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bthafree
Dec 8th 2008, 02:36 AM
the tribualtion period takes place, then one would have to basically bow down to the devil(anti-christ) and, accept the mark or, if we don't then, we will be killed right? So what are we to do while we are on our last bread crumb or drink of water, etc. Thoughts anyone?

Aviva
Dec 8th 2008, 02:41 AM
We are taken away from that trial to come. Many are killed, some will survive to the end.

AngelAuthor
Dec 8th 2008, 03:06 AM
If there is no pre-trib rapture Christians will have no choice but to go underground to survive the catastrophies that will strike the world. Refuse to bow to the beast or take his mark and you will be unable to buy or sell (hopefully you live somewhere out of the way where you can farm), and coming out about it will mean your death.

but if that is what God has called us to, then so be it. We are to count it as glory to suffer martyrdom for Him.

bthafree
Dec 8th 2008, 03:16 AM
so we either adapt and grind it out and maybe die while doing so, or tell those who are working for the devil that your Lord and Savior is Christ, and then die immediately. That's ok because, we will be rewarded once our earthly body is killed. I was just curious about this, thanks for your replies.

JesusMySavior
Dec 8th 2008, 03:21 AM
I think I would have a Philippians 1:21-25 experience as Paul did...

I would want to tell others about Christ because of the impending judgment and the times we are going through, but to depart and be with Christ is far better. I wouldn't be able to decide. :hmm:

HisLeast
Dec 8th 2008, 03:46 AM
the tribualtion period takes place, then one would have to basically bow down to the devil(anti-christ) and, accept the mark or, if we don't then, we will be killed right? So what are we to do while we are on our last bread crumb or drink of water, etc. Thoughts anyone?

Ask the Christians in Ossira, China, and North Korea right now. In each of these places its death or torture sentence to be a Christian.

Amos_with_goats
Dec 8th 2008, 04:01 AM
..... what are we to do while we are on our last bread crumb or drink of water, etc. Thoughts anyone?

We are to give thanks.

cavscout
Dec 8th 2008, 04:28 AM
Just a response to the original question.

A LOT of people will be surprised.

RoadWarrior
Dec 8th 2008, 04:41 AM
the tribualtion period takes place, then one would have to basically bow down to the devil(anti-christ) and, accept the mark or, if we don't then, we will be killed right? So what are we to do while we are on our last bread crumb or drink of water, etc. Thoughts anyone?

We are to walk as closely as possible to the Lord, and trust in Him. Christians in this world do not have to wait until the great tribulation comes to suffer persecution. Many are dying every day for their faith in Christ. Anti-christs are already in the world, and to be a Christian in a Muslim country is to suffer tribulation, already.

And we are to pray that God will count us worthy to escape.

JesusMySavior
Dec 8th 2008, 04:49 AM
We are to give thanks.


Amen. Give thanks in all things!

Literalist-Luke
Dec 8th 2008, 04:58 AM
A LOT of people will be surprised.That's assuming they even recognize the Antichrist for who he is. I would bet there will be at least a few people who steadfastly refuse to call him who he is because the Rapture hasn't happened yet and they'll sincerely believe he can't be the guy for that reason.

To return to the original question, I would guess (and that's all this is, just a guess) that a number of believers around the world will band together into self-sufficient collectives. The trick will be finding each other and also having a safe location. Now, before you say that "nowhere will be safe", I would point out that the world's infrastructure and resources will be strained well beyond the breaking point during that time, so if somebody happens to be blessed with a sufficiently remote location, it is conceivable they could go unnoticed, at least for a while. For those who live in a big city (like me), moving to a small town or rural area might not be a bad idea in advance of when it all starts "going down".

DurbanDude
Dec 8th 2008, 07:38 AM
the tribualtion period takes place, then one would have to basically bow down to the devil(anti-christ) and, accept the mark or, if we don't then, we will be killed right? So what are we to do while we are on our last bread crumb or drink of water, etc. Thoughts anyone?

God has deliberately kept that period short, only 3.5 years long, so that we don't lose hope.

Come to South Africa, we have a lot of cheap farmland!

David Taylor
Dec 8th 2008, 01:13 PM
the tribualtion period takes place, then one would have to basically bow down to the devil(anti-christ) and, accept the mark or, if we don't then, we will be killed right? So what are we to do while we are on our last bread crumb or drink of water, etc. Thoughts anyone?

Not all Christians will die before the Lords Advent. Some will be alive and remain unto His advent.

John 16:33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

I Peter 4:12 Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you: But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy. If ye be reproached for the name of Christ, happy are ye; for the spirit of glory and of God resteth upon you: on their part he is evil spoken of, but on your part he is glorified. But let none of you suffer as a murderer, or as a thief, or as an evildoer, or as a busybody in other men's matters. Yet if any man suffer as a Christian, let him not be ashamed; but let him glorify God on this behalf.

DeafPosttrib
Dec 9th 2008, 11:24 AM
The reason of this title with question, because many Christians in America believe there will be rapture, because this country is a freedom and allow to worship God, to have religion. In America not yet face persecution, while other countries over world are facing persecutions daily today. That why, Christians in America never have real experience persecution, they have no idea what 'tribulation' & 'persecution' looks like. While they still believe in rapture to escape from coming tribulation.

Late Corrie ten Boom, herself a Gentile, who had experinced in concentration camp along with Jewish females during World War II. She did tasted of persecutions and sufferings. She warned on America, that Christians have to be prepare for coming persecutions, because they have no idea how taste it would be come upon them. She was right.

I remember which book or on internet that, a Christian in China did faced persecutions, before that, this Christian and other Christians in China were taught pretribulation got hit persecutions and their faith were shaken and scattered. That Christian did learn the big lesson. And he warned: "Don't ever looking for 'Rapture'!"

And he was right. He doesn't mean that we should not look for rapture, he means that we must always be aware and being prepare no matter what happen to us. Always be alert with our spiritual guard at all times, no matter which rapture or persecution comes first. We always be ready all the times daily in our life.

Also, Christ tells us, we should be cheer and joyful, being count while facing trials, tests, troubles, problems, tribulations, and persecutions, always look up at Jesus with faith. We need no fear for tribulations and persecutions, because Christ already overcome them at Calvary.

Just look up at Jesus with joy all the times no matter what happen to us.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

Veretax
Dec 9th 2008, 02:53 PM
The reason of this title with question, because many Christians in America believe there will be rapture, because this country is a freedom and allow to worship God, to have religion. In America not yet face persecution, while other countries over world are facing persecutions daily today. That why, Christians in America never have real experience persecution, they have no idea what 'tribulation' & 'persecution' looks like. While they still believe in rapture to escape from coming tribulation.

Gotta disagree here, while I may not have experienced that which some Christians have in China, I've certainly had my share of persecution. In fact one semester I lived as with the terror that some unsaved were going to kill me. My faith was in God though, and their empty words were shown for what they were. I've been ostracized ridiculed, had doors slammed in my faces, things done to me for only one reason, because of my faith. Simply put. It may not be as bad as others suffer, but to say I or others have not suffered is just not true, and the attitude of the nation is quickly turning away from the things of God.


Anyhow.... I agree with the rest of what you said though.

Roelof
Dec 10th 2008, 03:59 PM
My view point is that the Tribulation will start and before things get really tough, the True Church of Christ will be raptured (somewhere between the start and the middle of the Trib)

God will never let His children down, just TRUST in Him !!

markdrums
Dec 10th 2008, 09:08 PM
My view point is that the Tribulation will start and before things get really tough, the True Church of Christ will be raptured (somewhere between the start and the middle of the Trib)

God will never let His children down, just TRUST in Him !!

I don't subscribe to the pre-trib / millennial reign viewpoint.... But...
Just an addition in context of the thread.

For those who DO believe there's a church only / pre-trib Rapture; If it turns out that Revelation IS speaking about "US" & the rapture is either mid-trip or post trib, Rev 2:8 -11 might be of some assurance.
;)

Rev 2:8 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Rev&c=2&v=10&t=KJV#comm/8) And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive;
Rev 2:9 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Rev&c=2&v=10&t=KJV#comm/9) I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and [I know] the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but [are] the synagogue of Satan.
Rev 2:10 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Rev&c=2&v=10&t=KJV#comm/10) Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast [some] of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.
Rev 2:11 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Rev&c=2&v=10&t=KJV#comm/11) He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

iWrecknSow
Dec 17th 2008, 12:44 AM
My view point is that the Tribulation will start and before things get really tough, the True Church of Christ will be raptured (somewhere between the start and the middle of the Trib)
God will never let His children down, just TRUST in Him !!

Your right Roelof. God will not let His children down.


JOHN 17 [14] I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. [15] I PRAY NOT THAT THOU SHOULDEST TAKE THEM OUT OF THE WORLD, BUT THAT THOU SHOULDEST KEEP THEM FROM THE EVIL. [16] They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

ISAIAH 26 [19] THY DEAD MEN SHALL LIVE, TOGETHER WITH MY DEAD BODY SHALL THEY ARISE. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead. [20] COME, MY PEOPLE, ENTER THOU INTO THY CHAMBERS, AND SHUT THY DOORS ABOUT THEE: HIDE THYSELF AS IT WERE FOR A LITTLE MOMENT, UNTIL THE INDIGNATION BE OVERPAST. [21] For, behold, the Lord cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.

No need for a rapture. Nothing to worry about. Just gotta play a little hide and seek till Gods wrath (His indignation) has passed. You might also notice the dead in Christ rising first (as mentioned in 1 Cor.15).

ZEPH. 2 [1] Gather yourselves together, yea, gather together, O nation not desired; [2] Before the decree bring forth, before the day pass as the chaff, before the fierce anger of the Lord come upon you, before the day of the Lord's anger come upon you. [3] SEEK YE THE LORD, all ye meek of the earth, which have wrought his judgment; seek righteousness, seek meekness: IT MAY BE YE SHALL BE HID IN THE DAY OF THE LORD'S ANGER.

See? We will be here on earth during the Day of the Lord. But were gonna have a good hiding place.

PROVERBS 3 [22] So shall they be life unto thy soul, and grace to thy neck. [23] Then shalt thou walk in thy way safely, and thy foot shall not stumble. [24] When thou liest down, thou shalt not be afraid: yea, thou shalt lie down, and thy sleep shall be sweet. [25] BE NOT AFRAID of sudden fear, neither OF THE DESOLATION OF THE WICKED, when it cometh. [26] For THE LORD SHALL BE THY CONFIDENCE, AND SHALL KEEP THY FOOT FROM BEING TAKEN.

Show no fear when Jesus returns to get rid of the bad guys.

PSALM 9 [5] Thou hast rebuked the heathen, THOU HAST DESTROYED THE WICKED, thou hast put out their name for ever and ever. [6] O thou enemy, destructions are come to a perpetual end: and thou hast destroyed cities; their memorial is perished with them. [7] But the Lord shall endure for ever: he hath prepared his throne for judgment. [8] And he shall judge the world in righteousness, he shall minister judgment to the people in uprightness. [9] THE LORD ALSO WILL BE A REFUGE FOR THE OPPRESSED, A REFUGE IN TIMES OF TROUBLE. [10] And they that know thy name will put their trust in thee: for thou, Lord, hast not forsaken them that seek thee.

