someone , and we are to show you that the healing didn't take place. Its a redundant statement, understand ?

Agreed. Healing is properly taught and practiced in many churches today. I have been healed and know many others who have also. I think maybe the confusion stems from the fact that I consider healing today different than "The Gift of Healing" which I do not think exist today. Maybe I am splitting hairs, but too many are desroying people faith with false "Faith Healers" such as Bennie Hinn.

Mysteryman
Dec 3rd 2008, 09:20 PM
Agreed. Healing is properly taught and practiced in many churches today. I have been healed and know many others who have also. I think maybe the confusion stems from the fact that I consider healing today different than "The Gift of Healing" which I do not think exist today. Maybe I am splitting hairs, but too many are desroying people faith with false "Faith Healers" such as Bennie Hinn.
Well, the gifts of healing still do exist today. If they didn't, then healing would not be available according to I Corinth. chapter 12 and the fact that the healings that took place after pentecost were from the gifts of healings.

thegospelgeek
Dec 3rd 2008, 09:21 PM
Please show me one Scripture where Peter walked up to every single person he saw with something wrong with them and declared them healed. He didn't. Also, why do you think Paul left Trophimus sick? He just felt like it?

Exactly my point. If you study the miracles of the Apostles you will notice that the majority of them are performed when they first enter into an area, thus bearing witness that they are who they say they are. As they became established the need for and thus the performance of these miracles decreased. You can also use Timothy as an example, Paul thought of him as a son, yet he advised him to drink some wine for his stomach instead of healing him, the Apostolic gifts were beginning to vanish. Maybe it was because of lack of faith, maybe because of the need for them. I don't doubt Paul or Timothy's faith.

I want to be sure that you don't think I disbelieve healing. God does still heal. But the OP was about the "Gift of healing", I assumed the topic was the Apostolic Gift of healing demonstrated by the Apostles in the book of Acts.

thegospelgeek
Dec 3rd 2008, 09:23 PM
Well, the gifts of healing still do exist today. If they didn't, then healing would not be available according to I Corinth. chapter 12 and the fact that the healings that took place after pentecost were from the gifts of healings.

Maybe I'm dense here but are you talking about people being healed, or an individual who can go around and heal people like Peter did?

VerticalReality
Dec 3rd 2008, 09:52 PM
Exactly my point. If you study the miracles of the Apostles you will notice that the majority of them are performed when they first enter into an area, thus bearing witness that they are who they say they are. As they became established the need for and thus the performance of these miracles decreased. You can also use Timothy as an example, Paul thought of him as a son, yet he advised him to drink some wine for his stomach instead of healing him, the Apostolic gifts were beginning to vanish. Maybe it was because of lack of faith, maybe because of the need for them. I don't doubt Paul or Timothy's faith.

I want to be sure that you don't think I disbelieve healing. God does still heal. But the OP was about the "Gift of healing", I assumed the topic was the Apostolic Gift of healing demonstrated by the Apostles in the book of Acts.

I see no evidence in the Scriptures suggesting that the gift of healing was decreasing or that the need for it was diminishing. The last person in the book of Acts that needed healing got it.

Timothy didn't need healing, IMO. He needed to quit drinking bad water. If the gift of healing has somehow decreased or diminished then I guess someone has a lot of explaining to do as far as some of the things I've witnessed personally.

Mysteryman
Dec 3rd 2008, 10:16 PM
Maybe I'm dense here but are you talking about people being healed, or an individual who can go around and heal people like Peter did?
Both, people being healed, by individuals who operate the gift of healing, which is one of the nine manifestations of the Spirit. Along with speaking in tongues etc.

Speaking in tongues happened on the day of pentecost and continues. So does the gift of healing, and the other 7 manifestations ,which makes 9 manifestations in all. They are still in operation.

Bladers
Dec 3rd 2008, 10:36 PM
You can never fully understand the gift of healing until your under it, dont be quick to judge. your not GOD!

The gifts of healing operates in different ways. but you dont just walk into every hospital and start laying hands on the sick. No it does not work like that. Thats what people think, when they hear that someone has a gift of healing. They say "If he really does, why dont he empty out all the hospitals".... NO

chad
Dec 4th 2008, 03:33 AM
I have heard that the gift of healing does not operate when the Holy spirit is not present. Eg: No holy spirit - no healing.

I guess that lines up with the word, where Each is given a gift as determined by the holy spirit.

I guess the holy spirit determines when to activate the gift and when not to?

Chad :confused

edaps7
Dec 4th 2008, 04:32 AM
Chad,

I wanted to chime in here before you get lead astray. I have been debating this very topic with a close friend of mine for a few weeks now. I did a word study on heal-healing-healed etc in the bible the only one I can find that would even remotely pertain to us today is james 5. I interpret this passage as mental, not physical, healing but even so my problem with "healing" is that it makes God a puppet. God is no puppet, so IMO healing is not for us today. Notice that each time healing is mentioned in the new testament they don't ask God to heal, they just heal people. This is because God gave them this ability...HE GAVE THEM THE ABILITY, this is important becasue, again, God is no puppet. He blessed these people with the ability to heal, they didnt ask. People today think if they ask God he will respond to them and either heal, or not heal. This is COMPLETLY false. God doesnt respond to us in this way. If he did he would be reduce to a puppet, that we can control when we need a "healing".

LookingUp
Dec 4th 2008, 04:52 AM
Don't get too frustrated with me yet, I think we are both in agreement, at least to some degree.

God heals, when God wants to. These charlatans(sp) are going around pronouncing that they have the gift of healing when in reality they do not. When I witness one of them do as Peter did then I will believe them. The danger of this is tremendous. They proclaim someone as healed who is not. This person then loses faith in God. Peter used the healing to build faith, not destroy it.

Sometimes people are sick because they sin. Sometimes people are sick so God may be glorified when they are healed. Sometimes they are sick as a part of God plan to leave this world. Sometimes they are sick just because we live in a broken world. As you can see, there is a place for healing. Just tat it comes from God, not man. The Apostolic gift of healing has not been demonstrated for centuries. What we see proclaimed as it today, does not follow the example set for us in scripture.What a relief to see someone else voice this reality.

I have not finished reading these posts, so maybe you mention this later... but what have you determined is the reason for this gift being out of operation today?

VerticalReality
Dec 4th 2008, 05:04 AM
Notice that each time healing is mentioned in the new testament they don't ask God to heal, they just heal people. This is because God gave them this ability...HE GAVE THEM THE ABILITY, this is important becasue, again, God is no puppet. He blessed these people with the ability to heal, they didnt ask.

Same concept today as well. When Jesus said that if we pray to this mountain to be removed and be cast into the sea and do not doubt in our heart then it would be done for us he didn't say ask God to move the mountain. He said to speak to the mountain.

The same holds true today. If the Lord instructs that someone be healed . . . we do not then turn around and ask God if He will do it. He gives this information as instruction for us to speak it in faith. Just as with Ezekiel when the Lord told him to prophecy to those dry bones. Ezekiel didn't turn around after God's instruction and ask, "Lord will you make these dry bones live?"

Nope . . . he commanded and prophecied the word of the Lord as he was instructed and those dry bones came together. The reason you do not see such healings today as you see detailed in the Scriptures are for a couple of reasons . . .

1) Not many folks are that tuned into God's voice these days to hear Him when He speaks and commands something to be done . . .

and

2) Not many folks today have faith enough to speak to that mountain to begin with

VerticalReality
Dec 4th 2008, 05:05 AM
What a relief to see someone else voice this reality.

Is it reality or just your experience?

LookingUp
Dec 4th 2008, 05:36 AM
Same concept today as well. When Jesus said that if we pray to this mountain to be removed and be cast into the sea and do not doubt in our heart then it would be done for us he didn't say ask God to move the mountain. He said to speak to the mountain.

The same holds true today. If the Lord instructs that someone be healed . . . we do not then turn around and ask God if He will do it. He gives this information as instruction for us to speak it in faith. Just as with Ezekiel when the Lord told him to prophecy to those dry bones. Ezekiel didn't turn around after God's instruction and ask, "Lord will you make these dry bones live?"

Nope . . . he commanded and prophecied the word of the Lord as he was instructed and those dry bones came together. The reason you do not see such healings today as you see detailed in the Scriptures are for a couple of reasons . . .

1) Not many folks are that tuned into God's voice these days to hear Him when He speaks and commands something to be done . . .

and

2) Not many folks today have faith enough to speak to that mountain to begin with
I have known folks that are so in tune with God's voice and have such faith that miracles do often take place in their lives. God is more a reality to them than their right arm is to them. However, they do not cast out demons, speak in new tongues, lay hands on the sick & they recover. The word of truth that they preach is not "confirmed by signs which follow those who believe" (Mark 16).

So, your #1 & #2 are not very convincing.

VerticalReality
Dec 4th 2008, 06:00 AM
I have known folks that are so in tune with God's voice and have such faith that miracles do often take place in their lives. God is more a reality to them than their right arm is to them. However, they do not cast out demons, speak in new tongues, lay hands on the sick & they recover. The word of truth that they preach is not "confirmed by signs which follow those who believe" (Mark 16).

So, your #1 & #2 are not very convincing.

So the fact that none of those things follow them must mean that they no longer exist? In other words, you are allowing their experience, or lack thereof, determine what is applicable today . . . yes?

chad
Dec 4th 2008, 07:56 AM
What about people like Benny Hinn and other pastors who have a healing ministry and they pray for people who are sick.


Chad :confused



Chad,

IMO healing is not for us today. Notice that each time healing is mentioned in the new testament they don't ask God to heal, they just heal people. This is because God gave them this ability...HE GAVE THEM THE ABILITY, this is important becasue, again, God is no puppet. He blessed these people with the ability to heal, they didnt ask. People today think if they ask God he will respond to them and either heal, or not heal. This is COMPLETLY false. God doesnt respond to us in this way. If he did he would be reduce to a puppet, that we can control when we need a "healing".

Mysteryman
Dec 4th 2008, 12:12 PM
I have heard that the gift of healing does not operate when the Holy spirit is not present. Eg: No holy spirit - no healing.

I guess that lines up with the word, where Each is given a gift as determined by the holy spirit.

I guess the holy spirit determines when to activate the gift and when not to?

Chad :confused
Remember this !

The Spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak.

Also remember this !

God might be telling you not to heal someone, and that can only come by the manifestations of - "Word of knowledge"

Mysteryman
Dec 4th 2008, 12:31 PM
What about people like Benny Hinn and other pastors who have a healing ministry and they pray for people who are sick.


Chad :confused
I thought I explained this to you already. Or , you just do not want to listen to what I say to you.

These are - "side shows". They are a means to the which is a means by which to deceive.

Witnesses are "needed" !

TV is a medium by which there are no witnesses. They are not people you know and trust. And even if they were, the very fact that they perform such healing on TV is to convince you of their ministry, shows you right there that this is not of God !

Someone being healed is not suppose to convince you ! Believing is based upon truth, not some type of miracle. Healings do occur, but are they of the one true God ?

The woman in Mark chapter 5 , the woman with the issue of blood. She was healed by her faith. This woman was healed as Jesus was going to a house where a 12 year old daughter was dying. Before Jesus got to the house, this daughter died. Jesus went in unto her, and kept out all those who were of unbelief. Read Luke 8:49 - 56. Look what Jesus tells the parents in Luke 8:56 !

Thaddaeus
Dec 4th 2008, 01:29 PM
ok I glanced at every posting in this thread. My 2 cents are this

Mr 16:14Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen.Mr 16:15And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.Mr 16:16He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.Mr 16:17And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;Mr 16:18They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.Mr 16:19So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.Mr 16:20And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.

Note I have been preached all my life that Jesus was talking to the disciples only, when He told them to go preach, baptize, castout devils, speak with new tongues, take up serpents, drink any deadly thing and not be harmed, Lay hands on the sick and they shall recover. But look at these scriptures closely, Jesus told the disciples to go preach and baptize, and signs would follow those that believe what the disciples were preaching and those signs were castout devils, speak with new tongues, take up serpents, drink any deadly thing and not be harmed, Lay hands on the sick and they shall recover. now some say that the gift of tongues are the evidence(and only evidence) of being saved , but Jesus said if we were saved we would be able to castout devils, speak with new tongues, take up serpents, drink any deadly thing and not be harmed, Lay hands on the sick and they shall recover.
so here is the question to those you preach or even believe that all these gifts died with the 12 apostles If Jesus was talking to only the disciples/ Apostles and only intended for them to do all these things why did he say that those that believe will have these signs to follow them , and if all this that Jesus told the disciples ceased with the disciples, how did paul get to do them, no where in the bible does it say that paul replaced Matthias as the 12th apostle this is false teaching and even if it was true, paul was not there when Jesus told the disciples to do all these things in Mark 16.and if these (mark 16) was only intended toward the orginal disciples, then why are we still preaching and baptizing. we are not suppose to just take part of the Bible but every word that cometh from God, so if to castout devils, speak with new tongues, take up serpents, drink any deadly thing and not be harmed, Lay hands on the sick and they shall recover. died with the disciples shouldn't preaching and baptizing also be dead?

I want to comment on one more question brought up if healing is for today why are the Hospitals full of sick people, why don't benny henn, todd bently,w.v. Grant and all other faith healers go clean out the hospitals, because Jesus was in his own country and the Bible said
Mt 13:58And he did not many mighty works there because of their unbelief.

the reason we can't clean out the hospitals, because most in there, have been taught that God don't work that way anymore. Look at it like Bro. todd bently said Jesus commanded the disciples in mark 16 to go preach and baptise He commanded those that believe to lay hands on the sick and said if we did they would recover, so Todd said that he was praying to God one day about healing someone and ask God to heal this person, and God said to him , why are you bringing this to me I have already told you in mark 16, to go lay hands on the sick, so why bring this back up to me , just go do what I have told you to do.

I want to share this I believe for 30 years that God don't work this way anymore, that if i spoke in tongues that it was the works of the devil, then a friend invited me to a meeting that Bro. Tommy Zito was preaching Tommy ask those that were sceptic, to come forth and ask God to give them what He had in store for them, I did , and God gave me what was instore for me, His Spirit nailed me to the floor and held me there for a while, opened mine eyes toward the baptizen of the Holy Spirit. Now this is just one of many reports on my God that i could give you , then I prayed over a lady with breast cancer one day, the next doctor visit she was told that the cancer had not gotten any larger as it should have , but actually gotten smaller , if the doctor had not known where to look that he wouldn't have even noticed it. That's my God, I have had to bury my own daughter at 19 yrs. old because of my unbelief, my prayer is that God can use me that no other parent ever has to bury a child, I have a good friend that has been told unless God steps in that her Child will die and she won't let me or any other lays hands on them because she has been taught that God don't work that way anymore.

I preach that if we find something in the old testament and find it confirmed again in the new testament , that we can pretty much bank on it
Isa 53:5 (http://bibleforums.org/isa+53:5)But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with HIS STRIPES we are healed.

1pe 2:24 (http://bibleforums.org/1pe+2:24)Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye WERE HEALED.
Need I say anymore?

Joh 14:15 (http://bibleforums.org/joh+14:15)If ye love me, KEEP MY COMMANDMENTS.in mark 16 He told those that believed to lay hands on the sick, will you obey Him?

1sa 15:22 (http://bibleforums.org/1sa+15:22)And Samuel said, Hath the LORD as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey is better THAN SACRIFICE, and to hearken than the fat of rams

Gregg
Dec 4th 2008, 02:03 PM
ok I glanced at every posting in this thread. My 2 cents are this

Mr 16:14Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen.Mr 16:15And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.Mr 16:16He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.Mr 16:17And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;Mr 16:18They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.Mr 16:19So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.Mr 16:20And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.

Note I have been preached all my life that Jesus was talking to the disciples only, when He told them to go preach, baptize, castout devils, speak with new tongues, take up serpents, drink any deadly thing and not be harmed, Lay hands on the sick and they shall recover. But look at these scriptures closely, Jesus told the disciples to go preach and baptize, and signs would follow those that believe what the disciples were preaching and those signs were castout devils, speak with new tongues, take up serpents, drink any deadly thing and not be harmed, Lay hands on the sick and they shall recover. now some say that the gift of tongues are the evidence(and only evidence) of being saved , but Jesus said if we were saved we would be able to castout devils, speak with new tongues, take up serpents, drink any deadly thing and not be harmed, Lay hands on the sick and they shall recover.
so here is the question to those you preach or even believe that all these gifts died with the 12 apostles If Jesus was talking to only the disciples/ Apostles and only intended for them to do all these things why did he say that those that believe will have these signs to follow them , and if all this that Jesus told the disciples ceased with the disciples, how did paul get to do them, no where in the bible does it say that paul replaced Matthias as the 12th apostle this is false teaching and even if it was true, paul was not there when Jesus told the disciples to do all these things in Mark 16.and if these (mark 16) was only intended toward the orginal disciples, then why are we still preaching and baptizing. we are not suppose to just take part of the Bible but every word that cometh from God, so if to castout devils, speak with new tongues, take up serpents, drink any deadly thing and not be harmed, Lay hands on the sick and they shall recover. died with the disciples shouldn't preaching and baptizing also died.

I want to comment on one more question brought up if healing is for today why are the Hospitals full of sick people, why don't benny henn, todd bently,w.v. Grant and all other faith healers go clean out the hospitals, because Jesus was in his own country and the Bible said
Mt 13:58And he did not many mighty works there because of their unbelief.

the reason we can't clean out the hospitals, because most in there, have been taught that God don't work that way anymore. Look at it like Bro. todd bently said Jesus commanded the disciples in mark 16 to go preach and baptise He commanded those that believe to lay hands on the sick and said if we did they would recover, so Todd said that he was praying to God one day about healing someone and ask God to heal this person, and God said to him , why are you bringing this to me I have already told you in mark 16, to go lay hands on the sick, so why bring this back up to me , just go do what I have told you to do.

I want to share this I believe for 30 years that God don't work this way anymore, that if i spoke in tongues that it was the works of the devil, then a friend invited me to a meeting that Bro. Tommy Zito was preaching Tommy ask those that were sceptic, to come forth and ask God to give them what He had in store for them, I did , and God gave me what was instore for me, His Spirit nailed me to the floor and held me there for a while, opened mine eyes toward the baptizen of the Holy Spirit. Now this is just one of many reports on my God that i could give you , then I prayed over a lady with breast cancer one day, the next doctor visit she was told that the cancer had not gotten any larger as it should have , but actually gotten smaller , if the doctor had not known where to look that he wouldn't have even noticed it. That's my God, I have had to bury my own daughter at 19 yrs. old because of my unbelief, my prayer is that God can use me that no other parent ever has to bury a child, I have a good friend that has been told unless God steps in that her Child will die and she won't let me ar any other lays hands on them because she has been taught that God don't work that way anymore.

I preach that if we find something in the old testament and find it confirmed again in the new testament , that we can pretty much bank on it
Isa 53:5 (http://bibleforums.org/isa+53:5)But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with HIS STRIPES we are healed.

1pe 2:24 (http://bibleforums.org/1pe+2:24)Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye WERE HEALED.
Need I say anymore?


Thaddaeus, thank you for your testimony.

I have a whole set of different issues.

I would like to think that if I had the gift of healing, I would use it to heal people and glorify Jesus Christ. In reality, I would be tempted to glorify myself, or try to use the gift to "earn" my way to Heaven. I do not think that it would take long and I would forget who was really doing the healing. I also come from a background whose earthly father made me feel like nothing I have ever done was good enough. So I have a tendency to look for approval sometimes more than I should. I don't think it would take long for me to be full of myself, thinking that God elevated me above others. With great gifts come great responsiblity.

Lastly, making money healing others has got to be an abomination to God. Making one think that the reason that they are not healed is lack of faith or that ones faith is not good enough, or that one is not doing it right would be in the same category.

Lord, if my faith is not real, then PLEASE FIX ME!! In Jesus name I pray Amen. It can't get any more real for me than that.

Thaddaeus
Dec 4th 2008, 02:09 PM
[quote=Mysteryman;1891608]I thought I explained this to you already. Or , you just do not want to listen to what I say to you.

These are - "side shows". They are a means to the which is a means by which to deceive.

Witnesses are "needed" !

TV is a medium by which there are no witnesses. They are not people you know and trust. And even if they were, the very fact that they perform such healing on TV is to convince you of their ministry, shows you right there that this is not of God !

Someone being healed is not suppose to convince you ! Believing is based upon truth, not some type of miracle. Healings do occur, but are they of the one true God ?


Joh 2:23 (http://bibleforums.org/joh+2:23)Now when he was in Jerusalem at the passover, in the feast day, many BELIEVED in his name, when they saw the miracles which he did.

I think this statement that you just made goes against john 2;23 miracles were used to convince people to believe , what do you think?

Joh 4:48 (http://bibleforums.org/joh+4:48)Then said Jesus unto him, Except ye see SIGNS AND WONDERS, ye will not believe.

VerticalReality
Dec 4th 2008, 02:40 PM
What about people like Benny Hinn and other pastors who have a healing ministry and they pray for people who are sick.


Chad :confused

Do not focus on supposed miracles, signs and wonders. Focus on the teaching. Those who only seek after a sign will be deceived by teachings that are not of the Lord. I'm not making any claims about Benny Hinn or the like. I'm saying that we need to grow in the Lord and His Word so that we can discern between good and evil. Does the teachings align with God's Word? What fruit is being produced? Is the fruit good or bad? Our Lord said that we would know them by their fruit . . .

Also realize as well that God can work in the midst of error and nobody is perfect. Just because someone isn't absolutely perfect on everything doesn't mean that God is not using them and they are of the devil or something. A lot of times people put others under a microscope that even they themselves aren't willing to be put under. If we trust in the Lord and we allow His Spirit to lead us into all truth then we will be okay. There has been times during my growth in the Lord that I have been uncertain about some situations that I was headed into. I would simply pray in faith and ask the Lord to show me what is of Him and what is not. I would ask Him to give me wisdom to make the decision that's in His will for me. He has never failed me. We just need to seek Him and trust what He tells us.

Veretax
Dec 4th 2008, 02:44 PM
let's not forget the woman who believed that if she could just touch Jesus' robe she would be healed. Did not Christ tell her, that her faith had healed her?


So i think in regards to that passage in acts 19, faith would have to be involved.

Mysteryman
Dec 4th 2008, 02:52 PM
[quote=Mysteryman;1891608]I thought I explained this to you already. Or , you just do not want to listen to what I say to you.

These are - "side shows". They are a means to the which is a means by which to deceive.

Witnesses are "needed" !

TV is a medium by which there are no witnesses. They are not people you know and trust. And even if they were, the very fact that they perform such healing on TV is to convince you of their ministry, shows you right there that this is not of God !

Someone being healed is not suppose to convince you ! Believing is based upon truth, not some type of miracle. Healings do occur, but are they of the one true God ?


Joh 2:23 (http://bibleforums.org/joh+2:23)Now when he was in Jerusalem at the passover, in the feast day, many BELIEVED in his name, when they saw the miracles which he did.

I think this statement that you just made goes against john 2;23 miracles were used to convince people to believe , what do you think?

Joh 4:48 (http://bibleforums.org/joh+4:48)Then said Jesus unto him, Except ye see SIGNS AND WONDERS, ye will not believe.

Mysteryman
Dec 4th 2008, 02:54 PM
[quote=Mysteryman;1891608]I thought I explained this to you already. Or , you just do not want to listen to what I say to you.

These are - "side shows". They are a means to the which is a means by which to deceive.

Witnesses are "needed" !

TV is a medium by which there are no witnesses. They are not people you know and trust. And even if they were, the very fact that they perform such healing on TV is to convince you of their ministry, shows you right there that this is not of God !

Someone being healed is not suppose to convince you ! Believing is based upon truth, not some type of miracle. Healings do occur, but are they of the one true God ?


Joh 2:23 (http://bibleforums.org/joh+2:23)Now when he was in Jerusalem at the passover, in the feast day, many BELIEVED in his name, when they saw the miracles which he did.

I think this statement that you just made goes against john 2;23 miracles were used to convince people to believe , what do you think?

Joh 4:48 (http://bibleforums.org/joh+4:48)Then said Jesus unto him, Except ye see SIGNS AND WONDERS, ye will not believe.
No, this verse does not go against what I said. They believed when they saw the miracles. It is the same with doubting Thomas. They do not believe "until" they see.

The woman with the issue of blood believed before she touched the hem of his garment. Jesus told her that her faith had healed her. Faith is the substance of things hoped for the evidence of things yet not seen.

Sings and wonders follow those who believe.

VerticalReality
Dec 4th 2008, 02:57 PM
Making one think that the reason that they are not healed is lack of faith or that ones faith is not good enough, or that one is not doing it right would be in the same category.

I would be very careful making that statement. Even our Lord Jesus Christ questioned the faith of his disciples. These are the same disciples that walked with him the entire 3 and half years or so of His ministry. These are the same disciples that would later be called apostles Peter, James, John, etc. If they could lack faith what makes us think that we can't? When Jesus Christ went to his hometown it states that it was because of their unbelief that He couldn't heal many of them there. In my opinion the larger error is to start questioning God when healing doesn't take place. People are so quick to blame God when healing doesn't take place and accuse Him of just not wanting to do it. People have a tendency to not want to take any responsibility for anything going on within themselves. It's much easier for folks to place the responsibility on God and say that if He really wanted to He could heal. I think many people have an issue with pride and refuse to acknowledge the fact that maybe they just don't believe. I think many refuse to accept the fact that they don't have perfect faith and they tend to doubt God sometimes. Instead of taking that sort of responsibility many would rather blame God and just use Him as their excuse for why they don't get healed or delivered of whatever affliction they have. I know that really ruffles a lot of folks' feathers, but I believe there is certainly a TON more Scripture that backs this position than the "It's God's fault" position.

