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bikelite
Dec 3rd 2008, 05:32 PM
To show that there is plenty of scriptural support for the rapture of the church coming before the seven year tribulation. The book of revelation in chapter 4, 5 have some very enlightening verses in them as it concerns the rapture of the church. Revelation chapter 3 closes out the church age. Then to start chapter 4 it says after this or after the church age. I looked and behold a door open in heaven and the first voice which I heardwas as it were of a trumpet talking with me, which said come up hither and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter. So after the church age, it is John who sees what will happen after the church is caught up. In Rev 4;1 John the Beloved, sees a DOOR opened in Heaven. In the Gospel of John 10:1 Jesus talks about the Door into the Sheepfold..then inverse 9, Jesus says, He is the Door, and in verse 11, Jesus says he is the Good Shepherd. It is interesting that it is the same Greek word for, Door, (yura thura) that is used in Rev 4:1 as John used for the Door into the sheepfold in John 10:1. John is caught up through the Door into the Sheepfold, and John sees everything as a Type fo the church in Chapter 4. In John 10:3 Jesus says..."and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out"...for the sheep know his voice. John is caught up through the Sheepfold Door as he hears a voice of a Trumpet. This is a beautiful picture of the Rapture of the Church as it is shown in, 1 cor 15:51-52, 1 Thess 4:16-18 and Heb 12:18-23, Rev 1:10-11.

The word, Church or Churches, mysteriously disappears from the Revelation after 3:22 and is not mentioned again until Rev 22:16 and then, it only references back to what the Angel was going to tell John in the first 3 chapters concerning"these things in the churches". Too many people are trying to put the church into all of the Revelations when the fact is the Church is Not mentioned or seen on earth during the Seven Seals of Judgment.

The Holy Spirit used the Apostle John to write the Gospel of John, but he would later use John again to write the Book of Revelation. When the Apostle John writes his Gospel he makes a very curious statement. To many people this statement is overlooked and doesn't mean anything, but we know that every jot and tittle means something in God's Word! It's found in the repeated phrase, "The disciple whom Jesus Loved" repeated, to show it's importance, and it's found at least 3 times in the Gospel of John. Why would he use that term and why would the Holy Spirit include that in the text? Unless, John would later write the Book of Revelation and he would Typify the church, being caught up through the Sheepfold Door and Raptured to Heaven in the Spirit! In the heart of God, John is the Beloved! John is also known as, John the Divine, which seems to point to Divine love as much as it points to his inspired writings. Some people will scoff at the idea of the Apostle John being cast as a Type of Raptured Church in Rev 4 but they have to ignore all the signs and drive right around a mountain of evidence that shows that, that is exactly how he is portrayed.

David Taylor
Dec 3rd 2008, 06:09 PM
Revelation chapters 4-22 show scenes from both Heaven and Earth.

If the church is missing from Revelation after chapter 4, then where are they?

Just because the word 'church' is only used in the first 3 chapters when specifically addressing those 7 congregations doesn't mean the entire church universal goes missing after chapter 3.

You can find members of the church througout all of the rest of Revelation; just look for the faithful followers of the Lord. There are examples of them in each chapter; both in Heaven and on the Earth.

To say the church went missing, simply because the word 'church' isn't used isn't a very sound arguement.

The word 'church' isn't used in 80% of the verses in the New Testament, and isn't found in roughly half of the NT books. Does that mean those verses and books are also telling us the church is missing and they aren't talking about Christians?

Nope.

Context of the verses, not a specific grouping word ("church" in this case), determine where they are.

"Christians", members of Christ's church; are found throughout Revelation....and that's a word that is only found in two verses in the entire New Testament.

Lisadawn
Dec 3rd 2008, 06:22 PM
David Taylor,

Me thinks you protest too much....LOL

Bikelite..

Welcome to Bible Forums. I happen to agree with your post...which was excellent by the way. The Church age is described in Chapters 2 and 3 of Revelation....and then the Church is caught up to heaven in Chapter 4.

I liked your mention of the names given to John though. I hadn't thought of that before.

Lisa

jeffweeder
Dec 4th 2008, 12:15 AM
Too many people are trying to put the church into all of the Revelations when the fact is the Church is Not mentioned or seen on earth during the Seven Seals of Judgment.

Jesus told his disciples that he would come back for them "like a thief".