PSALM 12 [3] The Lord shall cut off all flattering lips, and the tongue that speaketh proud things: [4] Who have said, With our tongue will we prevail; our lips are our own: who is lord over us? [5] For the oppression of the poor, for the sighing of the needy, NOW WILL I ARISE, saith the Lord; I WILL SET HIM IN SAFETY from him that puffeth at him.

I kinda knew all along that Jesus could protect His people in times of trouble even before I found these scriptures. We are not apointed to wrath and now we know why. A little game of hide and seek the Lord.

PROVERBS 1 [26] I also will laugh at your calamity; I will mock when your fear cometh; [27] When your fear cometh as desolation, and your destruction cometh as a whirlwind; when distress and anguish cometh upon you. [28] THEN SHALL THEY CALL UPON ME, BUT I WILL NOT ANSWER; THEY SHALL SEEK ME EARLY, BUT THEY SHALL NOT FIND ME: [29] For that they hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the Lord: [30] They would none of my counsel: they despised all my reproof. [31] Therefore shall they eat of the fruit of their own way, and be filled with their own devices. [32] For the turning away of the simple shall slay them, and the prosperity of fools shall destroy them. [33] BUT WHOSO HEARKENETH UNTO ME SHALL DWELL SAFELY, AND SHALL BE QUIET FROM FEAR OF EVIL.

They did not choose the “fear of the Lord”. Hmm…..Anyone know what that means?

PSALM 37 [7] Rest in the Lord, and WAIT PATIENTLY FOR HIM: fret not thyself because of him who prospereth in his way, because of the man who bringeth wicked devices to pass. [8] Cease from anger, and forsake wrath: fret not thyself in any wise to do evil. [9] FOR EVILDOERS SHALL BE CUT OFF: BUT THOSE THAT WAIT UPON THE LORD, THEY SHALL INHERIT THE EARTH. [10] For yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be: yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it shall not be. [11] But the meek shall inherit the earth; and shall delight themselves in the abundance of peace.

Yup. Be patient. The bad guys shall be cut off. No need to put your hope in a rapture just because your afraid. Just wait upon the Lord, and we shall inherit the earth.

Faithful 1
Dec 18th 2008, 05:29 AM
If there is no rapture before the tribualtion period takes place, then one would have to basically bow down to the devil(anti-christ) and, accept the mark or, if we don't then, we will be killed right? So what are we to do while we are on our last bread crumb or drink of water, etc. Thoughts anyone?


Well, what did the 3 Hebrew children do under Neb's reign when he pulled the same stunt?

We are to follow THEIR example...and say, " Our God whom we serve is able to deliver us, ......but even if not, be it known unto thee, O king, that we will not serve thy gods, nor worship the golden image which thou hast set up". Dan 3:17-18

BTW, that story under Nebuchadnezzar"s reign was a 'type' of the last days anti-Christ reign....and the 3 Hebrew children are a 'type' of the faithful Church under the last days anti-Christ reign.

Faithful 1;)

Strength from Him
Dec 18th 2008, 05:43 AM
Regardless of pre, mid or post trib. I believe God will provide for His people. An example, in Exodus, manna was provided daily and just what they needed for that day.

Faithful 1
Dec 18th 2008, 03:04 PM
Regardless of pre, mid or post trib. I believe God will provide for His people. An example, in Exodus, manna was provided daily and just what they needed for that day.

Yes, Exodus is another great 'type' of the coming 'exodus' from planet earth and our deliverance from this evil world.
Notice; the plagues all fell WHILE THE JEWS WERE STILL IN THE LAND of BONDAGE; and yet God supernaturally protected them.
Thus shall it be in the last days the Church shall be supernaturally protected from the JUDGEMENTS of God.....HOWEVER, this does not mean she will not go THROUGH the tribulation period ...(in fact, she will)....

Faithful 1

JesusMySavior
Dec 19th 2008, 04:04 AM
May the grace of God preserve the saints of our Lord Jesus Christ to persevere in the trials and tortures of the wicked. God's children will be redeemed and every man will receive proper condemnation and reward at the judgment seat of God! Amen! and Amen!

possumliving
Dec 19th 2008, 09:26 AM
Your right Roelof. God will not let His children down.


JOHN 17 [14] I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. [15] I PRAY NOT THAT THOU SHOULDEST TAKE THEM OUT OF THE WORLD, BUT THAT THOU SHOULDEST KEEP THEM FROM THE EVIL. [16] They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

ISAIAH 26 [19] THY DEAD MEN SHALL LIVE, TOGETHER WITH MY DEAD BODY SHALL THEY ARISE. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead. [20] COME, MY PEOPLE, ENTER THOU INTO THY CHAMBERS, AND SHUT THY DOORS ABOUT THEE: HIDE THYSELF AS IT WERE FOR A LITTLE MOMENT, UNTIL THE INDIGNATION BE OVERPAST. [21] For, behold, the Lord cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.

No need for a rapture. Nothing to worry about. Just gotta play a little hide and seek till Gods wrath (His indignation) has passed. You might also notice the dead in Christ rising first (as mentioned in 1 Cor.15).

ZEPH. 2 [1] Gather yourselves together, yea, gather together, O nation not desired; [2] Before the decree bring forth, before the day pass as the chaff, before the fierce anger of the Lord come upon you, before the day of the Lord's anger come upon you. [3] SEEK YE THE LORD, all ye meek of the earth, which have wrought his judgment; seek righteousness, seek meekness: IT MAY BE YE SHALL BE HID IN THE DAY OF THE LORD'S ANGER.

See? We will be here on earth during the Day of the Lord. But were gonna have a good hiding place.

PROVERBS 3 [22] So shall they be life unto thy soul, and grace to thy neck. [23] Then shalt thou walk in thy way safely, and thy foot shall not stumble. [24] When thou liest down, thou shalt not be afraid: yea, thou shalt lie down, and thy sleep shall be sweet. [25] BE NOT AFRAID of sudden fear, neither OF THE DESOLATION OF THE WICKED, when it cometh. [26] For THE LORD SHALL BE THY CONFIDENCE, AND SHALL KEEP THY FOOT FROM BEING TAKEN.

Show no fear when Jesus returns to get rid of the bad guys.

PSALM 9 [5] Thou hast rebuked the heathen, THOU HAST DESTROYED THE WICKED, thou hast put out their name for ever and ever. [6] O thou enemy, destructions are come to a perpetual end: and thou hast destroyed cities; their memorial is perished with them. [7] But the Lord shall endure for ever: he hath prepared his throne for judgment. [8] And he shall judge the world in righteousness, he shall minister judgment to the people in uprightness. [9] THE LORD ALSO WILL BE A REFUGE FOR THE OPPRESSED, A REFUGE IN TIMES OF TROUBLE. [10] And they that know thy name will put their trust in thee: for thou, Lord, hast not forsaken them that seek thee.

PSALM 12 [3] The Lord shall cut off all flattering lips, and the tongue that speaketh proud things: [4] Who have said, With our tongue will we prevail; our lips are our own: who is lord over us? [5] For the oppression of the poor, for the sighing of the needy, NOW WILL I ARISE, saith the Lord; I WILL SET HIM IN SAFETY from him that puffeth at him.

I kinda knew all along that Jesus could protect His people in times of trouble even before I found these scriptures. We are not apointed to wrath and now we know why. A little game of hide and seek the Lord.

PROVERBS 1 [26] I also will laugh at your calamity; I will mock when your fear cometh; [27] When your fear cometh as desolation, and your destruction cometh as a whirlwind; when distress and anguish cometh upon you. [28] THEN SHALL THEY CALL UPON ME, BUT I WILL NOT ANSWER; THEY SHALL SEEK ME EARLY, BUT THEY SHALL NOT FIND ME: [29] For that they hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the Lord: [30] They would none of my counsel: they despised all my reproof. [31] Therefore shall they eat of the fruit of their own way, and be filled with their own devices. [32] For the turning away of the simple shall slay them, and the prosperity of fools shall destroy them. [33] BUT WHOSO HEARKENETH UNTO ME SHALL DWELL SAFELY, AND SHALL BE QUIET FROM FEAR OF EVIL.

They did not choose the “fear of the Lord”. Hmm…..Anyone know what that means?

PSALM 37 [7] Rest in the Lord, and WAIT PATIENTLY FOR HIM: fret not thyself because of him who prospereth in his way, because of the man who bringeth wicked devices to pass. [8] Cease from anger, and forsake wrath: fret not thyself in any wise to do evil. [9] FOR EVILDOERS SHALL BE CUT OFF: BUT THOSE THAT WAIT UPON THE LORD, THEY SHALL INHERIT THE EARTH. [10] For yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be: yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it shall not be. [11] But the meek shall inherit the earth; and shall delight themselves in the abundance of peace.

Yup. Be patient. The bad guys shall be cut off. No need to put your hope in a rapture just because your afraid. Just wait upon the Lord, and we shall inherit the earth.
Thanks for that! God had given me a dream and then gave me the passage from Isaiah 26. but I didn't know about the other one!

Also, my husband died in Sept. and God has given me another (future) husband that is willing to 'hide' with me, LOL! God is taking care of me just like He said He said He would.

Steph

Raybob
Dec 19th 2008, 07:22 PM
the tribualtion period takes place, then one would have to basically bow down to the devil(anti-christ) and, accept the mark or, if we don't then, we will be killed right? So what are we to do while we are on our last bread crumb or drink of water, etc. Thoughts anyone?

Mat 6:31-32 Therefore take no thought, saying, What shall we eat? or, What shall we drink? or, Wherewithal shall we be clothed? (32) (For after all these things do the Gentiles seek) for your heavenly Father knoweth that ye have need of all these things.

The Lord will provide. Besides, sometimes fasting is a good thing. ;)

Mat 6:17-18 But thou, when thou fastest, anoint thine head, and wash thy face; (18) That thou appear not unto men to fast, but unto thy Father which is in secret: and thy Father, which seeth in secret, shall reward thee openly.

Raybob

Emanate
Dec 19th 2008, 07:39 PM
God carried Noah through the storm, not apart from it.

Faithful 1
Dec 20th 2008, 04:28 AM
God carried Noah through the storm, not apart from it.

Good point , Emanate.:saint:

"Just as in the days of Noah so also shall be the coming of the son of man..." - Jesus

iWrecknSow
Dec 25th 2008, 06:20 PM
Thanks for that! God had given me a dream and then gave me the passage from Isaiah 26. but I didn't know about the other one!

Also, my husband died in Sept. and God has given me another (future) husband that is willing to 'hide' with me, LOL! God is taking care of me just like He said He said He would.

Steph

He does do what He says. Have a great Christmas.

possumliving
Dec 26th 2008, 11:20 PM
He does do what He says. Have a great Christmas.

Thanks! I had a wonderful Christmas! It was so nice a peaceful!

Steph

Bladers
Dec 27th 2008, 06:53 PM
Why would a GOOD GOD pour His wrath on his own people?

