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Walstib
Dec 12th 2008, 03:17 AM
I remember someone giving a good lesson one time on Joh 21:13-17. It was about how Jesus uses a different word for love the third time he asks Peter if He loves Him. *Greek* I can’t remember what their comment was on the significance of the change.

Jesus then came and took the bread and gave it to them, and likewise the fish. This is now the third time Jesus showed Himself to His disciples after He was raised from the dead. So when they had eaten breakfast, Jesus said to Simon Peter, "Simon, son of Jonah, do you love Me more than these?" He said to Him, "Yes, Lord; You know that I love You." He said to him, "Feed My lambs." He said to him again a second time, "Simon, son of Jonah, do you love Me?" He said to Him, "Yes, Lord; You know that I love You." He said to him, "Tend My sheep." He said to him the third time, "Simon, son of Jonah, do you love Me?" Peter was grieved because He said to him the third time, "Do you love Me?" And he said to Him, "Lord, You know all things; You know that I love You." Jesus said to him, "Feed My sheep. (Joh 21:13-17 NKJV)

Here’s some questions I’m working on.

Why would you think Jesus changed the word?

Why would it affect Peter so deeply, was this the reason for his grief?

When Jesus said “more than these” is he talking about the disciples or is it the fish? *yes seriously*

Is there a lesson for us in Him changing the word?

Thoughts on this passage in general??
Joe

Biastai
Dec 12th 2008, 03:35 AM
Peter's grief may have been from being reminded of his 3 denials of Christ. Jesus most likely intended it that way which is why 3 confessions were drawn from Peter.

I don't think the reference to the fish is far-off at all. The net of fish has been pointed out by writers to be an image of the church and the body of believers. After all, Jesus did tell the first apostles that they would be "fishers of men."

As for the changes in the wording, I have no comment. I haven't the faintest idea yet.

Walstib
Dec 12th 2008, 03:44 AM
Joh 21:15οτε when G3753 ADV ουν So G3767 CONJ ηριστησαν they had dined G709 V-AAI-3P λεγει saith G3004 V-PAI-3S τω G3588 T-DSM σιμωνι to Simon G4613 N-DSM πετρω Peter G4074 N-DSM ο G3588 T-NSM ιησους Jesus G2424 N-NSM σιμων Simon G4613 N-VSM ιωνα of Jona, G2495 N-GSM αγαπας lovest G25 V-PAI-2S με thou me G3165 P-1AS πλειον more G4119 A-ASN-C τουτων D-GPN G5130 D-GPM G5130 λεγει saith G3004 V-PAI-3S αυτω unto him G846 P-DSM ναι Yea G3483 PRT κυριε Lord G2962 N-VSM συ thou G4771 P-2NS οιδας knowest G1492 V-RAI-2S οτι that G3754 CONJ φιλω I love G5368 V-PAI-1S σε thee G4571 P-2AS λεγει saith G3004 V-PAI-3S αυτω unto him G846 P-DSM βοσκε Feed G1006 V-PAM-2S τα G3588 T-APN αρνια lambs G721 N-APN μου my. G3450 P-1GS

Joh 21:16λεγει He saith G3004 V-PAI-3S αυτω to him G846 P-DSM παλιν again G3825 ADV δευτερον the second time G1208 ADV σιμων Simon G4613 N-VSM ιωνα of Jona G2495 N-GSM αγαπας lovest G25 V-PAI-2S με thou me He G3165 P-1AS λεγει saith G3004 V-PAI-3S αυτω unto him G846 P-DSM ναι Yea G3483 PRT κυριε Lord G2962 N-VSM συ thou G4771 P-2NS οιδας knowest G1492 V-RAI-2S οτι that G3754 CONJ φιλω I love G5368 V-PAI-1S σε thee G4571 P-2AS λεγει He saith G3004 V-PAI-3S αυτω unto him G846 P-DSM ποιμαινε Feed G4165 V-PAM-2S τα G3588 T-APN προβατα sheep G4263 N-APN μου my. G3450 P-1GS