REV 16
12 The sixth angel poured out his bowl on the great river, the Euphrates; and its water was dried up, so that the way would be prepared for the kings from the east
13 And I saw coming out of the mouth of the dragon and out of the mouth of the beast and out of the mouth of the false prophet, three unclean spirits like frogs;
14 for they are spirits of demons, performing signs, which go out to the kings of the whole world, to gather them together for the war of the great day of God, the Almighty.
15 ("Behold, I am coming like a thief. Blessed is the one who stays awake and keeps his clothes, so that he will not walk about naked and men will not see his shame.")
16 And they gathered them together to the place which in Hebrew is called Har-Magedon.


That puts us still on the earth, as he still hasnt come at the 6th bowl.

Paul teaches us that the living saints will not be caught up until the ressurection, and the ressurection happens after the destruction-the last day.

1thess 5
2 For you yourselves know full well that the day of the Lord will come just like a thief in the night.
3 While they are saying, "Peace and safety!" then destruction will come upon them suddenly like labor pains upon a woman with child, and they will not escape.



10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up.





39 "But be sure of this, that if the head of the house had known at what hour the thief was coming, he would not have allowed his house to be broken into.
40 "You too, be ready; for the Son of Man is coming at an hour that you do not expect."
41 Peter said, "Lord, are You addressing this parable to us, or to everyone else as well?"
42 And the Lord said, "Who then is the faithful and sensible steward, whom his master will put in charge of his servants, to give them their rations at the proper time?
43 "Blessed is that slave whom his master finds so doing when he comes.
44 "Truly I say to you that he will put him in charge of all his possessions.
45 "But if that slave says in his heart, 'My master will be a long time in coming,' and begins to beat the slaves, both men and women, and to eat and drink and get drunk;
46 the master of that slave will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he does not know, and will cut him in pieces, and assign him a place with the unbelievers.

RANGER65
Dec 4th 2008, 01:13 AM
Jeff I believe you have the "catching away" and the "2nd advent" mixed into one container and the 16th chapter would be speaking if the 144,000 jewish virgin males and the tribulation saints. You may want to look at that again and differintiate as well as at least the last 3 and1/2 years of the 7 years can not come to pass until the church and the holy ghost are "taken out of the way" 2 Thess. Thanks and God Bless.

bennie
Dec 4th 2008, 01:30 AM
Jeff I believe you have the "catching away" and the "2nd advent" mixed into one container and the 16th chapter would be speaking if the 144,000 jewish virgin males and the tribulation saints. You may want to look at that again and differintiate as well as at least the last 3 and1/2 years of the 7 years can not come to pass until the church and the holy ghost are "taken out of the way" 2 Thess. Thanks and God Bless.


hi

that is if you believe in a 7 year trib. Where in revelation does it speak about a 7 year trib. ?

bennie

RANGER65
Dec 4th 2008, 01:31 AM
Where is the Church? It will be returning with Christ to defeat the armies of the world and then to dwell in the "bride of Christ". I plan on being right up front in the battle. Praise God. If any of you are here during Rev. Chpt 16 then somehow you need to make it to Mt Meggido through the bllood to drink and the fire and the gnawing off your tongues so you can meet with us and return with the Jews that are converted during the tribulation. You do not have to worry about these things unless you are the one's that killed the prophets...all of this takes place at or near Jerusalem not Pittsburgh. :) Thank the Lord.

bennie
Dec 4th 2008, 01:38 AM
Where is the Church? It will be returning with Christ to defeat the armies of the world and then to dwell in the "bride of Christ". I plan on being right up front in the battle. Praise God. If any of you are here during Rev. Chpt 16 then somehow you need to make it to Mt Meggido through the bllood to drink and the fire and the gnawing off your tongues so you can meet with us and return with the Jews that are converted during the tribulation. You do not have to worry about these things unless you are the one's that killed the prophets...all of this takes place at or near Jerusalem not Pittsburgh. :) Thank the Lord.


Hi

Jerusalem is a hole. Nothing holy about that city my friend.

The new Jerysalem that will desend out of heavan(after the 1000 years) from God will be magnivesent.

bennie

RANGER65
Dec 4th 2008, 01:43 AM
It doesn't but you can catch the final time, times and divided times (Daniel 7:25) starting at Rev. 11:1-19. That would encompass the last half of the 70th week and it will last 3 and 1/2 years. The first half would also equal 3 and 1/2 years which totals 7 years.