Genesis 18:23-35 (King James Version)

(23)And Abraham drew near, and said, Wilt thou also destroy the righteous with the wicked?

(24)Peradventure there be fifty righteous within the city: wilt thou also destroy and not spare the place for the fifty righteous that are therein?

(25)That be far from thee to do after this manner, to slay the righteous with the wicked: and that the righteous should be as the wicked, that be far from thee: Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?

(26)And the LORD said, If I find in Sodom fifty righteous within the city, then I will spare all the place for their sakes.

(32)And he said, Oh let not the LORD be angry, and I will speak yet but this once: Peradventure ten shall be found there. And he said, I will not destroy it for ten's sake

Jude
Dec 29th 2008, 03:12 AM
http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u298/hogndog/pray_persecuted_church.jpg

http://www.sacred-texts.com/chr/martyrs/index.htm

Jude


http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u298/hogndog/twocents.gif

He will come at the last trump.




http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u298/hogndog/globe8.gif

Jerome1
Dec 29th 2008, 01:35 PM
In Ezekiel14:12-20 the word of the Lord comes to Ezekiel and tells him that if a land sins against him by acting faithlessly, only Job, Daniel, and Noah would save themselves by their righteousness.

So unless you believe you are more righteous than these men, be prepared to suffer. Remember also that all of the apostles except John were martyred.

Barbie
Dec 31st 2008, 09:04 PM
I have thought alot about that very question and I have a couple of answers... First the Bible describes the Anti-Christ and so we ( believers ) will not be fooled.
1) He will sign a 7 year peace treaty with Israel
2) He will violate it 3 and a half years later...etc
My point is the Bible gives us the answers so we should not deceived.
Also the Bible says Mat 10:19But when they deliver you up, take no thought how or what ye shall speak: for it shall be given you in that same hour what ye shall speak.
Mat 10:20For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you.
Mat 10:21And the brother shall deliver up the brother to death, and the father the child: and the children shall rise up againsttheirparents, and cause them to be put to death.
Mat 10:22And ye shall be hated of allmenfor my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.
God never said it would be easy to follow Him but He will be with us even unto death. Most of the prophets were killed and suffered horribly. The thing for me ( my opinion only ) is to be willing to suffer and die if need be. I hope to give you the same reassurance that Jesus gave to His followers...
Luk 21:36Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man. AND...
Rev 3:10Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of testing, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
If Jesus said it I believe it! He said it twice in just these 2 verses that we can escape the trials and tests that will happen, IF we are watchful and walk in prayer.

iWrecknSow
Jan 2nd 2009, 11:23 PM
http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u298/hogndog/pray_persecuted_church.jpg

http://www.sacred-texts.com/chr/martyrs/index.htm

Jude


http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u298/hogndog/twocents.gif

He will come at the last trump.




http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u298/hogndog/globe8.gif

Sure will.


MATTHEW 24 [29]IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: [30] And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. [31] And he shall send his angels with A GREAT SOUND OF A TRUMPET, and THEY SHALL GATHER TOGETHER HIS ELECT from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Here we find a trumpet being blown after the tribulation period. No matter how ya figure it, you cannot have the LAST TRUMPET being blown prior to the tribulation or mid tribulation if a trumpet is being blown AFTER the tribulation.

Raybob
Jan 2nd 2009, 11:54 PM
I have thought alot about that very question and I have a couple of answers... First the Bible describes the Anti-Christ and so we ( believers ) will not be fooled.
1) He will sign a 7 year peace treaty with Israel
2) He will violate it 3 and a half years later...etc...

Barbie,
I've heard that preached before but I can't find any 7 year peace treaty signed in the bible. Where did you find these verses?

Thanks,
Raybob

revrobor
Jan 4th 2009, 02:10 AM
What makes you think we are not in the "Tribulation" now? Just look around the world. The events you describe take place in the "Great Tribulation" and followers of the Lord Jesus won't be here to see that.

JesusMySavior
Jan 4th 2009, 03:21 AM
What makes you think we are not in the "Tribulation" now? Just look around the world. The events you describe take place in the "Great Tribulation" and followers of the Lord Jesus won't be here to see that.


Because in II Thessalonians it says that the man of abominations cannot come until certain things have happened.

Things are peaceful now compared to what will happen. Jesus said that it will be a time like there has never been, nor will there ever be.

revrobor
Jan 4th 2009, 07:32 AM
Because in II Thessalonians it says that the man of abominations cannot come until certain things have happened.

Things are peaceful now compared to what will happen. Jesus said that it will be a time like there has never been, nor will there ever be.

Jesus was talking about what scholars call "The Great Tribulation" or the last half of the time of "Troubles". If you lived in the middle east, Africa, India or southeast Aisa I don't believe you'd think it is peaceful now.

possumliving
Jan 4th 2009, 08:17 PM
Jesus was talking about what scholars call "The Great Tribulation" or the last half of the time of "Troubles". If you lived in the middle east, Africa, India or southeast Aisa I don't believe you'd think it is peaceful now.

Well, just give it another year and you won't think it's so peaceful over here either.

We got TV saying 2 mil. unemployed (just in 2008), but I got on another station a month ago that there are 4.3 mil unemployed in America right now. That means too, that there are people who quit looking for work and aren't drawing unemployment benefits because they can't afford the gas to keep looking or they have no hope.

Got a SIL, who's children were working out of temp agencies and they can't even find work up north.

You got 1 in 10 people on food stamps (last years stats)

1 in 10 in FL are being evicted (that's renters and foreclosed together).

You got a 23% increase in those that use food pantries and soup kitchens and those were stats from back in May of this year.

Oh, and let's not forget that there are now 37 states that are out of unemplyment benefits and teh states are having to borrow money from the feds to pay them.

You all ain't seen nothing yet! :eek:

Crime is going up already!

Steph

JesusMySavior
Jan 5th 2009, 05:45 AM
Jesus was talking about what scholars call "The Great Tribulation" or the last half of the time of "Troubles". If you lived in the middle east, Africa, India or southeast Aisa I don't believe you'd think it is peaceful now.


Birth pangs. They are growing in intensity and frequency. There has always been tribulation in the world since Jesus went to be with the Father. You can ask the Christians in communist russia what they went through. It's tribulation but not "the" tribulation. But things are moving along pretty quickly now and this world ain't very stable for Christians, save for the western world, and even now we're starting to see signs of our Christian freedoms going the tubes.


we may differ on views but Jesus is coming soon and that's for sure.

Marjiealm
Jan 14th 2009, 03:27 AM
Barbie,
I've heard that preached before but I can't find any 7 year peace treaty signed in the bible. Where did you find these verses?

Thanks,
Raybob


The Peace Treaty has yet to be agreed upon, much less get signed (The is what Pres. Bush was trying to accomplish in Annapolis before he left office between Abbas & Olmert) Then this war in Gaza began.

Daniel 9:27 (King James Version)

27And he (anti-christ) shall confirm the covenant (Peace Agreement)with many for one week (7 years): and in the midst of the week (3 ½ years) he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

I hope this helps!

Marjie

Raybob
Jan 14th 2009, 05:25 AM
The Peace Treaty has yet to be agreed upon, much less get signed (The is what Pres. Bush was trying to accomplish in Annapolis before he left office between Abbas & Olmert) Then this war in Gaza began.

Daniel 9:27 (King James Version)

27And he (anti-christ) shall confirm the covenant (Peace Agreement)with many for one week (7 years): and in the midst of the week (3 ½ years) he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

I hope this helps!

Marjie

Hmm... My bible doesn't mention anti-Christ or Peace agreement. It speaks of the new covenant Jesus brought to His people.

Dan 9:25-27 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. (26) And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. (27) And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Jesus was the one that caused the sacrifice and oblation to cease at the cross. He is the one that caused the OT sanctuary to be desolate at the cross because of the abominations of the Pharisees and scribes.

I can't find where any other prince is mentioned or even introduced in this passage.

Raybob

quiet dove
Jan 14th 2009, 07:01 PM
The Peace Treaty has yet to be agreed upon, much less get signed (The is what Pres. Bush was trying to accomplish in Annapolis before he left office between Abbas & Olmert) Then this war in Gaza began.

Daniel 9:27 (King James Version)

27And he (anti-christ) shall confirm the covenant (Peace Agreement)with many for one week (7 years): and in the midst of the week (3 ½ years) he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

I hope this helps!

Marjie

Hi Marjie, welcome to the board. I agree with your post too. :)

Marjiealm
Jan 14th 2009, 10:00 PM
Hmm... My bible doesn't mention anti-Christ or Peace agreement. It speaks of the new covenant Jesus brought to His people.

Dan 9:25-27 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. (26) And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. (27) And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Jesus was the one that caused the sacrifice and oblation to cease at the cross. He is the one that caused the OT sanctuary to be desolate at the cross because of the abominations of the Pharisees and scribes.

I can't find where any other prince is mentioned or even introduced in this passage.

Raybob

In Jesus' prophecies for the last generation, He said there would be a period called the "tribulation" (Matthew 24: 9) immediately before His return. This 7 year period is literally the last 7 years in human history as man knows it.



Also referring to this 7 year period, Daniel shows that it will commence when "the prince (antichrist) who is to come" (Dan.9: 26) "will make a firm covenant with many for 1 week (Confirmation of the covenant / or Peace agreement". (Dan. 9: 27). In the context of his writing, 1 "week" represents a period of, not 7 "days", but 7 years.



"Making a covenant with many" is confirmed by other scriptures as meaning that a treaty or contract of sorts will be negotiated in the last days to quell the hostilities between Israel & her neighboring Arab countries in their quest for Jerusalem. (Zech.14:1). The signing of this 7 year Mideast peace plan literally begins the final 7 year tribulation.


The word "confirmation" means -

Main Entry: con·fir·ma·tion
Pronunciation: "kän-f&r-'mA-sh&n
Function: noun

1. something that confirms, as a corroborative statement or piece of evidence: His birth certificate served as confirmation of his citizenship.
2. making something valid by formally ratifying or confirming it; "the ratification of the treaty"; "confirmation of the appointment"
3. The written acknowledgment provided by a broker indicating that a trade has been completed. It includes details such as the date, price, commission, fees, settlement terms, and so on.
4. something that confirms: express or implied contract by which a person makes a voidable agreement binding; specifically : a definite expression or written memorandum that verifies or substantiates an agreement previously made orally or informally.

I trully hope this helps!

Marjie

Raybob
Jan 15th 2009, 02:35 AM
In Jesus' prophecies for the last generation, He said there would be a period called the "tribulation" (Matthew 24: 9) immediately before His return. This 7 year period is literally the last 7 years in human history as man knows it.



Also referring to this 7 year period, Daniel shows that it will commence when "the prince (antichrist) who is to come" (Dan.9: 26) "will make a firm covenant with many for 1 week (Confirmation of the covenant / or Peace agreement". (Dan. 9: 27). In the context of his writing, 1 "week" represents a period of, not 7 "days", but 7 years.

