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vinsight4u8
Dec 6th 2008, 05:13 PM
See Jeremiah 25:11.
This prophecy will be completed by Iraq.

modanufu
Dec 6th 2008, 05:20 PM
See Jeremiah 25:11.
This prophecy will be completed by Iraq.

Hi Vinsight4u8,

There is nothing I can find in this verse that points to the future. All has long ago been fulfilled in the 6th century BC. So please prove your point.

Kind regards,

Dik

vinsight4u8
Dec 6th 2008, 05:40 PM
Hi

I'll try to explain it...

Jeremiah 25 takes place in the first year of Nebuchadnezzar II.
So make that 605 B.C., and it tells us that the Babylonians get seventy years to rule the nations.

25:11
And this whole land shall be a desolation, [and] an astonishment; and these nations shall serve the king of Babylon seventy years."

these nations
shall serve
the king of Babylon

Verse12
"And it shall come to pass, when seventy years are accomplished, [that] I will punish the king of Babylon.

So the 70 years must begin and end with a wicked king of Babylon.
a Babylonian

Israel was in captivity for 70 years, but part of that time was under the Medes and the Persians.
So that means Verse 12 is still waiting for a Babylonian king to bring in the end of a 70 years of time against the nations.


The chapter also gives a a list of nations that were to be under the king of Babylon -

Verse 17
"Then took I the cup at the LORD's hand, and made all the nations drink...
Verses18>25
"....Jerusalem....Egypt....all the kings of Arabia...all the kings of Elam, and all the kings of the Medes."

So a king of Jerusalem - Saudia Arabia, the Medes - Persians - can't count as being a king of Babylon for this prophecy as to the 70 years being fulfilled -as they are not Babylonians.

But what if the man of sin will be a Babylonian king - and he finishes the time left for the Babylonians to be ruler of the nations?

Nebuchadnezzar - and his followers used up so far 605 - 539 B. C. and then Cyrus the Persian took over Babylon.

So for Jeremiah's 25:11 prophecy to be in the past - the Babylonians would have to gained world power again and they did not.

So that is why the world now waits for the rising of the final king of the Babylonians.

In Rev. 17 it speaks of how the ten horns have not received their kingdom - but it doesn't lead in that same direction as to the beast; for it places him as a king that was.

the beast was ////died
is not ///while John gets the message
shall ascend out of the bottomless pit

vinsight4u8
Dec 6th 2008, 05:50 PM
Another thing that I find interesting is that Jeremiah has it written as to just before the time of Nebuchadnezzar - all of the previous yokes were broken off of Israel.

Okay, - then comes what Moses had foretold to Israel In Deuteronomy 28:48.

the yoke of iron

Jeremiah 28:14
"...saith the God of Israel: I have put a yoke of iron upon the neck of all these nations, that they may serve
Nebuchadnezzar..."

Nowhere does it ever tell us that this yoke was broken yet....but then we get to a prophecy as to "that day is great, so that none [is] like it", and we get told that

"...I will break his yoke from off thy neck..."

Jeremiah 30:7>8

modanufu
Dec 7th 2008, 12:37 PM
Thanks for your elaborate answer. I hope I'll not disappoint you because I do almost nowhere agree with you. But perhaps it will help you a bit if others give their opinion... :D


Hi

I'll try to explain it...

Jeremiah 25 takes place in the first year of Nebuchadnezzar II.
So make that 605 B.C., and it tells us that the Babylonians get seventy years to rule the nations.

25:11
And this whole land shall be a desolation, [and] an astonishment; and these nations shall serve the king of Babylon seventy years."

these nations
shall serve
the king of Babylon

Verse12
"And it shall come to pass, when seventy years are accomplished, [that] I will punish the king of Babylon.

So the 70 years must begin and end with a wicked king of Babylon.
a Babylonian


Yes but it only says that there will be "a" king of Babylon for 70 years, not "one and only one". And the answer you give yourself:



Nebuchadnezzar - and his followers used up so far 605 - 539 B. C. and then Cyrus the Persian took over Babylon.


That is, from the 3rd year of Jehoiakim to Cyrus is 70 years. I see here no future king.



But what if the man of sin will be a Babylonian king - and he finishes the time left for the Babylonians to be ruler of the nations?


I'm trying to understand what you say here because it is a sudden jump. You presuppose

(1) That the man of sin will be one individual (cf. 1 John 2:18 many antichrists).
(2) You move Jeremiah's fulfilled prophecy suddenly into the future.
(3) It is not clear to me that it makes any difference what nationality Antichrist will have.
(4) Iraqians are not Babylonians...



So for Jeremiah's 25:11 prophecy to be in the past - the Babylonians would have to gained world power again and they did not.

So that is why the world now waits for the rising of the final king of the Babylonians.


This I do not understand. Why should the Babylonians gain world power? They had "world power" in the sense Jer. and Dan. use "world". They never had "world power" in our modern sense.



In Rev. 17 it speaks of how the ten horns have not received their kingdom - but it doesn't lead in that same direction as to the beast; for it places him as a king that was.

the beast was ////died
is not ///while John gets the message
shall ascend out of the bottomless pit


What relation does this have to the ancient Babylon? Rev. clearly speaks of a "Babylon" that exists in John's time.
Rev. 17:18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.

"Reighneth" has present tense.


Kind regards,


Dik

vinsight4u8
Dec 7th 2008, 01:43 PM
I'll look more at your reply later. I have a question for you.

If you see Jer. 25:11 as ended with Cyrus as the Babylon king - then what king was punished and his land for Verse 12?

modanufu
Dec 7th 2008, 04:44 PM
I'll look more at your reply later. I have a question for you.

If you see Jer. 25:11 as ended with Cyrus as the Babylon king - then what king was punished and his land for Verse 12?

That is a misunderstanding. The king of Babylon was punished in vs. 11 and 12, but the means of punishing was by Cyrus the Persian king.

Dik

vinsight4u8
Dec 7th 2008, 07:15 PM
Cyrus didn't destroy Babylon's land - and he took down the last so far king of Babylon when Babylon still had between 3-4 years or so left to rule the world.


Verse 12 is clear that 70 years has to pass first. So

take - Nebuchadnezzar's day - 605 B.C.
and that means for this prophecy to be in the past - the last Babylonian king went down in 535 B.C,
however, Cyrus came in 539 B.C..

We need 70 years for the Babylonian kings.

Nebuchadnezzar 605 >>>>>>>>>>and then we can't find one in power to punish at the end of 70 years.

modanufu
Dec 8th 2008, 10:54 AM
Hi Vinsight,


Cyrus didn't destroy Babylon's land

He didn't even destroy the city! Babylon has never been destroyed, it dwindled slowly through the centuries until only a little village was left. It's in all books on archeology. Reading Isaiah 13-14 our first impression is that the city was destroyed in one little hour. This prophecy is about the ancient Babylonian empire because it mentions the Medians attacking it (Isa. 13:17) and it was God's revenge for the destruction of Jerusalem and His temple in 586 BC and for Judah's exile. If follows that Isaiah did not mean his prophecy to be understood in een wooden literal way. He predicted the fall of the Babylonian empire because that fall was needed for the return of God's people (Isa. 14:1).



- and he took down the last so far king of Babylon when Babylon still had between 3-4 years or so left to rule the world.

Verse 12 is clear that 70 years has to pass first. So

take - Nebuchadnezzar's day - 605 B.C.
and that means for this prophecy to be in the past - the last Babylonian king went down in 535 B.C,
however, Cyrus came in 539 B.C..

We need 70 years for the Babylonian kings.

Nebuchadnezzar 605 >>>>>>>>>>and then we can't find one in power to punish at the end of 70 years.
[/quote]

I don't think this is a good way of understanding the Scriptures. The Bible is not mathematics. It is written in everyday language and therefore one should understand the 70 years as a round number. Moreover, there will never be another Babylon:



Isaiah 13:20 "It shall never be inhabited, neither shall it be dwelt in from generation to generation."
Jeremiah 51:26 "Thou shalt be desolate for ever."
Ezekiel 26:21 "I will make thee a terror, and thou shalt be no more; though thou be sought for, yet shall thou never be found again."


The Babylon Revelation speaks about is not a revived Babylon.

Kind regards,
Dik

vinsight4u8
Dec 8th 2008, 01:27 PM
Why can't Babylon's land get attacked by the Medes in the end days?
Jeremiah 50-51 lays out a prophecy as to Babylon on the Euphrates River. It tells how one day all must flee there before the plagues come down on the land.

Daniel - didn't flee last time, so this must be end-time happenings.


Zechariah chapter 5 ends by revealing that Shinar's land is to rise again.

vinsight4u8
Dec 8th 2008, 01:30 PM
Rev. 18 is about the Babylon that made the nations drink - and that connects to the time of Jeremiah 25:15.

a cup was taken to the nations

the Babylonian sword was coming

At the end - it will be time to punish the king of Sheshach.
see 25:26

vinsight4u8
Dec 8th 2008, 01:32 PM
Was Jeremiah 29:10's 70 years just to be considered as a round figure too - as you see things in the Bible?

Jeremiah has given two 70-yr prophecies.

29:10
25:11

Daniel 9 shows that he is confused as to the 25:11 one - just when it will be finished.

vinsight4u8
Dec 8th 2008, 01:45 PM
Rev. 17 and Rev. 18 are not about the same places.

Rev. 17 refers to mystery, Babylon
Rev. 18 - shows that it is after this - and speaks as to the Babylon that made the nations drink.
It lines up Isaiah 47 as to the land of the Chaldeans.
Rev. 19 - is another after chapter - so it has another story - and it continues into chapter 20.


Jeremiah 50:12
"Your mother shall be sore confounded..."
////This is referring to the place of mystery, Babylon - the mother of harlots.
When her land goes down - that will be a signal - a warning that regular Babylon should expect her land to go down soon too.

Verse 1
"The word that the LORD spake against Babylon...the land of the Chaldeans..."
30
"Therefore shall he young men fall in the streets..."
35
"A sword is upon the Chaldeans, saith the LORD, and upon the inhabitants of Babylon..."
40
"As God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah....no man shall abide there..."
46
"At the noise of the taking of Babylon the earth is moved, and the cry is heard among the nations."
51:4
"Thus shall the slain fall in the land of the Chaldeans...thrust through in her streets."
6
"Flee out of the midst of Babylon, and deliver every man his soul..."
7
"Babylon hath been a golden cup...that made all the earth drunken..."
8
"Babylon is suddenly fallen and destroyed..."
v10
"The LORD hath brought forth our righteousness..."


Daniel 9:24
"Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people...to finish the transgression...to bring in everlasting righteousness..."

vinsight4u8
Dec 8th 2008, 02:38 PM
Jeremiah's two 70-yr prophecies began at the same time------but they were not destined to end at the same date.

29:10- just requires they go to Babylon for 70 years
25:11-12 - requires that a Babylonian king is in power - and gets punished at the end of a time of 70 years.

