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John146
Dec 5th 2008, 04:40 PM
Frankly, I have seen some baffling interpretations of this passage, so I wanted to create a thread where we can all discuss it. I only want to discuss it in terms of whether it supports amil or premil and I don't want to get into any discussion about other doctrines that potentially could be related to this passage.

Here it is:

31When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
37Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
38When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
39Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
40And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
41Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

The first thing we should notice here is that it mentions Christ coming in all His glory and His angels with Him. This seems to be a clear reference to His second coming. I hope we can at least agree on that much. Then He sits upon His throne for judgment and all nations are gathered before Him. I hope we can also agree that this means all people are before Him at this time for judgment.

Now here is where amils and premils tend to differ. Who is it exactly that is being judged here? The nations, as in sheep and goat nations? Or individuals. Which means the sheep and goats are individuals that were separated into two groups from out of all nations. Amil believes this is a judgment of individuals. I'm not sure if there is a typical premil interpretation of this passages but I have seen more than one suggest that this is a judgment of nations only and not of individuals. Let me know how you see it.

Now, other scripture that speaks of the day of judgment and people being at the judgment seat of Christ clearly indicates that it is individuals that are judged and not entire nations. We can see that here:

Rom 14
10But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.
11For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.
12So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.

2 Cor 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

I believe it's very important that we allow scripture to interpret itself whenever possible. What possible reason could we have to think that the judgment portrayed in Matthew 25:31-46 is not the same one that is portrayed in Romans 14:10-12 and 2 Cor 5:10? I don't believe there is one. Therefore, I believe Matt 25:31-46 has to be referring to a judgment of individuals. If you think otherwise, please support your case using scripture.

So, I believe Matthew 25:31-46 is clearly referring to a judgment that takes place when Christ returns, all people will be there and individuals will be judged at that time.

The next question that needs to be answered is: what kind of judgment is this? A temporary one or eternal? Look at Matthew 25:34, 41 and 46. Clearly, we can see that eternal rewards or sentences are given out at that time. Does other scripture teach that eternal sentences are given to nations or to individuals? Clearly, to individuals. So, how can this passage be referring to anything but the day of judgment? Are there two days of judgment? If so, then why does scripture repeatedly refer to "the day of judgment"?

If you are post-trib like me then you likely believe that all believers will be changed and have immortal bodies when Christ returns. Since the sheep in this parable are given eternal life in the kingdom prepared for them from the foundation of the world it should be obvious that the sheep only refer to believers. How could unbelievers receive eternal life and inherit the kingdom prepared for them from the foundation of the world, right? That would make no sense. The goats are clearly unbelievers since they are cast into everlasting fire for everlasting punishment. So, we're left with believers in immortal bodies and unbelievers being cast into everlasting fire. Where does this leave any mortals to populate a supposed earthly millennial kingdom? This passage simply does not allow for such a time period to take place.

If you are pre-trib then I suppose you would try to say that the sheep do not have immortal bodies and are allowed to inherit the millennial kingdom. But it says the sheep are given eternal life (Matt 25:46) in the kingdom prepared for them from the foundation of the world. Does this mean you believe these mortal sheep won't die during the supposed future earthly millennium? Or do you believe they are changed at that time and have immortal bodies? If so, who are the ones who populate the supposed future millennial kingdom? It can't be the goats. They are cast into everlasting fire.

IBWatching
Dec 5th 2008, 05:30 PM
...If you are pre-trib then I suppose you would try to say that the sheep do not have immortal bodies and are allowed to inherit the millennial kingdom.

Yes. With emphasis on Millennial.


But it says the sheep are given eternal life (Matt 25:46) in the kingdom prepared for them from the foundation of the world.

Yes it does.


Does this mean you believe these mortal sheep won't die during the supposed future earthly millennium?

Yes. Anyone who dies during the MK is lost. Sent to Hades to await the GWT judgment.


Or do you believe they are changed at that time and have immortal bodies?

No.


If so, who are the ones who populate the supposed future millennial kingdom? It can't be the goats. They are cast into everlasting fire.

Mortal men, women and children who have survived the Tribulation period and subsequent separation judgments which started when Jesus Returned (as described by Jesus in the immediate context preceding the passage in your post).

The major difference between your view and mine is simply that I see the two resurrections of Revelation 20 as the two taught by Jesus to Israel. You see only one. Despite this, the one you see and the two I see are similar in one respect...there is no "changing" of live Believers accompanying them. There is nothing in the context of what Jesus taught Israel that talks about anything remotely resembling what Paul taught the Church about their resurrection/changing. Different place, different time, etc. To help some see how simple the error is, take a close look again at Rev 20:


Revelation 20:5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection.

Forget about the 1,000 years. I don't care if it is 1,000 nanoseconds. The plain English translation of the original Greek (no matter which English translation you use) states clearly that only a part of the dead are resurrected in the first resurrection. It does not matter how long of an interval passes between them, there are two resurrections of the dead here. And neither are accompanied by any "changing". In fact, what is happening to live Believers at that time is totally unclear from Rev 20 because they are not even mentioned in the context.

Nihil Obstat
Dec 5th 2008, 07:43 PM
Frankly, I have seen some baffling interpretations of this passage...

Probably not as baffling as mine...


The first thing we should notice here is that it mentions Christ coming in all His glory and His angels with Him. This seems to be a clear reference to His second coming. I hope we can at least agree on that much. Then He sits upon His throne for judgment and all nations are gathered before Him. I hope we can also agree that this means all people are before Him at this time for judgment.

Actually, no, we can't agree. Jesus speaks of His throne of glory in 19:28 also, so let's look there first. He tells Peter that in the regeneration (a word used only one other time to speak of the atonement made on the cross; Tts. 3:5) His disciples will receive in this life a hundredfold, and in the age to come would inherit eternal life. Therefore, the Son of Man sat on His throne of glory in their lifetime. We see Him telling them this same thing earlier in 16:28 when He what? - when He began to show them that He must suffer and be killed (16:21). Those who desire to follow Him must carry their cross and lose their life as well (16:24-26). And on the Mount of Transfiguration, Moses and Elijah appeared and spoke concerning His decease (Luke 9:31), and the audible voice of God said to the three disciples, "Hear Him!", speaking of His telling them of His death (the confirmed word of 2 Pet. 1:16-19).

We know that He considered His death as entering into His glory from John 12:23-41, when He even said that Isaiah saw Him in His glory. In Isa. 6, the prophet saw the Lord high and lifted up, and heard the heavenly witness proclaim that His glory fills the whole earth. But Jesus continually spoke of being lifted up at His death - not at His ascension, and not at His second coming (John 3:14-15; 12:24, 32). Isaiah saw Jesus' crucifixion at his commissioning, which he spoke of as "seated on His throne in glory". He also speaks of angels, the altar, and the purification of sins.

Concerning the nations being gathered before Him on the cross - familiarize yourself with Eze. 34 and Dan. 7 when reading Matt. 25:31-46. Jesus has said that He has come not to bring peace, but to bring a sword which will divide families. That sword is the cross, and the forgotten truth that the Messiah must first deliver them of their sins by suffering death before He delivers them from the nations. In this way the judgment of the sheep and goats is proleptic, as it is because of the cross that nations either accept or deny Him as their Lord and Savior.


Now here is where amils and premils tend to differ. Who is it exactly that is being judged here? The nations, as in sheep and goat nations? Or individuals. Which means the sheep and goats are individuals that were separated into two groups from out of all nations. Amil believes this is a judgment of individuals. I'm not sure if there is a typical premil interpretation of this passages but I have seen more than one suggest that this is a judgment of nations only and not of individuals. Let me know how you see it.

I believe it's very important that we allow scripture to interpret itself whenever possible. What possible reason could we have to think that the judgment portrayed in Matthew 25:31-46 is not the same one that is portrayed in Romans 14:10-12 and 2 Cor 5:10? I don't believe there is one. Therefore, I believe Matt 25:31-46 has to be referring to a judgment of individuals. If you think otherwise, please support your case using scripture.

So, I believe Matthew 25:31-46 is clearly referring to a judgment that takes place when Christ returns, all people will be there and individuals will be judged at that time.

This is a judgment of nations, not individuals. See Matt. 11:20-24; 12:38-45; 23:32-36; also Isa. 13-23; 28-33; etc.


The next question that needs to be answered is: what kind of judgment is this? A temporary one or eternal? Look at Matthew 25:34, 41 and 46. Clearly, we can see that eternal rewards or sentences are given out at that time. Does other scripture teach that eternal sentences are given to nations or to individuals? Clearly, to individuals. So, how can this passage be referring to anything but the day of judgment? Are there two days of judgment? If so, then why does scripture repeatedly refer to "the day of judgment"?

If you are post-trib like me then you likely believe that all believers will be changed and have immortal bodies when Christ returns. Since the sheep in this parable are given eternal life in the kingdom prepared for them from the foundation of the world it should be obvious that the sheep only refer to believers. How could unbelievers receive eternal life and inherit the kingdom prepared for them from the foundation of the world, right? That would make no sense. The goats are clearly unbelievers since they are cast into everlasting fire for everlasting punishment. So, we're left with believers in immortal bodies and unbelievers being cast into everlasting fire. Where does this leave any mortals to populate a supposed earthly millennial kingdom? This passage simply does not allow for such a time period to take place.

If you are pre-trib then I suppose you would try to say that the sheep do not have immortal bodies and are allowed to inherit the millennial kingdom. But it says the sheep are given eternal life (Matt 25:46) in the kingdom prepared for them from the foundation of the world. Does this mean you believe these mortal sheep won't die during the supposed future earthly millennium? Or do you believe they are changed at that time and have immortal bodies? If so, who are the ones who populate the supposed future millennial kingdom? It can't be the goats. They are cast into everlasting fire.

Again, this judgment, like the one descibed in Eze. 34, is proleptic - similar to Rev. 22:11.

Looking forward to the responses I'm sure to get! - Astro

John146
Dec 5th 2008, 08:19 PM
You won't get any response from me, Astro, except :confused and :eek:

I can't make any sense out of anything you said. You said it's a judgment of nations. So, some nations will receive eternal life in the kingdom prepared for them from the foundation of the world while others will be cast into everlasting fire for everlasting punishment? I'm afraid to ask, but can you explain that?

John146
Dec 5th 2008, 08:22 PM
Yes. With emphasis on Millennial.



Yes it does.



Yes. Anyone who dies during the MK is lost. Sent to Hades to await the GWT judgment.



No.



Mortal men, women and children who have survived the Tribulation period and subsequent separation judgments which started when Jesus Returned (as described by Jesus in the immediate context preceding the passage in your post).

The major difference between your view and mine is simply that I see the two resurrections of Revelation 20 as the two taught by Jesus to Israel. You see only one. Despite this, the one you see and the two I see are similar in one respect...there is no "changing" of live Believers accompanying them. There is nothing in the context of what Jesus taught Israel that talks about anything remotely resembling what Paul taught the Church about their resurrection/changing. Different place, different time, etc. To help some see how simple the error is, take a close look again at Rev 20:

Forget about the 1,000 years. I don't care if it is 1,000 nanoseconds. The plain English translation of the original Greek (no matter which English translation you use) states clearly that only a part of the dead are resurrected in the first resurrection. It does not matter how long of an interval passes between them, there are two resurrections of the dead here. And neither are accompanied by any "changing". In fact, what is happening to live Believers at that time is totally unclear from Rev 20 because they are not even mentioned in the context.Can you go through Matthew 25:31-46 and show me how what you're saying here fits with that text? You didn't offer any scriptural support within your post so how can I know how you come to your conclusions?

It's interesting that you believe that no one receives their immortal bodies at that time and yet believers don't die during that time? How can that be? Do you believe they are changed and will have immortal bodies after that time?

wpm
Dec 5th 2008, 08:36 PM
In this way the judgment of the sheep and goats is proleptic, as it is because of the cross that nations either accept or deny Him as their Lord and Savior.


Since when has salvation ever been a national thing????

John146
Dec 5th 2008, 08:59 PM
Since when has salvation ever been a national thing????That's what I'm wondering. I'm completely astounded that some believe that this is a judgment of nations when it clearly portrays eternal rewards and punishment being given out.

DeafPosttrib
Dec 5th 2008, 10:40 PM
I would like to say something on Matthew 25:31-46.

I consider Matthew 25:31-46 is probably the simplest and clearest describe of end time passage of the Bible than any passages in the Bible.

Matthew 25:31-46 is very clearly speak of:

1. One future coming -posttribulational

2. One Judgment Day- Amillennial

3. Two classes - sheep(saved) and goats(unsaved)-doesn't support premil dispensationalism

4. No 'a thousand years' mentioned in this passage- is clearly amillennial.


Ok. I cannot understand why many pretribs seem have hard time deal with Matthew 25:31-46, while Christ spoken of this passage is so clear? Why cannot pretribs accept Christ's lecture of Matthew 25:31-46 is clearly one future coming? Why cannot pretribs (include premi/postribs) accept of Matt. 25:31-46 is clearly shown of one judgment day?

Look. I am not going to have purprose for being attack on pretribulationism and premillennialism, because I refuse use pretribs/premills' NAME in Bibleforum. I only discuss about the doctrine of the groups, not individual's names. I hope you understand clear what I am talking about.

Two simple questions:

Do you actual understand what Christ was actual talking about on Matt. 25:31-46?

Do you accept Christ's lecture of Matthew 25:31-46 which speak clearly of one future coming, & one judgment day?

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

quiet dove
Dec 5th 2008, 11:52 PM
The topic is Matthew 25:31-46 supporting amil, not, bash pre mil for disagreeing, please be careful here guys.

DeafPosttrib
Dec 6th 2008, 12:46 AM
quiet dove,

Peace :hug:

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

Nihil Obstat
Dec 6th 2008, 07:24 AM
You won't get any response from me, Astro, except :confused and :eek:

I can't make any sense out of anything you said. You said it's a judgment of nations. So, some nations will receive eternal life in the kingdom prepared for them from the foundation of the world while others will be cast into everlasting fire for everlasting punishment? I'm afraid to ask, but can you explain that?

Haha, yeah, I figured I'd get a response like that. Here's the main and the plain: In Matt. 25:31-46, Jesus is speaking about the cross. The throne of His glory is His cross. His being seated on it is His being crucified to it. The nations are gathered before Him and judged; some nations will be sprinkled (Isa. 52:15), while other nations will be trampled (Isa. 63).

Take into consideration that when speaking of the cross event, Jesus often used the same language as the prophets did when speaking of the Day of the Lord. Before that Day, Elijah had to come, and Jesus said that John the Baptist was Elijah if you had ears to hear. The Day of the Lord brings down the haughty and exalts the humble, which phrase Jesus uses when speaking of the cross. After that Day would come the resurrection, which Matthew alone speaks of briefly. The reason many passages commonly thought to be about the Second Coming are actually about the cross is because God thinks in terms of covenant, not necessarily in terms of time. The new covenant was ratified at the cross, but will not be confirmed or enforced until His return. The fact that there's a 2000 year gap of time separating these two events doesn't seem to bother God.

There are actually more verses on the judgment of nations than there are of the judgment of individuals, and I think this is largely due to the fact that at His second coming entire nations will literally rage against Him, and the entire surviving remnant of Israel will be saved out of their trouble. So we see entire nations being eternally condemned and others given eternal life at His return; but we also read of this occurring at His first coming when He is lifted up from the earth on the cross.

Spend time in prayer about this; my inner man has been buzzing for months now about this (and I've only spoken about one or two of the many O&NT passages that I now see as speaking of the cross) - yes my mind is excited but more importantly my heart is alive.

Be blessed! - Astro

IBWatching
Dec 6th 2008, 06:15 PM
Can you go through Matthew 25:31-46 and show me how what you're saying here fits with that text? You didn't offer any scriptural support within your post so how can I know how you come to your conclusions?

It's interesting that you believe that no one receives their immortal bodies at that time and yet believers don't die during that time? How can that be? Do you believe they are changed and will have immortal bodies after that time?

You said you are post-trib. You made the statement that pre-tribbers would make certain statements about the Matthew 25 sheep/goat judgments. I just posted as a reaction to that statement. And I did offer Scripture. It is the only one I find that is pertinent to the statements you made about your position. I'll offer it again.


Revelation 20:4...And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years...5...This is the first resurrection.

Again, every major English Bible translation calls the resurrection of those whom the second death has no power over (Believers) the first resurrection. If there are no others, then why is it called the first?

Only if you can see what the Scripture clearly says about the two resurrections in Revelation 20 will you see why your position regarding Matthew 25:31-46 can't be correct. In regards to Believing mortals who enter the Millennial Kingdom, we aren't told what happens to them. We are told what happens to those who fall away in the MK. They are sent to Hades. The Bible simply doesn't give many details about the MK. I believe this is why:


2 Thessalonians 1:10. when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe, because our testimony among you was believed.

There was no need for the Bible to give us details. Everyone who had ever Believed or Believed to that point in time will be there (OT, Church, Trib Saints as well as Believing mortals who survived the tribulation period). All of them will be there to experience it. We have to accept this Truth despite not knowing the details. For instance, we are told that Church Saints will judge angels (1 Cor 6:3). Yet the Bible tells us nothing about when or where this will happen. That doesn't prevent me from Believing it.

Sirus
Dec 6th 2008, 08:06 PM
If you are post-trib like me then you likely believe that all believers will be changed and have immortal bodies when Christ returns. Since the sheep in this parable are given eternal life in the kingdom prepared for them from the foundation of the world it should be obvious that the sheep only refer to believers. How could unbelievers receive eternal life and inherit the kingdom prepared for them from the foundation of the world, right? That would make no sense. The goats are clearly unbelievers since they are cast into everlasting fire for everlasting punishment. So, we're left with believers in immortal bodies and unbelievers being cast into everlasting fire. Where does this leave any mortals to populate a supposed earthly millennial kingdom? This passage simply does not allow for such a time period to take place.

If you are pre-trib then I suppose you would try to say that the sheep do not have immortal bodies and are allowed to inherit the millennial kingdom. But it says the sheep are given eternal life (Matt 25:46) in the kingdom prepared for them from the foundation of the world. Does this mean you believe these mortal sheep won't die during the supposed future earthly millennium? Or do you believe they are changed at that time and have immortal bodies? If so, who are the ones who populate the supposed future millennial kingdom? It can't be the goats. They are cast into everlasting fire.Well if the tree and river of life return, mortal man could then live forever just as God said of the earthy, natural, mortal first Adam. Ezekiel 47 is not speaking of the new earth because there is no sea in the new earth (Rev 21). Revelation 22 speaks of this also and we know it is not likely the new earth because there are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie outside the gate, and those that do his commandments can enter the gate and access the tree of life. However the tree of life IS also in the new earth.

I am not pre-trib or necessarily post-trib, depending on your definition of post-trib, but I don't think the sheep here have immortal bodies either. Who is Jesus talking to in Mat 25? Jews. Certainly Gentiles can be sheep and we know Gentiles are in the millennial kingdom and receive inheritance and are considered as part of Israel. Sheep are those who's righteousness exceeds the righteousness of scribes and pharisees so they can enter the kingdom of heaven (earthy/natural) and the goats are the wicked.

The resurrection occurs when He appears. So, does He appear, defeat, and begin ruling in one day, ten minutes, 402 days, or three and a half years?

wpm
Dec 6th 2008, 09:33 PM
There are actually more verses on the judgment of nations than there are of the judgment of individuals, and I think this is largely due to the fact that at His second coming entire nations will literally rage against Him, and the entire surviving remnant of Israel will be saved out of their trouble. So we see entire nations being eternally condemned and others given eternal life at His return; but we also read of this occurring at His first coming when He is lifted up from the earth on the cross.


God rescues His elect before pouring out His wrath upon the wicked. We saw that in the flood. We saw that in Sodom. He even did that in Jerusalem before AD 70. He give the Church the warning sign before the tribulation of that day. When Jesus comes, He will rescue what belongs to Him and destroy everything left behind. Jesus said it will be like the flood. It will be like Sodom.

When we analyse the detail of the sheep and goats parable we see that it must surely be a judgment of individuals and not nations. For instance, how could a specific nation possibly visit a sick person (v 43)? How could a nation possibly visit a prisoner in prison (v 43)? What is more, how then could a nation face eternal damnation for not performing such an impossible act? Such a hypothesis is totally illogical and completely contrary to the repeated scriptural truth that all men will account for their lives and actions when Christ comes. This judgment, like every other in Scripture,is an all-consummating general judgment of the deeds of all mankind within “all nations” and a testing of their individual works. What the phrase “all nations” simply and constantly indicates in Scripture is “the whole world.”

The phrase “sheep nations” is an extra-biblical term invented by some to fit their notion of a temporal period preceding the Coming of the Lord. Scriptures knows nothing of such a term. The usage of the word "nations" simply speaks of people of all nationalities (nothing more and nothing less). It is speaking of individuals from among all nations rather than the individual nation as a whole. To add anything further to it is to add private interpretation to it in order to sustain the Premil viewpoint. Anyway, no one is cast into hell because he is born in a ‘goat nation’. Such a nation doesn’t exist. No one makes heaven because he is born in a ‘sheep nation’. Again, none exists. No, men and women are judged individually on whether they accepted Christ and therefore lived for Him. There is neither Jew nor Greek in Christ. Heaven sees no separation among the elect. There will be no Baptists and no Pentecostals, no Calvinist and no Arminianists. There will be no Americans and no Australians. Just redeemed saints from all the nations bought by precious blood – sinners saved by grace.

wpm
Dec 6th 2008, 09:37 PM
Well if the tree and river of life return, mortal man could then live forever just as God said of the earthy, natural, mortal first Adam. Ezekiel 47 is not speaking of the new earth because there is no sea in the new earth (Rev 21). Revelation 22 speaks of this also and we know it is not likely the new earth because there are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie outside the gate, and those that do his commandments can enter the gate and access the tree of life. However the tree of life IS also in the new earth.

I am not pre-trib or necessarily post-trib, depending on your definition of post-trib, but I don't think the sheep here have immortal bodies either. Who is Jesus talking to in Mat 25? Jews. Certainly Gentiles can be sheep and we know Gentiles are in the millennial kingdom and receive inheritance and are considered as part of Israel. Sheep are those who's righteousness exceeds the righteousness of scribes and pharisees so they can enter the kingdom of heaven (earthy/natural) and the goats are the wicked.

The resurrection occurs when He appears. So, does He appear, defeat, and begin ruling in one day, ten minutes, 402 days, or three and a half years?

The sheep are the righteous, the goats are the wicked. The sheep are rescued, the wicked are destroyed. Nothing could be easier. There is no 3rd group. There is no Jew or Gentile today. There are only saved or lost.

Sirus
Dec 6th 2008, 10:24 PM
The sheep are the righteous, the goats are the wicked. The sheep are rescued, the wicked are destroyed. Nothing could be easier. There is no 3rd group. There is no Jew or Gentile today. There are only saved or lost.That's what I said, but we aren't talking about today are we? We are talking about after Christ appears therefore we are talking about after the resurrection.

It is assumed by many that the separation of the sheep and goats is the judgment seat of Christ for believers, but no scripture says any such thing. In fact scripture is not totally clear when that occurs and whether it happens corporately or individually. There are no goats or tares in the kingdom of God. That's kingdom of heaven. Matthew 25 is a judgment of what is left after the tribulation. Plain and simple. If the gathering of the nations is for all time then it would be the Great White Throne Judgment but since we know that is not until the end we have to conclude this is the King setting up His earthly kingdom with the remains of the tribulation where resurrected believers rule and reign with him.

wpm
Dec 6th 2008, 11:50 PM
That's what I said, but we aren't talking about today are we? We are talking about after Christ appears therefore we are talking about after the resurrection.

It is assumed by many that the separation of the sheep and goats is the judgment seat of Christ for believers, but no scripture says any such thing. In fact scripture is not totally clear when that occurs and whether it happens corporately or individually. There are no goats or tares in the kingdom of God. That's kingdom of heaven. Matthew 25 is a judgment of what is left after the tribulation. Plain and simple. If the gathering of the nations is for all time then it would be the Great White Throne Judgment but since we know that is not until the end we have to conclude this is the King setting up His earthly kingdom with the remains of the tribulation where resurrected believers rule and reign with him.

If we let Scripture interpret Scripture - a principle that Premil Durbandude objected to today, the GWT is the end. It is the Coming of Christ. It connects with Daniel 7:9-10 and Matthew 25.

Revelation 20:11-15 declares,“And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.”

(1) There is nowhere else in Scripture that speaks of a “great white throne” or “white throne” yet look at the elaborate school of thought that has flowed from it. The great white throne relates to Christ's one and only eternal throne.

(2) No Scripture explicitly says only the lost appear before the judgment. Neither is the judgment that is depicted before the great white throne in Revelation 20:11-15 restricted simply to the wicked. It says, "I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.” The fact that they are judged by the book of life implies some are lost and others are saved.

I don't believe that because it is described in different terminology in Revelation 20 to what it is described in other places in Scripture that it necessarily refers to a different throne. Also, the saved of the millennium must be involved in this judgment. All that die throughout the millennium must obviously be included among the dead here.

I recently heard a preacher ask in the midst of a sermon on this subject, why does Scripture call this ‘the great white throne for sinners’? To which I turned quickly to Revelation 20 to check out that supposed quote, only to find that it says nothing of the sort, but instead simply describes a ‘great white throne’. I then checked my computer concordance later to find whether there were other such references in Scripture to which I discovered there was none.

Significantly, this is the only reference to a great white throne in Scripture. However, the mileage that some get out of this one description is enormous. They continually talk about two thrones of judgment; the first being ‘the judgment seat of Christ’ and second being ‘the great white throne’.

This passages correlates with every other judgment passage we see in Scripture, which reveals, (1) The Coming of Christ, (2) the destruction of this present world, (3) the general judgment , (4) the absence of survivors, and (5) the finality of the event. This is the time when the books are finally opened. This scene is repeated in Daniel 7:9-10, where we see the glorious all-consummating appearance of Christ which ushers in the general judgment in which ‘the books were opened’, saying, “I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire. A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.”

Revelation 20 is therefore a symbolic viewing of the reign of God’s people on earth and the position of the devil during that reign.

It is also paralleled in Matthew 25:31-34, 41, 46, where Jesus said, “when the son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: and (1) he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but (2) the goats on the left. Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world … then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels … and these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.”

Premillennialists struggle badly with this explicit passage. Therefore, some try to argue that this is a judgment of “nations” that will enter the millennium rather than the hearts and deeds of all mankind at this final judgment . Notwithstanding, they have absolutely no biblical warrant for claiming this, as the millennium is never even mentioned in this passage. This is a classic example of taking a word that is clear in its context and forcing it to fit into ones pre-suppositions. Christ is obviously talking about an individual judgment of all people.

Sirus
Dec 7th 2008, 01:22 AM
Christ separating the remains (sheep/goats) of the tribulation in setting up his earthly kingdom reign in no way automatically suggests or demands an individual judgment of all people of all time. I don't struggle with Mat 25/kingdom of heaven passage at all because it doesn't concern me as I do not trust in a works based salvation or a salvation+works based salvation. I am saved by grace through faith alone, not of works. Mat 25 gives entrance to the kingdom of heaven, not God, based on works alone without any mention of faith. What does that have to do with me?
I don't believe that because it is described in different terminology in Revelation 20 to what it is described in other places in Scripture that it necessarily refers to a different throne.

.........
.......

This passages correlates with every other judgment passage we see in Scripture, which reveals, (1) The Coming of Christ, (2) the destruction of this present world, (3) the general judgment , (4) the absence of survivors, and (5) the finality of the event.I have not said the JSC and GWT can't be one and the same judgment have I? No. I said Mat 25 is neither.

I'd like you to show that ALL judgment passages, especially Mat 25, reveal
(2) the destruction of this present world
(4) the absence of survivors
(5) the finality of the event (if you mean all things and time fulfilled)

Nihil Obstat
Dec 7th 2008, 03:12 AM
When we analyse the detail of the sheep and goats parable we see that it must surely be a judgment of individuals and not nations.

How does this judgment being individuals and not nations cause pre-mil to be questionable...? I believe individuals will be judged. Who doesn't? I guess I don't see what the beef is with this passage. I also don't understand how you don't see nations being judged in Scripture. Daniel saw beasts rising out of the sea which symbolized the Babylonian, Persian, Grecian, and Roman empires, and all were slain. He also saw (in ch.8) Persia and Greece as sacrificial animals (cp. Isa. 34). What do you have to say to this? Not just empires, but individual cities are judged - as you pointed out with Sodom. Again, not too difficult to find examples of this, and as I stated, there is way more of this type of talk in Scripture than there is of individuals being judged. God cares for individuals, cities, nations, and the very soil of their lands, and all His ways are righteous.

I say this with much love: Your beef is with Jesus as Judge, not with my interpretation of Matt. 25. Peace. - Astro

RevLogos
Dec 7th 2008, 03:35 AM
Christ separating the remains (sheep/goats) of the tribulation in setting up his earthly kingdom reign in no way automatically suggests or demands an individual judgment of all people of all time. I don't struggle with Mat 25/kingdom of heaven passage at all because it doesn't concern me as I do not trust in a works based salvation or a salvation+works based salvation. I am saved by grace through faith alone, not of works. Mat 25 gives entrance to the kingdom of heaven, not God, based on works alone without any mention of faith. What does that have to do with me?


It has everything to do with you. We are saved by grace yes, but grace produces fruit. Without fruit there is no salvation. Mat 25 gives examples of salvation by grace evidenced by the fruit it bears. This is perfectly consistent with scripture.

Mat 3:8 Produce fruit in keeping with repentance.

Mat 3:10 Even now the ax is laid at the root of the trees, and every tree that does not produce good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire.

Mat 7:16 By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles?
Mat 7:17 Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit.
Mat 7:18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit.
Mat 7:19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
Mat 7:20 Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.

Luk 6:43 "No good tree bears bad fruit, nor does a bad tree bear good fruit.
Luk 6:44 Each tree is recognized by its own fruit. People do not pick figs from thornbushes, or grapes from briers.
Luk 6:45 The good man brings good things out of the good stored up in his heart, and the evil man brings evil things out of the evil stored up in his heart. For out of the overflow of his heart his mouth speaks.

Joh 15:1 "I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener.
Joh 15:2 He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful.
Joh 15:3 You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you.
Joh 15:4 Remain in me, and I will remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me.
Joh 15:5 "I am the vine; you are the branches. If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing.

RevLogos
Dec 7th 2008, 04:13 AM
This is a classic example of taking a word that is clear in its context and forcing it to fit into ones pre-suppositions. Christ is obviously talking about an individual judgment of all people.

I'm not sure there is a single timeline of events that doesn't require some creative interpretation somewhere.

The Mat 25 sheep/goats story does show one judgment, and Jesus Himself never mentions two judgments. An Amil case is a slam dunk - until one reads Rev 20.

In Rev 20 we have the righteous, who survive the tribulations, who didn't take the mark, reign with Christ for 1000 years. This is called the first resurrection. Then after the thousand years, the dead are raised for their judgment. (20:4-5). This is the second death. This seems to put the separation of the goats a thousand years after the separation of the sheep. That doesn't make a lot of sense to me though.

It also does not make sense to me to throw Satan into the abyss after a battle, only to bring Satan back up after a thousand years for another battle. And if all the people reigning with Christ in that thousand years are the faithful then who is Satan going to deceive at the end of the thousand years?

Is there any single timeline that satisfies every verse of scripture? One judgment on the Day of the Lord after the tribulation period seems to satisfy the most scripture. But Rev 20 does cause problems. But adding raptures and judgments here and there seems to unnecessarily complicate things, and requires that Jesus hid a lot from us.

wpm
Dec 7th 2008, 05:36 AM
Christ separating the remains (sheep/goats) of the tribulation in setting up his earthly kingdom reign in no way automatically suggests or demands an individual judgment of all people of all time. I don't struggle with Mat 25/kingdom of heaven passage at all because it doesn't concern me as I do not trust in a works based salvation or a salvation+works based salvation. I am saved by grace through faith alone, not of works. Mat 25 gives entrance to the kingdom of heaven, not God, based on works alone without any mention of faith. What does that have to do with me?I have not said the JSC and GWT can't be one and the same judgment have I? No. I said Mat 25 is neither.