I don't think it's an abomination at all to question faith. As a matter of fact, I think that's one of the first steps of humbling ourselves before the Lord and learning a little humility. It's pride that says our faith is perfect and it couldn't be our faith that is the hinderance from us receiving from God.

LookingUp
Dec 4th 2008, 04:08 PM
So the fact that none of those things follow them must mean that they no longer exist? In other words, you are allowing their experience, or lack thereof, determine what is applicable today . . . yes?No, not only this. I have to run for the day, but I'll write back later with Scriptural support for why I believe these gifts are not operating today the way they did in the 1st century.

VerticalReality
Dec 4th 2008, 05:06 PM
No, not only this. I have to run for the day, but I'll write back later with Scriptural support for why I believe these gifts are not operating today the way they did in the 1st century.

Okay. I will keep a look out for your post. God bless!

thegospelgeek
Dec 4th 2008, 05:12 PM
What a relief to see someone else voice this reality.

I have not finished reading these posts, so maybe you mention this later... but what have you determined is the reason for this gift being out of operation today?
The reason they are not here today and the reason they were beginning to fade even in the later parts of the scritures is due to their purpose. As you have stated and scripture confirms is that they are signs for people to believe the apostles, and by the way Paul was an apostle, he said so 16 times. As the scriptures were completed we now need to use them to determine if something is ofn God.

Most of you seam to think I don't believe in healing, I do. Just not a person holding the "gift of healing". One comes from God in his time and will. The other is a gift of God that could be given to anyone anywhere. Remeber the OP was about the "Gift" of healing not healing. References to Christ Ministry do not apply. He could heal anyone anywhere, anytime he wanted.

The Bible teaches that Peter's shadow could fall on someone and they would be healed. Peter spoke to people and said be healed, and they were. No Failures. No excuses about a lack of faith, no statements of if you only believe.

I've witness God heal people of cancer, drug addiction, achohol addiction, depression, all sorts of things. I've laid hands on people and anointed them with oil per James instructions and they were healed. But I DO NOT poses the "Gift of Healing". God healed them. The ones he chose to. The ones who according to his plan, were to be healed.

The instances and example given here are about healing, not the "gift of healing". Big difference.

Mysteryman
Dec 4th 2008, 05:30 PM
The reason they are not here today and the reason they were beginning to fade even in the later parts of the scritures is due to their purpose. As you have stated and scripture confirms is that they are signs for people to believe the apostles, and by the way Paul was an apostle, he said so 16 times. As the scriptures were completed we now need to use them to determine if something is ofn God.

Most of you seam to think I don't believe in healing, I do. Just not a person holding the "gift of healing". One comes from God in his time and will. The other is a gift of God that could be given to anyone anywhere. Remeber the OP was about the "Gift" of healing not healing. References to Christ Ministry do not apply. He could heal anyone anywhere, anytime he wanted.

The Bible teaches that Peter's shadow could fall on someone and they would be healed. Peter spoke to people and said be healed, and they were. No Failures. No excuses about a lack of faith, no statements of if you only believe.

I've witness God heal people of cancer, drug addiction, achohol addiction, depression, all sorts of things. I've laid hands on people and anointed them with oil per James instructions and they were healed. But I DO NOT poses the "Gift of Healing". God healed them. The ones he chose to. The ones who according to his plan, were to be healed.

The instances and example given here are about healing, not the "gift of healing". Big difference.
All powers are of God and not of any person. The gift of healing is not a power that faded away. The nine manifestations , of which gift of healing is one, are still very much in operation.

God Bless

thegospelgeek
Dec 4th 2008, 05:32 PM
All powers are of God and not of any person. The gift of healing is not a power that faded away. The nine manifestations , of which gift of healing is one, are still very much in operation.

God Bless

Have you witnessed them being demonstrated as Peter did?

Mysteryman
Dec 4th 2008, 05:34 PM
Have you witnessed them being demonstrated as Peter did?
If you are talking about "all nine" manifestations, the answer would be, yes !

Veretax
Dec 4th 2008, 05:46 PM
All powers are of God and not of any person. The gift of healing is not a power that faded away. The nine manifestations , of which gift of healing is one, are still very much in operation.

God Bless



Interesting, so then how do you explain this:


1Co 13:8 (http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=1co+13:8&version=nkj&st=1&sd=1&new=1&showtools=1) - Show Context (http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?passage=1co+13:8&version=nkj&context=1&showtools=1)
Love never fails. But whether there are prophecies, they will fail; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will vanish away.

Prophecy's fail, tongues Cease, knowledge vanish away? hrms...

thegospelgeek
Dec 4th 2008, 06:03 PM
If you are talking about "all nine" manifestations, the answer would be, yes !

So, you have witnessed someone walk over to a paralized man, tell them to get and they did. No big show, no fanfare, just be healed and they were. You have witnessed someone raise someone from the dead.

If so then I apologize and I will rethink my studies of scripture.

If not, do you agree to do the same?

Mysteryman
Dec 4th 2008, 06:09 PM
Interesting, so then how do you explain this:


1Co 13:8 (http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=1co+13:8&version=nkj&st=1&sd=1&new=1&showtools=1) - Show Context (http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?passage=1co+13:8&version=nkj&context=1&showtools=1)
Love never fails. But whether there are prophecies, they will fail; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will vanish away.

Prophecy's fail, tongues Cease, knowledge vanish away? hrms...
I would think that you being a smart person would agree that none of them have passed away , failed or ceased!

If knowledge has vanished, how do you explain your ability to communicate with me and others ?

If tongues have ceased , why is it that many still operate this manifestation ? Why are we to not only continue to speak in tongues, but encourage others to become baptized with the gif of holy spirit ?

Being baptized with the gift of holy spirit brings into manifestation the gift of speaking in tongues. The Apostle Paul stated - "I speak in tongues more than ye all". He was encouraging them to not only operate this manifestation, but to continue in doing so, as he was doing also. Remember Paul wrote I Corinth. 13:8 and because the Word does not contradict itself, neither would Paul contradict himself either !

Mysteryman
Dec 4th 2008, 06:19 PM
So, you have witnessed someone walk over to a paralized man, tell them to get and they did. No big show, no fanfare, just be healed and they were. You have witnessed someone raise someone from the dead.

If so then I apologize and I will rethink my studies of scripture.

If not, do you agree to do the same?
I am not sure that you realize what you are asking ! You can not lay out a certain criteria that if this or if that , then I will or will not do, and you will or should commit to such an agreement of such and such !

I have seen people healed without ever praying for them. Just the fact that the Word being taught and the believing being very high, that people were being healed just from the spoken Word. < This does not happen very often, because of the lack of faith most of the time. But still the 9 manifestations are in operation at all times.

But , yes , it is possible and I have seen this type of healing take place.

Most of the healing takes place by revelation from God in the operation of the manifestation of healing. Still, even then, faith plays a vital role !

Word of knowledge and word of wisdom and discerning of spirits < these three alone can bring about healing. And remember that there are many types of healings. Not all physical ! Some spiritual, some mental, some financial , etc.

VerticalReality
Dec 4th 2008, 06:27 PM
The reason they are not here today and the reason they were beginning to fade even in the later parts of the scritures is due to their purpose. As you have stated and scripture confirms is that they are signs for people to believe the apostles, and by the way Paul was an apostle, he said so 16 times. As the scriptures were completed we now need to use them to determine if something is ofn God.

So you believe that the purpose of the gift of healing was for others to believe the apostles . . .

1) Why if they needed such a gift to verify the truth of what they preached do you believe you do not? What makes you better at delivering the gospel than the apostles that you succeed in having others believe you where the apostles and even Jesus Christ failed?

2) In 1 Corinthians 12 where the apostle Paul speaks of the gift of healing he is stating that such a gift is given for the body of believers and for the strengthening of the church. Why would the Word of God state that such a gift is for the church if its only purpose is to help unbelievers believe the apostles and the gospel they preached?


Most of you seam to think I don't believe in healing, I do. Just not a person holding the "gift of healing". One comes from God in his time and will. The other is a gift of God that could be given to anyone anywhere. Remeber the OP was about the "Gift" of healing not healing. References to Christ Ministry do not apply. He could heal anyone anywhere, anytime he wanted.

Actually, Jesus couldn't heal anyone, anytime or anywhere. As has already been stated, the Word declares that Jesus couldn't heal many in His hometown because of their unbelief. Additionally, the ones who Jesus did heal were not healed based upon His own decision. Refer to John 5 where Jesus proclaimed that He did nothing of Himself but only what He saw the Father do. Everything Jesus did was done by the direction of His Father. The same is true for us today if we operate in the gifts of the Spirit. We can only do what the Lord wills for us to do. We do nothing of our own ability. We do nothing just because we want to. It's all according to His will.


The Bible teaches that Peter's shadow could fall on someone and they would be healed. Peter spoke to people and said be healed, and they were. No Failures. No excuses about a lack of faith, no statements of if you only believe.

To be technical, the Word does not say that people were actually healed by his shadow. And yes, Peter did speak the word just as I stated earlier. The same as Ezekiel prophecying to those dry bones, Peter spoke the commands he received from the Spirit. And if we are doing the will of God there will be no failures. If it is not the will of God there will be plenty of failure.


I've witness God heal people of cancer, drug addiction, achohol addiction, depression, all sorts of things. I've laid hands on people and anointed them with oil per James instructions and they were healed. But I DO NOT poses the "Gift of Healing". God healed them. The ones he chose to. The ones who according to his plan, were to be healed.

As I demonstrated with Peter in Acts 3 when the man at the gate called Beautiful was healed, Peter proclaimed to all in the temple that it was not by his power that the man was healed. He proclaimed to them that it was by the power of God that this man was healed, so Peter didn't just walk around with this supernatural power at his disposal anytime he willed it. It was by the will of God that the people were healed.

VerticalReality
Dec 4th 2008, 06:30 PM
Interesting, so then how do you explain this:


1Co 13:8 (http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=1co+13:8&version=nkj&st=1&sd=1&new=1&showtools=1) - Show Context (http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?passage=1co+13:8&version=nkj&context=1&showtools=1)
Love never fails. But whether there are prophecies, they will fail; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will vanish away.

Prophecy's fail, tongues Cease, knowledge vanish away? hrms...

Verse 8 of 1 Corinthians 13 states that these three will vanish away. However, the real question is when they will vanish away. The next verse says that when that which is perfect has come then that which is in part will be done away. So, we must receive revelation on what is "that which is perfect" that will do away with those three gifts of the Spirit.

I will proclaim right now that it is absolutely impossible that Paul is talking about the completed bible. There's no possible way that this is what he is talking about.

I believe he is talking about our own perfection. When we have been perfected and completely transformed into the image of the Lord Jesus Christ, it is then that the "that which is perfect" has come and we will know just as we also are known. It is then that we will no longer know in part, but we will know fully.

Veretax
Dec 4th 2008, 07:11 PM
First I'm going to throw a monkey wrench in here. You know some of the heathens and pagans today still speak in tongues? Tongues is not necessarily a Christian thing. My understanding of the Temple of (was it Diana? in Corinth) was that the preists/preistesses would often change in what many would probably call a Tongue today. Or are you not aware of this? (This is one of the many reasons I don't buy the argument that you have to speak in Tongues to be saved.)


I would think that you being a smart person would agree that none of them have passed away , failed or ceased!

If knowledge has vanished, how do you explain your ability to communicate with me and others ?


I went and looked up what the interlinear says. and the way I'm reading it it says basically:

13:8 The Love Never is lapsing whether yet prophecies they shall-be-being-discarded or languages they-shall-be-ecasing or knowledge it shall-be-being-discarded

Its interesting that both prophecies and knowledge use the exact same greek workd katargeO.

Strong's Number: 2673
Browse Lexicon (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/browse.cgi?number=2673&version=kjv)
Original Word
Word Origin katargevw
from (2596 (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=2596&version=kjv)) and (691 (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=691&version=kjv))
Transliterated Word
TDNT (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=2673&version=kjv#Legend) Entry Katargeo1:452,76
Phonetic Spelling
Parts of Speech kat-arg-eh'-o http://bible.crosswalk.com/images/audio.gif (http://bible.crosswalk.com/cgi-bin/lexicon.pl?id=2673g)
Verb
Definition



to render idle, unemployed, inactivate, inoperative

to cause a person or thing to have no further efficiency
to deprive of force, influence, power


to cause to cease, put an end to, do away with, annul, abolish

to cease, to pass away, be done away
to be severed from, separated from, discharged from, loosed from any one
to terminate all intercourse with one



King James Word Usage - Total: 27 destroy 5, do away 3, abolish 3, cumber 1, loose 1, cease 1, fall 1, deliver 1, miscellaneous 11

The Word for cease is:

Strong's Number: 3973
Browse Lexicon (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/browse.cgi?number=3973&version=kjv)
Original Word
Word Origin pauvwa root verb ("pause")
Transliterated Word
TDNT (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=3973&version=kjv#Legend) Entry Pauo
None
Phonetic Spelling
Parts of Speech pow'-o http://bible.crosswalk.com/images/audio.gif (http://bible.crosswalk.com/cgi-bin/lexicon.pl?id=3973g) Verb
Definition


to make to cease or desist
to restrain a thing or person from something
to cease, to leave off
have got release from sin

no longer stirred by its incitements and seductions



King James Word Usage - Total: 15 cease 12, leave 2, refrain 1


Paul clearly is indicating that for Prophecy and Knowledge they will be inactivated. Now, clearly he is not saying we lose knowledge cause we have that in the bible, what he must be saying is that at some point new knowledge and prophetic gifts from God to his Church would cease to be active. The word for Cease on Tongues is not that much different, as if it would fall into disuse.


Then verse 9 adds more.

Out of installment for we are knowing and out of installment we are prophesying

10. Whenever yet may-be-coming the maturity (TELIOS!) the out of installment part shall-be-being discarded


So to get this from a the NKJV


1 Corinthians 13 Read This Chapter

13:8 Love never fails. But whether there are prophecies, they will fail; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will vanish away.

13:9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part.

13:10 But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away.

13:11 When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child; but when I became a man, I put away childish things.

13:12 For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known.

13:13 And now abide faith, hope, love, these three; but the greatest of these is love.



The KJV New Testament Greek Lexicon

Strong's Number: 3313
Browse Lexicon
Original Word
Word Origin
mevroß from an obsolete but more primary form of meiromai (to get as a section or allotment)
Transliterated Word
TDNT Entry
Meros 4:594,585
Phonetic Spelling
Parts of Speech
mer'-os Noun Neuter
Definition

1. a part
1. a part due or assigned to one
2. lot, destiny
2. one of the constituent parts of a whole
1. in part, partly, in a measure, to some degree, as respects a part, severally, individually
2. any particular, in regard to this, in this respect


King James Word Usage - Total: 43
part 24, portion 3, coast 3, behalf 2, respect 2, miscellaneous 9

Verse 9 says we know in part, we prophecy in part, but not that it means part of the time but that its part of the whole of prophecy/knowledge. The word Meros gives the idea of installment or (a porition of God's word). My understanding is this refers to the completion of the canon of scripture, after which the only prophecy we needed was contained within, and no more would knowledge... the word used is gnOsis


I looked this one up:

The KJV New Testament Greek Lexicon

Strong's Number: 1108
Browse Lexicon
Original Word Word Origin
gnw'siß from (1097)
Transliterated Word TDNT Entry
Gnosis 1:689,119
Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
gno'-sis Noun Feminine
Definition

1. knowledge signifies in general intelligence, understanding
1. the general knowledge of Christian religion
2. the deeper more perfect and enlarged knowledge of this religion, such as belongs to the more advanced
3. esp. of things lawful and unlawful for Christians
4. moral wisdom, such as is seen in right living


King James Word Usage - Total: 29
knowledge 28, science 1




The verse 11 talks about putting away childish things. Which implies that these things that he was speaking of were perhaps found because of our infancy in Christ, but when we mature, we put those things away. Which is also intersting.

To Conclude, I believe that when the Canon of scripture was completed there was now no new prophecy or knowledge needed by the church, so those gifts fell inactive. As for Tongues, clearly early on they were necessary as a sign to Israel, but at some point this same passage says they would cease, that they would put a way, as a man puts away childish things. Thus I am of the belief that the Gift of tongues have ceased and were done away with.

(Now I am of the belief that while it was prophesized by Paul that it would cease, that does not mean that God could not grant it in places of his choosing either. But it certainly would be rare in my opinion if it happens at all. However, we clearly could debate whether the time for this ceasing has happened, its my interpretation that it has, but we certainly could discuss that part, but there would seem to be little doubt about knowledge or prophecy.)


As for speaking in tongues at salvation, Paul said he wished that ALL spake with Tongues. Clearly implying that even in that day, not ALL spake in tongues. So I dispute your claim that its necessary. Furthermore the "Baptism o fthe Holy Spirit" happens at the moment of faith and salvation and is not a second baptism as some have been preaching, but that really is a topic for another thread if you ask me.


Verse 8 of 1 Corinthians 13 states that these three will vanish away. However, the real question is when they will vanish away. The next verse says that when that which is perfect has come then that which is in part will be done away. So, we must receive revelation on what is "that which is perfect" that will do away with those three gifts of the Spirit.

I will proclaim right now that it is absolutely impossible that Paul is talking about the completed bible. There's no possible way that this is what he is talking about.

I believe he is talking about our own perfection. When we have been perfected and completely transformed into the image of the Lord Jesus Christ, it is then that the "that which is perfect" has come and we will know just as we also are known. It is then that we will no longer know in part, but we will know fully.

I disagree with you on this point vertical, because the words for knowledge and prophecy imply certain things based on the definitions as I've shown above. But there is indeed some debate on what that which is perfect means, so this is one of the trickier passages of scripture to digest.


Certainly the idea here is that something is being completed. We can debate whether its the completion of God's word to his people, or if it has something personal with each believer. I think I heard once someone said that it was Jesus. (but if it is us why would Paul not say, when we have been made mature this shall be done away with. Why say it the way he did. Also that is a an interesting way to ponder it I shall have to think some more on it as well.. Anyhow I'll let you guys dig through what I just said before I say anything else.

thegospelgeek
Dec 4th 2008, 07:13 PM
So you believe that the purpose of the gift of healing was for others to believe the apostles . . .

1) Why if they needed such a gift to verify the truth of what they preached do you believe you do not? What makes you better at delivering the gospel than the apostles that you succeed in having others believe you where the apostles and even Jesus Christ failed?

2) In 1 Corinthians 12 where the apostle Paul speaks of the gift of healing he is stating that such a gift is given for the body of believers and for the strengthening of the church. Why would the Word of God state that such a gift is for the church if its only purpose is to help unbelievers believe the apostles and the gospel they preached?


Good questions. We have the Bible to verify the words of those who preach, they did not. It's not a matter of todays preachers being better it's just that a standard has been established. For instance, the first time one of the apostles preached, if no miracles were present who would believe them? There was nothing to go to to see if what they were saying was true. Now there is. The answer to #2 is the same.



Actually, Jesus couldn't heal anyone, anytime or anywhere. As has already been stated, the Word declares that Jesus couldn't heal many in His hometown because of their unbelief.

Couldn't or didn't. I certainly would not say he could not. Just as i wouldn't say he could not today. Christ can and does heal whomever he chooses. We can not manipulate or control what God can and can not do.


Additionally, the ones who Jesus did heal were not healed based upon His own decision. Refer to John 5 where Jesus proclaimed that He did nothing of Himself but only what He saw the Father do. Everything Jesus did was done by the direction of His Father.

taken very much out of context. Jesus is saying that when we see him we are seeing the Father. When we see him love we see what God is like. When we see him weep, we see God. When we see him die on the cross we see God going to the extreme to save us. When we see him rise, we see God's power over death and sin.


The same is true for us today if we operate in the gifts of the Spirit. We can only do what the Lord wills for us to do. We do nothing of our own ability. We do nothing just because we want to. It's all according to His will. You'll get no disagreement from me here except for the sinful things we do, these are not in the fathers will. But i am sure that is not what you meant.




To be technical, the Word does not say that people were actually healed by his shadow. And yes, Peter did speak the word just as I stated earlier. The same as Ezekiel prophecying to those dry bones, Peter spoke the commands he received from the Spirit. And if we are doing the will of God there will be no failures. If it is not the will of God there will be plenty of failure.

I still haven't seen an exaple of the "Gift of healing" failing. Read Acts 5:16. People came and they were healed "every one". Those who claim to have this gift of healing use the faith level of the receiver as a built in excape clause.




As I demonstrated with Peter in Acts 3 when the man at the gate called Beautiful was healed, Peter proclaimed to all in the temple that it was not by his power that the man was healed. He proclaimed to them that it was by the power of God that this man was healed, so Peter didn't just walk around with this supernatural power at his disposal anytime he willed it. It was by the will of God that the people were healed. Then we argree to disagree, the way I read it the Gift was "Given" to Peter. He could use it on demand. We do agree that Peter gave the glory where it belongs, to the Power of Christ.[/quote]

Please remember, I am not saying that God doesn't heal.

And also, no one has addressed the whole "raising from the dead" thing.

chad
Dec 4th 2008, 07:21 PM
I thought we were saved by faith in Jesus Christ, not if we are able to speak in tongues.

If we don't speak in tongues, we are not saved?


Is that even biblical? :confused


Chad :rolleyes:


[quote=Veretax;1892175] (This is one of the many reasons I don't buy the argument that you have to speak in Tongues to be saved.)

As for speaking in tongues at salvation, Paul said he wished that ALL spake with Tongues. Clearly implying that even in that day, not ALL spake in tongues. So I dispute your claim that its necessary. Furthermore the "Baptism o fthe Holy Spirit" happens at the moment of faith and salvation and is not a second baptism as some have been preaching, but that really is a topic for another thread if you ask me.

thegospelgeek
Dec 4th 2008, 07:28 PM
I thought we were saved by faith in Jesus Christ, not if we are able to speak in tongues.

If we don't speak in tongues, we are not saved?


Is that even biblical? :confused


Chad :rolleyes:



Absolutly not biblical

chad
Dec 4th 2008, 07:39 PM
Thats what I thought.

Who made up that teaching, that we are not saved unless we can speak in tongues?


Chad


Absolutly not biblical

I thought we were saved by faith in Jesus Christ, not if we are able to speak in tongues.

If we don't speak in tongues, we are not saved?


Is that even biblical? :confused


Chad :rolleyes:

Veretax
Dec 4th 2008, 07:40 PM
Absolutly not biblical


I agree, although I don't know why my post was quoted :/

VerticalReality
Dec 4th 2008, 07:45 PM
I disagree with you on this point vertical, because the words for knowledge and prophecy imply certain things based on the definitions as I've shown above. But there is indeed some debate on what that which is perfect means, so this is one of the trickier passages of scripture to digest.

Certainly the idea here is that something is being completed. We can debate whether its the completion of God's word to his people, or if it has something personal with each believer. I think I heard once someone said that it was Jesus. (but if it is us why would Paul not say, when we have been made mature this shall be done away with. Why say it the way he did. Also that is a an interesting way to ponder it I shall have to think some more on it as well.. Anyhow I'll let you guys dig through what I just said before I say anything else.

Here's my interpretation on this passage that I gave not long ago. Please give it a read and let me know your thoughts . . .


First of all the verse you are referencing that says tongues will cease . . .

1 Corinthians 13:8
Love never fails. But whether there are prophecies, they will fail; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will vanish away.

This passage is obviously comparing and contrasting love with that of prophecy, tongues and knowledge. While the latter three will fail or cease at some point, love will continue on and never fail. So, when will these things fail or cease? Let's continue reading . . .

1 Corinthians 13:9
For we know in part and we prophesy in part.

Why do we know in part and prophesy in part? Well, prophecy, knowledge and tongues are spiritual gifts. Unfortunately, we are not always tuned into the spirit. We have a flesh that battles against us receiving from the spirit. It's just as Paul states in Galatians 5:16-17

Galatians 5:16-17
I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish.

If we were able to walk by the spirit non-stop and never have the hinderance of the flesh then we would not just receive prophecy and so forth in part. We would receive it fully. When we are with the Lord we will not receive in part any longer. We will have full revelation then.

However, let us continue on and see when these gifts will no longer be necessary . . .

1 Corinthians 13:10
But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away.

So, Paul tells us here that when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away. What is "that which is in part"? That would be prophecy, tongues and knowledge. When that which is perfect has come then all those things which are in part will be done away. They will no longer be needed.

Now, immediately you have many folks who claim that the "that which is perfect" is the bible. They state that when the bible was canonized "that which is perfect" had arrived in the the completion of the Scriptures.

While I do believe that the Scriptures are inerrant and given by inspiration of God, Paul goes on in verse 12 to prove that the "that which is perfect" is not the bible. Let's have a look . . .

1 Corinthians 13:12
For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known.

Here Paul tells us that at the moment he only knows in part. Get that? Paul says that even he only knows in part. However, he then says that when "that which is perfect" has come then he will know just as he also is known. Now this presents a huge problem for those who claim that the bible is "that which is perfect" because Paul says here that he is going to see it. However, Paul never saw and witnessed the completion of the canonized bible. Parts of Scripture were not even written until after his death. So if Paul states that he is going to see "that which if perfect" he cannot be talking about the bible. However, he does tell us the context of what he is referencing . . .

