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kenrank
Dec 11th 2008, 12:36 PM
I thought I would post about food restrictions and get some viewpoints.

The first restriction is found in Gen. 9:4

Gen 9:4 But flesh with the life thereof, which is the blood thereof, shall ye not eat.

This gets repeated in Lev. 17:14. But we find the same restriction in a letter written to Gentiles in Acts 15.

Act 15:29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.

My question is, why do many Christians not give a second thought to eating say, a rare steak...or meat that has not been properly killed?

Peace.
Ken

Studyin'2Show
Dec 11th 2008, 12:54 PM
Interesting point, Ken. I must admit it's something I hadn't really thought out. I guess people envision people drinking blood or some vile thing. Truthfully, wouldn't animals need to be slaughtered in a kosher fashion to truly abstain from blood? Just because something is cooked well done does not mean the blood is gone, it's just cooked. I wonder if believers would see this as a NT food restriction or not? :hmm: Something to think about.

God Bless!

Gregg
Dec 11th 2008, 12:55 PM
The juice found in meat is called sacroplasm. It is not blood. It is blood like. Sacroplasm a form of cytoplasm (an intrinsic component of every living cell).

Studyin'2Show
Dec 11th 2008, 12:57 PM
The juice found in meat is called sacroplasm. It is not blood. It is blood like. Sacroplasm a form of cytoplasm (an intrinsic component of every living cell).Thanks for the info. Does that mean that non kosher butchers bleed out the animals too?

Gregg
Dec 11th 2008, 12:58 PM
Interesting point, Ken. I must admit it's something I hadn't really thought out. I guess people envision people drinking blood or some vile thing. Truthfully, wouldn't animals need to be slaughtered in a kosher fashion to truly abstain from blood? Just because something is cooked well done does not mean the blood is gone, it's just cooked. I wonder if believers would see this as a NT food restriction or not? :hmm: Something to think about.

God Bless!

Almost all of the blood is drained at the slaughter house to aid in hygene. Blood spoils faster than sacroplasm.

kenrank
Dec 11th 2008, 01:00 PM
The juice found in meat is called sacroplasm. It is not blood. It is blood like. Sacroplasm a form of cytoplasm (an intrinsic component of every living cell).

Ah, a science guy. (I am a fledgling stay at home astronomer) I understand the juice, but the scripture specifically mentions blood. So a rare steak all red on the inside...while tender...still contains the blood.

Peace.
Ken

kenrank
Dec 11th 2008, 01:04 PM
Thanks for the info. Does that mean that non kosher butchers bleed out the animals too?

I am sure Gregg can and will answer...but I know most all butchers will hang the animal so it can bleed out...but that doesn't remove all the blood.

For example...and I don't share MY practices to say, "hey everyone, look how righteous I am!!" I am simply sharing what I do as example....anyway...last night I made pasta and meat sauce. Before I start, I soak the ground meat in water for a while, breaking all the meat up. The color of the water becomes bright pink or red, depending on how much water is in the bowl. That is the blood obviously.

I will say this....just as an experiment...if you have never soaked ground meat before using it....try it once. The first time I did I was amazed at how much better it tasted.

Peace.
Ken

Gregg
Dec 11th 2008, 01:24 PM
I thought I would post about food restrictions and get some viewpoints.

The first restriction is found in Gen. 9:4

Gen 9:4 But flesh with the life thereof, which is the blood thereof, shall ye not eat.

This gets repeated in Lev. 17:14. But we find the same restriction in a letter written to Gentiles in Acts 15.

Act 15:29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.

My question is, why do many Christians not give a second thought to eating say, a rare steak...or meat that has not been properly killed?

Peace.
Ken


Jesus declared all foods including meat, to be clean Mark 7:19. As with anything each Christian should pray for guidance as to what God would have them eat. What ever we decide to eat is acceptable to God as long as we thank him for providing it (Thessalonians 5:18). 1 Corinthians 10:31 declares: "So whatever you eat or drink or what ever you do, do it for the Glory of God."

So Brother Ken, I respect what is on your heart. For me I thank God for the occasional medium rare steak, and I am really thankful for the BBQ ribs!;)

Brother Mark
Dec 11th 2008, 01:32 PM
Thanks for the info. Does that mean that non kosher butchers bleed out the animals too?

Depending on how animals are slaughtered, the blood will drain out. We almost always drained the blood out of every animal we slaughtered. I would imagine that most animals are drained of blood when they are hung up after being killed too.

Brother Mark
Dec 11th 2008, 01:34 PM
Ah, a science guy. (I am a fledgling stay at home astronomer) I understand the juice, but the scripture specifically mentions blood. So a rare steak all red on the inside...while tender...still contains the blood.

Peace.
Ken


Ken, if that's your definition of blood, you'll never get all the blood out before you cook it. And as S2S pointed out, does cooking it mean it's no longer blood? The meat will be red regardless of how much blood you drain out of it.

Gregg
Dec 11th 2008, 01:39 PM
Ah, a science guy. (I am a fledgling stay at home astronomer) I understand the juice, but the scripture specifically mentions blood. So a rare steak all red on the inside...while tender...still contains the blood.

Peace.
Ken

A long time ago and after many years of "getting it wrong" I wanted to get it right. I started reading the Bible. When I first came to the passages that you mentioned, I felt that my diet might be wrong. After further research, I felt it was ok to be the meat eater that I am. I think I am more of a meat guy than a science guy.:D

Thank you for the original post. I enjoy the discussion as well as the trip down memory lane.

kenrank
Dec 11th 2008, 01:40 PM
Jesus declared all foods including meat, to be clean Mark 7:19. As with anything each Christian should pray for guidance as to what God would have them eat. What ever we decide to eat is acceptable to God as long as we thank him for providing it (Thessalonians 5:18). 1 Corinthians 10:31 declares: "So whatever you eat or drink or what ever you do, do it for the Glory of God."

So Brother Ken, I respect what is on your heart. For me I thank God for the occasional medium rare steak, and I am really thankful for the BBQ ribs!;)

Gregg my brother...you are welcome to eat anything you want. I did not start this thread to make anyone see things my way. Rather...I do believe there are some NT passages that are somewhat misunderstood and should be reconsidered...nothing more or less. For example, I can't tell you how many times Peter's vision has been quoted to me as saying we can eat anything we want. Peter's vision has no more to do with food that the Pharaoh's vision had to do with fat and sick cows. The 1 Tim 4 verses, I believe, are also misunderstood because the things it is talking about aren't understood by many. No indictment on anyone....just a simple lack of knowledge.

In the Tanach (OT), eating unclean food does not make one unclean. There is NO verse that claims this. Rather, it is simply said to be sin, a breaking of a command. I say that because Messiah in Mark 7:18-19 is NOT saying you can eat anything you want...it is simply saying that eating anything unclean does not make YOU unclean.(defiled) Verse 19 is (seriously) talking about...uhmmm...waste elimination. Unclean foods are purged from your body through that process...but what comes out of your MOUTH is what defiles you. (For that comes from the heart)

Go back and read it in that light and let me know if you see what I have shared. No problem if not...I still consider you a brother either way!!

Peace.
Ken

kenrank
Dec 11th 2008, 01:48 PM
Ken, if that's your definition of blood, you'll never get all the blood out before you cook it. And as S2S pointed out, does cooking it mean it's no longer blood? The meat will be red regardless of how much blood you drain out of it.

Actually, it's brown. I don't know how old you are (I am 42), but I remember when I was young we still had a local butcher shop. The meats were never red, they were reddish leaning toward brown. When we go to a local food market NOW...and it is factory sealed...it has been injected with red dye (in some markets) but also the weight of the meat is up to 30% saline. The reason is to keep the meat red...because that is what people THINK meat is supposed to look like.