I'd like you to show that ALL judgment passages, especially Mat 25, reveal
(2) the destruction of this present world
(4) the absence of survivors
(5) the finality of the event (if you mean all things and time fulfilled)

You may want to start another thread with your other points, but this one is about Matthew 25. As I have shown, this is judgment day and all creation is found here both saved (the sheep) and lost (the goats). The righteous are rewarded the wicked are destroyed.

BroRog
Dec 7th 2008, 05:37 AM
One thing to bear in mind as we think about the judging of the "nations" is the fact that there is a difference between a "country" and a "nation." The Greek word behind the word "nation" in this context is ethnos: tribe, nation, people group, pagans, gentiles. This speaks about people as they relate to each other ethnically, not politically.

wpm
Dec 7th 2008, 05:52 AM
How does this judgment being individuals and not nations cause pre-mil to be questionable...? I believe individuals will be judged. Who doesn't? I guess I don't see what the beef is with this passage. I also don't understand how you don't see nations being judged in Scripture. Daniel saw beasts rising out of the sea which symbolized the Babylonian, Persian, Grecian, and Roman empires, and all were slain. He also saw (in ch.8) Persia and Greece as sacrificial animals (cp. Isa. 34). What do you have to say to this? Not just empires, but individual cities are judged - as you pointed out with Sodom. Again, not too difficult to find examples of this, and as I stated, there is way more of this type of talk in Scripture than there is of individuals being judged. God cares for individuals, cities, nations, and the very soil of their lands, and all His ways are righteous.

I say this with much love: Your beef is with Jesus as Judge, not with my interpretation of Matt. 25. Peace. - Astro

You are totally missing the point. This is the great day when the individual saved and unsaved are ushered either into heaven or into hell. That is the sentences. This cannot in any way be the judgment of a nation or nations. No way!!! Your comparison is therefore totally inadmissible. This is the final general judgment. It reinforces the Amil understanding as the Op suggested of a climactic end to the world when Jesus comes.

You need to see that the result of this judgment is either "everlasting fire" (Matthew 25:41) or alternatively "everlasting punishment" (Matthew 25:46). This cannot be nations.

The destruction of nations that you mentioned to support your position were never to determine their spiritual position on Judgment Day but simply to remove them from this scene of time.

wpm
Dec 7th 2008, 05:59 AM
I'm not sure there is a single timeline of events that doesn't require some creative interpretation somewhere.

The Mat 25 sheep/goats story does show one judgment, and Jesus Himself never mentions two judgments. An Amil case is a slam dunk - until one reads Rev 20.

In Rev 20 we have the righteous, who survive the tribulations, who didn't take the mark, reign with Christ for 1000 years. This is called the first resurrection. Then after the thousand years, the dead are raised for their judgment. (20:4-5). This is the second death. This seems to put the separation of the goats a thousand years after the separation of the sheep. That doesn't make a lot of sense to me though.

It also does not make sense to me to throw Satan into the abyss after a battle, only to bring Satan back up after a thousand years for another battle. And if all the people reigning with Christ in that thousand years are the faithful then who is Satan going to deceive at the end of the thousand years?

Is there any single timeline that satisfies every verse of scripture? One judgment on the Day of the Lord after the tribulation period seems to satisfy the most scripture. But Rev 20 does cause problems. But adding raptures and judgments here and there seems to unnecessarily complicate things, and requires that Jesus hid a lot from us.

Jesus was the first resurrection. I cannot see how you make the believers resurrection the first.

Acts 26:23 presents Christ’s physical resurrection as the first resurrection, saying, “Christ should suffer, and that He should bethe first resurrection from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles (ethnos Strong’s 1484)."

Colossians 1:18 closely mirrors Acts 26:23, saying, “And he (Christ) is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.”

Revelation 1:5 uses the same Greek word to describe Christ’s triumphant resurrection, saying, “Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead,and the prince of the kings of the earth.”

Paul similarly says in 1 Corinthians 15:20, “now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.”

Anyway, this thread is about Matthew 25. As you seem to concede, it seems to intimate a climactic Judgment. There is no 1,000 yrs in it to be seen. Also, the sheep and goats are before the same throne at the same time.

BroRog
Dec 7th 2008, 06:07 AM
In my investigation of the Millennium, and my discussions with folks here and elsewhere, I think we tend to skip a step or two as we think this through together.

As others have pointed out, rightly I think, this passage doesn't explicitly speak to the issue of the Millennium. It appears to be a depiction of the White Throne Judgment, which everyone seems to agree is Post-millennial.

As I think this through I keep thinking that I continue to make assumptions that don't turn out to be true. For instance, Jesus speaks about coming in his Glory with all his angels, which I have always assumed would be the only time Jesus would visit the earth.

However, I just can not square this idea with the previous parable in which Jesus speaks about a king who gives money to his servants that they might do business with it. In at least two cases of the parable, the ones who do business with the money are given to be rulers over things. If this does not speak of the Millennial period, then there must be ANOTHER period, perhaps after the Millennium, in which Jesus' servants are given time to act as leaders and rulers.

In another place Peter questions Jesus about the sacrifices Peter and the other apostles are about to make for the Gospel.

Peter began to say to Him, "Behold, we have left everything and followed You." Jesus said, "Truly I say to you, there is no one who has left house or brothers or sisters or mother or father or children or farms, for My sake and for the gospel's sake, but that he will receive a hundred times as much now in the present age, houses and brothers and sisters and mothers and children and farms, along with persecutions; and in the age to come, eternal life.

The striking thing about this passage is the idea that Jesus is promising Peter that he will receive a hundred times as much as he gave up -- NOW, in the present age.

I don't really know how to make sense of this promise unless this age doesn't end when Jesus returns next time. Somehow, Peter is going to get a hundred times as much as he gave up in this age, even though he died sometime in the first century. There has to be a time period in which Peter gets to enjoy his hundredfold increase in this age.

And I don't take this as a metaphorical statement as if Jesus is speaking in hyperbole or "spiritually" because he says Peter will obtain his hundredfold increase "along with persecutions", which we know were actual and real.

I continue to wonder if "coming in Glory" is substantially greater than returning to earth to restore Israel and rule the nations from Jerusalem. I mean, maybe he does both.

Or perhaps Peter, Paul, Daniel, come back to life and rule on earth for Christ during a particular period in this age?

Just thinking out loud.

wpm
Dec 7th 2008, 06:36 AM
In my investigation of the Millennium, and my discussions with folks here and elsewhere, I think we tend to skip a step or two as we think this through together.

As others have pointed out, rightly I think, this passage doesn't explicitly speak to the issue of the Millennium. It appears to be a depiction of the White Throne Judgment, which everyone seems to agree is Post-millennial.

As I think this through I keep thinking that I continue to make assumptions that don't turn out to be true. For instance, Jesus speaks about coming in his Glory with all his angels, which I have always assumed would be the only time Jesus would visit the earth.

However, I just can not square this idea with the previous parable in which Jesus speaks about a king who gives money to his servants that they might do business with it. In at least two cases of the parable, the ones who do business with the money are given to be rulers over things. If this does not speak of the Millennial period, then there must be ANOTHER period, perhaps after the Millennium, in which Jesus' servants are given time to act as leaders and rulers.

In another place Peter questions Jesus about the sacrifices Peter and the other apostles are about to make for the Gospel.

Peter began to say to Him, "Behold, we have left everything and followed You." Jesus said, "Truly I say to you, there is no one who has left house or brothers or sisters or mother or father or children or farms, for My sake and for the gospel's sake, but that he will receive a hundred times as much now in the present age, houses and brothers and sisters and mothers and children and farms, along with persecutions; and in the age to come, eternal life.

The striking thing about this passage is the idea that Jesus is promising Peter that he will receive a hundred times as much as he gave up -- NOW, in the present age.

I don't really know how to make sense of this promise unless this age doesn't end when Jesus returns next time. Somehow, Peter is going to get a hundred times as much as he gave up in this age, even though he died sometime in the first century. There has to be a time period in which Peter gets to enjoy his hundredfold increase in this age.

And I don't take this as a metaphorical statement as if Jesus is speaking in hyperbole or "spiritually" because he says Peter will obtain his hundredfold increase "along with persecutions", which we know were actual and real.

I continue to wonder if "coming in Glory" is substantially greater than returning to earth to restore Israel and rule the nations from Jerusalem. I mean, maybe he does both.

Or perhaps Peter, Paul, Daniel, come back to life and rule on earth for Christ during a particular period in this age?

Just thinking out loud.

This age actually finishes at the return of Christ. That is the last day.

Sirus
Dec 7th 2008, 06:40 AM
Christ separating the remains (sheep/goats) of the tribulation in setting up his earthly kingdom reign in no way automatically suggests or demands an individual judgment of all people of all time. I don't struggle with Mat 25/kingdom of heaven passage at all because it doesn't concern me as I do not trust in a works based salvation or a salvation+works based salvation. I am saved by grace through faith alone, not of works. Mat 25 gives entrance to the kingdom of heaven, not God, based on works alone without any mention of faith. What does that have to do with me?

I have not said the JSC and GWT can't be one and the same judgment have I? No. I said Mat 25 is neither.

I'd like you to show that ALL judgment passages, especially Mat 25, reveal
(2) the destruction of this present world
(4) the absence of survivors
(5) the finality of the event (if you mean all things and time fulfilled)

You may want to start another thread with your other points, but this one is about Matthew 25. As I have shown, this is judgment day and all creation is found here both saved (the sheep) and lost (the goats). The righteous are rewarded the wicked are destroyed.That's not how it works. I only addressed your points and only asked you to back up what you said (2)(4)(5) with scripture. Replying with, 'that's how it is' is not showing

(2) the destruction of this present world
(4) the absence of survivors
(5) the finality of the event (if you mean all things and time fulfilled)
is revealed in ALL judgment passages, especially Mat 25

My heart's Desire
Dec 7th 2008, 06:41 AM
31When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

The first thing we should notice here is that it mentions Christ coming in all His glory and His angels with Him. This seems to be a clear reference to His second coming. I hope we can at least agree on that much. Then He sits upon His throne for judgment and all nations are gathered before Him. I hope we can also agree that this means all people are before Him at this time for judgment.



2 Cor 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

I
Being pre-mil, I believe the sheep/goat judgment is individuals. Of course, being premil, I also believe Christ returns not only with Angels but with His Church as well.

The verse in 2 Corinthians speaks of the judgment for rewards for the Church at the what is commonly known as the Bema seat. Salvation is not in question here.

Sirus
Dec 7th 2008, 06:48 AM
Christ separating the remains (sheep/goats) of the tribulation in setting up his earthly kingdom reign in no way automatically suggests or demands an individual judgment of all people of all time. I don't struggle with Mat 25/kingdom of heaven passage at all because it doesn't concern me as I do not trust in a works based salvation or a salvation+works based salvation. I am saved by grace through faith alone, not of works. Mat 25 gives entrance to the kingdom of heaven, not God, based on works alone without any mention of faith. What does that have to do with me?It has everything to do with you. We are saved by grace yes, but grace produces fruit. Without fruit there is no salvation. Mat 25 gives examples of salvation by grace evidenced by the fruit it bears. This is perfectly consistent with scripture.Yes, faith produces works, but that's not what Mat 25 says. Applying this kingdom of heaven, not God, parable to the church as you are, it would say....one of HIS own servants that had no works was cast into outer darkness

Mat 25:14 For the kingdom of heaven is as a man traveling into a far country, who called his own servants, and delivered unto them his goods.
.....
Mat 25:19 After a long time the lord of those servants cometh, and reckoneth with them.
........
Mat 25:30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

But according to the truth of scripture you posted above, this isn't possible because faith produces fruit, right? But then you said 'Without fruit there is no salvation' but we know the truth is without salvation there is no fruit. Was he a servant or not? If he was, he would have fruit, right?

In the parallel parable in Luke the servant was not cast into outer darkness and had all he had taken from him and it is the noble mans enemies that are slain.

Luk 19:24- And he said unto them that stood by, Take from him the pound, and give it to him that hath ten pounds. (And they said unto him, Lord, he hath ten pounds.) For I say unto you, That unto every one which hath shall be given; and from him that hath not, even that he hath shall be taken away from him. But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.

This is perfectly consistent with scripture that says we are saved by grace through faith alone without works and that even if the works we do have cannot go through the fire we will still be saved. This foundation of grace cannot be applied to Matthew 25. One must assume the servant really isn’t a servant. I don’t need to assume anything for my theology work without contradiction.

Sirus
Dec 7th 2008, 06:51 AM
The verse in 2 Corinthians speaks of the judgment for rewards for the Church at the what is commonly known as the Bema seat. Salvation is not in question here.Correct. Notice in parables, who the bride is is never in question. Who the guests are is in question.

third hero
Dec 7th 2008, 06:56 AM
Well,
Since we know that I am the true reason why this thread was created, I guess that I'll have to rebuff the amils, again. Now, with respect to our moderators, I will refrain from making the conparisons that I have made in the past, although I still stand by them.

Now. The Amils continue to discount the significance of one word, and that word is found in Matthew 25:32. That word is "nations".

When nations is used throughout scripture, it represents the peoples of the world.

By these were the isles of the Gentiles divided in their lands; every one after his tongue, after their families, in their nations. Genesis 10:5

This day will I begin to put the dread of thee and the fear of thee upon the nations [that are] under the whole heaven, who shall hear report of thee, and shall tremble, and be in anguish because of thee. Deuteronomy 2:25

Israel was to be separated from the nations. Israel got into trouble for following after "the nations". In truth, the most understood copncept in the entire Old Testament is the fact that when the term, "the nations", is written, the meaning to be applied is the nations of the earth.

The same goes for the New testament. Take a look at these scriptures, and tell me what they mean when they mention the word, "nations".

Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. -Matthew 24:4

And the gospel must first be published among all nations. Mark 13:10

And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; Luke 21:25

And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation; Acts 17:26

What do these scriptures say the term "nations" mean? It means the Gentiles, the nations of the people of this earth.

NOw, if all of the other scriptures in the Bible mention the term "nations" and defines it as the nations of this world, how can you change the definition of this term when you read Matthew 25:32?

This is just one of the reasons why Matthew 25:31-45 does not support the Amil POV. Jesus, after establishing His throne, as mentioned in verse 31, will sit down on His throne, and judge "the nations". I didn't write that. Matthew did.

On just this point alone, I rest my case. I do have others, but I think that the amils will have difficulty explaining away the significance of the word, nations.

DurbanDude
Dec 7th 2008, 07:23 AM
So, I believe Matthew 25:31-46 is clearly referring to a judgment that takes place when Christ returns, all people will be there and individuals will be judged at that time.
.


Here is another parable in the same chapter:

25:9 But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves.
25:10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.
25:11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.
25:12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not

This parable is also about the second coming , the lesson is that when the bridegroom comes we have to be prepared. If you insist on getting a sense of timing from parables, then in this parable you would have the 5 well-prepared virgins (the saints) going into the marriage when the bridegroom comes (the second coming), and then only afterwards the other virgins (ungodly) are shut out. If I insisted that we have to get a sense of timing from parables (I don't) then I would say that this parable supports the fact that the ungodly survive the second coming but are shut out from the resurrection and destiny of the saints.

I honestly don't think these parables were supposed to give an exact sense of timing , but all three parables of Matthew 25 are a warning of the destiny of the two groups of people , a warning to stay prepared.

Zechariah 14 is a chapter without symbolism, yet amills translate it symbolically.
Matthew 25 is a chapter full of parables and symbolism, yet amills choose which parables they interpret with precise sense of timing; and in which ones we must ignore the sense of timing.

Its all pretty random to me, if something disagrees with your doctrine just state that its symbolic of something else.

RevLogos
Dec 7th 2008, 04:10 PM
Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. -Matthew 24:4

And the gospel must first be published among all nations. Mark 13:10

And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; Luke 21:25

And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation; Acts 17:26

What do these scriptures say the term "nations" mean? It means the Gentiles, the nations of the people of this earth.

On just this point alone, I rest my case.

Don't rest your case quite yet. The Greek word ethnos can and does mean the Gentiles sometimes but not every time. It can also mean all peoples. One must make that determination from context. In the examples you cite, nations can mean all peoples, not just Gentiles.

Mat 24:4 (is actually 24:9) Jesus was hated where first? Doesn't necessarily refer to Gentile nations only.
Mark 13:10 The Gospel was brought to who first? NOT the Gentiles. It wasn't until Peter's vision just before he saved Cornelius in Acts 10 that the apostles were told to bring the message to the Gentiles.
Luke 21:25 talks about the distress affecting the entire earth before the arrival of the Son of Man.
Act 17:26 talks about Adam, from who all people came, not just Gentiles.

There is no fixed rule that says ethos must be Gentile nations only. There are other cases where nations more clearly refers to Gentiles only.

So it's actually quite easy to make the case that Mat 25:32 refers to all peoples. And I do not see anywhere in the Gospels where Jesus says the Jews will be judged separately from the Gentiles.

Joh 5:25 I tell you the truth, a time is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear will live.

John 6 makes clear there is one judgment several times. John 17:21,22,23 Jesus makes clear 3 times we are "one".

Raybob
Dec 7th 2008, 06:23 PM
Being pre-mil, I believe the sheep/goat judgment is individuals. Of course, being premil, I also believe Christ returns not only with Angels but with His Church as well.

What you are saying makes it sounds like the Church won't be the sheep that Jesus seperates from the goats. I wonder who these other sheep are and when they get resurrected if they aren't His church?


The verse in 2 Corinthians speaks of the judgment for rewards for the Church at the what is commonly known as the Bema seat. Salvation is not in question here.

"Bema seat" simply means "judgment seat" as in Great Throne Judgment. In John 19:13 Pilate sat on a "Bema" seat (in the Greek) when he judged Jesus, remember.

Raybob

BroRog
Dec 7th 2008, 06:41 PM
This age actually finishes at the return of Christ. That is the last day.

Care to comment on the scriptures I presented?

BroRog
Dec 7th 2008, 06:46 PM
On just this point alone, I rest my case. I do have others, but I think that the amils will have difficulty explaining away the significance of the word, nations.

Since I am still thinking this through, can you help clarify why the term "nations" is significant? Are you suggesting that Jesus is judging the Gentiles as opposed to the Jews here?

wpm
Dec 8th 2008, 12:16 AM
Well,
Since we know that I am the true reason why this thread was created, I guess that I'll have to rebuff the amils, again. Now, with respect to our moderators, I will refrain from making the conparisons that I have made in the past, although I still stand by them.

Now. The Amils continue to discount the significance of one word, and that word is found in Matthew 25:32. That word is "nations".

When nations is used throughout scripture, it represents the peoples of the world.

By these were the isles of the Gentiles divided in their lands; every one after his tongue, after their families, in their nations. Genesis 10:5

This day will I begin to put the dread of thee and the fear of thee upon the nations [that are] under the whole heaven, who shall hear report of thee, and shall tremble, and be in anguish because of thee. Deuteronomy 2:25

Israel was to be separated from the nations. Israel got into trouble for following after "the nations". In truth, the most understood copncept in the entire Old Testament is the fact that when the term, "the nations", is written, the meaning to be applied is the nations of the earth.

The same goes for the New testament. Take a look at these scriptures, and tell me what they mean when they mention the word, "nations".

Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. -Matthew 24:4

And the gospel must first be published among all nations. Mark 13:10

And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; Luke 21:25

And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation; Acts 17:26

What do these scriptures say the term "nations" mean? It means the Gentiles, the nations of the people of this earth.

NOw, if all of the other scriptures in the Bible mention the term "nations" and defines it as the nations of this world, how can you change the definition of this term when you read Matthew 25:32?

This is just one of the reasons why Matthew 25:31-45 does not support the Amil POV. Jesus, after establishing His throne, as mentioned in verse 31, will sit down on His throne, and judge "the nations". I didn't write that. Matthew did.

On just this point alone, I rest my case. I do have others, but I think that the amils will have difficulty explaining away the significance of the word, nations.

Actually quite the opposite. You haven't actually addressed any of the arguments presented here that rebut your theory. There are several reasons why your reasoning on this should be challenged.

Firstly, who actually are the ‘sheep nations’ or ‘goat nations’? Could Premils name one righteous nation? Of course not! There is no such thing.

Secondly, when Christ instructed the disciples to “go and make disciples of all nations, baptising” he didn’t mean that they could actually make a disciple of any given nation and/or baptise a whole physical nation. No. He meant that the advance of the Gospel and its accompanying discipleship would include all nations.

Thirdly, When we analyse the detail of the sheep and goats parable we see that it must surely be a judgment of individuals and not nations. For instance, how could a specific nation possibly visit a sick person (v 43)? How could a nation possibly visit a prisoner in prison (v 43)? What is more, how then could a nation face eternal damnation for not performing such an impossible act?Such a hypothesis is totally illogical and completely contrary to the repeated scriptural truth that all men will account for their lives and actions when Christ comes. This judgment, like every other in Scripture,is an all-consummating general judgment of the deeds of all mankind within “all nations” and a testing of their individual works. What the phrase “all nations” simply and constantly indicates in Scripture is “the whole world.”

Fourthly, the phrase “sheep nations” is an extra-biblical term invented by some to fit their notion of a temporal period preceding the Coming of the Lord. Scriptures knows nothing of such a term. The usage of the word "nations" simply speaks of people of all nationalities (nothing more and nothing less). It is speaking of individuals from among all nations rather than the individual nation as a whole.

Fifthly, since when is our salvation dependant upon our passport?

Sixthly, you need to see that the result of this judgment is either "everlasting fire" (Matthew 25:41) or alternatively "everlasting punishment" (Matthew 25:46). This is proof this cannot be whole nations.

Conclusion

The Premil view conflicts with this, whereas the Amil view beautifully correlates. Whatever way you approach this reading it cannot fit the Premil paradigm. Your refusal to address the counter arguments are evidence enough that it doesn't fit. I believe Premil struggles with passage after passage like this that reveal a climactic Coming of Christ.

Nihil Obstat
Dec 8th 2008, 12:30 AM
You are totally missing the point. This is the great day when the individual saved and unsaved are ushered either into heaven or into hell. That is the sentences. This cannot in any way be the judgment of a nation or nations. No way!!! Your comparison is therefore totally inadmissible. This is the final general judgment. It reinforces the Amil understanding as the Op suggested of a climactic end to the world when Jesus comes.

You need to see that the result of this judgment is either "everlasting fire" (Matthew 25:41) or alternatively "everlasting punishment" (Matthew 25:46). This cannot be nations.

The destruction of nations that you mentioned to support your position were never to determine their spiritual position on Judgment Day but simply to remove them from this scene of time.

I still disagree with you, but my point is that it simply doesn't matter if it is nations or individuals here, because it is the cross that is being spoken of here, and not that of His second coming or the great white throne judgment. In a secondary spiritual sort of way this may refer to the future, but He was definitely speaking about His crucifixion here. Not only does He use "seated on the throne of His glory" synonymously with "nailed to a tree" in 19:28, but when He finished all these sayings, He reminds His four closest friends once more that the Son of Man will be crucified in just a matter of days (26:2). Jesus is saying in surprising ways that everlasting glory is found only at the cross, and that the cross causes eternal division (cp. 10:34-39). - Astro

wpm
Dec 8th 2008, 12:30 AM
Here is another parable in the same chapter:

25:9 But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves.
25:10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.
25:11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.
25:12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not

This parable is also about the second coming , the lesson is that when the bridegroom comes we have to be prepared. If you insist on getting a sense of timing from parables, then in this parable you would have the 5 well-prepared virgins (the saints) going into the marriage when the bridegroom comes (the second coming), and then only afterwards the other virgins (ungodly) are shut out. If I insisted that we have to get a sense of timing from parables (I don't) then I would say that this parable supports the fact that the ungodly survive the second coming but are shut out from the resurrection and destiny of the saints.

I honestly don't think these parables were supposed to give an exact sense of timing , but all three parables of Matthew 25 are a warning of the destiny of the two groups of people , a warning to stay prepared.

Zechariah 14 is a chapter without symbolism, yet amills translate it symbolically.
Matthew 25 is a chapter full of parables and symbolism, yet amills choose which parables they interpret with precise sense of timing; and in which ones we must ignore the sense of timing.

Its all pretty random to me, if something disagrees with your doctrine just state that its symbolic of something else.

Quite the opposite. The parable of the virgins actually agrees totally with the climactic nature of the Coming of Christ. Men are either caught up or caught on. Being ready means rescue, being locked outside means destruction. Interpreting Scripture with Scripture would assist you here.

Jesus said in Matthew 25:6,10, “at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him …and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.”

The solemn side of this parable is the awful plight of the five foolish virgins who had no oil in their lamps. Like the wicked that were left in Noah’s day, the religious will cry, when its too late, “Lord, Lord, open to us.” The only problem is, it is too late. The solemn cry will come from the Master, “Verily I say unto you, I know you not” (vv 11-12). This is what Jesus says to the wicked at the final judgment. He isn't saying: 'welcome to the Premil millennium for another chance'. They are damned and doomed for all eternity.

The reality of the five foolish virgins was they had no real relationship with God – it was all outward. They were unknown to the Lord Jesus Christ.

The crucial lesson of this parable is found in Luke 13:13:“Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh”

The Lord states,“Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are: Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets. But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity. There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”

Oh what an awful day that will be, when the wicked find themselves locked outside of God’s ark – the Lord Jesus Christ. Damned without hope or without Christ. This reminds me of the actual day that Noah entered into the ark in Genesis 7:16. It solemnly tells us of Noah and the ark door, “and the LORD shut him in.” What happened to those locked outside. They were totally and imediately destroyed.

Jesus said, "the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all” (Luke 17:27). The Lord goes from "days" (plural) to "day" to show that he is talking of an individual day of destruction. Christ reinforces the fact that it was an individual day by also using the days/days contrast re Sodom's judgement, He emphasises, “the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all” (v29). And then concludes, “Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed” (v 30).

DurbanDude
Dec 8th 2008, 06:50 AM
Quite the opposite. The parable of the virgins actually agrees totally with the climactic nature of the Coming of Christ. Men are either caught up or caught on. Being ready means rescue, being locked outside means destruction. Interpreting Scripture with Scripture would assist you here.

Jesus said in Matthew 25:6,10, “at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him …and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.”

The solemn side of this parable is the awful plight of the five foolish virgins who had no oil in their lamps. Like the wicked that were left in Noah’s day, the religious will cry, when its too late, “Lord, Lord, open to us.” The only problem is, it is too late. The solemn cry will come from the Master, “Verily I say unto you, I know you not” (vv 11-12). This is what Jesus says to the wicked at the final judgment. He isn't saying: 'welcome to the Premil millennium for another chance'. They are damned and doomed for all eternity.

The reality of the five foolish virgins was they had no real relationship with God – it was all outward. They were unknown to the Lord Jesus Christ.



This is what I am saying, that those foolish virgins are shut out , doomed to eternity, will never have a real relationship with God. They don't belong to the camp of the saints , they still exist after the second coming to be able to be knocking on the door though. To say that to be "shut out" means destruction, rather than being shutout is reading your amill interpretation into a parable that should have no sense of timing , its just a warning us to be ready like the other parables of Matthew 25. But if you want to take the timing literally then the "foolish virgins" will be "shut out" but not destroyed on that day, because the wording has two different meanings.


We both agree that all those armies gathered in Jerusalem will be destroyed on that day, and there will be further destruction throughout the earth, and the destiny of destruction of the ungodly will be sealed on that day. But there you go again making definite timing conclusions from parables and comparisons.

And yet you ignore the definite timing of very literal passages that have no symbolism like Zechariah 14, these verses speak of the literal survival of heathen nations after the Messiah comes to reign in Jerusalem.

You spiritualise the literal passages , and literalise the symbolic parables.

Raybob
Dec 8th 2008, 07:54 AM
This is what I am saying, that those foolish virgins are shut out , doomed to eternity, will never have a real relationship with God. They don't belong to the camp of the saints , they still exist after the second coming to be able to be knocking on the door though. To say that to be "shut out" means destruction, rather than being shutout is reading your amill interpretation into a parable that should have no sense of timing , its just a warning us to be ready like the other parables of Matthew 25. But if you want to take the timing literally then the "foolish virgins" will be "shut out" but not destroyed on that day, because the wording has two different meanings.


If they are shut out "doomed to eternity" as you say, where will they spend that eternity? Aren't these 5 foolish virgins also represented in Luke 13?

Luk 13:26-28 Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets. (27) But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity. (28) There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.

Raybob

DurbanDude
Dec 8th 2008, 09:46 AM
If they are shut out "doomed to eternity" as you say, where will they spend that eternity? Aren't these 5 foolish virgins also represented in Luke 13?

Luk 13:26-28 Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets. (27) But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity. (28) There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.

Raybob

To answer your question, those that survive will spend their mortal lives here on earth, and then be resurrected at the end of the 1000 years when all their deeds will be judged and they will be cast into the lake of fire. That is what the bible says.

Luke 13 is similar, that's what I am saying, there will be weeping and deep regret at the beginning of the millenium. Do you think that the survivors will be happy when they know that they are shut out and when they see the resurrected saints reigning over them for 1000 years? Of course not. My view and the amill view are very similar in this regard, the eternal destiny is established at the second coming. And then on judgment day they will be cast into the lake of fire.

wpm
Dec 8th 2008, 05:11 PM
This is what I am saying, that those foolish virgins are shut out , doomed to eternity, will never have a real relationship with God. They don't belong to the camp of the saints , they still exist after the second coming to be able to be knocking on the door though. To say that to be "shut out" means destruction, rather than being shutout is reading your amill interpretation into a parable that should have no sense of timing , its just a warning us to be ready like the other parables of Matthew 25. But if you want to take the timing literally then the "foolish virgins" will be "shut out" but not destroyed on that day, because the wording has two different meanings.


We both agree that all those armies gathered in Jerusalem will be destroyed on that day, and there will be further destruction throughout the earth, and the destiny of destruction of the ungodly will be sealed on that day. But there you go again making definite timing conclusions from parables and comparisons.

And yet you ignore the definite timing of very literal passages that have no symbolism like Zechariah 14, these verses speak of the literal survival of heathen nations after the Messiah comes to reign in Jerusalem.

You spiritualise the literal passages , and literalise the symbolic parables.

I have been using all the relevant passages relating to the shutting out of the wicked to show you that this is a mirror, in Jesus opinion (and that is good enough for me), of Noah's day. How many wicked survived in Noah's day? None! They likewise banged on the closed door. They likewise were swept away in the wrath of God. You reward these Christ-rejecters by allowing them to inherit the kingdom with the glorified saints. This just doesn't add up.

To be honest, it is Premil that is continually importing 1,000 yrs into passage after passage relating to the Coming of Christ and the resulting resurrection/judgment. Amils just take all these climactic passages the way they read. They are final and all-consummating. There is nothing that indicates that these rebels are any different than the foolish procrastinators in Noah’s day who cried similarly when the door was locked and were immediately destroyed. Why would Jesus then usher them into a future millennium to pollute it for 1,000 yrs? What is the purpose for your millennium? What profit would it be to usher them into a future golden age? This doesn’t make sense. It is you that must insert a millennium into this. I don’t have to defend anything other than the passage says. It is as if Rev 20 governs your every consideration of Second Coming passages. If you were to set it aside for a moment you would probably arrive at the same conclusion that many of us did that our Premillenniumism was built upon one shaky interpretation of one lone passage, located in the most obscure book in the Bible. You need to insert 1,000 yrs into them all, when it is clearly not to be seen. If Scripture is silent then we need to be.

Jesus confirmed in Matthew 25:10-13: “And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut. Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us. But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not. Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.”

Jesus said of this same climactic day in Luke 13:24-29: “Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are: Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets. But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity. There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.And they shall come from the east, and from the west, and from the north, and from the south, and shall sit down in the kingdom of God.”

Let us continue on in the Lord's message. Jesus said in Matthew 25:14, 19-30 on the parable of the talents, “For the kingdom of heaven is as a man travelling into a far country, who called his own servants, and delivered unto them his goods.”

Here Christ is speaking of the intra-Advent period.

And continues, “After a long time the lord of those servants cometh, and reckoneth with them. And so he that had received five talents came and brought other five talents, saying, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me five talents: behold, I have gained beside them five talents more. His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord. He also that had received two talents came and said, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me two talents: behold, I have gained two other talents beside them. His lord said unto him, Well done, good and faithful servant; thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord."