Just as in Isaiah 23:15 - it shows how Tyre has yet to rise again too.
She is forgotten - as in God holds back her punishment due - till the 70 years of a king come to pass. At that time - Trye will be singing as a harlot city.
- she is
the mother of harlots city - for Rev. 17

destroyed in Rev. 19:2

Raybob
Dec 8th 2008, 05:32 PM
Jeremiah's two 70-yr prophecies began at the same time------but they were not destined to end at the same date.

29:10- just requires they go to Babylon for 70 years
25:11-12 - requires that a Babylonian king is in power - and gets punished at the end of a time of 70 years.

Just as in Isaiah 23:15 - it shows how Tyre has yet to rise again too.
She is forgotten - as in God holds back her punishment due - till the 70 years of a king come to pass. At that time - Trye will be singing as a harlot city.
- she is
the mother of harlots city - for Rev. 17

destroyed in Rev. 19:2

It looks like you don't believe the scriptures Dik quoted you earlier.:

Isaiah 13:20 "It shall never be inhabited, neither shall it be dwelt in from generation to generation."

Jeremiah 51:26 "Thou shalt be desolate for ever."

Ezekiel 26:21 "I will make thee a terror, and thou shalt be no more; though thou be sought for, yet shall thou never be found again."

Raybob

modanufu
Dec 9th 2008, 11:41 AM
Hi Vinsight,



Why can't Babylon's land get attacked by the Medes in the end days?


Because there is no Babylon's land nowadays and those of the past were attacked by the Medes because God's time to punish Babylon for the destruction of Jerusalem etc. had come.

It's perhaps tempting for you to see Iraq and Iran in them but isn't that rather arbitrary? Probably in a few years relations in this fast changing world will be different again and will you then be joining the chorus that has sung so many "prophetic" songs already and will choose automatically a different song? From the telly and the newspapers I mean... :)


Jeremiah 50-51 lays out a prophecy as to Babylon on the Euphrates River. It tells how one day all must flee there before the plagues come down on the land.



Wouldn't you have fled in that time for those cruel Median armies? I would.


Daniel - didn't flee last time, so this must be end-time happenings.



Why should everyone flee in the endtime? Why shouldn't all happily join the army and destroy one another (Rev. 17:16-17)? Or if not so, will there be time to flee at all? Matthew 24:36-40.



Zechariah chapter 5 ends by revealing that Shinar's land is to rise again.


No, he doesn't.

Zech. 5:11
And he said unto me, To build it an house in the land of Shinar: and it shall be established, and set there upon her own base.

"It" is not the land of Shinar but the house. In this highly symbolic prophecy sin is brought to Babylon because in the past the Jews had been punished by being brought to Babylon. It is not wise to put this against those clear verses that say Babylon will never reappear.




Jeremiah's two 70-yr prophecies began at the same time------but they were not destined to end at the same date.

29:10- just requires they go to Babylon for 70 years
25:11-12 - requires that a Babylonian king is in power - and gets punished at the end of a time of 70 years.


They did indeed begin at the same time. Both prophecies start in 605 BC but then only part of the Jews were exiled. They both end with the end of the Babylonian empire in 538 after about 70 years.



Just as in Isaiah 23:15 - it shows how Tyre has yet to rise again too.
She is forgotten - as in God holds back her punishment due - till the 70 years of a king come to pass. At that time - Trye will be singing as a harlot city.


This happened in history. If some nations have risen again at the end of 70 years why should all nations have risen again? Strange conclusion!



- she is
the mother of harlots city - for Rev. 17


In Revelation John expresses his visions in OT scenery but does that mean that this verse is about Tyre?

Perhaps you don't realize from what OT cities John composed these chapters about Babylon: Babylon, Jerusalem, Nineveh, Tyre. Those four.

Not only Tyre was a harlot, Jerusalem too.
Rev. 17:16-17 refers back to Ezekiel 16 and 23 which is about Jerusalem.

So if you want to be consistent and transpose them to the present you'll get the picture that Iraq (Babylon, Nineveh), Israel (Jerusalem), Lebanon (Tyre) all sit happily together on their seven hills. It is too good to be true (thinking about all that hate against the modern state Israel). But will Victory then be in sight? ;)

Of course you may change your construction in such a way that it parallels the present but what prove do you then have? How can you be sure it's not pure phantasy what you're doing? :cry:



destroyed in Rev. 19:2


Why Rev. 19:2? If Tyre is within Babylon then it is destroyed in those same chapters. The passage about the lamentation of the kings in Rev. 18:9-10 is directly taken from the lamentation about Tyre in Ezekiel 26:16-17. See also Rev. 17:16.


Rev. 17 and Rev. 18 are not about the same places.


Rev. 17 refers to mystery, Babylon
Rev. 18 - shows that it is after this - and speaks as to the Babylon that made the nations drink.
It lines up Isaiah 47 as to the land of the Chaldeans.


According to the text Rev. 17 and 18 are all about the same Babylon.

Rev. 17:2 With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication.
Rev. 18:3 For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath [= passion] of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her.


Rev. 19 - is another after chapter - so it has another story - and it continues into chapter 20.



Chapters did not yet exist at the time Revelation was written. So you'll have to look at the text itself for its right division into sections. This is shown by two sections beginning and ending in the same way, the section about Babylon is from 17:1-19:10, the section about Jerusalem is from 21:9-22:9. In between is a section in four subdivisions, all ending with "the lake of fire". Three sections from 17:1-22:9 plus a concluding section up to the end. It's very clear. See for yourself. One should follow the natural divisions given by the book itself, not one's own imagination, isn't it?

It's a mistake to think that 19:11-21 is another story because it is another chapter. John only changes his representations because the Babylon section as well as 19:11-21 are about the same destruction of Babylon. Babylon and the reign of the beast are identical (Rev. 14:8). The text says it so what can we do?

I'm sorry I can't respond to all that you write. It simply is too much! But I hope this will give you some food for thought.

Kind regards,

Dik

vinsight4u8
Dec 17th 2008, 10:19 AM
People did not flee the land of Babylon when Cyrus came.
They saw him as a liberator.

There was even a pagan deal going on at the time - and Cyrus didn't even stop it.

Israel has yet to come to the time in the Bible where she will flee from Babylon as destruction is to befall Babylon - via plagues.

vinsight4u8
Dec 17th 2008, 10:21 AM
Rev. 19 starts a new story - due to the word "after". I didn't say it was because of the chapter break.

John divided up the various stories in Revelation.

We are to make sections.

such as - chapter 4 - after
15:5 - after
chapter 18 - after
chapter 19 -after

vinsight4u8
Dec 17th 2008, 10:23 AM
Rev. 12 - there appeared
a great wonder in heaven

Rev. 15:1
"And I saw another sign in heaven..."

John made a section as to signs.

vinsight4u8
Dec 17th 2008, 10:26 AM
Rev. 17 is where the angel would show him - mystery, Babylon - the city.

Rev. 18 - is an "after" chapter
so - begins a new story

"And after these things I saw..."

So let chapter 17 end - and start a new prophecy picture of events.

Rev. 18 is no longer the angel showing the same city of Rev. 17.

Rev. 17 - I will shew thee
Rev. 18 - after these things
I saw another angel

modanufu
Dec 18th 2008, 11:42 AM
Hi Vinsight,

Good you started to answer again. I did not forget you either though I had some health problems for a time. Let's see...


People did not flee the land of Babylon when Cyrus came.

They saw him as a liberator.


That's true. André Parrot in his book "Babylone et l'Ancien Testament" agrees with you. So what could Jeremiah have meant when he wrote:

Jer. 51:6 Flee out of the midst of Babylon, and deliver every man his soul: be not cut off in her iniquity; for this is the time of the LORD’S vengeance; he will render unto her a recompence.
Jer. 50:8 Remove out of the midst of Babylon, and go forth out of the land of the Chaldeans, and be as the he goats before the flocks.

You see, before making a giant jump to the time ahead of us I think it is advisable to try to understand what Jeremiah meant by this. Because this prophecy was written to his contemporaries and we know he wrote letters to the Jewish exiles in Babylon, I think it is safe to suppose that he addressed himself to those Jewish exiles. We also know that there were many Jews who did not join Ezra on his return to Kanaan. So what he must have meant is an incentive to stay away from the paganism of Babylon and leave the country because their future was tied up with the promised land where Messiah would come.

But what can this mean nowadays? Rev. 18:4 quotes these two verses of Jeremiah but its meaning depends wholly on the interpretation we give of the section on Babylon. Let's skip that for a moment and go to an easier NT verse that refers to the same passage in Jeremiah:

2 Cor. 6:17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you,

Paul admonishes us here to stop imitating the world with its sinful customs and clean ourselves of them. This is the way to come nearer to God, as you undoubtedly know. :)

Well, that's a clear explanation of those Jeremiah verses for our spersonal situation. But it there yet another application to the future? Honestly, I doubt it.


Rev. 17 is where the angel would show him - mystery, Babylon - the city.


Rev. 18 - is an "after" chapter
so - begins a new story

"And after these things I saw..."

So let chapter 17 end - and start a new prophecy picture of events.

Rev. 18 is no longer the angel showing the same city of Rev. 17.

Rev. 17 - I will shew thee
Rev. 18 - after these things
I saw another angel

"After these things" only means: "Next". We have it also in Rev. 19:1. And, indeed, you're right, a new prophecy picture comes up. But from its content I would deduce that it treats exactly the same topic as in Rev. 17, that is: the fall of Babylon, as already mentioned in Rev. 16:19.
Likewise in Rev. 19:1 following "After these things" there is a new picture. But no new subject. Because it is an answer to Rev. 18:20 --

Rev. 18:20 Rejoice over her, thou heaven, and ye holy apostles and prophets; for God hath avenged you on her.

Moreover Rev. 19:2-3 refers back to ch. 17-18 by saying:

Rev. 19:2 for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.
Rev. 19:3 And again they said, Alleluia. And her smoke rose up for ever and ever.

Now we ought always first of all to explain verses in the context of the book itself. It is the only safe method to escape our own speculations and wishes what it should mean according to our own thought. And there is an explanation in Rev. 14:9-11 --

Rev. 14:9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
Rev. 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
Rev. 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

Smoke rising in all eternity clearly is the eternal punishment, in other words: hell. Babylon consists apparently of all worshippers of the beast (cf. Rev. 14:8).

But, concluding from the OT verses I quoted earlier, this Babylon cannot be the ancient Babylon revived. So what is Babylon in Rev. 17-18?

Kind regards,

Dik

vinsight4u8
Dec 20th 2008, 10:25 AM
Jeremiah 27:6-7
"And now have I given all these lands into the hand of Nebuchadnezzar.....And all nations shall serve him, and his son, and his son's son, until the very time of his land come...."
KJV


Isaiah 14:22
"..her time [is] near to come..."