You can indeed cook it all out Mark. When doing steak on a grill...the blood drips as it is being cooked down to the coals. When doing meat in a broiler...you place it on a rack over a drip pan for the same reason. Ground meat, like I said earlier, can be soaked. One addition to last nights meal....I didn't soak the meat for as long as I generally do. When I put the now lump of ground beef in the frying pan, and the weight of the meat settled....a good amount of red juice....blood...started seeping out all sides. I simply put it back under the water and got it out.

Peace.
Ken

kenrank
Dec 11th 2008, 01:50 PM
Depending on how animals are slaughtered, the blood will drain out. We almost always drained the blood out of every animal we slaughtered. I would imagine that most animals are drained of blood when they are hung up after being killed too.

What kind of animals do you have Mark? We are thinking about getting some sheep...I love lamb chops.

Remember too, there are all those tiny little veins running through the meat itself that doesn't drain completely.

Again, I am not judging anyone's eating habits. Just a friendly conversation.

Peace.
Ken

Gregg
Dec 11th 2008, 01:50 PM
Gregg my brother...you are welcome to eat anything you want. I did not start this thread to make anyone see things my way. Rather...I do believe there are some NT passages that are somewhat misunderstood and should be reconsidered...nothing more or less. For example, I can't tell you how many times Peter's vision has been quoted to me as saying we can eat anything we want. Peter's vision has no more to do with food that the Pharaoh's vision had to do with fat and sick cows. The 1 Tim 4 verses, I believe, are also misunderstood because the things it is talking about aren't understood by many. No indictment on anyone....just a simple lack of knowledge.

In the Tanach (OT), eating unclean food does not make one unclean. There is NO verse that claims this. Rather, it is simply said to be sin, a breaking of a command. I say that because Messiah in Mark 7:18-19 is NOT saying you can eat anything you want...it is simply saying that eating anything unclean does not make YOU unclean.(defiled) Verse 19 is (seriously) talking about...uhmmm...waste elimination. Unclean foods are purged from your body through that process...but what comes out of your MOUTH is what defiles you. (For that comes from the heart)

Go back and read it in that light and let me know if you see what I have shared. No problem if not...I still consider you a brother either way!!

Peace.
Ken

Good discussion should never be a deal breaker. I have enjoyed your posts through out this site and now is not any different.

I would say that the letters to the Church concerning food were to stop the Christian Jews and the Christian Gentiles from fighting with each other. That said I do not understand how you interpret NT writings that say to give thanks for what we choose to eat as not just that. Maybe I am misunderstanding your position. Are you coming from one of health or from obedience/sin?

Brother Mark
Dec 11th 2008, 01:57 PM
Actually, it's brown. I don't know how old you are (I am 42), but I remember when I was young we still had a local butcher shop. The meats were never red, they were reddish leaning toward brown. When we go to a local food market NOW...and it is factory sealed...it has been injected with red dye (in some markets) but also the weight of the meat is up to 30% saline. The reason is to keep the meat red...because that is what people THINK meat is supposed to look like.

We're about the same age. I have cleaned a lot of my own meat. By that, I mean butcher it, then cut it up, grind it, etc. As a boy, we took the meat from hoof all the way to the dinner table. Meat that is brown is either a wilder meat like deer, or it has been aged.


You can indeed cook it all out Mark. When doing steak on a grill...the blood drips as it is being cooked down to the coals. When doing meat in a broiler...you place it on a rack over a drip pan for the same reason. Ground meat, like I said earlier, can be soaked. One addition to last nights meal....I didn't soak the meat for as long as I generally do. When I put the now lump of ground beef in the frying pan, and the weight of the meat settled....a good amount of red juice....blood...started seeping out all sides. I simply put it back under the water and got it out.

Peace.
KenOh well, I suppose we can just disagree then. ;)

Brother Mark
Dec 11th 2008, 02:00 PM
What kind of animals do you have Mark? We are thinking about getting some sheep...I love lamb chops.

Chickens, pigs, goats, cattle, etc.


Remember too, there are all those tiny little veins running through the meat itself that doesn't drain completely.Blood along with other juices.



Again, I am not judging anyone's eating habits. Just a friendly conversation.

Peace.
KenSure you are Ken. If you didn't think it wrong to eat such things, we wouldn't be having the discussion. While you may not be judging the person, you have judged the habit. ;)

kenrank
Dec 11th 2008, 02:16 PM
Good discussion should never be a deal breaker. I have enjoyed your posts through out this site and now is not any different.

I would say that the letters to the Church concerning food were to stop the Christian Jews and the Christian Gentiles from fighting with each other. That said I do not understand how you interpret NT writings that say to give thanks for what we choose to eat as not just that. Maybe I am misunderstanding your position. Are you coming from one of health or from obedience/sin?

By NO means do I think works or obediance saves. With that said, let me share a few historical facts, and then apply them to a scripture I believe to be misunderstood.

Shortly after Messiah ascended, it was difficult to tell the Jews from the Messianic believers apart. Even in Acts we see Paul going into the synogoges teaching both the Jews and the Greeks on the Sabbath. But as time went on, the "Christians" began to take on an anti-semetic tone...which was understandable. The Jews had man made laws (Hallakah) that separated THEM from gentiles. (you'll remember Peter and Barnabus eating with gentiles until the Jews showed up, then got up and ate with them so not to be seen eating with the "unclean" gentiles.) Anyway, the early Roman church began to pass laws so as to not appear "Jewish" in their practices. They passed a law moving Sabbath from Saturday to Sunday. They passed two other laws that are pertinent to this discussion.

The first was a law forbidding anyone from "eating the food of the jews." The second, was to take the authority for marriage away from the parents, where God put it, and assume that authority themselves. So instead of marriage being under the authority of God through the parents, you now in a sense, needed permission to marry from the Roman church. No marriage was recognized as "valid" unless it went through the church. And, no Christian woman was to marry a Jew...it was forbidden.

Now we read 1 Tim 4...for brevity sake I will not post it. The first 2 verses talk about people departing from the established faith, giving way to seducing spirits and doctrines of devils. Verse 3 says they are forbidding others to marry....and commanding we abstain from meat which God created to be received with thanksgiving. It then says every creature is good, not to be refused if received with Thanksgiving...for "it is sanctified by the Word of God."

I believe now you might see what the forbidding to marry part is about. And considering their anti Jewish-food law, you see where I am going. But I ask, what foods are sanctified by the Word of God as being "good?"

Was the NT compliled at this time? Were these letters part of the canon yet? The answer is no....while I believe they are inspired, at that time, there was no NT.

So when it says "The Word of God," it is speaking about the Tanach, the OT. And what foods are listed as good...those which are not unclean.

Now, this is my take in a nutshell on these verses. What do you see?

Peace.
Ken

kenrank
Dec 11th 2008, 02:19 PM
We're about the same age. I have cleaned a lot of my own meat. By that, I mean butcher it, then cut it up, grind it, etc. As a boy, we took the meat from hoof all the way to the dinner table. Meat that is brown is either a wilder meat like deer, or it has been aged.

Oh well, I suppose we can just disagree then. ;)

I realize it is red when you first butcher it, but unless I am mistaken, the brown in the aging as in part to do with the blood drying as well. Sure we can disagree...I would be almost scared if we all believed the same thing. Besides, there would be nothing to talk about!