Finally, "Then he which had received the one talent came … His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed: Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury. And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”

Here again, both the righteous and the wicked receive their judgment at the all-consummating Second Advent of the Lord – “at my coming.” Not simply the wicked, but the righteous servants are brought before the bar of God to account for their talents!!! When? At Christ's Coming.

Raybob
Dec 8th 2008, 05:45 PM
...Luke 13 is similar, that's what I am saying, there will be weeping and deep regret at the beginning of the millenium. Do you think that the survivors will be happy when they know that they are shut out and when they see the resurrected saints reigning over them for 1000 years? ...

How would all those "name only" Christians mentioned in Luke 13 (which would include every century of Christians) even know about the 1000 years if, according to you, they won't even be resurrected until after the 1000 years are over?:hmm:

Raybob

John146
Dec 8th 2008, 07:33 PM
That's what I said, but we aren't talking about today are we? We are talking about after Christ appears therefore we are talking about after the resurrection.

It is assumed by many that the separation of the sheep and goats is the judgment seat of Christ for believers, but no scripture says any such thing. In fact scripture is not totally clear when that occurs and whether it happens corporately or individually. There are no goats or tares in the kingdom of God. That's kingdom of heaven. Matthew 25 is a judgment of what is left after the tribulation. Plain and simple. If the gathering of the nations is for all time then it would be the Great White Throne Judgment but since we know that is not until the end we have to conclude this is the King setting up His earthly kingdom with the remains of the tribulation where resurrected believers rule and reign with him.So, unbelievers will be cast into everlasting fire at two separate times? Why does scripture repeatedly speak of a singular day of judgment if there were actually going to be two days of judgment separated by about a thousand years?

John146
Dec 8th 2008, 07:45 PM
Here is another parable in the same chapter:

25:9 But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves.
25:10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.
25:11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.
25:12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not

This parable is also about the second coming , the lesson is that when the bridegroom comes we have to be prepared. If you insist on getting a sense of timing from parables, then in this parable you would have the 5 well-prepared virgins (the saints) going into the marriage when the bridegroom comes (the second coming), and then only afterwards the other virgins (ungodly) are shut out. If I insisted that we have to get a sense of timing from parables (I don't) then I would say that this parable supports the fact that the ungodly survive the second coming but are shut out from the resurrection and destiny of the saints.No, it supports that they are not allowed to inherit the kingdom of God. Other scripture shows what happens to them: they are cast into "a furnace of fire", "everlasting fire", "the lake of fire". Those are all referring to the same thing and are consistent with what is taught will occur on judgment day.


I honestly don't think these parables were supposed to give an exact sense of timing , but all three parables of Matthew 25 are a warning of the destiny of the two groups of people , a warning to stay prepared.It doesn't surprise me that a premil would try to say that these passages don't give any sense of timing. I don't buy that idea at all.


Zechariah 14 is a chapter without symbolism, yet amills translate it symbolically.Wrong. The whole book of Zechariah is a mix of symbolism and literal things. What we have to do is figure out which is which. Unless you think a verse like Zechariah 13:7 is speaking of literal sheep?


Matthew 25 is a chapter full of parables and symbolism, yet amills choose which parables they interpret with precise sense of timing; and in which ones we must ignore the sense of timing.Everyone, including premils, has to determine when scripture is meant to be symbolic and when it is meant to be literal. You lean heavily towards interpeting most scripture literally. I think that is a mistake on your part.


Its all pretty random to me, if something disagrees with your doctrine just state that its symbolic of something else.Scripture has to be interpreted according to the type of writing that it is. Amils simply try to interpret things symbolically when it calls for it and literally when it calls for that. These accusations you are making about the way we interpret scripture are nothing more than empty insults. You'd rather throw out insults than show us how Matthew 25:31-46 fits with your view.

John146
Dec 8th 2008, 07:58 PM
Well,
Since we know that I am the true reason why this thread was created, I guess that I'll have to rebuff the amils, again. Now, with respect to our moderators, I will refrain from making the conparisons that I have made in the past, although I still stand by them.

Now. The Amils continue to discount the significance of one word, and that word is found in Matthew 25:32. That word is "nations".

When nations is used throughout scripture, it represents the peoples of the world.

By these were the isles of the Gentiles divided in their lands; every one after his tongue, after their families, in their nations. Genesis 10:5

This day will I begin to put the dread of thee and the fear of thee upon the nations [that are] under the whole heaven, who shall hear report of thee, and shall tremble, and be in anguish because of thee. Deuteronomy 2:25

Israel was to be separated from the nations. Israel got into trouble for following after "the nations". In truth, the most understood copncept in the entire Old Testament is the fact that when the term, "the nations", is written, the meaning to be applied is the nations of the earth.

The same goes for the New testament. Take a look at these scriptures, and tell me what they mean when they mention the word, "nations".

Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. -Matthew 24:4

And the gospel must first be published among all nations. Mark 13:10

And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; Luke 21:25

And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation; Acts 17:26

What do these scriptures say the term "nations" mean? It means the Gentiles, the nations of the people of this earth.

NOw, if all of the other scriptures in the Bible mention the term "nations" and defines it as the nations of this world, how can you change the definition of this term when you read Matthew 25:32?

This is just one of the reasons why Matthew 25:31-45 does not support the Amil POV. Jesus, after establishing His throne, as mentioned in verse 31, will sit down on His throne, and judge "the nations". I didn't write that. Matthew did.

On just this point alone, I rest my case. I do have others, but I think that the amils will have difficulty explaining away the significance of the word, nations.We don't have to explain away anything since we know that the sheep and goats are clearly individuals who will be taken and separated from all nations into two groups. That's what you are not willing to acknowledge and this leads you to interpret Matthew 25:31-46 in such a way that it contradicts a great deal of other scripture that says individuals will receive eternal rewards or sentences on judgment day and not nations.

When are you going to make your case that nations will receive eternal sentences at His return? How convenient of you to reference "Matthew 25:31-45" rather than Matthew 25:31-46, as if verse 46 is not related to the rest. You have entire nations made up of unbelievers without immortal bodies inheriting eternal life in the kingdom prepared for them from the foundation of the world (Matt 25:34,46). Can you tell me where else scripture teaches such a thing?

John146
Dec 8th 2008, 08:22 PM
Christ separating the remains (sheep/goats) of the tribulation in setting up his earthly kingdom reign in no way automatically suggests or demands an individual judgment of all people of all time. I don't struggle with Mat 25/kingdom of heaven passage at all because it doesn't concern me as I do not trust in a works based salvation or a salvation+works based salvation. I am saved by grace through faith alone, not of works. Mat 25 gives entrance to the kingdom of heaven, not God, based on works alone without any mention of faith. What does that have to do with me?I have not said the JSC and GWT can't be one and the same judgment have I? No. I said Mat 25 is neither.Are you not willing to acknowledge that people are given eternal rewards or sentences in the Matthew 25:31-46 judgment? Also, the passage speaks about the sheep inheriting the kingdom prepared for them from the foundation of the world. That kingdom was prepared for all believers because it is eternal.

You seem to be saying that the passage can't be one that is portraying the final judgment day only because you seem to think that if it was then it could be used to support the idea that we are saved by works. If we are true Christians then we will be led by the Spirit to do the things spoken of in that passage. It isn't that those things are done in and of ourselves and that is how we get to inherit the kingdom. No. If we have true faith, then we will do those things because the Spirit leads us to do those things. Our works reflect our faith. Everyone is known by their fruit. That is why the judgment can be portrayed as one of works because only the works done through the power of the Spirit mean anything to God. If we have done those things then that is evidence that we were truly saved and born of the Spirit. God is not impressed when people try to show how good they are with their supposedly good works that they do complete of their own power. He knows people's hearts and their motives. Jesus will tell those people that He never knew them.

John146
Dec 8th 2008, 08:26 PM
Being pre-mil, I believe the sheep/goat judgment is individuals. Of course, being premil, I also believe Christ returns not only with Angels but with His Church as well.

The verse in 2 Corinthians speaks of the judgment for rewards for the Church at the what is commonly known as the Bema seat. Salvation is not in question here.Salvation isn't in question in Matthew 25:31-46, either. Everyone's destiny is already determined before that. That is how the sheep and goats can be separated into two groups even before the eternal rewards or sentences are given out.

third hero
Dec 9th 2008, 03:55 AM
We don't have to explain away anything since we know that the sheep and goats are clearly individuals who will be taken and separated from all nations into two groups. That's what you are not willing to acknowledge and this leads you to interpret Matthew 25:31-46 in such a way that it contradicts a great deal of other scripture that says individuals will receive eternal rewards or sentences on judgment day and not nations.

Prove it. I have proven that Mathew 25:31-45 refers to the heathen, the nations of the world. Prove me wrong, and here's a hint. Just saying "we all know" proves nothing, which is clearly the case here. Evidence please?


When are you going to make your case that nations will receive eternal sentences at His return? How convenient of you to reference "Matthew 25:31-45" rather than Matthew 25:31-46, as if verse 46 is not related to the rest. You have entire nations made up of unbelievers without immortal bodies inheriting eternal life in the kingdom prepared for them from the foundation of the world (Matt 25:34,46). Can you tell me where else scripture teaches such a thing?


Like I have said before, verse 46 is not limited to Matthew 25:31-45, but all inclusive, which includes the judgment of the virgins, who happen to be Believers. Hence, in one sentence, both parables are mentioned, the righteous judgment (the ten virgins), and the wicked, (the nations), and by doing so, sums up the entire chapter.

Now, will you please attempt to use scripture to disprove what I have established using scripture?

My heart's Desire
Dec 9th 2008, 04:12 AM
What you are saying makes it sounds like the Church won't be the sheep that Jesus seperates from the goats. I wonder who these other sheep are and when they get resurrected if they aren't His church?



"Bema seat" simply means "judgment seat" as in Great Throne Judgment. In John 19:13 Pilate sat on a "Bema" seat (in the Greek) when he judged Jesus, remember.

Raybob
You are right. The sheep are not the church. The sheep are those who have been saved during the tribulation period well after the Church of this age have been caught up and are with Christ.


Matthew 10:5-6
These twelve Jesus sent out after instructing them: " Do not go in the way of the Gentiles, and do not entere any city of the Samaritans;
6. But rather go to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

John 10: 15-16 even as the Father knows Me and I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep.
16. I have OTHER sheep, which are NOT of THIS fold; I must bring them also, and they will hear My voice; and they will become ONE Flock with ONE shepherd.

There are more than one group of sheep.

And still believe the Bema is different than THE Great Throne Judgment. Believers will not be before the Great White Throne Judgment.

third hero
Dec 9th 2008, 04:19 AM
Don't rest your case quite yet. The Greek word ethnos can and does mean the Gentiles sometimes but not every time. It can also mean all peoples. One must make that determination from context. In the examples you cite, nations can mean all peoples, not just Gentiles.

Mat 24:4 (is actually 24:9) Jesus was hated where first? Doesn't necessarily refer to Gentile nations only.
Mark 13:10 The Gospel was brought to who first? NOT the Gentiles. It wasn't until Peter's vision just before he saved Cornelius in Acts 10 that the apostles were told to bring the message to the Gentiles.
Luke 21:25 talks about the distress affecting the entire earth before the arrival of the Son of Man.
Act 17:26 talks about Adam, from who all people came, not just Gentiles.

There is no fixed rule that says ethos must be Gentile nations only. There are other cases where nations more clearly refers to Gentiles only.

So it's actually quite easy to make the case that Mat 25:32 refers to all peoples. And I do not see anywhere in the Gospels where Jesus says the Jews will be judged separately from the Gentiles.

Joh 5:25 I tell you the truth, a time is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear will live.

John 6 makes clear there is one judgment several times. John 17:21,22,23 Jesus makes clear 3 times we are "one".

Does any of these examples omit the Gentiles? Do any of these examples disprove the fact that the term "nations" means the kingdoms of this world? THe answer is no.

In fact, the NT world goes further, to include the Isrelite nation that rejected Jesus. This fact does not alter my conclusions whatsoever. all who are unrepentant, unsaved, and undestroyed after the Lord establishes His throne on earth are judged, based on their treatment of the saints during the Great Tribulation. Take a look again at Matthew 25:40. Look t what Lord Jesus bases his judgments on.

Let's go one step further. Let's see what Lord Jesus sys to those whom He calls "sheep".

Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

1. For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:

2. Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.

Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed [thee]? or thirsty, and gave [thee] drink? When saw we thee a stranger, and took [thee] in? or naked, and clothed [thee]? Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?

And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done [it] unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done [it] unto me. -Matthew 25:34-40

Now, where is the "faith" in this judgment? Who are the "my brethern" that the King talks about? If this is the separation of believers from non, tell me where is the faith question? Where is the Book of Life? Where is the judgment according to the individual actions? These things are clearly missing, as this is not the LAST DAY judgment that Amils want to proclaim.

Why isn't faith mentioned in this judgment? Because the age of faith is gone once the Lord picks up those faithful believers who underwent the Great Tribulation.

Who are the "least of my brethern" that the King bases His judgment on? Those who are the King's brethern are the same people of faith, the believers. Those who treat the Believers kindly are given mercy, and even called righteous. Those who did not treat the Believers kindly are hurled into the Lake.

This is Matthew 25:31-45. After verses 1-30, where Lord Jesus deals directly with the judgment of the believers, the Lord then turns His attention onto the nations. This is why Matthew explicitly stated this:

When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth [his] sheep from the goats: Matthew 25:31-32

When the Lord comes, He retrieves His people. After He does this, He shall sit upon His throne, and the nations shall be gathered to Him. The nations are not the same as the Believers, and Matthew 24:31 proves it.

And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. MAtthew 24:31

If the writer, Matthew, wanted 25:32 to include the saints, he would have used the same term he used in the previous chapter, the elect. But the term, "the nations" is used, and the importance of that should not be swept under a rug.

Now, I would love to see how someone can disprove that, knowing this:

1. The term nations is used, and the Lord is judging the nations
2. The Lord bases His judgment on the treatment of His brethern.

third hero
Dec 9th 2008, 04:24 AM
You are right. The sheep are not the church. The sheep are those who have been saved during the tribulation period well after the Church of this age have been caught up and are with Christ.

And still believe the Bema is different than THE Great Throne Judgment. Believers will not be before the Great White Throne Judgment.

I hate to break this to you, but according to Matthew 24:31, the believers that undergo the Great Tribulation are collected at the end of the Great Tribulation, and as such, are included as part of the Tribulation saints that are victorious over the Beast. No righteous mortal, att he time of the Lord's return, will remain mortal. They, like Paul states in both 1 corinthians 15:51 and 1 Thessalonians 4:15-18, will be changed from corruptible bodies to incorruptible ones. They are not left behind.

Now, the only ones left on the earth are the heathen nations, and they shall be judged, with the vast majority of them suffering the Lake of Fire, and the rest spared their lives, based on their treatment of the Tribulation saints. (Daniel 7:11-12; Matt 24:29-31; 25:31-45; 1 Thes 4:13-18; Rev 19-20:10)

Sirus
Dec 9th 2008, 04:57 AM
So, unbelievers will be cast into everlasting fire at two separate times? Why does scripture repeatedly speak of a singular day of judgment if there were actually going to be two days of judgment separated by about a thousand years?Aren't unbelievers going to hell every day right now? Why can't they then? The term outer darkness is only used in connection with His return.

1) Mat 8:8-12 He said to the centurion "I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel" to whom He was still preaching the kingdom to and not to Gentiles. He said;
Mat 8:11-2 And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven. But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

2) The guest at the wedding is not the bride, they are guest (both good and bad) that the 144,000 preached the kingdom to. A guest without a robe was cast into outer darkness.
Mat 22:12-14 And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless. Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. For many are called, but few are chosen.

3)Mat 25:14-30 One of HIS OWN SERVANTS did nothing and was cast into outer darkness.

It is time for the feast my friend. Only worthy guests are welcome to sit down at the table with the bridegroom and bride. Others are cast out into darkness while the King of Light reigns in His glorious kingdom with His bride. Judgment comes later. I have never said there are two judgments.



Are you not willing to acknowledge that people are given eternal rewards or sentences in the Matthew 25:31-46 judgmentNo. No eternal rewards are given here as we see with believers in the NT. Only entrance to the kingdom is given.



Also, the passage speaks about the sheep inheriting the kingdom prepared for them from the foundation of the world. That kingdom was prepared for all believers because it is eternal.No it is not eternal. Jesus turns the kingdom over to the Father, most likely at the end of the 1000 year reign. Satan is loosed and many on earth with him rise up against the King and the saints and the Father devours them with fire. Then there will be a new heaven and new earth, behold I make all things new, I do a new thing.



You seem to be saying that the passage can't be one that is portraying the final judgment day only because you seem to think that if it was then it could be used to support the idea that we are saved by works. If we are true Christians then we will be led by the Spirit to do the things spoken of in that passage. It isn't that those things are done in and of ourselves and that is how we get to inherit the kingdom. No. If we have true faith, then we will do those things because the Spirit leads us to do those things. Our works reflect our faith. Everyone is known by their fruit. That is why the judgment can be portrayed as one of works because only the works done through the power of the Spirit mean anything to God. If we have done those things then that is evidence that we were truly saved and born of the Spirit. God is not impressed when people try to show how good they are with their supposedly good works that they do complete of their own power. He knows people's hearts and their motives. Jesus will tell those people that He never knew them.Right! So why attempt to apply this to born again believers? You are applying an impossibility to the impossible. That's futile.

My heart's Desire
Dec 9th 2008, 05:07 AM
I hate to break this to you, but according to Matthew 24:31, the believers that undergo the Great Tribulation are collected at the end of the Great Tribulation, and as such, are included as part of the Tribulation saints that are victorious over the Beast. No righteous mortal, att he time of the Lord's return, will remain mortal. They, like Paul states in both 1 corinthians 15:51 and 1 Thessalonians 4:15-18, will be changed from corruptible bodies to incorruptible ones. They are not left behind.

Now, the only ones left on the earth are the heathen nations, and they shall be judged, with the vast majority of them suffering the Lake of Fire, and the rest spared their lives, based on their treatment of the Tribulation saints. (Daniel 7:11-12; Matt 24:29-31; 25:31-45; 1 Thes 4:13-18; Rev 19-20:10)

We could argue this but after the Tribulation, there is the 1000 yr reign of Christ on the earth, the Kingdom these sheep are ushered into. The Throne judgment is after the 1000 yrs are over.
Regardless, the believers of the Trib are different than the Church which had been raptured and given new bodies at least 7 years before.

wpm
Dec 9th 2008, 05:13 AM
Prove it. I have proven that Mathew 25:31-45 refers to the heathen, the nations of the world. Prove me wrong, and here's a hint. Just saying "we all know" proves nothing, which is clearly the case here. Evidence please?

Like I have said before, verse 46 is not limited to Matthew 25:31-45, but all inclusive, which includes the judgment of the virgins, who happen to be Believers. Hence, in one sentence, both parables are mentioned, the righteous judgment (the ten virgins), and the wicked, (the nations), and by doing so, sums up the entire chapter.

Now, will you please attempt to use scripture to disprove what I have established using scripture?


Now, the only ones left on the earth are the heathen nations, and they shall be judged, with the vast majority of them suffering the Lake of Fire, and the rest spared their lives, based on their treatment of the Tribulation saints. (Daniel 7:11-12; Matt 24:29-31; 25:31-45; 1 Thes 4:13-18; Rev 19-20:10)

Are you saying the sheep and goats are all wicked?

ross3421
Dec 9th 2008, 05:39 AM
So, unbelievers will be cast into everlasting fire at two separate times? Why does scripture repeatedly speak of a singular day of judgment if there were actually going to be two days of judgment separated by about a thousand years?


John 146 is right. Believers and unbelievers are raised and judged the same day, the last day. Are we saying that the unbelievers hang around in heaven for 1000 years? I hope not.

Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Joh 12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

There is no 1000 years apart from these events. The 1000 years are not literal but a metaphor which in fact most of us has used as well. John could have used a year, 100 years or whatever in describing these events. Why does John use this as a metaphor? Notice that the events which he is describing take place not in this relm so I ask .... is there measured time in heaven or in Hell. Why in Rev does John say "about a half hour" is it becuase he does not know exactly or perhaps he was estimating the time as he could not measure it precisely?

A look into the events of chapter 20 will show these events happening BEFORE Christ returns and that we all are judged at the GWT.

Mark

ross3421
Dec 9th 2008, 05:48 AM
Aren't unbelievers going to hell every day right now? Why can't they then? The term outer darkness is only used in connection with His return.

I think you are confusing Hell and outer darkness. Those which die daily without Christ go to hell but after the resurrection they are judged and then thrown into the lake of fire (outer darkness). There is not a gap between judgements.

The first resurrection

Rev 20:12 - "and I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of the those things which were written in the books, according to their works".

Here we see the first resurrection, the dead believers. We see them standing before God; the unbelievers will not stand in the judgement.

Ps 1:5 - "therefore the ungodly shall not stand in the judgment, nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous".

We see the reference to them as "small and great"; which were those who feared his name.

Rev 11:18 - "…..and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets and to the saints, and them that fear his name, small and great,….."

We see the book of life present and opened as Jesus confesses the names written therein.

Rev 3:5 - "he that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess His name before my father, and before his angels".

We see them judged according to their works. Are we not judged according to our works, not for the inheritance to the kingdom, but for reward. I will use the same text theologians use for the supposed "judgement seat of Christ" judgment.

II Cor 5:10 - "for we all must appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad".

Clearly we see here the dead believers being judged as was supported by the earlier text. Now it is time for the unbelievers to be judged.


The second resurrection

Rev 20:13 - "and the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works".

Here we see the second resurrection; the unbelievers. The important thing to note is the specific location whereby these originate. Does "sea" here reference a body of water? hardly. It is the same place whereby his father comes from Rev 13 and is to mean the bottomless pit. Another interesting point to be made here is that how can death deliver up the dead? At first it does not make sense, however, when we examine the forth seal we see that "death" is an individual thus making the understanding to the above scripture.

Rev 6:7,8 - "and when he had opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth beast say, come and see. And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was death, and hell followed with him.

Also note the lack of the mention of the book of life with these individuals. There is no need.


Mark

crush
Dec 9th 2008, 06:18 AM
Are you saying the sheep and goats are all wicked?
The sheep and the goats are the servants of the Lord that are alive at his coming. Read the context of Matt 25 and this becomes clear. The Lord goes away and puts his servants in charge of his household, when he returns he reward the ones that showed a profit, and punishes the ones that didn't. But they all have one thing in common whether they are rewarded are punished, they are all the Lord's servants, not the wicked of this world.

Matt 24 identifies the profitable/unprofitable servants as those that survive the Great Tribulation alive and puts the sheep/goats judgment in it's proper perspective...

Mat 24:44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.
Mat 24:45 Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?

Sound familiar? Who has the lord made ruler over his household? Everybody? Including all wicked?

Mat 24:46 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.
Mat 24:47 Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods.
Mat 24:48 But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;
Mat 24:49 And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;
Mat 24:50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,
Mat 24:51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

So we have a clear picture of eternal judgment and reward here at the close of the "present age" in Matt 24. It would seem to me that this is only concerning those Believers in Christ that live to see Christ's coming that are judged at this time.

Then, before we get to sheep/goats we read two more parables, the "10 virgins" and the "parable of the talents", both concerning the same theme, Jesus rewards his faithful servants and rebukes the unfaithful ones with eternal consequences. Is everybody in the world a "virgin", waiting patiently for the Lord's return, or is it just believers?

Then we come to the Sheep and Goats judgment that follows the last line of the "parable of the talents"

Mat 25:30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth

Anybody else starting to notice a theme? Is it everybody that is eternally rewarded or punished, or is it just the servants of Christ who survive the trib alive? Matt 24 is in answer to the disciples question:

Mat 24:3 And when he is sitting on the mount of the Olives, the disciples came near to him by himself, saying, `Tell us, when shall these be? and what is the sign of thy presence, and of the full end of the age?' YLT

Looks like to me the "age" ends with Christ's servants, the one's that he put in charge while he was away, are given eternal judgment.

OIC, because the nations are gathered to the sheep and goats judgment, this must mean that everyone that ever lived in the whole history of the earth is judged. Well that certainly changes everything LOL, one word undermining a theme carried over from the last half of of Matt 24 through the entirety of Matt 25. Maybe the nations are just there to see the show :lol:

DurbanDude
Dec 9th 2008, 06:19 AM
How would all those "name only" Christians mentioned in Luke 13 (which would include every century of Christians) even know about the 1000 years if, according to you, they won't even be resurrected until after the 1000 years are over?:hmm:

Raybob

Raybob, I never indicated they would know anything :hmm:

They will receive their final judgement when the 1000 years is over.

Sirus
Dec 9th 2008, 06:30 AM
I think you are confusing Hell and outer darkness. Those which die daily without Christ go to hell but after the resurrection they are judged and then thrown into the lake of fire (outer darkness). There is not a gap between judgements.

The first resurrection

Rev 20:12 - "and I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of the those things which were written in the books, according to their works".

Here we see the first resurrection, the dead believers. We see them standing before God; the unbelievers will not stand in the judgement.

Ps 1:5 - "therefore the ungodly shall not stand in the judgment, nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous".

We see the reference to them as "small and great"; which were those who feared his name.

Rev 11:18 - "…..and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets and to the saints, and them that fear his name, small and great,….."

We see the book of life present and opened as Jesus confesses the names written therein.

Rev 3:5 - "he that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess His name before my father, and before his angels".

We see them judged according to their works. Are we not judged according to our works, not for the inheritance to the kingdom, but for reward. I will use the same text theologians use for the supposed "judgement seat of Christ" judgment.

II Cor 5:10 - "for we all must appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad".

Clearly we see here the dead believers being judged as was supported by the earlier text. Now it is time for the unbelievers to be judged.


The second resurrection

Rev 20:13 - "and the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works".

Here we see the second resurrection; the unbelievers. The important thing to note is the specific location whereby these originate. Does "sea" here reference a body of water? hardly. It is the same place whereby his father comes from Rev 13 and is to mean the bottomless pit. Another interesting point to be made here is that how can death deliver up the dead? At first it does not make sense, however, when we examine the forth seal we see that "death" is an individual thus making the understanding to the above scripture.

Rev 6:7,8 - "and when he had opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth beast say, come and see. And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was death, and hell followed with him.

Also note the lack of the mention of the book of life with these individuals. There is no need.


MarkHow am I confusing hell and outer darkness?

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshiped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

Those cast into outer darkness simply join the rest of the dead NOT raised at Christ's appearing til the end of the 1000 years. This is not difficult!

third hero
Dec 9th 2008, 06:30 AM
As so to not get derailed here. I will only list my opinion. take it or leave it, this is what I believe.


We could argue this but after the Tribulation, there is the 1000 yr reign of Christ on the earth, the Kingdom these sheep are ushered into. The Throne judgment is after the 1000 yrs are over.

I agree.


Regardless, the believers of the Trib are different than the Church which had been raptured and given new bodies at least 7 years before.

I couldn't disagree more, even if I wanted to.

BTW, do you have any evidence in scripture to support this claim, and mind you, the left behind series doesn't cut it around here.

Sirus
Dec 9th 2008, 06:35 AM
I do! (not pre-trib)
Who are the guests?
They are not the bride, so who are they?

wpm
Dec 9th 2008, 06:38 AM
As so to not get derailed here. I will only list my opinion. take it or leave it, this is what I believe.



I agree.



I couldn't disagree more, even if I wanted to.

BTW, do you have any evidence in scripture to support this claim, and mind you, the left behind series doesn't cut it around here.

I would like to clarify, are you saying the sheep and goats are all wicked?

crush
Dec 9th 2008, 06:44 AM
I do! (not pre-trib)
Who are the guests?
They are not the bride, so who are they?
The guests are believers that would like to come to the marriage...

Mat 22:9 Go ye therefore into the highways, and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage.
Mat 22:10 So those servants went out into the highways, and gathered together all as many as they found, both bad and good: and the wedding was furnished with guests.
Mat 22:11 And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment:
Mat 22:12 And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless.
Mat 22:13 Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

you have to have a wedding garment though and alive at the time of the trib ;)

Rev 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Rev 16:15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame

crush
Dec 9th 2008, 06:49 AM
As so to not get derailed here.
From what I see, there are a ton of active amill threads here now, whether they started out that way or not LOL.

third hero
Dec 9th 2008, 07:06 AM
I do! (not pre-trib)
Who are the guests?
They are not the bride, so who are they?

And it shall come to pass, [that] every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles. Zechariah 14:16

And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that [have] no [rain]; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles. Zechariah 14:18

And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth [his] sheep from the goats: And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.Matthew 25:32-33

The answer is the heathen who pass the Lord's test in Matthew 25:34-30.

DurbanDude
Dec 9th 2008, 07:15 AM
You have entire nations made up of unbelievers without immortal bodies inheriting eternal life in the kingdom prepared for them from the foundation of the world (Matt 25:34,46). Can you tell me where else scripture teaches such a thing?

John146, I never said these entire nations inherit eternal life, I have always said they are mortal, and their destiny is the lake of fire at the end of 1000 years. The only immortals who have eternal life are those resurrected saints living in the camp of the saints in the blessed city. (Rev 20). I have been consistent and clear about this, you can confirm this by looking through all the recent posts where I have replied specifically to you.


Some verses about this earth or nations surviving the day of the Lord:
Zechariah 12/13 , Zephaniah , Joel 3, Ezekiel 38/39 , Isaiah 2, Rev 19:15, Jeremiah 4:27 , Isaiah 25, Daniel 7, Rev 11:15, Zechariah 8, Isaiah 34, Isaiah 61, zechariah 14

ross3421
Dec 9th 2008, 07:35 AM
[QUOTE=Sirus;1898026]How am I confusing hell and outer darkness?

Being cast into outer darkness occurs after the resurrection and into the lake of fire.

Account in Matt

Mt 8:11 And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.

Mt 8:12 But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Account in Luke

Lu 13:28 There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.

Lu 13:29 And they shall come from the east, and from the west, and from the north, and from the south, and shall sit down in the kingdom of God.

Lu 13:30 And, behold, there are last which shall be first, and there are first which shall be last.


1. The timing of those cast into outer darkness is AFTER the resurrection. Many coming from the east and west (Luke adds the north and south) is being representative of the resurrection.

Mr 13:27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

2. Weeping and gnashing of teeth are associated to the lake of fire not Hell. Also again notice the gathering ie resurection of the wicked and just.

Mt 13:49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,

Mt 13:50 And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.


Those cast into outer darkness simply join the rest of the dead NOT raised at Christ's appearing til the end of the 1000 years. This is not difficult!

What is making it difficult for you to understand is this thing called a 1000 years. The 1000 years is not literal. Scripture is clear that both the just and unjust are raised on the same day, this cannot be denied.

Da 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Joh 12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

Mark

ross3421
Dec 9th 2008, 07:42 AM
They will receive their final judgement when the 1000 years is over.

Scripture says that the wicked are judged on the last day, are there two last days? One when Christ returns and one at the end of 1000 years??

Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Joh 12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

Also note for all that belive in the 1000 years, it is really not 1000 years but 1000 years plus a little season :D

ross3421
Dec 9th 2008, 07:49 AM
The sheep and the goats are the servants of the Lord that are alive at his coming. they are all the Lord's servants, not the wicked of this world.

Scripture does not support this claim.

Mt 25:33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

Mt 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

Mt 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

DurbanDude
Dec 9th 2008, 08:13 AM
Scripture says that the wicked are judged on the last day, are there two last days? One when Christ returns and one at the end of 1000 years??

Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Joh 12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

Also note for all that belive in the 1000 years, it is really not 1000 years but 1000 years plus a little season :D

There was a judgment when the Babylonians destroyed the temple, when the Romans destroyed the temple (70 AD). There were judgments on the pre-Noah civilisation, and on Sodom and Gomorrah.

Whichever way you interpret it, people will be judged at the Second Coming for there is a great separation on that day.

crush
Dec 9th 2008, 09:55 AM
Scripture does not support this claim.