Joh 21:17λεγει He saith G3004 V-PAI-3S αυτω unto him G846 P-DSM το the G3588 T-ASN τριτον third time G5154 A-ASN σιμων Simon G4613 N-VSM ιωνα of Jona, G2495 N-GSM φιλειςlovest G5368 V-PAI-2S με thou me G3165 P-1AS ελυπηθη was grieved G3076 V-API-3S ο the G3588 T-NSM πετρος Peter G4074 N-NSM οτι because G3754 CONJ ειπεν he said G2036 V-2AAI-3S αυτω unto him G846 P-DSM το G3588 T-ASN τριτον third time G5154 A-ASN φιλεις Lovest G5368 V-PAI-2S με thou me G3165 P-1AS και And G2532 CONJ ειπεν he said G2036 V-2AAI-3S αυτω unto him G846 P-DSM κυριε Lord G2962 N-VSM συ thou G4771 P-2NS παντα all things G3956 A-APN οιδας knowest G1492 V-RAI-2S συ thou G4771 P-2NS γινωσκεις knowest G1097 V-PAI-2S οτι that G3754 CONJ φιλω I love G5368 V-PAI-1S σε thee G4571 P-2AS λεγει saith G3004 V-PAI-3S αυτω G846 P-DSM ο G3588 T-NSM ιησους Jesus G2424 N-NSM βοσκε Feed G1006 V-PAM-2S τα G3588 T-APN προβατα sheep G4263 N-APN μου my. G3450 P-1GS

Biastai
Dec 12th 2008, 03:51 AM
Wow, thank you.

So if I have this straight...

1st time, Jesus-agape, Peter-phileo
2nd time, Jesus-agape, Peter-phileo
3rd time, Jesus-phileo, Peter-phileo

Walstib
Dec 12th 2008, 03:53 AM
Peter's grief may have been from being reminded of his 3 denials of Christ. Jesus most likely intended it that way which is why 3 confessions were drawn from Peter.I read of this and was thinking about it, I would think it does tie in here somewhere.
I don't think the reference to the fish is far-off at all. The net of fish has been pointed out by writers to be an image of the church and the body of believers. After all, Jesus did tell the first apostles that they would be "fishers of men."I was thinking fish alot because Peter when back to work , I am thinking that's what is going on in the first part of the chapter. Maybe like a reference to... what were you doing there instead of feeding my Lambs in the first question. Pondering....

Peace,
Joe

Diolectic
Dec 12th 2008, 04:00 AM
I remember someone giving a good lesson one time on Joh 21:13-17. It was about how Jesus uses a different word for love the third time he asks Peter if He loves Him. *Greek* I can’t remember what their comment was on the significance of the change
Jesus then came and took the bread and gave it to them, and likewise the fish. This is now the third time Jesus showed Himself to His disciples after He was raised from the dead. So when they had eaten breakfast, Jesus said to Simon Peter, "Simon, son of Jonah, do you love Me more than these?" He said to Him, "Yes, Lord; You know that I love You." He said to him, "Feed My lambs." He said to him again a second time, "Simon, son of Jonah, do you love Me?" He said to Him, "Yes, Lord; You know that I love You." He said to him, "Tend My sheep." He said to him the third time, "Simon, son of Jonah, do you love Me?" Peter was grieved because He said to him the third time, "Do you love Me?" And he said to Him, "Lord, You know all things; You know that I love You." Jesus said to him, "Feed My sheep. (Joh 21:13-17 NKJV)

Here’s some questions I’m working on.

Why would you think Jesus changed the word?Jesus knew that Peter really LOVED - agape Jesus.
Peter used the word phileō = Fond, brotherly love...ect... because he didn't think that he could truly love Jesus after his denial. Therefore, he could only honestly say that he was fond of Jesus. Peter was only being hard on himself.

