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Vhayes
Dec 11th 2008, 10:14 PM
17 - "Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill.

18 - "For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished.

What do these verses actually say?
Thanks in advance -
V

Teke
Dec 11th 2008, 10:23 PM
Semantics. :rolleyes: :lol:

Fulfill=complete=accomplish=finish...."it is finished"

MercyChild
Dec 11th 2008, 10:40 PM
17 - "Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill.

18 - "For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished.

What do these verses actually say?
Thanks in advance -
V

:oOk, dont know much, but I am going to give this one a shot.

First it was Jesus speaking to His disciples. Secondly Jesus knew what the disciples were thinking. That is why he told them "think not". I think Jesus was saying that He did not come to destroy the moral law, but to fullfill the law by giving true sense to it.

Until heaven and earth pass = I think that the law will never be destroyed until it should be fullfilled, meaning the Law of God.

Well thats it, I tried, if this is confusing. please just ignore this post!:blush:

Yukerboy
Dec 11th 2008, 11:17 PM
How about this shot.

The law, having been written for the lawbreakers and the wicked, not for the righteous (1 Timothy 1:9 We also know that law is made not for the righteous but for lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the unholy and irreligious), is still in effect today. However, the people made righteous by Christ are not under that law (Romans 6:14 For sin shall not be your master, because you are not under law, but under grace.). It has been abolished for them in His flesh (Ephesians 2:14-15 For he himself is our peace, who has made the two one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, 15by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations.)

The law still stands to convict those under the law.

Diolectic
Dec 12th 2008, 04:49 AM
17 - "Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill.

18 - "For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished.

What do these verses actually say?
Thanks in advance -I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill.
Or
Not come to distort (as the keepers of the law were doing), but to interpret the law correctly as HE does in verses 21-48.

angel_fire
Dec 12th 2008, 05:15 AM
No one can add or subtract. No one can tear down what God builds, and we see proof of this over the Centuries. Many people have tried to destroy Gods Word, yet it still lives on.
The Truth was foretold, then fulfilled, and the Word is still alive. And nothing, nor anyone can change, or destroy the "Will" and plans that have been written.

The Prophets were giving to the people as gifts in the past, as it is today, we have prophets as God promised today.

The Bible and God are in their original form, and will stay that way until we reach a new world!!! Amen!!!!!

scourge39
Dec 12th 2008, 06:05 AM
Jesus is stating that he himself will fulfill the demands of the law. The law will continue to condemn the unrighteous until the end of the age.

Alaska
Dec 12th 2008, 07:07 AM
Matthew 5:
17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Jesus had good reason to say what he did in verse 17 above. He was saying things that were different than what the people were accustomed to hearing. Imagine hearing him say about being peacemakers and some religious person in the audience saying, "Hey, wait a minute, Moses said eye for eye, tooth for tooth. What is this peacemaking stuff about?"

And, lo and behold, Jesus later addresses the eye for eye, tooth for tooth thing, later in the chapter continuing the same vein of thought. No longer are we to do that.

Jesus was bringing in the new things from the NT.

When He says "Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven:" He is referring to the NT commandments that He is newly introducing in that chapter and beyond.

Jesus is basicly saying, Don't take these radical changes I am making as a form of destroying the law or the prophets. What I am doing is not destroying but fulfilling. I am bringing completion to the role the law and the prophets played in God's overall purposes. Can anyone suppose that I am come to destroy the law and the prophets by the newness that I now introduce? I am not come to destroy but to fulfill. No one can destoy the law and the prophets: that is impossible, for all things that are written shall be fulfilled, and that was the Father's purpose in sending me.

Jesus was boldly declaring the things of the kingdom of God, His Kingdom, that the Father was having Him declare; The kingdom that is within those that follow Christ.
"Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven."

Jesus did not come to denounce but to complete. Since He was the fulfiller and the bringer in of the New, He couldn't very easily degrade the very covenant (OT) that foretold and paved the way for the New and better and greater covenant to be revealed.

To interpret 17-19 to mean he came to enforce all things in the OT would be a tool in the hand of the devil to bring us into bondage to the OT mindset. The truth makes free. The law was bondage.
For example, consider the bondage of holding grudges under the eye for eye thing, as opposed to the freedom of forgiveness and committing things into God's hands.

The strength of sin is the law.

Jesus didn't come to strengthen sin, he came to give us truth and deliverance to conquer sin.

The law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

xman5
Dec 12th 2008, 09:06 AM
17 - "Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill.

18 - "For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished.
When I compare this to Acts 15:22-29, the apostles conclude that there would be no more burden than this. Abstain from things sacrificed to idols, and from things strangled, and from fornication. If you keep yourself from such things you'll do well.

This (along with a multitude of other verses) tells me it doesn't say we are under some strange eternal commitment to keep the law. It never has brought or will bring justification to anybody. I like a lot of that last post actually.

I'll say this. On the one hand, the law is eternal because it is written on our hearts. Quite frankly, that pretty much is where the law's fullfillment lies anyway, in this age. I do not believe THE Law is for unrighteous men, in the sense that neither the church nor any society I am aware of enforces it anyway. It is a tutor to Christ rather than a substitute. It's not like we have a magic free pass to act unrighteous, and an unbeliever doing the same thing doesn't because he is under the law and we are not.