Peace.
Ken

Brother Mark
Dec 11th 2008, 02:23 PM
I realize it is red when you first butcher it, but unless I am mistaken, the brown in the aging as in part to do with the blood drying as well. Sure we can disagree...I would be almost scared if we all believed the same thing. Besides, there would be nothing to talk about!

Peace.
Ken

Now think about that, if the red is blood, and it turns brown as it has dried out, how then does it ALL go away in the cooking? At least a portion is cooked into the meat.

It can stay red for a little while. The fresher it is, the more red it will be, unless it is a deer or some sort of animal like that. Much of our meat was frozen quickly so it stayed red until it was thawed out and allowed to age some. The aging actually makes it tender so some folks like to leave meat to hang for an extended period to let it age.

kenrank
Dec 11th 2008, 02:26 PM
Sure you are Ken. If you didn't think it wrong to eat such things, we wouldn't be having the discussion. While you may not be judging the person, you have judged the habit. ;)

Brother Mark...many will say, "I am not judging you...but" and we know they are truly judging. I believe personally that eating clean (not kosher) is not only healthier, but I see it as a command in scripture. My judgement then is that for ME, and my family, we eat clean. It hasn't been a problem at all...though my kids miss the skittles.

But I truly do not judge what you eat and what you don't. It is up to you to discern what scripture is saying and apply your life to whatever you learn. I may see certain scripture differently than you do...but I do not judge what is on your plate. If I were privileged to eat at your home, I wouldn't expect special treatment...as long as you didn't expect me to eat pork. Likewise, if you were at my home, and wanted me to pull your steak off while the inside was still pink...I would be happy to do so and thrilled to have fellowship with you in my home.

Peace.
Ken

kenrank
Dec 11th 2008, 02:29 PM
Now think about that, if the red is blood, and it turns brown as it has dried out, how then does it ALL go away in the cooking? At least a portion is cooked into the meat.

It can stay red for a little while. The fresher it is, the more red it will be, unless it is a deer or some sort of animal like that. Much of our meat was frozen quickly so it stayed red until it was thawed out and allowed to age some. The aging actually makes it tender so some folks like to leave meat to hang for an extended period to let it age.

We eat ours freshly slaughtered or frozen quickly. I bought a 1/4 cow not long ago and the meat is as red as it can be. As for getting every drop out...I simply do my best. If Acts 15 says to not eat the blood I don't. If it says not to strangle an animal, I don't.

Peace.
Ken

Brother Mark
Dec 11th 2008, 02:35 PM
Brother Mark...many will say, "I am not judging you...but" and we know they are truly judging. I believe personally that eating clean (not kosher) is not only healthier, but I see it as a command in scripture. My judgement then is that for ME, and my family, we eat clean. It hasn't been a problem at all...though my kids miss the skittles.

But I truly do not judge what you eat and what you don't. It is up to you to discern what scripture is saying and apply your life to whatever you learn. I may see certain scripture differently than you do...but I do not judge what is on your plate. If I were privileged to eat at your home, I wouldn't expect special treatment...as long as you didn't expect me to eat pork. Likewise, if you were at my home, and wanted me to pull your steak off while the inside was still pink...I would be happy to do so and thrilled to have fellowship with you in my home.

Peace.
Ken

But we are not speaking of personal preferences here Ken. For instance, can we say the same exact things about acts of immorality?

Now, if you are willing to say your belief is simply a personal preference, then OK. But if you are suggesting it is commanded by God for people to eat this way, and you are, then you have already judged the act.

That doesn't mean you have judged those that commit it. There is a difference. Though I find many messianics struggle with calling something sin. I am not yet sure why.

Jesus didn't have any issues naming sins and even pointing them out. But he was kind and gentle and accepting enough that sinners loved being around him. Obviously, he showed he cared about people and what was best for them. Sinners, picking up on this, liked being in his presence until he drove them away with some words that were hard to swallow later.

Anyway, I suspect more than discussion is desired and perhaps, a few converts or even some seeds were hoped to be planted when the thread was started.

As for me, I eat clean too but not kosher. ;)

Brother Mark
Dec 11th 2008, 02:40 PM
We eat ours freshly slaughtered or frozen quickly. I bought a 1/4 cow not long ago and the meat is as red as it can be. As for getting every drop out...I simply do my best. If Acts 15 says to not eat the blood I don't. If it says not to strangle an animal, I don't.

Peace.
Ken

I understand. Personally, I think acts 15 is about more than just draining blood from a cow and washing the meat. I think it is also about cooking it and coming to grips with understanding the difference between the letter of the law and the Spirit of the law. Paul later even expounded even more on the difference between the letter and Spirit and Acts was just the starting place where God began to reveal more and more about how to read his word.

kenrank
Dec 11th 2008, 02:49 PM
That doesn't mean you have judged those that commit it. There is a difference. Though I find many messianics struggle with calling something sin. I am not yet sure why. As for me, I eat clean too but not kosher. ;)

No, not kosher. Too many man made additions to scripture!

As for seed planting sure...but in the form of encouraging others to maybe dig a little deeper. Not to take a man's word that scripture says X, when it may be saying Y.

As for why Messianics hesitate in saying something is sin. You know how to put a guy on the spot my friend!!

Do I believe the Law is applicable today(?), yes. Do I think we should rest on the Sabbath, eat cleanly, keep the appointed Feasts of God? Yes, I see scripture as saying that. >>>BUT<<< Do I think that a Christian who does NOT see scripture this way as somehow being unsaved or not of God? Absolutely NOT!!!! Why the apparent contradiction? Because we are judged according to what we understand, what we know. When I didn't know Sabbath was a commanded day of rest, was I in sin? Not intentional sin anyway. Same with eating cleanly...I am accountable now because of what I know. So why Messianics are hesitant to say something is sin and something isn't....or avoid the question completely....is because if you don't understand a scripture...if God has not put that on your plate yet...you are not accountable.

Last point not wanting to over post here. We know as we draw closer to the end that knowledge will increase. Another overlooked verse as prophecy is Acts 3:19-21. Paraphrased it says, "Messiah is not coming back until the things God spoke through his prophets of old is restored." I personally believe Mark...that this is why we see so many Christians starting to explore the Sabbath, many keeping Passover now and other Feasts. Many eating or exploring eating cleanly. It is like people are returning to the roots of the faith. At least, I see this.

Peace.
Ken

kenrank
Dec 11th 2008, 02:52 PM
I understand. Personally, I think acts 15 is about more than just draining blood from a cow and washing the meat. I think it is also about cooking it and coming to grips with understanding the difference between the letter of the law and the Spirit of the law. Paul later even expounded even more on the difference between the letter and Spirit and Acts was just the starting place where God began to reveal more and more about how to read his word.

Agreed...Paul and Yahushua were definitely on the side of "spirit of the law." My favorite example is Mary Magdaline. While those with the stones had every right to stone her according to the letter of the law...Messiah comes along and using the spirit of the law...causes the stones o be dropped. He then gives her the opportunity to repent, which thankfully she did. Had she continued in that sin....the story turns out differently perhaps, and maybe the stone throwers are allowed to come back onto the scene.

Peace Mark...and thanks for the discussion!
Ken

Bethany67
Dec 11th 2008, 03:01 PM
Where does it say in scripture that Mary Magdalene was the woman caught in adultery?

Brother Mark
Dec 11th 2008, 03:03 PM
No, not kosher. Too many man made additions to scripture!

As for seed planting sure...but in the form of encouraging others to maybe dig a little deeper. Not to take a man's word that scripture says X, when it may be saying Y.

As for why Messianics hesitate in saying something is sin. You know how to put a guy on the spot my friend!!