ServantoftheKing
Dec 4th 2008, 01:50 AM
Too many people are trying to put the church into all of the Revelations when the fact is the Church is Not mentioned or seen on earth during the Seven Seals of Judgment.

The Bible does not speak of the Seven Seals as "The Seven Seals of Judgment". No verse actually refers to all of the Seals as judgments from God in the Scripture. That label comes from man, from prophecy teachers, publishers, and editors. Only in the 6th Seal is the wrath of God seen. Also, there is no verse in Scripture that confines all of the Seals to the Tribulation timeframe. Just another thought.

God Bless,

ServantoftheKing

bennie
Dec 4th 2008, 01:55 AM
It doesn't but you can catch the final time, times and divided times (Daniel 7:25) starting at Rev. 11:1-19. That would encompass the last half of the 70th week and it will last 3 and 1/2 years. The first half would also equal 3 and 1/2 years which totals 7 years.

hi

the 70th week of daniel9 was completed in 33AD. Jesus died in 30AD, in the middle of the 70th week. There can not (and must not) be a arbitrary 2000 years in between.

bennie

ServantoftheKing
Dec 4th 2008, 01:58 AM
The Church age is described in Chapters 2 and 3 of Revelation....and then the Church is caught up to heaven in Chapter 4.

In Rev 1:19, John is told to write down the things which were (in John's past), the things which are (John's present), and the things that are to come (future).

In Rev 4:1, John (not the church) is called up to heaven so that he (John) can be shown what things are to come (future). In Revelation 2-3, John was addressing churches that existed during his time, not future churches. He begins writing about the future in Rev 4:1, but that verse is not describing the rapture.

God Bless,

ServantoftheKing

jeffweeder
Dec 4th 2008, 02:00 AM
Jeff I believe you have the "catching away" and the "2nd advent" mixed into one container

Yes , i believe they belong in the same container, you cant have 1 without the other.


For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.
16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.
18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

second coming happens first, followed by the ressurection, then in a twinkling of an eye the catching away.(rapture)

Literalist-Luke
Dec 4th 2008, 04:58 AM
To show that there is plenty of scriptural support for the rapture of the church coming before the seven year tribulation.Lay it on us.
The book of revelation in chapter 4, 5 have some very enlightening verses in them as it concerns the rapture of the church. Revelation chapter 3 closes out the church age.Hmm, it looks to me like it only closes out seven letters to seven churches….
Then to start chapter 4 it says after this or after the church age.You know, I use the TNIV, and I’m having trouble finding “after the Church Age”. What translation can I find that phrase in?
I looked and behold a door open in heaven and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me, which said come up hither and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter. So after the church age, it is John who sees what will happen after the church is caught up.Whenever that might be.
In Rev 4;1 John the Beloved, sees a DOOR opened in Heaven. In the Gospel of John 10:1 Jesus talks about the Door into the Sheepfold..then inverse 9, Jesus says, He is the Door, and in verse 11, Jesus says he is the Good Shepherd. It is interesting that it is the same Greek word for, Door, (yura thura) that is used in Rev 4:1 as John used for the Door into the sheepfold in John 10:1. Interesting yes, but inconclusive, since John is the only one who goes through the door in Revelation 4.
John is caught up through the Door into the Sheepfold, and John sees everything as a Type fo the church in Chapter 4.That is an assumption on your part based on your presupposition of a Pre-Trib Rapture.
In John 10:3 Jesus says..."and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out"...for the sheep know his voice. John is caught up through the Sheepfold Door as he hears a voice of a Trumpet. This is a beautiful picture of the Rapture of the Church as it is shown in, 1 cor 15:51-52, 1 Thess 4:16-18 and Heb 12:18-23, Rev 1:10-11.It is a “beautiful picture” of John being called into a vision which he will base Revelation on. You’re assuming a Pre-Trib Rapture to be a foregone conclusion and projecting that into this passage.
The word, Church or Churches, mysteriously disappears from the Revelation after 3:22 and is not mentioned again until Rev 22:16“Saints”.
and then, it only references back to what the Angel was going to tell John in the first 3 chapters concerning"these things in the churches". Too many people are trying to put the church into all of the Revelations when the fact is the Church is Not mentioned or seen on earth during the Seven Seals of Judgment.“Saints”.
The Holy Spirit used the Apostle John to write the Gospel of John, but he would later use John again to write the Book of Revelation. When the Apostle John writes his Gospel he makes a very curious statement. To many people this statement is overlooked and doesn't mean anything, but we know that every jot and tittle means something in God's Word! It's found in the repeated phrase, "The disciple whom Jesus Loved" repeated, to show it's importance, and it's found at least 3 times in the Gospel of John. Why would he use that termBecause he was trying to be more objective than to say “me” and “I”.
and why would the Holy Spirit include that in the text? Unless, John would later write the Book of Revelation and he would Typify the church, being caught up through the Sheepfold Door and Raptured to Heaven in the Spirit!I’m not sure even taffy could stretch that far.
In the heart of God, John is the Beloved! John is also known as, John the DivineIn what Bible verse?
which seems to point to Divine love as much as it points to his inspired writings.You mean like the entire Bible?
Some people will scoff at the idea of the Apostle John being cast as a Type of Raptured Church in Rev 4 but they have to ignore all the signs and drive right around a mountain of evidence that shows that, that is exactly how he is portrayed.Uh, I’m sorry, but your “evidence” hardly constitutes a mountain. It does, however, constitute a mountainous presupposition on your part.

