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Dragonfighter1
Dec 11th 2008, 02:52 PM
(I think this pretty much sums up the question)

........If God chooses to put certain rulers on the throne, why should we vote in elections?

If God is going to chose, why should we even try to influence who wins?

I was thinking about that last night, because someone in the 'things happen for a reason' thread was SO convinced that Paul wrote that God chooses all Earthly leaders.


Signed: A nonny moose

kenrank
Dec 11th 2008, 02:56 PM
(I think this pretty much sums up the question)

........If God chooses to put certain rulers on the throne, why should we vote in elections?

If God is going to chose, why should we even try to influence who wins?

I was thinking about that last night, because someone in the 'things happen for a reason' thread was SO convinced that Paul wrote that God chooses all Earthly leaders.


Signed: A nonny moose

Dear Mr. or Mrs Moose. I don't believe God chooses the "rulers of the world." The world is at enmity with God, the ruling system NOT under the authority of God. This is one of the reasons Messiah will return...to set up a Kingdom on earth where God is the ruling authority. Man has tried to set up God's Kingdom on earth, and every time it has failed.

Peace.
Ken

Partaker of Christ
Dec 11th 2008, 02:59 PM
(I think this pretty much sums up the question)

........If God chooses to put certain rulers on the throne, why should we vote in elections?

If God is going to chose, why should we even try to influence who wins?

I was thinking about that last night, because someone in the 'things happen for a reason' thread was SO convinced that Paul wrote that God chooses all Earthly leaders.


Signed: A nonny moose

Hi Dragonfighter1!

I don't vote in the worlds affairs, because as far as the world goes, I am a stranger, an alien, and a pilgrim.

Gregg
Dec 11th 2008, 03:00 PM
Just an opinion. God put me in a certain place in time and history. I do not have a passion for politics, although my mentor does. I do have a responsiblity to be a good steward of what God has given me. So for me, I must invest some time in making a decision to vote, and who to vote for. I do ask God to guide me. I believe God is a God of outcomes. I may or may not like who won the election. Either way I am to reflect my Lord and Savior the best that I can in my time and place in history. Will our new leader be good or bad, I do not know. I do know that God allowed it. So I will do my best to honor his word and commands.

Bex4Jesus
Dec 11th 2008, 03:01 PM
Dear Mr. Ken,

I hope you are doing well today. How is the weather in Kentucky? :D

So anyways, I read your previous letter to Mr. Moose and wondered how you would respond to this scripture?

Romans 13
Respect for Authority
Everyone must submit to governing authorities. For all authority comes from God, and those in positions of authority have been placed there by God. 2 So anyone who rebels against authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and they will be punished. 3 For the authorities do not strike fear in people who are doing right, but in those who are doing wrong. Would you like to live without fear of the authorities? Do what is right, and they will honor you. 4 The authorities are Godís servants, sent for your good. But if you are doing wrong, of course you should be afraid, for they have the power to punish you. They are Godís servants, sent for the very purpose of punishing those who do what is wrong. 5 So you must submit to them, not only to avoid punishment, but also to keep a clear conscience.

Sincerely, and with love to all,

Ms. Bex

Partaker of Christ
Dec 11th 2008, 03:03 PM
Dear Mr. or Mrs Moose. I don't believe God chooses the "rulers of the world." The world is at enmity with God, the ruling system NOT under the authority of God. This is one of the reasons Messiah will return...to set up a Kingdom on earth where God is the ruling authority. Man has tried to set up God's Kingdom on earth, and every time it has failed.

Peace.
Ken

Matt 28:18 And Jesus came and said to them, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.

Bex4Jesus
Dec 11th 2008, 03:06 PM
Just an opinion. God put me in a certain place in time and history. I do not have a passion for politics, although my mentor does. I do have a responsiblity to be a good steward of what God has given me. So for me, I must invest some time in making a decision to vote, and who to vote for. I do ask God to guide me. I believe God is a God of outcomes. I may or may not like who won the election. Either way I am to reflect my Lord and Savior the best that I can in my time and place in history. Will our new leader be good or bad, I do not know. I do know that God allowed it. So I will do my best to honor his word and commands.