Do I believe the Law is applicable today(?), yes. Do I think we should rest on the Sabbath, eat cleanly, keep the appointed Feasts of God? Yes, I see scripture as saying that. >>>BUT<<< Do I think that a Christian who does NOT see scripture this way as somehow being unsaved or not of God? Absolutely NOT!!!!

See, even here the words are chosen carefully. You did not say "are they not in sin..." but instead chose to say "not saved or not of God." Why? Because the judgment about sin is already there but to your credit, you do not wish to be offensive in the speaking of it.


Why the apparent contradiction? Because we are judged according to what we understand, what we know. When I didn't know Sabbath was a commanded day of rest, was I in sin? Not intentional sin anyway. Same with eating cleanly...I am accountable now because of what I know. So why Messianics are hesitant to say something is sin and something isn't....or avoid the question completely....is because if you don't understand a scripture...if God has not put that on your plate yet...you are not accountable.

Then just say it's not intentional sin. It's still sin though, according to some. Jesus never once drew back from calling something sin. Nor did he preach a lot about things such as food, sabbath days, etc. in a physical sense.


Last point not wanting to over post here. We know as we draw closer to the end that knowledge will increase. Another overlooked verse as prophecy is Acts 3:19-21. Paraphrased it says, "Messiah is not coming back until the things God spoke through his prophets of old is restored." I personally believe Mark...that this is why we see so many Christians starting to explore the Sabbath, many keeping Passover now and other Feasts. Many eating or exploring eating cleanly. It is like people are returning to the roots of the faith. At least, I see this.

Peace.
Ken

See, even the word "eating cleanly" is filled with judgment. What is unsaid is one can eat uncleanly. ;) I eat cleanly but not by the letter of the OT.

I love the OT. I was a big part of the Hebrew Roots forum when we had one. But I am not much of a fan of keeping the letter. It always breaks down. That's why I was pushing about eating blood. If we take the letter of the law "don't eat blood" to task, then we can't eat meat. But the letter kills. So I avoid living by the letter and instead choose to live by the spirit.

For instance, when Jesus spoke about eating and taught on it, what did he teach? he taught in terms of spiritual food. So the OT laws of eating cleanly are about eating spiritual food today. The laws of Moses were about government and God used that to hide his truth about spiritual things so he could reveal them to those who asked.

The law of Moses is different than the Law of God. That is why he said "you have heard it said, an eye for an eye, but I say unto you..." The law of Moses required an eye for an eye. The law of God did not.

Blessings,

Mark

Studyin'2Show
Dec 11th 2008, 03:12 PM
Jesus declared all foods including meat, to be clean Mark 7:19. Actually, in the Mark 7 account they were not speaking of meat at all, but of eating bread with unclean hands. It was a discussion of a hand washing ritual and had nothing to do with eating unclean animals. You have to consider that when the author penned that He had declared all FOODS clean, in no way would he consider unclean animals to be food. If one believes that Gentile believers are at liberty to eat anything, there are verses that can be used in context to make that conclusion though I do not see Mark 7 or Acts 10-11 as being them. Those verses when studying in context have nothing to do with eating unclean meats. :dunno:

As for the blood issue, I'll have to pray about that one. :hmm: Curiously, do you all feel that the Acts 15 passage stating that Gentile believers are not to eat food sacrificed to idols conflicts with Paul's words to the Corinthains here?

I Corinthians 8:4-8
4 Therefore concerning the eating of things offered to idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is no other God but one. 5 For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as there are many gods and many lords), 6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we live.
7 However, there is not in everyone that knowledge; for some, with consciousness of the idol, until now eat it as a thing offered to an idol; and their conscience, being weak, is defiled. 8 But food does not commend us to God; for neither if we eat are we the better, nor if we do not eat are we the worse.

Which one might say contrasts with what he wrote just a couple of chapters later which seems to say not to have anything to do with things sacrificed to idols.

I Corinthians 10:19-21
19 What am I saying then? That an idol is anything, or what is offered to idols is anything? 20 Rather, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice they sacrifice to demons and not to God, and I do not want you to have fellowship with demons. 21 You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons; you cannot partake of the Lordís table and of the table of demons.

It's an interesting study. Peter was certainly accurate when he penned that Paul wrote that which is difficult to understand. :lol:

God Bless!

kenrank
Dec 11th 2008, 03:20 PM
Good post S2S. "Meats" can be any food and Mark 7 was speaking about bread. Interestingly, Strongs has defined meats (Greek- Brohma) throughout the NT as Jewish ceremonial foods. Meaning, in Strong's view...anytime you talked food it was only clean food.

Peace.
Ken

diffangle
Dec 11th 2008, 03:26 PM
Where does it say in scripture that Mary Magdalene was the woman caught in adultery?
I don't think it does.

Bethany67
Dec 11th 2008, 03:28 PM
I don't think it does.

Neither do I; I was just being a smart alec ;)

Studyin'2Show
Dec 11th 2008, 03:29 PM
Where does it say in scripture that Mary Magdalene was the woman caught in adultery?Nowhere. That's one of them thar' Christian traditions but nothing that we see laid out in scripture. Could she have been the woman caught in adultery? Sure. But nothing scripturally says that is the case. ;)

God Bless!

Gregg
Dec 11th 2008, 03:31 PM
Actually, in the Mark 7 account they were not speaking of meat at all, but of eating bread with unclean hands. It was a discussion of a hand washing ritual and had nothing to do with eating unclean animals. You have to consider that when the author penned that He had declared all FOODS clean, in no way would he consider unclean animals to be food. If one believes that Gentile believers are at liberty to eat anything, there are verses that can be used in context to make that conclusion though I do not see Mark 7 or Acts 10-11 as being them. Those verses when studying in context have nothing to do with eating unclean meats. :dunno:

As for the blood issue, I'll have to pray about that one. :hmm: Curiously, do you all feel that the Acts 15 passage stating that Gentile believers are not to eat food sacrificed to idols conflicts with Paul's words to the Corinthains here?

I Corinthians 8:4-8
4 Therefore concerning the eating of things offered to idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is no other God but one. 5 For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as there are many gods and many lords), 6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we live.
7 However, there is not in everyone that knowledge; for some, with consciousness of the idol, until now eat it as a thing offered to an idol; and their conscience, being weak, is defiled. 8 But food does not commend us to God; for neither if we eat are we the better, nor if we do not eat are we the worse.

Which one might say contrasts with what he wrote just a couple of chapters later which seems to say not to have anything to do with things sacrificed to idols.

I Corinthians 10:19-21
19 What am I saying then? That an idol is anything, or what is offered to idols is anything? 20 Rather, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice they sacrifice to demons and not to God, and I do not want you to have fellowship with demons. 21 You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons; you cannot partake of the Lordís table and of the table of demons.

It's an interesting study. Peter was certainly accurate when he penned that Paul wrote that which is difficult to understand. :lol:

God Bless!

Thanks for the correction on Mark 7. I will have to check that out.

Brother Mark
Dec 11th 2008, 03:44 PM
Curiously, do you all feel that the Acts 15 passage stating that Gentile believers are not to eat food sacrificed to idols conflicts with Paul's words to the Corinthains here?

Hi S2S! I think Acts 15 was where the church began understanding the gentiles were not to be under the law of Moses. As Paul went forward, he wrote more and more clearly, IMO, about such issues. As Paul grew in understanding, and spent his time in the desert, he began to understand more and more the spiritual lessons of the law. It was these he focused on in his letters. Acts 15 was a good compromise for the Jewish Christians and Gentile Christians. I just see Paul's later writings as clarification on the whole issue just as I see the NT writings clarifying the OT.