V6
"...it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty."
>God won't begin to destroy till the 7th trumpet
>look at Rev. 11:18

V9
"Behold, the day of the LORD cometh....he shall destroy the sinners..."
V10
"For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened..."
>look at the 6th seal of Rev. 6

V11
"And I will punish the world for [their] evil..."
V13
"Therefore I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her place..."
V19
"And Babylon, the glory of kingdoms, the beauty of the Chaldees...shall be as when God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah."
V14
"For the LORD will have mercy on Jacob, and will choose Israel..."

This is not about the days of Cyrus. People did not flee Babylon when Cyrus came. Daniel didn't even flee the land.

"till the very time of his land come"

The he - being Nebuchadnezzar.

Iraq is where the man of sin will come from - he will attack Egypt and Israel - and do the things of Daniel 11:21 - the role of the vile person.

vinsight4u8
Dec 20th 2008, 10:57 AM
605 B.C.
to
539 B.C.

is not 70 years

Nebuchadnezzar to Cyrus is not 70 years.

The ac ruler of Iraq will finish out the time left for Babylon to wind up her 70 years.

vinsight4u8
Dec 20th 2008, 11:00 AM
Zechariah - chapter 5
tells the account of how the 20 by 10 site of God -the place of His name
was taken wickedly - crossed by Nebuchadnezzar

by the land of Shinar

So - this brings a curse that must pass one day on the land of Shinar.

To do this - since Babylon had already fallen - Babylon must one day rise again.

So - an ephah - a piece of fallen Shinar - was returned to Shinar - to build a house - a kingdom.
a palace
a throne

Because one day - the man of sin - the vile person of Daniel 11:21 will come from this place.

vinsight4u8
Dec 20th 2008, 01:14 PM
From Holman Bible Dictionary
pages 142-143

"Nebuchadnezzar II (605 -562 B.C.)
"His successors "his son Awel-marduk (561-560 B.C.)"
"Neriglissar (560 -558 B.C)"
Labashi-Marduk (557 B.C.), murdered as a mere child"
Nabonidus (556-539 B.C.) joint under Belshazzar at the end

"In 539 B.C., The Persian Cyrus II (the Great) entered Babylon
without a fight. Thus ended Babylon's dominant role in Near
Eastern politics."

modanufu
Dec 20th 2008, 02:03 PM
Hi Vinsight,

You don't give up, do you? Well, that's OK with me.:)

Regarding to Isaiah 13-14 IMHO this chapter has two layers of meaning (as so many passages in the Bible). Isaiah refers here not only to the fall of ancient Babylon (which is future for him) but also to the end of the world:


"For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened..."

>look at the 6th seal of Rev. 6


I think you're right on this point. It is the second coming Isaiah is referring to here. Personally I find it easier to suppose here two layers of meaning, one in connection with the fall of the ancient Babylon, one in connection with the second coming of our Lord in which "Babylon" is a type of the world. Because then you don't have the big problems of proving that the whole chapter is only and exclusively for the time of the end.

Besides, this is precisely what Rev. 17-18 does. These chapters use ancient Babylon as a type of the world.

My opinion of the 6th seal of Rev. is that it is about the second coming.



Because one day - the man of sin - the vile person of Daniel 11:21 will come from this place.


Well, as you know by now, here I disagree with you. Not because I just like to disagree for the fun of disagreeing. You know, those verses that Babylon will not be rebuilt are so clear and inevitable!!! What can I do?

Isaiah 13:20 "It shall never be inhabited, neither shall it be dwelt in from generation to generation."

Jeremiah 51:26 "Thou shalt be desolate for ever."

Ezekiel 26:21 "I will make thee a terror, and thou shalt be no more; though thou be sought for, yet shall thou never be found again."

Dear brother, can't you see my point of view? You don't have to agree with me but can you imagine what problems a simple Bible student like me meets with the idea that it is all about Iraq?



Because one day - the man of sin - the vile person of Daniel 11:21 will come from this place.


But if this isn't true, what then? I discussed a few years ago something like this with a very sympathetic brother in Christ who was cocksure that Saddam Husein was the antichrist. He was still alive then (I mean Saddam, not that brother :lol:). But when he was executed this brother did not say he had been mistaken. Not at all. He said that Saddam would revive one day, exactly in line with Rev. 13. Hm. I don't know what he thinks now but I hope for the best.

But does it make any difference for us whether the man of sin will come from Iraq "one day"? That is, if antichrist is a unique person, a statement which is not at all so certain as you seem to suppose.

I mean, have you ever thought what the idea of an/the antichrist involves in practice for us today? For us Christians one thing is important: to persevere in the faith and to do that, one needs to grow in faith and love. Antichrist, whatever he is, in essence means: people that try to bring you to apostacy, to turn you off from the Gospel to false teachings and false practices. That is what the apostle John is so concerned about in his letters. But whether he will come from Iraq or from the Jews (as some early church fathers thought) or out of the Church (as other early church fathers thought), if he will sit in a rebuilt temple in Jerusalem or not, does this change anything for us in everyday life?

I do certainly not say that you do not follow the Lord, I only point to what's the most important thing in life. I have known people who suffered of "endtime fever". It really threw a gloomy shadow on their lives. They saw enemies everywhere and had problems making plans for the future. It may even make you give up your study or your job because you think the end is all too near. A wrong conclusion if they had listened to Paul:

2 Thess. 2:15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.
16 Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God, even our Father, which hath loved us, and hath given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace,
17 Comfort your hearts, and stablish you in every good word and work.

Perhaps needless to say this to you, perhaps useful to some other reader, who knows?

Kind regards,

Dik

vinsight4u8
Dec 25th 2008, 10:46 AM
I have never believed that Saddam is the ac - or even considered it. right country - but it is too early

As a teen I saw that we are in the prophecy of Daniel 11.
Daniel 11:13 is a split in time verse.

"after certain years"

So the first section is all past - the remaining begins a part shoved to the end times.

This is why I watch for the Palestinians to fall.

as the robbers role of Verse 14

"And in those times there shall many stand up against the king of the south..."
=?
the assassination of Anwar Sadat
1981

brings the VP of Egypt to power
=Murbarak

...also the robbers of thy people..."
=?
Israel must be in her own land.

Others of violence dwell in that same land.

"the robbers of thy people shall exalt themselves..."
=?
November 15, 1988
when the Palestnians declared independence

I expect them to fall in 2009.

Iraq will then attack Israel.

vinsight4u8
Dec 25th 2008, 10:50 AM
As for Verses as to the fall or desolation of Babylon - they must be placed in their right place as to the timeline of overall events.

past, present and future


There are also Verses that show the land of Israel - Jerusalem will never again be made desolate - so how can that have come yet to pass?

Same with Babylon - till certain other prophecies are met - Babylon has not yet fallen - so as to not rise again.



The Babylonian kings have yet to complete their God-given 70 years as time over the nations.

vinsight4u8
Dec 25th 2008, 11:36 AM
Let's just see how things unfold. I'm not a person that has swayed in my beliefs as to the endtimes. What I have as a view has been my beliefs for many many years. I would have been fine just mostly keeping them to myself, but I don't believe that is what God wanted or wants me to do. I started to tell people what I believed as to the timing of the rapture because people that I was speaking to wanted to know what I thought. I told them that I believe the Lord will come for the church in the 6th seal and the 7th trumpet is sounded during that same seal. I also told them that I had yet to read the entire Bible but I was hard at work on that project. But because I was so young - a teenager - and preaching about Jesus - to strangers at places - on the sidewalk, etc. - they wanted to know my opinions on the endtimes.
Well, I have since read the Bible repeatedly over the years and nothing I find ever changes my beliefs. I didn't learn from false prophet books or such. It was from my own in-depth studying and answered prayers.

Unlike what you seem to believe - I rarely ever look at a paper, didn't even know how much they even charge for one now - till I needed some for wrapping the other day.

When I began to look more as to prophecy - I was reading the entire Bible - front to back - and the Psalms and Proverbs (sections over and over again). I asked God to show me when the rapture is, then soon also who the man of sin is going to be and where he is from - if we can understand all of that.
I was happy with what He showed me in the Verses and later He called me to do the horses of Revelation. After that I would understand that certain parts would be made clearer to me as to other prophecy events.

such as - mystery, Babylon

Rev. 17 - was given by one angel to John
Rev. 18 - begins a new section - "after" that.
as in shut down the reason for chapter 17
let a new picture begin in chapter 18

same with chapter 19




If the Palestinians fall soon - then see what leader comes to the rescue.
Because Daniel 11:15-21 has the next and next leaders - all standing up in his estate.

war with Israel
a prince - stops the war
?prince of the covenant
then
a raiser of taxes
then
a vile person
overflows the prince of the covenant
makes a league
=Daniel 9:27 - confirms the covenant with many

vinsight4u8
Dec 25th 2008, 11:47 AM
I do want to go into depth as to why the Lord will come back during the 6th seal.

Jesus is not coming in secret.
The church is here for the great tribulation.

The church is here till God shows His face!

The wicked will hide from His glory.
see Isaiah 2:10-21


Then the church - the all changed saints will go to heaven - get their marriage attire - and return as armies from heaven - as shown in chapter 19 of Revelation.
One army will continue on to the battle of Armageddon.

Remember two armies come down - but only one army heads to fight the beast.
Why?
Because the other army - the great tribulation martyred people already defeated him by their death.

After the battle is over - Satan is bound - and the two armies take their seats to reign with Christ.
for 1000 years

afterwards Satan is loosed
goes out to deceive the nations again
for a short time

vinsight4u8
Dec 25th 2008, 11:49 AM
Have a Merry Christmas today!

modanufu
Dec 25th 2008, 05:08 PM
Thanks, Vinsight! I wish you a good Christmas too!

Thanks also for telling me so much about your views. We have all our ways of looking at the prophecies. I started as a dispensationalist because our group was in that line. I read many books of that school until I found one that gave a systematic view of things and when I checked that I found out that the NT said something else, i.e. that the rapture is on the Lord's day:



1 Thess. 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
5:1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

The coming of the Lord on the day of the Lord. A great simplification compared to the complicated Prophetic Map of dispensationalism. But then regarding Revelation I had to begin all over again. This gave me a lot of work, of course, but in this way I also became well at home in the Holy Scriptures. I have studied the Bible for, say, 25 years or a little longer and have the feeling that I begin somewhat to understand prophecy.

So you see, we have all our insights and they differ sometimes enormously. All we can do is discuss things with each other and hope we help each other to see things clearer, isn't it?

Your explanation of Dan. 11:13 I find somewhat unusual. Normally it is understood that Dan. 11:1-39 is history from the time Daniel lived until the time of Antiochus Epiphanes, the OT antichrist. I can find no time gap in Dan. 11:13 at all. Perhaps I need your glasses...

To make it easy for myself I quote Poole for this verse:



Antiochus the Great shall raise great forces, even from Babylon and Media; Philopater being dead, and Ptolemy Epiphanes his son yet a child, under whom Agathocles, a dissolute, proud person, hated of all, governed Egypt as his viceroy.
You see, all this can easily be explained in a historical way and even Jerome did this already in his commentary on Daniel. It is the usual explanation. I can see no endtime here at all.