Mt 25:33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

Mt 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

Mt 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
I just showed in my post how the last half of Matt 24 and all of Matt 25 support this claim, as far as I know that's legitimate scripture. :lol:

The "goats" are UNPROFITABLE servants. But unprofitable servants are still the Lord's servants, they are just not worthy to receive eternal life, based on bad performance. Notice how UNPROFITABLE servants are distinguished from the wicked in the immediate context....

Mat 24:50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,
Mat 24:51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Notice the thought process that begins the downward spiral in the unprofitable servant...

Mat 24:48 But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;

These wicked servants are saying that "their Lord" is delaying his coming. If these were Beast worshipers, they would believe that "their Lord" was already here, so why would they be waiting for another to come?

wpm
Dec 9th 2008, 03:48 PM
3H

Please answer a simple question: are you saying the sheep and goats are all wicked?

Nihil Obstat
Dec 9th 2008, 07:09 PM
The parable of the virgins actually agrees totally with the climactic nature of the Coming of Christ. Men are either caught up or caught on. Being ready means rescue, being locked outside means destruction. Interpreting Scripture with Scripture would assist you here.

And when you do interpret Scripture with Scripture, you'll find that the major words, phrases, characters, themes, and the conclusions to the three parables in Matt. 25 are all used elsewhere in Matthew to speak of Jesus' first coming and the cross! Let's have a look:

In the parable of the ten virgins, these are awaiting the bridegroom, which is spoken of only one other time in this book, in 9:15, and clearly concerns His three and a half year earthly ministry and His death. Of the ten, five were wise and five were foolish, used in the conclusion of the Sermon on the Mount to speak of those who either obey or dismiss His words, again speaking primarily of His first coming. The midnight herald is John the Baptist, an easy deduction when following along with the overarching story that Matthew tells. Only one other place in Matthew is a wedding (v.10) spoken of, this in 22:1-14, which again strictly concerns His first coming (the "burning up" of their city in v.7 is clearly speaking of the Babylonian army, as in Scripture it is Babylon who burned Jerusalem and all the cities they plundered). The exhortation to watch is clearly to those primarily in His generation (though it applies to all generations).

The second parable, about the man traveling to a far country, again is about His first coming. One other place in Matthew is there a man who travels like this (v.14), in 21:33, who then takes from the unprofitable and gives to the fruitful (cp. v.28 w/ 21:43), which is undeniably about His first coming (21:45). There is also a clear connection between this parable and the one spoken in 18:21-35, as both include servants (cp. v.14 w/ 18:23), talents (cp. v.15 w/ 18:24), and settling accounts (cp. v.19 w/ 18:23-24), and the parable on forgiveness again clearly refers to the ratifying of the new covenant, which occurred on the cross. The warning He gives at the end about giving and taking (v.29) is an echo of 13:12, which concerns His first coming as well (cp. 13:13-17, 34-35). And weeping and gnashing of teeth always refers to those Jews who dismissed the words of Jesus (8:12; 13:42, 50; 22:13; 24:51).

As can be seen, the first two parables are primarily of His first coming, and not of His second. And as I've discussed before, the sheep and goats judgment also is about the cross and the people's response to it. There are many passages we immediately believe to be "climactic second coming" passages, but in reality are speaking of the judgment meted out at His first coming and at the cross (cp. John 3:18 in its context).

Pray about it. Study it out. Then pray into it. Then live it out. - Astro

third hero
Dec 9th 2008, 07:23 PM
3H

Please answer a simple question: are you saying the sheep and goats are all wicked?

You know what I have been saying, and so, I shouldn't have to answer this question.

However, there are some who may be confused.

1. THe eicked at the time of the Lord's return are the Beast and the leadership that follow after him. They are all destroyed at Megiddo.

2. The Heathen that did not participate at the battle at Megiddo are the ones who shall be judged. You call them all wicked, and I do not.

The Lord is the one who will judge, and his judgment will be based on what nations does with their Christians. Those who offer them as sacrifices to the BEAST WILL BE EXECUTED, WHILE THOSE WHO SHOW MERCY WILL RECEIVE MERCY.

John146
Dec 9th 2008, 09:31 PM
Prove it. I have proven that Mathew 25:31-45 refers to the heathen, the nations of the world.You have? Where? You keep sidestepping the fact that it speaks about eternal rewards or punishment being given out. Are you not willing to explain how it can be that heathen nations could receive eternal life in the kingdom prepared for them from the foundation of the world?


Like I have said before, verse 46 is not limited to Matthew 25:31-45, but all inclusive, which includes the judgment of the virgins, who happen to be Believers. Hence, in one sentence, both parables are mentioned, the righteous judgment (the ten virgins), and the wicked, (the nations), and by doing so, sums up the entire chapter.Take a closer look.

41Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: 42For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

So, in verse 41 He is speaking to those on his left hand, which are the goats, and they are sentenced to everlasting fire. Agree so far? Then He goes on to basically say that they ignored the plight of the least of these and therefore ignored and rejected Him. Then in verse 46 He says "And these...". Who are "these"? The goats on his left hand, obviously. He didn't change the subject from verse 45. Then He says the righteous go into life eternal. Since the goats go into everlasting punishment it only makes sense that it is the sheep that go into "life eternal".


Now, will you please attempt to use scripture to disprove what I have established using scripture?I already have several times. Your understanding of Matthew 25:31-46 is terribly flawed and introduces a concept (eternal sentences for entire nations) that is not taught in scripture anywhere.

John146
Dec 9th 2008, 09:41 PM
No. No eternal rewards are given here as we see with believers in the NT. Only entrance to the kingdom is given.Are you sure you are reading the passage carefully?

31When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: 32And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
41Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
46And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.


Right! So why attempt to apply this to born again believers? You are applying an impossibility to the impossible. That's futile.Only born again believers will inherit eternal life in the kingdom of the Father. That's not an impossibility at all. It's a certainty.

Sirus
Dec 10th 2008, 02:57 AM
The guests are believers that would like to come to the marriage...

Mat 22:9 Go ye therefore into the highways, and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage.
Mat 22:10 So those servants went out into the highways, and gathered together all as many as they found, both bad and good: and the wedding was furnished with guests.
Mat 22:11 And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment:
Mat 22:12 And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless.
Mat 22:13 Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

you have to have a wedding garment though and alive at the time of the trib ;)

Rev 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Rev 16:15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame"believers that would like to come to the marriage..."? We are the bride in the marriage, not guests at the marriage. Commentators say the garment has to do with how well we clean ourselves up. If it's not good enough we are cast into outer darkness. Put simply, the servants are bidding people to attend a marriage, not to get married. We are joined to the Lord in spirit and become one, and a member of His body. How can we then be guests? And how can a member of Christ's body be ripped off to be cast into outer darkness?

The wedding garment is like what some call our Sunday best. A cultural and historical study on the Jewish culture will show you this. I do think it represents how well one has lived their life, however it has nothing to do with who the bride is. That is never in question throughout scripture. This is speaking to a group that must meet a standard in order to enter the kingdom of heaven (earth). The earthly reign of Christ.

Mat 5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Here, they washed their robe.
Rev 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Here, He washed us, not our robe. Our robes is His robe. We are one. Christ's righteousness by faith
Rev 1:4 John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne;
Rev 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

Again, at the beginning of the trib it is said white robes are given. We didn't need to make them white because those that do is not referring to us.
Rev 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellow servants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

Again, 'given'. ....then....it is said...Blessed are they that are called to be guests at the marraige super.
Like
-"blessed is he that eats bread in the kingdom of God" (Luk 14:15)

Rev 19:8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.
Rev 19:9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.

Sirus
Dec 10th 2008, 03:03 AM
And it shall come to pass, [that] every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles. Zechariah 14:16

And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that [have] no [rain]; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles. Zechariah 14:18

And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth [his] sheep from the goats: And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.Matthew 25:32-33

The answer is the heathen who pass the Lord's test in Matthew 25:34-30.Well, I hardly see how a plague is going to affect a resurrected believer who is running the kingdom with Christ. Other than applying it to the resurrected body of Christ, you are correct.

Sirus
Dec 10th 2008, 03:16 AM
Being cast into outer darkness occurs after the resurrection and into the lake of fire.Outer darkness is hell, which is cast into the lake of fire at the GWT.



What is making it difficult for you to understand is this thing called a 1000 years. The 1000 years is not literal.You say it is not literal. It's just your opinion.



Scripture is clear that both the just and unjust are raised on the same day, this cannot be denied.Yes it is clear. I don't deny it. It says many, not all. Many cannot mean all in Hebrew as it can in Greek. You quickly forget only the church is raised first. Christ is the first fruits of them that sleep. We -the church- are raised because He was raised and for purpose. Every man in his own order. ;) The others are raise at the end BECAUSE -time- of final judgment.

Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

Sirus
Dec 10th 2008, 03:19 AM
Are you sure you are reading the passage carefully?

31When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: 32And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
41Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
46And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Only born again believers will inherit eternal life in the kingdom of the Father. That's not an impossibility at all. It's a certainty.I read it just fine, in fact I said ,'entrance to the kingdom is given'. There, is the tree and river of life. If they endure. The just are raised in the last day. Adam had eternal life because he had the tree of life.

If born again believers have eternal life why are you saying they can be cast into everlasting fire? Oh, sorry, you didn't say have. Well, I have eternal life I don't know about you. I believe and have passed from death to life. I am crucified with Christ by faith. I am dead, to sin, and the world, and I have evidence and substance in my life this is true and that Christ is risen and because of Him so am I.

RevLogos
Dec 10th 2008, 05:07 AM
All three parables in Matthew 25 share many similarities, which tells me they speak of the same event. Three parables of judgment to give importance to the message; to drill in basic fundamentals.

All 3 are judgments. And each shows only one judgment. If ever there were a time for Jesus to tell us there were two or three judgments, this would be the time. In Mat 25:10 the door us shut. That’s it. Jesus doesn’t say the door is shut, then open again for 7 years, then shut again, then open again for a thousand years, then shut again. Once its shut, its shut. In the parable of the talents, the king doesn’t go away again and come back again to give the servant a second or third chance. The sheep and goats are separated one time only.

And who is being judged? In all 3, people are being judged, whether represented as virgins awaiting the bridegroom, or as servants of a king, or as sheep and goats. These are people.

All of the people being judged have one thing in common: They all believe they should reign with Christ. The rejected virgins are banging at the door, the one called a servant does nothing with his faith but offers an excuse, as do the goats. This is consistent with other parables like the parable of the Sower where each group hears the Word but not all believe. Jesus is doing this to send a message. A very clear message in fact.

In all cases Jesus is judging faith by obedience and preparedness. He is warning us of religious hypocrites, and of those who hear the word but are not moved by them. Five of the virgins were hypocrites. The servant did nothing, the goats did nothing either, then offer excuses. These are strong messages. This is indeed a judgment of faith and obedience. The virgins have faith in the bridegrooms return and remain ready. The sheep are humble and in self-denial wanting only to do what is right, not believing it could be good enough. The Lord blesses them for their obedience, not for any title. Faith without works is dead because the Word changes people. Those who say they believe but are not transformed, who are not moved by the Word, who believe in cheap grace, will be, as Jesus told the Laodiceans, vomited out. These are words we had better hear!

Eph 6:5 Slaves, obey your earthly masters with respect and fear, and with sincerity of heart, just as you would obey Christ.
Eph 6:6 Obey them not only to win their favor when their eye is on you, but like slaves of Christ, doing the will of God from your heart.
Eph 6:7 Serve wholeheartedly, as if you were serving the Lord, not men,
Col 3:17 And whatever you do, whether in word or deed, do it all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through him.
And more in Post #20.

In all three cases Jesus puts honor upon the Godly first, so that they may be assessors with Jesus in the judgment of the wicked.

In all cases the judgment is final. Eternal sentences are handed out. The virgins are locked out, the servant goes to the outer darkness, the goats to the lake of fire. There is no judgment after this judgment.

To the point of the OP, all of these parables support the amil position. All of these are different views of the same final judgment. This is not obscure dogma but basic fundamental stuff.

Sirus
Dec 10th 2008, 05:32 AM
All 3 are judgments. And each shows only one judgment. If ever there were a time for Jesus to tell us there were two or three judgments, this would be the time. In Mat 25:10 the door us shut. That’s it. Jesus doesn’t say the door is shut, then open again for 7 years, then shut again, then open again for a thousand years, then shut again. Once its shut, its shut. In the parable of the talents, the king doesn’t go away again and come back again to give the servant a second or third chance. The sheep and goats are separated one time only.One final judgment yes, but that's at the end according to Daniel and Revelation not when Christ returns.



And who is being judged? In all 3, people are being judged, whether represented as virgins awaiting the bridegroom, or as servants of a king, or as sheep and goats. These are people.

All of the people being judged have one thing in common: They all believe they should reign with Christ. The rejected virgins are banging at the door, the one called a servant does nothing with his faith but offers an excuse, as do the goats. This is consistent with other parables like the parable of the Sower where each group hears the Word but not all believe. Jesus is doing this to send a message. A very clear message in fact.

In all cases Jesus is judging faith by obedience and preparedness. He is warning us of religious hypocrites, and of those who hear the word but are not moved by them. Five of the virgins were hypocrites. The servant did nothing, the goats did nothing either, then offer excuses. These are strong messages. This is indeed a judgment of faith and obedience. The virgins have faith in the bridegrooms return and remain ready. The sheep are humble and in self-denial wanting only to do what is right, not believing it could be good enough. The Lord blesses them for their obedience, not for any title. Faith without works is dead because the Word changes people. Those who say they believe but are not transformed, who are not moved by the Word, who believe in cheap grace, will be, as Jesus told the Laodiceans, vomited out. These are words we had better hear!Amen!!!



In all three cases Jesus puts honor upon the Godly first, so that they may be assessors with Jesus in the judgment of the wicked.That's a bazaar statement. Care to back that up with scripture?


In all cases the judgment is final. Eternal sentences are handed out. The virgins are locked out, the servant goes to the outer darkness, the goats to the lake of fire. There is no judgment after this judgment.It's after the first resurrection then there's a 1000 year reign. Who dies during the millennium? Just offspring? Possibly.



To the point of the OP, all of these parables support the amil position. All of these are different views of the same final judgment. This is not obscure dogma but basic fundamental stuff.supports amil to an amil.....

I don't pretend to have it all figured out. Seems a bit silly seeing this has been vigorously debated since Jesus spoke the parables. Yet, many in this thread think they have it all figured out but want to wrongly apply "fundamental stuff" like being a guest at a wedding to being the bride. Or being a bridesmaid to being the bride. I just read and believe what it says. Spiritualize and allegorize to change meanings, definitions all you want.

John146
Dec 10th 2008, 08:47 PM
I read it just fine, in fact I said ,'entrance to the kingdom is given'. There, is the tree and river of life. If they endure. The just are raised in the last day. Adam had eternal life because he had the tree of life.

If born again believers have eternal life why are you saying they can be cast into everlasting fire? Oh, sorry, you didn't say have. Well, I have eternal life I don't know about you. I believe and have passed from death to life. I am crucified with Christ by faith. I am dead, to sin, and the world, and I have evidence and substance in my life this is true and that Christ is risen and because of Him so am I.Tell me, do you believe Matthew 25:31-46 is speaking of a future event or not? Of course I understand that we are saved and have eternal life in a sense in the present but it's also true that we look forward to the eternal kingdom to come in its fullness. That time when we will have immortal bodies and wickedness will be removed. I believe that occurs when Christ returns and I believe that is what Matthew 25:31-46 is about.

wpm
Dec 10th 2008, 09:16 PM
One final judgment yes, but that's at the end according to Daniel and Revelation not when Christ returns.


I have to disagree. Paul confirms in 1 Corinthians 15:22-24, stating, “For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his Coming. Then (or) eita (or thereupon)cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down (or) katargeésee (or abolished) all rule and all authority and power.”

1 Corinthians 15:22-24 tells us that “all rule and all authority and power” are finally “put down” or katargeésee or abolished at the “Coming” or parousia of the Lord, which is, as we have established, confirmed in the next sentence as “the end.” The kingdom of God is finally and eternally presented “up,” whereas the kingdom of darkness is finally and eternally “put down.” This all-consummating last day that ushers in the end (or completion) of all things.

The parousia of Christ is the end (or télos)!

We see this in Christ’s response to the disciples second question in Matthew 24:3, “what shall be the sign of thy coming (parousia), and of the end (or) sunteleías (or completion, or consummation) of the world?”

The word telos used in 1 Corinthians 15:24 is also found in the above passage being coupled to and prefixed with the popular Greek word sun (Strong’s 4862) – denoting union and togetherness. The word carries the overall meaning of the entire end.

Jesus said in Matthew 24:6, 13-14, “ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end (or) télos is not yet ... But he that shall endure unto the end (or) télos, the same shall be saved. And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end (or) télos come."

1 Corinthians 1:7-8 describes how the Church is “waiting for the coming (parousia) of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall also confirm you unto the end (or) télos, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.”

The Coming of the Lord is again associated with “the end.” In this, we see a glorious promise that Christ shall “confirm” or establish or secure us “unto the end.”

Hebrews 3:14, says, “For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end (or) télos.”

Hebrews 6:11 says, “And we desire that every one of you do shew the same diligence to the full assurance of hope unto the end (or) télos.”

Revelation 2:26 says, “he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end (or) télos, to him will I give power over the nations.”

The Christian will therefore remain on earth “unto the end.”Here in these passages, heis commanded to be “stedfast unto the end,”“hope unto the end,” to keep God’s “works unto the end.”

My heart's Desire
Dec 11th 2008, 04:49 AM
I couldn't disagree more, even if I wanted to.

BTW, do you have any evidence in scripture to support this claim, and mind you, the left behind series doesn't cut it around here.
Sure I do, but those not premil of course don't accept that. It takes more than just A Scripture to show it but the Word as a whole, Scripture intrepreting Scripture. I didn't get doctrine from the left behind series.
Anyway, we've been thru this hundreds of times.

Sirus
Dec 11th 2008, 06:09 AM
Tell me, do you believe Matthew 25:31-46 is speaking of a future event or not? Of course I understand that we are saved and have eternal life in a sense in the present but it's also true that we look forward to the eternal kingdom to come in its fullness. That time when we will have immortal bodies and wickedness will be removed. I believe that occurs when Christ returns and I believe that is what Matthew 25:31-46 is about.Yes I believe it is future but that it's the literal earthly reign.

Sirus
Dec 11th 2008, 06:34 AM
I have to disagree. Paul confirms in 1 Corinthians 15:22-24, stating, “For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his Coming. Then (or) eita (or thereupon)cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down (or) katargeésee (or abolished) all rule and all authority and power.”

1 Corinthians 15:22-24 tells us that “all rule and all authority and power” are finally “put down” or katargeésee or abolished at the “Coming” or parousia of the Lord, which is, as we have established, confirmed in the next sentence as “the end.” The kingdom of God is finally and eternally presented “up,” whereas the kingdom of darkness is finally and eternally “put down.” This all-consummating last day that ushers in the end (or completion) of all things.

The parousia of Christ is the end (or télos)!See, I wouldn't have stopped at v24. It's the end of the age then the regeneration.

1Co 15:25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
1Co 15:26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
1Co 15:27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
1Co 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.


We see this in Christ’s response to the disciples second question in Matthew 24:3, “what shall be the sign of thy coming (parousia), and of the end (or) sunteleías (or completion, or consummation) of the world?”

The word telos used in 1 Corinthians 15:24 is also found in the above passage being coupled to and prefixed with the popular Greek word sun (Strong’s 4862) – denoting union and togetherness. The word carries the overall meaning of the entire end.

Jesus said in Matthew 24:6, 13-14, “ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end (or) télos is not yet ... But he that shall endure unto the end (or) télos, the same shall be saved. And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end (or) télos come."

1 Corinthians 1:7-8 describes how the Church is “waiting for the coming (parousia) of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall also confirm you unto the end (or) télos, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.”

The Coming of the Lord is again associated with “the end.” In this, we see a glorious promise that Christ shall “confirm” or establish or secure us “unto the end.”

Hebrews 3:14, says, “For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end (or) télos.”

Hebrews 6:11 says, “And we desire that every one of you do shew the same diligence to the full assurance of hope unto the end (or) télos.”

Revelation 2:26 says, “he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end (or) télos, to him will I give power over the nations.”

The Christian will therefore remain on earth “unto the end.”Here in these passages, heis commanded to be “stedfast unto the end,”“hope unto the end,” to keep God’s “works unto the end.”It's the end of the age then the regeneration.

Mat 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

John146
Dec 11th 2008, 05:39 PM
Yes I believe it is future but that it's the literal earthly reign.Where does Matthew 25:31-46 speak of a literal earthly reign?

Sirus
Dec 12th 2008, 02:18 AM
Mat 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

Raybob
Dec 12th 2008, 02:50 AM
Mat 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

Why would you think God's throne of His glory be located on this earth???

wpm
Dec 12th 2008, 02:53 AM
See, I wouldn't have stopped at v24. It's the end of the age then the regeneration.

1Co 15:25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
1Co 15:26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
1Co 15:27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
1Co 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

Exactly. The Holy Spirit states the reality that the Coming of Christ is the end. He then tells us that all things are put under His feet now (please read highlighted part above), until the final put down of the wicked at Christ's climactic Coming.



It's the end of the age then the regeneration.

Mat 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.


The end of the age is the end. Do you ever come to the end of a book and see 'The End'? That is what this is. The Holy Spirit couldn't have made it clearer. Jesus isn't going to usher us into another sin-cursed age no different from our own and then inform us 'By the way, do you remember that I told you my Coming was the end, well I am afraid to tell you, I have another 1,000 yrs of murders, funerals, wickedness, sinners and sin'.

The end of the age actually sees a general resurrection / judgment. Read these two climactic evidences. Jesus taught in the parable of the wheat and tares (in Matthew 13:24-30), “The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field. But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed among the wheat, and went his way …Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, (1) Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but (2) gather the wheat into my barn.”

Verses 39-43 continues, “the harvest is the end of the world (or) aioonos (or) age; and the reapers are the angels.(1) As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world (or) aioonos (or) age. The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. (2) Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father.”

In the parable of the wheat and the tares, “the end of the world” is plainly identified with the Coming of the “Son of man” with all “his angels” to gather together “the righteous” unto Himself in order that they will finally “shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father” in their glorified state. This event also (significantly) simultaneously sees the uprooting of the tares (in total) to be finally and completely destroyed by casting them “into a furnace of fire.” It is at the Second Coming therefore that Christ “shall send forth his angels” to reap that one final all-consummating harvest. The phrase “end of the world” is the end of the aioonos or age. Both wheat and tares are collectively and wholly judged together at the end of this present Gospel age.

The same truth is also revealed by Christ in Matthew 13:47-50, in the parable of the net: “the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind: Which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and (1) gathered the good into vessels, but (2) cast the bad away. So shall it be at the end of the world (or) aioonos (or) age: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just, And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.”

The symbolic drawing in of the net which sees the collective and simultaneous judgment of the wicked and the righteous is, like the parable of the wheat and the tares, identified with end of the aioonos or the end of the age. Plainly the Christ-rejecter is judged, sentenced and eternally separated from the elect of God at the end of the age – the time when Christ finally returns in “power and glory” to judge the living and the dead. The outcome for the wicked drawn in by God’s great net in this parable sees them “wailing (klauthmos) and gnashing of teeth”or as it is rendered in the parable of the talents: “weeping (klauthmos)and gnashing of teeth.” This is the time of final judgment for the rebel against God.

It is worth observing at this juncture that whilst these passages of themselves make it abundantly clear that the righteous remain on the earth till the end of this age, and that this climactic event ushers in the eternal separation of the wicked and the righteous, another important passage should be considered along with it to assist our examination – Matthew 28:19-20. Here Christ instructs His disciples: “Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the aioonos(or) age.”

Firstly, the conclusion of the evangelisation of the nations is identified with the end of this current Gospel age. This perfectly correlates with the teaching of the aforementioned parables. The conclusion of the spread of the Gospel to “all nations” sees the collective judging of “all nations” immediately following. This supports the Amillennial viewpoint that the general (all-consummating) judgment of all mankind (which expressly sees the complete destruction of the wicked) occurs at the Second Advent. Secondly, the Lord’s assistance in this great commission terminates with the end of the age. He says, “lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the age.” He gives no promise of His assistance or empowerment after this, as some Premils would try and suggest. In fact, Jesus taught His disciples in Matthew 24:14, “this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.”

The Gospel age is always identified with the period preceding the appearing of the Lord not a period following. The end of the age witnesses the end of the great commission. The nations throughout “all the world”will have received their final opportunity – “then shall the end come.” It will assuredly be the end of the Gospel outreach and therefore salvation. It sees the close of the door of opportunity and of grace to the wicked forever. It is in fact the end of time. It is at this juncture that mankind of all ages – embodying both “the quick (or living) and the dead” – will be brought to the bar of God to account for their response to the revelation of God and the truth of His Word.

Sirus
Dec 12th 2008, 04:02 AM
Why would you think God's throne of His glory be located on this earth???since 'Heaven' descends here in the new earth for God to dwell with man, and since he created to earth to be inhabited forever, and the earth is called the kingdom of heaven, what makes you think it would be anywhere else?

Sirus
Dec 12th 2008, 04:08 AM
Exactly. The Holy Spirit states the reality that the Coming of Christ is the end. He then tells us that all things are put under His feet now (please read highlighted part above), until the final put down of the wicked at Christ's climactic Coming. Yes, but since you are amil you think that is the last but I think that is the first when Satan is bound for a 1000 years. I really appreciate the time you are putting into your post but I am premil and that is not going to change. Not that I am closed minded, I have studied scripture/theology for 17 years, heard and read the arguments, and have just never once been inclined to believe amil-ism.

Raybob
Dec 12th 2008, 05:01 AM
since 'Heaven' descends here in the new earth for God to dwell with man, and since he created to earth to be inhabited forever, and the earth is called the kingdom of heaven, what makes you think it would be anywhere else?

Heaven decends 'here'??? Are you talking about a new earth after this one melts?

Raybob

third hero
Dec 12th 2008, 05:24 AM
Where does Matthew 25:31-46 speak of a literal earthly reign?

And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth [his] sheep from the goats: -Matthew 25:32

Where are the nations? Are they not on earth? Is ther any nations in heaven?

SHow me where the location of the Judgment in Matthew 25:31-45 is. Because if verse 32 haas anything to say about it, this judgment happens on earth, where the nations are located, and gathered.

wpm
Dec 12th 2008, 05:30 AM
And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth [his] sheep from the goats: -Matthew 25:32

Where are the nations? Are they not on earth? Is ther any nations in heaven?

SHow me where the location of the Judgment in Matthew 25:31-45 is. Because if verse 32 haas anything to say about it, this judgment happens on earth, where the nations are located, and gathered.

First, it doesn't say it is on earth.
Second, it doesn't matter where this final judgment is, it is the end and it is all-inclusive.

Nihil Obstat
Dec 12th 2008, 05:39 AM
...it doesn't matter where this final judgment is...

Actually it does, seeing as it occurs on the cross, as I put forth here (http://bibleforums.org/showpost.php?p=1898757&postcount=76) (though it was ignored).

Sirus
Dec 12th 2008, 05:58 AM
Exactly. The Holy Spirit states the reality that the Coming of Christ is the end. He then tells us that all things are put under His feet now (please read highlighted part above), until the final put down of the wicked at Christ's climactic Coming.Yes, well I know amils don't like to hear it but the natural nation of Israel will rule. End of an age is not the end. You only seem to want to apply the greek when it fits your theology.

Rev 22:12-15 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

Yes, during the regeneration, when the tree of life is here again, there will still be sin, sickness and death. 'NATIONS' that do not come up to worship Him once a year will suffer plagues and have no rain. Yes, that IS what it says. If this is now, where is the tree of life? Bc I could use a lot of healing in this old body.

wpm
Dec 12th 2008, 06:06 AM
Yes, well I know amils don't like to hear it but the natural nation of Israel will rule. End of an age is not the end. You only seem to want to apply the greek when it fits your theology.

Rev 22:12-15 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

Yes, during the regeneration, when the tree of life is here again, there will still be sin, sickness and death. 'NATIONS' that do not come up to worship Him once a year will suffer plagues and have no rain. Yes, that IS what it says. If this is now, where is the tree of life? Bc I could use a lot of healing in this old body.

Revelation 21:1-4 rebuts your latest argument: “And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.”

All the former consequences of the curse will be eternally removed for the elect through the glorification process. Moreover, this current earth will be simultaneously be renewed by way of fiery regeneration. ays, "hy would I want to run away from such a precious provision?ally is love.es awe of Him.

lready revealed.Revelation 22:1-3 says, “And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb. In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. And there shall be no more curse:but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him.”

Sirus
Dec 12th 2008, 06:22 AM
Revelation 21:1-4 rebuts your latest argument: “And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.”

All the former consequences of the curse will be eternally removed for the elect through the glorification process. Moreover, this current earth will be simultaneously be renewed by way of fiery regeneration. ays, "hy would I want to run away from such a precious provision?ally is love.es awe of Him.

lready revealed.Revelation 22:1-3 says, “And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb. In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. And there shall be no more curse:but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him.”


The regeneration is not the new earth. Jesus said the disciples would sit on thrones judging the 12 tribes of Israel in the regeneration. Are they doing that in the new earth?

Also, in the new earth there is no sea. In the regeneration there is. Ezekiel plainly says shows the trees on both sides of the river of life that go down to the sea and heal it and the land.

You have combined what Scripture separates.

third hero
Dec 12th 2008, 06:28 AM
First, it doesn't say it is on earth.
Second, it doesn't matter where this final judgment is, it is the end and it is all-inclusive.
I find that wherever I read Matthew 24:3, I see the words, "end of the age". The "end of the age" is not "the end" it is only the end of something, but not the end of everything. Hence Matthew 25:31-45, Revelation 20:1-10, and Zechariah 14:5-21. , your greatest roadblock is the scripture you attempt to argue against.

Raybob
Dec 12th 2008, 07:24 AM
The regeneration is not the new earth. Jesus said the disciples would sit on thrones judging the 12 tribes of Israel in the regeneration. Are they doing that in the new earth?

Jesus knew that one of those twelve (Judas) that He was talking to was headed for the lake of fire so He couldn't literally be speaking of those 12 sitting on literal thrones, literally.


Also, in the new earth there is no sea. In the regeneration there is. Ezekiel plainly says shows the trees on both sides of the river of life that go down to the sea and heal it and the land.

If you are reading a prophecy of the "river of life" as a literal future H2O tributary, IMO, you need to study the "river of life" in the light of other passages.

Joh 7:38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.

Joh 4:10 Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water.

Rev 22:1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.

Raybob

John146
Dec 12th 2008, 03:54 PM
I am premil and that is not going to change. Not that I am closed mindedOkay, if you say so. :rolleyes:

John146
Dec 12th 2008, 03:56 PM
Actually it does, seeing as it occurs on the cross, as I put forth here (http://bibleforums.org/showpost.php?p=1898757&postcount=76) (though it was ignored).So, do you think that all the text that speaks about everyone one day appearing before the judgment seat of Christ to give account of themselves shouldn't be taken literally?

John146
Dec 12th 2008, 03:59 PM
I find that wherever I read Matthew 24:3, I see the words, "end of the age". The "end of the age" is not "the end" it is only the end of something, but not the end of everything. Hence Matthew 25:31-45, Revelation 20:1-10, and Zechariah 14:5-21. Again, like the JW belief system, your greatest roadblock is the scripture you attempt to argue against.Do you believe the end of the age from Matthew 24:3 is the same end of the age that is mentioned in Matthew 13?

Matt 13
40As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world (age). 41The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
43Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

49So shall it be at the end of the world (age): the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just, 50And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Can you tell me how these passages correlate with your view?

Nihil Obstat
Dec 12th 2008, 04:11 PM
So, do you think that all the text that speaks about everyone one day appearing before the judgment seat of Christ to give account of themselves shouldn't be taken literally?

No, I think they should be taken in their contexts. What are some other examples of Christ's judgment seat? And what is your response to Jesus using the exact same words, phrases, characters, themes, exhortations, and conclusions in Matt. 25 as He does elsewhere in Matthew to speak of His first coming and the cross? - Astro

third hero
Dec 12th 2008, 04:25 PM
Do you believe the end of the age from Matthew 24:3 is the same end of the age that is mentioned in Matthew 13?