As for the whole "thus he declared all foods clean" in context of the entire scriptures, I do think he was speaking of all foods, i.e. pigs included. However, in deference to you, I will agree that he may not have known it at the time. But then again, he may full well have known it too.

I do agree with you there are other passages that can be used and more so in the general context that it was written in. But let us also keep in mind that Jesus declared the foods clean not the hands. The food was never dirty to begin with.

bennie
Dec 11th 2008, 03:49 PM
hi

i spoke to a muslim the other day and asked him what makes meat "dirty". His response was: the blood in it. They slaughter the animal very slowly, so the heart still pumpes while it is dying. (sorry for the graphics).
For me it is like deer hunting. When it is shot with a bow and arrow, i am not to fond of the taste. It is not instent death. the animal still runs for a bit and pumps adrenalin and blood through the mussles. Does not tast to flash. On the other hand, instant unexpected death makes it tast better.

But i am from africa, and we love our meat. Every witch way you can imagine. Lamb chops at the top of the list for me.

bennie
Again, sorry for the graphic description.

diffangle
Dec 11th 2008, 03:57 PM
As for the whole "thus he declared all foods clean" in context of the entire scriptures, I do think he was speaking of all foods, i.e. pigs included. However, in deference to you, I will agree that he may not have known it at the time. But then again, he may full well have known it too.

"Thus He declared all foods clean" is an addition to the Scriptures, that's why it's in parenthesis.


I do agree with you there are other passages that can be used and more so in the general context that it was written in. But let us also keep in mind that Jesus declared the foods clean not the hands. The food was never dirty to begin with.
He was refering to the pharisees wickedness of judging people according to their man-made doctrines(ie. hand washing in this case). I'm not saying that hand washing is wicked... what's wicked is the pharisees treating it like it's a Commandment of YHWH.

Brother Mark
Dec 11th 2008, 04:00 PM
"Thus He declared all foods clean" is an addition to the Scriptures, that's why it's in parenthesis.

Yea, I know. But that is the gist of the Greek as best I can tell. But we've been down that road before, and as S2S pointed out, there are better scriptures to use.


He was refering to the pharisees wickedness of judging people according to their man-made doctrines(ie. hand washing in this case). I'm not saying that hand washing is wicked... what's wicked is the pharisees treating it like it's a Commandment of YHWH.

On that, you will get a hearty AMEN from me. No need to put laws on men that God doesn't put there, as far as religion is concerned. As a matter of fact, it is a wicked thing.

Studyin'2Show
Dec 11th 2008, 04:04 PM
See, even here the words are chosen carefully. You did not say "are they not in sin..." but instead chose to say "not saved or not of God." Why? Because the judgment about sin is already there but to your credit, you do not wish to be offensive in the speaking of it.
Hey Mark! It's good to have you participating more again. I am so often edified by your perspective. ;) Here's the thing. If I say that you are sinning for eating a ham sandwich, I am saying that my interpretation is 100% right and that there is no way I could be wrong on anything. That's pretty much saying that I am God, which I am not willing to say. The fact is that I am human and being human means that I am inherently flawed in my flesh. I could be interpreting some things wrongly (though I don't believe I am :)). You could also be interpreting some things wrongly (though I'm sure you don't believe you are :)).

But really, which believer is 100% right in all things? Are there any? Now we see through the glass darkly as brother Paul writes. Which of us can so this does not apply to them? As long as the glass is still dark, I would be a complete hypocrite to judge you according to sin. What I look at is your fruit. That is why I believe that though we interpret many things differently, we have such a high level of mutual respect. I judge your fruit as that which comes from a heart that seeks to please God. Hopefully you judge my fruit the same. With all that said, and though you might want me to wag my finger and call you a viper :lol: that ain't gonna happen. ;)

God Bless!

Gregg
Dec 11th 2008, 04:13 PM
I go into my local grocery store to buy some meat for the poor. I see beef roast on sale for $4.00 a pound, right next to it I see pork roast for $2.00 a pound. I can feed twice as many hungry people if I buy the pork. Is anyone here suggesting that I would be sinning to buy the pork? Or that buying the beef and feeding less people would be a more Godly choice?

Brother Mark
Dec 11th 2008, 04:14 PM
Hey Mark! It's good to have you participating more again. I am so often edified by your perspective. ;) Here's the thing. If I say that you are sinning for eating a ham sandwich, I am saying that my interpretation is 100% right and that there is no way I could be wrong on anything. That's pretty much saying that I am God, which I am not willing to say. The fact is that I am human and being human means that I am inherently flawed in my flesh. I could be interpreting some things wrongly (though I don't believe I am :)). You could also be interpreting some things wrongly (though I'm sure you don't believe you are :)).

Then you can say "I believe it to be a sin." But many Messianics even don't want to to do that! Of course, we all get some things wrong as we see through a glass darkly. To be honest S2S, I don't mind folks believing I am in sin as long as they have the attitude that most Messianics have i.e. "You need to be fully convinced in your own heart". That is certainly something to be valued!


What I look at is your fruit. That is why I believe that though we interpret many things differently, we have such a high level of mutual respect. I judge your fruit as that which comes from a heart that seeks to please God. Hopefully you judge my fruit the same. With all that said, and though you might want me to wag my finger and call you a viper :lol: that ain't gonna happen. ;)

God Bless!

Indeed. And that is why we get along well. Ha! Call me a viper if you date. :P No need for that to happen where one person is not putting his burden on another. No one in this thread is doing that. Still, it makes for easier communication when someone says "I believe this to be a sin". There is no doubt, you seek to serve and to please Christ. And we do agree on somewhere around 99% of things when we look at the grand scheme. And fortunately for both of us, the 1% is not so big as I or others can sometimes make it seem.

Ascender
Dec 11th 2008, 04:16 PM
I will eat anything and everything at least once, and if it tastes good to me than more than once.

There is now therefore no condmenation nor requirements for me as I am in the Annointed One Jesus, and all things are lawful for me as well. There may be some things not beneficial but I do have carte blanche to eat and drink anything with thanksgiving.

Everything else is bondage and if you want to put yourself in that box you are perfectly welcome to do so.

diffangle
Dec 11th 2008, 04:21 PM
I go into my local grocery store to buy some meat for the poor. I see beef roast on sale for $4.00 a pound, right next to it I see pork roast for $2.00 a pound. I can feed twice as many hungry people if I buy the pork. Is anyone here suggesting that I would be sinning to buy the pork? Or that buying the beef and feeding less people would be a more Godly choice?
Along that same line of thought, if you bought the grains that it took to produce that one pound of meat... you'd feed alot more people than you could with the meat. :kiss:

Studyin'2Show
Dec 11th 2008, 04:26 PM
Along that same line of thought, if you bought the grains that it took to produce that one pound of meat... you'd feed alot more people than you could with the meat. :kiss:And the vegetarian speaks! :rofl: And according to the amount of people that can be fed, she makes a lot of sense! ;)

Gregg
Dec 11th 2008, 04:27 PM
Along that same line of thought, if you bought the grains that it took to produce that one pound of meat... you'd feed alot more people than you could with the meat. :kiss:

Nicely played.....uh....they needed a little protein that doesn't come from beans...uh...my brother already bought the grain....umm....I like pork.:lol:

Gregg
Dec 11th 2008, 04:28 PM
And the vegetarian speaks! :rofl: And according to the amount of people that can be fed, she makes a lot of sense! ;)

cough....answer the question cough ;):D

Studyin'2Show
Dec 11th 2008, 04:29 PM
It's good to be able to have these discussion without everyone getting all uptight. :P

Studyin'2Show
Dec 11th 2008, 04:30 PM
cough....answer the question cough ;):DAnswer the question? cough...uh...shop at Costco! :lol:

diffangle
Dec 11th 2008, 04:34 PM
And the vegetarian speaks! :rofl: And according to the amount of people that can be fed, she makes a lot of sense! ;)


Nicely played.....uh....they needed a little protein that doesn't come from beans...uh...my brother already bought the grain....umm....I like pork.:lol:
:blushhap: :lol: :monkeyd:

15 characters

theBelovedDisciple
Dec 11th 2008, 04:49 PM
Here is another verse found in the NT as Paul speaks to Timothy as he describes the false doctrine and commandments that will charazterize the last days...