Antiochus Epiphanes appears for the first time in Dan. 11:21 as "a vile person". The time of the end is first mentioned in Dan. 11:35 and in Dan. 11:40 starts "the time of the end", whatever is understood by that.

So what reason do you have to choose Dan. 11:13 as the beginning of the time of the end, and not, e.g. Dan. 11:1 (to place everything from the beginning at once into the future) or Dan. 11:40?

And in all those cases you need a time gap, a thing I see as problematic because it is not visible in the text.

Although I have to admit that I cannot give myself a clear explanation of Dan. 11:40 etc. And I'm certainly not the only one!

You wrote:



I expect them to fall in 2009.
Iraq will then attack Israel.

We'll see. We'll see. It looks like we still need a lot of time for Iraq being strong enough for such an attack. Iran perhaps, but not Iraq.



I do want to go into depth as to why the Lord will come back during the 6th seal.

I'm better at Revelation than at Daniel, you know, so I'm glad you mention this. I agree that the 6th seal is at the Second Coming. It's difficult to disagree because the words of the verse say it explicitly. But then IMHO the 7th trumpet is about the same event, and the fall of Babylon likewise.



Jesus is not coming in secret. The church is here for the great tribulation.

The church is here till God shows His face!

The wicked will hide from His glory.
see Isaiah 2:10-21

With this I can agree too!



Then the church - the all changed saints will go to heaven - get their marriage attire

Agreed.



- and return as armies from heaven - as shown in chapter 19 of Revelation.
One army will continue on to the battle of Armageddon.

Not agreed. The heavenly army in Rev. 19 I see as angels. We Christians are people of love and peace. We don't fight with weapons.

By the way, have you ever found out that in Rev. 19 there is no fight at all? No battle. Just forget all the endtime schemes and look at the text as if you see it for the first time. The Lord never comes on the earth. The beast's army does not fight. They are ready to fight but no battle begins. The beast and the false prophet are "caught", that is all, and the army is killed by the sword, that is: the Word of the Lord. No battle, no blood, no fight. Our Lord doesn't need that. He has all power in heaven and in earth.

Besides, why should we as citizens of Heaven come back to the earth? I read something else in the Bible:



Hebrews 11:16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.

Do they desire a heavenly country for a few years only? Or for ever?



2 Corinthians 5:1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

Clear words. Much clearer than Dan. 11, if you ask me. I keep to this and see this as The Great Promise.


Kind regards,
Dik

vinsight4u8
Dec 26th 2008, 07:58 AM
The clues abound as to the Lord Jesus is coming in the 6th seal.

One is this - the 7th seal meaning.

If we look at Isaiah 65:6-7
"Behold, [it is] written before me: I will not keep silence, but will recompense...therefore will I measure their former work into their bosom."
=so Israel will only be punished during the time of less than full amounts.
God will measure out - as in Israel will only suffer during the time of things that are measured out as in thirds.
The vials comes in full portions - so are not for the land of Israel.


Isaiah 62:1-4
"For Zion's sake will I not hold my peace, and for Jerusalem's sake I will not rest, until the righteousness...neither shall thy land any more be termed Desolate..."

=God will not rest till righteousness - the righteousness time spoken of in Daniel 9:24.

Isaiah 18:4
"For so the LORD said unto me, I will take my rest, and I will consider in my dwelling place..."

=after the harvest of the church - God will rest - keep silence

After the 7th seal time of silence - the once had trumpet jobs angels show up -
= John sees them back now because it is time for them to pour out the vials of God's wrath on the wicked.
(coming in full amount stuff)

People try to have just now the seeing of the trumpet time - but it won't work that way as John has.
"the seven angels"

Rev. 8:1
"And when he had opened the seventh seal..."
V2
"And I saw the seven angels..."
=John has already seen them and told us about them.
or he would have written - "seven angels"

as in I saw seven angels
- then forever after that they would be "the seven angels"

Take a look at chapter 4.

a door was opened
a throne was set
one sat on the throne

four and twenty seats
upon the seats

four beasts
"And the four beasts had each of them..."

Use chapter 1 as another example.
a great voice
turned to see the voice
saw seven golden candlesticks
in the midst of the seven candlesticks

had...seven stars
V20
"The mystery of the seven stars..."

vinsight4u8
Dec 26th 2008, 08:25 AM
Daniel 11 begins with the fact that it is linked to chapter 10.

10:21
"But I will shew thee...in the scripture of truth..."
11:2
"And now will I shew thee the truth..."

At the end of chapter 10 the being was in need of leaving to fight the prince of Persia. This meant that he didn't have time enough to finish the information that he wanted to discuss with Daniel as to chapter 10.

We know that Michael holds this time of the future.

"10:21
"But I will shew thee that...none that holdeth with me in these things, but Michael..."

2 Thessalonians 2:6
"And now ye know what withholdeth..."
V3-4
"...that man of sin be revealed...who opposeth and exalteth himself..."
=
Daniel 11:36
"And the king shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself..."

Now some believe that the man of sin wants only himself worshipped - as in all other fake gods are denied.
But

11:38
"But in his estate
= so we know it is not Israel where he is from

...shall he honour the God of forces: and a god whom his fathers knew not..."

Some try to make V40 be where the endtime part starts since it has "And at the time of the end..."

But this just means - at the time of the end of the battles betwen the kings of the north and the south.

V40
"...shall the king of the south push at him..."
him?
We need previous sections to understand this him?
The last time we are introduced to a new king of the north is back in V21.

Of all the kings mentioned in this chapter - only once did one get referred to as "vile".

V21
"And in his estate shall stand up a vile person..."
V22
"...overflown from before him..."
V23
"...league made with him..."
V24
"...he shall scatter...spoil and riches..."
V25
...he shall stir up his power and his courage against the south...."
V27
"And both these kings..."
V28
"Then he shall return into his land..."
V29
"At the time appointed he shall return..."
V30
"For the ships of Chittim shall come against him..."
"...have indignation against the holy covenant..."
V31
"And arms shall stand on his part..."
V32
"...shall he corrupt by flatteries..."

V33 is interesting for it brings into the picture people that understand. Daniel told us that his book is sealed till the time of the end.

"And they that understand among the people shall instruct many..."

They are warning about the guy that came to power back in V21.


So let the man of sin rise to power in V21, then just take small steps backward to come to understand what is to happen in the years before the evil ruler of V21 comes to power.

vinsight4u8
Dec 26th 2008, 08:32 AM
Daniel 10:19 is a good place to look at - for some try to make this is as over long ago.

But - who was it then?
Antiochus the Great - they'll say

But - wait - he does't fit

Here's why.

Verse 15-19 foretell of a great middle eastern war and this king of the north is winning - until someone turns on him, then he will head back - or turn his face toward the fort of his own land.

Oops - this guy will disappear and not be found

Antiochus the Great went back after war to the west - ruled his own land longer - then heads east to plunder fake god temples in Iran's land (Persia).
So was he found?
Yes - he was killed by a mob.
No search was made for his body- he was killed while plundering a fake god temple.

A whole bunch of people found him - a mob knew where he died.

So not only was Antiochus not heading back from a war with Israel - but he was murdered to the east - and found by many.

vinsight4u8
Dec 26th 2008, 08:42 AM
So where in chapter 11 does the part as the endtime picture begin?

V13
"For the king of the north shall return, and shall set forth a multitude. great than the former, and shall

certainly come after certain years

with a great army...."

See a problem here?

We have too many multitudes being mentioned.
We already were told that the king of the north set forth a greater than the former multitude spoken of in the other verses.

Yet now - we then get told - with a great army.

What if we are to split these apart?

king of the north
great multitude

after certain years

king of the north
has a great army

V14
"And in those times there shall many stand up against the king of the south..."

It doesn't say - other armies stand up against that king -or even that the king of the north does.

"And in those times there shall many stand up against the king of the south..."
How about the "many" are those in his own country?

So we have
after certain years
Saddam
with a great army

then in those times
many stood up against the ruler of Egypt
(assassinated Anwar Sadat)
1981

We don't find in this part any mention as to the south is now against the north or such - instead we are told about the "robbers of thy people".
robbers of Daniel's people
that will exalt themselves

the Palestinians - Nov. 15, 1988

"...the robbers of thy people shall exalt themselves to establish the vision..."

What vision?
Remember this chapter links up with chapter 10 - so it is the vision that made Daniel mourn for three full weeks.

Daniel 10:1-2 links up with 11:14.
We now watch a vision of three full weeks begin to unfold.
this vision would thus end - approx. 2009-2010

vinsight4u8
Dec 26th 2008, 08:54 AM
Rev. 19:14
"And the armies [which were] in heaven followed him...clothed in fine linen, white and clean."

"armies" - so more than one

Rev. 20:4
"And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them..."
they?
Who?

We have to let previous verses reveal that to us.

Rev. 19:19
"...against his army."

Do you agree this battle is the same one found in the 6th vial?
see Rev. 16:14

Rev. 19 - has the marriage poeple get the attire that is later mentioned on the armies from heaven.
But only a single army heads to take down the beast.

Why?
Because before the saints will get to reign - all of them must overcome the beast.
The one army - the great tribulation martyrs gave their lives - so already defeated the beast.
The rest of the saints - will head to Armageddon - for the taking down of the beast.

Then - in chapter 20 - all of the saints will get seated to reign with Christ.

vinsight4u8
Dec 26th 2008, 08:59 AM
See how Rev. 19 began as an "after" type of chapter. It therefore begins a new story. Chapter 20 doesn't tell us that - so it is a continuation of chapter 19's detailed picture.

Rev. 19:1
"And after these things I..."

So we close out chapter 18's picture and let chapter 19 place us at the start of a new story.

"after these things"

As in - not continuing those things of chapter 18.

vinsight4u8
Dec 26th 2008, 09:07 AM
Take the V you mentioned - as to 2 Cor.5 as to we desire to be clothed upon.
as in - to mean the church should never be afraid of losing her clothes - garments

then - head to Rev. 16 and see though that a time is coming when people better not lose their clothes - garments.
the reason -
If they die - they will be forever lost.
God is not giving out new clothes at this time of His coming.
He will come as a thief - but not be handing out any eternal life bodies for this coming.


For - the church took all of the eternal life outfits for dead people back at the time of the 7th trumpet.
The time when at the same hour as a great earthquake - the Rev. 11 two witnesses arose from the dead at cloud time.

Just as in Daniel 12 it shows us - Daniel is allowed to go and rest - till the 1290th day - but those for the 1335th day -those hanging on till then - trying to stay alive - will only be blessed if they wait - and come to the day.

wait - as in don't they die
- don't they rest

for the resurrection of the righteousness (1290th day new outfits given out group) already took place - and only the resurrection of wicked people is yet in the future

as in - keep your garments
(don't lose your skin)

modanufu
Dec 27th 2008, 11:15 AM
Hi Vinsight,


The clues abound as to the Lord Jesus is coming in the 6th seal.