Dear Mr. Gregg,

How do you know if you are voting against the candiate God has chosen to put into power? I would be worried about doing that if I thought God 'picked' one Himself.

Sincerely and with love to all,

Bex

Dragonfighter1
Dec 11th 2008, 03:11 PM
I think this is a perfect illustration of freewill and predestination...

We vote(freewill) and God Elects (Predestination).

We are not fighting against God, we are accountable for our vote... and God doesnt stuff the ballot box, rather he uses vessels of dishonor(sinners destined to hell, known only to God) to vote the outcome predetermined by God in his sovereign right.

(bet that starts a bunch of disputing posts!):lol:

kenrank
Dec 11th 2008, 03:12 PM
Dear Mr. Ken,

So anyways, I read your previous letter to Mr. Moose and wondered how you would respond to this scripture?

Greetings Ms. Bex...weather is cold and wet here.

Just a question...why do we assume this is talking about earthly powers?

The KJV says to be subject to the highers powers, that there is no power but from God. In verse 2 it says if you resist the power you shall recieve damnation.

So...if we lived under a dictator who wanted to make us bow before an idol, murder an innocent, commit an act of forced fornication or something else that is clearly sin....are we then going to receive damnation for commiting the sin or resisting the "person" trying to get us to sin?

Peace.
Ken

godsgirl
Dec 11th 2008, 03:13 PM
God spoke to me before the election-believe it or not-it doesn't matter to me...but He said, our nations cry for "change" is louder than our churches prayer for mercy. God's will isn't always done-ie-John 3:16. Sometimes we just get what we ask for.

matthew7and1
Dec 11th 2008, 03:14 PM
I think this is a perfect illustration of freewill and predestination...

We vote(freewill) and God Elects (Predestination).

We are not fighting against God, we are accountable for our vote... and God doesnt stuff the ballot box, rather he uses vessels of dishonor(sinners destined to hell, known only to God) to vote the outcome predetermined by God in his sovereign right.

(bet that starts a bunch of disputing posts!):lol:
EXCELLENT! I completely agree. It's the free will thing. God doesn't pick, we do, God knows who we'll pick though....

Bex4Jesus
Dec 11th 2008, 03:16 PM
Greetings Ms. Bex...weather is cold and wet here.

Just a question...why do we assume this is talking about earthly powers?

The KJV says to be subject to the highers powers, that there is no power but from God. In verse 2 it says if you resist the power you shall recieve damnation.

So...if we lived under a dictator who wanted to make us bow before an idol, murder an innocent, commit an act of forced fornication or something else that is clearly sin....are we then going to receive damnation for commiting the sin or resisting the "person" trying to get us to sin?

Peace.
Ken

Dear Mr. Ken,

It is cold here too. Brrrrrr. I need to buy a new coat. Let me put that on my to-do list.

I sorta agree with you about the Romans passage. I do not think it means God choses leaders. I was just being difficult with you and wanted to see if you agree. ;)

I think God lets us pick whoever we want to pick, even if we screw up in the process.

Your friend,

Ms. Bex

Bex4Jesus
Dec 11th 2008, 03:17 PM
EXCELLENT! I completely agree. It's the free will thing. God doesn't pick, we do, God knows who we'll pick though....

Agree with DF too! He's super smart.

The only thing I will never be able to understand is how God knows what we are going to do. I mean, right now I can either pick up a pen on my desk or not pick it up. Which one will I do? No one knows until I actually do it (not even I do), other than God!! its like God has the "cheat sheet" in advance for what we are going to do. Like skipping to the last page of the novel!

Bex

Gregg
Dec 11th 2008, 03:20 PM
Dear Mr. Gregg,

How do you know if you are voting against the candiate God has chosen to put into power? I would be worried about doing that if I thought God 'picked' one Himself.