Marjie,
The word "for" in "And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week". The original Hebrew text translated to english says "And he shall confirm the covenant with many one week". Daniel 9 is about the new covenant that Jesus (the prince) brought many years ago. The antiChrist isn't mentioned, nor is a 7 year covenant. The covenant that Jesus brought us is eternal, not just for 7 years.

Heb 13:20-21 Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant, (21) Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

Raybob

cross crusader
Jan 15th 2009, 03:12 AM
In Jesus' prophecies for the last generation, He said there would be a period called the "tribulation" (Matthew 24: 9) immediately before His return. This 7 year period is literally the last 7 years in human history as man knows it.



Also referring to this 7 year period, Daniel shows that it will commence when "the prince (antichrist) who is to come" (Dan.9: 26) "will make a firm covenant with many for 1 week (Confirmation of the covenant / or Peace agreement". (Dan. 9: 27). In the context of his writing, 1 "week" represents a period of, not 7 "days", but 7 years.



"Making a covenant with many" is confirmed by other scriptures as meaning that a treaty or contract of sorts will be negotiated in the last days to quell the hostilities between Israel & her neighboring Arab countries in their quest for Jerusalem. (Zech.14:1). The signing of this 7 year Mideast peace plan literally begins the final 7 year tribulation.


The word "confirmation" means -

Main Entry: con·fir·ma·tion
Pronunciation: "kän-f&r-'mA-sh&n
Function: noun

1. something that confirms, as a corroborative statement or piece of evidence: His birth certificate served as confirmation of his citizenship.
2. making something valid by formally ratifying or confirming it; "the ratification of the treaty"; "confirmation of the appointment"
3. The written acknowledgment provided by a broker indicating that a trade has been completed. It includes details such as the date, price, commission, fees, settlement terms, and so on.
4. something that confirms: express or implied contract by which a person makes a voidable agreement binding; specifically : a definite expression or written memorandum that verifies or substantiates an agreement previously made orally or informally.

I trully hope this helps!

Marjie
not reading the rest of the posts, but in order for a literal 7 year tribulation to happen, according to the prophecy in dan. that you stated, that means that most of the book of Hebrews is wrong, especially chapters 5-10, to save you the trouble of looking it up it talks about Jesus' sacrfrice once for all, and that nothing else is sufficient, so if there is a literal 7 years trib, then the Jews begin doing God ordained sacrifices? Heresy. for sure. that goes against the word of God.

Raybob
Jan 15th 2009, 03:38 AM
not reading the rest of the posts, but in order for a literal 7 year tribulation to happen, according to the prophecy in dan. that you stated, that means that most of the book of Hebrews is wrong, especially chapters 5-10, to save you the trouble of looking it up it talks about Jesus' sacrfrice once for all, and that nothing else is sufficient, so if there is a literal 7 years trib, then the Jews begin doing God ordained sacrifices? Heresy. for sure. that goes against the word of God.

Amen.

Heb 10:4-10 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins. (5) Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me: (6) In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure. (7) Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God. (8) Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law; (9) Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second. (10) By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

Raybob

DurbanDude
Jan 15th 2009, 08:43 AM
Also referring to this 7 year period, Daniel shows that it will commence when "the prince (antichrist) who is to come" (Dan.9: 26) "will make a firm covenant with many for 1 week (Confirmation of the covenant / or Peace agreement". (Dan. 9: 27). In the context of his writing, 1 "week" represents a period of, not 7 "days", but 7 years.


Marjie, these verse are actually saying that at the time the Messiah comes (483 years , one seven before 490 years), someone will confirm a covenant. This is referring to Jesus confirming the covenant of God, that a Messiah would come to free them. 3.5 years later Jesus was crucified as the final sin sacrifice, putting an end to acceptable sacrifices for sin.

Some people get confused by the word "he" in Daniel 9:27, but there are other examples in the bible where the word "he" refers to the main character in a passage (Micah/Thessalonians), and not the last male character mentioned.

Don't you find it strange that no-where in the NT is there any mention of a seven year period, but many times a 3.5 year period is mentioned. This is because 3.5 years has already been fulfilled by Jesus.

possumliving
Jan 15th 2009, 09:01 AM
The Amplified says this:

Dan 9:24 Seventy weeks [of years, or 490 years] are decreed upon your people and upon your holy city [Jerusalem], to finish {and} put an end to transgression, to seal up {and} make full the measure of sin, to purge away {and} make expiation {and} reconciliation for sin, to bring in everlasting righteousness (permanent moral and spiritual rectitude in every area and relation) to seal up vision and prophecy {and} prophet, and to anoint a Holy of Holies.
Dan 9:25 Know therefore and understand that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem until [the coming of] the Anointed One, a Prince, shall be seven weeks [of years] and sixty-two weeks [of years]; it shall be built again with [city] square and moat, but in troublous times.
Dan 9:26 And after the sixty-two weeks [of years] shall the Anointed One be cut off {or} killed and shall have nothing [and no one] belonging to [and defending] Him. And the people of the [other] prince who will come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. Its end shall come with a flood; and even to the end there shall be war, and desolations are decreed.
Dan 9:27 And he shall enter into a strong {and} firm covenant with the many for one week [seven years]. And in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and offering to cease [for the remaining three and one-half years]; and upon the wing {or} pinnacle of abominations [shall come] one who makes desolate, until the full determined end is poured out on the desolator.

Marjiealm
Jan 15th 2009, 05:09 PM
not reading the rest of the posts, but in order for a literal 7 year tribulation to happen, according to the prophecy in dan. that you stated, that means that most of the book of Hebrews is wrong, especially chapters 5-10, to save you the trouble of looking it up it talks about Jesus' sacrfrice once for all, and that nothing else is sufficient, so if there is a literal 7 years trib, then the Jews begin doing God ordained sacrifices? Heresy. for sure. that goes against the word of God.


I'm not sure if you are aware of this, but the Sanhedrin have already began sacrificing http://pinchas.blogspot.com/2007/03/sanhedrin-update-korban-pesach.html
"Passover sacrifice is intended to remind Jews that the Temple rituals will resume when the Messiah comes." They are still waiting for his 1st coming!

As far as the book of Hebrews --- I'm know that Jesus was our ultimate sacrifice!

None of God's Word is wrong!!!!!

Anyhow, if you are up to reading, I've copied and pasted this from what I study. It should help to understand what I'm trying to bring across.

Stempublishing (http://www.stempublishing.com/authors/darby/synopsis/daniel/daniel9.html)

Daniel


Chapter 9




Daniel's confession, intercession and plea. God's answer


Chapter 9 gives us a vision concerning the people and the holy city, consequent on Daniel's confession and intercession. It is, as has been remarked, in connection with the oppression of the western power. Indeed, the details relate to oppression. The prophet had understood (not by a direct revelation, but by the study of Jeremiah's prophecy, by the use of those ordinary means that are within the reach of the spiritual man) that the captivity, the duration of which Jeremiah had announced, was near its end. The effect on Daniel's mind (true sign of a prophet of God) was to produce an ardent intercession on behalf of the desolate sanctuary, and the city which Jehovah loved. He pours out his heart in confession before God, acknowledging the sin of the people and of their kings, the hardness of their hearts, and the righteousness of God in bringing evil upon them. He pleads the mercies of God, and demands favor for Jehovah's own sake. The prophecy is God's answer to his prayer. Seventy weeks are determined upon the people of Daniel and upon his holy city. Jehovah does not yet acknowledge them definitely for His own; but He accepts the intercession of the prophet, as He had formerly done that of Moses, by saying to Daniel, "thy people and thy city." Daniel stands in the place of mediator. He has the mind of God -- His words; and thus he can intercede (compare on this deeply interesting point, Gen. 20: 7; Jer. 27: 18; John 15: 7).
God's revelation: His seventy weeks upon the people and the holy city

At the end of these seventy weeks, separated from among the ages, the time should come, decreed of God, to finish the transgression, to seal up, that is, to make an end of sin, and to put it away; to pardon iniquity and bring in everlasting righteousness; to seal up [all] vision and prophecy, and to anoint the holy of holies: this, observe, with respect to the people of Israel and to the city. It is the entire re-establishment of the people, and of the city, in grace.
The three parts of the seventy weeks

This period of seventy weeks is divided into three parts -- seven, sixty-two, and one. During the first part, or the seven weeks, the desolate city and its overthrown walls would be rebuilt in troublous times, or in the strait of times. After sixty-two weeks, that is, after sixty-nine altogether, the Messiah should be cut off, and should have nothing (this is the true sense of the words). He to whom the kingdom and the glory belonged, instead of receiving them, should be cut off and have nothing. But after this event the city and the sanctuary, which had been rebuilt, should be destroyed, and the end should be like a desolating flood; and there should be an ordinance, or determinate decree, of desolation until the end of the war. This is, in general, the complete history of the desolations. Sixty-nine weeks have been accomplished -- after that, the Messiah is cut off; but the precise moment at which this takes place is not indicated. The course of the seventy weeks is thus entirely interrupted. The cutting off of the Messiah was not the moment of the re-establishment of the people and of the city. The result is plainly announced -- a period of desolation until the end: its duration is not given. We shall find in chapter 11 the same manner of treating an analogous period. The people of a prince who was yet to come should destroy the city.
The seventieth week: its last half

After this, the Spirit of God takes up the seventieth week, the details of which were not yet unfolded. The prince that shall come confirms a covenant with the mass of the Jews. (The form of the word many [1] indicates the mass of the people). This is the first thing that characterizes the week; the Jews form an alliance with the head, at that day, of the people who had formerly overthrown their city and their sanctuary. They form an alliance with the head of the Roman Empire. This refers to the week as a whole. But, the half of the week spent [2] , things assume another aspect. This head causes the sacrifice and the oblation to cease; and on account of the protection of idols, there is a desolator; and until the consummation that is determined [3] , there shall be poured [judgment] upon the desolate.
The seventy weeks as a brief history of the period to elapse until judgment on the Jews was past

That which is here announced, then, is, that seventy weeks are set apart for the history of the city and people of Daniel. During these seventy weeks, God is in relationship with Israel [4] ; nevertheless, not immediately so, but in connection with the faith of the believing remnant, of a Daniel, of an intercession which, linking itself with the existence of a remnant, serves as a bond between God and the people: an intercession without which the people would be rejected. It is the same principle as that which governed the relations between God and the people by means of Moses, after the golden calf -- the people being called the people of Daniel, as formerly the people of Moses. This position is remarkable, as taking place after the establishment of the authority of the Gentiles. The Jews are at Jerusalem, but the Gentiles reign, although the empire of Babylon is overthrown. In this anomalous position prophetic faith seeks the complete re-establishment of the city, the seat of government of God and of His people. It is to this that the answer of God refers. A brief but complete history is given of the period which should elapse until the judgment upon the Jews was accomplished and past.
Messiah cut off: the consequences

A new element of great importance is also introduced: the Messiah should be cut off. He would have nothing of that which in right belonged to Him. The consequence of this would be the destruction of the city and of the sanctuary, desolation and war. It would be the prince of another empire, not yet in existence, who should thus destroy the city and the sanctuary. The relations between God and the people were now completely broken off for the time -- even as regarded a believing remnant. The faith of Daniel was rejected in the Person of Christ as the prophet, and in the denial of Christ expressed by the declaration that they would have no king but Caesar; and the people and the city were given up to desolation.
The covenant and the idolatry