The meaning of the 6th seal is clear enough if you read it. You don't have to back it up by other proofs. Some people don't think it is about the Second Coming because they are used to follow the mistaken rule that in Revelation what come's next must necessarily always come later in time.

Well, perhaps we misunderstand each other here, I don't know. I believe in only one Second Coming, with rapture, last judgment, passing of heaven and earth, all in one great all-encompassing event. The Great Day. The Day of (eternal) Judgment. But you may be thinking along pretrib or midtrib or posttrib lines or in terms of a series of raptures. Do you?


One is this - the 7th seal meaning.


There are perhaps as many explanations of the 7th seal as there are commentaries...
Another difficulty is that people everywhere think they see predictions of future events.

As far as I understand Rev. 4-6 is like this. The opening of the book is a symbolic representation of the death and resurrection of our Lord (Rev. 5:9-10) as a sequence to the message in Rev. 1 (same voice speaking = same message, Rev. 4:1). Through his death and resurrection He has opened the OT, the book that was sealed (Daniel 12:9; Luke 24:32), revealing and fulfilling its content. This book or scroll is opened only after all the seals have been broken so that the 7th seal is not accompanied by any vision. The book is then opened and the full content of it follows (as far as is needed for the readers, of course). The first six seals give a summary of the Lord's government from Easter/Pentecost to Parousia. That's how I see it.

So I think the 7th seal doesn't have any meaning. The silence does not have any secret content, it is just that in the vision the book is now open and the Lord is going to unveil what He will do in the period mentioned and what we Christians will have to do. This same period is covered by the 7 trumpets. Revelation has been written to help us to "overcome", just like all the other writings of the apostle John.

IMHO the silence refers to what is going to happen in the vision. At the Lord's ascension He entered the temple, that is His kingdom (Luke 23:42) because He is King and Priest in one Person. He entered the temple to offer the incense -- what is made explicit in the next verses, Rev. 8:3-5. The believers wait outside in silent prayer until the priest comes out again (see Luke 1:10 for the ceremony). The silence, then, means that the whole creation is dependent on what the Lord Jesus Christ is going to do.



=so Israel will only be punished during the time of less than full amounts.

God will measure out - as in Israel will only suffer during the time of things that are measured out as in thirds.
The vials comes in full portions - so are not for the land of Israel.

I only choose a fragment of what you wrote. Reading Revelation beginning by ch. 1 up to ch. 8 I not once met something that looks like mentioning Israel (except perhaps "the synagogue of satan" -- I very much sympathize with the Jews and the state of Israel but I think Revelation refers to their enmity against the Christians). So where are they suddenly coming from? :confused


Another thing. I'm not sure I understand you rightly but it seems that in your view the trumpets are for Israel and the vials for "the wicked" (= non-Jews???). But this cannot be done. Firstly there is not a word about Israel in the trumpet section. Secondly, the vials are the "last plagues" over the world, implying that the trumpets (at least the first six trumpets) are the "first plagues" over the same category of people. So you'll have to prove first of all that the trumpets are for the Jews and the vials not.


Vinsight, dear brother, you write so much in such a rapid pace that I cannot answer it all. Let's first deal with the above and reserve the rest for later, OK?

Kind regards,

Dik

modanufu
Dec 27th 2008, 02:59 PM
Back again. I kept reading on today and have answered the rest also::)

SECOND INSTALLMENT



Daniel 11 begins with the fact that it is linked to chapter 10.

10:21
"But I will shew thee...in the scripture of truth..."
11:2
"And now will I shew thee the truth..."

At the end of chapter 10 the being was in need of leaving to fight the prince of Persia. This meant that he didn't have time enough to finish the information that he wanted to discuss with Daniel as to chapter 10.

DIK: The division into chapters is not a part of the original text. It has been introduced somewhere in the middle ages because it made it much easier to look things up.


We know that Michael holds this time of the future.

"10:21
"But I will shew thee that...none that holdeth with me in these things, but Michael..."

2 Thessalonians 2:6
"And now ye know what withholdeth..."
V3-4
"...that man of sin be revealed...who opposeth and exalteth himself..."
=
Daniel 11:36
"And the king shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself..."

DIK: This is confusing. In what way do the Persians link up with the man of sin?


Now some believe that the man of sin wants only himself worshipped - as in all other fake gods are denied.
But

11:38
"But in his estate
= so we know it is not Israel where he is from
DIK: Of course Antiochus Epiphanes was not from Israel...


...shall he honour the God of forces: and a god whom his fathers knew not..."

Some try to make V40 be where the endtime part starts since it has "And at the time of the end..."

But this just means - at the time of the end of the battles betwen the kings of the north and the south.
DIK: Then when do those battles end? In Dan. 11:45 he is at his last battle but that is also the end of all things. Remember, chapters are not in the original text, so "at that time" in Dan. 12:1 refers back to this last battle. It is the time of great trouble, of the salvation and resurrection of all believers and the condemnation of all the godless in hell.


V40
"...shall the king of the south push at him..."
him?
We need previous sections to understand this him?
The last time we are introduced to a new king of the north is back in V21.
DIK: This "him" is in the context clearly the king of the north.


Of all the kings mentioned in this chapter - only once did one get referred to as "vile".

DIK: Yes, but that is Antiochus Epiphanes.


V21
"And in his estate shall stand up a vile person..."
V22
"...overflown from before him..."
V23
"...league made with him..."
V24
"...he shall scatter...spoil and riches..."
V25
...he shall stir up his power and his courage against the south...."
V27
"And both these kings..."
V28
"Then he shall return into his land..."
V29
"At the time appointed he shall return..."
V30
"For the ships of Chittim shall come against him..."
"...have indignation against the holy covenant..."
V31
"And arms shall stand on his part..."
V32
"...shall he corrupt by flatteries..."

DIK: All this happened in detail in history. It's in all the commentaries.


V33 is interesting for it brings into the picture people that understand. Daniel told us that his book is sealed till the time of the end.

"And they that understand among the people shall instruct many..."

They are warning about the guy that came to power back in V21.

So let the man of sin rise to power in V21, then just take small steps backward to come to understand what is to happen in the years before the evil ruler of V21 comes to power.
DIK: Yes, but this is all past history, it's all BC.

3RD INSTALMENT



Daniel 10:19 is a good place to look at - for some try to make this is as over long ago.

DIK: You apparently mean 11:19. That's OK.


But - who was it then?
Antiochus the Great - they'll say

DIK: Yes, see e.g. Poole:



Being beaten in battle by Scipio, with thirty thousand Romans, he himself having seventy thousand, and rejecting the counsel of Hannibal, he yielded upon dishonourable terms to deliver his ships and elephants to the Romans, and all the places he had taken from them, which turned to his disgrace. Then he turned his face homeward, and was made to be content with the narrow limits of the remotest corner of his kingdom; and though he sported himself with his retirement, yet was he not in safety so, but was slain when he sought to enrich himself by the sacrilegious spoils of the temple. Thus Antiochus called Magnus came to nothing.



But - wait - he does't fit

Here's why.

Verse 15-19 foretell of a great middle eastern war and this king of the north is winning - until someone turns on him, then he will head back - or turn his face toward the fort of his own land.

DIK: It's only a war between the king of the north (Syria) and the south (Egypt).


Oops - this guy will disappear and not be found
DIK: This means he died. No problem here. Daniel is everywhere using mysterious language.


Antiochus the Great went back after war to the west - ruled his own land longer - then heads east to plunder fake god temples in Iran's land (Persia).
So was he found?
Yes - he was killed by a mob.
No search was made for his body- he was killed while plundering a fake god temple.

A whole bunch of people found him - a mob knew where he died.

So not only was Antiochus not heading back from a war with Israel - but he was murdered to the east - and found by many.

4TH INSTALLMENT



So where in chapter 11 does the part as the endtime picture begin?

DIK: Indeed, that is the question now, if the endtime did not begin in 11:40, then where did it begin? Apart from another question "What is meant by the time of the end in NT context?"


V13
"For the king of the north shall return, and shall set forth a multitude. great than the former, and shall

certainly come after certain years

with a great army...."

See a problem here?

DIK: No. Poole remarks on vs. 13:



Antiochus the Great shall raise great forces, even from Babylon and Media; Philopater being dead, and Ptolemy Epiphanes his son yet a child, under whom Agathocles, a dissolute, proud person, hated of all, governed Egypt as his viceroy.



We have too many multitudes being mentioned.
We already were told that the king of the north set forth a greater than the former multitude spoken of in the other verses.

Yet now - we then get told - with a great army.

What if we are to split these apart?

king of the north
great multitude

after certain years

king of the north
has a great army

DIK: But why should you do that? The text itself is so simple and clear about Antiochus the Great. Why should we make things more complicated than they are?


V14
"And in those times there shall many stand up against the king of the south..."

It doesn't say - other armies stand up against that king -or even that the king of the north does.

"And in those times there shall many stand up against the king of the south..."
How about the "many" are those in his own country?

DIK: Poole says here:



Many of the Grecians, Arabians, Edomites, &c., and some add, many of the profane, apostate Jews, shall join with the rest for plunder and spoil, whereby they fulfil what was foretold of them by Moses and the prophets.




Plunderers of Egypte. So why should we go to the far future?

So we have
after certain years
Saddam
with a great army

then in those times
many stood up against the ruler of Egypt
(assassinated Anwar Sadat)
1981

We don't find in this part any mention as to the south is now against the north or such - instead we are told about the "robbers of thy people".
robbers of Daniel's people
that will exalt themselves

the Palestinians - Nov. 15, 1988

"...the robbers of thy people shall exalt themselves to establish the vision..."

What vision?
Remember this chapter links up with chapter 10 - so it is the vision that made Daniel mourn for three full weeks.


DIK: Why did Daniel mourn? Not because of the troubles he got afterwards in the vision but because he wanted to get insight into his situation and the future. The date is important: it is the time many Jews returned to Israel.
Daniel 10:1-2 links up with 11:14.



We now watch a vision of three full weeks begin to unfold.
this vision would thus end - approx. 2009-2010

Dik: Three weeks are still, well, three weeks. 21 days. Not years because in that case Daniel would have fasted for 21 years!!! Even he wasn't capable of such a feat.:)
Besides, even the weeks of Daniel 9 were not years but "sevens".

5TH INSTALLMENT



Rev. 19:14
"And the armies [which were] in heaven followed him...clothed in fine linen, white and clean."

"armies" - so more than one

DIK: indeed, many armies. See Matthew 26:53 --

Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels?


Rev. 20:4
"And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them..."
they?
Who?

We have to let previous verses reveal that to us.
DIK: Or the next part of the same verse: "and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus". So it might be believers on thrones - which harmonizes with "they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years." Or high angels, see Daniel 7:10. The first possibility is the most probable one.

However, a connection of this passage with Rev. 19 has first to be proven before we can think about that. But even then it would be strange, because one would think that first of all the Rider on the White Horse would sit there, in line with the vision.