Forbidding to marry, [and commanding] to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.

For every creature of God [is] good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving:

For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.

Jesus made it very clear that it was 'not' what into you that defiled you.. but what came out of your mouth.. for those issues proceed from heart.. for that which enters into you enter thru your mouth and into your stomach and is passed out as waste... this does not 'defile' you..

God has created meat and the creatures that the meat is on... God says these creatures are 'good'...... Paul reaffirms that these are to be recieved with thanksgiving and are sanctified by the Word of God and prayer. Whether you eating your steak or hamburger a little on the rare side or well done.. is really a moot point...

The Bible declares that in the last days you will find more of these man made doctrines or commandments by those in religion .. 'adding' more rules and regulations.. tying burdens on people like the Pharisees of old... instead of abiding in the Grace and Mercy and Faith of Jesus the Christ..

Once again Jesus taught that its 'not what goes into you which defiles' you.. but what comes from you mouth.. for out of the mouth procedd the issues of the heart.. and from the heart come many different things... wicked or good...

Gregg
Dec 11th 2008, 04:52 PM
I will eat anything and everything at least once, and if it tastes good to me than more than once.

There is now therefore no condmenation nor requirements for me as I am in the Annointed One Jesus, and all things are lawful for me as well. There may be some things not beneficial but I do have carte blanche to eat and drink anything with thanksgiving.

Everything else is bondage and if you want to put yourself in that box you are perfectly welcome to do so.

All kidding aside, I have come to this conclusion as well. And since I agree with you...good post (ok, that last sentence I meant, but was tongue in cheek, I mean it was a good post, and I do agree with it, but I was also having a little fun at my own expense, sort of like I am doing now, as I cannot stop typing, ok I can stop typing but I don't want to, so I hope everybody finds the humor in this part of the post, except for the part where I wasn't kidding, then take that part seriously, if you know what I mean, so God Bless everyone).

kenrank
Dec 11th 2008, 04:53 PM
Where does it say in scripture that Mary Magdalene was the woman caught in adultery?

LOL...sometimes old habits die hard!! It doesn't have a name in that account. My apologies.

Ken

Studyin'2Show
Dec 11th 2008, 05:08 PM
Here is another verse found in the NT as Paul speaks to Timothy as he describes the false doctrine and commandments that will charazterize the last days...

Forbidding to marry, [and commanding] to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.

For every creature of God [is] good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving:

For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.

Jesus made it very clear that it was 'not' what into you that defiled you.. but what came out of your mouth.. for those issues proceed from heart.. for that which enters into you enter thru your mouth and into your stomach and is passed out as waste... this does not 'defile' you..

God has created meat and the creatures that the meat is on... God says these creatures are 'good'...... Paul reaffirms that these are to be recieved with thanksgiving and are sanctified by the Word of God and prayer. Whether you eating your steak or hamburger a little on the rare side or well done.. is really a moot point...

The Bible declares that in the last days you will find more of these man made doctrines or commandments by those in religion .. 'adding' more rules and regulations.. tying burdens on people like the Pharisees of old... instead of abiding in the Grace and Mercy and Faith of Jesus the Christ..

Once again Jesus taught that its 'not what goes into you which defiles' you.. but what comes from you mouth.. for out of the mouth procedd the issues of the heart.. and from the heart come many different things... wicked or good...As was mentioned earlier, when Paul penned his words, what would he be referring to as "things sanctified by the word of God" At that time the NT scripture had not yet been compiled. I believe he was referring to all things that the Bible said were clean to eat. That's my interpretation. As for the part about a time when there would be those 'commanding' people not to eat, no one here has 'commanded' anyone to do anything. :rolleyes: I see this more in relation to an organizarion that would possible 'command' that their leaders can not get married and tell members they can not eat meat, let's say maybe on Friday. ;)

God Bless!

kenrank
Dec 11th 2008, 05:09 PM
I will eat anything and everything at least once, and if it tastes good to me than more than once.

There is now therefore no condmenation nor requirements for me as I am in the Annointed One Jesus, and all things are lawful for me as well. There may be some things not beneficial but I do have carte blanche to eat and drink anything with thanksgiving.

Everything else is bondage and if you want to put yourself in that box you are perfectly welcome to do so.

What you deem bondage and a box, I see as a blessing. I do not see God as a changing God. If a command from 3000 years ago is said to be "everlasting," than how can it not be today? We grow up into a religious culture, it is engrained into our subconscience. How we view scripture is based on that subconscience input from our youth. Just as an off the wall example....nothing in scripture points to December 25th as the birthday of Messiah. And if it weren't for those pesky atheists the subject wouldn't arise and nobody would know any different, or care to look any deeper than the surface before them. Yet, it can be shown using scripture, that Messiah was born in mid to late September. The point, the culture we have grown up into has it's version of when Messiah was born, scripture has another.

When it comes to the Laws of God...we grow up into a culture that has deemed them done away with. (whether right or wrong) So our view when we read scripture is from the perspective that the law is obsolete thus my view of scripture can only draw that conclusion.

I didn't start that thread to get into a debate...but I would be happy to look at all the NT food references and see where the chips fall. I might not be right...but until I see otherwise, I must do as I believe scripture is stating.

Peace.
Ken

kenrank
Dec 11th 2008, 05:15 PM
As was mentioned earlier, when Paul penned his words, what would he be referring to as "things sanctified by the word of God" At that time the NT scripture had not yet been compiled. I believe he was referring to all things that the Bible said were clean to eat. That's my interpretation. As for the part about a time when there would be those 'commanding' people not to eat, no one here has 'commanded' anyone to do anything. :rolleyes: I see this more in relation to an organizarion that would possible 'command' that their leaders can not get married and tell members they can not eat meat, let's say maybe on Friday. ;)

God Bless!

I posted this before but it is probably worth repeating. The early Roman Church, what would eventually be called the RCC, passed laws to avoid looking "Jewish" in their religious practice. They moved Sabbath from Saturday to Sunday as one law. Two others apply here....

They passed a law forbidding people to "eat the food of the Jews." Ex-communication was the penalty for breaking this law. They also assumed the "authority for marriage" from where God put it, the parents, and made it so a marriage was ONLY recognized if it went through them. They also passed a law saying a Christian woman could not marry a Jew.

So 1 Tim 4 is talking about these actions I believe. As for the Word of God, S2S is correct. The NT was not put together yet. The reference is to what we call the OT. Same with 2 Tim 3:16...a reference to the OT not the uncompiled at that time NT.

Peace.
Ken

kenrank
Dec 11th 2008, 05:19 PM
Jesus made it very clear that it was 'not' what into you that defiled you.. but what came out of your mouth.. for those issues proceed from heart.. for that which enters into you enter thru your mouth and into your stomach and is passed out as waste... this does not 'defile' you..