Truth is both his and our unrighteousness is hurting themselves and others. Sin equals death. The same price was paid, and the same solution was given. Even James said to him who knows the right thing to do and does not do it, TO HIM it is sin. Clearly an indication sin is a heart issue rather than a law issue and one man's sin is not neccessarily another's. I suppose I ultimately believe that even the unrighteous man is not judged because of his acts of unrighteousness, but because of His rejection of Jesus.

One verse says we will all be judged according to our deeds and another our words. Another says we have been made righteous in Christ. What a wonderfully confusing thing this law and grace stuff is.

Good post there alaska. Quite thought provoking.

Vhayes
Dec 12th 2008, 02:17 PM
Thank you all for your posts so far. They have given me food for thought.

To expand a bit more (or maybe narrow it down a bit) has a letter or a stroke "passed away" from the Law or is it still the exactly the same today as it was when it was handed down?

Again - thanks in advance.
V

watchinginawe
Dec 12th 2008, 03:12 PM
Semantics. :rolleyes: :lol:

Fulfill=complete=accomplish=finish...."it is finished"Here is some scriptural support for this (Jesus among his disciples after His resurrection):

Luke24:44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.

45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,

46 And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:

47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

48 And ye are witnesses of these things.

God Bless!

Yukerboy
Dec 12th 2008, 04:28 PM
Thank you all for your posts so far. They have given me food for thought.

To expand a bit more (or maybe narrow it down a bit) has a letter or a stroke "passed away" from the Law or is it still the exactly the same today as it was when it was handed down?

Again - thanks in advance.
V

I would say it is exactly the same.

The law was given so that the trespass might increase.

Friend of I AM
Dec 12th 2008, 04:48 PM
I would say it is exactly the same.

The law was given so that the trespass might increase.

I think Paul gives a better (more accurate) definition of why it was given in the verses below..

Romans 5:20
Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:

Romans 7:13
Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.



So I would say the better..(or most accurate) definitions of the law being given is in the verses above. God created the law so that sin could be more clearly be defined, and be shown as exceedingly sinful...and so that his grace would abound that much more over sin.

Teke
Dec 12th 2008, 05:24 PM
I think Paul gives a better (more accurate) definition of why it was given in the verses below..

Romans 5:20
Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:

Romans 7:13
Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.



So I would say the better..(or most accurate) definitions of the law being given is in the verses above. God created the law so that sin could be more clearly be defined, and be shown as exceedingly sinful...and so that his grace would abound that much more over sin.

It's a parallel being drawn. The subjective interpretation of the law by man versus the bountiful grace of God. Which is greater. ;)

chad
Dec 12th 2008, 08:13 PM
Hi Vhayes,

I look at this verse in terms of fulfilling the law and creating a new covenant and priesthood.

In Hebrews it says that the law and sacrifices is only a shadow of what is in heaven.

When Jesus died and rose again he fulfilled the law by creating a new covenant and priesthood, so that we are no longer judged by the law, but through his death and sacrifice, we are forgiven of our sins. When Jesus did this he fulfilled the law. Hebrews (Ch 8-10)




17 - "Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill.

18 - "For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished.

What do these verses actually say?
Thanks in advance -
V

Scruffy Kid
Dec 12th 2008, 08:50 PM
Matt 5:17 - "Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill.
Matt 5:18 - "For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished.

What do these verses actually say?
Thanks in advance -
V

Dear Vhayes,
Thanks for your challenging and important question, which directs our hearts to following God, and knowing Christ!!

I think it is rather unlikely that we can understand what Jesus is saying here (and, what Matthew is doing here) unless we understand the verses you give us in their proper context. While I do have my ideas about what Jesus has in mind (more clearly now than before you asked your question and I had to re-wrestle with it by looking at the Scriptural context more carefully!) I'd like to start just by presenting the immediate context.

Of course, these verses from Matt. 5 are from the Sermon on the Mount, which occupies chapters 5, 6, and 7 of Matthew's gospel. The SoM starts with the Beatitudes ("Blessed"s) in 5:3-12, and then proceeds to a section in which Jesus is discussing the law. He gives what I would count as 6 precepts (but some could count it as 7) each of which takes the form, approximately, "It was said of old" ... "But I say to you" ...."

The passage you ask about seems to me to occur as the general introduction to the whole set of commands that Jesus gives here, which seem to me to conform to what he says in the followup to the verses you quote. The verses right before those you quote also seem to me to introduce those verses.

However, in this post I am mainly introducing the context, while also emphasizing the repetitions with which Jesus gives a structure to His remarks, so that we can all think about the context together.

Blessings,
Scruff


Introduction verses 5:13-16
Ye are the salt of the earth: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be salted? it is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of men. Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid. Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house. Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.


What Jesus is saying about the law (including Vhayes's question)Matt. 5:17-18 (Vhayes's question)
Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Matt 5:19-20
Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.


Exceeding the righteousness of the pharisees: 1Matt. 5:21-22
Ye have heard that it was said of them of old time,
Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:
But I say unto you,
That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.


followup to 1Matt. 5:23-26
Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee; Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift. Agree with thine adversary quickly, whiles thou art in the way with him; lest at any time the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison. Verily I say unto thee, Thou shalt by no means come out thence, till thou hast paid the uttermost farthing.


Exceeding the righteousness of the pharisees: 2 Matt. 5:27-28
Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time,
Thou shalt not commit adultery:
But I say unto you,
That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.


followup to 2Matt. 5:29-30
And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell. And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.