Sincerely and with love to all,

Bex

I am not worried about that. On an individual note, God takes care of me. That does not mean that my sin nature does not cause me some consequences while still here on earth. It also does not mean that some of other's sin nature does not cause me some distress while still here on earth. If I vote for a candidate, and another one wins, I ask God to Bless him with wisdom to do the right things. Picking the wrong candidate is not sinful. Having the gift of freedom to vote is a blessing. The plan is that sometime it will be end times. I am not supposed to be worried about it, but I am supposed to be ready.

godsgirl
Dec 11th 2008, 03:20 PM
Agree with DF too! He's super smart.

The only thing I will never be able to understand is how God knows what we are going to do. I mean, right now I can either pick up a pen on my desk or not pick it up. Which one will I do? No one knows until I actually do it (not even I do), other than God!! its like God has the "cheat sheet" in advance for what we are going to do. Like skipping to the last page of the novel!

Bex


God knows what we are going to do because He is the Alpha and Omega-the beginning and the end. He is above time.

Dragonfighter1
Dec 11th 2008, 03:21 PM
Agree with DF too! He's super smart.

The only thing I will never be able to understand is how God knows what we are going to do. I mean, right now I can either pick up a pen on my desk or not pick it up. Which one will I do? No one knows until I actually do it (not even I do), other than God!! its like God has the "cheat sheet" in advance for what we are going to do. Like skipping to the last page of the novel!

Bex
Just an aside not: Skipping to the end of a novel makes reading it much more enjoyable for me. I can watch the development and understand the nuances of the author better when I kow the outcome. (Not everyone will agree, some dont want nuances they want nail biting suspense). Anyway, knowing the victory in Jesus does help us enjoy a little more our rather difficult journey here on earth!

Oh and thanks for the compliment... errm ?? Got any head shrinking pills???

kenrank
Dec 11th 2008, 03:24 PM
Dear Mr. Ken,

It is cold here too. Brrrrrr. I need to buy a new coat. Let me put that on my to-do list.

I sorta agree with you about the Romans passage. I do not think it means God choses leaders. I was just being difficult with you and wanted to see if you agree. ;)

I think God lets us pick whoever we want to pick, even if we screw up in the process.

Your friend,

Ms. Bex

You are not difficult. Many do believe this passage is speaking about earthly leaders. I really don't see that as the case though. God's aim is to create a Kingdom on earth for His people where he is the ruling authority. Though I will say this...and it is unrelated to this passage...I believe certain people have been put in certain positions throughout time so that they will do whatever it is they were ordained to do so that God gets the glory from their action...or lack of one.

Peace to you...and get a coat!
Ken

Bex4Jesus
Dec 11th 2008, 03:24 PM
God knows what we are going to do because He is the Alpha and Omega-the beginning and the end. He is above time.

Dear Ms. Godsgirl,

I know what you are saying, but I was talking about 'understanding it' more than just saying it. Yes, I agree that God knows all, and if we were just actors in a play, I could understand how God would know the ending in advance. But since we can do what we want, its hard for my little brain to truly "understand" how God would know what I am going to chose to do. I'm not saying He doesn't! I'm just saying it confuses my little brain.

Sincerely

Ms. Bex

Steve M
Dec 11th 2008, 03:37 PM
I think that God has said explicitly He picks world leaders.

I think God has said explicitly He will allow a nation to make a bad choice, if that's what they want, to punish them.

I think voting my conscience is a good way to at least declare to God and the world, there's at least one left over here who is going to vote for what's good and right in this world.

So, I vote.

Bex4Jesus
Dec 11th 2008, 03:39 PM
I think that God has said explicitly He picks world leaders.

I think God has said explicitly He will allow a nation to make a bad choice, if that's what they want, to punish them.

I think voting my conscience is a good way to at least declare to God and the world, there's at least one left over here who is going to vote for what's good and right in this world.