Rev. 19:19
"...against his army."

Do you agree this battle is the same one found in the 6th vial?
see Rev. 16:14.

DIK: Yes, except that it is no battle. There is in the vision a clear wish of the enemy to start a battle but in 19:19-21 there is no battle at all.


Rev. 19 - has the marriage poeple get the attire that is later mentioned on the armies from heaven.
DIK: That is right. But that doesn't prove that they are humans. The picture relates to the moment just before the Second Coming, implying that believers have not yet resurrected.
Moreover, the same thing is going on with the 24 elders in Rev. 4 compared to Rev. 3 (gold, white raiments, crowns) but they are certainly not human.
The background of this is the thought of Luke 20:36 --
Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.
So those angels' clothes etc. are predictive of the future eternal bliss of believers. We will be equal to the angels. "Fellow-servants" (Rev. 19:10). See also the community of angels and humans in the heavenly Jerusalem in Rev. 21-22.

Another thing. I think it is wrong to suppose that there will be a marriage feast in Heaven just before the Second Coming. This marriage feast in Heaven is for all eternity, see Rev. 21:2 "prepared as a bride adorned for her husband".


But only a single army heads to take down the beast.

Why?
Because before the saints will get to reign - all of them must overcome the beast.
The one army - the great tribulation martyrs gave their lives - so already defeated the beast.
The rest of the saints - will head to Armageddon - for the taking down of the beast.

DIK: I think that is difficult to prove from Scripture.


Then - in chapter 20 - all of the saints will get seated to reign with Christ.

6TH INSTALLMENT



See how Rev. 19 began as an "after" type of chapter. It therefore begins a new story. Chapter 20 doesn't tell us that - so it is a continuation of chapter 19's detailed picture.

Rev. 19:1
"And after these things I..."


So we close out chapter 18's picture and let chapter 19 place us at the start of a new story.

"after these things"

As in - not continuing those things of chapter 18.

DIK: We've discussed that already a bit. "After these things" only means: after the fall of Babylon the angels and deceased believers in Heaven start to praise the Lord for Babylon's destruction. So it is really a continuation. Whereas at Rev. 19:11 a complete new section begins. If you like to go into details we've got to stick to this subject only because it is a very vast subject. Perhaps a subject for a whole new thread.

7TH INSTALLMENT



Take the V you mentioned - as to 2 Cor.5 as to we desire to be clothed upon.
as in - to mean the church should never be afraid of losing her clothes - garments

DIK: Read this about some believers: "Thou art naked!" (Rev. 3:17). Read also about the remedy, please. But if we do not buy white garments from the Lord Jesus... Rev. 16:15 urges us to watch and keep our garments, lest we walk naked.


then - head to Rev. 16 and see though that a time is coming when people better not lose their clothes - garments.
the reason -
If they die - they will be forever lost.
God is not giving out new clothes at this time of His coming.
He will come as a thief - but not be handing out any eternal life bodies for this coming.
DIK: Precisely. But this book is written to the seven churches of Asia and to all believers, to us too, so here those that have ears have to hear. Rev. 16:15 is for today, not for the future! So we had better watch.


For - the church took all of the eternal life outfits for dead people back at the time of the 7th trumpet.
The time when at the same hour as a great earthquake - the Rev. 11 two witnesses arose from the dead at cloud time.
DIK: All this is about the one and only Second Coming. 6th seal = great multitude = rapture of witnesses = 7th trumpet = all the vials = fall of Babylon = destruction of the beast and his followers = the Last Judgment. Once you see that all becomes much more clear in Revelation. We don't need to speculate at all.


Just as in Daniel 12 it shows us - Daniel is allowed to go and rest - till the 1290th day - but those for the 1335th day -those hanging on till then - trying to stay alive - will only be blessed if they wait - and come to the day.
DIK: Nowhere the Bible urges us to survive physically.


wait - as in don't they die
- don't they rest

for the resurrection of the righteousness (1290th day new outfits given out group) already took place - and only the resurrection of wicked people is yet in the future

as in - keep your garments
(don't lose your skin)
DIK: It is not: don't lose your skin. It is: don't lose your salvation. The Lord urges us to watch and pray and live near Him -- that is the only safe way for us to do. If we do that then we may be certain that He will take care that the Holy Spirit brings us into Heaven, that's for sure. But not everyone who is in church automatically will arrive there.

Puff! Puff! This was a long run. Perhaps it's better to stick to one Bible book at a time. Please make your answers not too many, I'm not able to go on at this pace. Puff! Puff! :)

Kind regards,

Dik

vinsight4u8
Dec 31st 2008, 08:03 PM
Hi mondanufu

I'm going back over our conversations on here to see how come it doesn't seem that we are moving forward on agreeing to very much.

What do you believe is the prophecy part that Daniel read at the start of Daniel 9 that caused him to supplicate?

The reason I ask is because it was due to Daniel supplicating that Gabriel said he came to him.


9;2
"...I understood by books the number of the years...that he would desolate Jerusalem."
Daniel understands that Jeremiah has written as to someone is to desolate Jerusalem for 70 years.

v 3
"And I set my face unto the Lord God to seek..."

What do you think Daniel is seeking to understand?

vinsight4u8
Dec 31st 2008, 11:23 PM
To modanufu

Hi,

You mentioned something as to many antichrists are to come - per John 2:18.

1 John 2:18
"Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come..."

"that antichrist"
"shall come"

One person is to come - one specific evil person

"...even now are there many antichrists;..."
//as in one will come - that particular one is to come - and now though -there are many


Why does it make a difference as to the nationality of the man of sin?
I see it as a big help to understanding other sections of prophecy.


False prophet rendtitions of the end abound. If we can draw specific truth infromation from Scripture then we can easier recognize those lies.


You asked, Why should the Babylonians gain world power?...They never had world power in our modern sense.

Looking at the end of Daniel 11 shows that he will come from the east to attack Israel - he will take the south - and gain areas off to his east.
But- the north and the east shall trouble him.
And he still seems to make more gains.

Daniel 11:44
"But tidings out of the east and out of the north shall trouble him: therefore he shall go forth with great fury to destroy, and utterly to make away many."


So here's the scene>

------tidings of the north - yikes/trouble him-------
Israel<<<beast> goes east <tidings out of east -yikes
----------------takes the south-------------------

The man of sin will come from the east to attack Israel. His land - his nation is located in the east/ Babylon.

vinsight4u8
Dec 31st 2008, 11:28 PM
Happy New Year to you, mondanufu!
or close to it for ya!

Get those tweeters out!

vinsight4u8
Jan 1st 2009, 12:03 AM
This is what you wrote back on page 1. I want to look at it some more. You need to get an idea of what made me go after this particular section of the Bible.

"You move Jeremiah's fulfilled prophecy suddenly into the future."

as to Jeremiah 25:11-12


I saw this prophecy part many years ago - back in 1993 or so. God used it to get my attention that my job is to teach endtime prophecy. I knew that He called me when I was fifteen - just shortly after I was saved - and that this calling would involve a deep studying of the Scripture. Someday I was to teach the verses to others. I didn't know yet - not for many years, just what I was to teach in the Bible, but I did believe that prophecy verses were easily understood as I looked at them.
So for years - and years - night after night - hours and hours and more - I read and reread the Bible. I would make some notes - and link parts of it together. I still didn't know though that I was going to teach prophecy.

I skip now to when I came to read one day again from Jeremiah or so and on as I knew my job involved a key there. When I read again about Babylon - I thought that I'd look up some information about that place and study it. Although I had already looked at empires some, as I believed years before that it was part of my calling.
So - off I go to get some books - and I began to look at them - the kings reigns were not adding up. I got a calculator just to make sure. I thought - didn't Jeremiah say 70 years for those guys?
What happened? I looked at it again. I began to apologize to God, as I told Him there are errors in some books - but then I checked more - not sure how many - and all of them were agreeing with each other. So I again told God I'm sorry - they must have read a tablet wrong or something.
I thought my job was to get this error in the books fixed. I told God that I would do it. I asked Him where to start and He sent me back to the book of Daniel. I was to go and see if Daniel was confused about it. I found out that he was - and then realized the Babylonian king will return to finish this 70-yr prophecy.

I then also saw that Tyre waits for the 70 years of some other king.
Tyre
Isaiah 23:15
"And it shall come to pass in that day, that Tyre...according to the days of one king..."

I have believed since I was a teen that neb is the ac. John saw a king that was, but I had not seen the part as to the seventy years for Babylon not yet over before.

Just so you know something - as I keep at times on boards being referred to as a guy- but I'm a lady. I knew and others too - strangers at stores and such have told me - for many many years now that I was to carry the Gospel - God has a job for me to do. When I began to ask them what it is - I was told -
when the time is right you will know

He wlll reveal it to you.

I have been a so-called street witness for Jesus in the past - even as a teenager. So as a teenager I began to deal some as to when the rapture will be. People would ask me my thoughts on it. I told them that I was still reading the Bible - but it is -6th seal - during the 7th trumpet. The church is going to be here till the great tribulation against Israel is over.

As a teenager, I saw things quite differently as to the end time picture most seemed to preach. I didn't run around telling others they were wrong back then - I thought things sure seem not their way to me, but maybe if I had a Bible degree - then I would learn via the Greek, Hebrew, Aramaic that they are riight, so I told very few people what I was finding out.

Now all I do is ask that people give what I'm saying a look - just a little bit at least of a looksie to see if what I'm saying could possibly be right.

I didn't use any commentaries - or such - just my Bible for many years. Flipping from one part of the Bible to another to try to bring the endtimes picture in clearer to me. That is how my early study years went. Me praying and reading and taking notes. using a hi-lighter a lot too!

Raybob
Jan 1st 2009, 05:04 AM
...I have believed since I was a teen that neb is the ac. John saw a king that was, but I had not seen the part as to the seventy years for Babylon not yet over before....

Can't be. Neb died many years ago.

Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

Raybob

vinsight4u8
Jan 1st 2009, 07:10 AM
Nebuchadnezzar died long ao - but that is just what the beast king had to do.

John was told this...

Rev. 17:8
"The beast that thou sawest was..."


So that means he was before about 95 A.D. or so.

So in John's day what was his status other than was?

was and is not

Rev. 17:8
"The beast...was, and is not..."

We also know that a person can die more than one time - even Lazarus did, others, and those that came out of the grave after Jesus arose and were seen.

John 5 reveals that only the Son was given at that time life in Himself.
The same thing that the two witnesses will get when they rise from the dead at the same hour as a great earthquake )third woe =7th trumpet has begun.


Neb was a beast in the past - and before he was one - Daniel knew that the third thing intended for him to gain through that experience would be the one as to pride.
The wicked king would never admit that he is the lowest of men.

Instead - he told others that they were reputed as nothing.
but he was added unto

I'll go into more details sbout this with my next post. I don't have a doubt that he will be the man of sin. He owes God 666 talents of gold for the destruction of the temple that was where His name had been put forever.