Exceeding the righteousness of the pharisees: 3 Matt. 5:31-32
It hath been said,
Whosoever shall put away his wife, let him give her a writing of divorcement:
But I say unto you,
That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.


Exceeding the righteousness of the pharisees: 4Matt. 5:33-34a
Again, ye have heard that it hath been said by them of old time,
Thou shalt not forswear thyself, but shalt perform unto the Lord thine oaths:
But I say unto you,
Swear not at all;


followup to 4Matt. 5:34b-37
Swear neither by heaven; for it is God's throne: Nor by the earth; for it is his footstool: neither by Jerusalem; for it is the city of the great King. Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because thou canst not make one hair white or black. But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil.


Exceeding the righteousness of the pharisees: 5Matt. 5:38-39
Ye have heard that it hath been said,
An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:
But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.


followup to 5 -- (or is this new command 6?) Matt. 5:40-41
And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloak also. And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain.

Matt. 5:42
Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.


Exceeding the righteousness of the pharisees: 6 (or 7?) Matt. 5:43-44a
Ye have heard that it hath been said,
Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
But I say unto you,
Love your enemies,


followup to 6 (or 7?) Matt. 5:44b
bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;


Rationale (for 6) (or 7?) Matt. 5:45-47
That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.

For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same? And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?


Rationale: as for 6 (or 7?),
but stated in general terms for all this "new law" Matt. 5:48
Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Alaska
Dec 12th 2008, 09:52 PM
The words of law or prophet do in fact in a certain sense "pass away" after their fulfillment. Like the prophesies about Jesus' initial coming born of a virgin.
They are no more valid in the sense of their need to be fulfilled. They do however hold significant value as the sure word of prophesy that proves the Word of God to be trustworthy and accurate.

Law is pragmatic. But it may not be absolutely true.
Paul says "the law is not of faith".
John says the law came by Moses but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

Let us say someone under the OT had their tooth knocked out in a situation involving an arrogant bully. But in disagreement with those persuading him that he should require "tooth for tooth" for the crime done against him, he says he believes the thing he feels in the depth of his spirit is that he should flatly forgive the offender.

So requiring tooth for tooth now under the NT is a sin while as under the OT it was expected and was "lawful".

The law served the very practical purpose of regulating things and establishing order; even order to things that were not right but nevertheless needed to be ordered and controlled by law.

Jesus revealed for example that the law allowing divorce was not right but rather it was allowed for the hardness of their hearts, and along with the other 5 things in that chapter where He says "But I say to you..." divorce is now wrong and sinful while as under the first covenant it was "lawful".

If a law existed in the OT requiring that a man that had two wives, (one hated and one beloved) make sure that a double portion of the inheritance go to the firstborn, even if the firstborn was not from the wife who was beloved, wouldn't it be reasonable to conclude that since there is a law surrounding a situation involving polygamy that polygamy must be OK?

But that conclusion is false.

Those pushing the OT to be all TRUTH in the sense that Jesus spoke absolute truth must then endorse polygamy. But those understanding what Paul said that the law served a purpose until Christ came to bring about a reformation, understand the law about polygamy to be only a necessary regulatory insertion into a law designed to create as much decency and order as possible under their existing circumstances.

Deut. 21:
15 If a man have two wives, one beloved, and another hated, and they have born him children, both the beloved and the hated; and if the firstborn son be hers that was hated:
16 Then it shall be, when he maketh his sons to inherit that which he hath, that he may not make the son of the beloved firstborn before the son of the hated, which is indeed the firstborn:
17 But he shall acknowledge the son of the hated for the firstborn, by giving him a double portion of all that he hath: for he is the beginning of his strength; the right of the firstborn is his.

Paul said that the law served a purpose UNTIL Jesus would come. At which time He established absolute truth as opposed to some of the pragmatic and necessary rules imposed under the Old system, the OT.

OK, lets look at something else in order to create some clarity here:

Deut. 21:
18 If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them:
19 Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place;
20 And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard.
21 And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear.

There are those giving undue respect to the OT law claiming that what it says is indeed absolute truth and right after the manner that truth and right are defined under the NT revelation. This model makes the OT absolute truth and makes the NT to work around and conform to the alleged absoluteness of the OT.

But Paul said the law is not of faith.

So are we to say that the really righteous thing to do in the case of a rebellious son is to stone him after the manner of the above law?
Or are we to say that the above law is an example of the many laws under the temporarily instituted OT law that served to control and make examples of offenders for the sake of order in society?

But in reality, the really righteous thing to do is to show love and understanding and pray for the young man and show him the goodness of God that leads to repentance since that is what also led us to repentance.

Alaska
Dec 12th 2008, 10:08 PM
Dear Vhayes,
Thanks for your challenging and important question, which directs our hearts to following God, and knowing Christ!!

I think it is rather unlikely that we can understand what Jesus is saying here (and, what Matthew is doing here) unless we understand the verses you give us in their proper context. While I do have my ideas about what Jesus has in mind (more clearly now than before you asked your question and I had to re-wrestle with it by looking at the Scriptural context more carefully!) I'd like to start just by presenting the immediate context.