Matt 13
40As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world (age). 41The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
43Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

49So shall it be at the end of the world (age): the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just, 50And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Can you tell me how these passages correlate with your view?

No. The judgment presented here is the same as the Great White Throne judgment, where the wicked are eliminated totally. (Revelation 20:11-15). Notice the term, "furnace of fire"? It is the very same place as Gehenna, thge Lake of Fire, the second death, the final resting place of the wicked, along with Death, Satan, the Beast and the False prophet. I understand that you still insist on omitting Revelation 20:1-10, but I assure you, those scriptures are there for a reason.

John146
Dec 12th 2008, 04:46 PM
No.How do you determine that? Why wouldn't Jesus be consistent whenever He spoke of the end of the age? If there was more than one end of the age why wouldn't He say so? Could it be that you're not willing to acknowledge that Jesus spoke of the same end of the age in Matthew 13 that is mentioned in Matthew 24:3 only because that does not correlate with your view? These passages teach that Jesus returns at the end of the age and the judgment of all people takes place at the end of the age. This supports the amil view, so it's no wonder that you would want to try to say that they are two different ages. But Jesus only spoke in terms of this temporal age where people marry and die and the eternal age to come when people will no longer marry or die (Luke 20:34-36).


The judgment presented here is the same as the Great White Throne judgment, where the wicked are eliminated totally. (Revelation 20:11-15). Notice the term, "furnace of fire"? It is the very same place as Gehenna, thge Lake of Fire, the second death, the final resting place of the wicked, along with Death, Satan, the Beast and the False prophet. But do you notice the judgment presented in those passages includes the presence of believers and that it is not until then that they inherit the kingdom? Those passages show that all people are gathered at the same time before the throne and not a thousand years apart as premil suggests.


I understand that you still insist on omitting Revelation 20:1-10, but I assure you, those scriptures are there for a reason.I'm not omitting Revelation 20:1-10 at all. I've discussed it many times. It should agree with what is taught in passages like Matthew 25:31-46 and Matthew 13:36-43 and I believe only the amil view reconciles all of these passages together.

John146
Dec 12th 2008, 04:52 PM
No, I think they should be taken in their contexts. What are some other examples of Christ's judgment seat? And what is your response to Jesus using the exact same words, phrases, characters, themes, exhortations, and conclusions in Matt. 25 as He does elsewhere in Matthew to speak of His first coming and the cross? - AstroCan you be more specific? Also, do you believe Matthew 24 and the rest of Matthew 25 refer to the first coming rather than the second as well?

wpm
Dec 12th 2008, 05:08 PM
No. The judgment presented here is the same as the Great White Throne judgment, where the wicked are eliminated totally. (Revelation 20:11-15). Notice the term, "furnace of fire"? It is the very same place as Gehenna, thge Lake of Fire, the second death, the final resting place of the wicked, along with Death, Satan, the Beast and the False prophet. I understand that you still insist on omitting Revelation 20:1-10, but I assure you, those scriptures are there for a reason.

When is the end of the age?

quiet dove
Dec 12th 2008, 05:27 PM
You guys are going round and round here, and thats fine, as long as your having fun??? (nice fun)And not getting aggravated, cause I don't see either side backing down. When it's past edifying, it's time to bow out.

Nihil Obstat
Dec 12th 2008, 07:10 PM
When is the end of the age?

Before Jesus came, the Jews (faithful and unfaithful alike) believed that there were only two ages: 1) the present evil age, and 2) the age to come. They believed that the Day of the Lord was the conclusion of the first and the dawning of the last. However, when Jesus came, He and His apostles brought clarity to that understanding, explaining that in between His death and Second Coming would be a transition period - a season of amnesty, as I've heard it put - when both ages would overlap. This is likened several times in the NT to the Exodus account as a type of New Exodus, where His people are no longer in eschatological Egypt, but they are also not yet in the eschatological Canaan - we are in the wilderness. The NT authors speak often of the realities of both ages (death and sin vs. indwelling Spirit) as being present tense. The present evil age is present now (Gal. 1:4), as is the age to come (Acts 2:16-21), though not fully. This has a great deal to do with why Jesus repeatedly stated that the Son of Man would come at an hour that they did not expect. It's not that far of a jump, then, to liken the future millennial reign of Jesus, when He will rule the nations with a rod of iron (Rev. 19:15), to the book of Joshua. I think it's possible that we've made the millennium more glamorous than it will be.

- Astro

Nihil Obstat
Dec 12th 2008, 07:34 PM
Can you be more specific? Also, do you believe Matthew 24 and the rest of Matthew 25 refer to the first coming rather than the second as well?

Well, I was pretty specific in my previous post (http://bibleforums.org/showpost.php?p=1898757&postcount=76) and it has been completely ignored - why was it? Will my future posts be treated any differently? I'm not a full-preterist or anything close to one, so please don't think me to be a heretic. In no way have I implied, nor do I agree, that Matt. 24 is solely about Jesus' first coming or about 70 AD (who could agree that v.21 happened in 70 AD in light of the Holocaust? - and v.22 didn't remotely happen in 70 AD, as the elect heeded Jesus' warnings and left early - and the exact opposite of v.31 occurred in 70 AD). No, all I've said is that Matt. 25 is primarily about Jesus' first coming, specifically surrounding the cross event. How then could this follow ch. 24, you ask? Well, how (and more importantly, why) does Jesus transition from condemning His own generation and prophesying of 70 AD (23:31-36; 24:2) to then prophesying of His second coming, the regathering of Israel, and the new heavens and new earth? This is something we all need to wrestle with, as this will do so much more than excite our minds - this will strengthen your inner man and give you a holy resolve in your spirit to live joyously in obedience to Jesus' words and ways. Simply knowing an order of events won't save anyone, but only knowing Jesus will - not knowing about Him, but rather experiencing Him daily.

- Astro

DeafPosttrib
Dec 12th 2008, 10:29 PM
Bible tells us there are only two ages. This present age have been occuring since from the beginning at creation to now for about 6,000 years. Then, the next age to come is eternality follow at the coming of Christ.

In Luke 20:34, Christ tells us, people of this present age(world) are given to marry, and to produce more children.

Then, Luke 20:35-36 say: "But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage: Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection."

This telling us, in the next world(age) to come, people will not get marry, produce more chiuldren again anymore, because they will be like angels, and children of God, becuse they will be resurrection, new glorify body, immortal, be like Christ's body.

In 1 Cor. 15:51-54 telling us, when the last trumpet sounds at Christ's coming, all Christians will be change into immortal and incorruptible, new body be like Christ's, this is the picture of rapture at the second coming at the end of this age.

1 Cor. 15:50 tells us, flesh and blood cannot enter the kingdom. That means, sins cannot enter God's kingdom. What will be happen to all unbelievers? All their carnal bodies will be cast away into fire at Christ's coming with his angels.

There be no flesh and mortal people on new earth and in New Jerusalem. All unbelievers will be gone away in the lake of fire once after the judgment day at Christ's coming.

Matt. 13:39-43 telling us clear, when Christ will come with his angels, all nations will be gathering together, but to apart them into two classes, taken all tares(unbelievers) from wheat(believers), cast them away in the fire. That will be at end of this age.

In our common sense of "age" simple means we are right now in the gospel period, that the nations are still opporunity and chance to hear the gospel, have time to make decision and repent for salvation. The gospel have been opening to all nations for almost 2000 years already. But, the opporunity of salvation will be soon closed.

Jeremiah 8:20 says: "The harvest is past, the summer is ended, and we are not saved."

This verses make sense compare with harvest of Matthew 13:39-42.

Before the harvest come, both unbelievers and believers are growing together(Matt 13:30) over the world right now, while the gospel is still open for the world to hear and to make decision for salvation. It have been open for almost 2000 years now. But, when time for the harvest come, then the gospel is finished, time for the judgment to come upon the world. Then, the summer is done is picture as the gospel is finished. And people who are still reject the gospel, will be end up catch up by angels and they will not be saved to face the seat of Christ to judge them. They will be cast away into the lake of fire at once.

Then, when after the judgment is done, then the next age come is eternality, where we shall reign with Christ on new earth and in New Jerusalem. That's it.

Very simple and plain.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

Partaker of Christ
Dec 13th 2008, 12:13 AM
When is the end of the age?

Which one?

Eph 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
Eph 2:7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

RJ Mac
Dec 13th 2008, 01:31 AM
John my understanding of Mt.25:31-46 is this.
On judgment day there are two separate judgment scenes, as Jesus states.
Jn.5:29 a resurrection of life - a resurrection of judgment
Ac.24:15 a resurrection of both - the righteous and the wicked.
Mt.13 the tares are gathered and burned, then the wheat are gathered to the barn.
2Th.1:7-10 those who don't know God are taken, then the righteous are gathered.
Rev.20:7-10 fire devours the wicked, takes them to white throne judgment.

What I believe is this judgment is only of the church and the sheep are those
in the body of Christ who loved the brethren. The goats are those in the body
who have not loved the brethren. How can the wicked be condemned because
they did not love the brethren, they are condemned because they knew not God
and did not obey the gospel of Christ. 2Th.1:8;

The Nations can refer to only Christians as we see in Rev.21:24; 22:2;

The ten virgins all knew the Bridegroom, they were all Christians.
The three men were given talents from the one master, all three were Christian.
The sheep and the goats all knew the king, when did we see you...?
They are all Christian.

RJ

DeafPosttrib
Dec 13th 2008, 02:34 AM
Partaker of Christ,

Eph. 2:7 talks about God's grace toward us.

I understand 'ageS' could mean more than one or two ages. Also, it means periods or times.

This verse makes the point is, His grace is no limited upon person whosever have faith in Christ. His grace was always right there in the Old Testament period, not just for "Church Age" period only as what Dispensationalism teaches. His grace is no limited and it is richly eternality blessing upon person whosoever have faith in Christ. Eph. 2:7 contexts with verse 8 and 9 talks about grace, not ages. His grace always there from the beginning to the end at His coming.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

Sirus
Dec 13th 2008, 05:26 AM
Jesus knew that one of those twelve (Judas) that He was talking to was headed for the lake of fire so He couldn't literally be speaking of those 12 sitting on literal thrones, literally.I didn't say those twelve and neither did Jesus. Read it again. He did exclude Judas. You just need to read the words and not The Word.



If you are reading a prophecy of the "river of life" as a literal future H2O tributary, IMO, you need to study the "river of life" in the light of other passages.

Joh 7:38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.

Joh 4:10 Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water.

Rev 22:1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.Done that, but since I read words in language context and culture and not just the Word I allow scripture to define itself. That way, no man decides what is literal and what is not allowing him to choose when to spiritualize and when not to in order to form or fit a particular theology. Scripture decides. John 4 and 7 are not proof texts for a non literal river of life. They are spritual truths reflecteded and reigning in literal and physical truths. Like the glorified Savior is both spiritual and physical. Both are true.

Raybob
Dec 14th 2008, 04:58 AM
You know what I have been saying, and so, I shouldn't have to answer this question.

However, there are some who may be confused.

1. THe eicked at the time of the Lord's return are the Beast and the leadership that follow after him. They are all destroyed at Megiddo.

2. The Heathen that did not participate at the battle at Megiddo are the ones who shall be judged. You call them all wicked, and I do not.

The Lord is the one who will judge, and his judgment will be based on what nations does with their Christians. Those who offer them as sacrifices to the BEAST WILL BE EXECUTED, WHILE THOSE WHO SHOW MERCY WILL RECEIVE MERCY.

These would be the goats but who are the sheep that get their reward when Jesus separates the sheep and the goats?

Raybob

Nihil Obstat
Dec 14th 2008, 07:38 AM
When reading Matt. 25:31-46 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2025:31-46&version=31), compare this parable with Eze. 34 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ezekiel%2034&version=31), and be sure to keep this in mind: Though the English for "sheep" and "goats" gives the picture of a beady-eyed, fluffy white sheep (http://blogs.bootsnall.com/Leaott/files/2006/11/sheep.jpg) and a creepy-eyed, wire-haired horned goat (http://img.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2007/03_02/FeralGoatDM_468x487.jpg), this is misleading, because the Greek reveals (as does the OT reference) that the differences between these two animals would be indiscernible, as they are one and the same kind of sacrificial animal! The judgment is not one of outward appearance, but of their treatment toward His brethren (who also are outwardly the same as they, yet inwardly are like Him; cp. 12:50 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2012:46-50;&version=31;)). Individuals, households, cities, and even whole nations can receive a disciple of Christ without being disciples themselves... (cp. 10:11-15 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2010:11-15;&version=31;); 24:9 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2024:9;&version=31;), 14 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2024:14;&version=31;); also, much of Acts, etc). How else could the Great Commission (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2028:18-20&version=31) work...? Definitely re-read all of Matt. 10 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2010;&version=31;) before getting confused with the rewards given the sheep nations.

- Astro

Nihil Obstat
Dec 15th 2008, 08:32 PM
Let's take a closer look at Eze. 34, which will hopefully spark some more conversation here. As Ezekiel prophesies this, Babylon had for the third time just swept through Jerusalem, and it was this wave when they destroyed the temple. The prophet is with the captives in Babylon, and he prophesies against those who had been shepherds of Israel before they themselves were taken captive, telling them that the burden of Israel's fall had fallen upon them. This is because they (the shepherds) did not shepherd the flock, but shepherded themselves, leaving the flock without a shepherd, and so the flock was scattered (34:2-6). The Lord explains that the Babylonian sieges were purposed by Him to deliver His flock from the hands of the unfaithful shepherds (34:10), and that He Himself would seek out His flock (34:11; Matt. 10:6; 15:24; 18:11; cp. John 10), deliver them, and shepherd them. Jesus sought out the lost sheep of Israel during His three and a half year ministry on earth, He delivered them from their Babylonian exile at the cross (see Luke 1:67-80; 22:14-20), but has not yet delivered them to the land promised them (34:13), which will be accomplished in its fullness at His second coming. As John the Baptist made known (Luke 1:77), the deliverance from their enemies (2nd coming) comes by the deliverance from their sin (1st coming / crucifixion).

Then in 34:16 there is a summary statement / transition verse, where "the fat and the strong" of the flock are separated from among "the broken and ... [the] sick" for having treated their weak brethren similar to how the unfaithful shepherds had done to all of them (34:17-22). It's interesting to note that Babylonians are not judged in this chapter, but only Israelites for how they treated their own kin (which is the reason for ch.35, for Esau was Jacob's twin). Verse 16 strongly indicates that this seeking, gathering, binding up, strengthening, and destroying is summed up in one point in history, and we know from many NT passages that this could only be at the cross. This is because God - Yahweh - interacts not so much in time, but rather through covenant. (Note: This is not dispensationalistic, because the New covenant promises were included in the Adamic, Noahic, Abrahamic, Deuteronomic, and Davidic covenants as well.) The chapter then concludes with covenantal blessings for His flock who were a prey in all the lands, even among their own brothers (cp. Matt. 5:3-12; not that the oppressed are saved apart from faith).

In Matt. 25:31-46 Jesus echoes Eze. 34, just as He did Eze. 33 in Matt. 24:45-25:13. His people were still scattered in exile and oppressed by a foreign king, just as in Ezekiel's day (which was why Jesus was the promised Immanuel; Matt. 1:23). Also, the shepherds of Israel (the Pharisees and scribes, who sat in Moses' seat; Matt. 23:2) were concerned only for themselves, and not for the flock. Several times Jesus made it clear that He (and His disciples) were only to go to the lost sheep of Israel, and that His (and one day their own) persecution and murder (by way of His own Jewish brethren; Acts 2:23; 3:14-15; etc. - the Gentiles acted out of ignorance; see Luke 23:33-34) would be for a testimony to the Gentiles (Matt. 10:18; cp. v.38; 24:14; 27:19, 24, 54). In this way - through persecution and martyrdom - the gospel of the kingdom would go forth to all nations. Jesus' death impacted every demonic principality in the heavenlies; what do you think it did to the nations who walked in agreement with those powers? The cross, like a two edged sword, divided the nations into those who either feared God (the sheep) or who did not fear God (the goats), knowing full well that repentance was now commanded of them (Acts 17:30-31). The message of repentance was brought to them by His disciples - His brethren - and how these nations received His disciples was how they would have received a crucified God, for His disciples carried their cross as well. Those nations who received them would receive the reward of a disciple (Matt. 10:40-42); those who refused them would be denied this reward of eternal life, and be cast into the same pit as the devil and his angels.

- Astro

Partaker of Christ
Dec 16th 2008, 01:32 AM
Partaker of Christ,

Eph. 2:7 talks about God's grace toward us.

I understand 'ageS' could mean more than one or two ages. Also, it means periods or times.

This verse makes the point is, His grace is no limited upon person whosever have faith in Christ. His grace was always right there in the Old Testament period, not just for "Church Age" period only as what Dispensationalism teaches. His grace is no limited and it is richly eternality blessing upon person whosoever have faith in Christ. Eph. 2:7 contexts with verse 8 and 9 talks about grace, not ages. His grace always there from the beginning to the end at His coming.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

Thanks DeafPosttrib!

But it does say, that in the "ages to come"

Raybob
Dec 16th 2008, 02:21 AM
Thanks DeafPosttrib!

But it does say, that in the "ages to come"

The Greek for "Ages" in Eph. 2:7 is the same as in "ages" of Col. 1:26.

Col 1:26 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:

This simply means time periods, not like any period of time that will come after the return of Christ. We know from many other scriptures what happens to this earth when He arrives so Eph. 2:7 is clearly not speaking of any 'age' that will be after His return. ;)

Raybob

Nihil Obstat
Dec 16th 2008, 06:23 AM
A friend of mine pointed out the hilarity of this situation (concerning our respective interpretations of Matt. 25): I, as a premillennialist, am speaking very much like an amillennialist, and that you amillennialists are speaking very much like premillennialists would. How strange!

jeffweeder
Dec 16th 2008, 10:29 AM
The judgment in Matthew 13 is the Revelation 20:11-15 judgment. For in this judgment, the wicked are gathered, and burned. The righteous are left, as is the case when the New heaven and New earth come into existence. Matthew 25 does not have that type of judgment

It has to be the same judgement. Look at the last verse of Matt 25


These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

Eternal punishment is executed at the Great White Throne-the lake of fire, not before.

The nations that are gathered are all nations, because the Gospel has gone to all nations, before this end can come. Sheep exist in all nations as Jesus said in Jn 10.
God reaps a harvest that nobody can count, from all tribes..



JN 10
"I am the good shepherd, and I know My own and My own know Me,
15 even as the Father knows Me and I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep.
16 "I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will hear My voice; and they will become one flock with one shepherd.

These are the sheep from the nations- which Jesus seperates at his coming;

REV 21

The nations will walk by its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it.
25 In the daytime (for there will be no night there) its gates will never be closed;
26 and they will bring the glory and the honor of the nations into it;
27 and nothing unclean, and no one who practices abomination and lying, shall ever come into it, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life.

third hero
Dec 16th 2008, 02:04 PM
It has to be the same judgement. Look at the last verse of Matt 25

The only way it "has" to be the same is if you affix these two judgments together, which the Amil belief system sttempts to do. The simple fact is that these are NOT the same judgments, since one is affixed to the end of the world, and the other is affixed to the establishing of the Kingdom of Heaven on earth, in fulfillment of so many OT and NT scriptures, including Revelation 20:4-6.



Eternal punishment is executed at the Great White Throne-the lake of fire, not before.

THis is why I do not follow the Amil belief system. According to Revelation 19, the Lake is used before the GWT judgment, as the Beast and the false prophet are hurled into the Lake of Fire during the battle at Armageddon. According to Revelation 14, all who takes the Mark of the Beast will share in his punishment, the Lake of Fire. These judgments happen after the Lord comes and well before the Last Day judgment. Your last statement here is only applicable if Revelation 19-20 was never written. However, it has been written. When the NT scripture is viewed in the lens of Revelation 19-20, we see that everything falls into place. We see the Lord returning, gathering His elect, His going to Jerusalem to establish His Kingdom, destroying the armies of the Beast, His sentencing the Beast, the false prophet, his judging of the nations, and those "unworthy" hurled into that very same lake, while the remnant are spared to be ruled under by Lord Jesus.


The nations that are gathered are all nations, because the Gospel has gone to all nations, before this end can come. Sheep exist in all nations as Jesus said in Jn 10.
God reaps a harvest that nobody can count, from all tribes..
These are the sheep from the nations- which Jesus seperates at his coming;

REV 21

Again, you are trying to create a whole new definition of a word that has been constant for the last 3400 years. The term "nations" has always stood for the nations of this world. I see that according to your way of thinking, because the Gospel is spread throughout the world that suddenly, the world is now the church, and thus the term "nations" has to be changed into the church. This way of thinking still fails, mainly because the basis of the Lord's judgment against the nations is their treatment of His Brethern, which is the church. So, the Lord can not judge the church on how it treats itself. Therefore, those who are judged are the heathen, because the church, at the time of this judgment in Matthew 25:31-45, is already with Him, and thus does not have to worry about things like the Second death, or even death for that matter. The sheep are the heathen who show mercy towards the brethern who are under the duress of the Great Tribulation, and the goats are those who refused to help the brethern.

It really makes sense when you read these verses devoid of your personal interpretations.

Partaker of Christ
Dec 16th 2008, 02:25 PM
I am completely baffled as to how anyone can say that Matthew 13, is the same event as Matthew 25? Matthew 13 speaks of the angels separating the wheat from the tares. I don't see any questions being asked. Matthew is when Christ gathers all nations to Himself, and He (not the angels) separates sheep and goats.

wpm
Dec 16th 2008, 05:08 PM
The people being judged, the nations, are judged based on their treatment of His, the King's, (aka Lord Jesus), brethern, (verses 36-30, with emphasis on verse 40). These who had fulfilled the requirements, they are to be considered the "sheep", just like Matthew 25:32-40 plainly states.


Sheep care for the brethren

Sheep (the brethren) treat sheep (the brethren) with love and care. I don't see the difficulty in Christ requiring believers to treat each other with love and affection and to aid them at every opportunity. I thought this was a sign that we are His disciples. Jesus said John 13:34-35: “By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.”

This is an evidence of salvation. This says that non-believers will know that we are real and that we belong to God if we love one another. Love among the brethren is the ultimate sign or badge that we possess.

1 John 4:12, 20 says: “If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us … If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?”

If a brother is in prison or hungry, we should be moved with the compassion of Christ for them. There is nothing way-out about that.

Galatians 6:10 declares: “As we have therefore opportunity, let us do good unto all men, especially unto them who are of the household of faith.”


I have proven that Mathew 25:31-45 refers to the heathen, the nations of the world.

You cannot describe the sheep as heathen. They are the redeemed. Remember, they are shown in Matthew 25:31-45 to “inherit the kingdom” and “life eternal.” This can only refer to the righteous. This cannot be the heathen that miss the catching away. The goats are actually the wicked (heathen) that reject Christ and whom Christ in this reading expressly casts “into everlasting fire” and receive “everlasting punishment.” There are two peoples here as in the rest of Scripture – believers and unbelievers, one is rewarded by being ushered into the presence of God the other is condemned and immediately banished from the presence of God and eternally punished.

This is the final judgment when Jesus comes. There have only ever been two peoples on earth saved (sheep) or lost (goats). Scripture always depicts God's people as sheep and the Shepherd as Christ. Jesus declared in John 10:2-5: "he that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep ... the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out. And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice. And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers."

Jesus said in John 10:11-15: "I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep ... I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine. As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep."

wpm
Dec 16th 2008, 05:35 PM
I am completely baffled as to how anyone can say that Matthew 13, is the same event as Matthew 25? Matthew 13 speaks of the angels separating the wheat from the tares. I don't see any questions being asked. Matthew is when Christ gathers all nations to Himself, and He (not the angels) separates sheep and goats.

Let us start with a couple of questions:

When is the end of this age?

When does Christ come in power and glory?

Raybob
Dec 16th 2008, 05:40 PM
The only way it "has" to be the same is if you affix these two judgments together, which the Amil belief system sttempts to do. The simple fact is that these are NOT the same judgments, since one is affixed to the end of the world, and the other is affixed to the establishing of the Kingdom of Heaven on earth, in fulfillment of so many OT and NT scriptures, including Revelation 20:4-6.
What's the difference between "these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal" and "death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire." ???


THis is why I do not follow the Amil belief system. According to Revelation 19, the Lake is used before the GWT judgment, as the Beast and the false prophet are hurled into the Lake of Fire during the battle at Armageddon.

If you see one 'before' the other, you are looking at this as a pre-mill views it, not like Amil. Amil doesn't see Revelation as a chronological book, only pre-mill believers do.

Raybob

jeffweeder
Dec 17th 2008, 12:27 AM
I am completely baffled as to how anyone can say that Matthew 13, is the same event as Matthew 25?

Hello Partaker of Christ


MATT 13

"The one who sows the good seed is the Son of Man,
38 and the field is the world; and as for the good seed, these are the sons of the kingdom; and the tares are the sons of the evil one;
39 and the enemy who sowed them is the devil, and the harvest is the end of the age; and the reapers are angels.
40 "So just as the tares are gathered up and burned with fire, so shall it be at the end of the age.
41 "The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness,
42 and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 43 "Then THE RIGHTEOUS WILL SHINE FORTH AS THE SUN in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear.

MATT 25


30 "Throw out the worthless slave into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
31 "But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne.
32 "All the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats;
33 and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left.
34 "Then the King will say to those on His right, 'Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.
----------

"Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;

Notice that Matt 25's judgement for the goats ,is the judgement that was prepared for the devil--The Lake of Fire. Its clearly the last Judgement refered to in Revelation, as this is where he ends up.

Christ comes in glory and sits on the Great White Throne to render to everyman accordingly.


"Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.
26 "For just as the Father has life in Himself, even so He gave to the Son also to have life in Himself;
27 and He gave Him authority to execute judgment, because He is the Son of Man. 28 "Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice,
29 and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.

So yes i believe that Matt 25 supports the Amill position, as Christ comes to execute Judgement at the GWT.
More on the weeping and Gnashing of teeth-

Mtt 8

"Truly I say to you, I have not found such great faith with anyone in Israel.
11 "I say to you that many will come from east and west, and recline at the table with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven;
12 but the sons of the kingdom will be cast out into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."

MATT 24

"Who then is the faithful and sensible slave whom his master put in charge of his household to give them their food at the proper time?
46 "Blessed is that slave whom his master finds so doing when he comes.
47 "Truly I say to you that he will put him in charge of all his possessions.
48 "But if that evil slave says in his heart, 'My master is not coming for a long time,'
49 and begins to beat his fellow slaves and eat and drink with drunkards;
50 the master of that slave will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour which he does not know, 51 and will cut him in pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

LK 13

Once the head of the house gets up and shuts the door, and you begin to stand outside and knock on the door, saying, 'Lord, open up to us!' then He will answer and say to you, 'I do not know where you are from.'
26 "Then you will begin to say, 'We ate and drank in Your presence, and You taught in our streets';
27 and He will say, 'I tell you, I do not know where you are from; DEPART FROM ME, ALL YOU EVILDOERS.'
28 "In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth when you see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but yourselves being thrown out.
29 "And they will come from east and west and from north and south, and will recline at the table in the kingdom of God.
30 "And behold, some are last who will be first and some are first who will be last."

Nihil Obstat
Dec 17th 2008, 01:26 AM
Am I on everyone's ignore list...? I answered the questions - at least give me the courtesy of some feedback. My posts are Scripturally, historically, and grammatically supported, yet no one has dared to comment. Why is this so?


Let us start with a couple of questions:

When is the end of this age?

link (http://bibleforums.org/showpost.php?p=1903464&postcount=116)


When does Christ come in power and glory?

link (http://bibleforums.org/showpost.php?p=1898757&postcount=76)

jeffweeder
Dec 17th 2008, 02:16 AM
Hi

I have to disagree that the first 2 parables in MATT 25 refer to his first coming.
The whole discourse started in Matt 24, and all parables end with the place of weeping and gnashing of teeth, or the lake of fire prepared for the devil and his Angels.
In every one he is refering to his coming again and what will happen to them when he does.


MATT 24:50

the master of that slave will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour which he does not know,
51 and will cut him in pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

"Later the other virgins also came, saying, 'Lord, lord, open up for us.'
12 "But he answered, 'Truly I say to you, I do not know you.'
13 "Be on the alert then, for you do not know the day nor the hour.



25: 29
"For to everyone who has, more shall be given, and he will have an abundance; but from the one who does not have, even what he does have shall be taken away.
30 "Throw out the worthless slave into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
31 "But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne.
32 "All the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats;
33 and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left.

Raybob
Dec 17th 2008, 05:05 AM
Before Jesus came, the Jews (faithful and unfaithful alike) believed that there were only two ages: 1) the present evil age, and 2) the age to come. They believed that the Day of the Lord was the conclusion of the first and the dawning of the last. However, when Jesus came, He and His apostles brought clarity to that understanding, explaining that in between His death and Second Coming would be a transition period - a season of amnesty, as I've heard it put - when both ages would overlap.

I don't see that at all. What I see is Jesus on the Throne of David in the new covenant.

Act 2:29-32 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day. (30) Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; (31) He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption. (32) This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.

Exactly what scriptures are referring to a "season of amnesty"?

As for Ezekiel 34, I believe that is clearly about when the first coming of Jesus and the new covenant He bought with His blood.

Eze 34:24-25 And I the LORD will be their God, and my servant David a prince among them; I the LORD have spoken it. (25) And I will make with them a covenant of peace, and will cause the evil beasts to cease out of the land: and they shall dwell safely in the wilderness, and sleep in the woods.

Raybob

Nihil Obstat
Dec 17th 2008, 07:33 AM
Exactly what scriptures are referring to a "season of amnesty"?

I'll respond to the rest of your post later, but the "season of amnesty" bit was part of another paragraph that I had removed, where I spoke of the 70-80 years that we call life, and somehow forgot to erase it with the rest - it should have been deleted as well. Sorry for the confusion there; not sure how I overlooked that.

- Astro

third hero
Dec 17th 2008, 07:41 AM
What's the difference between "these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal" and "death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire." ???



If you see one 'before' the other, you are looking at this as a pre-mill views it, not like Amil. Amil doesn't see Revelation as a chronological book, only pre-mill believers do.

Raybob

Is verses 31-45 the only verses written in chapter 25?

If they were, then your point is valid.

However, they are not the only verses written in that chapter. there were at least 30 other verses, and all of them dealt with te righteous, and the separating of the righteous from the wicked, hence the parable of the ten virgins and the parable of the talents. In both of these examples, the righteos are rewarded while the wicked are separated and removed into the "weeping, and gnashing of teeth".

Now, with that information, read verse 46 again. you will notice that this verse deals with all of that chapter, including the parable of the ten virgins, the parable of the talents, and the judging of the nations, all happening at the Lord's return. This is why verse 46 is to be a stand-alone verse, for it summarizes the entire chapter, and not just the 15 verses before it.

third hero
Dec 17th 2008, 08:01 AM
When is the end of the age?

What is an age?

What constitutes an age?

What is the definition of the end of such age?

Are these questions not all subjective, as the answer depends on the point of view of the one answering them?

Case in point. The Presidency of the the United States of America is about to change hands. This means that the Age of Bush is coming to an end. But because the era of George W. Bush is ending, does that mean that it is the end of the world?

The same can be said of Biblical "ends". The world was flooded, and because of that , the world "ended". Was the world destroyed? No. Well, if that is the case, then the flood was not the end of the world, but the end of an age. It would be called, the age before the flood.

Now, let's broaden the horizons here. When God created the world, He created an age where the world was without sin. This in itself would be considered an age. That age did not last long. When Adam gave the authority of this world over to Satan by disobeying God, then another age has arisen, the age of Satan, since he is considered now to be the "god of this world".

Now, using this information alone, we can deduce that although the flood came and "destroyed" the world, the age of Satan continued, and still does to this day.

Now, according to Daniel 7, Psalm 2, Isaiah 65, and Revelation 20, there will be a time when the Lord will rule over the world while having Satan, the current proxy of this world, chained, imprisoned, and sealed away. This happens when the Lord returns.

