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Bex4Jesus
Dec 9th 2008, 08:51 PM
Okay I am trying to focus on one thing at a time now. Someone in the "women" thread said that I was questioning God because I was questioning why women were treated so poorly in the Bible. But that sorts implies that God WANTED women to be treated poorly. Which I don't think God did!! Unless God ordered that women be treatedly badly, how is it wrong to complain about it??

Anyways, does God or Jesus say anywhere in the Bible that women should be treated worse than men?? Does God endorse the double standards of women must be pure but men can marry many wives, or the "magic potion" test I talked about, or the "testing whether a women is a virgin by looking at the sheets after the wedding night" or any of that stuff?

Does God or Jesus specifically say anywhere that women cannot speak in church or teach men?

Does God or Jesus specifically say anywhere that women should submit to their husbands?

Or are all those things written by people, but not said by God or Jesus?

I would appreciate any guidance! I'm listening, I promise! :D

Friend of I AM
Dec 9th 2008, 09:05 PM
Okay I am trying to focus on one thing at a time now. Someone in the "women" thread said that I was questioning God because I was questioning why women were treated so poorly in the Bible. But that sorts implies that God WANTED women to be treated poorly. Which I don't think God did!! Unless God ordered that women be treatedly badly, how is it wrong to complain about it??

Anyways, does God or Jesus say anywhere in the Bible that women should be treated worse than men?? Does God endorse the double standards of women must be pure but men can marry many wives, or the "magic potion" test I talked about, or the "testing whether a women is a virgin by looking at the sheets after the wedding night" or any of that stuff?

Does God or Jesus specifically say anywhere that women cannot speak in church or teach men?

Does God or Jesus specifically say anywhere that women should submit to their husbands?

Or are all those things written by people, but not said by God or Jesus?

I would appreciate any guidance! I'm listening, I promise! :D


Acts 9:3-15
And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?
And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.
And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do.
And the men which journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice, but seeing no man.
And Saul arose from the earth; and when his eyes were opened, he saw no man: but they led him by the hand, and brought him into Damascus.
And he was three days without sight, and neither did eat nor drink.
And there was a certain disciple at Damascus, named Ananias; and to him said the Lord in a vision, Ananias. And he said, Behold, I am here, Lord.
And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the street which is called Straight, and enquire in the house of Judas for one called Saul, of Tarsus: for, behold, he prayeth,
And hath seen in a vision a man named Ananias coming in, and putting his hand on him, that he might receive his sight.
Then Ananias answered, Lord, I have heard by many of this man, how much evil he hath done to thy saints at Jerusalem:
And here he hath authority from the chief priests to bind all that call on thy name. But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:

It doesn't state anywhere in the bible that women should be treated worse than men. It does give guidelines for each though as well as to their various roles. The Apostle Paul gives a Holy Spirit inspired teaching regarding these roles within his epistles to the Corinthians.

kenrank
Dec 9th 2008, 09:10 PM
Okay I am trying to focus on one thing at a time now. Someone in the "women" thread said that I was questioning God because I was questioning why women were treated so poorly in the Bible. But that sorts implies that God WANTED women to be treated poorly. Which I don't think God did!! Unless God ordered that women be treatedly badly, how is it wrong to complain about it??

Anyways, does God or Jesus say anywhere in the Bible that women should be treated worse than men?? Does God endorse the double standards of women must be pure but men can marry many wives, or the "magic potion" test I talked about, or the "testing whether a women is a virgin by looking at the sheets after the wedding night" or any of that stuff?

Does God or Jesus specifically say anywhere that women cannot speak in church or teach men?

Does God or Jesus specifically say anywhere that women should submit to their husbands?

Or are all those things written by people, but not said by God or Jesus?

I would appreciate any guidance! I'm listening, I promise! :D

Ah my friend Bex...still hunting them pesky men I see? ;)

People come away with many silly notions when intrepreting scripture. They develope practices, cultures, traditions. God is under absolutely no obligation validate man's silly notions and practices.

With that said, there is a reason why we do not have two Presidents. If they had differing ideological stands, nothing would get done. (Which under the current conditions, might be a good thing!) A classroom doesn't have two teachers, one preacher preaches at a time, one doctor ultimately makes a health decision for you. There are exceptions...but you should be able to get the gist of what I am saying.