But there remained one week yet unaccomplished with this faithless and perverse, but yet beloved, race, before their iniquity should be pardoned, and everlasting righteousness brought in, and the vision and the prophecy closed by their fulfillment. This week should be distinguished by a covenant which the prince or leader would make with the Jewish people (with the exception of the remnant), and then by the compulsory cessation of their worship through the intervention of this prince. After that the Jews having placed themselves under the protection of idols -- this unclean spirit, long driven out of the people, having again entered into them with seven others worse than himself, the desolator comes, and the final judgments are inflicted on the people -- terrible judgments; but the extent of which is definitely fixed by God when their measure shall be full. Thus we find a very precise answer is given to the prophet's request; an answer which very distinctly unfolds the consequences of the connection of Daniel's people with the Gentile power. Their position is very clearly set forth, while the relationship with God, by means of the prophet's intercession, still exists.
Messiah's rejection, the Jews dispersion and the great tribulation

The prophecy announces at the same time the general fact of the people's desolation after the sixty-ninth week was past, and (with a seeming lull from the favor of the beast), on to the end of the seventieth, occasioned by their rejection of the Messiah, which took place at the very time when the promise attached to the prophecy should have been on the point of fulfillment; and the rejection of whom (coming in the name of His Father) has led to the long dispersion of the Jews, which will continue until the time of their being gathered, a prey to the iniquity of the head of the Gentiles; the time, in fact, of their falling into the hands of the one who should come in his own name -- a sorrowful condition developed during the last week, but to which God has set a limit; and beyond that, no malice of the enemy can reach.
[1] The word "many" has an article prefixed to it in the Hebrew. The same thing is the case in other parts of Daniel, to which we shall draw the reader's attention, and which clearly prove that the mass of the people are in question -- "the many." The same form of phrase is found in Greek. 2 Cor. 2: 6; 9: 2.
[2] We may observe that the Lord only speaks expressly of the last half-week, of the time of tribulation which follows the setting up of the idol that maketh desolate in the holy place. Some have thought that there would be only this half-week to come, Christ having been cut off in the midst of the week. Others have thought that the seventieth week had entirely elapsed before the Lord's death, but that it is not reckoned, Jesus having been rejected, and that this week is found again at the time of the Jews' connection with the wicked one. What the passage tells us is this: first, the prince, the head that is of the Roman empire, in the latter days makes a covenant referring to one whole week; on the other hand, the Lord speaks of the last half of the week as being to take place immediately before His coming, as the time of unequalled tribulation that precedes it. If this were all, the foregoing history of the prince to come, who makes a covenant, would fall into the general history of the state of things. The question whether one or two half-weeks remain to be fulfilled, and in what way, during the manifestation of the power of evil, I reserve (as to its full development) for the book of Revelation; remarking only that Messiah is cut off after the end of 69 weeks. We know from the New Testament that His ministry lasted just half the week. Of this clearly the prince or Jews, with whom he makes alliance, would make no account. The interpretation of this passage is clear; the covenant for a week with the prince to come, as if 69 weeks alone were run out, Messiah and His cutting off being ignored, and a half-week of utter oppression because of idols, till the consummation decreed.
[3]
This is an expression constantly used for the last judgments that shall fall upon the Jews (see Isaiah 10: 22; 28: 22). The second verse of this last chapter compares the desolator to a flood, as in verse 26 of the chapter we are considering. The attentive reader will observe that these passages refer also to the events of the last days. Remark also the covenant in Isaiah 28: 15 &18.
Some doubts might be thrown upon the translation "the desolate"; some render it "the desolator," and "until the destruction that is decreed there shall be poured [judgment] upon the desolator," or rather, "until the destruction decreed shall be poured upon the desolator." To any one that is not very familiar with the word, this seems to end the sentence better; but it appears to me that those who are conversant with the whole contents of the Bible and with its phraseology will allow that the reading I have given is its truer meaning. The import of the prophecy is the same in either case. The one translation says that the desolation shall continue until the end of judgment, fore-ordained by God; the other, that it shall not cease until the destruction of the desolator, which comes to the same thing. The translation I have given appears to me more exact, more in accordance with the word. Our English translation reads "desolate," giving "desolator" in the margin. But the word has not the same form as that which is translated "desolator" in other places where the meaning is certain. The previous clause I have rendered "on account of the protection of idols." The word is literally "wing" -- upon, or on the account of, the wing of abominations. And we know that the word wing is habitually employed for protection.
[4]
The power of the Gentiles existing at the same time. We know from scripture that the restoration of Jerusalem took place under the reign of the Gentiles, as well as the whole course of the sixty-nine weeks which have assuredly passed away. The seventy have all the same character in this respect. It is only at the end of the seventy that pardon is granted. Whoever may be the instrument of establishing the covenant the fourth beast will be at that time the ruling power of the Gentiles, to whom God has committed authority. It is very important, if we would understand the seventy weeks, to remark this state of things -- the Jews restored, the city rebuilt, but the Gentiles still occupying the throne of the world. The seventy weeks have their course only under these conditions. It must be well understood that it is the people of Daniel who are meant, and his city, which are to be re-established in their former favor with God. The longsuffering of God still now waits. The Gentile power has already failed in faithfulness; Babylon has been overthrown; by means of intercession, the Jews provisionally restored, and the temple rebuilt. The seventy weeks had very nearly elapsed when Christ came. If the Jews, and Jerusalem in that her day, had repented, all was ready for her re-establishment in glory. Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob could have been raised up, as Lazarus had been. But she knew not the day of her visitation, and the fulfilling of the seventy weeks, as well as the blessing that should follow, had necessarily to be postponed. Through grace we know that God had yet more excellent thoughts and purposes, and that man's state was such that this could not have been, as the event proved. Accordingly all is here announced beforehand. (Compare Isaiah 49: 4-6.)

cross crusader
Jan 15th 2009, 08:13 PM
the tribualtion period takes place, then one would have to basically bow down to the devil(anti-christ) and, accept the mark or, if we don't then, we will be killed right? So what are we to do while we are on our last bread crumb or drink of water, etc. Thoughts anyone?
i went back to your original post, and i am not reading the rest of the thread, so excuse me if someone already said this, i do not believe in a single antichrist, the bible talks about the spirit of the antichrist, and that there were and will be many, so, as far as that is concerned, according to the abomination of desolation, the antichrist will set himself in the temple of God as God, what is the temple of God today? our body. people today make themselves out to be their own gods and worship the creation rather than the creator, this is exactly what is going on in romans 1 and 2 and God gives them over to debased minds. as far as the great tribulation if you look around the world, not in america yet, but there is great tribulation going on now for christians in other countries as pointed out in a previous post. the Lord will provide for the godly. 2 peter 2. the word tells us to be anxious for nothing. Jesus tells us not to worry, God will provide like he always has for those that follow him. and we should be thrilled to be a martyr for Christ.

mfowler12
Jan 15th 2009, 10:55 PM
not reading the rest of the posts, but in order for a literal 7 year tribulation to happen, according to the prophecy in dan. that you stated, that means that most of the book of Hebrews is wrong, especially chapters 5-10, to save you the trouble of looking it up it talks about Jesus' sacrfrice once for all, and that nothing else is sufficient, so if there is a literal 7 years trib, then the Jews begin doing God ordained sacrifices? Heresy. for sure. that goes against the word of God.


Amen.

Heb 10:4-10 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins. (5) Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me: (6) In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure. (7) Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God. (8) Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law; (9) Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second. (10) By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

Raybob

Just because Jesus is the end of all sacrifice doesn't mean that Israel won't begin the sacrifices again. Remember, Israel is still looking for the Messiah to come.

cross crusader
Jan 16th 2009, 03:37 AM
Just because Jesus is the end of all sacrifice doesn't mean that Israel won't begin the sacrifices again. Remember, Israel is still looking for the Messiah to come.
they are i agree and they could, but if i am wrong let me know cause i havent studied the pre trib rapture in years, but according to that theology isnt the trib period for jews to be saved? for the returning of them to israel, dont they believe this is the promise? that the jews are gonna be saved during the 7 year churchless trib?

David Taylor
Jan 17th 2009, 03:41 PM
Remember, Israel is still looking for the Messiah to come.
No, only some Israelis are still looking for Messiah to come.


Many great multitudes of Israelis have, are presently, and will continue to accept Jesus as their Messiah, and would never look for another.

blssdbeyond
Jan 18th 2009, 09:14 AM
Revelation 6


1And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard, as it were the noise of thunder, one of the four beasts saying, Come and see.
2And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.
3And when he had opened the second seal, I heard the second beast say, Come and see.
4And there went out another horse that was red: and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great sword.
5And when he had opened the third seal, I heard the third beast say, Come and see. And I beheld, and lo a black horse; and he that sat on him had a pair of balances in his hand.
6And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and see thou hurt not the oil and the wine.
7And when he had opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth beast say, Come and see.
8And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.
9And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
10And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
11And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
12And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
13And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
14And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
15And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: 17For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Can someone explain why the 5th seal is always overlooked and ignored?? Does this give us some insight about the question of the rapture vs tribulation for the believers in Christ?

Raybob
Jan 18th 2009, 07:49 PM
Can someone explain why the 5th seal is always overlooked and ignored?? Does this give us some insight about the question of the rapture vs tribulation for the believers in Christ?

It blows a hole in the rapture theory. :)

Raybob

possumliving
Jan 19th 2009, 08:13 PM
If that doesn't blow a hole in the rapture theory, I don't know what will! But, the one question I ask pre-tribbers is this, especially Baptists.

1. Do you agree that When Jesus comes, the dead in Christ shall rise first?

Yes

2. When does that happen?

The sound of the last trumpet

3. The final question is this. Go to the book of Revelation and tell me when the last trumpet is blown?

Rev 10:7 But that when the days come when the trumpet call of the seventh angel is about to be sounded, then God's mystery (His secret design, His hidden purpose), as He had announced the glad tidings to His servants the prophets, should be fulfilled (accomplished, completed).

Rev 11:15 The seventh angel then blew [his] trumpet, and there were mighty voices in heaven, shouting, The dominion (kingdom, sovereignty, rule) of the world has now come into the possession and become the kingdom of our Lord and of His Christ (the Messiah), and He shall reign forever and ever (for the eternities of the eternities)!

Rev 16:17 Then the seventh [angel] emptied out his bowl into the air, and a mighty voice came out of the sanctuary {of heaven} from the throne [of God], saying, It is done! [It is all over, it is all accomplished, it has come!]

There are only seven angels, with seven trumpets and bowls. So the seventh one is the one that calls us up yonder.

The Lamb of God breaks open the seals. Then the seven angels are given seven trumpets.