Of course, these verses from Matt. 5 are from the Sermon on the Mount, which occupies chapters 5, 6, and 7 of Matthew's gospel. The SoM starts with the Beatitudes ("Blessed"s) in 5:3-12, and then proceeds to a section in which Jesus is discussing the law. He gives what I would count as 6 precepts (but some could count it as 7) each of which takes the form, approximately, "It was said of old" ... "But I say to you" ...."

The passage you ask about seems to me to occur as the general introduction to the whole set of commands that Jesus gives here, which seem to me to conform to what he says in the followup to the verses you quote. The verses right before those you quote also seem to me to introduce those verses.

However, in this post I am mainly introducing the context, while also emphasizing the repetitions with which Jesus gives a structure to His remarks, so that we can all think about the context together.

Blessings,
Scruff

Introduction
13-16 Ye are the salt of the earth: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be salted? it is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of men. Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid. Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house. Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

What Jesus is saying about the law (VHayes's question)
17-20 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Exceeding the righteousness of the pharisees: 1
21-22 Ye have heard that it was said of them of old time,
Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:
But I say unto you,
That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

followup: 1
23-26 Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee; Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift. Agree with thine adversary quickly, whiles thou art in the way with him; lest at any time the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison. Verily I say unto thee, Thou shalt by no means come out thence, till thou hast paid the uttermost farthing.

Exceeding the righteousness of the pharisees: 2
27-28 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time,
Thou shalt not commit adultery:
But I say unto you,
That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

followup: 2
29-30 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell. And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

Exceeding the righteousness of the pharisees: 331-32 It hath been said,
Whosoever shall put away his wife, let him give her a writing of divorcement:
But I say unto you,
That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.

Exceeding the righteousness of the pharisees: 433-34a Again, ye have heard that it hath been said by them of old time,
Thou shalt not forswear thyself, but shalt perform unto the Lord thine oaths:
But I say unto you,
Swear not at all;

followup: to 4
34b-37 neither by heaven; for it is God's throne: Nor by the earth; for it is his footstool: neither by Jerusalem; for it is the city of the great King. Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because thou canst not make one hair white or black. But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil.

Exceeding the righteousness of the pharisees: 538-39 Ye have heard that it hath been said,
An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:
But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.

followup: to 5 -- (or is this new command 6?)
40-41 And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloak also. And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain.

42 Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.

Exceeding the righteousness of the pharisees: 6 (or 7?)
43-44a Ye have heard that it hath been said,
Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
But I say unto you,
Love your enemies,

followup: to 6 (or 7?)
44b bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

Rationale (for 6) (or 7?)
45-48 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.

For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same? And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?

Rationale: as for 6 (or 7?), but stated in general terms for all this "new law"
Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.


Good job Scruff!!
I like that a whole lot.



The passage you ask about seems to me to occur as the general introduction to the whole set of commands that Jesus gives here, which seem to me to conform to what he says in the followup to the verses you quote. The verses right before those you quote also seem to me to introduce those verses.


I assure you, we are not the only ones who can soundly deduce that the commandments Jesus refers to in 17-20 are his own commandments as he introduces the Kingdom of God. The six, "you have heard" topics are a reflection of the beattitudes.

Well Done and Well Done.

kenrank
Dec 14th 2008, 05:44 AM
17 - "Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill.

18 - "For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished.

What do these verses actually say?
Thanks in advance -
V

The only thing that could undo the curse of death, which came into the world by sin...was to defeat death by living a perfect sinless life according to the Law. Messiah did this, thus, he accomplished the purpose of the Law...he fulfilled it.

Ken

Sirus
Dec 14th 2008, 05:53 AM
but much in the law has not been fulfilled.....
....unless you are amil ;)

kenrank
Dec 14th 2008, 06:28 AM
but much in the law has not been fulfilled.....
....unless you are amil ;)

Acts 3:19-21 from the Ken Rank Free Translation...

Yahushua (Jesus) will remain in heaven UNTIL all the things that God spoke through the prophets of old is restored.

Not everything is "finished."

Peace.
ken

Sirus
Dec 14th 2008, 06:33 AM
Unfortunately for Ken Rank, much of what God spoke through the prophets of old cannot be accomplished without Jesus coming to earth to reign. Not everything is finished.

kenrank
Dec 14th 2008, 06:44 AM
Unfortunately for Ken Rank, much of what God spoke through the prophets of old cannot be accomplished without Jesus coming to earth to reign. Not everything is finished.

First of all, is there really a NEED for "unfortunately for Ken Rank?" We can't have a discussion without it coming to that type of attitude???

However, you proved my point. I KNOW not all has been finished...that was my point in sharing that verse Sirus!

Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

All hasn't been fulfilled, Earth is still here....so then is the Law.

Have a good night!
Ken

Vhayes
Dec 14th 2008, 01:53 PM
Matt 5:17 - "Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill.
Matt 5:18 - "For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished.

I have to ask, has the smallest letter or stroke passed from the law or does it still stand in exactly the same way it was written? It cannot be a "modified" law according to these verses; it is either exactly the same or it is fulfilled.

Thanks in advance -
V

Alaska
Dec 14th 2008, 10:01 PM
Matt 5:17 - "Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill.
Matt 5:18 - "For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished.

I have to ask, has the smallest letter or stroke passed from the law or does it still stand in exactly the same way it was written? It cannot be a "modified" law according to these verses; it is either exactly the same or it is fulfilled.