Even in the Torah BD, eating an unclean animal did not defile you, make you unclean. It was a sin. There is a difference between being unclean and a sin. A woman during her cycle is unclean...but it is not a sin. So what Yahushua was saying in Mark 7 was that an unclean food will pass through you during the "elimination" process (the P word)...but what comes out of your mouth is from the heart, and if foul or evil...will make you defiled.

Peace.
Ken

Studyin'2Show
Dec 11th 2008, 05:33 PM
Even in the Torah BD, eating an unclean animal did not defile you, make you unclean. It was a sin. Ken, did you state that backwards? The way I interpret it is that it is not sin, it merely makes one unclean until evening. :hmm:

Gregg
Dec 11th 2008, 05:54 PM
All kidding aside, I have come to this conclusion as well. And since I agree with you...good post (ok, that last sentence I meant, but was tongue in cheek, I mean it was a good post, and I do agree with it, but I was also having a little fun at my own expense, sort of like I am doing now, as I cannot stop typing, ok I can stop typing but I don't want to, so I hope everybody finds the humor in this part of the post, except for the part where I wasn't kidding, then take that part seriously, if you know what I mean, so God Bless everyone).


Crickets! I get Crickets! I actually was laughing out loud as I was typing the ( ). No one thought it was funny?

diffangle
Dec 11th 2008, 06:13 PM
Here is another verse found in the NT as Paul speaks to Timothy as he describes the false doctrine and commandments that will charazterize the last days...

Forbidding to marry, [and commanding] to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.


1Ti 4:1 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=1Ti&c=4&v=3&t=KJV#comm/1)Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

Paul is obviously addressing something else going on here other than the Instructions of YHWH b/c His Word is not a "doctrine of devils".

Steve M
Dec 11th 2008, 06:16 PM
Crickets! I get Crickets! I actually was laughing out loud as I was typing the ( ). No one thought it was funny?
Psst: this is a Christian board. You know better. You're not allowed to LAUGH.

The elders will be swinging by your residence to have a discussion about surgically removing your sense of humor, too.

kenrank
Dec 11th 2008, 06:24 PM
Ken, did you state that backwards? The way I interpret it is that it is not sin, it merely makes one unclean until evening. :hmm:

:blush: Yes of course. The whole Mark 7 point I just contradicted eh?? ;)

Thanks!!
Ken

kenrank
Dec 11th 2008, 06:29 PM
Here is another verse found in the NT as Paul speaks to Timothy as he describes the false doctrine and commandments that will charazterize the last days...

Forbidding to marry, [and commanding] to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.

For every creature of God [is] good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving:

For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.

Jesus made it very clear that it was 'not' what into you that defiled you.. but what came out of your mouth.. for those issues proceed from heart.. for that which enters into you enter thru your mouth and into your stomach and is passed out as waste... this does not 'defile' you..

God has created meat and the creatures that the meat is on... God says these creatures are 'good'...... Paul reaffirms that these are to be recieved with thanksgiving and are sanctified by the Word of God and prayer. Whether you eating your steak or hamburger a little on the rare side or well done.. is really a moot point...

The Bible declares that in the last days you will find more of these man made doctrines or commandments by those in religion .. 'adding' more rules and regulations.. tying burdens on people like the Pharisees of old... instead of abiding in the Grace and Mercy and Faith of Jesus the Christ..

Once again Jesus taught that its 'not what goes into you which defiles' you.. but what comes from you mouth.. for out of the mouth procedd the issues of the heart.. and from the heart come many different things... wicked or good...

BD...the point Paul was making in 1 Tim 4 was that the foods considered good and not to be refused and were sanctified by the Word of God were clean food. The "Word of God" being refered to here is the OT, the new was not complied yet. All foods that are "clean" are considered to be good in the OT, not the unclean.

Peace.
Ken

Brother Mark
Dec 11th 2008, 07:09 PM
BD...the point Paul was making in 1 Tim 4 was that the foods considered good and not to be refused and were sanctified by the Word of God were clean food. The "Word of God" being refered to here is the OT, the new was not complied yet. All foods that are "clean" are considered to be good in the OT, not the unclean.

Peace.
Ken

The OT was and is the word of God. But even then, Paul's words were also considered inspired as we see in his passages to the Corinthian church.

And with the OT written, Acts 15 still didn't require the clean and unclean separation of food for Gentiles as did the OT.

kenrank
Dec 11th 2008, 07:16 PM
The OT was and is the word of God. But even then, Paul's words were also considered inspired as we see in his passages to the Corinthian church.

And with the OT written, Acts 15 still didn't require the clean and unclean separation of food for Gentiles as did the OT.

That's am opinion you have that I would love to explore. Mark, many have told me throughout the years that Peter's vision was about food. It was about unclean man. While Paul's words are inspired, he references not himself, but the Word of God in 1 Tim 4. It says all foods that are clean are to be received...so then must Paul be saying the same thing since this is his reference.

Acts 15 really deals, if you read the whole chapter for context and flow...with whether or not circumcision brings about salvation, which of course, it doesn't. So the letter goes out to the gentiles dealing with the issues raised at that time, but doesn't say anything about the law being dead. Why not join me when you have time in the Paul" a discussion on the Law thread and we can share some thoughts. I really believe there is a misunderstanding about Paul....but I also think our knowledge is increasing and things are being made clear. MHO.

Ken

Brother Mark
Dec 11th 2008, 07:19 PM
That's am opinion you have that I would love to explore. Mark, many have told me throughout the years that Peter's vision was about food. It was about unclean man. While Paul's words are inspired, he references not himself, but the Word of God in 1 Tim 4. It says all foods that are clean are to be received...so then must Paul be saying the same thing since this is his reference.

Of course Peter's vision was about men. God just happened to use food to show it. In other words, the food laws were never really about food but to use an example for things God desired to teach.


Acts 15 really deals, if you read the whole chapter for context and flow...with whether or not circumcision brings about salvation, which of course, it doesn't. So the letter goes out to the gentiles dealing with the issues raised at that time, but doesn't say anything about the law being dead. Why not join me when you have time in the Paul" a discussion on the Law thread and we can share some thoughts. I really believe there is a misunderstanding about Paul....but I also think our knowledge is increasing and things are being made clear. MHO.

Ken

I popped over there. Don't know how long I'll stay because I have looked at this issue for around 15 years. Paul never taught the law was dead, just that we were dead to the law.

keck553
Dec 11th 2008, 09:00 PM
In other words, the food laws were never really about food but to use an example for things God desired to teach.

I'm sorry, that's just not a biblically sound paraphrase. God doesn't trick people like that, or create an entire list of food that just happens to be designed by Him to be either garbage eaters or carnivores just so He could teach Peter a lesson about eating with Goyim. The truth of the matter is God NEVER said it was unclean to eat with Goyim and God was using the vision to separate His unfallable Word from human teachings. Are you really that confident that humans know more about the short or long term effects of certain kinds of food than God? Is this a trust issue?


I popped over there. Don't know how long I'll stay because I have looked at this issue for around 15 years. Paul never taught the law was dead, just that we were dead to the law.

Since we are no longer slaves to sin, our relationship to Torah has changed. We now have the liberty to live by God's righteous standards in fullness withoug condemnation. Praise God.

kenrank
Dec 11th 2008, 09:33 PM
Of course Peter's vision was about men. God just happened to use food to show it. In other words, the food laws were never really about food but to use an example for things God desired to teach.

The food laws have been followed (and sadly added to) by Judah since they were given. If they weren't about food my friend, why would the early Roman church pass a law to "not eat the food of the jews?" (punishable by ex-communication)



I popped over there. Don't know how long I'll stay because I have looked at this issue for around 15 years. Paul never taught the law was dead, just that we were dead to the law.