Rev 8:1 WHEN HE [the Lamb] broke open the seventh seal, there was silence for about half an hour in heaven.
Rev 8:2 Then I saw the seven angels who stand before God, and to them were given seven trumpets.
Rev 8:3 And another angel came and stood over the altar. He had a golden censer, and he was given very much incense (fragrant spices and gums which exhale perfume when burned), that he might mingle it with the prayers of all the people of God (the saints) upon the golden altar before the throne.
Rev 8:4 And the smoke of the incense (the perfume) arose in the presence of God, with the prayers of the people of God (the saints), from the hand of the angel.
Rev 8:5 So the angel took the censer and filled it with fire from the altar and cast it upon the earth. Then there followed peals of thunder {and} loud rumblings and blasts {and} noises, and flashes of lightning and an earthquake.
Rev 8:6 Then the seven angels who had the seven trumpets prepared to sound them.

All those things written about what happens prior to the seventh trumpet will happen while we are here.

Steph

quiet dove
Jan 19th 2009, 08:48 PM
If that doesn't blow a hole in the rapture theory, I don't know what will! But, the one question I ask pre-tribbers is this, especially Baptists.

1. Do you agree that When Jesus comes, the dead in Christ shall rise first?

Yes

2. When does that happen?

The sound of the last trumpet

3. The final question is this. Go to the book of Revelation and tell me when the last trumpet is blown?

Rev 10:7 But that when the days come when the trumpet call of the seventh angel is about to be sounded, then God's mystery (His secret design, His hidden purpose), as He had announced the glad tidings to His servants the prophets, should be fulfilled (accomplished, completed).

Rev 11:15 The seventh angel then blew [his] trumpet, and there were mighty voices in heaven, shouting, The dominion (kingdom, sovereignty, rule) of the world has now come into the possession and become the kingdom of our Lord and of His Christ (the Messiah), and He shall reign forever and ever (for the eternities of the eternities)!

Rev 16:17 Then the seventh [angel] emptied out his bowl into the air, and a mighty voice came out of the sanctuary {of heaven} from the throne [of God], saying, It is done! [It is all over, it is all accomplished, it has come!]

There are only seven angels, with seven trumpets and bowls. So the seventh one is the one that calls us up yonder.

The Lamb of God breaks open the seals. Then the seven angels are given seven trumpets.

Rev 8:1 WHEN HE [the Lamb] broke open the seventh seal, there was silence for about half an hour in heaven.
Rev 8:2 Then I saw the seven angels who stand before God, and to them were given seven trumpets.
Rev 8:3 And another angel came and stood over the altar. He had a golden censer, and he was given very much incense (fragrant spices and gums which exhale perfume when burned), that he might mingle it with the prayers of all the people of God (the saints) upon the golden altar before the throne.
Rev 8:4 And the smoke of the incense (the perfume) arose in the presence of God, with the prayers of the people of God (the saints), from the hand of the angel.
Rev 8:5 So the angel took the censer and filled it with fire from the altar and cast it upon the earth. Then there followed peals of thunder {and} loud rumblings and blasts {and} noises, and flashes of lightning and an earthquake.
Rev 8:6 Then the seven angels who had the seven trumpets prepared to sound them.

All those things written about what happens prior to the seventh trumpet will happen while we are here.

Steph

In Revelation a "seventh" trumpet is blown, the seventh in a series of judgments. Scripture supports that each type or signal of a trumpet is distinct, so the people know what it means. A trumpet sound to gather the people and a trumpet of judgment would not be the same sound, series, and certainly not the same trumpet. "Seventh" in a series of judgment and "last" in calling to gather a group are not said to be the same trumpet.

quiet dove
Jan 19th 2009, 09:05 PM
Originally Posted by blssdbeyond http://bibleforums.org/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?p=1949063#post1949063)
Can someone explain why the 5th seal is always overlooked and ignored?? Does this give us some insight about the question of the rapture vs tribulation for the believers in Christ?

It blows a hole in the rapture theory. :)

Raybob



It is not being ignored, nor does it "blow a hole" in the rapture "theory".

The first four seals, along with the rest can only be opened by the One who has the right to judgment, Jesus. The judgment of the seals is upon those who have rejected Him. However, in His mercy, any one who turns to Him will be saved, but they will also most likely be martyred, thus the ones under the alter.

"....those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. "

Saying that because these after the rapture will most likely be killed, and thus that is not fair others got raptured is like saying it is not "fair" that some live in places where they are not persecuted for their faith and some do. No one need be "not raptured" prior to the tribulation. They are not being forced to accept Christ, but niether are they being forced not to, no matter where they live thier excuse for rejecting Him will be torn down by those who did accept Him, be they living free of or in the worst of persecution. There is a saved soul somewhere in the Bride of Christ who by accepting Him will tear down all excuses given by those who rejected Him.

How far will God go to get folks saved during that terrible time?

Rev 14:6 Then I saw another angel flying in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach to those who dwell on the earth to every nation, tribe, tongue, and people—

possumliving
Jan 19th 2009, 09:13 PM
In Revelation a "seventh" trumpet is blown, the seventh in a series of judgments. Scripture supports that each type or signal of a trumpet is distinct, so the people know what it means. A trumpet sound to gather the people and a trumpet of judgment would not be the same sound, series, and certainly not the same trumpet. "Seventh" in a series of judgment and "last" in calling to gather a group are not said to be the same trumpet.

I surely hope you aren't adding a trumpet to the book of Revelation! :o

Acts 10:42 And He charged us to preach to the people and to bear solemn testimony that He is the God-appointed {and} God-ordained Judge of the living and the dead.

John 3:17 For God did not send the Son into the world in order to judge (to reject, to condemn, to pass sentence on) the world, but that the world might find salvation {and} be made safe {and} sound through Him.
John 3:18 He who believes in Him [who clings to, trusts in, relies on Him] is not judged [he who trusts in Him never comes up for judgment; for him there is no rejection, no condemnation--he incurs no damnation]; but he who does not believe (cleave to, rely on, trust in Him) is judged already [he has already been convicted and has already received his sentence] because he has not believed in {and} trusted in the name of the only begotten Son of God. [He is condemned for refusing to let his trust rest in Christ's name.]
John 3:19 The judgment (indictment, the test by which men are judged, the ground for the sentence) lies in this: the Light has come into the world, and people have loved the darkness rather than {and} more than the Light, for their works (deeds) were evil.

I think, that most people have this misconception about what goes on during this time.

First, Believers are [B]sealed unto the day of redemption.

2 Cor 1:22 [He has also appropriated and acknowledged us as His by] putting His seal upon us and giving us His [Holy] Spirit in our hearts as the security deposit {and} guarantee [of the fulfillment of His promise].]

Eph 1:13 In Him you also who have heard the Word of Truth, the glad tidings (Gospel) of your salvation, and have believed in {and} adhered to {and} relied on Him, were stamped with the seal of the long-promised Holy Spirit.

Eph 4:30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God [do not offend or vex or sadden Him], by Whom you were sealed (marked, branded as God's own, secured) for the day of redemption (of final deliverance through Christ from evil and the consequences of sin).

2 Tim 2:19 But the firm foundation of (laid by) God stands, sure {and} unshaken, bearing this seal (inscription): The Lord knows those who are His, and, Let everyone who names [himself by] the name of the Lord give up all iniquity {and} stand aloof from it.

There is no need to re-seal us!

Rev 7:2 Then I saw a second angel coming up from the east (the rising of the sun) and carrying the seal of the living God. And with a loud voice he called out to the four angels who had been given authority {and} power to injure earth and sea,
Rev 7:3 Saying, Harm neither the earth nor the sea nor the trees, until we have sealed the bond servants of our God upon their foreheads.
Rev 7:4 And [then] I heard how many were sealed (marked) out of every tribe of the sons of Israel: there were 144,000.

Now, I am not a Jew, or at least I haven't found it in my genealogy. And I am a believer. Therefore, I am sealed already. And I have nothing to fear. Not God's wrath or the things that are coming upon the face of the whole earth.

Yes, there will be trying times and we may even have to die for our faith. But then again, even if we aren't entering the trib, there is no guarantee that I still won't be asked to die for my faith. Already, my life has been threatened because I am a Christian. I've had guns shot at me, fists in my face, etc, because I am a Chritsian. So, I reckon I've had some practice in that area. I know what to expect.

I was tortured as a child, and God brought me through that to His saving grace. All man can do now is send me home, but not until God's appointed time. :)

Steph

quiet dove
Jan 19th 2009, 09:48 PM
I surely hope you aren't adding a trumpet to the book of Revelation! :o

No, I said nothing about any extra trumpets. I simply explained that a trumpet of judgment and a trumpet of gathering were not the same trumpet or even the same trumpet sound. Something that is supported in scripture
1Co 14:7 Even things without life, whether flute or harp, when they make a sound, unless they make a distinction in the sounds, how will it be known what is piped or played?


I think, that most people have this misconception about what goes on during this time.

First, Believers are sealed unto the day of redemption.

There is no need to re-seal us!I don't know what misconception you are referring to? And I agree, we are sealed and there is no reason to re-seal us. I'm sorry, I dont understand what point you are making here in terms of my post. :)


Now, I am not a Jew, or at least I haven't found it in my genealogy. And I am a believer. Therefore, I am sealed already. And I have nothing to fear. Not God's wrath or the things that are coming upon the face of the whole earth.I agree, all men can do is kill us and God's wrath is not something we are destined too.


Yes, there will be trying times and we may even have to die for our faith. But then again, even if we aren't entering the trib, there is no guarantee that I still won't be asked to die for my faith. Already, my life has been threatened because I am a Christian. I've had guns shot at me, fists in my face, etc, because I am a Chritsian. So, I reckon I've had some practice in that area. I know what to expect.

I was tortured as a child, and God brought me through that to His saving grace. All man can do now is send me home, but not until God's appointed time. :)

Steph
I am sorry that you endured tortured, I say this very sincerely. When I pray for those already suffering persecution I pray all that more fervently for the rapture to happen. Though my life is peaceful, and I am not stupid enough to desire persection, though it may still yet come, I desire for those already suffering to be delivered from their tormentors.

And just for the record, I have never said that there being a pre trib rapture equated to Christians not suffering and even dieing for their faith. I have said that God's wrath is not what we are destined to thus He will remove us, just as He did Lot and Noah, before His judgment falls. Though Satan's persecution and God's wrath, may, in appearance and the suffering caused, appear similar, I have no doubt that God's wrath is much more to be feared, be it in this physical realm, and/or (and more certainly to be feared) in the eternal.

DIZZY
Jan 19th 2009, 09:51 PM
Do we need to put fear into people, God protects and saves us no matter what stage of Bible history we are in.

Raybob
Jan 19th 2009, 10:39 PM
In Revelation a "seventh" trumpet is blown, the seventh in a series of judgments. Scripture supports that each type or signal of a trumpet is distinct, so the people know what it means. A trumpet sound to gather the people and a trumpet of judgment would not be the same sound, series, and certainly not the same trumpet. "Seventh" in a series of judgment and "last" in calling to gather a group are not said to be the same trumpet.

You also said,
The first four seals, along with the rest can only be opened by the One who has the right to judgment, Jesus. The judgment of the seals is upon those who have rejected Him. However, in His mercy, any one who turns to Him will be saved, but they will also most likely be martyred, thus the ones under the alter.