Thanks in advance -
V

Matthew 5:
17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

The reason He says "think not" in verse 17 is because of the things he says up to that point that would be easily seen as different in a way to what they were accustomed to hearing.
He is assuring his hearers, that though different, his teaching was not a destroying of the law and the prophets, but rather a fulfilling thereof.
How were his coming and his teachings a fulfillment?


Unless Jesus was to come, every other prophesy that has not yet happened, such as the heavens and earth being dissolved and melted, [that is to say, "burned up"] could not come to pass. He is the critical component in everything else being completed.

18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Jesus here is stressing the absolute dependability of the prophesies contained in the law and the prophets. They are be to be trusted until the very end when the final prophesy pertaining to this present heaven and earth will be accomplished, which is its passing away with a great noise and under fervent heat. So heaven and earth will in fact pass away and we can be assured that the things the scriptures promise, will be seen to be fulfilled in God's time and order right up until the very end and hence the final prohesy for this heaven and earth.

What Jeremiah wrote about the New Covenant should be read alongside what Jesus said in Matthew 5 verse 18. In the following we also see a reference to heaven and earth with regard to the dependability of God's Word.
It is as though Matthew 5:17,18 was meant to be read alongside of these verses in Jeremiah 31:

31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
35 Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name:
36 If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.
37 Thus saith the LORD; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the LORD.

In Matthew 5 we see Jesus bringing completion or fulfillment to the prophesy of the introduction of a new covenant, which he assured was not a destroying of the law but rather a fulfilling of it.
Sometimes the termination of something is the fulfillment of its greater destiny. Numerous laws ordinances, procedures etc under the OT have been terminated by the greater New Covenant, which in turn glorifies what was valid under the first covenant because of the necesssary role it played UNTIL the Messiah came who was to bring the final and NEW COVENANT, (which also contains much revelation about the old covenant).
And many of the things terminated by the new still hold great value because of their prophetic value as being a type or shadow of things to come.
For example, we no longer are to eat the passover in the first month. That has been terminated by the NT. Yet to understand what that feast represented, makes up part of the "more sure word of prophesy" that is instrumental in bringing the lost to Christ.


Can we say that the NT modified passover? Yes, that would be acceptable.
And though terminated in the literal sense of what was expected to be done on that day, is passover abolished?
No, it could rather be said to have been fulfilled.
The question at the top of this post by Vhayes, which I have again copied below, appears to suppose that any modification cannot also be a fulfillment. But the NT, that gives revelation about the motives for some of the OT commandments, has modified (or reformed as the NT says) many things contained therein.



I have to ask, has the smallest letter or stroke passed from the law or does it still stand in exactly the same way it was written? It cannot be a "modified" law according to these verses; it is either exactly the same or it is fulfilled.


Matthew 5:
17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Each prophesy and promise contained in the dependable word of God that comes to pass or is fulfilled, is just one more until "all be fulfilled". This process of God's word proving itself to be absolutely trustworthy will reliably continue until the very end when "heaven and earth pass."

Vhayes
Dec 14th 2008, 11:33 PM
Maybe I should make clear what I am trying to say.

A letter or a stroke has indeed passed away - there is no way to keep the law as it stands. This means that Jesus did indeed "fulfill" the law, as stated in the verses quoted.

What does fulfill mean? Well, if I fulfill my mortagage agreement, I am certainly not going to continue to pay the bank for my house. I may put my money in the same bank but it won't be to pay for my house - that has already been paid in full.

In my opinion, Galatians is a letter filled with how we should be alert to anyone who tries to put us under any type of "do not-s" and "must do-s". Christ gave us freedom - we should live in the liberty and freedom that He gave us.

V

Alaska
Dec 15th 2008, 12:02 AM
What does fulfill mean?


Well that's a good question.
But then you answered it after a manner and with a conclusion that does not fit the NT understanding of "fulfil" or "completion" with regards to our role as believers.



In my opinion, Galatians is a letter filled with how we should be alert to anyone who tries to put us under any type of "do not-s" and "must do-s". Christ gave us freedom - we should live in the liberty and freedom that He gave us.



This implies that any "dos" and "do nots" are wrong.

God has brought the fulfilment of the reconciliation between God and man through Jesus. To be reconciled to God means to be in line with His will, which happens to have "dos" and "do nots".

In Galations, Paul is not putting down "dos" and "do nots" that exist under the NT.
He is putting down those "dos" and "do nots" not valid in the NT or those after the manner of the OT wherein the doers did not have the source of strength now made available in Jesus.
Two systems: 1) the law (the OT) and 2) the Gospel message (the NT).
They both have "dos" and "do nots" but with numerous differences between the two.

Yukerboy
Dec 15th 2008, 12:13 AM
Not one jot or tittle did pass from the law. The law was written for the unrighteous, the lawbreakers. Those who are under the law are still under the law. However, those who are led by the Spirit are no longer under law.

Scruffy Kid
Dec 15th 2008, 12:46 AM
Dear Vhayes,
Thanks for continuing to press your point!
Matt 5:17 - "Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill.
Matt 5:18 - "For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished.