1 Corinthians 13:10-11
But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away. When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child; but when I became a man, I put away childish things.

Now, after Paul tells us that those things which are in part will be done away when that which is perfect has come he immediately begins talking about himself in verse 11. He begins to discuss how when he grew from a child into a man he stopped doing those things he did as a child.

1 Corinthians 13:12
For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known.

Here at the beginning of verse 12 Paul continues addressing himself and other Christians stating that we only see in a mirror dimly. What are we looking at in this mirror? Well, when you look in a mirror you see a reflection of yourself. However, he states that we only see this reflection dimly. Why? It is because we only know in part. When we look in this mirror we are seeing our spirit man dimly. Our spirit man has been perfected and is in the image of our Lord and Savior. He then states that when "that which is perfect" has come then we will see "face to face". He says that we will know just as we also are known. In other words, when "that which is perfect" has come then we will no longer just know in part but we will know fully. When "that which is perfect" has come then we will no longer be looking in this mirror dimly. We will see a reflection in that mirror that is completely clear. We will come face to face with that perfect spirit man that is seated in the heavenlies with Christ Jesus and has been resurrected in His image.

There are other Scriptures referring to this same thing . . .

2 Corinthians 3:17-18
Now the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. But we all, with unveiled face,beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as by the Spirit of the Lord.

The reason we currently see in this mirror dimly is because our soul has not been perfected yet. Our mind, will and so forth still needs to be transformed back into the image of the Lord. We are going through a daily process of renewal known as sanctification. When we have been completely sanctified, then we will have seen that which is perfect face to face. We will be completed in Him . . .

This is the confidence that Paul spoke of here . . .

Philippians 1:3-6
I thank my God upon every remembrance of you, always in every prayer of mine making request for you all with joy, for your fellowship in the gospel from the first day until now, being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ;

As we can see here . . . God has begun a perfect work in us. However, this perfect work has not yet been completed. We are completed and perfected in spirit. However, in our body and soul we are not perfected. 1 Corinthians 13 is talking about this perfection. When we are perfected fully, we will no longer know in part. We will know just as we are known in the spirit.

So, until this perfection takes place we are still in need of prophecy, knowledge and tongues along with the rest of the gifts of the Spirit.

That which is perfect has come when we have been perfected and completed in Him.

VerticalReality
Dec 4th 2008, 07:47 PM
I will get back to this momentarily. Be patient, folks . . .

thegospelgeek
Dec 4th 2008, 07:55 PM
Can we continue on the healing thing before we get into tounges and prophesey? (Boy my spelling is horrible). Not that I mind discussing those, but I don't like to lump them all together like people do. But if that's the direction we go I'll try to join in.

By the way, thanks to all of you for joining in. It's good to get out of our comfort zone and denominational teachings and be challenged with something else.

Veretax
Dec 4th 2008, 08:05 PM
Actually, I'm not sure how that bled into this topic, I think there's another active topic on that, could a mod maybe split out the ones on Tongues and Prophecy and merge them into that thread? It might be better that way.

Mysteryman
Dec 4th 2008, 08:59 PM
Can we continue on the healing thing before we get into tounges and prophesey? (Boy my spelling is horrible). Not that I mind discussing those, but I don't like to lump them all together like people do. But if that's the direction we go I'll try to join in.

By the way, thanks to all of you for joining in. It's good to get out of our comfort zone and denominational teachings and be challenged with something else.
The point is, is that "Love" never fails and will never cease.

The other point is, is that none of the manifestations have ceased yet ! They will, at the end of this "administration", but not until then. And when they do, Love will continue on forever.

Paul encouraged speaking in tongues. He himself taught the church to speak in tongues and operate the nine manifestations. The "church" is still in operation , until the end of this administration.

You see, if one manifestation has ceased then they all have ceased. But none of them have ceased yet. Understand ?

thegospelgeek
Dec 4th 2008, 09:42 PM
The point is, is that "Love" never fails and will never cease.

The other point is, is that none of the manifestations have ceased yet ! They will, at the end of this "administration", but not until then. And when they do, Love will continue on forever.

Paul encouraged speaking in tongues. He himself taught the church to speak in tongues and operate the nine manifestations. The "church" is still in operation , until the end of this administration.

You see, if one manifestation has ceased then they all have ceased. But none of them have ceased yet. Understand ?

I understand what you are saying, but disagree. I'm not even using the argument that tounges or prophesy have ceased. I'm just saying that I have never witnessed someone, or met someone who has really witnessed healing done in the way it is demonstrated in the book of Acts. It is a simple argument.

Many on here have stated that they have witnessed miracles, so have I.

Many have said that God heals, so do I.

My argument is that the Apostolic gift was "On Demand". Peter witnessed people in need and healed them. People came to him from far away and he healed them "every one". Not some, not those who believed, not those that the Holy Spirit told him too. All. (Acts 5:16)

VerticalReality
Dec 4th 2008, 10:00 PM
Good questions. We have the Bible to verify the words of those who preach, they did not. It's not a matter of todays preachers being better it's just that a standard has been established. For instance, the first time one of the apostles preached, if no miracles were present who would believe them? There was nothing to go to to see if what they were saying was true. Now there is. The answer to #2 is the same.

So you believe that after the apostles died off then the gift of healing died off with them?


Couldn't or didn't. I certainly would not say he could not. Just as i wouldn't say he could not today. Christ can and does heal whomever he chooses. We can not manipulate or control what God can and can not do.

Actually, the Scriptures say he couldn't . . .

Mark 6:1-6
Then He went out from there and came to His own country, and His disciples followed Him. And when the Sabbath had come, He began to teach in the synagogue. And many hearing Him were astonished, saying, “Where did this Man get these things? And what wisdom is this which is given to Him, that such mighty works are performed by His hands! Is this not the carpenter, the Son of Mary, and brother of James, Joses, Judas, and Simon? And are not His sisters here with us?” So they were offended at Him. But Jesus said to them, “A prophet is not without honor except in his own country, among his own relatives, and in his own house.” Now He could do no mighty work there, except that He laid His hands on a few sick people and healed them. And He marveled because of their unbelief. Then He went about the villages in a circuit, teaching.


This passage of Scripture is clearly stating that Jesus couldn't do much of anything in His hometown, and He marveled at their unbelief. Additionally, if you check Matthew 13:58, which is Matthew's account of the same event, he clearly states that unbelief was the cause of why Jesus couldn't do many miracles or healings in His hometown. Not that He wouldn't . . . it says He couldn't.

Additionally, as I pointed out to you in my last post, even Jesus said that He did nothing of Himself. So to state that He can do whatever He wants to do contradicts the Scriptures . . .

John 5:19-20
Then Jesus answered and said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, but what He sees the Father do; for whatever He does, the Son also does in like manner. For the Father loves the Son, and shows Him all things that He Himself does; and He will show Him greater works than these, that you may marvel.

This passage of Scripture clearly states exactly what I stated to you. Our Lord Jesus Christ did nothing of Himself. He only did what His Father showed Him and told Him to do.



taken very much out of context. Jesus is saying that when we see him we are seeing the Father. When we see him love we see what God is like. When we see him weep, we see God. When we see him die on the cross we see God going to the extreme to save us. When we see him rise, we see God's power over death and sin.
You'll get no disagreement from me here except for the sinful things we do, these are not in the fathers will. But i am sure that is not what you meant.


It's not taken out of context, IMO. We see the Father because the Father was in Jesus just as Jesus is in us if we are truly His disciples . . .

John 14:9-11
Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on My own authority; but the Father who dwells in Me does the works. Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father in Me, or else believe Me for the sake of the works themselves.

And here's the same for believers in the Lord Jesus Christ . . .

John 14:15-23
“If you love Me, keep My commandments. And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever— the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you. I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you. “A little while longer and the world will see Me no more, but you will see Me. Because I live, you will live also. At that day you will know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you. He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him.” Judas (not Iscariot) said to Him, “Lord, how is it that You will manifest Yourself to us, and not to the world?” Jesus answered and said to him, “If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him.

There's just an abundant amount of Scripture to back what I'm saying here.


I still haven't seen an exaple of the "Gift of healing" failing. Read Acts 5:16. People came and they were healed "every one". Those who claim to have this gift of healing use the faith level of the receiver as a built in excape clause.

That's because if someone is operating in the true gift of healing by the will of the Lord it will not fail. When I've spoken healing at the direction of the Lord it has never failed. It's those who try and go about doing things without the direction of the Lord that fail in what they are doing. It's the same for us as it was for Jesus. We can only do what we see Him do. If we try to do under our own authority then we aren't going to get very far because the power to heal is not by our own authority. It's by the authority we are given by Him.


Then we argree to disagree, the way I read it the Gift was "Given" to Peter. He could use it on demand. We do agree that Peter gave the glory where it belongs, to the Power of Christ.

But Peter clearly declares in Acts 3 to the people that it was by the Lord's hand that the man was healed . . .

Peter states the following immediately following the healed man leaping and praising God . . .

Acts 3:12
So when Peter saw it, he responded to the people: “Men of Israel, why do you marvel at this? Or why look so intently at us, as though by our own power or godliness we had made this man walk?

Peter is clearly saying here that it was not by his own power that the man walked . . .

Acts 3:16
And His name, through faith in His name, has made this man strong, whom you see and know. Yes, the faith which comes through Him has given him this perfect soundness in the presence of you all.

Peter again clearly declares that it was by the faith in His name that this man was able to walk. It's all by the power of the Lord through faith.


And also, no one has addressed the whole "raising from the dead" thing.

What's to address? There are still folks being raised from the dead as God wills . . .

That's actually another example. When Dorcas died and Peter came to where she was he didn't just charge up to her and command her to come back to life. First thing he did was kick everyone out of the room. Then he prayed . . .

Why do you think he prayed? He was praying for the Lord's will. It wasn't by Peter's power or authority that Dorcas was going to be raised from the dead. It had to be by God's power and authority. Peter, just like the Lord Jesus Christ, could do nothing of himself but only what he saw Him do.

VerticalReality
Dec 4th 2008, 10:02 PM
I thought we were saved by faith in Jesus Christ, not if we are able to speak in tongues.

If we don't speak in tongues, we are not saved?


Is that even biblical? :confused


Chad :rolleyes:

Nobody received salvation from speaking in tongues, and nobody is denied salvation because they don't speak in tongues.

LookingUp
Dec 4th 2008, 10:02 PM
Wow, I go away for a few hours and come back to a ton of posts! Hot topic, isn't it?

Well, since the question of cessation came up, I'd thought I'd post this well written argument for cessationism...

“The essential text for cessationism (the belief that the sign and revelatory gifts have ceased) is 1 Corinthians 13:8-13. "Tongues," Paul says, "will cease." Not much doubt about the what here; the question is when. In the same context Paul speaks of God doing away with the revelatory gifts (prophecy, word of knowledge) "when the complete thing comes." Perhaps he had used the expression "the complete thing" when he taught in Corinth; regrettably, he simply assumes they know what he's referring to and doesn't explain it. Some might say "the complete thing" is the coming of Christ or the kingdom or Christ Himself. Well, Christ certainly is complete, no doubt about that. But as Paul progresses in the context, he tells us two things about the complete thing: (1) it's in contrast to the partial thing and (2) it's deeply connected with the maturity (the Greek word has both nuances) of the church. If the "partial thing" refers to prophecy/knowledge, I'd say that defines it as "the partial revelation," since revelation of God's word is what prophecy is. Logically, then, the "complete thing" would be the full revelation of God's word, the completed canon of Scripture. This corresponds nicely to Paul's vision of the church growing from childhood to adulthood, the same metaphor he employs in Ephesians 4:11-16. Now, one may view that the completeness doesn't come until the return of Christ. This means that Paul does not envision the church to be mature in the sight of God until Christ returns. This makes the church today a 2000-year-old spiritual juvenile. Granted, the church all too much acts like a 2000-year-old brat, but I don't believe that was what God intended or what Paul envisioned. Paul expected the church to attain maturity in his lifetime: "until we all attain to the unity of the faith and the full knowledge of the Son of God, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ" (Ephesians 4:13). The revelatory gifts were like educational toys. It's great for a little kid to play with and learn from toys. But, as Paul says, "When I grew up, I put away my toys."

In contrast to the revelatory gifts, 1 Corinthians 13 doesn't actually say when the sign gifts such as tongues cease. It seems sensible to me that the gift of tongues would not outlast the gift of prophecy, since Paul makes it clear that prophecy is a superior gift. Also, based on Paul's midrash on Isaiah 28, I believe the reason God gave the gift of tongues to the Corinthian church was specifically to indicate that He had shifted His focus from national Israel to the predominantly Gentile church. (Recall from Acts 18:7 that the church met next door to the synagogue in Corinth.) The manifestation of the Spirit in the gift of tongues was an indicator of God's judgment on the unbelieving Jews, as Paul so masterfully derives from Isaiah (posted below). Once that purpose had been fulfilled -- God doesn't need to keep making this same statement about the Jews and the church for 2000 years -- the gift ceases.”

I’m not planning to argue for or against this view. I posted this for those interested in seeing the argument for cessationsim.

See the next post for further explanation on Isa. 28…

LookingUp
Dec 4th 2008, 10:04 PM
What was the prophetic reason for tongues according to Paul? In 1 Cor. 14 Paul cites Isa 28:11.

“Paul's use of Isaiah 28 is clearly midrashic. The original prophecy is an oracle of destruction against Judah. The overall section of the book (chs. 24-35) is directed at Judah, but at least the first half of 28 is addressed to the leadership of the northern kingdom ("Ephraim"). It's been suggested that the first half of 28 is a retrospective, citing the destruction of Samaria as an example to the Judean leadership. The latter half of 28 is most likely a prophecy of the conquest of Judah, first by Assyria (from which God delivered them in response to Hezekiah's repentance) and later by Babylon (which happened). The foreign language referred to in the prophecy is the language of the Gentile conquerors. (There's sort of an ironic twist on this in Isaiah 36, where Rabshakeh addresses the people in Hebrew and the Judean delegation pleads with him to speak in Aramaic instead, so the people won't understand their threats.) The idea of the prophecy is that God has expressed Himself very clearly through His prophets, but the people complain insolently that the word of the prophets is incomprehensible to them, so they're not obeying it. God's response: "OK, if you think My word is incomprehensible, fine. I'll make it literally incomprehensible to you." We see a similar principle in Jesus' use of parables. He doesn't speak plainly to the people because the people are unwilling to hear. Because of their hard-heartedness, He deliberately speaks in an unclear manner so as to furnish them an excuse for not listening -- it's all very ironic. When God addresses Israel in a Gentile language, that in itself is a declaration of judgment, that God would speak to His chosen people through a vessel not of the chosen people.

Paul's reworking of the Isaiah oracle has little to do with its original context. His focus is specifically on the phrase (actually a single word in Greek) "foreign languages." He's co-opting this phrase from the prophecy of Gentile destruction of Jerusalem to point out that the manifestation of tongues in Corinth serves as an indicator that God has concluded Israel in unbelief and has turned His focus to the Gentiles. It's a brilliant midrash.”

VerticalReality
Dec 4th 2008, 10:11 PM
Wow, I go away for a few hours and come back to a ton of posts! Hot topic, isn't it?

Well, since the question of cessation came up, I'd thought I'd post this well written argument for cessationism...

“The essential text for cessationism (the belief that the sign and revelatory gifts have ceased) is 1 Corinthians 13:8-13. "Tongues," Paul says, "will cease." Not much doubt about the what here; the question is when. In the same context Paul speaks of God doing away with the revelatory gifts (prophecy, word of knowledge) "when the complete thing comes." Perhaps he had used the expression "the complete thing" when he taught in Corinth; regrettably, he simply assumes they know what he's referring to and doesn't explain it. Some might say "the complete thing" is the coming of Christ or the kingdom or Christ Himself. Well, Christ certainly is complete, no doubt about that. But as Paul progresses in the context, he tells us two things about the complete thing: (1) it's in contrast to the partial thing and (2) it's deeply connected with the maturity (the Greek word has both nuances) of the church. If the "partial thing" refers to prophecy/knowledge, I'd say that defines it as "the partial revelation," since revelation of God's word is what prophecy is. Logically, then, the "complete thing" would be the full revelation of God's word, the completed canon of Scripture. This corresponds nicely to Paul's vision of the church growing from childhood to adulthood, the same metaphor he employs in Ephesians 4:11-16. Now, one may view that the completeness doesn't come until the return of Christ. This means that Paul does not envision the church to be mature in the sight of God until Christ returns. This makes the church today a 2000-year-old spiritual juvenile. Granted, the church all too much acts like a 2000-year-old brat, but I don't believe that was what God intended or what Paul envisioned. Paul expected the church to attain maturity in his lifetime: "until we all attain to the unity of the faith and the full knowledge of the Son of God, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ" (Ephesians 4:13). The revelatory gifts were like educational toys. It's great for a little kid to play with and learn from toys. But, as Paul says, "When I grew up, I put away my toys."

In contrast to the revelatory gifts, 1 Corinthians 13 doesn't actually say when the sign gifts such as tongues cease. It seems sensible to me that the gift of tongues would not outlast the gift of prophecy, since Paul makes it clear that prophecy is a superior gift. Also, based on Paul's midrash on Isaiah 28, I believe the reason God gave the gift of tongues to the Corinthian church was specifically to indicate that He had shifted His focus from national Israel to the predominantly Gentile church. (Recall from Acts 18:7 that the church met next door to the synagogue in Corinth.) The manifestation of the Spirit in the gift of tongues was an indicator of God's judgment on the unbelieving Jews, as Paul so masterfully derives from Isaiah (posted below). Once that purpose had been fulfilled -- God doesn't need to keep making this same statement about the Jews and the church for 2000 years -- the gift ceases.”

I’m not planning to argue for or against this view. I posted this for those interested in seeing the argument for cessationsim.

See the next post for further explanation on Isa. 28…

I appreciate you sharing with us, but could you do me a favor and give citation to the source of this information you posted? The forum rules stipulate that all copied material be cited, and also no posting of copyrighted material without the consent of the author is allowed as well.

Thanks a ton.

Now, as far as this person's interpretation is concerned . . . I've shown in my breakdown of the 1 Corinthians 13 verses that it is absolutely impossible for the "that which is perfect" to be the completed canon we call the bible. It is an impossibility, and I share why in that post. Did you get a chance to read that over?

Thaddaeus
Dec 4th 2008, 10:14 PM
Here's my interpretation on this passage that I gave not long ago. Please give it a read and let me know your thoughts . . .

Originally Posted by Veretax http://bibleforums.org/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?p=1892175#post1892175)
I disagree with you on this point vertical, because the words for knowledge and prophecy imply certain things based on the definitions as I've shown above. But there is indeed some debate on what that which is perfect means, so this is one of the trickier passages of scripture to digest.

Certainly the idea here is that something is being completed. We can debate whether its the completion of God's word to his people, or if it has something personal with each believer. I think I heard once someone said that it was Jesus. (but if it is us why would Paul not say, when we have been made mature this shall be done away with. Why say it the way he did. Also that is a an interesting way to ponder it I shall have to think some more on it as well.. Anyhow I'll let you guys dig through what I just said before I say anything else.

Let me input some scripture that might help acts 2 Peter stood and quote joel chapter 2
Joe 2:28And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons
and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:
Joe 2:29And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit.Joe 2:30And I will show wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke.Joe 2:31The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.Joe 2:32And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call1cor.13:10
But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

that which is perfect could one of two things but one thing for sure it won't come before the sun be darken and the moon turned to blood, for up to that point
and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:so according to the scripture, unless I missed the moon being turned to blood we should still have prophecies, and with this the other 8 gifts of the Spirit
also And also according to scriptures this will happen after the six seal is broken during the great tribulation, if this has already bee fulfilled as some say
the prophecy of Joel has been fulfilled at penta cost, then we are all in trouble for not only did we miss the rapture but the tribulation period was over about
2000 yrs ago

Re 6:12And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;Re 6:13And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
But you I can prove that this has not happened yet tongues and prophecy should still be with us . here is my prove the last time I went outside at dark i looked up and lo I saw stars still up in the heaven

LookingUp
Dec 4th 2008, 10:23 PM
I appreciate you sharing with us, but could you do me a favor and give citation to the source of this information you posted? The forum rules stipulate that all copied material be cited, and also no posting of copyrighted material without the consent of the author is allowed as well.This isn't copied from a website, an article or a book. It's just from a friend of mine. He has given me permission to share his views on the board.

I'll read your other post now. Thanks.

Lamplighter
Dec 4th 2008, 10:32 PM
The gift of Healing Paul speaks about in 1 Cor chapter 12 is not what Jesus or the Apostles did. Look at the KJV and the Greek manuscripts. It's not the gift of "Healing" it's the gift of "Healings" It's a plural noun (iama) in the Greek (ἴαμα) and it means medecine, remedy, or a means of healing. It's medical gifts.

The gift of "Healings" Paul spoke about in 1 Cor 12 is medical remedies not supernatural healings like Jesus and the Apostles did. Man doesn't supernaturally heal with any his gifts, man does not have the power to supernaturally heal, only God does. The gifts of the Holy Spirit are gifts men have for ministry, they are not extra supernatural God like power given to Christians.

Most Christians have no idea what a Spiritual gift even is. Read 1 Cor 12 in the Greek. Paul never talks about the gifts as supernatural in nature. Supernatural healings by God's Holy Spirit happen all the time and still today when Christians pray for healing, but it's not the gift of "healings" in 1 Cor 12. Every christian on earth can pray for somebody to be healed, and it does not take some supernatural spiritual gift to make it possible.

VerticalReality
Dec 4th 2008, 10:36 PM
The gift of Healing Paul speaks about in 1 Cor chapter 12 is not what Jesus or the Apostles did. Look at the KJV and the Greek manuscripts. It's not the gift of "Healing" it's the gift of "Healings" It's a plural noun (iama) in the Greek (ἴαμα) and it means medecine, remedy, or a means of healing. It's medical gifts.

The gift of "Healings" Paul spoke about in 1 Cor 12 is medical remedies not supernatural healings like Jesus and the Apostles did. Man doesn't supernaturally heal with any his gifts, man does not have the power to supernaturally heal, only God does. The gifts of the Holy Spirit are gifts men have for ministry, they are not extra supernatural God like power given to Christians.

Most Christians have no idea what a Spiritual gift even is. Read 1 Cor 12 in the Greek. Paul never talks about the gifts as supernatural in nature. Supernatural healings by God's Holy Spirit happen all the time and still today when Christians pray for healing, but it's not the gift of "healings" in 1 Cor 12. Every christian on earth can pray for somebody to be healed, and it does not take some supernatural spiritual gift to make it possible.

We've had this discussion before, but even Muslims heal through medicine. This is not of the Holy Spirit. Are you saying that their ability rivals that of the Holy Spirit? I mean they can heal too, right?

In other words, you're saying there is absolutely nothing special about the Holy Spirit giving people in the church gifts of healing. They are just the same as the Buddhist down the street who just so happens to be a doctor.

Lamplighter
Dec 4th 2008, 11:12 PM
We've had this discussion before, but even Muslims heal through medicine. This is not of the Holy Spirit. Are you saying that their ability rivals that of the Holy Spirit? I mean they can heal too, right?

In other words, you're saying there is absolutely nothing special about the Holy Spirit giving people in the church gifts of healing. They are just the same as the Buddhist down the street who just so happens to be a doctor.

You still misunderstand me. Laying hands on the sick and praying for them to be healed is not the "gift of healings" that Paul talks about in 1 Cor 12. All of the elders of the church are to lay hands on and pray that the sick might be healed according to the will of God, and sometimes God heals them supernaturally during this laying on of hands. You won't see this supernatural healing from God in any other religion, that is not what I am saying at all. Obviously not all of the elders in every Christian church have the gift of healings, but yet all are commanded to lay their hands on the sick and pray that they might be healed. This is because the gift of healings is not laying your hands on somebody and praying they might be healed. The gift of healings is medical knowledge according to Paul.

Again, the Holy Spirit of God heals supernaturally all the time, but this has nothing to do with the gift of Healings in 1 Cor 12. Praying for the sick to be healed is not a spiritual gift, it's for all Christian leadership(elders) to do (James 5:14). Notice James says nothing about it being any kind of spiritual gift. This is because it's not. 2 different things altogether.

Mysteryman
Dec 4th 2008, 11:12 PM
I understand what you are saying, but disagree. I'm not even using the argument that tounges or prophesy have ceased. I'm just saying that I have never witnessed someone, or met someone who has really witnessed healing done in the way it is demonstrated in the book of Acts. It is a simple argument.

Many on here have stated that they have witnessed miracles, so have I.

Many have said that God heals, so do I.

My argument is that the Apostolic gift was "On Demand". Peter witnessed people in need and healed them. People came to him from far away and he healed them "every one". Not some, not those who believed, not those that the Holy Spirit told him too. All. (Acts 5:16)
This is where I believe you are making a mistake. The apostles could not heal on demand ! We can read about the healings within the Word of God. The problem I have, is your comment "On Demand". No where in the Word do we see "On Demand" healing. All healings were by revelation, and where there was "faith". Not once is there any record of "On Demand" healing.

It would be like telling God, your out of the picture on this one. I am demanding healing whether you like it or not. < Do you see the foolishness of this ?

I am merely trying to point out to you, your misunderstanding of the scriptures about "On Demand" healing.