Why would you mention "judgment" with seals and trumpets? Revelation doesn't begin speaking of "judgment" until chapter 14 after the seals and trumpets are mentioned. The "judgment" is found in the vials of wrath.

Raybob

Raybob
Jan 19th 2009, 10:41 PM
they are i agree and they could, but if i am wrong let me know cause i havent studied the pre trib rapture in years, but according to that theology isnt the trib period for jews to be saved? for the returning of them to israel, dont they believe this is the promise? that the jews are gonna be saved during the 7 year churchless trib?

If that theory were true, then we are in the tribulation now. I'm saved but I'm at least half Jewish by heredity. My grandfather went to Hebrew Union College studying to be a rabbi until WWII broke out.

Raybob

quiet dove
Jan 20th 2009, 03:17 AM
You also said,

Why would you mention "judgment" with seals and trumpets? Revelation doesn't begin speaking of "judgment" until chapter 14 after the seals and trumpets are mentioned. The "judgment" is found in the vials of wrath.

Raybob

Revelation mentions judgment at the fifth seal, and from the entire context of the seals, they are all judgment.

Rev 6:16 and said to the mountains and rocks, "Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! 17 For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?"

And if the Bride is still here, then Jesus is unleashing wrath on His Bride.

Raybob
Jan 20th 2009, 03:48 AM
Revelation mentions judgment at the fifth seal, and from the entire context of the seals, they are all judgment.

Rev 6:16 and said to the mountains and rocks, "Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! 17 For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?"

And if the Bride is still here, then Jesus is unleashing wrath on His Bride.

This is a quote of unbelievers (not understanding God's judgment) wanting to hide from God speaking of His wrath but not mentioning a thing about any "judgment".

Revelation mentions "judgment" much later.

Rev 14:7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.

Rev 15:4 Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? for thou only art holy: for all nations shall come and worship before thee; for thy judgments are made manifest.

Rev 16:7 And I heard another out of the altar say, Even so, Lord God Almighty, true and righteous are thy judgments.

Rev 17:1 And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters:

Rev 18:10 Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Alas, alas, that great city Babylon, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come.

Rev 19:2 For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.

quiet dove
Jan 20th 2009, 03:55 AM
This is a quote of unbelievers (not understanding God's judgment) wanting to hide from God speaking of His wrath but not mentioning a thing about any "judgment".

Revelation mentions "judgment" much later.

Rev 14:7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.

Rev 15:4 Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? for thou only art holy: for all nations shall come and worship before thee; for thy judgments are made manifest.

Rev 16:7 And I heard another out of the altar say, Even so, Lord God Almighty, true and righteous are thy judgments.

Rev 17:1 And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters:

Rev 18:10 Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Alas, alas, that great city Babylon, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come.

Rev 19:2 For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.

Yes, the unbelievers are hiding, from the wrath (judgment) of the Lamb. Hiding on the earth, where His judgment is falling upon them.

possumliving
Jan 23rd 2009, 07:12 AM
Sorry, the point I was trying to make and obviously failed at is:

1. The tribulation is just that, tribulation. It has two different types of actions: Judgment and Wrath.

2. Most people try to argue that the Church won't be there during the trib because only the 144,000 are sealed.

During all of that Judgment and Wrath those that are sealed do not incur either. Because the Judgment of the Household of God began during Bible times and has continued and will continue until He returns or the apostasy is fulfilled (2 Thess. 2) The judgement of those who do not believe is delusion so that by the time you get to Revelation they are those whom God says "still did not repent".

There is also another type of Judgement spoken of and that is in Romans 1. The judgement for idolatry is homosexuality.

So, there's already a bunch of judging going on...people are deluded into believing what is false and I honestly don't think those people can ever see the truth. That is those that confess to be Christians but are not according to the 2 Thess. passage.

Now the wrath...that's a totally different story! The things that will happen to those that refuse to repent are horrible things and yet I don't see any of that happening to the Jews who were sealed. Do you? So where is the argument for being taken before the tribulation because of the wrath of God?

And as for Noah? He didn't escape (like beam me up Scotty), God kept him safe in the midst of the flood and he rose above it. He didn't remove him from the earth. The storm was going on all around him.

David Taylor
Jan 23rd 2009, 12:37 PM
Yes, the unbelievers are hiding, from the wrath (judgment) of the Lamb. Hiding on the earth, where His judgment is falling upon them.

Kinda like how the plagues of God's wrath poured out upon the wicked Egyptians didn't harm Moses the children of God within their midst?

quiet dove
Jan 23rd 2009, 07:03 PM
Kinda like how the plagues of God's wrath poured out upon the wicked Egyptians didn't harm Moses the children of God within their midst?

Yes, but unlike Pharoah, (AC) will be chopping off believers heads and being given the ability to make war upon them and over take them. Believers suffering Satan's wrath is not believers suffering or being protected from Gods. It is clear believers suffer during that time so the comparison to Pharaoh could only apply to believers if they don't suffer either God or Satan's wrath.

possumliving
Jan 23rd 2009, 11:44 PM
Yes, but unlike Pharoah chopping off Iraelites heads and being given the ability to make war upon them and over take them.

I didn't realize that Pharoah beheaded people but I do know that some of us will be and they will make war against us.

Rev 20:4 Then I saw thrones, and sitting on them were those to whom authority to act as judges {and} to pass sentence was entrusted. Also I saw the souls of those who had been slain with axes [beheaded] for their witnessing to Jesus and [for preaching and testifying] for the Word of God, and who had refused to pay homage to the beast or his statue and had not accepted his mark {or} permitted it to be stamped on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived again and ruled with Christ (the Messiah) a thousand years.
Rev 20:5 The remainder of the dead were not restored to life again until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection.
Rev 20:6 Blessed (happy, to be envied) and holy (spiritually whole, of unimpaired innocence and proved virtue) is the person who takes part (shares) in the first resurrection! Over them the second death exerts no power {or} authority, but they shall be ministers of God and of Christ (the Messiah), and they shall rule along with Him a thousand years.


Rev 13:7 He was further permitted to wage war on God's holy people (the saints) and to overcome them. And power was given him to extend his authority over every tribe and people and tongue and nation,
Rev 13:8 And all the inhabitants of the earth will fall down in adoration {and} pay him homage, everyone whose name has not been recorded in the Book of Life of the Lamb that was slain [in sacrifice] from the foundation of the world.

quiet dove
Jan 24th 2009, 03:22 AM
I didn't realize that Pharoah beheaded people but I do know that some of us will be and they will make war against us.

Rev 20:4 Then I saw thrones, and sitting on them were those to whom authority to act as judges {and} to pass sentence was entrusted. Also I saw the souls of those who had been slain with axes [beheaded] for their witnessing to Jesus and [for preaching and testifying] for the Word of God, and who had refused to pay homage to the beast or his statue and had not accepted his mark {or} permitted it to be stamped on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived again and ruled with Christ (the Messiah) a thousand years.
Rev 20:5 The remainder of the dead were not restored to life again until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection.
Rev 20:6 Blessed (happy, to be envied) and holy (spiritually whole, of unimpaired innocence and proved virtue) is the person who takes part (shares) in the first resurrection! Over them the second death exerts no power {or} authority, but they shall be ministers of God and of Christ (the Messiah), and they shall rule along with Him a thousand years.


Rev 13:7 He was further permitted to wage war on God's holy people (the saints) and to overcome them. And power was given him to extend his authority over every tribe and people and tongue and nation,
Rev 13:8 And all the inhabitants of the earth will fall down in adoration {and} pay him homage, everyone whose name has not been recorded in the Book of Life of the Lamb that was slain [in sacrifice] from the foundation of the world.

Pharaoh didn't behead people, not that I know of. I think I should have stated it like this

Yes, but unlike Pharoah, he(AC) will be chopping off believers heads and being given the ability to make war upon them and over take them.

Sorry, typo, sorta, thought-o. I was not typing what I was thinking, fingers were not connected to brain, apparently.:lol:

possumliving
Jan 24th 2009, 07:23 AM
Ah...one of those short circuits! I understand completely! LOL

Steph

Adarian
Jan 24th 2009, 09:03 AM
Hi folks,
There seems to be yet a great deal of disagreement among believers on the timing of the "rapture".
Its easy. Observe from the twentieth chapter of Revelation posted above, that there will be only two resurrections: The first for the righteous who died faithful to God either waiting for the appearance of Christ, or born again after His resurrection. All others will face resurrection at the end of the millennial rule, and stand condemned. From 1Thessalonians 4:13-17 we learn that the first resurrection must occur immediately before the church is removed from the earth. Back to Revelation 20, and we see that among those who take part in the first resurrection are those who were killed for refusing to worship the beast, or take his mark or the number of his name. These two passages prove conclusively that the gathering of the saints to Christ cannot occur before the great tribulation. The possibility of pre-trib rapture does not exist.

I am convinced that the faith of many will be destroyed when the killing begins and the church is still on the earth.

quiet dove
Jan 24th 2009, 06:01 PM
I am convinced that the faith of many will be destroyed when the killing begins and the church is still on the earth.

The killing began 2000 years ago. Just depends on where you live, but those living where the killing is going on are not giving up their faith.

One either has faith or not, the only difference in the places of freedom and the places of killing, is the places of killing either have real faith, or no faith. In the places of freedom there is fake faith, fake faith may be weeded out with killing, but not real faith.

Bick
Jan 26th 2009, 07:14 AM
Do we need to put fear into people, God protects and saves us no matter what stage of Bible history we are in.

MY COMMENTS: Brethren, members of the Body of Christ, I appeal to you to study the Scriptures.

In 2 Thes.2:1ff, Paul is beseeching the Thessalonian Church to not be disturbed as if the Day of the Lord was at hand.

He reminds them of our hope of the coming of the Lord Jesus Christ, and our being gathered unto him. This presence of the Lord and the secret catching away of the Body of Christ, Paul had written them in his first letter.

In verse 3: "Let no man deceive you by any means, for that [day shall not come], except there come a falling away (departure--literal meaning from the Greek) first.

Just as Paul wrote in verse 1, it is the coming for them by the presence of the Lord in the air, that is our hope. And when we have departed, then the man of sin will be revealed.

Again, in verse 5, Paul reminds them of this.

And, to me, it is the church/body which is restraining the revealing of the man of sin (anti-christ).

As a final point, the church/body when caught-up to the heavenlies, will enjoy all the spiritual blessings God has prepared, as sons, heirs of God and joint-heirs with Christ. We will be witnesses of the manifold wisdom of God through Christ Jesus, to the principalities and powers in the heavenlies.

Our position will not be on the earth during the millennium.

The Messianic Kingdom is what has been the hope of Israel for centuries.
And God will keep his promises, for Messiah Jesus will establish his kingdom, with believing remnant of Israel as his bride.

Israel will be the head of the nations, and as royal priest will lead the nations to God.

David Taylor
Jan 26th 2009, 02:55 PM
Yes, but unlike Pharoah, (AC) will be chopping off believers heads and being given the ability to make war upon them and over take them.