So, I vote.

Dear Mr. Steve M,

I don't understand what you are saying? You think God picks leaders but then you say God let's nations make bad choices? Who are you saying choses leaders, people or God?

Sincerely,

Ms. Bex

BrckBrln
Dec 11th 2008, 05:00 PM
I'm one of those crazy people that believe God has planned everything including the leaders in power. We vote because that is the means to this end.

Steve M
Dec 11th 2008, 05:07 PM
Dear Mr. Steve M,

I don't understand what you are saying? You think God picks leaders but then you say God let's nations make bad choices? Who are you saying choses leaders, people or God?

Sincerely,

Ms. Bex
Well, God.

"There is no power but of God; and the powers that be are put in place by God."

Romans, the 13th chapter.

"The Most High rules in the kingdoms of men, and sets over them whom He will, even the basest of men."

Daniel.

On the other hand... look to kings.

The people asked for a king, so God punished them by letting them choose. Knowing what kind of man Saul was, he let them choose Saul based on his outward appearance.

If God lets us do something, knowing the outcome, is it His action? Or ours? If God will allow us a king we deserve... who's to blame?

Yukerboy
Dec 11th 2008, 05:13 PM
I'm one of those crazy people that believe God has planned everything including the leaders in power. We vote because that is the means to this end.

And not only that, we campaign for those up for election as the means to this end. We try to influence the election, not because we can change the outcome God intended, but to make God's intended outcome happen.

He defines not only the who, but the where, why, when and how.

Well said BrckBrln.

All things work according to His good purpose. Hitler's rise to power worked to the glory of God. Pol Pot, Saddam Hussein, Barack Obama, the list goes on....

Bex4Jesus
Dec 11th 2008, 05:15 PM
Well, God.

"There is no power but of God; and the powers that be are put in place by God."

Romans, the 13th chapter.

"The Most High rules in the kingdoms of men, and sets over them whom He will, even the basest of men."

Daniel.

On the other hand... look to kings.

The people asked for a king, so God punished them by letting them choose. Knowing what kind of man Saul was, he let them choose Saul based on his outward appearance.

If God lets us do something, knowing the outcome, is it His action? Or ours? If God will allow us a king we deserve... who's to blame?

I guess I am a total ditz today so please be patient - I am just trying to understand.

In a country like the U.S. where we vote for President, how would God pick the leader unless God actually controlled how we voted?? Wouldn't that mean we don't have free will to vote? We're just doing what God makes us do?

Steve M
Dec 11th 2008, 05:18 PM
I guess I am a total ditz today so please be patient - I am just trying to understand.

In a country like the U.S. where we vote for President, how would God pick the leader unless God actually controlled how we voted?? Wouldn't that mean we don't have free will to vote? We're just doing what God makes us do?
Well, assuming you actually believe the US has a free election that isn't rigged in the first place...

That depends by what you mean by free.

And what you mean by will.

And where you go in the Bible to find those terms.

I also disclaim that I don't know if He does set the election, or if He just lets them run to see what level of depravity we're ready to lower ourselves to this year.

kenrank
Dec 11th 2008, 05:22 PM
I think that God has said explicitly He picks world leaders.

I think God has said explicitly He will allow a nation to make a bad choice, if that's what they want, to punish them.

I think voting my conscience is a good way to at least declare to God and the world, there's at least one left over here who is going to vote for what's good and right in this world.

So, I vote.

Can you share a verse saying God picks world leaders? Saddam who ran torture rooms, rape rooms, treated woman as dogs, killed hundreds of thousands or more in Kurdistan and Iran...God put him there? Why? He os gone now...what purpose did he serve?

Peace.
Ken

kenrank
Dec 11th 2008, 05:28 PM
Well, God.

"There is no power but of God; and the powers that be are put in place by God."

Romans, the 13th chapter.

"The Most High rules in the kingdoms of men, and sets over them whom He will, even the basest of men."

"Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God."

Why do you think that is not talking about the power of God himself? That the rulers are the religious ones, ministers, pastors? The "rulers" mentioned in that verse are NOT a terror to those doing good works, but a terror to the evil!

Verse 4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain:

How many world leaders can we list that are a terror to good works and align with the evil. We have living examples that this verse shouldn't be interpreted any other way.

Peace.
Ken

Steve M
Dec 11th 2008, 05:30 PM
"Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God."

Why do you think that is not talking about the power of God himself? That the rulers are the religious ones, ministers, pastors? The "rulers" mentioned in that verse are NOT a terror to those doing good works, but a terror to the evil!

Verse 4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain:

How many world leaders can we list that are a terror to good works and align with the evil. We have living examples that this verse shouldn't be interpreted any other way.

Peace.
Ken
Hm... disagree. He didn't say 'no good power but of God,' he said NO POWER but of God.

NO POWER.

None.

Nada.

Zero.

Zip.

God is omnipotent, and nothing and nobody operates in this world without his consent. If He decided to remove any world ruler from existence right now... who could tell Him no?

He rules in the kingdoms of men, and He sets over them whomever He wills.

EVEN THE BASEST.

Dragonfighter1
Dec 11th 2008, 05:39 PM
From Yesterday... but on the same subject matter..

The issue of free will and pre-destination is a never ending debate among intelligent, Godly people.

I can only give you some illustrations that I found useful while coming to grips with it.

First lesson: With God ALL things are possible,
Even many seemingly contradictory ones! That is to say that though they appear to contradict to us, to God in his greater wisdom and understanding, they are not in conflict at all.

Second Lesson: Imagine if you will two pieces of rope that go up to the ceiling about 4 inches apart. Each goes through a hole just big enough that you cannot see thru to what is on the other side. Now, if you pull on rope #1 the other rope #2 goes up, if you pull on #2 then #1 goes up. You realize that above the ceiling is a wheel or pulley mechanism that the rope goes over and that its really one piece of rope., Now then, you are instructed to climb the rope. ????????? How??????

Both are needed to make sense of life. You must grasp both pieces of rope simultaneously- God is sovereign AND we have free will. God apparently did put Hitler in power but he did not endorse any of his actions. etc.. (some will take me to task for that, I expect them to, but to make sense of a God who is often beyond proper and full comprehension requires us to use workable explanations for ungraspable truths!)

Freewill, if we have it, can go to obvious extremes that expose its weakness, likewise sovereignty can be taken to extremes to expose its faulty definition.
I.E. If God is ABSOLUTELY sovereign by most definition offered then he would be responsible for sin. But no one would ever really make that statement! But many uses of sovereignty in posts imply TOTAL COMPELLING POWER. (While he certainly CAN impose such power, obviously he doesnt else Satan wouldnt have had the free will to sin in the very first place.)
For instance we must have free will in order to be held accountable for our sins. Yet Romans 8:28-and following verses make it clear that there is predestination too. They are only in conflict to our limited understanding. On this earth we will never come to a satisfactory grasp of this, but we will develop, each of us, a frame work of it that is acceptable for our purposes.

One framework I use concerns the Pharoah at the time of Moses. I hear people say, Quote:
"it says God hardened his heart so God Can't hold him accountable for the evil he did under that hardening"
Which is actually a perfectly reasonable statement by them... it just happens to miss the size of Gods power and wisdom and etc.. Here is my response to that.... If God knows the future and knows that the "Pharoah Dude" aint gonna get saved then at that point he is a tool for God use as explained in Romans (the clay passage where we can be used for vessels of honor or dishonor.. Romans 9)