vinsight4u8
Dec 4th 2008, 10:17 AM
Chapter 4 is not saying that - after the church age comes these next events.

What we are to do is let the word "after" signal that a new story is beginning. At chapter 4, we find that John hears the same as a trumpet voice that he heard for chapter 1 - and he is in the spirit.

Time passes between when John was given chapters 1-3 and the start of chapter 4. Look too at Rev. 7:9, 15:5, 18, 19...after type of chapters.


I find so many saying that John was caught up to heaven as in the start of chapter 4 was the rapture timing.

But - there isn't a marriage till chapter 19, John even tries to worship one of the seven angels.

In chapters 1-3 John ends his first time of hearing that as a trumpet voice. Chapter 4(

V1"...and the first voice which I heard..."

as in - we are to recall the first voice earlier that John wrote about for chapter 1

Jesus waits in heaven till time to make His enemies His footstool. It is impossible for Him to return till the time of the 7th trumpet. Rev. 11:18 is the place where Jesus can first begin to destroy those that are destroying the earth.

vinsight4u8
Dec 4th 2008, 10:29 AM
Rev. 1:9
"...for the testimony of Jesus Christ."

Rev. 12:11
"....overcame him by... the word of their testimony...."



What does Hebrews 9:28 say about His coming?
He appears when?
at the time of salvation


Rev. 12:10
"....Now is come salvation..."
Not at the start of chapter 4, but after the devil kicked out of heaven goes after those with the His testimony.


1:Thess. 5:9
Shows how long for the church to be here?
not appointed unto wrath but salvation

As in - the church will go through any wrath that happens before the salvation appearing time comes.

modanufu
Dec 4th 2008, 11:56 AM
Hi Bikelite,


Unless, John would later write the Book of Revelation

Yes but actually he didn't. Please read this:


"And there was shown unto me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein."] A reed was shown like to a rod. This itself is the Apocalypse which he subsequently exhibited to the churches; for the Gospel of the complete faith he subsequently wrote for the sake of our salvation. For when Valentinus, and Cerinthus, and Ebion, and others of the school of Satan, were scattered abroad throughout the world, there assembled together to him from the neighbouring provinces all the bishops, and compelled him himself also to draw up his testimony.

Quoted from the oldest commentary of Revelation still extant, written by Victorinus of Petavium (270-303 AD).

Kind regards,

Dik

TexasBeliever
Dec 4th 2008, 02:19 PM
To prove that the rapture is after the 7 years, when the coming of Christ is mentioned in the scriptures, it is ALWAYS described as coming at the END of days, after the signs in the sun, moon and stars, in flaming fire and wrath, with the whole world witness to it. Period.

There are two resurrections: the resurrection of the just and the resurrection of the dammed. The resurrection of the just is always described as the first resurrection (which means it's one of two---that's it).

When Jesus refered to His coming He used these words, " AFTER the tribulation of those days THEN you will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds in great glory and THEN He will gather His chosen from one end of heaven to the other."

These are straight forward words.
Show us where in the scriptures it says there are more than ONE resurrection of the just.
Show us where it says His coming is DESCRIBED as coming before the tribulation of those days.