Anyway, the beast is a was and is not individual - a former king - that has been judged - numbered - a son of perdition.
There won't be any checking of his name in the book of life resurrection time (when most of the wicked are raised); for he and the false prophet will have already been cast into the lake of fire.

Both of them - died in the past - and already judged.

Nebuchadnezzar II and Judas

Look at Rev. 13 - there is a first beast and his false prophet will be the second beast - to come up out of the earth.
Look at the ways of Nebuchadnezzar and compare them to the little horn that will understand dark sentences (riddles) - Neb had thoughts upon his bed in his days.

vinsight4u8
Jan 1st 2009, 07:41 AM
all KJV ones
Deuteronomy 28:13
"But it shall come to pass if thou wilt not hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to observe to do all his commandments and his statutes which I command thee this day: that all these curses shall come upon thee..."

v48
"...and he shall put a yoke of iron upon thy neck, until he have destroyed thee."
v50
"A nation of fierce countenance..."

"a yoke of iron" = a curse on Israel
to one day come for her disobedience to God

Jeremiah 28:14
"For thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel: I have put a yoke of iron upon the neck of all these nations..."

"a yoke of iron"
"on all these nations"

"...that they may serve Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon..."


Daniel 9:11
"...that they might not obey thy voice, therefore the curse is poured out upon us, and the oath that is written in the law of Moses..."

v2
"...I Daniel understood by books, the number of the years whereof the word of the LORD came to Jeremiah the prophet, that he would accomplish seventy years..."

Jeremiah 25:11-12
"And this whole land shall be a desolation,...serve the king of Babylon seventy years."
And it shall come to pass, when seventy years are accomplished, [that] I will punish the king of Babylon, and that nation, saith the LORD, for their iniquity and the land of the Chaldeans, and will make it perpetual desolations."
v13
"And I will bring upon that land all my words which I have pronounced against it, [even] all that is written in this book, which Jeremiah hath prophesied against all the nations."


Jeremiah 30:8-9
"For it shall come to pass in that day, saith the LORD of hosts, [that] I will break his yoke from off thy neck...But they shall serve the LORD their God, and David their king, whom I will raise up unto them."

Once the yoke of iron went on - it was to remain till the Babylonian king had been boss over Israel for seventy years - at the end of the 70 years - there must be a Babylonian king in power yet so he can get punished and his land with the land of Chaldea.

Cyrus only punished one Babylonian king - and that was several years before a time of 70 years was over. He then ruled and Darius over a time of about 3-4 years - and when the Jews were finally released to go back and build God's house on His place - there wasn't any Babylonian king around to take down.

So - the end of Jeremiah's 70-yr prophecy - a prophecy as to the Babylonian king must desolate Jerusalem for 70 years - and then go down - has to move way far down into the future.
=
clear till the time of the man of sin


Daniel 9:27
"...he shall make [it]] desolate, even till the consummation..."

"till the consummation"
//till the completetion of what time?

Daniel learned the Babylonian king prophecy of Jeremiah 25:11 won't come to its full completion till the end of the final week of this now 70 weeks of years prophecy.

vinsight4u8
Jan 1st 2009, 08:01 AM
Rev. 13
"...saw a beast ris up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns..."
///So this is a later in time picture of what was seen similar to this in Rev. 12.

In Rev. 12 - the seven heads wore crowns/
Rev. 13 - the heads have earned their sin names - as in died - and now it is time for the ten horns to rule - get their crowns.


Rev. 13:1
"...and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy."
v18
"Here is wisdom, Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man:..."
v17
"...the number of his name."

People come up with name after name for the man of sin, but the Bible begins this chapter with giving us the name of the seven heads.
blasphemy

"upon his heads the name of blasphemy"

Blasphemy is going to end up for one of these guys as the amount of 666.

to recap
a beast up from the sea
(has seven named heads and ten horns that wear crowns)

What happens after that part?

v3
"And I saw one of his heads..."
///not all seven - but now the prophecy leads the reader to deal - to focus in on just one of those seven heads

"...all the world wondered after the beast"

The reader should now realize that the one head has also become a beast.
This one was dead head - is going to be what the world wonders after.
v5
"And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things..."


Daniel 7:8
"....among them...little horn...a mouth speaking great things."
v11
"....voice of the great words which the horn spake..."


Daniel 11:21
"...shall stand up a vile person...obtain the kingdom by flatteries."
///smooth talk - fine promises

v32
"...corrupt by flatteries..."



Rev. 13:7
"And it was given unto him to make war with the saints...and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations."



Daniel 7:25
"And he shall speak [great] words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High..."



Rev. 13:6
"And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven."

vinsight4u8
Jan 1st 2009, 08:11 AM
Rev. 13
a beast up from the sea
plus
a beast that was one of the seven heads

and then what?

v11
"And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth..."
"had the power of the first beast"

The first beast?
He means the first beast that came up out of the earth - which has to be the one head that got its deadly wound healed.


Rev. 17
v10
"And there are seven kings, five are fallen..."
/so five of these particular seven kings are dead
/We know from Rev. 13 - they are all named then - blasphemy for their sin.

v11
"And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the 8th..."
/so the 8th king is the man of sin

"...and is of the seven..."

This man of sin = the beast that was - so to be among the seven at this point in time - he had to among the five fallen kings of blasphemy.

vinsight4u8
Jan 1st 2009, 09:06 AM
Who are the five fallen kings of blasphemy?

I think this is the group.

Nebuchadnezzar - read Psalm 74
Antiochus of Epiphanes
Antiochus Eupator (son of above Antiochus)
Crassus
Titus

One of these will return as the man of sin,
Nebuchadnezzar - numbered 666.

the yoke of iron

vinsight4u8
Jan 1st 2009, 09:16 AM
Happy New Year everybody!

Raybob
Jan 1st 2009, 02:02 PM
Nebuchadnezzar died long ao - but that is just what the beast king had to do.

John was told this...

Rev. 17:8
"The beast that thou sawest was..."


So that means he was before about 95 A.D. or so.

So in John's day what was his status other than was?

was and is not

Rev. 17:8
"The beast...was, and is not..."
That can't make God's word not true when it says, "And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:"

Obviously Neb was possessed by the devil. He surly wasn't possessed by God. You are either for Him or against Him. The devil "was" before Christ bound Him at the cross. Then he "was not". The devil "will be" again in the "little season" the bible speaks of in Rev. 3.

We also know that a person can die more than one time - even Lazarus did, others, and those that came out of the grave after Jesus arose and were seen.Lazarus was the only one in the bible mentioned that Jesus brought back to life but he was still in his old mortal body. Read in context, Jesus did this to prove a point. As for the saints that rose when Jesus did, they were not in their old mortal rotten bodies.

Raybob

vinsight4u8
Jan 1st 2009, 02:14 PM
What makes you think the beast king coming back won't be in his ready for the lake of fire body?


Others were raised back to life -even in the Old Testament.

vinsight4u8
Jan 1st 2009, 02:16 PM
I meant to ask you this earlier - So do you think all of the church peole will eventually die too- as it is appointed unto men to die?

vinsight4u8
Jan 1st 2009, 02:44 PM
Hi modanufu

I'm on page 2 now as to going over the posts between us on here and want to comment as to Rev. 17 and the city of Tyre.

You are right that Jerusalem was a harlot city too.
Thus, she wore her harlot name on her forehead - as in she was punished some by God in the past - yet still sat refusing to be ashamed.

Tyre has this same problem - the city of Rev. 17 shows the mother of harlots city with her name on her forehead.


Jeremiah 3:3
"...thou hadst a whore's forehead, thou refusedst to be ashamed."
v5
"Will he reserve [his anger] for ever?"

As in - Jerusalem deserves more punishment time - and how long will God hold that back?

Tyre is the same way- God is holding back the rest of her time of punishment -till the 70 years of one king come to pass.

Isaiah 23:15
"And it shall come to pass in that day, that Tyre shall be forgotten seventy years, according to the days of one king, after the end of seventy years shall Tyre sing as an harlot."



33:5
"The LORD is exalted...The earth mourneth, [and] languisheth: Lebanon is ashamed and hewn down..."



Jeremiah 50:12
"Your mother shall be sore confounded..ashamed...desolate"

This is referring to the mother of Babylon on the Euphrates River. The mother location is to fall first - this will be a signal to regular Babylon that her time will soon be up too.


Rev. 19:2
"...for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth...avenged the blood of his servants at her hand."

What happens just before this part?
v1
"....Salvation..."

Jesus appears - for it is time for salvation!

The Rev. 12 trib martyrs that Satan was cast down from heaven - where he had been accusing them before God - have been resurrected (including the two witnesses) - along with all of the rest of the just.

The resurrection and the rapture has taken place and time to take down the wicked city that was the mother of harlots - and slew the martyrs.


Zechariah 9:3
"And Tyrus did build herself a stronghold...he will smite her power in the sea: and she shall be devoured with fire."


Rev. 17:16
"And the ten horns...shall hate the whore, and make her desolate,...and burn her with fire."

vinsight4u8
Jan 1st 2009, 03:13 PM
To modanufu

Okay, I see where you now agree that Isaiah 13 is for the endtimes too.

13:1
"The burden of Babylon..."

So a prophecy to befall the land of Babylon.

But when is it to happen?

v6
"Howl ye; for the day of the LORD..."

//Babylon will howl - cry out in the day of the LORD.

v9
"...to lay the land desolate, and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it."
//see Rev. 11:18 - as to the 7th trumpet must begin before God can become the One destroying.

v11
"And I will punish the world..."

v13
"Therefore I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her place..."
(check the 6th seal events of Rev. 6 everybody)
v19
"And Babylon, the glory of kingdoms, the beauty of the Chaldees' excellency shall be as when God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah."
v20
"It shall never be inhabited..."
/the US soldiers camped there
even had a helicopter pad


Jeremiah 51:26
"And they shall not take of thee a stone for a corner, nor a stone for foundations; but thou shalt be desolate for ever, saith the LORD."

So when is this for?
Saddam has taken many bricks in the past and rebuilt even Nebuchadnezzar's palace.

v10
"The LORD hath brought forth our righteousness..."


Daniel 9:24
"Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city...to bring in everlasting righteousness..."

The righteousness on the people of Israel won't come till the end of the 70 weeks of years.



Isaiah 62:1
"For Zion's sake will I not hold my peace, and for Jerusalem's sake I will not rest, until the righteousness thereof go forth..."
"salvation"

v2
"And the Gentiles shall see thy righteousness..."

v4
"Thou shalt no more be termed Forsaken; neither shall thy land any more be termed Desolate..."

Raybob
Jan 1st 2009, 05:57 PM
I meant to ask you this earlier - So do you think all of the church peole will eventually die too- as it is appointed unto men to die?
Not the ones that are alive at His return. :pp

vinsight4u8
Jan 2nd 2009, 12:20 PM
What readers of Revelation need to understand is that God will have two major places to go after with His wrath.