And so, with Satan imprisoned and his authority taken from him and given to the Saints, (Daniel 7:13-14, 22, 27; Revelation 20:1-6), the age of Satan ends. But not only that, the world is "destroyed" again, this time by earthquake, (Revelation 16:17-20). Likened to the first destruction, the world is altered, and many die. However, this time, the survivors are determined by Lord Jesus, after He destroys the armies of this world and sentences the Beast and the False Prophet to the Lake. Those remnants are then ruled by Lord Jesus and the Saints, directly, as the Lord will be clearly seen on this earth, (Zechariah 14:16-20).

By this example, we see an age ending, and yet the world continues to remain. The return of the Lord signifies the end of Satan's age, while bringing about an age of perpetual peace, where the world will not see war for a very long time, as the Lord will rule the world from Jerusalem (Zechariah 14, Isaiah 65).

My point? The "End of the Age" is not the catch-all phrase for the end of the world, it never has, and truly, until the Lord defines the end of the age as the destruction of the world, it will remain as is.

third hero
Dec 17th 2008, 08:11 AM
Astrongerthanhe,

Well, I did not intentionally ignore your post about Matthew 25, but I had to focus on one argument, and so now I have time to engage in a discussion with you.

Honestly, I can not agree with your synopsis of Matthew 25:31-45, and here is why.

1. The event in question happens when the Lord establishes His throne here on earth, which accoridng to scripture, happens after the Lord banishes Satan, sentences the Beast and the False prophet to the Lake and the armies of the world are fed to the birds.

2. The judgment that is described in these verses affect those who were given opportunities to treat His brethern with care, something that the sheep does and the goats do not.

3. The throne that the Lord went to at His ascention was established long before the earth was created, (John 1:1). Therefore, the throne in heaven never had to be established, for it was always at the Father's right hand.

4. The throne that has to be established is the one mentioned in 2 Samuel 7, which is the throne on which the Lord will sit on and judge the nations. (Psalm 2, Isaiah 9:4, Zechariah 14).

Well, it's not much, but it is a start.:)

Raybob
Dec 17th 2008, 01:34 PM
Actually, the pre-mill believers are the only part of the church that see Revelation as a chronological book. I prefer to interpret the bible rather than collaborate it. To me, it's like a different gospel than the one Jesus and the apostles brought us. Jesus spoke of a last day when "..the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, and shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation."(Jo 5:28-29). Paul told us "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, ...then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds...For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief."(1Thes. 4:16-5:4)

I believed in pre-mill for over 18 years and for me, personally, to even think that anyone would survive after Jesus returned let me fall into temptation many times over. I rationalized that if I got drunk and missed the rapture, as long as I wasn't one that went to a battle over in the middle east, I could go on with life as usual and eventually ask God to forgive me for that night of sin and I'd be fine. I kept falling and kept begging God to forgive me the next day. I thought Jesus would forgive me 70x7 times. I didn't realize that 70x7 IS a finite number, not an infinite one.

Raybob

wpm
Dec 17th 2008, 05:50 PM
Now, according to Daniel 7, Psalm 2, Isaiah 65, and Revelation 20, there will be a time when the Lord will rule over the world while having Satan, the current proxy of this world, chained, imprisoned, and sealed away. This happens when the Lord returns.


You are diverting off the subject we are on. I would be happy for you to start a new thread and answer the following:

Where in Daniel 7 does it say that "there will be a time when the Lord will rule over the world while having Satan, the current proxy of this world, chained, imprisoned, and sealed away"?

Where in Psalm 2 does it say that "there will be a time when the Lord will rule over the world while having Satan, the current proxy of this world, chained, imprisoned, and sealed away"?

Where in Isaiah 65 does it say that "there will be a time when the Lord will rule over the world while having Satan, the current proxy of this world, chained, imprisoned, and sealed away"?


My point? The "End of the Age" is not the catch-all phrase for the end of the world, it never has, and truly, until the Lord defines the end of the age as the destruction of the world, it will remain as is.

When is the end of this age?

wpm
Dec 17th 2008, 06:03 PM
Is verses 31-45 the only verses written in chapter 25?

If they were, then your point is valid.

However, they are not the only verses written in that chapter. there were at least 30 other verses, and all of them dealt with te righteous, and the separating of the righteous from the wicked, hence the parable of the ten virgins and the parable of the talents. In both of these examples, the righteos are rewarded while the wicked are separated and removed into the "weeping, and gnashing of teeth".

Now, with that information, read verse 46 again. you will notice that this verse deals with all of that chapter, including the parable of the ten virgins, the parable of the talents, and the judging of the nations, all happening at the Lord's return. This is why verse 46 is to be a stand-alone verse, for it summarizes the entire chapter, and not just the 15 verses before it.

I see it different. The sheep are seen in Matthew 25:31-45 to “inherit the kingdom” and “life eternal.” This cannot in any way refer to the heathen, as we know the wicked are strictly forbidden entry to that glorious eternal domain. The sheep are clearly the redeemed. This favoured designation can only refer to the righteous. This cannot in any way encompass the heathen that miss the catching away. The goats are actually the wicked that reject Christ and whom Christ in this reading consequently casts “into everlasting fire” and receive “everlasting punishment.”

When we examine the judicial sentences which are met out to the sheep and the goats when Jesus returns we see two diametrically opposing verdicts and outcomes. This shows us that they relate to two diametrically opposing peoples. First we learn that the sheep are placed on Christ’s right hand. The goats are then put on His left hand. Matthew 25 tells us that the sheep are “blessed” (in fact Jesus describes them as “ye blessed of my Father”), and are rewarded for their faithfulness to the Lord by being ushered into eternal bliss. This cannot in any way refer the unregenerate. The goats on the other hand are “cursed.” This condemnation can only apply to the wicked.

The sheep hear those wonderful words: “inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.” The kingdom of heaven is seen here to be a prepared place for a prepared people. No wicked inherit it. This can never therefore refer to the unsaved; neither can it be directed towards a whole nation or number of nations. After all, nations possess both saved and unsaved. What is more, the wicked normally make up the overwhelming majority of even the most respectable of nations.

No unsaved person is going to hear those cherished words “Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world,” rather they will hear them awful words: “Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels” (Matthew 25:41). This sentence is one that exclusively pertains to the goats in this parable, otherwise known in Scripture as wicked or the unrighteous.

There are two peoples here as in the rest of Scripture – believers and unbelievers, one is rewarded by being ushered into the presence of God the other is condemned and immediately banished from the presence of God and eternally punished.

Nihil Obstat
Dec 17th 2008, 07:55 PM
Hi

I have to disagree that the first 2 parables in MATT 25 refer to his first coming.
The whole discourse started in Matt 24, and all parables end with the place of weeping and gnashing of teeth, or the lake of fire prepared for the devil and his Angels.
In every one he is refering to his coming again and what will happen to them when he does.

Well, again, Jesus begins with speaking of His generation (23:31-36; 24:2), then undoubtedly speaks of His second coming, but then concludes all of His sayings by reminding His friends once more that He must suffer death (26:1-2; this chapter break is not inspired of the Holy Spirit). There is then a transition somewhere in the discourse when He once more speaks of His own generation, and my guess is that it is in (or around) 24:43, as this parable is paralleled in Luke 12:39-53 which obviously is about His first coming and the offense of the cross. The remainder of the discourse (ch.25) also concerns His first coming. He's saying: In light of the glory and power of the judgment meted out at the cross, live thusly. In John 3:18 we read that those who did not believe in Jesus - in His generation - that these were already condemned. Matthew is simply saying the same thing here in ch.25 as John said.

- Astro

Nihil Obstat
Dec 17th 2008, 08:14 PM
I don't see that at all. What I see is Jesus on the Throne of David in the new covenant.

Act 2:29-32 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day. (30) Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; (31) He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption. (32) This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.

There's been a fairly recent thread concerning this very topic, about where the throne of David is / will be, and whether or not Jesus is presently sitting on it. I think Scripture is clear that Jesus is not now seated on David's throne, as the covenant made with David spoke of a throne in Jerusalem on earth, which is not yet realized. I think Luke 19:11-27 is also clearly telling us that the kingdom will not come until Jesus comes, as He is the King. Do a word study on "kingdom [of heaven / God]" in the NT, and what will be made overwhelmingly obvious is that the kingdom is still to come. The kingdom was near because Jesus was in their midst, but it has not yet been established (Luke 22:17-18). One of my teachers at the ministry school I attend points out that after Pentecost, the word "kingdom" occurs only five times (in Acts) and none are in the present tense. Also that in the epistles the kingdom and its expectations are all future. I say all that to say this: In Peter's discourse in Acts 2, he was far from saying that the King was seated on David throne now, nor was he saying that His kingdom had come - he was merely saying that the sign of the promised Davidic King was that He would be raised from the dead, and that only Jesus meets that prophetic word. One day the King will return, and those who are in opposition to Him and His kingdom's principles will be destroyed, but how He will judge and by what authority came by way of His crucifixion - the throne of His glory.

- Astro

quiet dove
Dec 17th 2008, 08:29 PM
Actually, the pre-mill believers are the only part of the church that see Revelation as a chronological book. I prefer to interpret the bible rather than collaborate it. To me, it's like a different gospel than the one Jesus and the apostles brought us. Jesus spoke of a last day when "..the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, and shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation."(Jo 5:28-29). Paul told us "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, ...then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds...For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief."(1Thes. 4:16-5:4)

I believed in pre-mill for over 18 years and for me, personally, to even think that anyone would survive after Jesus returned let me fall into temptation many times over. I rationalized that if I got drunk and missed the rapture, as long as I wasn't one that went to a battle over in the middle east, I could go on with life as usual and eventually ask God to forgive me for that night of sin and I'd be fine. I kept falling and kept begging God to forgive me the next day. I thought Jesus would forgive me 70x7 times. I didn't realize that 70x7 IS a finite number, not an infinite one.

Raybob

It hits me different, as far as the rapture goes, knowing I could see my Savior in the twinkling of an eye tends to make me all the more determined to be doing something pleasing in his site at all times. That is not to say I have always been successful, but it is my desire to be.

And if the rapture happened tomorrow and I found myself still here, I think, as opposed to getting smashed, I would be on my knees seeking Him because apparently I was not truly His and that would be most terrifying to say the least. But I guess it is all in what ones perspective is.

I trust very much in Jesus forgiveness, but I also have no desire to see how many times 70x7 is, I would rather be striving to walk according to His will.

With mod hat on
A different Gospel. I have not seen any pre miller here teach salvation through any other than Jesus Christ, please be careful with that accusation. Pre mil does not deny or disagree with Jon 5 as you insinuate. Everyone needs to be careful with their insinuations here.

This is not a bash our brothers view forum, it is a discuss to learn forum, that applies to all posters

Nihil Obstat
Dec 17th 2008, 08:33 PM
Astrongerthanhe,

Well, I did not intentionally ignore your post about Matthew 25, but I had to focus on one argument, and so now I have time to engage in a discussion with you.

Honestly, I can not agree with your synopsis of Matthew 25:31-45, and here is why.

1. The event in question happens when the Lord establishes His throne here on earth, which according to scripture, happens after the Lord banishes Satan, sentences the Beast and the False prophet to the Lake and the armies of the world are fed to the birds.

Jesus is King of kings apart from having a throne established in Jerusalem. All throughout the book of Matthew, Jesus refers to Himself and is proclaimed by others to be Israel's King, and this apart from a manifest throne. But His glorification came at His crucifixion, as John 12:23-41 makes overly plain, and many other Scripture passages as well. When studying the sheep and goats judgment, note that He does not say that this will happen when the nations are gathered together before Him, but rather that when He comes into His glory (at the cross) then the nations will be gathered to Him to be judged - do you see the difference? It's a huge difference, actually. To decide when this takes place by the nations being gathered would be a logical fallacy, as the nations gathered are not the cause but the effect; the cause is the Son of Man in His glory. Do you see what I mean by this?


2. The judgment that is described in these verses affect those who were given opportunities to treat His brethern with care, something that the sheep does and the goats do not.

Not sure how this matters...?


3. The throne that the Lord went to at His ascension was established long before the earth was created, (John 1:1). Therefore, the throne in heaven never had to be established, for it was always at the Father's right hand.

Again, not sure your point here?


4. The throne that has to be established is the one mentioned in 2 Samuel 7, which is the throne on which the Lord will sit on and judge the nations. (Psalm 2, Isaiah 9:4, Zechariah 14).

Well, it's not much, but it is a start.:)

I agree with you. But what's this have to do with what we're discussing?

Sorry that I'm confused! This medium of interaction does have its ups and downs... - Astro

BoParker
Dec 17th 2008, 08:41 PM
RJ,

Here is a twist. A reading that all of the nations is everyone EXCEPT those who have chosen to become disciples.

A key idea to this reading is that the scene seems to require not two, but three groups of people. Jesus needs to be pointing to a group of people when he identifies the least of these brothers of mine. If there are only two groups, how does he refer to the least of these brothers of mine? If we look back over chapter 24 we can see where another group of people may be present. As Jesus describes the second coming, it seems to be a two stage event. The first stage is described in verses 24:30-31. Here the Son of Man comes on the clouds of the sky and sends his angels to gather his elect from one end of the heavens to the other. The following passages are speaking to disciples about their judgment. Then in 25:31-32 the Son of Man sits on the throne and all the nations of the earth are gathered before Him. If this is describing a two stage event (although there could be very little time between them), the elect have already been gathered and are present as the group that Jesus refers to when He refers to these brothers of mine (which in Matthew is always a reference to disciples and not mankind).

The controversial idea is that people who are not disciples of Jesus, not the elect, will enter into heaven based on their treatment of disciples (probably persecuted disciples). This seems bizarre, but the idea of reward given on the basis of treatment of disciples has some precedence in Matthew 10:40-42. There is also the case of Rahab who is spared judgment because of how she treated the spies of Israel. She alone is allowed to live in Israel.

If this reading is accurate, this teaching is not meant for those who do not know Christ, but rather for disciples. The main point of the teaching is that persecuted disciples are not forgotten by Jesus at all. He radically identifies with their plight, treating treatment of them as treatment of Himself. It is primarily a message of encouragement to persecuted believers.

Nihil Obstat
Dec 17th 2008, 08:47 PM
...I also have no desire to see how many times 70x7 is...

Actually, this is a glorious phrase, as it is the number of years that Israel forsook the Lord, which is what Dan. 9 is all about. In other words, Jesus was saying that you need to forgive not a certain number of times, but rather as God forgives Israel, which is our hope and salvation!


I believed in pre-mill for over 18 years and for me, personally, to even think that anyone would survive after Jesus returned let me fall into temptation many times over. I rationalized that if I got drunk and missed the rapture, as long as I wasn't one that went to a battle over in the middle east, I could go on with life as usual and eventually ask God to forgive me for that night of sin and I'd be fine. I kept falling and kept begging God to forgive me the next day. I thought Jesus would forgive me 70x7 times. I didn't realize that 70x7 IS a finite number, not an infinite one.

Raybob

Hey bud, please understand my heart when I say that you did not fall into this repeated sin because of your view on the millennium or when the rapture would occur, but because you misunderstood and therefore misused God's forgiveness. In other words, it was the character and nature of God that you were walking contrary to. God forgives sin, but not in order that we might sin more! God gives us grace not as a license to sin, but in order that we might walk empowered by that grace to hate sin and love righteousness!

- Astro

Raybob
Dec 17th 2008, 09:27 PM
There's been a fairly recent thread concerning this very topic, about where the throne of David is / will be, and whether or not Jesus is presently sitting on it. I think Scripture is clear that Jesus is not now seated on David's throne

So do you believe Acts 2:29-34 is not literal?


Do a word study on "kingdom [of heaven / God]" in the NT, and what will be made overwhelmingly obvious is that the kingdom is still to come. The kingdom was near because Jesus was in their midst, but it has not yet been established (Luke 22:17-18). One of my teachers at the ministry school I attend points out that after Pentecost, the word "kingdom" occurs only five times (in Acts) and none are in the present tense.
I count six times in Acts after Pentecost so If I were you, I wouldn't go to that school. Not one of those mentions are in a future tense. Let the Holy Spirit be your teacher.

Act 28:23 And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into his lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and out of the prophets, from morning till evening.

If that isn't present tense, I'd eat my hat. :lol:


Also that in the epistles the kingdom and its expectations are all future.

Heb 12:28 Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:

What's "future" about that???

Raybob

Raybob
Dec 17th 2008, 09:32 PM
Hey bud, please understand my heart when I say that you did not fall into this repeated sin because of your view on the millennium or when the rapture would occur, but because you misunderstood and therefore misused God's forgiveness. In other words, it was the character and nature of God that you were walking contrary to. God forgives sin, but not in order that we might sin more! God gives us grace not as a license to sin, but in order that we might walk empowered by that grace to hate sin and love righteousness!

- Astro

Actually, I had "said" Jesus is Lord and thought I was saved because I had "said" that but I was still the ultimate ruler (Lord) of my life. Jesus was not, at that time, the ultimate ruler (Lord) of my personal life. Yes, I believed He was God but I wasn't fully submitted to Him at that time.

Raybob

Nihil Obstat
Dec 17th 2008, 09:49 PM
There are two peoples here as in the rest of Scripture – believers and unbelievers, one is rewarded by being ushered into the presence of God the other is condemned and immediately banished from the presence of God and eternally punished.

I hear you say this a lot. Who then, to you, is Thomas (John 20:24-29)? Or Cornelius (Acts 10)? Or John's disciples (Acts 19:1-7)? Or who was Raybob, if I may, when he was given to drunkenness? I think perhaps there are more than just two types of people living on earth - yes, in death, there are two, but in this life I think there are more. There are the rebellious, the compromising, the oppressed, the confused, the unreached, the unborn, etc. etc. etc. Hopefully you understand my meaning.

- Astro

wpm
Dec 17th 2008, 10:12 PM
I hear you say this a lot. Who then, to you, is Thomas (John 20:24-29)? Or Cornelius (Acts 10)? Or John's disciples (Acts 19:1-7)? Or who was Raybob, if I may, when he was given to drunkenness? I think perhaps there are more than just two types of people living on earth - yes, in death, there are two, but in this life I think there are more. There are the rebellious, the compromising, the oppressed, the confused, the unreached, the unborn, etc. etc. etc. Hopefully you understand my meaning.

- Astro

Saved or lost, heaven or hell. It has always been that way.

RevLogos
Dec 17th 2008, 10:41 PM
There's been a fairly recent thread concerning this very topic, about where the throne of David is / will be, and whether or not Jesus is presently sitting on it. I think Scripture is clear that Jesus is not now seated on David's throne, as the covenant made with David spoke of a throne in Jerusalem on earth, which is not yet realized. I think Luke 19:11-27 is also clearly telling us that the kingdom will not come until Jesus comes, as He is the King. Do a word study on "kingdom [of heaven / God]" in the NT, and what will be made overwhelmingly obvious is that the kingdom is still to come. The kingdom was near because Jesus was in their midst, but it has not yet been established (Luke 22:17-18). One of my teachers at the ministry school I attend points out that after Pentecost, the word "kingdom" occurs only five times (in Acts) and none are in the present tense. Also that in the epistles the kingdom and its expectations are all future.
- Astro

The kingdom of God is what Jesus preached. Everything He said pertained directly to the Kingdom of God. It is not of this earth, and flesh and blood cannot enter. The unrighteous cannot enter.

The kingdom of God exists now, and has existed forever. There is no future about it. In the Gospels we are given many parables describing what the kingdom of God IS, not will be. In Acts, the kingdom is mentioned 8 times, 7 after Pentecost. The apostles preach the good news about the kingdom of God. Never do they preach the good news about some future kingdom of God. It exists now but is not of this world; it is and always will be a spiritual kingdom.

In Paul's letters, he most often speaks about who will inherent the kingdom of God, but never implies the kingdom itself is future. Whenever Paul refers to the kingdom itself it is in present tense, such as:
1Co 4:20 For the kingdom of God is not a matter of talk but of power.

Rom 14:17 For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit,
John rarely uses the phrase, and then only when quoting Jesus:
Joh 18:36 Jesus said, "My kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight to prevent my arrest by the Jews. But now my kingdom is from another place."
Nothing future about this. It is only our inheritance that is to come. If Jesus isn’t sitting on the throne, who is?
Heb 1:7 In speaking of the angels he says, "He makes his angels winds, his servants flames of fire."
Heb 1:8 But about the Son he says, "Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever, and righteousness will be the scepter of your kingdom.
Jesus Himself tells us exactly when He took a seat on the throne when speaking through John to the Laodiceans:
Rev 3:20 Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with him, and he with me.
Rev 3:21 To him who overcomes, I will give the right to sit with me on my throne, just as I overcame and sat down with my Father on his throne.
Rev 3:22 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches."
And that, as you are fond of saying, is the message of the cross.

Partaker of Christ
Dec 17th 2008, 11:10 PM
Let us start with a couple of questions:

When is the end of this age?

When does Christ come in power and glory?

At 0900 18th September 2012 :rolleyes:

Why not just try helping me out?

wpm
Dec 17th 2008, 11:30 PM
RJ,

Here is a twist. A reading that all of the nations is everyone EXCEPT those who have chosen to become disciples.

A key idea to this reading is that the scene seems to require not two, but three groups of people. Jesus needs to be pointing to a group of people when he identifies the least of these brothers of mine. If there are only two groups, how does he refer to the least of these brothers of mine? If we look back over chapter 24 we can see where another group of people may be present. As Jesus describes the second coming, it seems to be a two stage event. The first stage is described in verses 24:30-31. Here the Son of Man comes on the clouds of the sky and sends his angels to gather his elect from one end of the heavens to the other. The following passages are speaking to disciples about their judgment. Then in 25:31-32 the Son of Man sits on the throne and all the nations of the earth are gathered before Him. If this is describing a two stage event (although there could be very little time between them), the elect have already been gathered and are present as the group that Jesus refers to when He refers to these brothers of mine (which in Matthew is always a reference to disciples and not mankind).

The controversial idea is that people who are not disciples of Jesus, not the elect, will enter into heaven based on their treatment of disciples (probably persecuted disciples). This seems bizarre, but the idea of reward given on the basis of treatment of disciples has some precedence in Matthew 10:40-42. There is also the case of Rahab who is spared judgment because of how she treated the spies of Israel. She alone is allowed to live in Israel.

If this reading is accurate, this teaching is not meant for those who do not know Christ, but rather for disciples. The main point of the teaching is that persecuted disciples are not forgotten by Jesus at all. He radically identifies with their plight, treating treatment of them as treatment of Himself. It is primarily a message of encouragement to persecuted believers.

But sheep are sheep, goats are goats. There is no 3rd group. There has never been a 3rd group. Are you insinuating that these brethren are not sheep?

jeffweeder
Dec 18th 2008, 12:09 AM
The disciples were Sheep, for they were scattered.


And Jesus said to them, "You will all fall away, because it is written, 'I WILL STRIKE DOWN THE SHEPHERD, AND THE SHEEP SHALL BE SCATTERED.'
28 "But after I have been raised, I will go ahead of you to Galilee."





ZECH 13
7 "Awake, O sword, against My Shepherd,
And against the man, My Associate,"
Declares the LORD of hosts.
"Strike the Shepherd that the sheep may be scattered;
And I will turn My hand against the little ones.


8 "It will come about in all the land,"
Declares the LORD,
"That two parts in it will be cut off and perish;
But the third will be left in it.


9 "And I will bring the third part through the fire,
Refine them as silver is refined,
And test them as gold is tested.
They will call on My name,
And I will answer them;
I will say, 'They are My people,'
And they will say, 'The LORD is my God.' "


"I am the good shepherd; the good shepherd lays down His life for the sheep

Jn 21
"Simon, son of John, do you love Me?" He said to Him, "Yes, Lord; You know that I love You." He said to him, "Shepherd My sheep."

Jesus laid his life down for the sheep, so the sheep that are seperated from the nations is the church-



John 10
I am the good shepherd, and I know My own and My own know Me,
15 even as the Father knows Me and I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep.
16 "I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will hear My voice; and they will become one flock with one shepherd.

Nihil Obstat
Dec 18th 2008, 02:52 PM
So do you believe Acts 2:29-34 is not literal?

Of course it's literal - when did I insinuate that it wasn't? My point is that when Peter quoted David, there was no mention of the Christ being seated on his throne. David merely said that the Christ would be raised up. Only Jesus' body did not see corruption, therefore only Jesus could be the Christ - this was Peter's point.


I count six times in Acts after Pentecost so If I were you, I wouldn't go to that school. Not one of those mentions are in a future tense. Let the Holy Spirit be your teacher.

Cute - my guess is that blueletterbible or biblegateway was your teacher. But that was my mistake (not his), and I never said that the connotation was future (in Acts) - just that it wasn't present. The reason for giving an exact number (six, as you corrected me) is to point out the stark contrast of how (and of how many times) the kingdom was preached before Pentecost and after Pentecost.


Act 28:23 And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into his lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and out of the prophets, from morning till evening.

If that isn't present tense, I'd eat my hat.

The kingdom isn't present tense...


Heb 12:28 Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:

What's "future" about that???

Raybob

The entire context insists that this verse is yet future; no one could possibly argue against that.

- Astro

David Taylor
Dec 18th 2008, 03:03 PM
The kingdom isn't present tense...



What tense are these verses about the kingdom in?


Luke 1:31 "And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS. He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
1:33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end."

Luke 17:21 "the kingdom of God is within you."
John 18:36 "Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world"
Acts 14:22 "we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God."
Romans 14:17 "the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost."
Colossians 1:12 "the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light: Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins"
I Thessalonians 2:12 "That ye would walk worthy of God, who hath called you unto his kingdom and glory."
2 Thessalonians 1:4 "So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure: Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer"
Revelation 1:9 "I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom of Jesus Christ"


Is the Kingdom not ongoing and everlasting; and didn't it begin to be populated centuries ago?

Nihil Obstat
Dec 18th 2008, 03:47 PM
What tense are these verses about the kingdom in?


Luke 1:31 "And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS. He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
1:33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end."

He SHALL reign. Sounds future to me.



Luke 17:21 "the kingdom of God is within you."

A misinterpretation. The kingdom was NOT within this unrepentant Pharisee. The correct translation is "in your midst". I spoke on this earlier.



John 18:36 "Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world"

And...? Of course it wasn't OF this world - that has no bearing on the fact that it will be IN this world.



Acts 14:22 "we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God."

Future (cp. Heb. 11).



Romans 14:17 "the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost."

This is speaking of kingdom principles, a timeless truth which has no bearing on this either.



Colossians 1:12 "the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light: Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins"

You're telling me that you no longer come into agreement with the kingdom of darkness...? (1 John 1:8) See my post on "ages".



I Thessalonians 2:12 "That ye would walk worthy of God, who hath called you unto his kingdom and glory."

We've been called there. That means we're not there. Pretty clear, in my opinion.



2 Thessalonians 1:4 "So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure: Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer"

That you MAY BE is, again, future. We suffer for a FUTURE hope.



Revelation 1:9 "I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom of Jesus Christ"

If the kingdom was fully realized on earth, then John would have had all of Jesus' angels fighting against his Roman persecutors (Matt. 26:53; John 18:36). So once again, future.


- Astro

RevLogos
Dec 18th 2008, 04:28 PM
The entire context insists that this verse is yet future; no one could possibly argue against that.

- Astro

That the kingdom of God has always existed, and always will, are by far the most persuasive. All of the references to the kingdom of God, or of Christ, or of heaven, are all present tense. Nowhere is to be found a verse that says the kingdom will be created when...

There are a couple of times in the Gospels, before the resurrection, when something like "the kingdom of God is in your midst" or "the kingdom of God is near" is said. Each of these refer to Jesus on this earth prior to His resurrection and ascension to the throne. It refers to proximity, not time. They say "is" not "will be". ALL other verses relating to the kingdom of God show that it does exist and has always existed, and always will. ALL use present tense. The only future thing is in who inherits this kingdom.

As has been pointed out, the actual event of Jesus sitting on the throne, occurred at the cross, and is shown in past tense to the letter to the Laodiceans in:

Rev 3:21 To him who overcomes, I will give the right to sit with me on my throne, just as I overcame and sat down with my Father on his throne.

"It is finished." Contemplate what that means.

RevLogos
Dec 18th 2008, 04:34 PM
If the kingdom was fully realized on earth, then John would have had all of Jesus' angels fighting against his Roman persecutors (Matt. 26:53; John 18:36). So once again, future.

- Astro

We are told the kingdom of God is NOT of this earth. That is a characteristic of the kingdom. It is a spiritual kingdom. Flesh and blood will never inherit the kingdom. Jesus will never sit on a throne on this earth.

John, in Revelation, sees the throne "in the spirit". He never sees it on this earth. Even Revelation 20 never says the throne is on this earth.

David Taylor
Dec 18th 2008, 04:46 PM
That the kingdom of God has always existed, and always will, are by far the most persuasive. All of the references to the kingdom of God, or of Christ, or of heaven, are all present tense. Nowhere is to be found a verse that says the kingdom will be created when...

There are a couple of times in the Gospels, before the resurrection, when something like "the kingdom of God is in your midst" or "the kingdom of God is near" is said. Each of these refer to Jesus on this earth prior to His resurrection and ascension to the throne. It refers to proximity, not time. They say "is" not "will be". ALL other verses relating to the kingdom of God show that it does exist and has always existed, and always will. ALL use present tense. The only future thing is in who inherits this kingdom.

As has been pointed out, the actual event of Jesus sitting on the throne, occurred at the cross, and is shown in past tense to the letter to the Laodiceans in:

Rev 3:21 To him who overcomes, I will give the right to sit with me on my throne, just as I overcame and sat down with my Father on his throne.

"It is finished." Contemplate what that means.


The Psalmist and OT prophets corrobarate your understanding of the Kingdom of God always existing...always in the present tense. It is available to each human do join into and participate within...during their lives. It shall never end.

Psalms 145:13 "Thy kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and thy dominion endureth throughout all generations."

Psalms 10:16 "The LORD is King for ever and ever"

Psalms 29:10 "the LORD sitteth King for ever. "

Psalms 103:19 "The LORD hath prepared his throne in the heavens; and his kingdom ruleth over all."

Daniel 4:3 "How great are his signs! and how mighty are his wonders! his kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and his dominion is from generation to generation."

Daniel 4:34 "I blessed the most High, and I praised and honoured him that liveth for ever, whose dominion is an everlasting dominion, and his kingdom is from generation to generation:"

Daniel 6:26 "the God of Daniel: for he is the living God, and stedfast for ever, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed, and his dominion shall be even unto the end."

Daniel 7:13 "I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed. "

Nihil Obstat
Dec 18th 2008, 06:48 PM
In no way am I suggesting that there is no kingdom in heaven, or that the kingdom in heaven isn't eternal, but we're not discussing the kingdom IN heaven - we're talking about the kingdom OF heaven COMING to earth, and that this will only be fully realized in the FUTURE. This kingdom will not be created, but established on the earth when Jesus returns to this earth at His second coming. The oath given to David (Acts 2:30) was that his seed would sit on his (David's) throne forever - his throne on earth in Jerusalem (2 Sam. 7:5-16). This coming king would not see corruption (Ps. 16:10), and only Jesus fulfills this prophecy, and is therefore the Seed who was promised to David who will one day sit as King in Jerusalem on earth. The kingdom is a future reality.

- Astro

Raybob
Dec 18th 2008, 08:02 PM
In no way am I suggesting that there is no kingdom in heaven, or that the kingdom in heaven isn't eternal, but we're not discussing the kingdom IN heaven - we're talking about the kingdom OF heaven COMING to earth, and that this will only be fully realized in the FUTURE. This kingdom will not be created, but established on the earth when Jesus returns to this earth at His second coming. The oath given to David (Acts 2:30) was that his seed would sit on his (David's) throne forever - his throne on earth in Jerusalem (2 Sam. 7:5-16). This coming king would not see corruption (Ps. 16:10), and only Jesus fulfills this prophecy, and is therefore the Seed who was promised to David who will one day sit as King in Jerusalem on earth. The kingdom is a future reality.

- Astro

Heb 8:1-2 Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens; (2) A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man.

Do you expect Jesus to leave that throne He's on to come and sit on a literal throne on this earth, only to be attacked by Satan after 1000 years or so?