Show us where it says these things in black and white without you're having to assume they do.

TexasBeliever
Dec 4th 2008, 02:24 PM
I can also prove the church IS present the entire time by these opening and closing words of JESUS in revelation:

"This is the revelation given by God to Jesus Christ so that He could tell his servants (that's us) about the things which are to take place very soon."

And the closing:
"I JESUS, have sent My angel to make these revelations (the whole book) to you FOR THE SAKE OF THE CHURCHES."

bikelite
Dec 4th 2008, 03:46 PM
The church has a heavenly calling Hebrews 3;1, Ephesians 1;3. The church is a body of believers whose head is in heaven Ephesians 1;20-22. The hope of the church are all heavenly. The blessing of the church have to do with heaven, not earth. They are all bound up with Christ who is risen and glorified at the Fathers right hand.The lord Jesus is waiting to receiveto himself his heavenly bride.The church John 17;24, She will be in the new Jerusalem described for us in Revelation 21;9-22. In contrast to this, the tribulation period has to do with the preparing of an earthly kingdom Mathew 25;34. This earthly kingdom is described in such as Isaiah 60. Teaching of the church going through the tribulation MIXES up and CONFUSES the heavenly blessing of the church with the earthly blessing of the KINGDOM. It also robs the church of the sanctifying hope of waiting and watching for her Lord LUKE 12;36.

David Taylor
Dec 4th 2008, 03:53 PM
Teaching of the church going through the tribulation MIXES up and CONFUSES the heavenly blessing of the church with the earthly blessing of the KINGDOM. It also robs the church of the sanctifying hope of waiting and watching for her Lord LUKE 12;36.

No it doesn't.

The hope of every faithful believer, is to be united with Christ forevermore.

Regardless of when He returns.

Saying he returns pre-trib, mid-trib, pre-wrath, or post-trib ---none of those views robs anyone of waiting and watching for their Lord.

Whenever Jesus returns, His faithful followers will be united with Him forevermore.

And where will they reside? On the New Earth....Heaven comes down, the Earth is remade in righteous fire and with the curse of sin and death removed....we shall inherit the Earth and all creation.

There is no racial dichotomy where some people inherit the Earth and some other people inherit Heaven.

All people are separated and divided into two groups: Those with Christ, and those against Christ.



Those who are His, who have been washed in the blood of the Lamb, made white as snow, redeemed by His sacrifice, and written in His book of Life will reside together forevermore with Him. AND
Those who are not His, will be cast into the firey flames, where the worm dieth not, and they will be in torment forever and ever, separated from Him.

No other groups and no other destinies exist.

bikelite
Dec 4th 2008, 03:56 PM
Can you use some scriptures to show me and not to take it out of context.

David Taylor
Dec 4th 2008, 04:12 PM
Can you use some scriptures to show me and not to take it out of context.

Sure thing...Let the Scriptures speak for themselves.

These examples are sufficient in showing there are two destinies that all mankind shall fall into; one or the other.

Two Groups: Faithful Believers and Unfaithful Rejectors






Luke 11:23 "He that is not with me is against me"

Matthew 7:13 "Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it."

Matthew 10:38 "And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me. He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it. "

Matthew 13:47 "a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind: Which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away. So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just, And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. "

Revelation 20:15, 21:7-8 "And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death."

Matthew 25:34 "the King shall say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal. "

2 Thessalonians 2:7 "when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day."

bikelite
Dec 4th 2008, 04:41 PM
Hi I as sorry but I do not understand what you are trying to say.

David Taylor
Dec 4th 2008, 05:43 PM
There isn't two different destinies (Heavenly vs Earthly) for two different subsetted groups of believers.

All believers, regardless of race, have the same destiny. To be with Christ wherever He is forevermore....in reply to your earlier statement that said:



Teaching of the church going through the tribulation MIXES up and CONFUSES the heavenly blessing of the church with the earthly blessing of the KINGDOM.


All blessings remain the same for all believers; there is no dichotomy between believers....just two different destinies between believers and nonbelievers. That's all.

bikelite
Dec 4th 2008, 05:56 PM
Thief in the night, Peter uses this mysterious term, first used by Paul in 1 thessalonians 5;2 But the day of the lord will come as a thief in the night. Christ will begin like a thief in the night It will be a sudden catastrophic break-in upon a world doing business as usual. Luke 17;26-29. This description hardly fits the post-trib view, or any other view that says Christ will rapture his church during a time of unprecedented trouble Jer 30;7 Matt 24;21 this indicates that it will be a total surpise , because a thief in the night doesnt announce his coming with great cataclysmic fanfare. The break-in is swift, stealthy a totally unexpected event..