I have to ask, has the smallest letter or stroke passed from the law or does it still stand in exactly the same way it was written? It cannot be a "modified" law according to these verses; it is either exactly the same or it is fulfilled.
The basic argument I'm considering here

I guess the line of reasoning I am exploring -- and which was implied in my post above giving the context and structure for the verse you quote -- is that the saying (Matt 5:17-18)
Don't think I came to set Torah, or the prophets aside: I came not to abolish, but to fulfil.
For I tell you truly, Till heaven and earth pass, not one jot or one tittle shall pass from Torah, til all is accomplished. is the way Jesus states His teachings:
(a) the Scriptures are perfect, and true, and
(b) rather than relaxing the demands of the law, he comes to get at the heart of the Torah (for instance, in the revised commandments that follow): its outward form, its exact prescriptions, teach us its inner meaning,
the goodness of God which is far more than simply obedience to the letter of Torah, but goes much further in wholehearted goodness.

In the post above
... I was setting out the structure of the passage (Matt. 5:13-48) as follows:
13-16 You (as My followers) are here to be the light of the world

17-18 ...Don't think, then, I come to relax the Torah: rather, to make it fuller!
19-20 ...Relaxing Torah diminishes us: instead, we must exceed Pharisee-justness.
............How? Take the ten commandments and understand the intent. For instance:
............1. (21-26) Not just "don't kill" but "don't be mad" and pursue reconciliation
............2. (27-30) Not just "no adultery" but not even having lustful thoughts
............3. (31-32) Not just humaneness in divorce, but no divorce at all
............4. (33-34) Not just no forsworn oaths: utter straitforwardness in all you do
............5. (38-39) Not just limited vengeance: forgive completely if folk harm you
.... (6 or) a. (40-42) Don't contest lawsuits: give to whoever wants stuff from you
.... (7 or) 6. (43-44) Don't just love your friends: love enemies and persecutors, too!
45-47 ...So that you're true kids of your Heavenly Father Who loves even bad folks

v. 48 Be wholehearted ("perfect") in righteousness like God your Father!

Thus maybe by "not one jot or tittle will pass" Jesus does not mean (for instance) that the ritual law (washing, circumcision, keeping kosher) still stands; he means that Torah is perfect, and that what it teaches is harder (more demanding, not less) and better than mere outward observance.

Two inadequate alternative theories

As I understand it there are two main alternative explanation that get given a lot (apart from those who think OT ceremonial law is still binding on us, etc.). I find neither convincing.

1. Jesus comes asking for mercy, and love to displace other standards:
the golden rule is all the Torah, all God is asking for

2. Jesus comes asking for faith in Him to displace the requirement to obey God's commands: He knows we can't obey the law, and isn't too concerned about obeying it. He is instead trying to get us to accept his atoning sacrifice.

1. Mercy displaces the commandments?
The first is sort of the tune of so-called "liberal" Christianity. To parody that a bit: "Just be nice to one another, kind, tolerant, etc. with a bit of social justice thrown in."

There's real truth here: Jesus does often sum up the commandments as love of neighbor, and of God, and say God asks for mercy, not ritual. The heart of the gospel is God's love and mercy toward us, and we are to live that out ourselves.

The problems are (i) that niceness and tolerance aren't a solution to what's allowable, and (ii) that Jesus gives command here which make family ("sexual") morality, and honesty, and forgiveness, and obligations to tough self-sacrificing generosity much more stringent. Yes, he points us to mercy -- especially God's mercy -- as a central or master principle. But He's not setting aside commands in other areas of life.

2. It's all about trusting in Jesus, not an obligation to be obedient
This is sort of the tune of some (not all) evangelicals. To parody: Christianity is just about Jesus "paying the price" for our sins, and our "faith" being what justifies us. Actually becoming just is desirable, something we may do in gratitude, but not part of what God actually demands.

There's real truth here!! Of course, we cannot trust in our own righteousness, for we are sinners, and our very hearts are corrupt! Of course, the central fact is that Christ died for our sins (and rose on the third day)! We are made just by faith, for we cannot do all that God requires of us.

The problem is that the NT in general, and Jesus in the Sermon on the Mount in particular, makes it very clear that a good deal more is required of us than some profession of faith: saying (however sincerely) "Lord, Lord" is not enough. We must do what God commands. Otherwise our house will be built on sand. Yes of course, that means we acknowledge our sinfulness, our inability to fulfill the law, and trusting in the blood of Jesus. But that trust, to be genuine, must include wholehearted following of Christ, and that means "If you love me, keep my commandments!"

Summing up the problem with such theories
Both approaches want to get away from the stringent demands of what are often called "the evangelical counsels" Jesus gives here in Matt. 5, and throughout the Sermon on the Mount. Jesus makes it absolutely plain that if we want to be His, if we want to be rescued from the disaster of our sinfulness and its consquences, we'll have to walk a narrow and difficult path which include trying to obey these rather tough commands.

On the other hand, it's evident that Jesus -- and the apostles following Him -- did set aside the ceremonial and legal requirements of the Torah: He was not, in saying "not one jot or tittle will pass from the law", get into detailed observance of OT feasts, requirements, etc. He freely sets aside regulations about the Sabbath, to heal, and Kosher laws, for instance. Yet when it comes to going to hell for not helping a beggar (Luke 16) He says that the strict demands God makes upon us can be known from "Moses and the prophets."

Along the lines of the understanding of Matt 5:17-18 I'm exploring here:

That is, the OT, the Torah from which not a jot or tittle will pass, is indeed the guide to upright conduct strictly required of us -- but it must be understood rightly as well as strictly.

The prescriptions given in Matt. 5 illustrate, Jesus seems to be saying, how we are to listen to the Torah, the 10 commandments for instance, and hear the heart of what God is telling us!