Example:
"How could I truly love Jesus if I still sin?"
"I must not really love him, I must only like Him."

However, the fact that you keep coming back to Him and forsaking your sines, proves that you really do truly love Him, your only being hard on yourself.


Why would it affect Peter so deeply, was this the reason for his grief?Because, Jesus was acknowledging his denial.

Example:
"Yes, peter, I know you denied me, however, even if you only like Me, feed my sheep."


When Jesus said “more than these” is he talking about the disciples or is it the fish? *yes seriously*
Peter had even boasted that he would stand by Christ though all men forsook him (Mark 14:29, Matt 26:33, John 13:36-38)

Jesus was asking Peter if he still thinks that he loves Him more than others.
Maybe a pride check.


Is there a lesson for us in Him changing the word?If you have self doubt, God is greater than our heart, and knows all things.(1John 3:20)

Walstib
Dec 12th 2008, 04:01 AM
Wow, thank you.

So if I have this straight...

1st time, Jesus-agape, Peter-phileo
2nd time, Jesus-agape, Peter-phileo
3rd time, Jesus-phileo, Peter-phileo

Yep, and another thing with the fish and the question... with agape there are two meanings that differ a bit if it is things or people. Second use is Jesus Himself so that is the person def I would think. Fish or deciples makes a different possibility for the first use. ????

G25
agapaō
Thayer Definition:
1) of persons
1a) to welcome, to entertain, to be fond of, to love dearly
2) of things
2a) to be well pleased, to be contented at or with a thing
Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: perhaps from agan (much) [or compare G5368]
Citing in TDNT: 1:21, 5

Biastai
Dec 12th 2008, 04:19 AM
I read of this and was thinking about it, I would think it does tie in here somewhere.

I was thinking fish alot because Peter when back to work , I am thinking that's what is going on in the first part of the chapter. Maybe like a reference to... what were you doing there instead of feeding my Lambs in the first question. Pondering....

Peace,
Joe

You could be on to something there.

"He called out to them, 'Friends, haven't you any fish?'
'No,' they answered."
John 21:5

"Friends, haven't you any fish?" = You haven't started establishing my church yet? They confess they have not.

"Simon Peter climbed aboard and dragged the net ashore. It was full of large fish, 153, but even with so many the net was not torn."
John 21:11

C. T. Craig wrote that the fact that the net did not break is significant in that the church would not lose its stability even upon expansive growth. I'm wondering about that number 153. The author of John is not someone to insert a random number which doesn't symbolize anything.

I could just be on a totally different wavelength as you, however. The John gospel is a glaring weakpoint in my Bible knowledge (not like its strong elsewhere though! :spin:).

Vhayes
Dec 12th 2008, 04:20 AM
My thoughts may be waaaaayyyyyy off but this is what those verses say to me.


Here’s some questions I’m working on.

Why would you think Jesus changed the word?
Because He knew Peter was no yet ready to love Him with a perfect love. The Holy Spirit had not yet been sent to indwell believers, so even though Peter had spent his days with the Lord and did indeed love Him as dearly as a brother, he didn't love Jesus with a perfect, God the Holy Spirit love.

I've sometimes wondered if this was something Peter remembered as he was indwelled by the Holy Spirit and he had a "light-bulb" moment - "So THAT'S what He meant..."


Why would it affect Peter so deeply, was this the reason for his grief?
I believe his grief was due to shame at his denials of Christ and here he was, looking the Lord in the eye, having to remember the denials all over again.
In effect, Jesus gave him this opportunity as a "confession", so his conscience could be clear and his standing with the Lord would be on solid ground again.


When Jesus said “more than these” is he talking about the disciples or is it the fish? *yes seriously*
Clueless - but it could certainly have been the fish... look at Esau.


Is there a lesson for us in Him changing the word?
Yep - He will never ask more of us than we can either bear OR understand.