I only thought you can order "on demand" on your cable TV ? :bounce:

VerticalReality
Dec 4th 2008, 11:21 PM
The gift of healings is medical knowledge according to Paul.

So then I understand you fine. You think just because someone has medical knowledge they have a gift of healing. Muslims have medical knowledge along with buddhists, atheists, agnostics, etc.

They are not operating in a gift of the Spirit. I think it's safe to say that these folks are not operating in spiritual gifts. However, what that then says is that since they are not operating in gifts of the Spirit, yet they are just as able to heal as any other Christian then you are equating their ability to what the Holy Spirit empowers Christians to do. You are reducing the gifts of the Holy Spirit all the way to the works of men.

chad
Dec 5th 2008, 12:40 AM
I agree, you don't need to be able to speak in tongues in order to recieve salvation, but some people must believe in this - according to what I read from vertax post?


Originally posted by vertax

First I'm going to throw a monkey wrench in here. You know some of the heathens and pagans today still speak in tongues? Tongues is not necessarily a Christian thing. My understanding of the Temple of (was it Diana? in Corinth) was that the preists/preistesses would often change in what many would probably call a Tongue today. Or are you not aware of this? (This is one of the many reasons I don't buy the argument that you have to speak in Tongues to be saved.)


Chad :rolleyes:


Nobody received salvation from speaking in tongues, and nobody is denied salvation because they don't speak in tongues.

Veretax
Dec 5th 2008, 01:52 AM
Yeah, believe me, I probably had the same reaction to that statement as you did upon reading it. I've never been out of the US, and we've been pretty sheltered as far as such things go, but I remember hearing a missionary isting a church, and he told me about some things he had witnessed, and one of them was some pagans who apparently would speak as if with tongues. We just don't see that sort of thing in the modern world of the west so blatantly so the meaning of that may have been lost over time. Especially since most don't understand how the greek pagans worshiped.



The point is, is that "Love" never fails and will never cease.

The other point is, is that none of the manifestations have ceased yet ! They will, at the end of this "administration", but not until then. And when they do, Love will continue on forever.

Paul encouraged speaking in tongues. He himself taught the church to speak in tongues and operate the nine manifestations. The "church" is still in operation , until the end of this administration.

You see, if one manifestation has ceased then they all have ceased. But none of them have ceased yet. Understand ?

So do you believe their are still apostles or Prophets. I don't.

Bladers
Dec 5th 2008, 02:11 AM
It is so funny how people can pick and choose what they want. "umm i want only pastors, no prophets"

If there are no prophets, then there are no pastor, nor anything that paul listed.

Lamplighter
Dec 5th 2008, 03:22 AM
So then I understand you fine. You think just because someone has medical knowledge they have a gift of healing. Muslims have medical knowledge along with buddhists, atheists, agnostics, etc.

They are not operating in a gift of the Spirit. I think it's safe to say that these folks are not operating in spiritual gifts. However, what that then says is that since they are not operating in gifts of the Spirit, yet they are just as able to heal as any other Christian then you are equating their ability to what the Holy Spirit empowers Christians to do. You are reducing the gifts of the Holy Spirit all the way to the works of men.

You still misunderstand me.

How can an unsaved person from a cult, without the Holy Spirit, have a gift from the Holy Spirit? They can't. I never said they did.

I posted that the Holy Spirit of God heals all the time, but again, the gift of healings is clearly shown in the Greek manuscript language to be a medical kind of healing, and not a supernatural kind of healing. I have never said God does not heal people supernaturally, it happens all the time. God does this when the elders of the church lay hands on and pray for a healing.

VerticalReality
Dec 5th 2008, 04:14 AM
You still misunderstand me.

How can an unsaved person from a cult, without the Holy Spirit, have a gift from the Holy Spirit? They can't. I never said they did.

I posted that the Holy Spirit of God heals all the time, but again, the gift of healings is clearly shown in the Greek manuscript language to be a medical kind of healing, and not a supernatural kind of healing. I have never said God does not heal people supernaturally, it happens all the time. God does this when the elders of the church lay hands on and pray for a healing.

The Greek shows no such thing. The Greek shows that medicine can be included in the meaning of the term, but it is not limited to medicine. It also simply says a means of healing. The means of healing could be from anything, and doesn't limit it to just medicine. And in the context of this passage of Scripture it's talking nothing of medicine.

And I don't believe I'm misunderstanding at all.

If this is not what you are saying please correct whatever of the following is not what you believe . . .

You are saying that the gift of healing spoken of in 1 Corinthians 12 is of a medical nature. In other words, as you have stated in the past, the Holy Spirit is working through someone's ability to use medicinal means to heal another person.

Now, is this what you are saying?

chad
Dec 5th 2008, 05:29 AM
I did a study once, the word super natural does not exist in the bible. I think when people say they are healed supernaturally by God, they mean they are healed by the spirit of God, the Holy Spirit.

1 Cor 12:4-11

(1 Cor 12:4 NIV) There are different kinds of gifts, but the same Spirit.

(1 Cor 12:5 NIV) There are different kinds of service, but the same Lord.

(1 Cor 12:6 NIV) There are different kinds of working, but the same God works all of them in all men.

(1 Cor 12:7 NIV) Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good.

(1 Cor 12:8 NIV) To one there is given through the Spirit the message of wisdom, to another the message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit,

(1 Cor 12:9 NIV) to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit,

(1 Cor 12:10 NIV) to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues, and to still another the interpretation of tongues.

(1 Cor 12:11 NIV) All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he gives them to each one, just as he determines.


Chad :rolleyes:

Lamplighter
Dec 5th 2008, 05:55 AM
You are saying that the gift of healing spoken of in 1 Corinthians 12 is of a medical nature. In other words, as you have stated in the past, the Holy Spirit is working through someone's ability to use medicinal means to heal another person.

Now, is this what you are saying?

Yes, this is what I am saying.

I have the gift of Prophecy, which I was born with(I was a prophet before I was ever saved), not given the gift in any kind of supernatural way. After I was born again, the Holy Spirit works through my gift for the service of the church and the body of Christ.

LookingUp
Dec 5th 2008, 06:03 AM
First of all the verse you are referencing that says tongues will cease . . .


Why do we know in part and prophesy in part? Well, prophecy, knowledge and tongues are spiritual gifts. Unfortunately, we are not always tuned into the spirit. We have a flesh that battles against us receiving from the spirit. It's just as Paul states in Galatians 5:16-17…

If we were able to walk by the spirit non-stop and never have the hindrance of the flesh then we would not just receive prophecy and so forth in part. We would receive it fully.You say “if” we were able to walk by the spirit… “then” we would not just receive prophecy etc. in part? So we would receive it in whole if we walked by the spirit non-stop?

Or if you’re really trying to say that we receive it in part because we need it to walk in the spirit incompletely, then why wouldn’t we receive it in whole so we could walk in the spirit completely? Sounds like you’re saying we need these gifts just so we can walk in the spirit a little better, is that right?

If so, it would seem that those of us who “lack faith” in the gifts would be the ones who would see these gifts manifest in their lives, since we are the ones who need the most help walking by the spirit.


When we are with the Lord we will not receive in part any longer. We will have full revelation then.If the gifts were not to vanish until Christ’s return, what was Paul’s purpose in the warning? Why bother with such a warning at all?

By the way, doesn’t the Greek word for vanish or to be done away carry the meaning of die away gradually (not coming to a sudden stop)?

You asked why they knew only in part and prophesied only in part. Paul tells us why. Paul says their partial knowledge & partial prophecy was directly related to that which is perfect, which had not yet come (vs. 10). That much is at least clear; they could only know in part and prophesy in part BECAUSE that which is perfect had not come yet.

The opposite of this would be that when that which is perfect shall come, then they would have full knowledge and have full prophecy (revelation). Do the Scriptures contain the full knowledge and revelation of God? Can we fully come to know God through the Scriptures? Can we fully come to know the revelation of God through the Scriptures? Do I need a word of knowledge and/or revelation from another to fully know God?


However, let us continue on and see when these gifts will no longer be necessary . . .


So, Paul tells us here that when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away. What is "that which is in part"? That would be prophecy, tongues and knowledge. When that which is perfect has come then all those things which are in part will be done away. They will no longer be needed.

Now, immediately you have many folks who claim that the "that which is perfect" is the bible. They state that when the bible was canonized "that which is perfect" had arrived in the completion of the Scriptures.

While I do believe that the Scriptures are inerrant and given by inspiration of God, Paul goes on in verse 12 to prove that the "that which is perfect" is not the bible. Let's have a look . . .

Here Paul tells us that at the moment he only knows in part. Get that? Paul says that even he only knows in part. However, he then says that when "that which is perfect" has come then he will know just as he also is known. Now this presents a huge problem for those who claim that the bible is "that which is perfect" because Paul says here that he is going to see it. However, Paul never saw and witnessed the completion of the canonized bible. Parts of Scripture were not even written until after his death. So if Paul states that he is going to see "that which if perfect" he cannot be talking about the bible.Paul is not speaking of himself in a literal way. He is speaking in parables. Figure out the three parables, figure out the intended meaning. So you are in error to say that Paul “proves” that that which is perfect is not the Bible. Paul does not say “he is going to see it”; Paul is expanding from the second parable where he uses his life as an illustration for the timeframe of when these things will vanish away.


However, he does tell us the context of what he is referencing . . .


Now, after Paul tells us that those things which are in part will be done away when that which is perfect has come he immediately begins talking about himself in verse 11. He begins to discuss how when he grew from a child into a man he stopped doing those things he did as a child.This is part of the second parable. It tells us the timeframe as to when that which is perfect shall come. Paul uses an illustration of his own lifespan to show the timeframe in which these gifts would end. An interesting thought is that when Paul writes “to speak” it is a reference to tongues, when Paul writes “to think” it is a reference to knowledge and when Paul writes “to reason” it is a reference to prophecy. This timeframe of one’s life is to show that these would vanish in an observable period of time.



1 Corinthians 13:12
For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known.

Here at the beginning of verse 12 Paul continues addressing himself and other Christians stating that we only see in a mirror dimly. What are we looking at in this mirror? Well, when you look in a mirror you see a reflection of yourself. However, he states that we only see this reflection dimly. Why? It is because we only know in part…Yes, without the completed Scriptures, one can look into them only dimly.


When we look in this mirror we are seeing our spirit man dimly. Our spirit man has been perfected and is in the image of our Lord and Savior. He then states that when "that which is perfect" has come then we will see "face to face". He says that we will know just as we also are known. In other words, when "that which is perfect" has come then we will no longer just know in part but we will know fully. When "that which is perfect" has come then we will no longer be looking in this mirror dimly. We will see a reflection in that mirror that is completely clear. We will come face to face with that perfect spirit man that is seated in the heavenlies with Christ Jesus and has been resurrected in His image.This is the third parable. They saw through the glass dimly because the Bible had not yet been completed. The completion of the Bible allows one to know the perfect will of God.

“And do not be conformed to this world but be transformed by the renewing of your mind so that you may prove what the will of God is, that which is good and acceptable and perfect” (Rom. 12:2).

The renewing of the mind comes from looking intently into the perfect law of freedom.

“Do not merely listen to the word and so deceive yourselves. Do what it says. Anyone who listens to the word but does not do what it says is like a man who looks at his face in a mirror and after looking at himself, goes away and immediately forgets what he looks like. But the man who looks intently into the perfect law that gives freedom, and continues to do this, not forgetting what he has heard, but doing it, he will be blessed in what he does” (James 1:22-25).

“All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; so that the man of God may be adequate equipped for every good work” (2 Tim. 3:16).

Veretax
Dec 5th 2008, 08:26 AM
Originally Posted by Bladers
It is so funny how people can pick and choose what they want. "umm i want only pastors, no prophets"

If there are no prophets, then there are no pastor, nor anything that paul listed.


What is a Prophet? Think about that for a moment? Note there is a difference from being a person who says that something may happen. Say an economist who predicts the economy would rebound. There is a difference between being a Prophet in that worldy sense and being a prophet called by God. Prophets were ALWAYS called directly by God. They were responsible for bringing God's revelation to his people, but in particular toward Israel. What they said was not always prediction of things to come either, but of urging folks to repent, to turn back to the Lord Etc. They really could not exist at all after Johns revelation. If it did, then why do we not have 5 or ten more books added to the Canon since REvelation? The revelation of the Oracles of God to men ended back then.

Also who were the apostles? Apostles could only be those who saw the bodily risen Savior. This is why Paul could be counted as an apostle even though he was not with Jesus as a disciple before the curcifixtion. Now, the only prophecy we need is that which comes from scripture, that which was already written and given to the Church long ago. We do not need additional revelation from God, because the Bible provides us with ample ability to understand the will and precepts of God.




Originally Posted by Lamplighter
Yes, this is what I am saying.

I have the gift of Prophecy, which I was born with(I was a prophet before I was ever saved), not given the gift in any kind of supernatural way. After I was born again, the Holy Spirit works through my gift for the service of the church and the body of Christ.

As I just said, this sounds like a contradiction. The prophets in the bible, the ones that you see were always, repeat always of the lineage of God. they were Israelites. And could only prophesy that which God told them to, for if anyone called a Prophet uttered something that was even slightly false, then they were counted as false prophets. I would advise you to read up on Prophets a bit more to determine whether your current understanding of how Prophecy works is correct or not, brother.





Originally Posted by LookingUp
You say “if” we were able to walk by the spirit… “then” we would not just receive prophecy etc. in part? So we would receive it in whole if we walked by the spirit non-stop?

Or if you’re really trying to say that we receive it in part because we need it to walk in the spirit incompletely, then why wouldn’t we receive it in whole so we could walk in the spirit completely? Sounds like you’re saying we need these gifts just so we can walk in the spirit a little better, is that right?

If so, it would seem that those of us who “lack faith” in the gifts would be the ones who would see these gifts manifest in their lives, since we are the ones who need the most help walking by the spirit.

If the gifts were not to vanish until Christ’s return, what was Paul’s purpose in the warning? Why bother with such a warning at all?

By the way, doesn’t the Greek word for vanish or to be done away carry the meaning of die away gradually (not coming to a sudden stop)?

You asked why they knew only in part and prophesied only in part. Paul tells us why. Paul says their partial knowledge & partial prophecy was directly related to that which is perfect, which had not yet come (vs. 10). That much is at least clear; they could only know in part and prophesy in part BECAUSE that which is perfect had not come yet.

The opposite of this would be that when that which is perfect shall come, then they would have full knowledge and have full prophecy (revelation). Do the Scriptures contain the full knowledge and revelation of God? Can we fully come to know God through the Scriptures? Can we fully come to know the revelation of God through the Scriptures? Do I need a word of knowledge and/or revelation from another to fully know God?

Paul is not speaking of himself in a literal way. He is speaking in parables. Figure out the three parables, figure out the intended meaning. So you are in error to say that Paul “proves” that that which is perfect is not the Bible. Paul does not say “he is going to see it”; Paul is expanding from the second parable where he uses his life as an illustration for the timeframe of when these things will vanish away.

This is part of the second parable. It tells us the timeframe as to when that which is perfect shall come. Paul uses an illustration of his own lifespan to show the timeframe in which these gifts would end. An interesting thought is that when Paul writes “to speak” it is a reference to tongues, when Paul writes “to think” it is a reference to knowledge and when Paul writes “to reason” it is a reference to prophecy. This timeframe of one’s life is to show that these would vanish in an observable period of time.


Yes, without the completed Scriptures, one can look into them only dimly.

This is the third parable. They saw through the glass dimly because the Bible had not yet been completed. The completion of the Bible allows one to know the perfect will of God.

“And do not be conformed to this world but be transformed by the renewing of your mind so that you may prove what the will of God is, that which is good and acceptable and perfect” (Rom. 12:2).

The renewing of the mind comes from looking intently into the perfect law of freedom.

“Do not merely listen to the word and so deceive yourselves. Do what it says. Anyone who listens to the word but does not do what it says is like a man who looks at his face in a mirror and after looking at himself, goes away and immediately forgets what he looks like. But the man who looks intently into the perfect law that gives freedom, and continues to do this, not forgetting what he has heard, but doing it, he will be blessed in what he does” (James 1:22-25).

“All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; so that the man of God may be adequate equipped for every good work” (2 Tim. 3:16).

Exactly, if there was still Prophecy then it would be worthy of being counted as Scripture, and we should then be having more added to the canon of Scripture, but I don't hear any arguments of such (except from the mormons.) Without the bible being completed there is no way for us to have a full understanding of all God's word wants us to know. This is why it eventually had to be completed, and why Prophecy and Knowledge would vanish away. It is not that such things in theory could not happen, it is because they are no longer needed as the knowledge that is now known is deemed sufficient by God himself.

That passage from James is really key in understanding what Paul was talking about, because James as I recall was written far earlier than 1 Corinthians. Therefore I believe that which is perfect is the completion of the canon of scripture.

chad
Dec 5th 2008, 11:12 AM
[quote=Thaddaeus;1891655]

so here is the question to those you preach or even believe that all these gifts died with the 12 apostles.


Thats a scary thought.

If the gifts died with the apostles, that means there has been no messages of wisdom, knowledge, faith, healing, miraculous powers, prophecy, distinguishing between spirits, speaking in different kinds of tongues and interpretation of tongues since the apostles died.

Does that mean there have been no workings of the Holy spirit, since the apostles died?


(1 Cor 12:8 NIV) To one there is given through the Spirit the message of wisdom, to another the message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit,
(1 Cor 12:9 NIV) to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit,
(1 Cor 12:10 NIV) to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues, and to still another the interpretation of tongues.
(1 Cor 12:11 NIV) All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he gives them to each one, just as he determines.
(1 Cor 12:12 NIV) The body is a unit, though it is made up of many parts; and though all its parts are many, they form one body. So it is with Christ.
(1 Cor 12:13 NIV) For we were all baptized by one Spirit into one body--whether Jews or Greeks, slave or free--and we were all given the one Spirit to drink.

1 Corinthians 12:28 also mentions those having gifts of healing being part of the church of God, with the apostles, prophets and teachers. :confused


(1 Cor 12:28 NIV) And in the church God has appointed first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then workers of miracles, also those having gifts of healing, those able to help others, those with gifts of administration, and those speaking in different kinds of tongues.


Chad :rolleyes:

militarywife
Dec 5th 2008, 12:44 PM
A wise friend shared this with me and I believe it applies and could be helpful. 'To truly represent the Lord as He is we must move in the supernatural power of the Holy Spirit. Jesus expected it when he said, "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do he will do also; and greater works than these he will do, because I go to my Father." (John 14:12). The physical departure of Jesus was not supposed to signal the end of God's miracles on earth, but rather, the multiplication of them.'

Mysteryman
Dec 5th 2008, 12:45 PM
Yeah, believe me, I probably had the same reaction to that statement as you did upon reading it. I've never been out of the US, and we've been pretty sheltered as far as such things go, but I remember hearing a missionary isting a church, and he told me about some things he had witnessed, and one of them was some pagans who apparently would speak as if with tongues. We just don't see that sort of thing in the modern world of the west so blatantly so the meaning of that may have been lost over time. Especially since most don't understand how the greek pagans worshiped.




So do you believe their are still apostles or Prophets. I don't.

I believe that the first century church is the exact same today as it was nearly two thousand years ago. Nothing has changed !

In the book of Ephesians, we are told that Jesus will send apostles, prophets ,teachers, evangilists, and pastors unto the church. And because I do not believe that anything has changed. I most certainly believe that there are still apostles and prophets sent by Jesus unto the Church. I believe that because people do not recognize this truth, then they do not believe this truth, thus they are not looking for, nor recognizing this truth.

I believe it is called a "lack of faith" on those who read the seven church epistles and do not "believe" what is written .

Veretax
Dec 5th 2008, 01:40 PM
[quote=Thaddaeus;1891655]

so here is the question to those you preach or even believe that all these gifts died with the 12 apostles.


Thats a scary thought.

If the gifts died with the apostles, that means there has been no messages of wisdom, knowledge, faith, healing, miraculous powers, prophecy, distinguishing between spirits, speaking in different kinds of tongues and interpretation of tongues since the apostles died.

Does that mean there have been no workings of the Holy spirit, since the apostles died?


(1 Cor 12:8 NIV) To one there is given through the Spirit the message of wisdom, to another the message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit,
(1 Cor 12:9 NIV) to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit,
(1 Cor 12:10 NIV) to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues, and to still another the interpretation of tongues.
(1 Cor 12:11 NIV) All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he gives them to each one, just as he determines.
(1 Cor 12:12 NIV) The body is a unit, though it is made up of many parts; and though all its parts are many, they form one body. So it is with Christ.
(1 Cor 12:13 NIV) For we were all baptized by one Spirit into one body--whether Jews or Greeks, slave or free--and we were all given the one Spirit to drink.

1 Corinthians 12:28 also mentions those having gifts of healing being part of the church of God, with the apostles, prophets and teachers. :confused


(1 Cor 12:28 NIV) And in the church God has appointed first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then workers of miracles, also those having gifts of healing, those able to help others, those with gifts of administration, and those speaking in different kinds of tongues.


Chad :rolleyes:

First off it is a twist of my posts, and that of Gods word to say that ALL of the gifts have passed away. There are only three which are clear from 1 Cor that will cease or vanish away. Prophecy and Knowledge are said to be come dormant (not active), and Tongues are said to cease of themselves. There is nothing elsewhere that I am aware of that would cause the other gifts to cease or vanish in scripture. So please do not take my words as if I am saying that for that is not what I said, nor do I believe that.


I believe that the first century church is the exact same today as it was nearly two thousand years ago. Nothing has changed !

In the book of Ephesians, we are told that Jesus will send apostles, prophets ,teachers, evangilists, and pastors unto the church. And because I do not believe that anything has changed. I most certainly believe that there are still apostles and prophets sent by Jesus unto the Church. I believe that because people do not recognize this truth, then they do not believe this truth, thus they are not looking for, nor recognizing this truth.

I believe it is called a "lack of faith" on those who read the seven church epistles and do not "believe" what is written .


I will ask you again, who are apostles? Apostles by definition are those who had seen the risen savior. Were not all apostles confirmed by the 11/12 Disciples (Peter and his gang?) At some point that possibility no longer is possible. Do we have people seeing the risen savior as Christ today? The answer is no, and even if it were, how can any believe him unless two or three witnesses also witnessed at the same time. What is a prophet, but a person who brings new revelation of God to the Church. Do we have new revelation today? No we do not, we have the scripture completed. What about knowledge, do we have in essence new revealed words from God that add or increase what God has said? Again no. Now our understanding of certain passages certainly has grown or perhaps matured over time, but do not concern the understanding that God gives with knowledge of things which shall be, and things which God personally reveals and inspires to a Prophet or Tongues Speaker to reveal.

As for Tongues, you have to determine what their true purpose was before you can really determine whether they have or have not ceased yet. We know from 1 Cor 14 that Tongues were meant to be interpretted in the Worship of the Church. We also know from there as well as in Acts 2 when Joel is cited that the Word of God coming through foreign languages to Israel was part of the fullfillment of that prophecy. There really have not been any new prophets sent to Israel (that I am aware of) since Christ came either.

All of the Gifts are meant to be edifying to the body. Now Corinth was a port City as recall so there is likely that unlike some of our churches today, there may have been folks with countless different languages that might come buy, and hear these tongues being spoke. I believe that Tongues in addition to being a sign to Israel that God's word had passed to the Gentiles, in that they were intended to also bring many gentiles of many nations to Christ. Look what happened in Acts 2 when the Holy Spirit came upon the disciples/apostles. There were people from all over the region many spoke different langauges and each heard in his own tongue. This is the second purpose of Tongues. They are useful in spreading the gospel to those who do not or have not heard for the simple fact that the word has never come to them in a language they could discern or understand.

The other reason Tongues seemed to be useful, is God talked about the possibility of speaking in Tongues in prayer. Which is an interesting Concept, but trutfully, he said because there is no interpretation it really only edifies that person. However, the other interesting thing here is why would we need to pray in a Tongue? Its not forbidden, but why would we? I can only think of two reasons, one might be because we think someone is eaves dropping and the Lord would want them to hear what we prayed. The other might be to conceal the matter from someone. However, as far as prayer concerned, I do not see the real need for Tongues except that in special cases God would want us to pray in one, for God knows all languages. I do not believe that we need to speak in a different language to be understood of God, for he knows the heart of man, and he knows the mind. I think it is then better to pray in my own language, that I may have understanding.

Mysteryman
Dec 5th 2008, 01:59 PM
[quote=chad;1893027]

First off it is a twist of my posts, and that of Gods word to say that ALL of the gifts have passed away. There are only three which are clear from 1 Cor that will cease or vanish away. Prophecy and Knowledge are said to be come dormant (not active), and Tongues are said to cease of themselves. There is nothing elsewhere that I am aware of that would cause the other gifts to cease or vanish in scripture. So please do not take my words as if I am saying that for that is not what I said, nor do I believe that.




I will ask you again, who are apostles? Apostles by definition are those who had seen the risen savior. Were not all apostles confirmed by the 11/12 Disciples (Peter and his gang?) At some point that possibility no longer is possible. Do we have people seeing the risen savior as Christ today? The answer is no, and even if it were, how can any believe him unless two or three witnesses also witnessed at the same time. What is a prophet, but a person who brings new revelation of God to the Church. Do we have new revelation today? No we do not, we have the scripture completed. What about knowledge, do we have in essence new revealed words from God that add or increase what God has said? Again no. Now our understanding of certain passages certainly has grown or perhaps matured over time, but do not concern the understanding that God gives with knowledge of things which shall be, and things which God personally reveals and inspires to a Prophet or Tongues Speaker to reveal.