17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, For this very purpose did I raise thee up, that I might show in thee my power, and that my name might be published abroad in all the earth.
18 So then he hath mercy on whom he will, and whom he will be hardeneth.
19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he still find fault? For who withstandeth his will?
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why didst thou make me thus?
21 Or hath not the potter a right over the clay, from the same lump to make one part a vessel unto honor, and another unto dishonor?
22 What if God, willing to show his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering vessels of wrath fitted unto destruction:
23 and that he might make known the riches of his glory upon vessels of mercy, which he afore prepared unto glory,
24 `even' us, whom he also called, not from the Jews only, but also from the Gentiles?
25 As he saith also in Hosea, I will call that my people, which was not my people; And her beloved, that was not beloved. ANyway, V22 is a give away, God knows the ones headed to destruction and uses them how he sees fit!
If God wants to use his servants anyway he wants, who are we to argue?... If God wants to use the eternally damned, who are they to argue?

ANyway, summary of lesson is: Grab both ropes and dont let go!:lol:

Here endeth the lesson!

Dragonfighter1
Dec 11th 2008, 05:40 PM
Trying to reconcile freewill and election is best illustrated by my old professors illustration..

Take two cans of baked beans,,,
Know that both are real...
pick up one and pour it into the other can...
If you can make them both fit in one can you are God..
If you cant, stop pouring and clean up the mess you just made:lol:

Butch5
Dec 11th 2008, 09:19 PM
(I think this pretty much sums up the question)

........If God chooses to put certain rulers on the throne, why should we vote in elections?

If God is going to chose, why should we even try to influence who wins?

I was thinking about that last night, because someone in the 'things happen for a reason' thread was SO convinced that Paul wrote that God chooses all Earthly leaders.


Signed: A nonny moose

I didn't vote.

Jesus said,


John 18:36 ( KJV ) 36Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

Jesus was not of this world.

John 17:14 ( KJV ) 14I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

The disciples were not of this world.

Why should we be?

2 Corinthians 6:14 ( KJV ) 14Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?


Acts 26:18 ( KJV ) 18To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.

Partaker of Christ
Dec 11th 2008, 10:37 PM
I didn't vote.

Jesus said,


John 18:36 ( KJV ) 36Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

Jesus was not of this world.

John 17:14 ( KJV ) 14I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

The disciples were not of this world.

Why should we be?

2 Corinthians 6:14 ( KJV ) 14Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?


Acts 26:18 ( KJV ) 18To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.


Thank you Butch5!

I just don't understand why more do not see this?

We are aliens, strangers and pilgrims. We are in the world, but not of the world.
Our Nation is a Holy Nation belonging to God, and we are not citizens of this world, but citizens of the Kingdom of God.

It is like Russians, Chinese, Iranians, on a visit to the USA, and voting for their own cultural needs and beliefs.

Butch5
Dec 11th 2008, 11:40 PM
Thank you Butch5!

I just don't understand why more do not see this?

We are aliens, strangers and pilgrims. We are in the world, but not of the world.
Our Nation is a Holy Nation belonging to God, and we are not citizens of this world, but citizens of the Kingdom of God.

It is like Russians, Chinese, Iranians, on a visit to the USA, and voting for their own cultural needs and beliefs.


Hi Partaker,

I have only recently come to this position. It came from a study of the Ante-Nicene church fathers. The early Christians, had a doctrine called the two kingdoms. They literally believed this doctrine, that they were not of this world. They, for the most part, did not engage in government, the entertainment of the day, Politics, etc. They lived in the world but they lived lives, that did not conform to the world. Sadly Christianity has gotten far from this kind of living, most Christians do not even realize that they are so very different from the original Christians. I didn't, I thought I was being a Christian, until I began to study them and to understand what it meant to them to be a Christian. The way I lived, I would have been thrown out of the church in their day. Needless to say I have undergone some drastic changes in both what I believe and how I live. For me, it is important to understand them because they were the first Christians, they may not have always been right, but at least I can see how they understood the teachings of the apostles. I check them against scripture to make sure that what they say is correct, I don't just blindly accept what they say. However, when I compare what they, say to what modern commentators say, there is usually no comparison, the Ante-Nicene fathers usually are right.