1. mystery, Babylon
2. regular Babylon (Iraq's land)

After each one is taken down - there will a time of rejoicing.

mystery, Babylon - falls at the time of the 7th trumpet return of Jesus Christ

The church is taken to heaven.
God has mercy on the land of Israel.

The vials begin<
At the time of the vial that brings Armageddon - Jesus will return - and now will be the vial of Armageddon - and soon the time of great hail on Babylon.

"great Babylon came in rembrance before God"

fron Rev. 16:19


Psalm 79:12
"And render unto our neighbors sevenfold into their bosom their reproach, wherewith they have reproached thee, O Lord."


Isaiah 30:26
"Moreover the light of the moon shall be as the light of the sun, and the light of the sun shall be sevenfold, as the light of seven days, in the day that the LORD bindeth up the breach of his people, and healeth the stroke of their wound."


Rev. 16:8
"And the fourth angel poured out his vial upon the sun, and power was given unto him to scorch men with fire."
(4th vial)
God's time of wrath vials

modanufu
Jan 2nd 2009, 12:49 PM
Hi Vinsight,

I also wish you a New Year full of God's blessings!

Let's see...



What do you believe is the prophecy part that Daniel read at the start of Daniel 9 that caused him to supplicate?
The reason I ask is because it was due to Daniel supplicating that Gabriel said he came to him.
9;2
"...I understood by books the number of the years...that he would desolate Jerusalem."
Daniel understands that Jeremiah has written as to someone is to desolate Jerusalem for 70 years.
v 3
"And I set my face unto the Lord God to seek..."
What do you think Daniel is seeking to understand?

DIK: I think Daniel was reading Jeremiah 29. When did he do that?

Jer. 29:1-2 In the first year of Darius the son of Ahasuerus, of the seed of the Medes, which was made king over the realm of the Chaldeans; In the first year of his reign I Daniel understood by books the number of the years, whereof the word of the LORD came to Jeremiah the prophet, that he would accomplish seventy years in the desolations of Jerusalem.

Daniel started to pray at the end of the 70 years (the date is 538 BC and the 70 years started in about 606), in accordance with this promise in Jeremiah:

Jer. 29:12-13 Then shall ye call upon me, and ye shall go and pray unto me, and I will hearken unto you. And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart.

Then, and not earlier, the Jews were invited to pray to the Lord to bring them back to their own country because that had been promised in this chapter. That's why Daniel started to pray.

He did not pray to get insight, on the contrary, he "prayed unto the LORD my God, and made my confession", because it was because of their sins that the Jews were in exile. Daniel prays for forgiveness and for the fulfilling of God's promise (vs 19). Apparently Daniel believed the 70 years had expired!

The angel, however, gave him insight in the future, because the prophecies that had been spoken by the prophets in the past promised the whole salvation as one glorious whole: the return, the coming of the Son of David, the New Covenant, the resurrection of the dead, a new heaven and a new earth. Daniel was, of course, not clear as to what he could expect, and the angel tells him that it will take quite a long time before everything will be fulfilled and that God will care for them in the meantime.


You mentioned something as to many antichrists are to come - per John 2:18.

1 John 2:18
"Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come..."

"that antichrist"
"shall come"

One person is to come - one specific evil person

"...even now are there many antichrists;..."
//as in one will come - that particular one is to come - and now though -there are many

I don't think that is the right meaning. "It is the last time [literally: the last hour]". John points to the fact that he is living in the last hour before the Second Coming. The last hour, then, is the whole Gospel period between the 1st and 2nd coming of our Lord. Compare e.g. Hebr. 1:2 "these last days".

He continues: "and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time." In my opinion he means: the prophecy is about a coming antichrist (coming in Daniel's time, not in John's time) but that doesn't imply at all that we'll have to believe in only one antichrist. That is apocalyptic language which has to be interpreted in the situation we live in. In this last hour he saw and we see in the churches very many antichrists. That is "the antichrist".

This interpretation concurs with what John elsewhere in his letters says about this antichrist:

1 John 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.

Here John is writing again about the antichrists that left the orthodox churches after proclaiming their heretical teachings. Antichrist means false prophets (compare Matthew 24:4).

1 John 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

Here John says that the spirit in those false prophets is the spirit of antichrist. That is what makes them "antichrists". There is no difference between a spirit of antichrist and antichrist himself. The spirit of antichrist is the spirit antichrist has when prophesying and teaching. In modern language all this is very confusing but people of those times were able to understand what John wrote. I'll show that to you below.

2 John :7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

KJV does not have it right; the Greek says: this is the deceiver and the antichrist. John says these false prophets and false teachers are "the antichrist".

This has been very well understood by the early church fathers that spoke the same Greek as John did (2nd century AD). Some quotations:

THE EPISTLE OF IGNATIUS TO HERO. CHAP. II. -- CAUTIONS AGAINST FALSE TEACHERS.
Every one that teaches anything beyond what is commanded, though he be [deemed] worthy of credit, though he be in the habit of fasting, though he live in continence, though he work miracles, though he have the gift of prophecy, let him be in thy sight as a wolf in sheep's clothing,(12) labouring for the destruction of the sheep. If any one denies the cross, and is ashamed of the passion, let him be to thee as the adversary himself. "Though he gives all his goods to feed the poor, though he remove mountains, though he give his body to be burned,"(13) let him be regarded by thee as abominable. If any one makes light of the law or the prophets, which Christ fulfilled at His coming, let him be to thee as antichrist.

THE EPISTLE OF IGNATIUS TO THE ANTIOCHIANS. CHAP. V. -- DENUNCIATION OF FALSE TEACHERS.
Whosoever, therefore, declares that there is but one God, only so as to take away the divinity of Christ, is a devil, and an enemy of all righteousness. He also that confesseth Christ, yet not as the Son of the Maker of the world, but of some other unknown being, different from Him whom the law and the prophets have proclaimed, this man is an instrument of the devil. And he that rejects the incarnation, and is ashamed of the cross for which I am in bonds, this man is antichrist.(5) Moreover, he who affirms Christ to be a mere man is accursed, according to the [declaration of the] prophet,(6) since he puts not his trust in God, but in man. Wherefore also he is unfruitful, like the wild myrtle-tree.

POLYCARP TO THE PHILIPPIANS. CHAP. VII.--AVOID THE DOCETAE, AND PERSEVERE IN FASTING AND PRAYER.
"For whosoever does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh, is antichrist;" and whosoever does not confess the testimony of the cross, is of the devil; and whosoever perverts the oracles of the Lord to his own lusts, and says that there is neither a resurrection nor a judgment, he is the first-born of Satan.(20) Wherefore, forsaking the vanity of many, and their false doctrines, let us return to the word which has been handed down to us from the beginning; "watching unto prayer," and persevering in fasting; beseeching in our supplications the all-seeing God "not to lead us into temptation," as the Lord has said: "The spirit truly is willing, but the flesh is weak."

See? They interpreted John's letters in such a way that they had the antichrist in their midst, in the form of false teachers.


Why does it make a difference as to the nationality of the man of sin?
I see it as a big help to understanding other sections of prophecy.

Nationality does not make any difference, I think. But if you believe that a future antichrist will build the temple for the Jews then to have him any success with the Jews he will have to be a Jew himself, don't you think?


False prophet renditions of the end abound. If we can draw specific truth infromation from Scripture then we can easier recognize those lies.

It is easy enough to recognize a false prophet without that. He does not believe the Gospel, not really. He may pretend to do it. The NT is full of warnings against these "wolves in sheep's clothes". Acts 20:24 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.


You asked, Why should the Babylonians gain world power?...They never had world power in our modern sense.

That's because the Bible is not in "modern" language. Babylon master of the world only means that he reigned over a vast area.


Looking at the end of Daniel 11 shows that he will come from the east to attack Israel - he will take the south - and gain areas off to his east.
But- the north and the east shall trouble him.
And he still seems to make more gains.

Daniel 11:44
"But tidings out of the east and out of the north shall trouble him: therefore he shall go forth with great fury to destroy, and utterly to make away many."

This is a very cryptic passage. I think it is unwise to build from this a picture of the time of the end.

But, apart from this, in vs. 42-43 the king of the north invades Egypt and from there he hears "tidings out of the east and out of the north". The text does not say that he is out to destroy Israel (he has conquered that already in vs. 41 on his way to Egypt), only that "he shall go forth with great fury to destroy, and utterly to make away many". It's only that "he shall come to his portion, and there is none to deliver him" and that this will happen in the land of Israel. It's all very mysterious but I think one should base oneself on clear passages not on these misty predictions.



So here's the scene>

------tidings of the north - yikes/trouble him-------
Israel<<<beast> goes east <tidings out of east -yikes
----------------takes the south-------------------

The man of sin will come from the east to attack Israel. His land - his nation is located in the east/ Babylon.

In vs. 40-41 the king of the north is on his way to fight Egypt, the king of the south, and as he had to pass through Israel he also conquers that country, but only on his way to Egypt. Would Iraq ever make war with Egypt?

Thanks for sharing your testimony, Vinsight. I admire you that you have dared to be a street witness for Jesus! It's a difficult job and usually not many people listen.
Well, I myself have started as a new born Christian in a home church where dispensationalism was taught. I was quite convinced at the time. And then, after a few years, I found out that I was wrong. It took me years and years to get a clearer idea about "prophecy" and other subjects. Studying the Scriptures is always useful, however, because then you are able to explain the Good News to others and know your way in the Word of God. That's good. The most important thing is the Gospel and salvation and if we have that right then the rest is, not unimportant but secondary.

However, it is easy to misunderstand the Scriptures on some points and especially the subject of prophecy is a difficult one to study. So it is always good to be open to other views and practice self-criticism. I learned that through the years. I learned a.o. that the Scriptures were written in the everyday language of the time because the prophecies were first of all spoken for warning and encouragement for contemporaries. In the second instance also for us but then we'll have to see through their glasses and interpret their way of expressing themselves and that is not modern language at all. If you look for instance at Revelation then you'll see (or don't see!) that John interprets OT numbers not at all in a literal way.

1260 days are taken from Dan. 12:11 1290 days (John ignores the 1335 days).
42 months are taken from the 42 stops of the Israelites on their way to the promised land (Num. 33).
This he could only combine if he made round years of 360 days, years that do not exist and were never used in the OT.

It's all about the message, not about chronological calculations.

That's quite a different approach than you are used to, I know that. But my studies brought me to see things in this way. We can not always agree, don't we?

Hey, I see that you now are "crossing daggers" with Raybob! Let's see what comes out of that... :)

Kind regards,
Dik

iconoclast2012
Feb 6th 2009, 08:37 PM
....hey vin, I jus' surfed in & I been readin' ur thread here....mighty interesting this Babylon thing u got goin' on overhere....I don't know If this factors in any way but I'll
just make a casual observation here & suggest to u that it seems to me that the last king of babylon took a mighty good whuppin'...from the new king of babylon...!!!! selah...


just