As for Tongues, you have to determine what their true purpose was before you can really determine whether they have or have not ceased yet. We know from 1 Cor 14 that Tongues were meant to be interpretted in the Worship of the Church. We also know from there as well as in Acts 2 when Joel is cited that the Word of God coming through foreign languages to Israel was part of the fullfillment of that prophecy. There really have not been any new prophets sent to Israel (that I am aware of) since Christ came either.

All of the Gifts are meant to be edifying to the body. Now Corinth was a port City as recall so there is likely that unlike some of our churches today, there may have been folks with countless different languages that might come buy, and hear these tongues being spoke. I believe that Tongues in addition to being a sign to Israel that God's word had passed to the Gentiles, in that they were intended to also bring many gentiles of many nations to Christ. Look what happened in Acts 2 when the Holy Spirit came upon the disciples/apostles. There were people from all over the region many spoke different langauges and each heard in his own tongue. This is the second purpose of Tongues. They are useful in spreading the gospel to those who do not or have not heard for the simple fact that the word has never come to them in a language they could discern or understand.

The other reason Tongues seemed to be useful, is God talked about the possibility of speaking in Tongues in prayer. Which is an interesting Concept, but trutfully, he said because there is no interpretation it really only edifies that person. However, the other interesting thing here is why would we need to pray in a Tongue? Its not forbidden, but why would we? I can only think of two reasons, one might be because we think someone is eaves dropping and the Lord would want them to hear what we prayed. The other might be to conceal the matter from someone. However, as far as prayer concerned, I do not see the real need for Tongues except that in special cases God would want us to pray in one, for God knows all languages. I do not believe that we need to speak in a different language to be understood of God, for he knows the heart of man, and he knows the mind. I think it is then better to pray in my own language, that I may have understanding.
I just finished reading what you wrote, and I am shocked to say the least. Why would we speak in tongues ? If for nothing else we are speaking unto God - I Corinth. 14:2. Yet, it is more than just speaking unto God, even though that is a great reason to speak in tongues. The Word tells us that we speak "mysteries" while we are speaking to God. Mysteries are the hidden things of God, by the way. If you talk to God in your own language, this is 'your understanding' from your known language. So this means, that you are not speaking mysteries (hidden things) unto God. By speaking in tongues, you do not "reason" why, you do it because God has told us to do so. It is no different than when God told Moses to lead his people out of Egypt. Moses doubted within his own mind, and God was not pleased with Moses for doubting within himself.

It builds us up spiritually to speak in tongues. Is that not another good enough reason ? And to think that all of this knowledge and understanding comes from the scriptures given to the Church.

Here is the problem as I see it. Our lack of faith is based upon the fact that a certain individual, or individuals, lacks the faith to believe God. If you try and reason everything out within your own way of thinking. Then God's way is not in you. You are trying to reason everything out with your earthly mind.

Remember, from our five senses, it didn't make any sense for God to tell Moses to go into the desert and just believe God to feed them and give them water to drink from a rock, etc. By our five senses it just does not make any sense.

Speaking in tongues is the exact same ! Maybe to you it does not make any sense by your five senses. But God does not ask us to walk by our five senses. He asks us to walk spiritually. Don't question why, just do it ! We have enough information in the scriptures unto the Church for us to "not" question God about speaking in tongues. So why would anyone question God , when it is His will for us unto the Church ?

Mysteryman
Dec 5th 2008, 02:08 PM
The question as to what is an "Apostle".

An Apostle is "not" just one who has 'seen' the Lord Jesus Christ ! That is a myth !. This type of thinking is not biblical exegesis !

Paul who was Saul did not walk with, nor see Jesus Christ in the flesh. An Apostle is one who brings good news. Sent by God unto the Church to bring this good news. How many Apostles are there ? I do not know. But I do know that there are "few". The reason I know this to be true, is because of the consistency within the Word of God. There are more Prophets than there are Apostles. And there is only "one" Christ Jesus who is the chief corner stone of the building.

1. One - Christ
2. Few - Apostles
3. More than just a few Prophets
4. Many teachers
5. Many evangilists
6. A tremendous amount of Pastors.

The amount is based upon the need. There is only a need for "one" Christ to be the chief corner stone. Apostles and Prophets make up the rest of the foundation of the building. So they are few as well, but more Prophets than Apostles.

All five - Apostles, Prophets, Evangilists, Teachers, and Pastors are given unto the Church - Ephesians 4:10 - 14 <- And these verses give us the "reason" why they are sent !

VerticalReality
Dec 5th 2008, 03:19 PM
Yes, this is what I am saying.

I have the gift of Prophecy, which I was born with(I was a prophet before I was ever saved), not given the gift in any kind of supernatural way. After I was born again, the Holy Spirit works through my gift for the service of the church and the body of Christ.

So, then how exactly does the Holy Spirit work through someone's "gift" of healing by medicine? What is it that the Holy Spirit is doing through this "gift"?

Veretax
Dec 5th 2008, 03:39 PM
I just finished reading what you wrote, and I am shocked to say the least. Why would we speak in tongues ? If for nothing else we are speaking unto God - I Corinth. 14:2. Yet, it is more than just speaking unto God, even though that is a great reason to speak in tongues. The Word tells us that we speak "mysteries" while we are speaking to God. Mysteries are the hidden things of God, by the way. If you talk to God in your own language, this is 'your understanding' from your known language. So this means, that you are not speaking mysteries (hidden things) unto God. By speaking in tongues, you do not "reason" why, you do it because God has told us to do so. It is no different than when God told Moses to lead his people out of Egypt. Moses doubted within his own mind, and God was not pleased with Moses for doubting within himself.


All right, you say God TELLS us to speak in tongues. really. Find me the commandment that says to the effect, you should all speak in tongues. You will not find it in scripture. Furthermore, the word used for tongues in greek is defined as spoken languages of the nations. Also, even if I agree with your interpretation that tongues are 'mysteries' of God. If as 14 Cor says Knowledge and prophecy have been deactivated, and that tongues shall cease, then if as I believe that happened when the canon of God's word was completed. There is no further need then for tongues to reveal 'mysteries'. None whatsoever. Also someone else in this thread paul taught them to speak in tongues. Which I laugh at because I thought the spiritual gifts all come from God. Meaning No Training. The Galileans the apostles at pentecost spoke in languages they likely did not personally know. I take exception at this point because it is not scriptural.




It builds us up spiritually to speak in tongues. Is that not another good enough reason ? And to think that all of this knowledge and understanding comes from the scriptures given to the Church.

Here is the problem as I see it. Our lack of faith is based upon the fact that a certain individual, or individuals, lacks the faith to believe God. If you try and reason everything out within your own way of thinking. Then God's way is not in you. You are trying to reason everything out with your earthly mind.

Remember, from our five senses, it didn't make any sense for God to tell Moses to go into the desert and just believe God to feed them and give them water to drink from a rock, etc. By our five senses it just does not make any sense.

Speaking in tongues is the exact same ! Maybe to you it does not make any sense by your five senses. But God does not ask us to walk by our five senses. He asks us to walk spiritually. Don't question why, just do it ! We have enough information in the scriptures unto the Church for us to "not" question God about speaking in tongues. So why would anyone question God , when it is His will for us unto the Church ?

Funny though how your mocking me about reasoning, and then use your own reasoning to show why its wrong. Very funny indeed. Listen clearly we are not going to agree on this point. And for you to insinuate that because one does not speak tongues is therefore not saved, is not biblical, and is clearly proven false by scripture. I am not going to say anything more to what you have said, for you are convinced in what you believe. I and others have given ample proof, yet you've chosen to ignore or dismiss it. Your doubting of my faith matterrs nothing to me. I know what I believe, and I know how I walk off of this messageboard. That is between me and the Almighty.


I looked up the definition of the word for Apostles. It is the word Apostolos...

The KJV New Testament Greek Lexicon

Strong's Number: 652 Browse Lexicon (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/browse.cgi?number=652&version=kjv) Original WordWord Origin ajpovstoloßfrom (649 (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=649&version=kjv)) Transliterated WordTDNT (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=652&version=kjv#Legend) Entry Apostolos1:407,67 Phonetic Spelling
Parts of Speech
ap-os'-tol-os http://bible.crosswalk.com/images/audio.gif (http://bible.crosswalk.com/cgi-bin/lexicon.pl?id=0652g)
Noun Masculine Definition

a delegate, messenger, one sent forth with orders

specifically applied to the twelve apostles of Christ
in a broader sense applied to other eminent Christian teachers

of Barnabas
of Timothy and Silvanus



King James Word Usage - Total: 81 apostle 78, messenger 2, he that is sent 1
I've never thought about Barnabas as being an Apostle, but the idea is that they were divinely chosen by Christ to spread the Gospel. In the case of the 12, and Saul/Paul all were expressly chosen by Christ. In pauls case via what we might call a Vision.


I've never heard of anyone in our present time who has had such a vision and had it confirmed, Frankly the apostles are not necessarily needed now. Why? Who was paul? Was he not a jew a pharisee? A person who knew the OT and the law well? So when he says we view dimly he knows based on the analogy that the full light of scripture has not been completed. He knows that, he speaks that at some point we will have the full light, that happened when the canon was completed. I don't know what more I can say to convince you of this for you remain unconvinced.




The question as to what is an "Apostle".

An Apostle is "not" just one who has 'seen' the Lord Jesus Christ ! That is a myth !. This type of thinking is not biblical exegesis !

Paul who was Saul did not walk with, nor see Jesus Christ in the flesh. An Apostle is one who brings good news. Sent by God unto the Church to bring this good news. How many Apostles are there ? I do not know. But I do know that there are "few". The reason I know this to be true, is because of the consistency within the Word of God. There are more Prophets than there are Apostles. And there is only "one" Christ Jesus who is the chief corner stone of the building.



What proof is there that he did or did not see him? I'm afraid I disagree on this point, but there is no evidence that I am aware of that proves or disproves this point.


We are just going to have to agree to disagree here.

VerticalReality
Dec 5th 2008, 04:01 PM
You say “if” we were able to walk by the spirit… “then” we would not just receive prophecy etc. in part? So we would receive it in whole if we walked by the spirit non-stop?

It's not really that difficult to imagine. Do you have a perfect knowledge of God and His will for you or are you still learning and growing in the Lord? That obvious answer is that you do not know all about the Lord. You receive this knowledge in part as you grow in the grace and knowledge of Him. The reason you do not know Him or even yourself in the spirit fully is because you are still in this world and hindered by the flesh. You have to be perfected in order to receive fully.


Or if you’re really trying to say that we receive it in part because we need it to walk in the spirit incompletely, then why wouldn’t we receive it in whole so we could walk in the spirit completely? Sounds like you’re saying we need these gifts just so we can walk in the spirit a little better, is that right?

Walk in the spirit incompletely? We already walk in the spirit incompletely. If we didn't we would already be perfected. None of us are perfect. We receive from the spirit not so we can walk in the spirit incompletely. We receive in part from the spirit because we are hindered by the flesh.


If so, it would seem that those of us who “lack faith” in the gifts would be the ones who would see these gifts manifest in their lives, since we are the ones who need the most help walking by the spirit.

The gifts aren't to help you walk in the spirit. The gifts are for the strengthening of the body. You can walk in the spirit by faith and not be operating in any spiritual gifts at all. However, unless you have perfect knowledge and a perfect understanding of the Lord then I think it should be very easy to see that you have only received knowledge of Him in part. We are not complete. We are still very much in part.


If the gifts were not to vanish until Christ’s return, what was Paul’s purpose in the warning? Why bother with such a warning at all?

I don't hold the belief that the gifts are active until Jesus Christ returns. I stated they are active for us until we are completed and perfected. When we are perfected we will no longer need anything in part. We will know fully.


By the way, doesn’t the Greek word for vanish or to be done away carry the meaning of die away gradually (not coming to a sudden stop)?

Looking at the Greek here it looks pretty sudden to me . . .

καταργέω

1) to render idle, unemployed, inactivate, inoperative
a) to cause a person or thing to have no further efficiency
b) to deprive of force, influence, power
2) to cause to cease, put an end to, do away with, annul, abolish
a) to cease, to pass away, be done away
b) to be severed from, separated from, discharged from, loosed from any one
c) to terminate all intercourse with one


You asked why they knew only in part and prophesied only in part. Paul tells us why. Paul says their partial knowledge & partial prophecy was directly related to that which is perfect, which had not yet come (vs. 10). That much is at least clear; they could only know in part and prophesy in part BECAUSE that which is perfect had not come yet.

Exactly. I stated that in my post. We are not face to face yet with our perfected spirit that is in His image. Our spirit has already been perfected and transformed into His image. However, our body and soul has not been. That is why we are going through a process called sanctification. We are being perfected. When we have been perfected completely then we will know just as we also are known. Unless you can say you have perfect knowledge of all things then you are not at this point yet, which is another proof that the bible is not the "that which is perfect". The bible has been here for a long time, and there has not been one single person since that knows all things fully. They know in part just as everyone else.


The opposite of this would be that when that which is perfect shall come, then they would have full knowledge and have full prophecy (revelation).

Are you claiming that you have full knowledge of God? If that which is perfect is the bible then why do we have more denominations and divisions of the church than I can count? The reason is because mankind does not have perfect knowledge. The reason mankind does not have perfect knowledge is because they still only know in part. We do not have everything figured out. We do not know as we also are known. Therefore, it is impossible that the bible is that which is perfect.


Do the Scriptures contain the full knowledge and revelation of God?

The Scriptures state that some things have been sealed up and not revealed yet. So no . . . we do not find full knowledge of God by searching the Scriptures. I find it amazing that some think that full knowledge of the most Supreme God and Creator of all things can be contained in a small book. We haven't begun to scratch the surface in this life of what God is all about. You certainly aren't going to know all things about Him just from reading the bible. Even if you could receive all that knowledge from the bible, you along with everyone else is still not figuring everything out perfectly.


Can we fully come to know God through the Scriptures? Can we fully come to know the revelation of God through the Scriptures?

No. Do you know everything about God? Safe answer . . . not even close.


Do I need a word of knowledge and/or revelation from another to fully know God?

You won't fully know anything in this life. But yes, you do need stuff from others. That is why we are the body of Christ, and that is why we rely on one another.


Paul is not speaking of himself in a literal way. He is speaking in parables. Figure out the three parables, figure out the intended meaning. So you are in error to say that Paul “proves” that that which is perfect is not the Bible. Paul does not say “he is going to see it”; Paul is expanding from the second parable where he uses his life as an illustration for the timeframe of when these things will vanish away.

No, I don't believe I'm in error, and I don't believe Paul is talking about himself but really not. That's just another problem with the bible interpretation in this passage. Folks with that interpretation do not let the Scriptures say what they say. They add to the passages or state that they don't mean what they are stating. There is absolutely no reason to believe in this passage that Paul is not talking about himself. He clearly is . . .


This is part of the second parable. It tells us the timeframe as to when that which is perfect shall come. Paul uses an illustration of his own lifespan to show the timeframe in which these gifts would end. An interesting thought is that when Paul writes “to speak” it is a reference to tongues, when Paul writes “to think” it is a reference to knowledge and when Paul writes “to reason” it is a reference to prophecy. This timeframe of one’s life is to show that these would vanish in an observable period of time.

Yes, those gifts passed for Paul when he died and was perfected. He finished the race and received the prize. He no longer needed anything in part. It's very observable, IMO.


Yes, without the completed Scriptures, one can look into them only dimly.

So you have a perfect knowledge of the Scriptures? If not, you are still looking at them dimly. Therefore, you are still seeing that dim reflection in the mirror Paul is talking about.


This is the third parable. They saw through the glass dimly because the Bible had not yet been completed. The completion of the Bible allows one to know the perfect will of God.

You know the perfect will of God through reading the bible? That's not what Paul tells us will prove the perfect will of God. Why don't you walk out this perfect will of God? Why do sinners who have read and know the bible backwards and frontwards still not prove the perfect will of God?



“And do not be conformed to this world but be transformed by the renewing of your mind so that you may prove what the will of God is, that which is good and acceptable and perfect” (Rom. 12:2).

The renewing of the mind comes from looking intently into the perfect law of freedom.


Then why do the unsaved who have read the bible repeatedly not have a renewed mind? Why aren't they now perfect by reading the "that which is perfect" that you claim is the bible?

VerticalReality
Dec 5th 2008, 04:14 PM
Without the bible being completed there is no way for us to have a full understanding of all God's word wants us to know. This is why it eventually had to be completed, and why Prophecy and Knowledge would vanish away. It is not that such things in theory could not happen, it is because they are no longer needed as the knowledge that is now known is deemed sufficient by God himself.

Do you really believe that mankind has a full understanding of God's word?

That passage from James is really key in understanding what Paul was talking about, because James as I recall was written far earlier than 1 Corinthians. Therefore I believe that which is perfect is the completion of the canon of scripture.

Then why doesn't it make everyone that reads it perfect? 1 Corinthians 13 declares that when that which is perfect has come then we will know fully. However, it is very clear that nobody knows fully.

Mysteryman
Dec 5th 2008, 04:43 PM
All right, you say God TELLS us to speak in tongues. really. Find me the commandment that says to the effect, you should all speak in tongues. You will not find it in scripture. Furthermore, the word used for tongues in greek is defined as spoken languages of the nations. Also, even if I agree with your interpretation that tongues are 'mysteries' of God. If as 14 Cor says Knowledge and prophecy have been deactivated, and that tongues shall cease, then if as I believe that happened when the canon of God's word was completed. There is no further need then for tongues to reveal 'mysteries'. None whatsoever. Also someone else in this thread paul taught them to speak in tongues. Which I laugh at because I thought the spiritual gifts all come from God. Meaning No Training. The Galileans the apostles at pentecost spoke in languages they likely did not personally know. I take exception at this point because it is not scriptural.




Funny though how your mocking me about reasoning, and then use your own reasoning to show why its wrong. Very funny indeed. Listen clearly we are not going to agree on this point. And for you to insinuate that because one does not speak tongues is therefore not saved, is not biblical, and is clearly proven false by scripture. I am not going to say anything more to what you have said, for you are convinced in what you believe. I and others have given ample proof, yet you've chosen to ignore or dismiss it. Your doubting of my faith matterrs nothing to me. I know what I believe, and I know how I walk off of this messageboard. That is between me and the Almighty.


I looked up the definition of the word for Apostles. It is the word Apostolos...

The KJV New Testament Greek Lexicon

Strong's Number: 652 Browse Lexicon (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/browse.cgi?number=652&version=kjv) Original WordWord Origin ajpovstoloßfrom (649 (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=649&version=kjv)) Transliterated WordTDNT (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=652&version=kjv#Legend) Entry Apostolos1:407,67 Phonetic Spelling
Parts of Speech
ap-os'-tol-os http://bible.crosswalk.com/images/audio.gif (http://bible.crosswalk.com/cgi-bin/lexicon.pl?id=0652g)

Noun Masculine Definition
a delegate, messenger, one sent forth with orders
specifically applied to the twelve apostles of Christ
in a broader sense applied to other eminent Christian teachers
of Barnabas
of Timothy and Silvanus


King James Word Usage - Total: 81 apostle 78, messenger 2, he that is sent 1
I've never thought about Barnabas as being an Apostle, but the idea is that they were divinely chosen by Christ to spread the Gospel. In the case of the 12, and Saul/Paul all were expressly chosen by Christ. In pauls case via what we might call a Vision.


I've never heard of anyone in our present time who has had such a vision and had it confirmed, Frankly the apostles are not necessarily needed now. Why? Who was paul? Was he not a jew a pharisee? A person who knew the OT and the law well? So when he says we view dimly he knows based on the analogy that the full light of scripture has not been completed. He knows that, he speaks that at some point we will have the full light, that happened when the canon was completed. I don't know what more I can say to convince you of this for you remain unconvinced.






What proof is there that he did or did not see him? I'm afraid I disagree on this point, but there is no evidence that I am aware of that proves or disproves this point.


We are just going to have to agree to disagree here.
Again, I have to say that I am shocked by your replies !

Nothing I stated is my interpretation ! I Corinthians chapter 14 states as clearly as the nose on your face, that speaking in tongues is speaking mysteries unto God.

As far as Paul seeing Jesus Christ, maybe he did. Go into a big city and you might see a million people. Passers by. I meant knew Jesus , as one of the disciples that walked with him and talked with him and Jesus talked back and taught him. This Paul did not do ! So I say that Paul did not know Jesus Christ. That is because scripture never shows us of Saul, who became Paul of knowing Jesus Christ until that day that Jesus spoke to him directly in the book of Acts chapter 9.

And I "never" stated that speaking in tongues is something that saves ! And if you have an issue with another poster, please by all means deal with that poster and not me !

Next, I am not mocking you, please get that straight. I am merely stating that I am shocked by your respones. Christians live by faith, and not by sight. From reading your replies, I see more sight than faith. You make comments off the wall that are not biblically related .

My point is this. If the Word says it, then that settles it. Especially if it is written unto us - Christians - The Church.

Where we have a problem in these discussions, is this. I believe what is written. While you are giving side step replies of why you do not believe. Now , I am not saying that you are not a believer. What I am saying , is that what you read in the Word of God, that which is written unto the Church, you do not seem to want to believe it. You give excuses as to why you can not believe, or should not believe what is written. You say that it has ceased or that it is not needed, and then give an excuse as to why. This is what I do not understand, and it shocks me.

I do not mean to make you upset, or get into any type of argument. All I am trying to do, is trying to understand why you believe the way that you do. I know that the Church is far from being in unity, and it is no wonder as to why. I thought our conversations might bring us closer to what the scriptures actually do say, instead of adding to them or taking away from them, thus making the scriptures nothing more than being speculative conversation. What good is speculating about what scripture tells us ? Especially when we can go back and check the scriptures and get clarification on exactly what it does say ! ?

LookingUp
Dec 5th 2008, 05:03 PM
Question:

If we are made perfect and complete upon our death, what in the world is the transformation that takes place at the resurrection/rapture for?

VerticalReality, you're gonna have rework some of your theology there to hang onto the belief that “that perfect thing which shall come” takes place at our death.

Mysteryman
Dec 5th 2008, 05:22 PM
Paul was not there on the day of pentecost. In fact, his name was Saul at the time of pentecost.

Paul is the author of the seven church epistles. Holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Spirit.

Paul taught the church to speak in tongues. He told us why and what it was for.

He also told us that there would come a day that they would cease. But that day has not come yet.

Paul stated plainly that he spoke in tongues more than they did. He was encouraging them to speak in tonues more than they were.

It is a part of walking in the Spirit as recorded in I Corinth. chapter 12

There are nine manifestations , and gifts of healing is one, and speaking in tongues is another. Along with the other seven which makes a total of nine.

Why would we deny one or two or even all nine of the manifestations ?

It just boggles my mind that believers would think in this manner.

John 4:24 states clearly, that we are to worship God in Spirit and in truth.

Speaking in tongues is worshipping God in Spirit, and knowing this is worshipping God in truth.

The same holds true with worshipping God with the gifts of healing. Or decerning of spirits, or word of knowledge or word of wisdom. And what about "Faith" < which is one of the nine manifestations of the Spirit ?

VerticalReality
Dec 5th 2008, 05:49 PM
Question:

If we are made perfect and complete upon our death, what in the world is the transformation that takes place at the resurrection/rapture for

The resurrection is for that glorified spiritual body. However, our soul will have already been perfected. The "that which is perfect" is our mind and will becoming perfectly transformed into His image. As 2 Corinthians 3:18 clearly states, we see the glory of the Lord in a mirror. However, Paul proclaims that we see in this mirror dimly. Our spirit is already in His image. However, being that we are still in this flesh and our soul has not been perfected yet we are still looking at this mirror dimly.


VerticalReality, you're gonna have rework some of your theology there to hang onto the belief that “that perfect thing which shall come” takes place at our death.

No offense, but I have provided an abundant amount of Scriptural evidence supporting exactly what I've stated. It is the position that states the bible is the "that which is perfect" that totally lacks biblical or logical support in my opinion.

Biblically there is nothing stating the bible is that which is perfect.

And logically, being that I can see clearly that I don't have all knowledge or understanding of the Scriptures, I can see that the bible cannot be that which is perfect.

VerticalReality
Dec 5th 2008, 05:54 PM
Also, I want to add that this discussion has been profitable so far. However, let's try to get all comments directed specifically towards the Scriptures and not let things get personal. Let's just share what we believe and why we believe it. Let's keep things about love and edification.

LookingUp
Dec 5th 2008, 06:44 PM
The resurrection is for that glorified spiritual body. However, our soul will have already been perfected. The "that which is perfect" is our mind and will becoming perfectly transformed into His image.Only our mind will become perfectly transformed into His image? Where is that in Scripture? And where do you find that upon our death, our souls become perfected? Where is that exactly?


As 2 Corinthians 3:18 clearly states, we see the glory of the Lord in a mirror. However, Paul proclaims that we see in this mirror dimly. Our spirit is already in His image. However, being that we are still in this flesh and our soul has not been perfected yet we are still looking at this mirror dimly.You’re gonna have to show me some Scripture for these things here. Where does it say that only our spirit is in His image? “Then God said, ‘Let Us make man in Our image…’” (Gen. 1:26)


No offense, but I have provided an abundant amount of Scriptural evidence supporting exactly what I've stated. It is the position that states the bible is the "that which is perfect" that totally lacks biblical or logical support.Vertical, we have been redeemed already (1 Peter 1:18). We are already raised up with Him, we are already seated with Him in the heavenly places (Eph. 2:6), we're already sanctified (1 Cor. 6:11).