David Taylor
Dec 4th 2008, 06:32 PM
Thief in the night, Peter uses this mysterious term, first used by Paul in 1 thessalonians 5;2 But the day of the lord will come as a thief in the night. Christ will begin like a thief in the night It will be a sudden catastrophic break-in upon a world doing business as usual. Luke 17;26-29. This description hardly fits the post-trib view

The idom of Christ coming like a "thief" is used in the NT 5 times; and each time its context is Post-Trib; at Christ's Return....(never 7 years before His Return).

In Matthew 24:29-44; It is discussing the return of the Lord; as a thief; and explicitly says this will occur "AFTER THE TRIBULATION". post-trib, not pre-trib.

In Thessalonians 4-5, Paul uses it to tell us that when the Lord comes to gather believers to Himself at His return; they will not be surprised, but the wicked will be surprised. post-trib, not pre-trib.

II Peter 3 again, uses the idiom of the thief in context with when Christ returns and the earth is cleanse and remade with fire; post-trib not pre-trib.

In Revelation 3, it is talking about believers remaining faithful until the "REVELATION" of Jesus (which is described at the end of the book, nowhere in the beginning of it); and of unbelievers being surprised; post-trib, not pre-trib.

In Revelation 16, right before the final 7th Vial, again, Jesus says He is coming, and not to be surprised when he comes as a theif, but to be ready. post-trib, not pre-trib.

None of the NT useages of the 'thief' idiom even remotely give a context of pre-trib anything....but rather, the complete destruction of the wicked who are not faithfully waiting and watching for Him at His Return.

bikelite
Dec 4th 2008, 09:53 PM
Peter foretells in these passages that the day of the lord will then run its course until the remaking of the heavens and earth the rapture will begin this day of the lord which will then run 1,007 years.. Thefirst phase of Christ second coming is the rapture like a thief in the night the second advent is when Jesus foot touches down on the Mount of Olives. Behold I shew you a mystery , we shall not all sleep but we shall all be changed. In a moment in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump, for the trumpet shall sound and the dead shall be raised incorruptible (the body) and we shall be changed 1 cor. 15;51-52. Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in a cloud, to meet the lord in the air, and so shall we ever be with the lord 1 thess 4;15-17. So the rapture will take place. Believers and the bodies of those who died during the church age will be caught up in one single moment of time. ALL not some will go instantly to be with Jesus.

Bick
Dec 4th 2008, 11:46 PM
I believe the church/body of Christ (notice the difference) will be 'raptured' before the start of Daniel's 70th week, but not from the book of Revelation.

First of all, 'church' is from 'ecclesia' in the Greek, which means 'called out ones.' The church/body of Christ is a special body which God planned before the 'foundation of the world." To Paul was revealed a secret hidden for ages and generations, which he made known to His body, Col. 1:24-27.

He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, Eph. 1:4.

Potentially, we have been raised up with Christ to sit with him in the heavenl places, Eph. 2:6. See 1 Cor. 15 and 1 Thes. 4:13-18.

Our future is in the heavenlies, with spiritual bodies, that God might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus,
Eph. 2:7.

We will not be apart of the Millennial Kingdom, as some would have it.

Let us read 2 Thes. 2 from vs.1 through 12 to understand the context.

In Paul's first letter to the Thessalonians, he made it clear that the dead in Christ would be raised first and then we which are alive will be shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and thus, always be with the Lord.
So, in 2 Thes. 2:1 Paul says, "Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our assembling to meet him, we beg you brethren , not to be quickly shaken in mind or excited, either by spirit or by word, or by letter...etc." RSV.

In verse 3, The correct rendering should be "Let no one deceive you in any way; for that day will not come, unless the departure (rebellion in RSV) comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed..."
And that goes along with what Paul said in verse 1.