Paul uses a term he calls, "the law of sin." In context, his "law of sin" is the death and condemnation we inherited from Adam. So when he says we are dead to the law...is he saying we can make idols and bow to them, serve other gods, cheat on my wife....or is he saying we are dead to the curse of Adam's sin?

Peace.
Ken

kenrank
Dec 11th 2008, 09:36 PM
I'm sorry, that's just not a biblically sound paraphrase. God doesn't trick people like that, or create an entire list of food that just happens to be designed by Him to be either garbage eaters or carnivores

Good point. There are non-Torah keeping Christians all over the internet that are eating the "bible diet." Why...because clams and other shellfish eat poop...you are what you eat. Scaleless fish sit on the bottom, and again, eat poop. Pigs have that bacteria in them that though it can be killed in the cooking process, leaves it's waste behind for us to eat. While eating clean is a sign of obediance to a command, it is also healthier.

Peace.
Ken

Brother Mark
Dec 11th 2008, 11:02 PM
The food laws have been followed (and sadly added to) by Judah since they were given. If they weren't about food my friend, why would the early Roman church pass a law to "not eat the food of the jews?" (punishable by ex-communication)

Who knows why religious people do what they do...


Paul uses a term he calls, "the law of sin." In context, his "law of sin" is the death and condemnation we inherited from Adam. So when he says we are dead to the law...is he saying we can make idols and bow to them, serve other gods, cheat on my wife....or is he saying we are dead to the curse of Adam's sin?

Peace.
Ken

Some say that is what it means. But righteousness never came by the law. Now I am not to use my freedom to indulge the flesh. It seems to me that I am dead to the letter of the law and alive to the spirit of the law.

To expound more... Duet. 8:2 tells us that God will lead us to the desert and make us hungry, so that he might feed us. Then he goes on to explain he is testing us and humbling us in order that we might learn "Man shall not live by bread alone but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God". A new Testament study of eating shows some interesting things. When Satan approached Jesus about food, Jesus spoke of spiritual food. When Jesus was speaking to the woman at the well, Jesus desciples spoke to him about food, and Jesus replied with a thought about spiritual food. After the miracle of feeding the thousands, Jesus spoke to beware of the leaven of the pharisees and again, the disciples though physical food but Jesus meant spiritual teachings. Another time, Jesus spoke of eating his flesh and drinking his blood, and many thought he was speaking of canibalism and were both appalled and fascinated. But when he said "The words I speak to you are spirit" they left him for then they understood he was speaking covenant and not about physical food.

When I read the NT I see many warnings about my thought life and how I am not to eat these words (i.e. think on them) but instead I am to eat the words of God. I also see repeated references to believers being salt and having flavor indicating our words are to be such that others can eat them and find them flavorful and tasting of the grace of God.

We can further see how this spiritual thing was revealed through types, shadows, parables, pictures, etc. in Hebrews. For the covenant had regulations. But the regulations pointed to a greater covenant.

Heb 8:13-9:10

13 When He said, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear.

9 Now even the first covenant had regulations of divine worship and the earthly sanctuary. 2 For there was a tabernacle prepared, the outer one, in which were the lampstand and the table and the sacred bread; this is called the holy place. 3 And behind the second veil, there was a tabernacle which is called the Holy of Holies, 4 having a golden altar of incense and the ark of the covenant covered on all sides with gold, in which was a golden jar holding the manna, and Aaron's rod which budded, and the tables of the covenant. 5 And above it were the cherubim of glory overshadowing the mercy seat; but of these things we cannot now speak in detail. 6 Now when these things have been thus prepared, the priests are continually entering the outer tabernacle, performing the divine worship, 7 but into the second only the high priest enters, once a year, not without taking blood, which he offers for himself and for the sins of the people committed in ignorance. 8 The Holy Spirit is signifying this, that the way into the holy place has not yet been disclosed, while the outer tabernacle is still standing, 9 which is a symbol for the present time. Accordingly both gifts and sacrifices are offered which cannot make the worshiper perfect in conscience, 10 since they relate only to food and drink and various washings, regulations for the body imposed until a time of reformation.
NASB

We now look to the Spirit of the law and we learn how bad thinking can make us unclean. Just as Jesus taught in parables, i.e. word pictures, so God uses the OT to teach us in word pictures. But the new covenant is here and now we need to understand the spiritual basis behind the food laws and apply that to our lives.

I give a deeper example... The food laws were about holiness. Peter even quoted the passage. Look at what God said about the food laws and holiness in the OT.

Lev 11:41-45

41 'Now every swarming thing that swarms on the earth is detestable, not to be eaten. 42 'Whatever crawls on its belly, and whatever walks on all fours, whatever has many feet, in respect to every swarming thing that swarms on the earth, you shall not eat them, for they are detestable. 43 'Do not render yourselves detestable through any of the swarming things that swarm; and you shall not make yourselves unclean with them so that you become unclean. 44 'For I am the Lord your God. Consecrate yourselves therefore, and be holy; for I am holy. And you shall not make yourselves unclean with any of the swarming things that swarm on the earth. 45 'For I am the Lord, who brought you up from the land of Egypt, to be your God; thus you shall be holy for I am holy.'"
NASB

Now, often it is said that eating the unclean thing only made someone unclean. Yet, here God said it could make them detestable! Then he goes on to say "Be holy like I am holy".

We see it repeated here again...

Lev 20:25-26
25 'You are therefore to make a distinction between the clean animal and the unclean, and between the unclean bird and the clean; and you shall not make yourselves detestable by animal or by bird or by anything that creeps on the ground, which I have separated for you as unclean. 26 'Thus you are to be holy to Me, for I the Lord am holy; and I have set you apart from the peoples to be Mine.
NASB

So the food laws were meant to separate his people apart. They were about holiness.

Now, we go to the new testament and we can see how Peter quoted these scriptures.

1 Peter 1:13-17

13 Therefore, gird your minds for action, keep sober in spirit, fix your hope completely on the grace to be brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ. 14 As obedient children, do not be conformed to the former lusts which were yours in your ignorance, 15 but like the Holy One who called you, be holy yourselves also in all your behavior; 16 because it is written, "You shall be holy, for I am holy."
NASB

We are to eat the word of God and "think on these things" and then our behavior becomes holy. Or as Jesus said, it is not what goes into a man that defiles him, or makes him unclean, or makes him detestable, but rather, it is what comes out of the heart of man. Like Peter said and Jesus said 'lusts' will keep us from being holy.

In summary, in the OT we see that God tied the food laws to holiness. In the NT I can't find that tie in one place. Yet, I see holiness spoken of often in the NT. Then I began to see how we are commanded to eat words, to think on these things, to meditate in the word of God. These are things that will make help us think like God. And the more we think like God, the more we are holy as He is holy.

Blessings,

Mark

kenrank
Dec 12th 2008, 04:34 AM
I really appreciate the time you put into that post. I don't actually contend much of it...though how we "see" certain scripture you cite is another thing. The one thing I would bring up is this...you have quoted the verse about the old covenant being done away with. I don't disagree, but it seems you lump the old covenant and the law together as one item, which "they" are not. It is two different word in English, Greek, or Hebrew, with two entirely different meanings. Like I wrote in the other thread a short time ago, Abraham kept BOTH the Torah AND the commandments...but he was not a part of the Sinai covenant. I am not picking on you Mark...I really like you. We see things differently but we are much alike in many ways. But to really understand the issues we are discussing, on both threads because they are indeed related, you have to learn to separate the covenant from the law.

I am going to bed...today put some calouses on my fingers.

Peace and blessings!
Ken