We have been made alive in Christ (Eph. 2:5) and our lives are hidden in God with Christ (Col. 3:3).

Even so, we will not be perfected UNTIL the resurrection/rapture at which time we will receive our glorified bodies.

“…even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our body” (Rom. 8:23).

The adoption as sons IS the redemption of our body. The redemption of our BODY does not take place UNTIL the resurrection/rapture. Upon our death, our spirit leaves our body, BUT we must still await the adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies.

“For indeed in this house we groan, longing to be clothed with our dwelling from heaven, inasmuch as we, having put it on, will not be found naked” (1 Cor. 5:2-3). We will groan and long to be clothed as long as we are not clothed. We are naked UNTIL we are clothed with our dwelling (clothes) from heaven which takes place at the resurrection/rapture.

“For while we are in this tent, we groan, being burdened, because we do not want to be unclothed but to be clothed, so that what is mortal will be swallowed up by life” (1 Cor. 5:4). We will groan & be burdened UNTIL that what is mortal will be swallowed up by life.

“Behold, I tell you a mystery, we will not all sleep but we will be changed in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable and we will be changed. For this perishable will have put on the imperishable, and this mortal will have put on immortality, then will come about what is written, ‘Death is swallowed up in victory’ (1 Cor. 15:51-54). We will not put on the imperishable nor will we put on immortality UNTIL the resurrection/rapture.

VerticalReality
Dec 5th 2008, 07:24 PM
Only our mind will become perfectly transformed into His image? Where is that in Scripture? And where do you find that upon our death, our souls become perfected? Where is that exactly?

The Scripture I just gave you in 2 Corinthians 3:18 states that we are being transformed into His image. So, what is it that is being transformed? Our spirit? Nope. The Word says that in the spirit we are already complete in Him . . .

Colossians 2:9-10
For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily; and you are complete in Him, who is the head of all principality and power.

In the Greek the term for complete here is πληρόω and it means to make full or to render perfect. So this passage states that we have been made full or perfect in Him. However, we are not perfect in body or the mind. We are perfect in spirit in Him. So, it is not our spirit that is being transformed from glory to glory as 2 Corinthians 3:18 points out. It is our mind that we are renewing according to Romans 12:2 that is being transformed from glory to glory. It is our mind that must be changed or transformed . . .

Romans 12:1-2
I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that you present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable to God, which is your reasonable service. And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.

Why does our mind need to be transformed? Because it's not in His image and needs to be changed into it just as 2 Corinthians 3:18 declares.


You’re gonna have to show me some Scripture for these things here. Where does it say that only our spirit is in His image? “Then God said, ‘Let Us make man in Our image…’” (Gen. 1:26)

The teaching that we are currently made in God's image is one of the most common false teachings out there. We are not in God's image right now. We are made in the image of Adam. It was Adam who was created in the image of God. However, if you notice in Genesis 5 after the fall of man Adam and Eve conceived Seth. Have a look at what the Word says about Seth . . .

Genesis 5:1-3
This is the book of the genealogy of Adam. In the day that God created man, He made him in the likeness of God. He created them male and female, and blessed them and called them Mankind in the day they were created. And Adam lived one hundred and thirty years, and begot a son in his own likeness, after his image, and named him Seth.

As you can see by this Scripture. Seth was made in the image and likeness of Adam. This is a fallen and sinful Adam, which is why we are all born under the curse of sin. Had Adam never fallen we would all still be in the image of God. However, being that we are born under sin we are also born spiritually dead, separated from God and no longer in His image. This is why Jesus stated in John 3 that we must be born again to see the kingdom of heaven. We are born again spiritually and transformed back into His image in the spirit when we accept by faith the gift offered by the Lord. Without this spiritual rebirth we will remain dead and cannot inherit the kingdom of heaven. This life is about transformation of body, soul and spirit. The spirit is transformed at salvation, the soul is transformed from glory to glory throughout this life as we seek Him, and the body is transformed when our Lord Jesus Christ descends from heaven with a shout at His Second Coming. Our Lord is currently in the process of returning things back to the way He created them in the beginning.


Vertical, we have been redeemed already (1 Peter 1:18). We are already raised up with Him, we are already seated with Him in the heavenly places (Eph. 2:6), we're already sanctified (1 Cor. 6:11).

Sure you are . . . in the spirit. It is your spirit that is currently seated with Christ in the heavenlies. It is your spirit that is currently sanctified and perfect. Your body and soul certainly are not. However, being that we are now new creations in Christ Jesus through the spirit our Father no longer has to deal with us through that which is corrupt.


We have been made alive in Christ (Eph. 2:5) and our lives are hidden in God with Christ (Col. 3:3).

Yet you are currently dying . . . so then this must mean that you are alive in Him through your spirit.


Even so, we will not be perfected UNTIL the resurrection/rapture at which time we will receive our glorified bodies.

However, the soul and spirit will be perfected before then.


“…even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our body” (Rom. 8:23).

Agree that we are awaiting for this world and the flesh to be put to an end . . .


The adoption as sons IS the redemption of our body. The redemption of our BODY does not take place UNTIL the resurrection/rapture. Upon our death, our spirit leaves our body, BUT we must still await the adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies.

The Word declares that we are already His children because we have His Spirit . . .

Romans 8:14-17
For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, "Abba, Father." The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, and if children, then heirs--heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with [Him], that we may also be glorified together.


We will not put on the imperishable nor will we put on immortality UNTIL the resurrection/rapture

I agree the body will not be perfected until the Second Coming of the Lord Jesus Christ.

LookingUp
Dec 5th 2008, 07:25 PM
Paul was not there on the day of pentecost. In fact, his name was Saul at the time of pentecost.The events on Shavuot (Pentecost) were a Jewish experience. It was not the beginning of the Body of Christ. The Body of Christ is the reconciling of the two into one (Eph. 2:15-16). The events of Shavuot included the one (circumcision). It was partial fulfillment of what was promised to Israel (Joel 2). Shavuot was connected with the giving of the Torah at Sinai (the events parallel those at Sinai). The giving of the Spirit on Shavuot is like the giving of the Torah as both are the breath of God. Just as the finger of God wrote the Law non the tablets, no the finger of God writes the Law on the disciples’ hearts. Just as fire was accompanied by the presence of God at Sinai, so were tongues of fire on Shavuot. A brother explained, “According to the rabbinic take on a couple of OT verses, when the voice of God thundered at Sinai, ‘every single word going forth from the Almighty was split into 70 languages.’ So again in the going forth of the Spirit of the New Covenant, God's revelation is split into the 70 languages of the nations. (70 in rabbinic thought is the typical number of the world's nations; it's not meant in a mathematical sense.) Just as Israel, because of their willingness to receive God's Torah (Exodus 24:7) was the only nation who comprehended God's multilingual revelation at Sinai, so now only those whose hearts are open to God's Spirit hear "the wonderful works of God" in their own language; like the Gentile nations who failed to hear, those unreceptive to the voice of the Spirit heard only drunken babbling.”


Paul is the author of the seven church epistles. Holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Spirit.

Paul taught the church to speak in tongues. He told us why and what it was for.Yes, Paul cited Isa. 28 (see 1 Cor. 14:21). Paul said that tongues were for a sign to unbelievers (1 Cor. 14:22). Jews require a sign (1 Cor. 1:22).

What was the prophetic reason for tongues according to Paul? In 1 Cor. 14 Paul cites Isa 28:11 (see quote below)...


“Paul's use of Isaiah 28 is clearly midrashic. The original prophecy is an oracle of destruction against Judah. The overall section of the book (chs. 24-35) is directed at Judah, but at least the first half of 28 is addressed to the leadership of the northern kingdom ("Ephraim"). It's been suggested that the first half of 28 is a retrospective, citing the destruction of Samaria as an example to the Judean leadership. The latter half of 28 is most likely a prophecy of the conquest of Judah, first by Assyria (from which God delivered them in response to Hezekiah's repentance) and later by Babylon (which happened). The foreign language referred to in the prophecy is the language of the Gentile conquerors. (There's sort of an ironic twist on this in Isaiah 36, where Rabshakeh addresses the people in Hebrew and the Judean delegation pleads with him to speak in Aramaic instead, so the people won't understand their threats.) The idea of the prophecy is that God has expressed Himself very clearly through His prophets, but the people complain insolently that the word of the prophets is incomprehensible to them, so they're not obeying it. God's response: "OK, if you think My word is incomprehensible, fine. I'll make it literally incomprehensible to you." We see a similar principle in Jesus' use of parables. He doesn't speak plainly to the people because the people are unwilling to hear. Because of their hard-heartedness, He deliberately speaks in an unclear manner so as to furnish them an excuse for not listening -- it's all very ironic. When God addresses Israel in a Gentile language, that in itself is a declaration of judgment, that God would speak to His chosen people through a vessel not of the chosen people.


Paul's reworking of the Isaiah oracle has little to do with its original context. His focus is specifically on the phrase (actually a single word in Greek) "foreign languages." He's co-opting this phrase from the prophecy of Gentile destruction of Jerusalem to point out that the manifestation of tongues in Corinth serves as an indicator that God has concluded Israel in unbelief and has turned His focus to the Gentiles. It's a brilliant midrash.

The manifestation of the Spirit in the gift of tongues was an indicator of God's judgment on the unbelieving Jews, as Paul so masterfully derives from Isaiah. Once that purpose had been fulfilled -- God doesn't need to keep making this same statement about the Jews and the church for 2000 years -- the gift ceases”

I hope the above info. was helpful.


...
Paul stated plainly that he spoke in tongues more than they did. He was encouraging them to speak in tonues more than they were.Can you give the Scripture that verifies Paul is encouraging them to speak in tongues more than they were?

NAS reads, “…I desire to speak five words with my mind so that I may instruct others also, rather than ten thousand words in a tongue” (1 Cor. 19)


It is a part of walking in the Spirit as recorded in I Corinth. chapter 12Can you expand with Scripture?


There are nine manifestations , and gifts of healing is one, and speaking in tongues is another. Along with the other seven which makes a total of nine.


Why would we deny one or two or even all nine of the manifestations ?

It just boggles my mind that believers would think in this manner.It is quite possible that what was for someone then does not mean it is for everyone now. What was for the Body then does not necessarily make it so for the Body now. Obviously, it is so for these things as Paul warned them that these three things would either cease or fade away. I still say, why even warn them if these things were only to fade away at one’s death or at the return of Christ? What’s the purpose of the warning if the timeframe for the ceasing or fading away has no impact on their lives? Why in the world would they care that the gifts cease upon death or the return of Christ? Of course they are not going to need to speak in foreign tongues in the afterlife. Of course they are not going to prophesy in the afterlife.


John 4:24 states clearly, that we are to worship God in Spirit and in truth.And we can’t do that without manifesting one of these gifts?


Speaking in tongues is worshipping God in Spirit, and knowing this is worshipping God in truth.And one can’t worship God in Spirit without manifesting a foreign tongue? One can’t worship in truth without accepting your doctrine?


The same holds true with worshipping God with the gifts of healing. Or decerning of spirits, or word of knowledge or word of wisdom. And what about "Faith" < which is one of the nine manifestations of the Spirit ?Paul spoke of only three that would either cease or fade away; gifts of tongues, knowledge and prophecy.

LookingUp
Dec 5th 2008, 07:44 PM
The Scripture I just gave you in 2 Corinthians 3:18 states that we are being transformed into His image. So, what is it that is being transformed? Our spirit? Nope. The Word says that in the spirit we are already complete in Him . . . Great post. Okay, I think I am following you for the most part now. Great clarification on the image of God/Adam as well.

The only thing I am still not seeing is that the soul is perfected upon death. Where is that? I know our minds are renewed daily, but I have not found anything to support that our soul will be perfected in the image of Christ upon our death.

Paul explained that this groaning and burden will last until we are clothed, the time of the resurrection/rapture. If our souls are perfected and in the image of Christ upon our deaths, why are we still naked and burdened UNTIL we are clothed at the transformation of our bodies?

The subject of body, soul, spirit is probably for another thread. But the soul/life is simply that which exists when the body has the breath of God in it.

Going back to your explanation of Adam being in the image of God, we know that Adam was in his image AFTER the breath of God entered into his lifeless body. That entire body, soul, & spirit of Adam was in the image of God. Therefore, our soul without the body cannot be in the image of God. Neither can our spirit be in His image. They are only parts of the perfect image. Until the redemption of our bodies, we will not be in his image. What do you think?

chad
Dec 5th 2008, 07:51 PM
If prophecy became dormant according to 1 Cor, then why does Paul say in 1 Cor 14:1, eagerly desire spritual gifts, especially the gift of propohecy.

(1 Cor 14:1 NIV) Follow the way of love and eagerly desire spiritual gifts, especially the gift of prophecy.


Paul also writes to the Romans,

(Rom 12:6 NIV) We have different gifts, according to the grace given us. If a man's gift is prophesying, let him use it in proportion to his faith.


Chad :confused


[quote=Veretax;1893157][quote=chad;1893027]

First off it is a twist of my posts, and that of Gods word to say that ALL of the gifts have passed away. There are only three which are clear from 1 Cor that will cease or vanish away. Prophecy and Knowledge are said to be come dormant (not active), and Tongues are said to cease of themselves. There is nothing elsewhere that I am aware of that would cause the other gifts to cease or vanish in scripture. So please do not take my words as if I am saying that for that is not what I said, nor do I believe that.

LookingUp
Dec 5th 2008, 07:54 PM
...I don't hold the belief that the gifts are active until Jesus Christ returns. I stated they are active for us until we are completed and perfected. When we are perfected we will no longer need anything in part. We will know fully.Hey Vertical, even though we are in agreement on many things, I still have not found a very good answer to the following. Let me ask it again based on your understanding of WHEN that which is perfect comes.

What’s the purpose of Paul's warning if the timeframe for the ceasing or fading away has no impact on their lives? Why in the world would they care that the gifts cease upon death? Of course they are not going to need to speak in foreign tongues in the afterlife. Of course they are not going to prophesy in the afterlife.

Thanks! :)

Mysteryman
Dec 5th 2008, 07:59 PM
I Corinthians 14:5 - "I would that ye all spake with tongues"

I Corinthains 14:18 - "I thank my God , I speak with tongues more than ye all"

We have two records here 1. Paul wants us all to speak in tongues. 2. He speaks in tongues more than ye all" is an encouragement to speak in tongues more.

In I Corinthians 14:22 -tongues are for a sign unto the unbeliever

It is clear in verse 22 that tongues are for those who do not believe. It is a sign that God is working in you, unto the unbelieving (er). This does not mean that everyone will believe the sign. It just clearly indicates that tongues is a sign unto the unbeliever.

chad
Dec 5th 2008, 08:15 PM
I believe that the Holy spirit still works in the church today and that all the gifts can still operate, according to the Holy spirit.

According to 1 Corinthians 12:4-12 it teaches, that it is the Holy Spirit who decides which gifts to distribute and how they are worked in the church.

(1 Cor 12:4 NIV) There are different kinds of gifts, but the same Spirit.
(1 Cor 12:5 NIV) There are different kinds of service, but the same Lord.
(1 Cor 12:6 NIV) There are different kinds of working, but the same God works all of them in all men.

(1 Cor 12:11 NIV) All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he gives them to each one, just as he determines.


Is it possible that the distribution and working of the gifts may have changed, since the time of the apostles. Is it possible that God uses the same gifts, but has different workings in the church.

Paul also writes that some gifts such as prophesying work in proportion to our faith.

(Rom 12:6 NIV) We have different gifts, according to the grace given us. If a man's gift is prophesying, let him use it in proportion to his faith.

Is it possible that the Holy Spirit could work differently according to the faith of the apostles (Being eye-witness accounts and having direct teaching from Jesus). That is why they operated the way they did in the early church.



Chad :rolleyes:




[quote=Veretax;1893157]
I just finished reading what you wrote, and I am shocked to say the least. Why would we speak in tongues ? If for nothing else we are speaking unto God - I Corinth. 14:2. Yet, it is more than just speaking unto God, even though that is a great reason to speak in tongues. The Word tells us that we speak "mysteries" while we are speaking to God. Mysteries are the hidden things of God, by the way. If you talk to God in your own language, this is 'your understanding' from your known language. So this means, that you are not speaking mysteries (hidden things) unto God. By speaking in tongues, you do not "reason" why, you do it because God has told us to do so. It is no different than when God told Moses to lead his people out of Egypt. Moses doubted within his own mind, and God was not pleased with Moses for doubting within himself.

It builds us up spiritually to speak in tongues. Is that not another good enough reason ? And to think that all of this knowledge and understanding comes from the scriptures given to the Church.

Here is the problem as I see it. Our lack of faith is based upon the fact that a certain individual, or individuals, lacks the faith to believe God. If you try and reason everything out within your own way of thinking. Then God's way is not in you. You are trying to reason everything out with your earthly mind.

Remember, from our five senses, it didn't make any sense for God to tell Moses to go into the desert and just believe God to feed them and give them water to drink from a rock, etc. By our five senses it just does not make any sense.

Speaking in tongues is the exact same ! Maybe to you it does not make any sense by your five senses. But God does not ask us to walk by our five senses. He asks us to walk spiritually. Don't question why, just do it ! We have enough information in the scriptures unto the Church for us to "not" question God about speaking in tongues. So why would anyone question God , when it is His will for us unto the Church ?

VerticalReality
Dec 5th 2008, 08:33 PM
The only thing I am still not seeing is that the soul is perfected upon death. Where is that? I know our minds are renewed daily, but I have not found anything to support that our soul will be perfected in the image of Christ upon our death.

The mind is part of the soul. Your soul is your mind, will and emotions; or the intangibles . . . so to speak.


Paul explained that this groaning and burden will last until we are clothed, the time of the resurrection/rapture. If our souls are perfected and in the image of Christ upon our deaths, why are we still naked and burdened UNTIL we are clothed at the transformation of our bodies?

Because the body will be in the grave. The finished product is a glorified body as well. Everything won't be totally back the way God created it until our body is perfected also. Therefore, this world and everything in it will continue to groan until that Day when Christ returns and those glorified bodies will come to pass.


The subject of body, soul, spirit is probably for another thread. But the soul/life is simply that which exists when the body has the breath of God in it.

This seems to be taking a soul sleep turn with this view here . . .

This view implies that the soul is simply a uniting of the body and spirit. This view also implies that when the body dies and the spirit returns to the Lord then the soul "sleeps". However, if the soul is simply a uniting of the body and spirit then that would mean that if the spirit exits the body and returns to the Lord then the soul would cease to exist. There are Scriptures that show that not to be the case.

Proverbs 23:13-14
Do not withhold correction from a child,
For if you beat him with a rod, he will not die.
You shall beat him with a rod,
And deliver his soul from hell.

This Scripture, for example, states that disciplining a child will deliver his soul from hell. How, if this child has died, does his soul go to hell? If the soul is merely a uniting of the body with the spirit (or breath of God) then when the spirit goes back to the Lord and the body goes to the grave the soul will cease to exist. However, the Scripture in Proverbs 23 states that the soul will be in hell and it definitely does still exist.

Also refer to the rich man and Lazarus. The rich man was not in a physical place of torment. It was not his body that was in torment. His body was simply in the grave. It was his soul that was in torment. Lazarus was in Abraham's bosom.

Anyway, this is kind of getting off topic a little bit, so I will end there . . .

VerticalReality
Dec 5th 2008, 08:40 PM
Hey Vertical, even though we are in agreement on many things, I still have not found a very good answer to the following. Let me ask it again based on your understanding of WHEN that which is perfect comes.

What’s the purpose of Paul's warning if the timeframe for the ceasing or fading away has no impact on their lives? Why in the world would they care that the gifts cease upon death? Of course they are not going to need to speak in foreign tongues in the afterlife. Of course they are not going to prophesy in the afterlife.

Thanks! :)

The point Paul is trying to deliver is not a warning that the gifts are going to pass away. We actually make the focus of 1 Corinthians 13 about something that is actually a side issue. The focus and purpose of Paul delivering the message of 1 Corinthians 13 is to emphasize and magnify the importance of love. It is not the gifts that are an issue. It is love that is the true issue. The warning is that it is of no use to focus on gifts and deny love. Why? Because love is eternal. Love never fails. Love will never stop. It goes on forever . . . even into eternity. However, the gifts . . . they will cease. The gifts are not needed in eternity, so why make that our focus? We need to make love our focus because that is what truly matters.

LookingUp
Dec 5th 2008, 08:50 PM
I Corinthians 14:5 - "I would that ye all spake with tongues"


I Corinthains 14:18 - "I thank my God , I speak with tongues more than ye all"The more he did this, the more God was using him to bring Gentiles of other tongues to faith. As he did so, he was praying in his spirit and giving God glory and being edified, as we all do when we pray in the spirit (in our own tongue) and give God glory and our spirit is edified.


We have two records here 1. Paul wants us all to speak in tongues.No, Paul does not say he wants “us” all to speak in tongues. Paul is speaking to a specific group of believers in Corinth. And why wouldn’t he want all of them to speak in tongues with all the various tongues coming through that town?


2. He speaks in tongues more than ye all" is an encouragement to speak in tongues more.


In I Corinthians 14:22 -tongues are for a sign unto the unbeliever

It is clear in verse 22 that tongues are for those who do not believe. It is a sign that God is working in you, unto the unbelieving (er). This does not mean that everyone will believe the sign. It just clearly indicates that tongues is a sign unto the unbeliever.Read 1 Cor. 14:21 and 22 together. Then read the post above regarding what the purpose of Paul’s citing Isa. 28 was all about. Paul did not cite Isa. 28 so we could skip over it and its meaning.

The reason they were speaking in foreign Gentile tongues was a sign from God that He was judging unbelieving Israel (“for unbelievers”). Tongues were not a sign for unbelieving Gentiles. Tongues were a sign for unbelieving Israel who WAS (past tense) judged. The sign of tongues is no longer needed AFTER the judgment has been rendered. They fulfilled their purpose and ceased.

LookingUp
Dec 5th 2008, 08:57 PM
The mind is part of the soul. Your soul is your mind, will and emotions; or the intangibles . . . so to speak.But that still doesn’t prove that our soul is perfected upon death. I was asking for the Scripture that shows that our soul is perfected upon death.


Because the body will be in the grave. The finished product is a glorified body as well. Everything won't be totally back the way God created it until our body is perfected also. Therefore, this world and everything in it will continue to groan until that Day when Christ returns and those glorified bodies will come to pass.


This seems to be taking a soul sleep turn with this view here . . . I appreciate what you are saying, but that was not really what I was trying to get at. I’ll post my question again and go ahead and reply if you’d like.

Going back to your explanation of Adam being in the image of God, we know that Adam was in his image AFTER the breath of God entered into his lifeless body. That entire body, soul, & spirit of Adam was in the image of God. Therefore, our soul without the body cannot be in the image of God. Neither can our spirit be in His image. They are only parts of the perfect image. Until the redemption of our bodies, we will not be in his image. What do you think?

Mysteryman
Dec 5th 2008, 09:12 PM
The point Paul is trying to deliver is not a warning that the gifts are going to pass away. We actually make the focus of 1 Corinthians 13 about something that is actually a side issue. The focus and purpose of Paul deliving the message of 1 Corinthians 13 is to emphasize and magnify the importance of love. It is not the gifts that are an issue. It is love that is the true issue. The warning is that it is of no use to focus on gifts and deny love. Why? Because love is eternal. Love never fails. Love will never stop. It goes on forever . . . even into eternity. However, the gifts . . . they will cease. The gifts are not needed in eternity, so why make that our focus? We need to make love our focus because that is what truly matters.
I agree !

But may I point out something, that has gone on for the last couple of days.

Not all will speak in tongues, and not all will do miracles, and not all will heal with the gifts of healing. Etc.

However, we can not let anyone say that they no longer exist either. Or that they have become ceased for any reason. Because they have not.

The truth still needs to stand upon this issue. Love never fails, and love will never cease.

But the nine manifestations are still in "operation" even now as we speak.

Tongues are for a sign unto those that believe not. And with interpretation of tongues, it will show unto the unbeliever that God is working in you.

I Corinth. 13 also tells us, that even if we give all our goods to feed the poor and have not love, it is "nothing" in God's eyes.

God tells us, that we are to be good to all, and give to all, but the Word tells us specifically that we are to be "especially good" unto the household of faith !

If we feed the poor and we do not love the needs of our brothers and sisters IN Christ , then we do not have love !

The interesting thing about "Love" is defined right here in chapter 13 - "Love" - suffers long - is kind - envieth not - vaunteth not itself - is not puffed up - does not behave itself unseemly - seeketh not her own - is not provoked - thinketh no evil - rejoiceth not in iniquity, but --- "rejoiceth in truth" <- Rejoiceth in Truth !

"Love" - beareth all things - believeth all things - hopeth all things - endureth all things - Love never fails.

This is a huge definition of the word - "Love"

So , "Love" is not feeding the poor people. "Love" is caring for all, but especially unto the household of - > "Faith".

Faith is a "believer", not an unbeliever !

The household of faith comes - > First ! < This is truth, and "Love" rejoiceth in truth.

The household of faith believes in the operation of the nine manifestation of the Spirit . It does not mean that all will operate them, nor does it state that we will operate all nine. But we do "believe" in the operation of the nine manifestations of the Spirit !