Raybob

Nihil Obstat
Dec 18th 2008, 08:38 PM
Heb 8:1-2 Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens; (2) A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man.

Do you expect Jesus to leave that throne He's on to come and sit on a literal throne on this earth, only to be attacked by Satan after 1000 years or so?

Raybob

Yes, of course. The covenantal promises in their fullness all necessarily involve Jesus ruling and reigning from Jerusalem on earth. If you consider yourself to be an inheritor of the New (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Jeremiah%2031:31-34;&version=50;) covenant, then you are also an inheritor of the Abrahamic (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis%2015;&version=50;), Deuteronomic (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Deuteronomy%2029-30&version=50), and Davidic (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Samuel%207:5-16;&version=50;) covenants as well. Yet none of these are presently fully realized (as Hebrews 8-12 makes plain; indeed, as life as we know it testifies). Only the Mosaic (Old) covenant was completed at the cross - there is a huge difference: the Old covenant was to reveal to us that we cannot keep the law, whereas the New makes us able to keep the law. And it is by keeping the law that we share in the promises of the covenants. Our hope is not that we will be removed from this earth, but rather that heaven will come to earth (ours is the only religion where God comes to us). God is coming to make all things new, not all new things. Amen!

- Astro

RevLogos
Dec 18th 2008, 08:43 PM
In no way am I suggesting that there is no kingdom in heaven, or that the kingdom in heaven isn't eternal, but we're not discussing the kingdom IN heaven - we're talking about the kingdom OF heaven COMING to earth, and that this will only be fully realized in the FUTURE. This kingdom will not be created, but established on the earth when Jesus returns to this earth at His second coming. The oath given to David (Acts 2:30) was that his seed would sit on his (David's) throne forever - his throne on earth in Jerusalem (2 Sam. 7:5-16). This coming king would not see corruption (Ps. 16:10), and only Jesus fulfills this prophecy, and is therefore the Seed who was promised to David who will one day sit as King in Jerusalem on earth. The kingdom is a future reality.

- Astro

Jesus sat on the throne after His resurrection. It is established. "It is finished". Show me a verse where Paul or any other apostle, tells us the kingdom of God comes to earth. Its as if "on earth" is being added to scripture everywhere "kingdom" appears. It just isn't there.
Act 2:33 Exalted to the right hand of God, he has received from the Father the promised Holy Spirit and has poured out what you now see and hear.
Act 2:34 For David did not ascend to heaven, and yet he said, "'The Lord said to my Lord: "Sit at my right hand
Act 2:35 until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet."'
David did not ascend to heaven. Jesus did. Jesus sits at the right hand of God. Where is God?

Peter is referring back to this promise:
2Sa 7:12 When your days are over and you rest with your fathers, I will raise up your offspring to succeed you, who will come from your own body, and I will establish his kingdom.
2Sa 7:13 He is the one who will build a house for my Name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom forever.
It does NOT say what you say it says, that it would be on David's throne in Jerusalem. It is a new throne that is being established.

Jesus conquered death and sat on the throne after the cross:
Rev 3:21 To him who overcomes, I will give the right to sit with me on my throne, just as I overcame and sat down with my Father on his throne.
The Jews thought there would be a Davidic king and because of this belief they rejected the truth of Jesus. They were WRONG! The throne of the kingdom was established the moment Jesus sat on it, at the resurrection. It is eternal, “for ever and ever”, side by side with God. Flesh and blood are no longer relevant.

Nihil Obstat
Dec 18th 2008, 10:07 PM
Jesus sat on the throne after His resurrection. It is established. "It is finished". Show me a verse where Paul or any other apostle, tells us the kingdom of God comes to earth. Its as if "on earth" is being added to scripture everywhere "kingdom" appears. It just isn't there.

No, He was to sit on His Father's throne UNTIL (Acts 2:35 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts%202:34-35;&version=50;); cp. Rev. 11:15 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation%2011:15&version=50)). We are to pray for the kingdom to come (Matt. 6:10). The expectation was that the kingdom was to come, and Jesus did not change that - what He did change was when it would, for many "thought the kingdom of God would appear immediately" (Luke 19:11). After Jesus was resurrected, He spoke to His disciples for forty days of the kingdom of God (Acts 1:3), at the end of which they still expected it to be restored to Israel (v.6), a truth He did not deny, but again rather revealed that it would not come when they expected it to (v.7-8). Later in 3:19-21, Peter understood rightly that Israel had to repent of their sins before Jesus would return as King in Jerusalem as promised by covenant.


- Astro

Nihil Obstat
Dec 18th 2008, 11:38 PM
Flesh and blood are no longer relevant.

Could you explain your meaning here? At first I feared you were speaking of physical material (which would be Gnostic), but now I fear you are speaking of the Jews, Israel, and Jerusalem. Thanks.

- Astro

Nihil Obstat
Dec 19th 2008, 02:20 AM
Act 2:33 Exalted to the right hand of God, he has received from the Father the promised Holy Spirit and has poured out what you now see and hear.
Act 2:34 For David did not ascend to heaven, and yet he said, "'The Lord said to my Lord: "Sit at my right hand
Act 2:35 until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet."'
David did not ascend to heaven. Jesus did. Jesus sits at the right hand of God. Where is God?

Peter is referring back to this promise:
2Sa 7:12 When your days are over and you rest with your fathers, I will raise up your offspring to succeed you, who will come from your own body, and I will establish his kingdom.
2Sa 7:13 He is the one who will build a house for my Name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom forever.
It does NOT say what you say it says, that it would be on David's throne
in Jerusalem. It is a new throne that is being established.

The main point of Acts 2 was not that Jesus is seated on David's throne, but that He was raised up - and this not to the Father in heaven, but from Hades and corruption. But when Peter does speak of Christ's exaltation to the right hand of God, he did not say that He received the promised throne of David - no, instead Peter tells us that He received the promised Holy Spirit, and that He poured the Spirit out upon them as He promised in 1:8 - and why did He say He would first do this? - in order that the kingdom might be restored to Israel as promised!

The promises of this are found in the covenants (that I've made links to in a previous post (http://bibleforums.org/showpost.php?p=1911324&postcount=167)), and they speak of a physical kingdom on the earth in the land promised to Abraham (Gen. 12:1, 7; 13:14-15, 17; 14:19, 22; 15:7-21; etc), that would one day be inhabited by the descendants promised to Abraham, who would be governed by the King promised to Abraham (Gen. 12:2, 7; 13:15-16; 15:2-6, 13-16, 18; etc), and that God would forgive them of their sins, bless them, and be their God (Gen. 12:3, 5; 14:14; 15:14; etc). You will see that the Deuteronomic, Davidic, and New covenants all flesh out these three highlighted facets of the Abrahamic covenant, which is why God promised to David a throne in Jerusalem in 2 Sam. 7:12-16. That these covenantal promises still stand post-Pentecost is testified of in Acts 1:6-8; 2:30; 3:18-26; 13:22-39; 15:14-18; 26:22-23; 28:23 - and that's not even delving into the epistles.

Therefore, the burden of the proof is on you, not me. Where does Jesus or His Spirit-filled apostles ever redefine these covenantal promises as now being only realized in heaven, specifically concerning the promises of the kingdom on earth and its throne in Jerusalem?

- Astro

Nihil Obstat
Dec 19th 2008, 03:07 AM
When is the end of this age?

Which one are you referring to? There's two ages overlapping right now, and both have fairly obvious answers to your question: the present evil age is just that - present (Gal. 1:3-5), which ends for you when you cease from sinning (partially when you are born again, but fully when you receive your resurrected body; 1 Cor. 15:51-54), but which ends corporately when Death and Hell are destroyed (again, partially at the cross, but fully at the great white throne judgment; Rev. 20:14); and the age to come will never end, yet it is present right now as well (as evidenced by comparing Joel 2:12-29 with Acts 2:1-18). This truth is evidenced by the fact that Spirit-filled believers in Jesus still sin and die: the indwelling Spirit is an "age to come" sign, and sin and death are "present evil age" signs.

Oh, and instead of completely ignoring my post yet again, I'd enjoy it if you at least partially responded to it by letting us all in on how you would answer your own question (since you've asked it a number of times). Thanks!

- Astro

Nihil Obstat
Dec 19th 2008, 11:25 PM
The apostles preach the good news about the kingdom of God. Never do they preach the good news about some future kingdom of God. ... All of the references to the kingdom of God, or of Christ, or of heaven, are all present tense. ... Jesus will never sit on a throne on this earth. ... Show me a verse where Paul or any other apostle, tells us the kingdom of God comes to earth. Its as if "on earth" is being added to scripture everywhere "kingdom" appears. It just isn't there.

If you're interested, I'd love to discuss all this with you... what's your understanding of the gospel of the kingdom?

RevLogos
Dec 19th 2008, 11:50 PM
If you're interested, I'd love to discuss all this with you... what's your understanding of the gospel of the kingdom?

I think, as far as the OP goes - the question of Matthew 25:31-46, that this thread has run its course. But a number of other questions have been raised. You will get better participation if you start a new thread; please do so if you want. I might join as long as it remains reasonably civil.

wpm
Dec 20th 2008, 04:40 AM
I think, as far as the OP goes - the question of Matthew 25:31-46, that this thread has run its course. But a number of other questions have been raised. You will get better participation if you start a new thread; please do so if you want. I might join as long as it remains reasonably civil.

Aftrer following this whole thread, I feel there are a few important absolutes that are worth noting and summing up with.

(1) This is referring to the Second Coming of the Lord Jesus Christ.
(2) The Lord only encounters two types of people when He returns.
(3) These are both judged at His appearing.
(4) One group is portrayed as righteous and is the subject of blessing and reward.
(5) The other group is portrayed as wicked and is the subject of God’s wrath and punished.
(6) They are before the exact same throne at the exact same time.
(7) The good receive eternal life.
(8) The bad obtain eternal punishment.
(9) There is absolutely no mention of, or allowance made for, a third group.

My heart's Desire
Dec 20th 2008, 04:51 AM
Aftrer following this whole thread, I feel there are a few important absolutes that are worth noting and summing up with.

(1) This is referring to the Second Coming of the Lord Jesus Christ.
(2) The Lord only encounters two types of people when He returns.
(3) These are both judged at His appearing.
(4) One group is portrayed as righteous and is the subject of blessing and reward.
(5) The other group is portrayed as wicked and is the subject of God’s wrath and punished.
(6) They are before the exact same throne at the exact same time.
(7) The good receive eternal life.
(8) The bad obtain eternal punishment.
(9) There is absolutely no mention of, or allowance made for, a third group.
Except that you forgot the 1000 yrs that occurs after the sheep and goat judgment. And what do you mean by the good receive life and the bad don't ? That sounds not anything like being saved by grace through faith in Christ as we are saved today....unless one clarifies that the "good" were saved because the good they did was done by FAITH.

wpm
Dec 20th 2008, 04:58 AM
Except that you forgot the 1000 yrs that occurs after the sheep and goat judgment. And what do you mean by the good receive life and the bad don't ? That sounds not anything like being saved by grace through faith in Christ as we are saved today....unless one clarifies that the "good" were saved because the good they did was done by FAITH.

When I say "good" I mean saved.

So where are your millennial inhabitants?

Raybob
Dec 20th 2008, 05:41 AM
Except that you forgot the 1000 yrs that occurs after the sheep and goat judgment.

I didn't see that in Matt. 25:31-46, did you?
And what do you mean by the good receive life and the bad don't ?

Mat 25:34-46 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world ...Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels ... And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

That sounds not anything like being saved by grace through faith in Christ as we are saved today....unless one clarifies that the "good" were saved because the good they did was done by FAITH.

Jas 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Raybob

the rookie
Dec 20th 2008, 05:01 PM
Aftrer following this whole thread, I feel there are a few important absolutes that are worth noting and summing up with.

(1) This is referring to the Second Coming of the Lord Jesus Christ.
(2) The Lord only encounters two types of people when He returns.
(3) These are both judged at His appearing.
(4) One group is portrayed as righteous and is the subject of blessing and reward.
(5) The other group is portrayed as wicked and is the subject of God’s wrath and punished.
(6) They are before the exact same throne at the exact same time.
(7) The good receive eternal life.
(8) The bad obtain eternal punishment.
(9) There is absolutely no mention of, or allowance made for, a third group.

If this was the only passage on the subject, one would say "case closed". Of course, Daniel 7:9, 27; Matthew 19:28 & Luke 22:30; 1 Cor. 6:2-3; and Rev. 20:4 all seem to provide further insight on the subject and introduce the concept of multiple thrones as well as a third group. The third group occupying the multiple thrones, of course.

wpm
Dec 20th 2008, 05:26 PM
If this was the only passage on the subject, one would say "case closed". Of course, Daniel 7:9, 27; Matthew 19:28 & Luke 22:30; 1 Cor. 6:2-3; and Rev. 20:4 all seem to provide further insight on the subject and introduce the concept of multiple thrones as well as a third group. The third group occupying the multiple thrones, of course.

Maybe you would furnish us with the evidence and show us what criteria one needs to inherit the new earth outside of salvation and glorification?

the rookie
Dec 20th 2008, 11:48 PM
Maybe you would furnish us with the evidence and show us what criteria one needs to inherit the new earth outside of salvation and glorification?

You seem to be changing the wording of the verse - perhaps you could furnish us with evidence that "kingdom" in that passage can be switched to "new earth".

I mean, I can inherit the kingdom now (if I were amillennial and believed that I was in the kingdom age) and not be glorified, correct? I can't enjoy that inheritance, perhaps, until it comes in fullness but I am surely a full member / citizen of the kingdom at this very moment without glorification?

wpm
Dec 21st 2008, 12:26 AM
You seem to be changing the wording of the verse - perhaps you could furnish us with evidence that "kingdom" in that passage can be switched to "new earth".

I mean, I can inherit the kingdom now (if I were amillennial and believed that I was in the kingdom age) and not be glorified, correct? I can't enjoy that inheritance, perhaps, until it comes in fullness but I am surely a full member / citizen of the kingdom at this very moment without glorification?





Whilst Amils view the future age and kingdom as synonymous, they only have glorified believers that inherit it. Inheriting the kingdom is always viewed in Scripture as a future hope that relates to the kingdom coming in all it final and perfect glory, not a present reality. Premils have glorified perfected saints and Christ-rejecting mortals inheriting the same kingdom.

Finally, whilst the penitent can spiritual "see the kingdom of God" (John 3:3) and spiritually "enter into the kingdom of God" (John 3:5) in this life, his glorious inheritance still awaits him i the future. The new glorified earth is the saints destiny.

Sirus
Dec 21st 2008, 12:41 AM
That's your proof?

Not all, probably not even most, at least not the premils I know, believe the new earth appears with the millenial kingdom. It's after the millenial kingdom.

wpm
Dec 21st 2008, 12:52 AM
That's your proof?

Not all, probably not even most, at least not the premils I know, believe the new earth appears with the millenial kingdom. It's after the millenial kingdom.

Why do 95% of them apply Isaiah 65:17-21 to their millennial kingdom?

Sirus
Dec 21st 2008, 01:12 AM
I don't know that figure to be true. I hear v20- applied to the millennial kingdom all the time. Problem is, there is a temple and a sea in the millenial kingdom and not in the new earth. They cannot be one and the same at the same 'time'.

wpm
Dec 21st 2008, 01:59 AM
I don't know that figure to be true. I hear v20- applied to the millennial kingdom all the time. Problem is, there is a temple and a sea in the millenial kingdom and not in the new earth. They cannot be one and the same at the same 'time'.

Then we have agreement on that point. :pp

Sirus
Dec 21st 2008, 02:14 AM
On that one point, yes! :pp
But unfortunately we disagree they are both still future. :)

quiet dove
Dec 21st 2008, 02:23 AM
On that one point, yes! :pp
But unfortunately we disagree they are both still future. :)

http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k204/qdove/photos/doh.gif .

My heart's Desire
Dec 21st 2008, 05:46 AM
Premils have glorified perfected saints and Christ-rejecting mortals inheriting the same kingdom.

.

I'm premil and believe it is the sheep who enter Christ's 1000 yr reign on earth but yet they are mortal still (not yet glorified nor perfected) and have come out of the great trib.
Christ kingdom reign on earth is the Kingdom that Israel has been expecting all this time. And I think that the end of Revelation speaks of the 1000 yrs and hardly any at all about the new heavens or earth.

RevLogos
Dec 21st 2008, 04:00 PM
I'm premil and believe it is the sheep who enter Christ's 1000 yr reign on earth but yet they are mortal still (not yet glorified nor perfected) and have come out of the great trib.
Christ kingdom reign on earth is the Kingdom that Israel has been expecting all this time. And I think that the end of Revelation speaks of the 1000 yrs and hardly any at all about the new heavens or earth.

Premils do not agree on who inherits the earthly kingdom. There's a whole thread on this and three views are given without agreement. The saints, the heathen, and a mix of both.

I think it is the meek.

Mat 5:5 Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.

In the Beatitudes, no one else gets the earth.

wpm
Dec 21st 2008, 07:34 PM
In no way am I suggesting that there is no kingdom in heaven, or that the kingdom in heaven isn't eternal, but we're not discussing the kingdom IN heaven - we're talking about the kingdom OF heaven COMING to earth, and that this will only be fully realized in the FUTURE. This kingdom will not be created, but established on the earth when Jesus returns to this earth at His second coming. The oath given to David (Acts 2:30) was that his seed would sit on his (David's) throne forever - his throne on earth in Jerusalem (2 Sam. 7:5-16). This coming king would not see corruption (Ps. 16:10), and only Jesus fulfills this prophecy, and is therefore the Seed who was promised to David who will one day sit as King in Jerusalem on earth. The kingdom is a future reality.

- Astro

Are we not seated spiritual in heavenly places in that kingdom at this moment in time?

RevLogos
Dec 21st 2008, 07:58 PM
The oath given to David (Acts 2:30) was that his seed would sit on his (David's) throne forever - his throne on earth in Jerusalem (2 Sam. 7:5-16).

You lost me here. Premils say Jesus will sit on David's throne in Jerusalem only for 1000 years, not forever. Doesn't that break the oath?

John146
Dec 22nd 2008, 08:51 PM
I am completely baffled as to how anyone can say that Matthew 13, is the same event as Matthew 25? Matthew 13 speaks of the angels separating the wheat from the tares. I don't see any questions being asked. Matthew is when Christ gathers all nations to Himself, and He (not the angels) separates sheep and goats.I'm completely baffled as to how anyone can say that Matthew 13 is NOT the same event as Matthew 25:31-46. I can see a clear relation between these verses:

Matt 13:41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;

Matt 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:


Matt 13:42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Matt 25:41Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:


Matt 13:43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

Matt 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

John146
Dec 22nd 2008, 09:15 PM
Except that you forgot the 1000 yrs that occurs after the sheep and goat judgment.And where is that mentioned? If all the sheep inherit the kingdom prepared from the foundation of the world for eternity (Matt 25:34,46) and all the goats are cast into everlasting fire for everlasting punishment (Matt 25:41,46) then what mortals are left to populate the supposed future thousand year earthly kingdom? And why isn't that supposed future earthly 1000 year kingdom mentioned at all in Matthew 25:31-46 if there was to be such a kingdom?

Partaker of Christ
Dec 23rd 2008, 01:20 AM
I'm completely baffled as to how anyone can say that Matthew 13 is NOT the same event as Matthew 25:31-46. I can see a clear relation between these verses:

Matt 13:41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;

Matt 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

Matt 13: The angels separate the tares from the wheat.

Matt 25: The Son of man will gather all nations to Himself, and then separate the sheep and the goats.


Matt 13:42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Matt 25:41Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

Matt 13: furnace of fire

Matt 25: everlasting fire


Matt 13:43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

Matt 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

Matt 13: The tares are gathered first, and cast into the furnace of fire

Matt 25: the sheep are separated first

My heart's Desire
Dec 23rd 2008, 02:05 AM
And where is that mentioned? If all the sheep inherit the kingdom prepared from the foundation of the world for eternity (Matt 25:34,46) and all the goats are cast into everlasting fire for everlasting punishment (Matt 25:41,46) then what mortals are left to populate the supposed future thousand year earthly kingdom? And why isn't that supposed future earthly 1000 year kingdom mentioned at all in Matthew 25:31-46 if there was to be such a kingdom?
Probably the same reason the translation of the dead and living saints to meet the Lord in the air is not in this passage either.

wpm
Dec 23rd 2008, 02:09 AM
Probably the same reason the translation of the dead and living saints to meet the Lord in the air is not in this passage either.

This is actually homing in on the subject of the judgment when Jesus comes. There are many passages that show the general resurrection. So who is not included in the sheep and goat company? Is there a 3rd group?

My heart's Desire
Dec 23rd 2008, 03:18 AM
So who is not included in the sheep and goat company? Is there a 3rd group?Obviously, it would be the Church that is NOT included considering they are not subject to judgment any longer and have disappeared from the scene at least 7 yrs before.

wpm
Dec 23rd 2008, 04:47 AM
Obviously, it would be the Church that is NOT included considering they are not subject to judgment any longer and have disappeared from the scene at least 7 yrs before.

Where do you get that?

jeffweeder
Dec 23rd 2008, 07:53 AM
Christ kingdom reign on earth is the Kingdom that Israel has been expecting all this time.

That is true, but it is refuted time after time that this is what Jesus was going to do.
They tried to make him king ,bu he slipped away, his time was not yet, and his kingdom was not of this world,--- shouldnt be understood as some visibly entity that would establish itself on the earth in the flesh like other kingdoms do.

The disciples asked him just before he ascended if this was the time of him establishing his kingdom .

Just wasnt an earthly kingdom, never could be.
It only becomes visible when one is born of the Spirit. He cannot see or enter the kingdom of God until that time.

Eyes were opened and People began to pour into kingdom at this time, but they couldnt see it, but they were cut to the heart and 3000 people entered the first day.
When Christ comes again we shall fully enter into the kingdom, we shall see him coming in the kingdom, we shall see his face, we will put on the full Spiritual body and we will fully inherit the kingdom of God.............we will realise that such a manifestation of his kingdom could not have happened in the flesh.
No mind has seen etc, the things that God has in store for those that Love him and are waiting for him.
I promise you along with the scriptures that all things become new as none of the old is left, and we shall be where Jesus is now when he comes to get us....

Flesh and blood doesnt stand a chance of glimpsing anything remotely close ,of what Jesus has gone to prepare for us and has promised us when he comes again.

We going straight to meet the Father and its time to change dress right now............and look your best for him by putting on the robe that he freely gives you in Christ Jesus.

Partaker of Christ
Dec 23rd 2008, 03:31 PM
Mat 13:24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:
Mat 13:25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.
Mat 13:26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.
Mat 13:27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?
Mat 13:28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?
Mat 13:29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.
Mat 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

If this passage is to do with the one last judgment (GWT), then why would the angels ask, if they should go and gather the tares before their time?

wpm
Dec 23rd 2008, 04:09 PM
Mat 13:24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:
Mat 13:25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.
Mat 13:26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.
Mat 13:27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?
Mat 13:28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?
Mat 13:29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.
Mat 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

If this passage is to do with the one last judgment (GWT), then why would the angels ask, if they should go and gather the tares before their time?

:hmm: I don't get your question or your argument. Can you enlarge?

John146
Dec 23rd 2008, 04:36 PM
Matt 13: The angels separate the tares from the wheat.

Matt 25: The Son of man will gather all nations to Himself, and then separate the sheep and the goats.The way in which He gathers them to Himself is by having His angels gather them to Him.


Matt 13: furnace of fire

Matt 25: everlasting fireCome on. :rolleyes: Do you believe the furnace of fire is not everlasting? What reason is there to think that the furnace of fire mentioned in Matthew 13 is any different than the everlasting fire mentioned in Matthew 25? None that I can see.


Matt 13: The tares are gathered first, and cast into the furnace of fire

Matt 25: the sheep are separated firstMatthew 25 does not say that the sheep are separated first. It only says that the sheep will be set on His right hand and the goats on the left. It doesn't say anything about which order.

John146
Dec 23rd 2008, 04:43 PM
Probably the same reason the translation of the dead and living saints to meet the Lord in the air is not in this passage either.But you didn't answer my other question. If the sheep all inherit eternal life in the kingdom prepared for them from the foundation of the world while the goats are cast into the everlasting fire, what mortals does that leave to populate an earthly millennial kingdom?

Nihil Obstat
Dec 23rd 2008, 09:21 PM
You lost me here. Premils say Jesus will sit on David's throne in Jerusalem only for 1000 years, not forever. Doesn't that break the oath?

Think of it like this: In Christ you are a new creation - old things have passed away, and all things have been made new (2 Cor. 5:17). Yet you still sin, and one day (if the Lord tarries) you will die. This is why the Holy Spirit through Paul (in Rom. 6:1-11; Eph. 4:22-24; Col. 3:9-10) commands that even now we are to crucify our guilty old man than we might daily be risen anew with Christ. However, at the resurrection we will be made like the angels and never die, for we will never sin again (which brings death).

The exact same language is used in Scripture to speak of the restoration of the fallen heavens and earth (cp. Rom. 8:19-25). Just as we were baptised by water (Col. 2:12) and are now by fire (Matt. 3:11; Acts 2:3), so too the world was baptized by water in the days of Noah (2 Pet. 3:6; cp. 1 Pet. 3:21) and is baptized by fire in the Day of the Lord (2 Pet. 3:7, 10-13; cp. 1 Pet. 4:12-13). As I've said before, God makes all things new, not all new things.

- Astro

RevLogos
Dec 23rd 2008, 11:54 PM
Ah, you missed my point. You say this:


The oath given to David (Acts 2:30) was that his seed would sit on his (David's) throne forever - his throne on earth in Jerusalem (2 Sam. 7:5-16). This coming king would not see corruption (Ps. 16:10), and only Jesus fulfills this prophecy, and is therefore the Seed who was promised to David who will one day sit as King in Jerusalem on earth. The kingdom is a future reality. So you say the promise of a throne forever is proof-text of the Premil POV. Actually, it isn’t. Acts 2:30 says nothing about a temporary reign on earth in Jerusalem. The promises in 2 Samuel say “forever”. The rest are your words, not scripture.

The only way a promise can be made forever is through a spiritual kingdom.

You say above the coming king will not see corruption. All on earth sees corruption. Only the spiritual is incorruptible. There is plenty of corruption in the Millennium. Therefore any promise of an incorruptible throne goes against the Premil POV.

All of these promises for an eternal, incorruptible kingdom, can only be fulfilled by a spiritual rule in heaven. These are consistent with Amil and Postmil points of view.

To support Premil, you’d have to find a promise of a temporary earthly corruptible kingdom, not an incorruptible forever kingdom.

Partaker of Christ
Dec 24th 2008, 12:58 AM
:hmm: I don't get your question or your argument. Can you enlarge?

Mat 13:24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:
Mat 13:25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.
Mat 13:26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.
Mat 13:27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?
Mat 13:28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?
Mat 13:29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.
Mat 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

If this passage is to do with the one last judgment (GWT), then why would the angels ask, if they should go and gather the tares before their time?

Sorry but it just had to be done! :lol:

My point is this: If this separation is the GWT, then surely the question (shall we gather the tares before harvest time) would never have been asked.

Partaker of Christ
Dec 24th 2008, 01:18 AM
The way in which He gathers them to Himself is by having His angels gather them to Him.

That is not what the word of God says.


Come on. :rolleyes: Do you believe the furnace of fire is not everlasting? What reason is there to think that the furnace of fire mentioned in Matthew 13 is any different than the everlasting fire mentioned in Matthew 25? None that I can see.

A furnace of fire, is not a lake of fire.
Many times a furnace is used to refine.


Matthew 25 does not say that the sheep are separated first. It only says that the sheep will be set on His right hand and the goats on the left. It doesn't say anything about which order.

Nevertheless, the tares are separated before the wheat.

Nihil Obstat
Dec 24th 2008, 02:21 AM
Ah, you missed my point.

You say the promise of a throne forever is proof-text of the Premil POV. Actually, it isn’t. Acts 2:30 says nothing about a temporary reign on earth in Jerusalem. The promises in 2 Samuel say “forever”. The rest are your words, not scripture.

The only way a promise can be made forever is through a spiritual kingdom.

You say above the coming king will not see corruption. All on earth sees corruption. Only the spiritual is incorruptible. There is plenty of corruption in the Millennium. Therefore any promise of an incorruptible throne goes against the Premil POV.

All of these promises for an eternal, incorruptible kingdom, can only be fulfilled by a spiritual rule in heaven. These are consistent with Amil and Postmil points of view.

To support Premil, you’d have to find a promise of a temporary earthly corruptible kingdom, not an incorruptible forever kingdom.

When did I say that Jesus' reign in Jerusalem would be temporary? The point I was making was that this earth and the new earth are the same earth - the new is the old earth restored, just as our resurrected bodies retain their physical qualities yet are described as "spiritual" (1 Cor. 15:44). Similarly, the New Jerusalem is the present day Jerusalem restored. This is why I don't understand where you get that I am promoting a temporary earthly reign...

Also, I think you're misunderstanding what the psalmist meant by "corruption". He is not talking about how the Messiah would live a sinless life so much as he is foretelling of both His sacrificial death and brief stay in the grave. Animals that were sacrificed had to be consumed within a certain amount of time before they began corrupting (decaying). This is what the psalmist was prophesying of - a glorious Christological truth!

Merry Christmas! - Astro

RevLogos
Dec 24th 2008, 02:25 AM
Mat 13:24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:

Sorry but it just had to be done! :lol:

My point is this: If this separation is the GWT, then surely the question (shall we gather the tares before harvest time) would never have been asked.

Doh! You Premils are always taking things so literally. :lol:

This is one of the parables that Jesus partially explains.

Mat 13:39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
Mat 13:40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.

So we're told this is the end of the world.

As for the question they ask, we can see this as a caution against over-zeal, or against making our own judgment. More likely though He is telling us that he waits to the end to assure all that can be saved, will be saved.

Or perhaps He's telling us there's no pre-trib rapture. ;)

wpm
Dec 24th 2008, 02:42 AM
A furnace of fire, is not a lake of fire.
Many times a furnace is used to refine.

This type of spiltting hairs is why I abandoned Premil 8yrs ago. ;)

My heart's Desire
Dec 24th 2008, 03:56 AM
But you didn't answer my other question. If the sheep all inherit eternal life in the kingdom prepared for them from the foundation of the world while the goats are cast into the everlasting fire, what mortals does that leave to populate an earthly millennial kingdom?
The sheep populate the earth. Just as we in the church are in the kingdom even though we're not dead yet, even as we have eternal life when we accept Jesus as Savior though we don't yet see it.

wpm
Dec 24th 2008, 04:27 AM
The sheep populate the earth. Just as we in the church are in the kingdom even though we're not dead yet, even as we have eternal life when we accept Jesus as Savior though we don't yet see it.

Why then does God describe “the families of the earth” who are “left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem” as “the heathen” in Zechariah 14:16-21?

My heart's Desire
Dec 24th 2008, 04:49 AM
Why then does God describe “the families of the earth” who are “left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem” as “the heathen” in Zechariah 14:16-21?
Can you tell me why in verse 12 it tells about what happens to those who went to war against Jerusalem, why there are ANY left from it that will go up from year to year to worship. The destruction of those who went against Jerusalem sounds pretty final to me. The Lord strikes ALL the people.
Their flesh will rot, their eyes will rot, their hands are also lifted up against the hand of each other.

Later sacrifices are also made in verse 21 and there will be NO Canaanite in the house of the Lord of hosts in that day.
Speaking of, sounds like there will be sacrifices made in the House of the Lord in the Milliennial kingdom after all.

Where are they called "heathen"?

RevLogos
Dec 24th 2008, 04:57 AM
Can you tell me why in verse 12 it tells about what happens to those who went to war against Jerusalem, why there are ANY left from it that will go up from year to year to worship. The destruction of those who went against Jerusalem sounds pretty final to me. The Lord strikes ALL the people.
Their flesh will rot, their eyes will rot, their hands are also lifted up against the hand of each other.

Later sacrifices are also made in verse 21 and there will be NO Canaanite in the house of the Lord of hosts in that day.
Speaking of, sounds like there will be sacrifices made in the House of the Lord in the Milliennial kingdom after all.