We serve one God, there is not room for two. He is the husband, we the bride. So we are the family/wife/bride and He is the husband, the head of the spiritual household. In our own lives there cannot be two heads of a household. So using the same model God gives us by example, and according to his will, the man is the head of the house.

This is not degrading to woman, for we are commanded to leave our mother and father and cleave to our wife. She completes the man....my wife completes me! I am not her boss...in fact, we share household duties...I make half the mess, I should be able to clean half the house. We are one flesh in the eye of God...the ONLY eye that matters. So if HE sees me and my wife...the lovely and gracious Tiffany...as one flesh, then indeed, that is what we are.

So if past cultures treated woman as second class citizens...does not mean God validates that action. If man kept concubines in times past...it may have been "allowed" but it doesn't mean it is validated. The scripture clearly and consistently, from Adam on, paints the husband and wife as one flesh. A command to >>ME<< to leave my parents and cleave to my wife. I obeyed...after all...she is lovely and gracious!

So chin up Bex...and study hard. Get through your school without the hassle, hangups, and BAGAGE.....a boyfriend can bring. When you are done, and settled...then set out through PRAYER and find the Mr. Bex that understands that a woman should be a treasure and not treated as property!

Peace.
Ken

Bex4Jesus
Dec 9th 2008, 09:11 PM
Acts 9:3-15
And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?
And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.
And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do.
And the men which journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice, but seeing no man.
And Saul arose from the earth; and when his eyes were opened, he saw no man: but they led him by the hand, and brought him into Damascus.
And he was three days without sight, and neither did eat nor drink.
And there was a certain disciple at Damascus, named Ananias; and to him said the Lord in a vision, Ananias. And he said, Behold, I am here, Lord.
And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the street which is called Straight, and enquire in the house of Judas for one called Saul, of Tarsus: for, behold, he prayeth,
And hath seen in a vision a man named Ananias coming in, and putting his hand on him, that he might receive his sight.
Then Ananias answered, Lord, I have heard by many of this man, how much evil he hath done to thy saints at Jerusalem:
And here he hath authority from the chief priests to bind all that call on thy name. But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:

It doesn't state anywhere in the bible that women should be treated worse than men. It does give guidelines for each though as well as to their various roles. The Apostle Paul gives a Holy Spirit inspired teaching regarding these roles within his epistles to the Corinthians.

I know some of the stuff Paul writes in Timothy I don't agree with - but you are saying God said Paul speaks for God?

Steve M
Dec 9th 2008, 09:15 PM
I know some of the stuff Paul writes in Timothy I don't agree with - but you are saying God said Paul speaks for God?
This is said both in Acts, and in Peter. (our brother Paul writes many things hard to understand, which some twist to their own destruction, as they do the other scriptures)

To reject Paul you must reject just about all of the New Testament out of hand as uninspired and untrustworthy.

Bex4Jesus
Dec 9th 2008, 09:23 PM
This is said both in Acts, and in Peter. (our brother Paul writes many things hard to understand, which some twist to their own destruction, as they do the other scriptures)

To reject Paul you must reject just about all of the New Testament out of hand as uninspired and untrustworthy.

So you disagree with giving more importance to things Jesus and God did/said themselves?

keck553
Dec 9th 2008, 09:25 PM
No. Women were treated that way because of hardened hearts (according to Jesus).

In the Creation God said only one thing was not good. Adam was alone. He made a suitable helper, that means physically, spiritually and soulfully. Together Adam and Eve completed the image God intended. They were equal, one.

God gave His instructions to Adam, making him priest. Adam's failure to teach Eve, combined with both thier disobedience to God led to them being less than perfect suitable helpers for each other.

Yet God has a plan to bring us back to that Gan-Eden relationship, and that includes our interpersonal relationships.

Why do you think Jesus had so many female disciples? Because He treated them as His creations, with love and understanding. He knew their hearts and the hole left in thier lives (to be loved) by the fall of man. Notice Paul doesn't have to tell women to love their husbands.

Yet Jesus made a way for a married couple to enjoy much of the interpersonal Gan-Eden relationship. He taught us that love requires the entailments of our souls to be binding, or it is not love at all.

Steve M
Dec 9th 2008, 09:30 PM
So you disagree with giving more importance to things Jesus and God did/said themselves?
Yes.

I can leave it at that, right?

Wait, no, I think I want to continue.

Yes, because that dishonors Jesus' words about not being able to give all the message to His disciples at that time.

And His words about Paul being His chosen vessel.