I for one have operated all nine. But that does not mean that others have to operate all nine. It is not a law ! Nor a requisite ! Some will only operate speaking in tongues.

In Acts chapter 19 we see Paul teaching at Ephesus - saying - Have you received the Holy Spirit since you believed ? They said that they were baptized with John's baptism, which was by water. They then were baptize in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ. Then the gift of the holy spirit came upon them and they spoke in tongues and prophesied.

This was a part of Paul's ministry to lead those who would believe into the baptism of the Holy Spirit and then they speak in tongues and prophesied. Two of the nine manifestatins of the Spirit. < These are "called" > Believers !

Mysteryman
Dec 5th 2008, 09:17 PM
The more he did this, the more God was using him to bring Gentiles of other tongues to faith. As he did so, he was praying in his spirit and giving God glory and being edified, as we all do when we pray in the spirit (in our own tongue) and give God glory and our spirit is edified.

No, Paul does not say he wants “us” all to speak in tongues. Paul is speaking to a specific group of believers in Corinth. And why wouldn’t he want all of them to speak in tongues with all the various tongues coming through that town?

Read 1 Cor. 14:21 and 22 together. Then read the post above regarding what the purpose of Paul’s citing Isa. 28 was all about. Paul did not cite Isa. 28 so we could skip over it and its meaning.

The reason they were speaking in foreign Gentile tongues was a sign from God that He was judging unbelieving Israel (“for unbelievers”). Tongues were not a sign for unbelieving Gentiles. Tongues were a sign for unbelieving Israel who WAS (past tense) judged. The sign of tongues is no longer needed AFTER the judgment has been rendered. They fulfilled their purpose and ceased.
You are not praying in the Spirit when you pray in your own language !

Key words here > "In the Spirit"

To be - In the Spirit - you must be operating the manifestations of "The Spirit" , mentioned in I Corinth. chapter 12 !

It is private interpretation to claim you are praying in the Spirit when you pray in your own known language.

It is also private interpretation to say that Paul was speaking in a foreign gentile language. Paul specifically told us that tongues is of men or of angels. The one speaking does not know which !

Mysteryman
Dec 5th 2008, 09:30 PM
The more he did this, the more God was using him to bring Gentiles of other tongues to faith. As he did so, he was praying in his spirit and giving God glory and being edified, as we all do when we pray in the spirit (in our own tongue) and give God glory and our spirit is edified.

No, Paul does not say he wants “us” all to speak in tongues. Paul is speaking to a specific group of believers in Corinth. And why wouldn’t he want all of them to speak in tongues with all the various tongues coming through that town?

Read 1 Cor. 14:21 and 22 together. Then read the post above regarding what the purpose of Paul’s citing Isa. 28 was all about. Paul did not cite Isa. 28 so we could skip over it and its meaning.

The reason they were speaking in foreign Gentile tongues was a sign from God that He was judging unbelieving Israel (“for unbelievers”). Tongues were not a sign for unbelieving Gentiles. Tongues were a sign for unbelieving Israel who WAS (past tense) judged. The sign of tongues is no longer needed AFTER the judgment has been rendered. They fulfilled their purpose and ceased.
I wanted to comment on your last statement seperately

"Love" rejoices in truth. I have no idea where you get this idea from ! I am talking about this "whole" last paragraph . I can not find anywhere in scripture that would back up what you are saying here.

Even earlier in this post, I quoted scripture to you, that Paul specifically states that "I would that ye all spake with tongues". And you turn it right around and claim that it does not say that . Then you go on to claim that tongues is a language to communicate with all those languages that came into town ??? < Where is all of this idealism coming from ? It seems to me to be coming from your own imagination, and not from the Word of God. Would you like to clarify ?

LookingUp
Dec 5th 2008, 09:46 PM
I wanted to comment on your last statement seperately

"Love" rejoices in truth. I have no idea where you get this idea from ! I am talking about this "whole" last paragraph . I can not find anywhere in scripture that would back up what you are saying here.

Even earlier in this post, I quoted scripture to you, that Paul specifically states that "I would that ye all spake with tongues". And you turn it right around and claim that it does not say that . Then you go on to claim that tongues is a language to communicate with all those languages that came into town ??? < Where is all of this idealism coming from ? It seems to me to be coming from your own imagination, and not from the Word of God. Would you like to clarify ?Go back and read all my previous posts for clarification. I don't have time to cut & paste again.

You skip over my posts and don't bother addressing any of my questions. It's probably best to end my discussion with you in this area since no progress is being made.

VerticalReality
Dec 5th 2008, 09:47 PM
But that still doesn’t prove that our soul is perfected upon death. I was asking for the Scripture that shows that our soul is perfected upon death.

If we are with the Lord we have to be perfected. Nothing imperfect or corrupt can be with the Lord.


I appreciate what you are saying, but that was not really what I was trying to get at. I’ll post my question again and go ahead and reply if you’d like.

Going back to your explanation of Adam being in the image of God, we know that Adam was in his image AFTER the breath of God entered into his lifeless body. That entire body, soul, & spirit of Adam was in the image of God. Therefore, our soul without the body cannot be in the image of God. Neither can our spirit be in His image. They are only parts of the perfect image. Until the redemption of our bodies, we will not be in his image. What do you think?

You imply that Adam was in the image of God because he was a body, soul and spirit. Therefore, you then infer that if the body, soul and spirt are not intact then we cannot be in His image.

However, what makes you believe that it is the body, soul and spirit intact that makes us in His image? If that were the case we would still be in His image now because we are a body, soul and spirit intact as we speak. However, the Scriptures declare that we are still not in His image even though we are body, soul and spirit.

What caused Adam to not be in His image? The answer . . . iniquity. It was not until Adam sinned did we no longer remain in His image. Therefore, the opposite would have to be true in order for us to return to His image. We would have to be free from iniquity in order for us to return back to His image. We are sin free right now in the spirit. Our spirit is completely sin free and cannot sin. Therefore, it has been perfected and is in His image. Our mind, will and emotions, however, are still corruptible if we walk in the flesh. We are not perfected yet in the mind, will and emotions. Perfection will not be attained in this life for our soul. This is why we must continue to crucify our flesh so that we renew our mind daily being transformed from glory to glory into His image. His image is one without corruption. We have this in spirit. According to your theory we couldn't even have this in spirit without the body and soul being the same.

LookingUp
Dec 5th 2008, 10:48 PM
[/font][/color]

If we are with the Lord we have to be perfected. Nothing imperfect or corrupt can be with the Lord.We are not complete and how the Lord intends us to be anytime before the resurrection. Whether you want to call it perfection or not is up to you. We will not be in the image He intends for us to be in until the resurrection.

By the way, just where does it say that nothing imperfect can “be” with the Lord. The Lord has “been” with and interacted with many imperfect saints throughout history.

The Lord has no interaction with the “corrupt” in Hades? He is incapable of communicating and interacting with them?

One must be born again to enter the kingdom of God, but we already are born again. We already have entered His kingdom.

I’m not saying our souls are corrupt upon death. God has redeemed us already. The seal/pledge of the Holy Spirit seals us unto the day of redemption. The seal is on our hearts (part of our soul) not our bodies. The seal remains as down payment even after our death. It is a down payment as the redemption of our whole body/soul (body soul and spirt); not just physical body.

You are speaking as if we are redeemed in steps. First our spirit, then our soul, and then our body. For those of us who receive Christ on our death beds, where is the redeeming process of the soul in that case? The step for that is skipped? Whether one lives out his life as a believer and another becomes a believer on his death bed, their souls are equally redeemed upon death.

So if our soul is still not redeemed, where is the down payment for that? Where is the seal of the redemption of our souls if our souls are not redeemed?

To say that we will be like Him and in His image upon our death has still not been proven by Scripture. Scripture does say that we will be like Him WHEN He appears at His coming…

“…it has not appeared as yet what we will be. We know that when He appears, we will be like Him…” (1 John 3:2).


You imply that Adam was in the image of God because he was a body, soul and spirit. Therefore, you then infer that if the body, soul and spirt are not intact then we cannot be in His image.God said He would make man in His image and then He formed man of dust from the ground breathed into his nostrils the breath of life and man became a living being in the image of God. Seems fairly straight forward. God didn’t create a spirit and say he was in His image. God didn’t create a lifeless body and say he was in His image.


However, what makes you believe that it is the body, soul and spirit intact that makes us in His image? If that were the case we would still be in His image now because we are a body, soul and spirit intact as we speak.That’s not true. As you pointed out, we are now in the image of Adam after he sinned.


However, the Scriptures declare that we are still not in His image even though we are body, soul and spirit.


What caused Adam to not be in His image? The answer . . . iniquity. It was not until Adam sinned did we no longer remain in His image. Therefore, the opposite would have to be true in order for us to return to His image. We would have to be free from iniquity in order for us to return back to His image.Yes, the image would have to be free from inequity. The image is not a soul by itself. The sin-free image is body, soul, and spirit.


We are sin free right now in the spirit. Our spirit is completely sin free and cannot sin. Therefore, it has been perfected and is in His image.I disagree. He has redeemed our soul but our soul is not in His image.


Our mind, will and emotions, however, are still corruptible if we walk in the flesh. We are not perfected yet in the mind, will and emotions. Perfection will not be attained in this life for our soul. This is why we must continue to crucify our flesh so that we renew our mind daily being transformed from glory to glory into His image. His image is one without corruption...His image is perfect body, soul, and spirit (triune being) made in the image of our triune God.

Mysteryman
Dec 5th 2008, 10:59 PM
[/font][/color]

If we are with the Lord we have to be perfected. Nothing imperfect or corrupt can be with the Lord.

[color=black][font=Verdana]

You imply that Adam was in the image of God because he was a body, soul and spirit. Therefore, you then infer that if the body, soul and spirt are not intact then we cannot be in His image.

However, what makes you believe that it is the body, soul and spirit intact that makes us in His image? If that were the case we would still be in His image now because we are a body, soul and spirit intact as we speak. However, the Scriptures declare that we are still not in His image even though we are body, soul and spirit.

What caused Adam to not be in His image? The answer . . . iniquity. It was not until Adam sinned did we no longer remain in His image. Therefore, the opposite would have to be true in order for us to return to His image. We would have to be free from iniquity in order for us to return back to His image. We are sin free right now in the spirit. Our spirit is completely sin free and cannot sin. Therefore, it has been perfected and is in His image. Our mind, will and emotions, however, are still corruptible if we walk in the flesh. We are not perfected yet in the mind, will and emotions. Perfection will not be attained in this life for our soul. This is why we must continue to crucify our flesh so that we renew our mind daily being transformed from glory to glory into His image. His image is one without corruption. We have this in spirit. According to your theory we couldn't even have this in spirit without the body and soul being the same.

Actually the image of God is in Gen. 1:27 - Male & Female in the one man Adam

Lamplighter
Dec 5th 2008, 11:28 PM
Where in scripture does it say the Holy Spirit gifts gives a Christian supernatural powers and abilities?:confused

I do see in scripture however, where the Holy Spirit works through peoples abilities in the ministry where God places them, which is a gift from God no doubt.

VerticalReality
Dec 6th 2008, 03:06 AM
We are not complete and how the Lord intends us to be anytime before the resurrection. Whether you want to call it perfection or not is up to you. We will not be in the image He intends for us to be in until the resurrection.

I have already referenced Scripture for you that says we are complete and perfect in spirit. So yes, in spirit we are exactly how He wants us to be.


By the way, just where does it say that nothing imperfect can “be” with the Lord. The Lord has “been” with and interacted with many imperfect saints throughout history.

There are several places throughout the Word that declares that nothing sinful or wicked will enter His kingdom. I won't go referencing those for you because they are very easy to find. Just do a search at biblegateway.com . . .


One must be born again to enter the kingdom of God, but we already are born again. We already have entered His kingdom.

Sure you have . . . again, in spirit . . .


The seal is on our hearts (part of our soul) not our bodies. The seal remains as down payment even after our death. It is a down payment as the redemption of our whole body/soul (body soul and spirt); not just physical body.

Where is the Scripture that declares that the Holy Spirit is our guarantee of both the body and soul being perfected at the resurrection? I know you can reference where the body will be perfected at the resurrection. Where's the Scripture stating that both body and soul are perfected at the resurrection?


You are speaking as if we are redeemed in steps.

We are transformed into His image in steps . . .

The spirit is already perfected, as I have referenced for you with Scripture . . .

The mind, will and emotions (soul) are being renewed and transformed daily as I have shown you with Scripture . . .

The body will be transformed at the Second Coming of our Lord Jesus Christ as has been shown with Scripture . . .


First our spirit, then our soul, and then our body. For those of us who receive Christ on our death beds, where is the redeeming process of the soul in that case?

At death the soul is already coming face to face with that which is perfect. It is receiving fully and is knowing just as it is also known. Being transformed daily isn't just so we can go to heaven. The benefit of being transformed daily is reaped today. However, we will not know fully until we put off the flesh and rid ourselves of all hinderance.


The step for that is skipped? Whether one lives out his life as a believer and another becomes a believer on his death bed, their souls are equally redeemed upon death.

Sanctification of the mind, will and emotions is something that brings blessing now . . . not just after we die. However, when we do die we have received the prize of that upward call. We are completed an go to be with Him.


To say that we will be like Him and in His image upon our death has still not been proven by Scripture. Scripture does say that we will be like Him WHEN He appears at His coming…

What is being transformed in the verses I have given you, and what is the purpose of it being transformed?


“…it has not appeared as yet what we will be. We know that when He appears, we will be like Him…” (1 John 3:2).

Talking about us receiving a glorified body like Him . . .

Doesn't mean that the soul and the spirit aren't like Him prior . . .


God said He would make man in His image and then He formed man of dust from the ground breathed into his nostrils the breath of life and man became a living being in the image of God. Seems fairly straight forward. God didn’t create a spirit and say he was in His image. God didn’t create a lifeless body and say he was in His image.

It's also straight forward that after Adam sinned he was still formed from the dust of the ground, he still had the breath of life in him and he was still a living being. So, according to your theory he should still be in the image of God. However, the Word declares that after the fall man was no longer in the image of God. Therefore, being made from the dust of ground, having the breath of life and being a living person must not be what makes us in His image. If that were the case then mankind still would have been in God's image even after the fall.


That’s not true. As you pointed out, we are now in the image of Adam after he sinned.

But you said that the qualifications for being in His image is being formed from the dust of the ground, having the breath of life and being a living person just as Genesis 2:7 states. Do we not still meet those qualifications? Why then do you suppose that the Word declares that we are not in His image even though we meet these qualifications you have given?


Yes, the image would have to be free from inequity. The image is not a soul by itself. The sin-free image is body, soul, and spirit.

So when God made Adam He made him as a body, soul and spirt that was without sin. It seems that the only thing that changed about that was that iniquity was brought into the equation. So, it is the iniquity that takes us out of His image. What are we without the iniquity? We are perfect and holy. Therefore, when we are born again we are perfected in spirit again and made holy. That is His image. When we are face to face with Him upon our death . . . we will know just as we also are known, which also means that we will no longer be in part. We will be perfected there as well. Then at His Second Coming all enemies of the Lord Jesus Christ will be put under His feat and death will be defeated giving us the glorified and perfected bodies that we hope for . . .


I disagree. He has redeemed our soul but our soul is not in His image.

But our spirit is perfect and holy. How can the spirit be perfect and holy (in His image) and the rest is not according to your theory? According to your theory we cannot just be in His image with just our spirit or soul. According to your theory we are not perfect and in His image until the resurrection. The Scriptures do not support this from everything I can see.


His image is perfect body, soul, and spirit (triune being) made in the image of our triune God.

So then if the only qualification of being in His image is having a body, soul and spirit then you would be proclaiming that we are already in His image. However, the Scriptures state that we currently are not.

LookingUp
Dec 6th 2008, 04:26 AM
I have already referenced Scripture for you that says we are complete and perfect in spirit. So yes, in spirit we are exactly how He wants us to beI’m not talking about in spirit.


There are several places throughout the Word that declares that nothing sinful or wicked will enter His kingdom. I won't go referencing those for you because they are very easy to find. Just do a search at biblegateway.com . . . True. But I thought you said nothing corrupt can be in His presence. If that were true, the wicked wouldn't be able to stand before Him in judgment!


Where is the Scripture that declares that the Holy Spirit is our guarantee of both the body and soul being perfected at the resurrection? I know you can reference where the body will be perfected at the resurrection. Where's the Scripture stating that both body and soul are perfected at the resurrection?...Where’s the Scripture that states that the soul is perfected at death? That still has not been shown. We groan and are burdened and cry out for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies.

We will not fully know in the way you describe until we put on immortality at the resurrection. That is what Paul wrote about. That is what he longed for…the moment in time he clothed himself with immortality and was no longer naked. Paul is present with the Lord but he has not put on immortality.

The whole creation groans for and awaits with longing (Rom. 8) the redemption of the earth. The revealing of the sons of God at the coming of Christ.

If we are perfected at death, what’s the big deal with this great hope we have? If we're already perfected, what's to look forward to with our hope of redemption? Sorry, I am not getting you at all.

Vertical, I don’t think we’ll see eye to eye on this subject. Thanks for the discussion. It has been helpful in many ways. God bless you.

VerticalReality
Dec 6th 2008, 05:21 AM
I’m not talking about in spirit.

Okay, but what you stated is that we are not complete at any time before the resurrection. However, that is not true. In the spirit, which is us, we are complete and perfect in Him right now.


True. But I thought you said nothing corrupt can be in His presence. If that were true, the wicked wouldn't be able to stand before Him in judgment!

I should have been more clear. I'm speaking of entering His kingdom.


Where’s the Scripture that states that the soul is perfected at death? That still has not been shown. We groan and are burdened and cry out for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies.

I'm giving it to you.

1 Peter 5:10-11
But may the God of all grace, who called us to His eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after you have suffered a while, perfect, establish, strengthen, and settle you. To Him be the glory and the dominion forever and ever. Amen.

What is it that our Lord is perfecting? It's not the spirit, and it's not the body. The spirit is already perfected and the body hasn't even begun to be perfected. However, the soul is being perfected. The Scripture that says that when it will be perfected happens to be the very one that started this conversation in 1 Corinthains 13. If we are no longer in part when that which is perfect has come then we are fully complete and perfect. 1 Corinthians 13 doesn't speak of the resurrection at all. It is talking about our perfection and our progression from knowing in part to knowing fully. We know that it's not our spirit that knows in part. Our spirit is complete in Him. Therefore, it has to be speaking of our soul.


We will not fully know in the way you describe until we put on immortality at the resurrection. That is what Paul wrote about. That is what he longed for…the moment in time he clothed himself with immortality and was no longer naked. Paul is present with the Lord but he has not put on immortality.

But in the context of 1 Corinthians 13 he definitely does know fully. He is currently not in need of prophecy, tongues or partial knowledge. He has full knowledge right now with the Lord.


If we are perfected at death, what’s the big deal with this great hope we have? If we're already perfected, what's to look forward to with our hope of redemption? Sorry, I am not getting you at all.

The same argument you're presenting could be said about the spirit as well. We are perfect in spirit now also. So, according to your viewpoint here, what's the point of the resurrection or the perfection of our body and soul if we are already perfect in spirit? However, we know from Scripture that our spirit is indeed perfect. So, what's so hard to fathom about the concept of our soul also being perfected when we see face to face and know as we also are known? Just because the body hasn't been perfected yet doesn't mean that the soul and the spirit can't be. The spirit already is now, so that should prove to you that some can be perfect and not all.


Vertical, I don’t think we’ll see eye to eye on this subject. Thanks for the discussion. It has been helpful in many ways. God bless you.

Thank you for the discussion as well. I think our debate here proves that we all only know in part, but one day we will know fully . . . ;)

divaD
Dec 6th 2008, 05:19 PM
I don't hold the belief that the gifts are active until Jesus Christ returns. I stated they are active for us until we are completed
and perfected. When we are perfected we will no longer need anything in part. We will know fully.


Either you are implying that we would become completed and perfected before Christ's return, or after Christ's return, but not at Christ's return, this is assuming that being completed and perfected hold the same meanings as you are suggesting.


When we are perfected we will no longer need anything in part. We will know fully.

Again, this is looking at this from your perspective only. If this occurs before Christ returns, then how do you come to that conclusion?

If this occurs sometime after Christ's return, but not upon Christ's return, then how do you come to that conclusion?

Also, I'm certain that you believe the finished Word of God, the Bible, to be perfect/complete, right? Or do you? If you do, then why don't you believe that it is the perfect that is being spoken of in 1 Cor ch 13? If they only knew in part, and understood in part, it just seems obvious to me that something wasn't yet complete. Hmmm...I wonder what that could have been? I wonder if they had access to the complete Word of God during that time, both the OT and NT? I beleve that they did have access to the OT, and possibly some of the NT. But what about the completed NT? Not that I'm aware of. This would explain why they only knew in part. They only had part of the finished Bible, but not all of it. This is why some of the gifts were necessary until God's Word was completed.

After God's Word was complete, there would be no more use for any new prophecies, nor any new revelations not already contained within Scriptures. This would be adding to the Word of God, would it not?. And if not, why not? Everything that God wants us to know, it is all contained in His perfect/completed Word, the Bible. Either by faith we believe what is written, or we go looking for other ways to prove to ourselves and to others that we are saved, such as speaking in tongues. Afterall, don't most say this is proof of the Baptism of the Holy Spirit? Where is the faith in that? That is based upon a sign, and not upon faith. The Bible clearly tells us that by one Spirit we are all baptized into one body. By faith, I believe that. I don't need any outward signs to verify that fact, such as speaking in tongues.

True, not one single person understands every single Scripture from Genesis to Revelation. But that's not the point. Until there was Genesis thru Revelation complete, one could only know things in part, because the entire Bible was not complete, thus the need for the gift of prophecy, and the gift of knowledge, since they only knew things in part.


I think we also need to look at perfect from the perspective of becoming mature. When early Christians were given the gift of tongues, were all of them matured Christians? I would say no. Many of them were new in the faith, yet they were given these gifts in order to mature in their faith. And once maturity has come about, childish things such as tongues, prophecies, etc would be done away with. We have to look at this from the perspective of the church as a whole. We also have to define childish as in it's infancy/beginning early stages before the entire Bible was complete.

Also, in context. I believe that Paul is clearly speaking of the church age. What does he state in verse 13?

1 Corinthians 13:13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

We're already told that charity endureth forever. But what about faith and hope? Wouldn't these be concluded upon Christ's return when the dead that are in Him are resurrected, and those that remain are caught up together with them in the clouds? This would have to mean that verse 8 concludes before Christ returns, keeping in mind that Paul is referring to the church age.

Let's take revelation for instance. Anyone claiming to be given new revelation from God, in which is not found anywhere in Scripture, these are clearly not having this revealed by God, but by some other spirit. The same thing can be said about prophecy. With this in mind, please explain what would be the point of the gift of prophecy today? There are no new prophecies. Any new prophecy would be adding to the Word of God, and would not be of God. Show me how it wouldn't be.

Also, you have to read and understand 1 Cor 13 from their perspective at that time. That's important, because there is also historical context to consider here.

LookingUp
Dec 6th 2008, 06:41 PM
Okay, but what you stated is that we are not complete at any time before the resurrection. However, that is not true. In the spirit, which is us, we are complete and perfect in Him right now.I think part of the difficulty we’ve been having is in relation to what we consider the definition of complete and the definition of perfect. I’m not asking for clarification, but I just wanted to point that out.

I wanted to point out the following once more…

“We know that when He appears, we will be like Him, because we will see Him just as He is” (1 John 3:2)

John claims that we will be like Him WHEN He appears (at His coming) and not before He appears (at our death).

“For I am confident of this very thing, that he who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus” (Phil. 1:6).

Paul claims that God will continue to perfect the good work in us UNTIL the day of Christ Jesus. That means that this process of perfecting the good work continues UNTIL the day of Christ Jesus, not UNTIL the day you die. Apparently, the perfection of the soul continues all the way up UNTIL the day of Christ Jesus according to Paul.


Thank you for the discussion as well. I think our debate here proves that we all only know in part, but one day we will know fully . . . But some know more fully than others. Why? Because all we need to know about God is contained in the completed Scriptures and some look intently into it and some do not. Is that all there IS to know about God? Of course not. But it is sufficient and with it, we may become equipped for every good work (2 Tim. 16), not just some, but EVERY good work.

I’ll let you focus on DivaD’s questions. I’ll stick around and read the posts.

God bless!

VerticalReality
Dec 7th 2008, 01:06 AM
Also, I'm certain that you believe the finished Word of God, the Bible, to be perfect/complete, right?

I believe it is without error. By "complete" I'm not sure what you're meaning. If you mean that by complete we can know everything about God just by reading the bible then I would say no . . . it's not complete. We don't know or have a full knowledge of God just by reading the bible.


If you do, then why don't you believe that it is the perfect that is being spoken of in 1 Cor ch 13?

I have already pointed out in this thread why it is impossible. Whether the bible is perfect or not really doesn't matter as far as this is concerned. Paul's comments prove that it cannot be the bible.


If they only knew in part, and understood in part, it just seems obvious to me that something wasn't yet complete.

Right . . . so ask you . . .

Do you know in part and understand in part . . . or do you claim that you have an absolutely complete and perfect knowledge of everything?