Literalist-Luke
Dec 5th 2008, 01:12 AM
The church has a heavenly calling Hebrews 3;1, Ephesians 1;3. The church is a body of believers whose head is in heaven Ephesians 1;20-22. The hope of the church are all heavenly. The blessing of the church have to do with heaven, not earth. They are all bound up with Christ who is risen and glorified at the Fathers right hand.The lord Jesus is waiting to receiveto himself his heavenly bride.The church John 17;24, She will be in the new Jerusalem described for us in Revelation 21;9-22. In contrast to this, the tribulation period has to do with the preparing of an earthly kingdom Mathew 25;34. This earthly kingdom is described in such as Isaiah 60. Teaching of the church going through the tribulation MIXES up and CONFUSES the heavenly blessing of the church with the earthly blessing of the KINGDOM. It also robs the church of the sanctifying hope of waiting and watching for her Lord LUKE 12;36.Revelation 21 shows the "New Jerusalem" coming down to the earth. The 1000-year kingdom will be on the earth. Our hope is here on the earth, after it's taken over by Jesus.

quiet dove
Dec 5th 2008, 01:35 AM
I can also prove the church IS present the entire time by these opening and closing words of JESUS in revelation:

"This is the revelation given by God to Jesus Christ so that He could tell his servants (that's us) about the things which are to take place very soon."

And the closing:
"I JESUS, have sent My angel to make these revelations (the whole book) to you FOR THE SAKE OF THE CHURCHES."

I don't see how that proves anything except Jesus wanted us to have information about Gods plans and purposes. He also gave us a lot of history in the OT that we obviously did not live through.

RANGER65
Dec 5th 2008, 02:10 AM
I do not see anything to support the Church being here while the Anti-Christ is revealed it is contrary and the "saints mentioned in Revelations Chpt 7 (I think) are "come out of" the "Great Tribulation". These doctrines also have very fundamental problems with geography. It's a long way to Tel Aviv from Colorado baby. Which of the 12 original tribes of Israel are any of you from? I thought so. All of the "saints" mentioned after chpt 4 would either be Jews who are martyred in the "Great Tribulation" or they are the 144k virgin jewish males that are sealed with the name of the Father on their forehead and are protected from any of the trumpet judgements. I know the show on the history channel that tried to blow off the book of Revelations and it was as bad to me as the show that tried to show the flood of Noah as a creek that over flowed. Good discussion though. Pre-Trib or at the very worste Mid. The fixation on going through the Trib is a desire to meet the ultimate test and is by the largest percentage held by men. The truth brought forth in 2nd Thess tells a story of total deception of the "ones left behind" that still believe they are the "church" and it is actually God who sends that delusion upon them. The truth is if God didn't pull the church out it would fall prey to the "Falling Away" itself. "Even the most Elect if possible". That is what I see in the scriptures so far but I am always willing to learn more. I believe none of us are here by accident.

My heart's Desire
Dec 5th 2008, 04:44 AM
The idom of Christ coming like a "thief" is used in the NT 5 times; and each time its context is Post-Trib; at Christ's Return....(never 7 years before His Return).

In Matthew 24:29-44; It is discussing the return of the Lord; as a thief; and explicitly says this will occur "AFTER THE TRIBULATION". post-trib, not pre-trib.


I know one thing, when the Lord Jesus returns from heaven and fights the last battle it should be nothing like a thief coming in the dead of night!

My heart's Desire
Dec 5th 2008, 04:51 AM
The truth brought forth in 2nd Thess tells a story of total deception of the "ones left behind" that still believe they are the "church" and it is actually God who sends that delusion upon them.
I also find this interesting too. Why would God send His children (the church) such a delusion to the point of believing a lie? (Which is actually, THE LIE, not a lie) Why would He want His people to be deceived and to actually send a delusion so that they would be. This would make NO sense at ALL to me, yet it clearly says that God does send the delusion. This verse even almost tells me that ANY who are left after the catching away of the Church, will be deceived and will almost certainly not receive salvation unless it involved being sealed as the 144,000 will be.

bikelite
Dec 6th 2008, 01:30 AM
Hi the delusion you talk about is already here.

vinsight4u8
Dec 6th 2008, 02:27 PM
The church is apppointed to all wrath that happens before the salvation comes with the return of the Lord.

Go read Hebrews 9:28 and then look for what things are shown to take place in Revelation before that salvation time arrives.

Rev. 12
Rev. 19:1
Rev. 7

The great tribulation happens before Jesus comes for the church!


We all - the entire church waits for that salvation coming of Jesus Christ.