Am I satisfied with my understanding of what Jesus is saying here?

Certainly not!!

Your question is continuing to make me try to search out His meaning!

This is just an attempt to do that!

I want to continue to hear more from others, because I don't think I fathom Jesus' teaching here as I should.

Blessings, :hug:
Scruff

Alaska
Dec 15th 2008, 01:37 AM
Jesus came to fulfil the promise that God would make a new covenant.
That covenant abolishes some things from the Old and first covenant.

Do churches exercise "tooth for tooth"?
Though we learn from the "schoolmaster', the law, we are under a new covenant now that does not permit that which was in many cases required under the OT.
To demand circumcision now is heresy.
To allow divorce now is heresy.
To allow polygamy is heresy.
To swear is a sin now while as swearing was commanded under the OT.
Demanding the resting on Saturday after the OT 4th commandment of the 10 commandments is an error by the NT standard.
Etc. Etc.

2 Cor. 3:
7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:
11 For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.
13 And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:

So Jesus did in fact come to abolish the law in a certain sense, not in the sense that he said in Matthew5: where he says he did not come to destroy.

In what sense is the OT law abolished?
In the package in its entirety as it stood, without the means providing its followers to be able to be justified by it. "No man is justified by the law".
And in the sense of its state being the best it could under those conditions wherein regeneration and the new birth were not yet available and thereby needing to cater to the lesser of two evils in various situations. While as truth can be found in the OT, there is also numerous laws that are not truth after the clarified NT standard and example.
Paul says the OT was the ministry of condemnation and death, that it is not of faith, that it is the strength of sin.
The law was crucified with Christ.
What we have now is what was resurrected, the introduction of the New Covenant that happens to differ from the OT in many things.
Those using the OT to justify things the NT does not permit are in "bondage to the law" according to the Apostle Paul.

Vhayes
Dec 15th 2008, 01:46 AM
Hi all -

I just wanted to let you know that I will be scarce for the next day or three... I am in an incredibly busy period right now and will not be at my desk anywhere near as much as I have been lately, instead I will be in the field and unable to be on the internet.

Please keep the thread alive if you feel so inclined and I will be back, probably on Wednesday but maybe as late as Thursday.

Thanks in advance!
V

Sirus
Dec 15th 2008, 02:22 AM
Not one jot or tittle did pass from the law. The law was written for the unrighteous, the lawbreakers. Those who are under the law are still under the law. However, those who are led by the Spirit are no longer under law.That would be Israel, not Gentiles. Unless you are referring to the law of conscience.

Yukerboy
Dec 15th 2008, 02:34 AM
The law of sin and death.

The law Paul referred to making sin increase.

The law that was written for lawbreakers, not those that God made righteous.

The law that we are no longer under.

It has nothing to do with Gentiles or Jews. All are under the law except those that are under grace.

Sirus
Dec 15th 2008, 02:39 AM
all are under the law? What scripture would you use for that I wonder.....

kenrank
Dec 15th 2008, 04:54 AM
Matt 5:17 - "Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill.
Matt 5:18 - "For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished.

I have to ask, has the smallest letter or stroke passed from the law or does it still stand in exactly the same way it was written? It cannot be a "modified" law according to these verses; it is either exactly the same or it is fulfilled.

Thanks in advance -
V

I would think not a thing has changed at all. What letter would you (and by YOU I speak in general V) remove from the command, " I am YHWH your God, you shall have no others before me." (?) The 10 words of commands are part of the Law...so "Do not steal" either is or isn't applicable to today. Yes, we can get all super-spiritual about this, but the same word are recalled by Paul. We simpy are not to steal, so by removing any letter "changes" the law, it "destroys" the meaning of the command because God Himself gave it in the way HE WANTED us to keep it. So when Yahushua said that heaven or earth would pass away before any of the Law (Torah) would...then we have to choose whether we believe HIS words or the interpretation of man handed down through time....interpretations intwinded in our Christian culture that we are born into.

Peace...and good thread V.
Ken

kenrank
Dec 15th 2008, 05:02 AM
The law of sin and death.

The law Paul referred to making sin increase.

The law that was written for lawbreakers, not those that God made righteous.

The law that we are no longer under.

It has nothing to do with Gentiles or Jews. All are under the law except those that are under grace.

Yuke and all who think similarly. If "under the law" means what you believe it does...there is no rule then that says you can't murder a man, steal his car, take his wife, and kick his dog to boot! Now I know you will come back and say that with Christ in me I you wouldn't do that. But then you are saying you are not capable of sin...which then means you are already changed and made incorruptable, which you are not! So "under the law" must mean something else.

Was the law nailed to the cross or stake? No,, a close read of the first 14 verses of Col. 2 reveals nothing concering the Law being nailed to the cross...for "not stealing" or "serving only YHWH" is not "contrary" to us, rather, being separated from YHWH due to the sin of Adam is what was nailed to the cross. The condemnation that the Law points out, our inability to not sin, DEATH.....and also the wall of man made laws meant to divide....these are what was nailed to the cross. But not what defines what sin is...not what defines the social code of conduct for God's people.

Peace.
Ken

Alaska
Dec 15th 2008, 05:03 AM
All are under the law except those that are under grace.


I would actually agree with this statement but disgree strongly with the meaning the author thereof has for the meaning of "under the law" and "under grace".
Those terms can't just be thrown out there without some clarification of what the particular writer means by them.