Kinda like how early Roman emperors of the 100-300s, Saladins armies in the 1100s, the RCC inquisitions of the 13th century, and the Chinese Revolution, Rwanda Massacres, and Stalin's religion purgings of the last few centuries were lopping off believers heads, feeding them to lions, and making much war with them and overtaking many of them too?

Again, Christians both suffer persecution, and die for their faith; and Christians also are divinely protected through persecutions by the Lord as a testimony for their faith. According to Paul, we know that some Christians will be alive and remain unto the 2nd Advent; so in the midst of the persecution in the final days, there will be perserverence and protection in the midst of martyrdom.

David Taylor
Jan 26th 2009, 03:12 PM
Our position will not be on the earth during the millennium.

The Messianic Kingdom is what has been the hope of Israel for centuries.
And God will keep his promises, for Messiah Jesus will establish his kingdom, with believing remnant of Israel as his bride.



So you have the rapture occuring, and all of the NT Christians being united with Christ....

....then then you have Christ spending a thousand years on Earth away from the just-rapture NT Christians with Israel only, and quote: "our position will not be on the earth" with Christ for that thousand year period????

How about cutting out the racial segregation, and just allowing all of God's people, Israeli believers and Gentile believers, to be united with Him together forever?

Raybob
Jan 26th 2009, 06:43 PM
MY COMMENTS: Brethren, members of the Body of Christ, I appeal to you to study the Scriptures.

In 2 Thes.2:1ff, Paul is beseeching the Thessalonian Church to not be disturbed as if the Day of the Lord was at hand.

He reminds them of our hope of the coming of the Lord Jesus Christ, and our being gathered unto him. This presence of the Lord and the secret catching away of the Body of Christ, Paul had written them in his first letter.

In verse 3: "Let no man deceive you by any means, for that [day shall not come], except there come a falling away (departure--literal meaning from the Greek) first.


So Paul tells us that our gathering unto Him won't happen until after our gathering unto Him? That isn't what Paul said. He said our gathering unto Him won't happen until there is a "falling away" (apostasy in the Greek) and that "man of sin" is revealed. These happen before our gathering unto Him.

2Th 2:1-4 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, (2) That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. (3) Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; (4) Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

Raybob

quiet dove
Jan 26th 2009, 09:36 PM
Kinda like how early Roman emperors of the 100-300s, Saladins armies in the 1100s, the RCC inquisitions of the 13th century, and the Chinese Revolution, Rwanda Massacres, and Stalin's religion purgings of the last few centuries were lopping off believers heads, feeding them to lions, and making much war with them and overtaking many of them too?

Again, Christians both suffer persecution, and die for their faith; and Christians also are divinely protected through persecutions by the Lord as a testimony for their faith. According to Paul, we know that some Christians will be alive and remain unto the 2nd Advent; so in the midst of the persecution in the final days, there will be perserverence and protection in the midst of martyrdom.

None of those times in history was God pouring His wrath upon the earth and when he did, He removed His own. I am not sure why Satan's persecution of the saints, reguardless of when, and God's wrath are lumped into one pile. God's wrath is completely avoidable for the unjust who turns to Christ, Satans wrath upon the just, is not always avoidable for the just.

And since there are so many Christians who have lived and died without suffering any persecution at all, thats not fair either? And as I have said many times, if the rapture happened tonight, there is no need for anyone to not be taken except they made the decision to reject Christ.

Jude
Jan 26th 2009, 10:52 PM
Kinda like how the plagues of God's wrath poured out upon the wicked Egyptians didn't harm Moses the children of God within their midst?

http://www.greaterthings.com/Ridenhour/general/Goshen.htm

Quite right they lived in the land of Goshen.

Jude

http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u298/hogndog/twocents.gif

crush
Jan 27th 2009, 12:51 AM
MY COMMENTS: Brethren, members of the Body of Christ, I appeal to you to study the Scriptures.
In verse 3: "Let no man deceive you by any means, for that [day shall not come], except there come a falling away (departure--literal meaning from the Greek) first.

I've never seen "apostasia" translated in the way you have here, and applied to a rapture of believers. Can you explain your thought process a little more please?

G646
ἀποστασία
apostasia
ap-os-tas-ee'-ah
Feminine of the same as G647; defection from truth (properly the state), (“apostasy”): - falling away, forsake.

possumliving
Jan 27th 2009, 05:41 AM
MY COMMENTS: Brethren, members of the Body of Christ, I appeal to you to study the Scriptures.

In 2 Thes.2:1ff, Paul is beseeching the Thessalonian Church to not be disturbed as if the Day of the Lord was at hand.

He reminds them of our hope of the coming of the Lord Jesus Christ, and our being gathered unto him. This presence of the Lord and the secret catching away of the Body of Christ, Paul had written them in his first letter.

In verse 3: "Let no man deceive you by any means, for that [day shall not come], except there come a falling away (departure--literal meaning from the Greek) first.

Just as Paul wrote in verse 1, it is the coming for them by the presence of the Lord in the air, that is our hope. And when we have departed, then the man of sin will be revealed.

Again, in verse 5, Paul reminds them of this.

And, to me, it is the church/body which is restraining the revealing of the man of sin (anti-christ).

As a final point, the church/body when caught-up to the heavenlies, will enjoy all the spiritual blessings God has prepared, as sons, heirs of God and joint-heirs with Christ. We will be witnesses of the manifold wisdom of God through Christ Jesus, to the principalities and powers in the heavenlies.

Our position will not be on the earth during the millennium.

The Messianic Kingdom is what has been the hope of Israel for centuries.
And God will keep his promises, for Messiah Jesus will establish his kingdom, with believing remnant of Israel as his bride.

Israel will be the head of the nations, and as royal priest will lead the nations to God.

The Greek word for falling here is apostasia however your translation as "departure" is skewed.

#646 means defection from truth (properly the state) ["apostasy"]:--falling away, forsake.

The falling away means to fall away from the truth.

Here's the Amplified translation and it's sorta hard to mangle that.

2 Thess 2:1 BUT RELATIVE to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ (the Messiah) and our gathering together to [meet] Him, we beg you, brethren,
2 Thess 2:2 Not to allow your minds to be quickly unsettled {or} disturbed or kept excited {or} alarmed, whether it be by some [pretended] revelation of [the] Spirit or by word or by letter [alleged to be] from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has [already] arrived {and} is here.
2 Thess 2:3 Let no one deceive {or} beguile you in any way, for that day will not come except the apostasy comes first [unless the predicted great falling away of those who have professed to be Christians has come], and the man of lawlessness (sin) is revealed, who is the son of doom (of perdition),
2 Thess 2:4 Who opposes and exalts himself so proudly {and} insolently against {and} over all that is called God or that is worshiped, [even to his actually] taking his seat in the temple of God, proclaiming that he himself is God.
2 Thess 2:5 Do you not recollect that when I was still with you, I told you these things?
2 Thess 2:6 And now you know what is restraining him [from being revealed at this time]; it is so that he may be manifested (revealed) in his own [appointed] time.

What is restraining him. It doesn't say, "Him" as in capital letter, diety. The paragraph is referring to the antichrist or son of perdition. So the apostasy has to come first, then the Antichrist.

2 Thess 2:7 For the mystery of lawlessness (that hidden principle of rebellion against constituted authority) is already at work in the world, [but it is] restrained only until he who restrains is taken out of the way.
2 Thess 2:8 And then the lawless one (the antichrist) will be revealed and the Lord Jesus will slay him with the breath of His mouth and bring him to an end by His appearing at His coming.

he who restrains is still a "he", the church is always referred to as "her". So, it is not referring to the church either.

If it were referring to the Holy Spirit, there still wouldn't be a "he" but a "He" in deference to being the Spirit of God.

If it were the Holy Spirit, then I do believe Paul would have stated that, but he doesn't.

And as your statement about "royal priest", Jesus is our High Priest and King. He isn't going to nominate or allow anybody else to take His glory away from him.

Steph

possumliving
Jan 27th 2009, 05:57 AM
None of those times in history was God pouring His wrath upon the earth and when he did, He removed His own. I am not sure why Satan's persecution of the saints, reguardless of when, and God's wrath are lumped into one pile. God's wrath is completely avoidable for the unjust who turns to Christ, Satans wrath upon the just, is not always avoidable for the just.

And since there are so many Christians who have lived and died without suffering any persecution at all, thats not fair either? And as I have said many times, if the rapture happened tonight, there is no need for anyone to not be taken except they made the decision to reject Christ.

I cannot agree with you Quiet Dove. Read Ezekiel chapters 6-9. There is definitely wrath and it is made plain that it is wrath. Those who were saved were not removed, they had marks put on their forheads, just as we are marked and the 144,000 will be marked.

Ezek 6:12 He who is far off shall die of the pestilence, and he that is near shall fall by the sword, and he who remains and is preserved shall die by the famine. Thus will I accomplish My wrath upon them.

Ezek 8:18 Therefore I will deal in wrath; My eye will not spare, nor will I have pity; and though they cry in My ears with a loud voice, yet will I not hear them.

Ezek 9:1 [THE SPIRIT] cried in my ears [in the vision] with a loud voice, saying, Cause those to draw near who have charge over the city [as executioners], every man with his destroying weapon in his hand.
Ezek 9:2 And behold, six men came from the direction of the Upper Gate, which faces north, every man with his battle-ax in his hand; and one man among them was clothed in linen, with a writer's ink bottle at his side. And they went in and stood beside the bronze altar.
Ezek 9:3 And the glory of the God of Israel [the Shekinah, cloud] had gone up from the cherubim upon which it had rested to [stand above] the threshold of the [Lord's] house. And [the Lord] called to the man clothed with linen, who had the writer's ink bottle at his side.
Ezek 9:4 And the Lord said to him, Go through the midst of the city, through the midst of Jerusalem, and set a mark upon the foreheads of the men who sigh and groan over all the abominations that are committed in the midst of it.
Ezek 9:5 And to the others He said in my hearing, Follow [the man with the ink bottle] through the city and smite; let not your eye spare, neither have any pity.
Ezek 9:6 Slay outright the elderly, the young man and the virgin, the infant and the women; but do not touch {or} go near anyone on whom is the mark. Begin at My sanctuary. So they began with the old men who were in front of the temple [who did not have the Lord's mark on their foreheads].
Ezek 9:7 And He said to [the executioners], Defile the temple and fill its courts with the slain. Go forth! And they went forth and slew in the city.
Ezek 9:8 And while they were slaying them and I was left, I fell upon my face and cried, Ah, Lord God! Will You destroy all that is left of Israel in Your pouring out of Your wrath {and} indignation upon Jerusalem?
Ezek 9:9 Then said He to me, The iniquity {and} guilt of the house of Israel and Judah are exceedingly great; the land is full of blood and the city full of injustice {and} perverseness; for they say, The Lord has forsaken the land; the Lord does not see [what we are doing].
Ezek 9:10 And as for Me, My eye will not spare, neither will I have pity, but I will recompense their wicked doings upon their own heads.
Ezek 9:11 And behold, the man clothed in linen, who had the ink bottle at his side, reported the matter, saying, I have done as You have commanded me.

Steph