If the bible is "that which is perfect" why don't you know fully? Paul proclaimed that the "that which is perfect" would allow us to know completely. Unless you know all things and understand absolutely perfectly then the bible cannot be "that which is perfect" that Paul speaks of in 1 Corinthians 13.


Hmmm...I wonder what that could have been? I wonder if they had access to the complete Word of God during that time, both the OT and NT? I beleve that they did have access to the OT, and possibly some of the NT. But what about the completed NT? Not that I'm aware of. This would explain why they only knew in part. They only had part of the finished Bible, but not all of it. This is why some of the gifts were necessary until God's Word was completed.


Paul never did have the completed canonized bible. However, he did declare that he would see "that which is perfect". Since Paul was long gone before the bible was ever completed then this couldn't have been what he declared that he would see.


After God's Word was complete, there would be no more use for any new prophecies, nor any new revelations not already contained within Scriptures.

Really? You know God's will for every single aspect of your life down to the minute detail? If a new church comes to me tomorrow and asks me to pastor their church instead of the one I'm currently at, what bible verses would you point me to that would declare whether this is or is not God's will for me? What bible verse do you know that says, "Yes, it is My will that you go pastor that church . . . "?


This would be adding to the Word of God, would it not?. And if not, why not?

Because I'm not taking a pen and writing anything to add to it . . .

Folks go way overboard with this, "There is no revelation outside of the bible . . . " stuff.

What does 2 Timothy 3:16-17 say about the Word of God? Let's see . . .

2 Timothy 3:16-17
All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.

This declares that for us the Word of God is good for doctrine, reproof, correction, and for instruction in righteousness, so that we may be complete and thoroughly equipped for every good work.

However, we still require revelation from God that is not in the bible for specific direction in our lives. Those who do not seek God for this specific direction and believe Him to give it will find themselves going headlong into things in the flesh . . .

God will reveal what's to come for us and what's His will if we allow Him . . .

John 16:12-15
“I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come. He will glorify Me, for He will take of what is Mine and declare it to you. All things that the Father has are Mine. Therefore I said that He will take of Mine and declare it to you.

Folks that take on this "There's no revelation outside the bible" attitude are really walking a dangerous path, IMO. Our Lord gives specific direction about specific situations. If you aren't seeking Him for this specific direction then you are going to be going into things on your own accord.


Everything that God wants us to know, it is all contained in His perfect/completed Word, the Bible.

So again, where can I find the Scripture where our Lord says to me, "Yes, you need to go pastor that church . . . "?


True, not one single person understands every single Scripture from Genesis to Revelation. But that's not the point. Until there was Genesis thru Revelation complete, one could only know things in part, because the entire Bible was not complete, thus the need for the gift of prophecy, and the gift of knowledge, since they only knew things in part.

But you just admitted with the first sentence there that we still do not know fully. Paul declared that when "that which is perfect" has come we would know fully. Therefore, the fact that we do not proves that the bible is not what Paul was talking about in 1 Corinthians 13.


I think we also need to look at perfect from the perspective of becoming mature. When early Christians were given the gift of tongues, were all of them matured Christians? I would say no. Many of them were new in the faith, yet they were given these gifts in order to mature in their faith. And once maturity has come about, childish things such as tongues, prophecies, etc would be done away with. We have to look at this from the perspective of the church as a whole. We also have to define childish as in it's infancy/beginning early stages before the entire Bible was complete.

Do you believe that Paul was immature in the faith when he penned 1 Corinthians by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit? Why do you suppose that Paul declared in chapter 14 that he spoke in tongues more than them all if such a gift was simply for the immature believer until they came to a more mature knowledge of the faith?


We're already told that charity endureth forever. But what about faith and hope? Wouldn't these be concluded upon Christ's return when the dead that are in Him are resurrected, and those that remain are caught up together with them in the clouds? This would have to mean that verse 8 concludes before Christ returns, keeping in mind that Paul is referring to the church age.

Why wouldn't faith and hope carry on? Are we not going to have faith in our Lord when the new heaven and earth arrive? The definition of hope is basically faith for something that hasn't happened yet. So yes, hope will carry on as well. Faith is something we believe God for now . . . hope is something we believe God for in the future . . .

For example I have faith that Jesus Christ has forgiven me of my sins. That is a present reality right now. However, I have hope of a resurrection. This means that I have faith for something that hasn't happened yet. Many folks have a bad definition of hope. They will say things like, "Well, I don't know but I hope that will happen." Really all that's just doubt. However, I don't just think the resurrection will happen. I know it will. When I say that I have hope in the resurrection, I'm declaring what I know for a fact will happen when my Lord returns. Likewise, when my Lord returns and I'm dwelling with Him forever, I have hope that He will take care of my every need from the time I'm there for eternity. So yes, faith, hope and love will all be very much alive and well for eternity.


Let's take revelation for instance. Anyone claiming to be given new revelation from God, in which is not found anywhere in Scripture, these are clearly not having this revealed by God, but by some other spirit.

Honestly, such declarations really do not surprise me. The Pharisees proclaimed Jesus was doing things and saying things by another spirit also. However, that said a lot more about the Pharisees than it did about Jesus.


The same thing can be said about prophecy. With this in mind, please explain what would be the point of the gift of prophecy today? There are no new prophecies. Any new prophecy would be adding to the Word of God, and would not be of God. Show me how it wouldn't be.

When someone prophecies in the Word what are they doing? For example, Jonah prophecied to the folks in Nineveh. What did he prophecy to them, and how would you describe such a prophecy?

Veretax
Dec 7th 2008, 01:48 PM
[/font][/color]

Do you really believe that mankind has a full understanding of God's word?
[font=Verdana][color=black]

Then why doesn't it make everyone that reads it perfect? 1 Corinthians 13 declares that when that which is perfect has come then we will know fully. However, it is very clear that nobody knows fully.

That's a fair question. It is also a wholly general statement. Why is scripture given? Is not that shown from 2 Tim 3:16-17

2 Timothy 3 Read This Chapter

3:16All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,

3:17that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.

So the question is whether understanding comes from the scripture itself, or from some other means. I believe we are to study line by line, precept by precept, and comparing scripture with the entire bible. I don't believe the the majority of scripture can be understood without the aid of the Holy Spirit. I know before I was saved I knew passaged scholastically, but it was not profitable because I had not faith at the time, when I became saved, when I believed on Christ, my life changed, and has continued to change as I've grown and learned more from studying scripture, and how many times do I find a more complete meaning wheN I review a passage I have studied before. It happens often.

So without the SPirit, I'd say no mankind as a whole cannot have an understanding of God's word, not a Full one. The Gospel is simple enough that man can understand, but beyond that no. So first a person must be saved to be able to have the Spirit within reveal the understanding.

However, what I am speaking of, what I was referring to was the completion of God's revelation of Scripture. That which is Perfect. That we as men can't understand the bible without God's Spirit, to me doesn't change the fact that Scripture has been completed. Now we are disagreeing on whether that which is perfect refers to this completion of Scripture (Revelation from God) or something else. I already said I'd give some time to think about it in the context of an individual believer, I haven't completed that thought process yet, so I'll have to get back to you on that poin.




Again, I have to say that I am shocked by your replies !

Nothing I stated is my interpretation ! I Corinthians chapter 14 states as clearly as the nose on your face, that speaking in tongues is speaking mysteries unto God.


Okay before I go further I feel I must ask for you guys to forgive me. It was never my intent to hurt, shock, or in any way hurt one who is a fellow believer and brother/sister in Christ. I knew when The conversation came to that passage in 1 Cor 14 that it was highly debated, that not everyone agrees. This is not an argument that we will come to a final agreement on this forum. However, I was lead in this direction, because i was curious what you my brothers in CHrist thought on the matter. I find that seeing other peoples points of view can help confirm or correct things you may believe, sometimes it changes nothing, other times it does. So let us remember that when we discuss something like this, the Goal should be trying to find out what God is saying through the writer, not necessarily what I or another believe. What we believer should be what God says, (And I'm not saying this as an admonition or anyting of the sort.)



And I "never" stated that speaking in tongues is something that saves ! And if you have an issue with another poster, please by all means deal with that poster and not me !


I'm not sure to who I saw say this. This thread has gone so long now that one post has bled into another in my memory, and I can't remember to whom I'm replying. If as you say you don't believe that speaking in Tongues is necessary to be saved, then we are fine and I am truly sorry if you thought that was aimed at you.



Next, I am not mocking you, please get that straight. I am merely stating that I am shocked by your respones. Christians live by faith, and not by sight. From reading your replies, I see more sight than faith. You make comments off the wall that are not biblically related .

My point is this. If the Word says it, then that settles it. Especially if it is written unto us - Christians - The Church.

Where we have a problem in these discussions, is this. I believe what is written. While you are giving side step replies of why you do not believe. Now , I am not saying that you are not a believer. What I am saying , is that what you read in the Word of God, that which is written unto the Church, you do not seem to want to believe it. You give excuses as to why you can not believe, or should not believe what is written. You say that it has ceased or that it is not needed, and then give an excuse as to why. This is what I do not understand, and it shocks me.

I do not mean to make you upset, or get into any type of argument. All I am trying to do, is trying to understand why you believe the way that you do. I know that the Church is far from being in unity, and it is no wonder as to why. I thought our conversations might bring us closer to what the scriptures actually do say, instead of adding to them or taking away from them, thus making the scriptures nothing more than being speculative conversation. What good is speculating about what scripture tells us ? Especially when we can go back and check the scriptures and get clarification on exactly what it does say ! ?

You don't see me off this Forum, so you don't know my faith, or my walk. Nor can I see yours. So yeah we need to be careful about making decisions about people when we don't fully know them. I think we could agree on that point. We all come to the bible from different perspectives. We are supposed to read the scripture as is, and each of us is guilty at times of reading into passages. Even I catch myself at times doing this. However, Just because we disagree on the meaning of one or more passages, does not mean, that either of us does not believe Scripture. I certainly don't believe that about you or anyone on this forum. I am a biblicist. I want to know what the bible says, if what I say disagrees with what you currently believe, then it disagrees, but that does not necessarily mean that you or I are correct, we could both be wrong. I've never looked at what I said as speculation either.

Ultimately, there's a reason why there is such dispute about these passages in 1 Corinthians. none of us is perfect in our understanding, the reason I came to this forum, was a desire to discuss these things in an environment with other believers, for I don't always have that opportunity here locally. I miss these kinds of discussions that I had once when I was in College in a Bible Fellowship so. Anyhow. I am not sure what more I will say in this thread for the only thing I come to as a final conclusion in this passage is that at some point I'll want to study it again. That's the desire I have in me. Unfortunately, right now I feel the Lord leading me back into the OT for study, so it may be a while before I return to this study of Spiritual Gifts.




If prophecy became dormant according to 1 Cor, then why does Paul say in 1 Cor 14:1, eagerly desire spritual gifts, especially the gift of propohecy.

(1 Cor 14:1 NIV) Follow the way of love and eagerly desire spiritual gifts, especially the gift of prophecy.


Paul also writes to the Romans,

(Rom 12:6 NIV) We have different gifts, according to the grace given us. If a man's gift is prophesying, let him use it in proportion to his faith.


Chad


This is another place where I feel my knowledge and understanding is perhaps lacking. For as I understand it there are different Kinds of Prophecy. Right now at home I don't have access to the interlinear greek (the computer is just too slow to install it). Paul I believe uses the thought of prophecy indescription of almost everything that edifies the body, but when I look at this passage in 14:1 (based on memory of the words I looked up in the interlinear that last time that Id id.) It is not generaly prophesy that I think he is talking about. I believe he's referring to Prophesy as being divine revelation from God (as in new revelation), not extracting that from current context of scripture.

Would you agree or disagree that prophecy in the NT is a broad term?



As for your other post Chad, about whether the Holy Spirit changes in how it works through the gifts. I don't have an answer. I can't think of anything in the affirmative or negative to imply that it would.





I'm going to take off from this thread for a while, I know I need to study a bit more, and I'm not prepared right now to devote the time to it, when I feel the Lord in my devotions wants me to review some gaps in my OT understanding. So I wish you all well in this discussion.

Mysteryman
Dec 7th 2008, 03:25 PM
Veretax

I want you to know that coming to a site like this to discuss the Word of God is a great opportunity to have discussion that you may not have access to anywhere else. So from that perspective, I relish this great opportunity. I would want to believe that others would see this opportunity as I do.

In the Unity of the Spirit we are to all think the same thoughts. Coming into the Unity of The Spirit is a task that most people will not endure.

The reason I say endure, is because of all the differences that comes about from any subject that is within the Word of God.

For instance, some still hold that they in some way still need to do a communion service and that God is telling them that a communion service is in some way worshipping God. I do not believe this to be true. That is because the bread that Jesus Christ talked about is now 'us'. We now are the bread, which is the body of Christ. And we no longer take part, but now "partake". Taking part is taking in, and partaking is giving out. And of course chapters 12 and 13 and 14 deal with this specifically.

The same holds true with the nine manifestations of the Spirit. These are all spiritual. Anything spiritual is something that is not "seen" with our physical eyes. Nor with our physical ears. Hence, speaking in tongues is a language unknown to me, the one speaking in tongues. It is a language that is of men or of angels. If my tongue is of angels, no one here on earth knows that language.

Gifts of healing works the same way. Healing is not a power we possess. It is however a power of God, that God who does the healing works through us by way of revelation.

Word of knowledge and word of wisdom works also in the same way. Knowledge or wisdom unknown to me, by revealed unto me by God when this knowledge or wisdom is needed.

You are correct, I do not know you. The only information I have is what you write. Which is enough for one to at the very least know where you are at in your spiritual walk. This is why some only drink the milk of the Word and are unskilled in the scriptures. While others eat the meat of the Word and are skilled in the scriptures. But there are also those who eat the strong meat of the Word who will be able to help both those who drink the milk of the Word and those who eat the meat of the Word where they lack in knowledge.

In Ephesians it tells us to grow unto a holy temple in the Lord. < This is dealing with "knowledge" and "understanding". Some people do not wish to grow spiritually and it is evidenced by the fact that they respond in such a manner that shows they are content to reamin as they are. This is what I consider sad. It is sad that someone does not want to grow spiritually. Also, we are to put on the "whole" armour of God , that we may be able to stand against the whiles of the devil. Without the "whole" armour of God, we then by shear logic will not be able to stand against the whiles of the devil. And this is something that seems very sad when I hear that someone does not want to grow spiritually so that they can stand against the whiles of the devil.

God Bless you

Veretax
Dec 8th 2008, 01:10 PM
The same holds true with the nine manifestations of the Spirit. These are all spiritual. Anything spiritual is something that is not "seen" with our physical eyes. Nor with our physical ears. Hence, speaking in tongues is a language unknown to me, the one speaking in tongues. It is a language that is of men or of angels. If my tongue is of angels, no one here on earth knows that language.

Gifts of healing works the same way. Healing is not a power we possess. It is however a power of God, that God who does the healing works through us by way of revelation.

Word of knowledge and word of wisdom works also in the same way. Knowledge or wisdom unknown to me, by revealed unto me by God when this knowledge or wisdom is needed.

You are correct, I do not know you. The only information I have is what you write. Which is enough for one to at the very least know where you are at in your spiritual walk. This is why some only drink the milk of the Word and are unskilled in the scriptures. While others eat the meat of the Word and are skilled in the scriptures. But there are also those who eat the strong meat of the Word who will be able to help both those who drink the milk of the Word and those who eat the meat of the Word where they lack in knowledge.

In Ephesians it tells us to grow unto a holy temple in the Lord. < This is dealing with "knowledge" and "understanding". Some people do not wish to grow spiritually and it is evidenced by the fact that they respond in such a manner that shows they are content to reamin as they are. This is what I consider sad. It is sad that someone does not want to grow spiritually. Also, we are to put on the "whole" armour of God , that we may be able to stand against the whiles of the devil. Without the "whole" armour of God, we then by shear logic will not be able to stand against the whiles of the devil. And this is something that seems very sad when I hear that someone does not want to grow spiritually so that they can stand against the whiles of the devil.

God Bless you

Thanks for the post Mysteryman. I believe Unity has to be based on Truth not just on cushyness so to speak, but I agree with what you have said. I've been saved for eighteen years, but the first six I didn't treat the bible with the respect it was due. I treated it like I did my Boy Scout Handbook, only looking when i had specific questions, otherwise reading while in church.

I don't know why I did that after I was saved. Maybe it had something to do with the version of the bible I was using, but the NIV was so boring to read. When I was gifted a New Geneva Study Bible (NKJV version) before college, I began to really dig into the word, and Have dug as deeply as possible ever sense. So no, I am by no means complete in my understanding of all of scripture yet. I know that compared to many my age, that my understanding is perhaps greater, (I don't say that as if boasting, I got the comment a lot from my pastor who apparently marveled at my understanding), but I know I still have a lot to learn, and will continue to learn till the day I pass from this earth. However, I disagree with you on some of these things, that does not mean that we can't fellowship together and enjoy the discussion as the Lord draws each of us closer to him in understanding.

(Its Ironic that you quote the Panoply verse...)

Like I said though, I've probably studied through Corinthians 4 times in my life. The first was a cursory read through, the second, looking to compare what was written to what a preacher said. Its been a few years since I have done that, so its not as fresh in my mind as other passages either. Anyhow. I appreciate your post.

God Bless.

Mysteryman
Dec 8th 2008, 03:57 PM
Thanks for the post Mysteryman. I believe Unity has to be based on Truth not just on cushyness so to speak, but I agree with what you have said. I've been saved for eighteen years, but the first six I didn't treat the bible with the respect it was due. I treated it like I did my Boy Scout Handbook, only looking when i had specific questions, otherwise reading while in church.

I don't know why I did that after I was saved. Maybe it had something to do with the version of the bible I was using, but the NIV was so boring to read. When I was gifted a New Geneva Study Bible (NKJV version) before college, I began to really dig into the word, and Have dug as deeply as possible ever sense. So no, I am by no means complete in my understanding of all of scripture yet. I know that compared to many my age, that my understanding is perhaps greater, (I don't say that as if boasting, I got the comment a lot from my pastor who apparently marveled at my understanding), but I know I still have a lot to learn, and will continue to learn till the day I pass from this earth. However, I disagree with you on some of these things, that does not mean that we can't fellowship together and enjoy the discussion as the Lord draws each of us closer to him in understanding.

(Its Ironic that you quote the Panoply verse...)

Like I said though, I've probably studied through Corinthians 4 times in my life. The first was a cursory read through, the second, looking to compare what was written to what a preacher said. Its been a few years since I have done that, so its not as fresh in my mind as other passages either. Anyhow. I appreciate your post.

God Bless.
Thanks for your reply.

I know that throughout my life, I have sought out the truth. That of course does not mean that I have the whole truth. But there were many times within my life that I need to know something from the scriptures and not just to question my faith, but to do what the scriptures tells us to do. To check the scriptures to see whether those things are true or not.

I read John 4:24 and noticed that we are to worship God in spirit and in truth. And if my faith does come into question, then I need to be honest within myself to come to a knowledge of the truth, and not allow my past faith to dictate to me, my reasoning. Throughout my life, I have changed my faith about certain beliefs that I help to be true.

Call me a rebell, or whatever, but when I was younger I used to belong to a certain denomination. Then left and became part of a bible ministry for about 14 years. Then left them because I notice certain contradictions within their own teachings. These contradictions bother me tremendously within my being (or spirit). But prior to knowing the contradictions that I was being taught, I didn't question very much. I always thought that these people know much more than I will ever know, so I didn't question .

However, over a certain amount of time, I notice that my heart (spirit in me) was stiring. So I would search out that which was bothering me in my mind (spirit in me). I would spend hours upon hours studying the Word of God in order to come to the right conclusion that would put my heart (spirit in me) at peace with what I now believe , verses what I used to believe.

This is why I encourage people to discuss on forums like this one, because someone might have studied something I never looked at before, or considered. That possibility of a certain view that I might have overlooked something within my search of the truth.

I will be honest here. I see a lot of people that post here that are without a doubt babes in the Word. I notice this because of the topics that they discuss and the manner in which they discuss them. In fact it amazes me that most are not searching for truth. They are just enjoying a type of conversation that pleases them.

I encourage you as well as anyone else the continue to hunger for the truth.

God Bless you and your family

Veretax
Dec 8th 2008, 07:12 PM
Thanks for your reply.

I know that throughout my life, I have sought out the truth. That of course does not mean that I have the whole truth. But there were many times within my life that I need to know something from the scriptures and not just to question my faith, but to do what the scriptures tells us to do. To check the scriptures to see whether those things are true or not.

I read John 4:24 and noticed that we are to worship God in spirit and in truth. And if my faith does come into question, then I need to be honest within myself to come to a knowledge of the truth, and not allow my past faith to dictate to me, my reasoning. Throughout my life, I have changed my faith about certain beliefs that I help to be true.

Call me a rebell, or whatever, but when I was younger I used to belong to a certain denomination. Then left and became part of a bible ministry for about 14 years. Then left them because I notice certain contradictions within their own teachings. These contradictions bother me tremendously within my being (or spirit). But prior to knowing the contradictions that I was being taught, I didn't question very much. I always thought that these people know much more than I will ever know, so I didn't question .

However, over a certain amount of time, I notice that my heart (spirit in me) was stiring. So I would search out that which was bothering me in my mind (spirit in me). I would spend hours upon hours studying the Word of God in order to come to the right conclusion that would put my heart (spirit in me) at peace with what I now believe , verses what I used to believe.

This is why I encourage people to discuss on forums like this one, because someone might have studied something I never looked at before, or considered. That possibility of a certain view that I might have overlooked something within my search of the truth.

I will be honest here. I see a lot of people that post here that are without a doubt babes in the Word. I notice this because of the topics that they discuss and the manner in which they discuss them. In fact it amazes me that most are not searching for truth. They are just enjoying a type of conversation that pleases them.

I encourage you as well as anyone else the continue to hunger for the truth.

God Bless you and your family


All true. I had a very similar experience. Was raised in a particular denomination and took certain things with faith after being saved. It wasn't till I got to college and got hooked on the Word that the Lord really began to show me some of the error in what I accepted. Yes even some major doctrines I held beliefs on have changed. So that's not surprising.

In general i find that if I am wrong on something when it comes to study, its always my fault. Either a misinterpretation, or there result of rushing through one part of scripture to another. That's why I've resolved recently to try and pick through the scripture at the pace at which I get the most out of that section, and not worry about any time tables or the perceived capability of my "speed reading mind". I just finished a 6 month study on the book of james. (maybe longer even.) Six months! I never would have forecast I would get that much out of a 5 or 6 chapter epistle, but every single verse is so packed with meaning these days, that it can take more than 30 minutes to get through five or six verses sometimes. The Lord has blessed me in this regard, and some day I hope to be able to share what I've learned with others here locally.


So on this point at least we agree.

Mysteryman
Dec 8th 2008, 09:37 PM
All true. I had a very similar experience. Was raised in a particular denomination and took certain things with faith after being saved. It wasn't till I got to college and got hooked on the Word that the Lord really began to show me some of the error in what I accepted. Yes even some major doctrines I held beliefs on have changed. So that's not surprising.

In general i find that if I am wrong on something when it comes to study, its always my fault. Either a misinterpretation, or there result of rushing through one part of scripture to another. That's why I've resolved recently to try and pick through the scripture at the pace at which I get the most out of that section, and not worry about any time tables or the perceived capability of my "speed reading mind". I just finished a 6 month study on the book of james. (maybe longer even.) Six months! I never would have forecast I would get that much out of a 5 or 6 chapter epistle, but every single verse is so packed with meaning these days, that it can take more than 30 minutes to get through five or six verses sometimes. The Lord has blessed me in this regard, and some day I hope to be able to share what I've learned with others here locally.


So on this point at least we agree.
Thank you for your honesty. Honesty is a rare commodity these days !

IN Christ - M M

Bob Carabbio
Dec 9th 2008, 06:20 AM
According to the Bible the "gifts" are given BY the Holy Spirit to Christians for the edification, and building up of the Body of Christ.

Christians, however, don't POSSESS any gifts - they're are given as they're needed when they're needed.

Any Christian can potentially be used in any Gift, or any combinations of gifts as the Holy Spirit wills.

PERSONALLY, when I'm to manifest a Gift, There'll be a "Rising sensation" - like an excitement (that I recognize as the "burdening" of the Holy Spirit). Along with the "Burden" will be the Strong and specific knowledge of what I'm supposed to do, and WHEN I do it - the "burden" will Dissolve, and things will return to normal.

This seems to be reasonably "typical" among Christians.

When the "burden" passes, then the person has NO gift again.

Some folks are used with regularity in one or more Gifts. "Word of Knowledge" (Where the minister KNOWS what the physical condition to be healed is), and "Healings" seem to often work together in the same person.

Veretax
Dec 9th 2008, 11:30 PM
I am trying to come up with a suitable response, but the word....are not there....

However, I caution my brothers, for the pagans, even those of the Greek and Roman Temples of Pauls day also spoke in tongues. It is written that the priests and priestesses would go into some sort of trance, and begin to speak in tongues. THe people of the day believed when they did that they were somehow speaking the language of the gods or communing with them. Make no mistake though, the gift of tongues in the bible, the one we see at Pentecost and paul speaking of in 1 Corinthians, is intended to edify the entire body, not an individual. If anything draws you to something that is self seeking, I'd be careful to test the spirits, because Christ calls us to serve, not to be served.

VerticalReality
Dec 10th 2008, 03:52 AM
This thread has been cleaned up a good bit. Please, let us begin getting serious about addressing the topic at hand.