Even the gentiles who did not have the OT law still fell in the category of those "under the law" since they were (even if they did not know it) the sons of Adam and therefore also recipients of what all men inherited from him. The declaration of death applied to all of mankind even if they weren't familiar with the exact details we find in the scriptures. Hence, they were in fact "under the law".
Being under the law is used sometimes by Paul as a general reference to that state of being before Jesus came.
Under the law is under the sentence of death.
Under grace is under the promise of life and in life only applicable to those genuinely abiding in Jesus, the NT Word.

kenrank
Dec 15th 2008, 06:05 AM
I would actually agree with this statement but disgree strongly with the meaning the author thereof has for the meaning of "under the law" and "under grace".
Those terms can't just be thrown out there without some clarification of what the particular writer means by them.

Even the gentiles who did not have the OT law still fell in the category of those "under the law" since they were (even if they did not know it) the sons of Adam and therefore also recipients of what all men inherited from him. The declaration of death applied to all of mankind even if they weren't familiar with the exact details we find in the scriptures. Hence, they were in fact "under the law".
Being under the law is used sometimes by Paul as a general reference to that state of being before Jesus came.
Under the law is under the sentence of death.
Under grace is under the promise of life and in life only applicable to those genuinely abiding in Jesus, the NT Word.

That is a GREAT point Alaska. A refreshing view!! The Gentiles who did NOT know the Law, were under the law like the Jew. Guilty, "under the law." But when Messiah defeated sin by not sinning, we were pardoned and no longer "under the law." The question then, were we pardoned from being obediant once we come in faith...or were we pardoned from the condemnation associated with Adam's sin, death? If the latter, why do so many live like it was the former?

Peace.
Ken

Sirus
Dec 15th 2008, 06:30 AM
Yes, I have said to people 'it's not the Mosaic law every time you see the law in Romans' and people just look at me like a deer in headlights. There is also what we call the law of conscience (heart). Gentiles didn't know the Mosaic law but the did know a law by nature

Rom 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
Rom 2:15 Which show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another

kenrank, if I understand your question, I would say both.

Scruffy Kid
Dec 15th 2008, 04:14 PM
The discussion here seems to be all about Paul, and Pauline categories.

It's OK to discuss Paul, I guess, even on this thread. (Obviously, I love Paul.) Well and good.

But Vhayes's question is about the Sermon on the Mount, and specifically about a remark that Jesus makes there.

It seems to me to risk treating Scripture in a careless and cavalier way if we do not try to understand the meaning of this particular saying (Matt. 5:17-18 or Matt 5:17-20) in terms of the discourse in which it is embedded, and try to figure out its meaning with respect to that setting. God didn't give us what's in the bible at random: the Sermon on the Mount is not just a rehash of Paul. We need, then, to take that text seriously, and try to figure out what it's telling us. For it seems to me that if we treat major texts we know less well, or that figure less prominently in our thinking, just as adjuncts to what we got (or think we got) out of some other text (like Paul's theology, as understood by contemporary American or Western evangelicals) we won't be very open to what God might be trying to help us understand that we don't already know.

What is it that Jesus is saying, do you think, in the context of Matthew, and specifically the Sermon on the Mount, when he says
Don't think that I've come to abolish the law and the prophets; I've come not to abolish them but to fulfil them. For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the law until all is accomplished.

Then whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does them and teaches them shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will in no case enter the kingdom of heaven. The Sermon on the Mount is full of stuff about actually doing what Jesus tells us to do, and the utter importance of that (and what He tells us is very radical!):
If salt has lost its taste, how shall its saltness be restored? (5:13)
Unless your righteousness exceeds ... the Pharisees no way will you enter ... heaven (5:20)
Whoever is angry ... shall be liable to the hell of fire (5:22)
You will not get out until you have paid the last penny! (5:26)
If your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away (5:29)
You, therefore, must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect. (5:48)
Thy Kingdom come, Thy will be done (6:10)
Where your treasure is there will your heart be also (6:21)
No one can serve two masters (6:24)
Seek first His kingdom and his righteousness (6:33)
Enter by the narrow gate, for ... the way is easy that leads to destruction (7:13)
The way is hard that leads to life, and few find it (7:14)
Not those saying "Lord, Lord" enter the kingdom of heaven, but those doing the will of my Father (7:21)
I will declare to them, "Depart from me, you evildoers, I never knew you" (7:23)
Whoever puts these words of mine into practice is a wise man building his house on rock (7:24)
Whoever doesn't do them is an idiot building his house on sand, whose life will collapse(7:26-27) It's scary! Surely Jesus is not just saying all this stuff just to hear Himself talk!

And what He commands!!
.....Never get enraged!
.....Nothing even slightly unstraightforward!
.....Not a lustful thought!
.....Be generous to everyone!
.....Forgive everything!
.....Love your enemies!
.....Don't be anxious!
.....Turn the other cheek!
.....It's all about God's will and kingdom, not you!
Kapow!! Beautiful, yeah!! But unbelievably scary!!

(It's as bad as if He'd told us to deny ourselves, and follow Him to the scaffold!)

Surely this strict teaching has something to do with his statement that the law will not be relaxed, that our righteousness must exceed that of the Scribes and Pharisees, and that not a jot or tittle will pass from the law!