And His promises to His Apostles to remind them of all He told them.

Either they had the authority from Him to finish His work and leave us a Bible--or we can't trust any of it. Can we trust gospels written by the same men who were busy standing shoulder to shoulder with Paul? The Gospel of Luke, written presumably by the author of Acts, which gives credence to Paul?

When you get done playing fast and loose with the words of Paul--how much New Testament do you have left?

I actually would love to give double weight to everything Jesus said, and think that doing so would not change the content of the Bible one whit because it all stands in perfect agreement.

Yeah, I have to go home now. I'll check this thread again tomorrow.

Friend of I AM
Dec 9th 2008, 09:36 PM
I know some of the stuff Paul writes in Timothy I don't agree with - but you are saying God said Paul speaks for God?

Ephesians 3:1-12

Paul the Preacher to the Gentiles

For this reason I, Paul, the prisoner of Christ Jesus for the sake of you Gentiles—

Surely you have heard about the administration of God's grace that was given to me for you, that is, the mystery made known to me by revelation, as I have already written briefly. In reading this, then, you will be able to understand my insight into the mystery of Christ, which was not made known to men in other generations as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to God's holy apostles and prophets. This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus. I became a servant of this gospel by the gift of God's grace given me through the working of his power. Although I am less than the least of all God's people, this grace was given me: to preach to the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ, and to make plain to everyone the administration of this mystery, which for ages past was kept hidden in God, who created all things. His intent was that now, through the church, the manifold wisdom of God should be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly realms, according to his eternal purpose which he accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord. In him and through faith in him we may approach God with freedom and confidence.

Paul was told to preach to the Gentiles by Jesus. We can see that in Acts 9. I'll admit I do think some of Paul's epistles represent his own opinion...particularly regarding marriage, what one should wear in Church, etc...some of these have to do with the way in which the culture was during the time. I don't think there is anything inherent in his epistles that denotes treating women as second class citizens though. He does make reference of men and women's roles within the church. A lot of this I'll admit has been taken out of context by many nowadays..and used as a way to oppress women. I think this is where a lot of the frustration lies..men's misinterpretations and misrepresentations of the word in order to make themselves feel superior. We see this prevelant nowadays as well regarding other aspects of Paul's Epistles.

Bex4Jesus
Dec 9th 2008, 09:38 PM
Yes.

I can leave it at that, right?

Wait, no, I think I want to continue.

Yes, because that dishonors Jesus' words about not being able to give all the message to His disciples at that time.

And His words about Paul being His chosen vessel.

And His promises to His Apostles to remind them of all He told them.

Either they had the authority from Him to finish His work and leave us a Bible--or we can't trust any of it. Can we trust gospels written by the same men who were busy standing shoulder to shoulder with Paul? The Gospel of Luke, written presumably by the author of Acts, which gives credence to Paul?

When you get done playing fast and loose with the words of Paul--how much New Testament do you have left?

I actually would love to give double weight to everything Jesus said, and think that doing so would not change the content of the Bible one whit because it all stands in perfect agreement.

Yeah, I have to go home now. I'll check this thread again tomorrow.

Sorry if I made you angry! I promise I didn't mean to. I was just asking a question. :(

And I didn't say that part in bold. Who did? I'm confused.

kenrank
Dec 9th 2008, 10:05 PM
This is said both in Acts, and in Peter. (our brother Paul writes many things hard to understand, which some twist to their own destruction, as they do the other scriptures)

To reject Paul you must reject just about all of the New Testament out of hand as uninspired and untrustworthy.

Paul is misunderstood. One can read him and keep Torah, another can read him and say grace only. I would say, that while I agree that without Paul the NT loses much weight...he spends most of his time quoting the OT, albeit in his own way sometimes...and it would lose some weight with Paul as well.

Peace.
Ken

The Parson
Dec 9th 2008, 11:51 PM
Yep, I'd say Paul is misunderstood many times for no good reason actually. Does this mean he wasn't writing/speaking by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit? If you think he wasn't inspired by God to write what he wrote, probably best to take a majority of the New Testament and place on the same shelf as Mobey Dick or Alice in Wonderland.

And does it mean he was writing with a mean spirit? No, matter of fact if we are to consider his writings as scripture then the following verse applies: Hebrews 4:11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief. 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Amazingly enough, I believe Paul wrote this too. So what really is the problem here that can't be understood.