Where are they called "heathen"?

[KJV] Zec 14:18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

Heathen is not used in all translations, but it is talking about what happens to people who will not attend the Feast of the Tabernacles. V.17 also mentions those who will not go to the feasts, and their punishment. Obviously unbelievers who are being punished.

RevLogos
Dec 24th 2008, 05:01 AM
Later sacrifices are also made in verse 21 and there will be NO Canaanite in the house of the Lord of hosts in that day.
Speaking of, sounds like there will be sacrifices made in the House of the Lord in the Milliennial kingdom after all.



You're right about the sacrifices. These are animal sacrifices for sin (See Lev 6:25-30, Eze 46:20-24). They are boiled in earthen or bronze pots which must be cleansed to be made holy.

Do you believe we will start animal sacrifices for sin in the Millennium?

My heart's Desire
Dec 24th 2008, 05:10 AM
[KJV] Zec 14:18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

Heathen is not used in all translations, but it is talking about what happens to people who will not attend the Feast of the Tabernacles. V.17 also mentions those who will not go to the feasts, and their punishment. Obviously unbelievers who are being punished.
My question remains. If the plague kills all the people who came against Jerusalem who is left who will not go up from year to year to worship upon whom there will be no rain?

wpm
Dec 24th 2008, 05:11 AM
Can you tell me why in verse 12 it tells about what happens to those who went to war against Jerusalem, why there are ANY left from it that will go up from year to year to worship. The destruction of those who went against Jerusalem sounds pretty final to me. The Lord strikes ALL the people.
Their flesh will rot, their eyes will rot, their hands are also lifted up against the hand of each other.

Later sacrifices are also made in verse 21 and there will be NO Canaanite in the house of the Lord of hosts in that day.
Speaking of, sounds like there will be sacrifices made in the House of the Lord in the Milliennial kingdom after all.

Where are they called "heathen"?

Scripture describes the old covenant sacrificial system as “that which is done away” (2 Corinthians 3:11). It tells us, the “vail is done away in Christ” (2 Corinthians 3:14). Hebrews 10:9 confirms, “He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.”

My heart's Desire
Dec 24th 2008, 05:16 AM
You're right about the sacrifices. These are animal sacrifices for sin (See Lev 6:25-30, Eze 46:20-24). They are boiled in earthen or bronze pots which must be cleansed to be made holy.

Do you believe we will start animal sacrifices for sin in the Millennium?
I believe there is a millennial Temple. I don't stand by it standfastly, but as Zech.14:21 assumes there are sacrifices and this is after the Lord's feet stands on the Mt. of Olives and it splits and the land is changed when He returns (Zech 14:2). As this event has not happened yet, it must still be future and so the sacrifices also still future.

RevLogos
Dec 24th 2008, 05:24 AM
I believe there is a millennial Temple.

During Jesus reign? It is Jesus in the temple. What happened to Jesus being the final atoning sacrifice for sin? I don't understand how this would be possible.

My heart's Desire
Dec 24th 2008, 05:26 AM
Scripture describes the old covenant sacrificial system as “that which is done away” (2 Corinthians 3:11). It tells us, the “vail is done away in Christ” (2 Corinthians 3:14). Hebrews 10:9 confirms, “He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.”
Yes, I expected that argument of which I agree yet, Zech does allude to sacrifice of some kind after Christ returns.

My heart's Desire
Dec 24th 2008, 05:27 AM
During Jesus reign? It is Jesus in the temple. What happened to Jesus being the final atoning sacrifice for sin? I don't understand how this would be possible.
I don't either,but Scripture describes it.

quiet dove
Dec 24th 2008, 06:26 AM
I don't either,but Scripture describes it.

Doesn't Zech talk about the Feast of Tabernacles, which was after the Day of Atonement? And not necessarily a feast atoning for sin, though there are sacrifices?

My heart's Desire
Dec 24th 2008, 06:40 AM
Doesn't Zech talk about the Feast of Tabernacles, which was after the Day of Atonement? And not a feast atoning for sin?
All I know is what scripture says:
Every cooking pot in Jerusalem and in Judah will be holy to the Lord of hosts; and all who sacrifice will come and take of them and boil in them.
One finds interesting that if so then the Day of Atonement (Jesus is our atonement) then came the feast of Tabernacles. Also, these pots are in Jerusalem and in Judah, not in the nations of the world. Who are most acquainted with pots and sacrifices but the Jewish people, and not Gentiles who have become Christians. Who were waiting for the promised kingdom, but Israel?
Just tidbits to chew on, I guess. 2 cents worth. I'm going to bed, gotta work tomorrow. ;)

wpm
Dec 24th 2008, 03:26 PM
Yes, I expected that argument of which I agree yet, Zech does allude to sacrifice of some kind after Christ returns.

Obviously you believe the old covenant is restored. Can you exgete the following and tell me what they mean if the old covenant is not done away?

Scripture describes the old covenant sacrificial system as “that which is done away” (2 Corinthians 3:11). It tells us, the “vail is done away in Christ” (2 Corinthians 3:14). Hebrews 10:9 confirms, “He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.”

wpm
Dec 24th 2008, 03:28 PM
Doesn't Zech talk about the Feast of Tabernacles, which was after the Day of Atonement? And not necessarily a feast atoning for sin, though there are sacrifices?

Leviticus 23:34-38 shows the linkage between the feast of tabernacles and the ceremonial sacrifices:“Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, The fifteenth day of this seventh month shall be the feast of tabernacles for seven days unto the LORD.On the first day shall be an holy convocation: ye shall do no servile work therein. Seven days ye shall offer an offering made by fire unto the LORD: on the eighth day shall be an holy convocation unto you; and ye shall offer an offering made by fire unto the LORD: it is a solemn assembly; and ye shall do no servile work therein. These are the feasts of the LORD, which ye shall proclaim to be holy convocations,to offer an offering made by fire unto the LORD, a burnt offering, and a meat offering, a sacrifice, and drink offerings, every thing upon his day.”

The ‘feast of tabernacles’ or ‘feast of booths’ or ‘feast of ingatherings’, also known as ‘Sukkoth’ or ‘the festival of the harvest’ was one of the annual pilgrimage festivals in Jerusalem. Jews travelled from all over the nation of Israel to keep the feast. It was an autumn festival celebrating the abundance of God’s blessings in connection with the autumn harvest. It was also a memorial of the Exodus, when the Israelites wandered in the wilderness, living in tabernacles, or tents, en route to the Promised Land.

It is believed that no less than 189 animals were sacrificed to God – more, significantly, than at any other festival in Israel's calendar. Numbers 29:12-39 records: “And on the fifteenth day of the seventh month ye shall have an holy convocation; ye shall do no servile work, and ye shall keep a feast unto the LORD seven days:And ye shall offer a burnt offering, a sacrifice made by fire, of a sweet savour unto the LORD; thirteen young bullocks, two rams, and fourteen lambs of the first year; they shall be without blemish: And their meat offering shall be of flour mingled with oil, three tenth deals unto every bullock of the thirteen bullocks, two tenth deals to each ram of the two rams, And a several tenth deal to each lamb of the fourteen lambs: And one kid of the goats for a sin offering; beside the continual burnt offering, his meat offering, and his drink offering. And on the second day ye shall offer twelve young bullocks, two rams, fourteen lambs of the first year without spot: And their meat offering and their drink offerings for the bullocks, for the rams, and for the lambs, shall be according to their number, after the manner: And one kid of the goats for a sin offering; beside the continual burnt offering, and the meat offering thereof, and their drink offerings. And on the third day eleven bullocks, two rams, fourteen lambs of the first year without blemish; And their meat offering and their drink offerings for the bullocks, for the rams, and for the lambs, shall be according to their number, after the manner: And one goat for a sin offering; beside the continual burnt offering, and his meat offering, and his drink offering. And on the fourth day ten bullocks, two rams, and fourteen lambs of the first year without blemish: Their meat offering and their drink offerings for the bullocks, for the rams, and for the lambs, shall be according to their number, after the manner: And one kid of the goats for a sin offering; beside the continual burnt offering, his meat offering, and his drink offering. And on the fifth day nine bullocks, two rams, and fourteen lambs of the first year without spot: And their meat offering and their drink offerings for the bullocks, for the rams, and for the lambs, shall be according to their number, after the manner: And one goat for a sin offering; beside the continual burnt offering, and his meat offering, and his drink offering. And on the sixth day eight bullocks, two rams, and fourteen lambs of the first year without blemish: And their meat offering and their drink offerings for the bullocks, for the rams, and for the lambs, shall be according to their number, after the manner: And one goat for a sin offering; beside the continual burnt offering, his meat offering, and his drink offering. And on the seventh day seven bullocks, two rams, and fourteen lambs of the first year without blemish: And their meat offering and their drink offerings for the bullocks, for the rams, and for the lambs, shall be according to their number, after the manner: And one goat for a sin offering; beside the continual burnt offering, his meat offering, and his drink offering. On the eighth day ye shall have a solemn assembly: ye shall do no servile work therein: But ye shall offer a burnt offering, a sacrifice made by fire, of a sweet savour unto the LORD: one bullock, one ram, seven lambs of the first year without blemish: Their meat offering and their drink offerings for the bullock, for the ram, and for the lambs, shall be according to their number, after the manner: And one goat for a sin offering; beside the continual burnt offering, and his meat offering, and his drink offering.These things ye shall do unto the LORD in your set feasts, beside your vows, and your freewill offerings, for your burnt offerings, and for your meat offerings, and for your drink offerings, and for your peace offerings.”

Keil & Delitzsch scholarly Commentary confirms: “the feast of Tabernacles, the special regulations for the celebration of which are contained in Leviticus 23:34-36 and 39-43, was distinguished above all the other feasts of the year by the great number of burnt-offerings, which raised it into the greatest festival of joy. On the seven feast-days, the first of which was to be celebrated with sabbatical rest and a holy meeting, there were to be offered, in addition to the daily burnt-offering, every day a he-goat for a sin-offering, and seventy oxen in all for a burnt-offering during the seven days, as well as every day two rams and fourteen yearling lambs, with the requisite meat-offerings and drink-offerings. Whilst, therefore, the number of rams and lambs was double the number offered at the Passover and feast of Pentecost, the number of oxen was fivefold; for, instead of fourteen, there were seventy offered during the seven days.”

It concludes: “This multiplication of the oxen was distributed in such a way, that instead of there being ten offered every day, there were thirteen on the first day, twelve on the second, and so on, deducting one every day, so that on the seventh day there were exactly seven offered; the arrangement being probably made for the purpose of securing the holy number seven for this last day, and indicating at the same time, through the gradual diminution in the number of sacrificial oxen, the gradual decrease in the festal character of the seven festal days. The reason for this multiplication in the number of burnt-offerings is to be sought for in the nature of the feast itself. Their living in booths had already visibly represented to the people the defence and blessing of their God; and the foliage of these booths pointed out the glorious advantages of the inheritance received from the Lord.”

RevLogos
Dec 24th 2008, 03:46 PM
Doesn't Zech talk about the Feast of Tabernacles, which was after the Day of Atonement? And not necessarily a feast atoning for sin, though there are sacrifices?

The Feast of the Tabernacles is a time of remembrance of when the Jews were wandering the desert. It is also known as the Feast of the Booths (or Sukkot) because of how the Jews were living in the wilderness. As I understand it, for 7 days in autumn Jews would come to the temple and live temporarily in these booths, just as they did in the wilderness. Thus this feast celebrates part of history unique to the Jews.

Being unique to the Jews and their history in the wilderness, why would God command Gentiles to celebrate this feast? Even believers in Christ? Does it make sense that Gentiles would celebrate this Feast? It doesn't to me. I imagine the Jews of the day would also have been scratching their head at this one. Ever wonder about it?

So why would Zechariah say this? Paul gives us a hint

Col 2:16 Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day.
Col 2:17 These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.

Paul is saying these Feasts are a type, or shadow, of things that were to come. The reality is in Christ. The Jews of the day would never have understood this. So, taken literally, these verses make no sense to either Jews or Christians. Therefore there must be something behind the events that has meaning. Is it possible Zechariah used the Feasts to tell us something about the future? Or must Gentiles celebrate a Jewish feast made obsolete by Jesus.

Thus the Premils seem left with the very ugly notion of restarting sacrifices. Both the Premils and the Jews are left with the unexplainable notion of Gentiles engaging in uniquely Jewish Feasts. And we have to explain why all nonbelievers were destroyed around V.12 only to come back later.

The reality is in Christ.

John146
Dec 24th 2008, 04:35 PM
That is not what the word of God says.Yes, it does.

Matt 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.


A furnace of fire, is not a lake of fire.
Many times a furnace is used to refine.You are saying that the tares are going to be cast into a furnace of fire to be refined? Where is your scriptural support for this idea? I don't see any reason to think that the furnace of fire is any different from the everlasting fire which is no different than the lake of fire. Just different ways of referring to the same thing.


Nevertheless, the tares are separated before the wheat.So what? That proves nothing either way.

John146
Dec 24th 2008, 04:37 PM
I believe there is a millennial Temple. I don't stand by it standfastly, but as Zech.14:21 assumes there are sacrifices and this is after the Lord's feet stands on the Mt. of Olives and it splits and the land is changed when He returns (Zech 14:2). As this event has not happened yet, it must still be future and so the sacrifices also still future.What would be the purpose of these supposed sacrifices?

John146
Dec 24th 2008, 04:49 PM
The sheep populate the earth. Just as we in the church are in the kingdom even though we're not dead yet, even as we have eternal life when we accept Jesus as Savior though we don't yet see it.But since the sheep are saved they would already have eternal life before then. So, Matthew 25:31-46 is not speaking about the sheep being saved. Though we have eternal life in a spiritual sense even now (1 John 5:13) it is not until Jesus returns that we will be changed (1 Cor 15:51-54) and receive eternal bodily life. That is what Matthew 25:46 is alluding to. Since the goats are cast into the everlasting fire at that same time this does not leave any mortals left to populate a supposed earthly millennial kingdom.

RevLogos
Dec 24th 2008, 05:29 PM
What would be the purpose of these supposed sacrifices?

What Zechariah is saying is that in the millennium every pot is holy and all who come to make a sin sacrifice can use these pots. Zechariah doesn’t go into a great amount of detail here because anyone reading it, that being a Jew of the time, would know exactly what he is talking about.
Lev 6:24 The LORD said to Moses,
Lev 6:25 "Say to Aaron and his sons: 'These are the regulations for the sin offering: The sin offering is to be slaughtered before the LORD in the place the burnt offering is slaughtered; it is most holy.
Lev 6:26 The priest who offers it shall eat it; it is to be eaten in a holy place, in the courtyard of the Tent of Meeting.
Lev 6:27 Whatever touches any of the flesh will become holy, and if any of the blood is spattered on a garment, you must wash it in a holy place.
Lev 6:28 The clay pot the meat is cooked in must be broken; but if it is cooked in a bronze pot, the pot is to be scoured and rinsed with water.
Lev 6:29 Any male in a priest's family may eat it; it is most holy.
Lev 6:30 But any sin offering whose blood is brought into the Tent of Meeting to make atonement in the Holy Place must not be eaten; it must be burned.
And also in Ezekiel. We usually don't spend a lot of time in the latter Ezekiel chapters because they are mostly rules for priests and regular people concerning worship and sacrifice.
Eze 46:20 Then said he unto me, This is the place where the priests shall boil the trespass offering and the sin offering, where they shall bake the meat offering; that they bear them not out into the utter court, to sanctify the people.
Eze 46:21 Then he brought me forth into the utter court, and caused me to pass by the four corners of the court; and, behold, in every corner of the court there was a court.
Eze 46:22 In the four corners of the court there were courts joined of forty cubits long and thirty broad: these four corners were of one measure.
Eze 46:23 And there was a row of building round about in them, round about them four, and it was made with boiling places under the rows round about.
Eze 46:24 Then said he unto me, These are the places of them that boil, where the ministers of the house shall boil the sacrifice of the people.
So there is no doubt what this means. These are animal sacrifices for sin.

John146
Dec 24th 2008, 05:53 PM
What Zechariah is saying is that in the millennium every pot is holy and all who come to make a sin sacrifice can use these pots. Zechariah doesn’t go into a great amount of detail here because anyone reading it, that being a Jew of the time, would know exactly what he is talking about.
Lev 6:24 The LORD said to Moses,
Lev 6:25 "Say to Aaron and his sons: 'These are the regulations for the sin offering: The sin offering is to be slaughtered before the LORD in the place the burnt offering is slaughtered; it is most holy.
Lev 6:26 The priest who offers it shall eat it; it is to be eaten in a holy place, in the courtyard of the Tent of Meeting.
Lev 6:27 Whatever touches any of the flesh will become holy, and if any of the blood is spattered on a garment, you must wash it in a holy place.
Lev 6:28 The clay pot the meat is cooked in must be broken; but if it is cooked in a bronze pot, the pot is to be scoured and rinsed with water.
Lev 6:29 Any male in a priest's family may eat it; it is most holy.
Lev 6:30 But any sin offering whose blood is brought into the Tent of Meeting to make atonement in the Holy Place must not be eaten; it must be burned.
And also in Ezekiel. We usually don't spend a lot of time in the latter Ezekiel chapters because they are mostly rules for priests and regular people concerning worship and sacrifice.
Eze 46:20 Then said he unto me, This is the place where the priests shall boil the trespass offering and the sin offering, where they shall bake the meat offering; that they bear them not out into the utter court, to sanctify the people.
Eze 46:21 Then he brought me forth into the utter court, and caused me to pass by the four corners of the court; and, behold, in every corner of the court there was a court.
Eze 46:22 In the four corners of the court there were courts joined of forty cubits long and thirty broad: these four corners were of one measure.
Eze 46:23 And there was a row of building round about in them, round about them four, and it was made with boiling places under the rows round about.
Eze 46:24 Then said he unto me, These are the places of them that boil, where the ministers of the house shall boil the sacrifice of the people.
So there is no doubt what this means. These are animal sacrifices for sin.What is your point exactly? Are you just making the point that if these sacrifices were to take place in the future then they would be sacrifices for sin, which we both agree could not possibly happen in the future since Christ already made the once for all sacrifice for sin?

wpm
Dec 24th 2008, 06:24 PM
A furnace of fire, is not a lake of fire.
Many times a furnace is used to refine.


Do you believe in purgutory?

RevLogos
Dec 24th 2008, 06:55 PM
What is your point exactly? Are you just making the point that if these sacrifices were to take place in the future then they would be sacrifices for sin, which we both agree could not possibly happen in the future since Christ already made the once for all sacrifice for sin?

Yes, I want to make sure everyone is very clear on exactly what these sacrifices are. The Jews of the day, roughly 2500 years ago, would know precisely what Zechariah is talking about. This is in a language they would understand.

But as Christians we know the idea of sacrifices in a temple to Jesus is antichristian. It corrupts the very core of who Jesus was and what was accomplished by on the cross. It speaks to a Jesus who never was, to a resurrection that failed. It shreds the Gospels.

So, regarding Zechariah 14, this leaves these options:


Zechariah 14 speaks figuratively and symbolically of things to come, or
Christians will be sacrificing animals for sin in a new temple.

Choose wisely.

Partaker of Christ
Dec 24th 2008, 07:28 PM
Doh! You Premils are always taking things so literally. :lol:

This is one of the parables that Jesus partially explains.

Mat 13:39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
Mat 13:40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.

So we're told this is the end of the world.

As for the question they ask, we can see this as a caution against over-zeal, or against making our own judgment. More likely though He is telling us that he waits to the end to assure all that can be saved, will be saved.

Or perhaps He's telling us there's no pre-trib rapture. ;)

Hi Revolvr!

I don't yet claim to be a premill or amill. I guess I must be just a run of the mill! Until I came on this board, I didn't even know there was these two views.

I have been looking at the scripture, and listening to the arguments from both sides.

Partaker of Christ
Dec 24th 2008, 07:30 PM
This type of spiltting hairs is why I abandoned Premil 8yrs ago. ;)

Trying to grow hairs is why I don't agree with amil :D

Partaker of Christ
Dec 24th 2008, 07:35 PM
Do you believe in purgutory?

No.
Next question!

John146
Dec 24th 2008, 07:40 PM
Yes, I want to make sure everyone is very clear on exactly what these sacrifices are. The Jews of the day, roughly 2500 years ago, would know precisely what Zechariah is talking about. This is in a language they would understand.

But as Christians we know the idea of sacrifices in a temple to Jesus is antichristian. It corrupts the very core of who Jesus was and what was accomplished by on the cross. It speaks to a Jesus who never was, to a resurrection that failed. It shreds the Gospels.

So, regarding Zechariah 14, this leaves these options:


Zechariah 14 speaks figuratively and symbolically of things to come, or
Christians will be sacrificing animals for sin in a new temple.

Choose wisely.That's what I thought you were saying, but I wanted to make sure. I agree.

John146
Dec 24th 2008, 07:42 PM
No.
Next question!But you believe the furnace of fire that Jesus mentions in the parable of the wheat and tares is for the purpose of refining the tares. Can you expand on what you meant by that exactly?

Partaker of Christ
Dec 24th 2008, 08:45 PM
But you believe the furnace of fire that Jesus mentions in the parable of the wheat and tares is for the purpose of refining the tares. Can you expand on what you meant by that exactly?

That is not what I said.

I said a furnace is often referred to for refining. The point I tried to make, was the vast difference between a furnace of fire, and a lake of fire.

What I believe is, Matt 13: furnace of fire, is reference to the wrath of God poured out in the tribulation.

Rev 14:14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.
Rev 14:15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.
Rev 14:16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.
Rev 14:17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.
Rev 14:18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.
Rev 14:19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.
Rev 14:20 And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.

quiet dove
Dec 24th 2008, 09:16 PM
The Feast of the Tabernacles is a time of remembrance of when the Jews were wandering the desert. It is also known as the Feast of the Booths (or Sukkot) because of how the Jews were living in the wilderness. As I understand it, for 7 days in autumn Jews would come to the temple and live temporarily in these booths, just as they did in the wilderness. Thus this feast celebrates part of history unique to the Jews.

Being unique to the Jews and their history in the wilderness, why would God command Gentiles to celebrate this feast? Even believers in Christ? Does it make sense that Gentiles would celebrate this Feast? It doesn't to me. I imagine the Jews of the day would also have been scratching their head at this one. Ever wonder about it?

So why would Zechariah say this? Paul gives us a hint

Col 2:16 Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day.
Col 2:17 These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.

Paul is saying these Feasts are a type, or shadow, of things that were to come. The reality is in Christ. The Jews of the day would never have understood this. So, taken literally, these verses make no sense to either Jews or Christians. Therefore there must be something behind the events that has meaning. Is it possible Zechariah used the Feasts to tell us something about the future? Or must Gentiles celebrate a Jewish feast made obsolete by Jesus.

Thus the Premils seem left with the very ugly notion of restarting sacrifices. Both the Premils and the Jews are left with the unexplainable notion of Gentiles engaging in uniquely Jewish Feasts. And we have to explain why all nonbelievers were destroyed around V.12 only to come back later.

The reality is in Christ.

If all Gentiles who believe are grafted into the vine, thus making them apart of Israel, wouldn't they then celebrate with all of Israel since they are part of Israel?

And as Israel once celebrated their freedom from Egypt, might they along with Gentiles, celebrate their freedom from bondage through Christ Jesus?

As far as restarting sacrifices, sacrifices never paid for sin and we know that anyone ever saved was saved by faith, even Abraham and all from the OT, faith is what saved them, not sacrifices cleansing their sins from them. We know only Jesus could do that and those that believed/believe God for the Redeemer, and in the Redeemer are those washed.

Nihil Obstat
Dec 24th 2008, 09:40 PM
If all Gentiles who believe are grafted into the vine, thus making them apart of Israel, wouldn't they then celebrate with all of Israel since they are part of Israel?

And as Israel once celebrated their freedom from Egypt, might they along with Gentiles, celebrate their freedom from bondage through Christ Jesus?

The Feast of Tabernacles was always a feast that the Gentiles were invited to and even encouraged to attend.

wpm
Dec 24th 2008, 09:41 PM
That is not what I said.

I said a furnace is often referred to for refining. The point I tried to make, was the vast difference between a furnace of fire, and a lake of fire.

What I believe is, Matt 13: furnace of fire, is reference to the wrath of God poured out in the tribulation.

Rev 14:14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.
Rev 14:15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.
Rev 14:16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.
Rev 14:17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.
Rev 14:18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.
Rev 14:19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.
Rev 14:20 And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.

There is a clear linkage between the wheat and tares parable in Matthew 13 and the sheep and goats parable in Matthew 25. They both refer to the one and only future Coming of Christ. They both describe the general judgment - the righteous and the wicked are judged together. The righteous are rewarded with their eternal reward, the wicked receive their eternal reward. We therefore have the wicked judged before a supposed future millennium. Let us compare:

Jesus said in Matthew 13:41: “The Son of man shall send forth his angels.”

Jesus said in Matthew 25:31: “When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him.”

Jesus said in Matthew 13:42: “and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.”

Jesus said in Matthew 25:41: “Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels.”

Jesus said in Matthew 13:43: “Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father.”

Jesus said in Matthew 25:34: “Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.”

wpm
Dec 24th 2008, 09:47 PM
That is not what I said.

I said a furnace is often referred to for refining. The point I tried to make, was the vast difference between a furnace of fire, and a lake of fire.

What I believe is, Matt 13: furnace of fire, is reference to the wrath of God poured out in the tribulation.

Rev 14:14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.
Rev 14:15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.
Rev 14:16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.
Rev 14:17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.
Rev 14:18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.
Rev 14:19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.
Rev 14:20 And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.

The more we dig the more Premil is seen to spiritualise passages that are speaking about literal events. This is the accusation that is often thrown at Amils and which seems to be quickly losing its potency. :)

RevLogos
Dec 24th 2008, 10:16 PM
The Feast of Tabernacles was always a feast that the Gentiles were invited to and even encouraged to attend.

Jesus never asked His followers to celebrate Jewish traditional feasts. Why start in the millennium?

RevLogos
Dec 24th 2008, 10:29 PM
If all Gentiles who believe are grafted into the vine, thus making them apart of Israel, wouldn't they then celebrate with all of Israel since they are part of Israel?

And as Israel once celebrated their freedom from Egypt, might they along with Gentiles, celebrate their freedom from bondage through Christ Jesus?

As far as restarting sacrifices, sacrifices never paid for sin and we know that anyone ever saved was saved by faith, even Abraham and all from the OT, faith is what saved them, not sacrifices cleansing their sins from them. We know only Jesus could do that and those that believed/believe God for the Redeemer, and in the Redeemer are those washed.

I think you wisely reject sacrifices in the millennium. But we're now left in the uncomfortable position of a Biblical exegesis that accepts some passages but ignores others we don't like.

quiet dove
Dec 24th 2008, 10:50 PM
I think you wisely reject sacrifices in the millennium. But we're now left in the uncomfortable position of a Biblical exegesis that accepts some passages but ignores others we don't like.

I am not ignoring or rejecting them, I am saying that sacrifices of bulls and goats never cleansed away the sin from a mans heart. It is easier for me to be perplexed by that portion of scripture than it is to apply other portions of scripture in anyway except exactly like they are spoken without any applying them to teach some spiritual truth. The passages say all the nations will be required to come to Jerusalem to worship Christ, those that refuse, will have no rain....and so on. Just because I cannot reason why it also speaks of sacrifice is not reason to take those passages any other way than at face value in a literal sense of it will happen just as described, no spiritual application required toward the Church to make sense of them.

wpm
Dec 24th 2008, 11:10 PM
I am not ignoring or rejecting them, I am saying that sacrifices of bulls and goats never cleansed away the sin from a mans heart. It is easier for me to be perplexed by that portion of scripture than it is to apply other portions of scripture in anyway except exactly like they are spoken without any applying them to teach some spiritual truth. The passages say all the nations will be required to come to Jerusalem to worship Christ, those that refuse, will have no rain....and so on. Just because I cannot reason why it also speaks of sacrifice is not reason to take those passages any other way than at face value in a literal sense of it will happen just as described, no spiritual application required toward the Church to make sense of them.

The Old Testament animal sacrifices temporarily appeased God’s wrath, covered for the Israelites sin and allowed him to approach a thrice holy God in confidence that he was accepted. These sacrifices allowed the Old Testament saints to be at one with God; their sins being temporarily covered by these sacrifices. The Old Testament sacrifices thus covered sin but it never removed sin. Notwithstanding, they couldn’t eternally and fully satisfy all the holy demands of God for sin and for sinners. The Old Testament saints’ faith was primarily upon the coming Messiah and His final all-sufficient sacrifice for sin which was typically represented in the Old Testament animal sacrifices. Whilst the Old Covenant ordinances did not remove sin, it did cover it until Christ came.

Do you believe they are going to similarly cover sin and appease the wrath of God in your future millennium?

Do you accept that the slaughter of countless animal sacrifices was integral to the old covenant feast of tabernacles?

quiet dove
Dec 24th 2008, 11:31 PM
The Old Testament animal sacrifices were not simply symbolic religious ordinances (or signposts) that depicted Christ they involved definite propitiation and substitution. Whilst they were imperfect, they temporarily appeased God’s wrath, covered for the Israelites sin and allowed him to approach a thrice holy God in confidence that he was accepted.

But without the heart being regenerated, they were just what you said, to appease God. Through Christ, God is more than appeased, we are cleansed. The sacrificial system did not cleanse the heart of men, Christ does.



These sacrifices allowed the Old Testament saints to be at one with God; their sins being temporarily covered by these sacrifices. The Old Testament sacrifices thus covered sin but it never removed sin.

They did not remove sin. Christ removes and cleanses us from our sin and we are covered by His righteousness, no man was ever covered by the righteouness of a bull or goat.



Notwithstanding, they couldn’t eternally and fully satisfy all the holy demands of God for sin and for sinners.
They never satisfied the Holy demands of God, as you said, they appeased Him, but it was not the sacrifice, is was the obedience and the One whom the sacrifices depicted. The Lamb.



Do you believe they are going to similarly cover sin and appease the wrath of God in your future millennium?

I dont think any blood every "covered" sin except the Blood of Christ.



Do you accept that the slaughter of countless animal sacrifices was integral to the old covenant feast of tabernacles?

I am not arguing that the Bible doesn't say there will be sacrifices, the disagreement is that you assume I thing those sacrifices can cover sin, and I do not.

And I understand that sacrifices were made during the Feast of Tabernacles, but where does it say that they are for sin? Not arguing that is doesn't but I am reading that the Feast of Tabernacles is to celebrate. Since the Feast of Tabernacles followed the Day of Atonement, where is is taught that the sacrifices of the Feast of Tabernacles are for sin, could they not be sacrifices made in thanks giving? Not arguing this one, just asking

Deu 16:13 "You shall observe the Feast of Tabernacles seven days, when you have gathered from your threshing floor and from your winepress.
Deu 16:14 And you shall rejoice in your feast, you and your son and your daughter, your male servant and your female servant and the Levite, the stranger and the fatherless and the widow, who are within your gates.
Deu 16:15 Seven days you shall keep a sacred feast to the LORD your God in the place which the LORD chooses, because the LORD your God will bless you in all your produce and in all the work of your hands, so that you surely rejoice.

Partaker of Christ
Dec 25th 2008, 12:56 AM
There is a clear linkage between the wheat and tares parable in Matthew 13 and the sheep and goats parable in Matthew 25. They both refer to the one and only future Coming of Christ. They both describe the general judgment - the righteous and the wicked are judged together. The righteous are rewarded with their eternal reward, the wicked receive their eternal reward. We therefore have the wicked judged before a supposed future millennium. Let us compare:

Jesus said in Matthew 13:41: “The Son of man shall send forth his angels.”

Jesus said in Matthew 25:31: “When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him.”

Sending forth, and coming with are very different actions.


Jesus said in Matthew 13:42: “and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.”

Jesus said in Matthew 25:41: “Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels.”

They (the angels) shall gather, and they shall cast them.
Furnace of fire, is very different to lake of fire.


Jesus said in Matthew 13:43: “Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father.”

Jesus said in Matthew 25:34: “Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.”

Sorry, but you seem to be trying to make the scriptures fit your theory.