Thoughts on this passage in general??
The biggest lesson to me (and this may be JUST me) is three questions - not one, not two but three - the Trinity.

Thanks for this thread - it has made me think a bit!
V

brant
Dec 12th 2008, 05:38 AM
i dont know why the word change the third time, but i have been wondering myself. i have been doing a study on love which includes this passage. im not sure of the difference between agape and phileo but i have found that they seem to be each one used in different ways for example:

john 3:19 "this is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil." nasb

according to the alexandrian greek text, the word "loved" here was translated from the greek word "agape". so we see that men "agape" the darkness. also:

john 5:20 "for the Father loves the Son, and shows Him all things that He Himself is doing; and will show Him greater works than these, so that you will marvel." nasb

according to the alexandrian greek text, the word "loves" here was translated from the greek word "phileo". so we see that the Father "phileo" the Son.

the reason i bring this up is because i often hear people say that "agape" is God's divine unconditional love. if this is so, why do men "agape" the darkness, their deeds being evil?

i also hear people say that "phileo" is a lesser form of love and does not match God's love, but yet the Father "phileo" the Son.

with this said please look again at john 21:15-17.

like i said before, i dont know the answer, but you guys may come up with an answer. i'll keep checking in with you because i would "agape" ;) to know.

i also want to say it is very encouraging for me to see you studying this. if i come up with something else, i'll let you know. i hope i was a help. i "agape" you and "phileo" you. :hug:
your brother in Christ, brant

Walstib
Dec 12th 2008, 08:31 PM
"Yes, peter, I know you denied me, however, even if you only like Me, feed my sheep."

............

If you have self doubt, God is greater than our heart, and knows all things.(1John 3:20)

Thanks brother, that was the conclusion I was trying to remember.

Great end answer too!

Peace,
Joe

RoadWarrior
Dec 12th 2008, 08:37 PM
Good question, good discussion! Here are some scriptures to ponder.

Jesus calls all Christians to "agape" love one another.

Jn 13:34-35
34 A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another; as I have loved you, that you also love one another. 35 By this all will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another."
NKJV

And the definition of "agape" love is given in 1 Corinthians 13.

1 Co 13:4-8
4 Love suffers long and is kind; love does not envy; love does not parade itself, is not puffed up; 5 does not behave rudely, does not seek its own, is not provoked, thinks no evil; 6 does not rejoice in iniquity, but rejoices in the truth; 7 bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.
8 Love never fails.

NKJV

RJ Mac
Dec 13th 2008, 12:35 AM
Great discussion, may I add to the mix these thoughts.

Simon means Listening; Peter means Stone;
Jesus changes Simon to Peter why? Because Peter was not one to listen
he had rocks in his ears, he was spiritually deaf. Peter spoke before he
thought. "They will never kill you Lord!" "Get behind me Satan!"
"Call me to walk on the water!" Then he began to sink.
"I'll never deny you Lord!" He denies Him 3 times.

Now in Jn.21 lo and behold what Jesus calls Peter - Simon, Son of Jonah,
Simon - are you listening now Peter? Do you hear Me?

Do you Agapa Me? Yes Lord, I Phileo You! Tend My lambs.
Do you Agapa Me? Yes Lord, you know I Phileo You. Shepherd My sheep.
Do you Phileo Me? Lord You know all things, You know I Phileo You. Tend My sheep.

Peter was not quick to jump and put his foot in his mouth and confess he Agapas Jesus.
Peter was grieved possibly because he realized what Jesus was asking him.
Peter knew his love wasn't what it needed to be but in time Peter uses
Agapa in his letters. His love grew from Phileo to Agapa.

May our love grow as Peter's did for our Lord and if asked by Him one day
if we Agapa Him, may we with confidence say Yes Lord I Agapa You.
May our actions always reflect our heart.

As for do you love Me more than these, I would say He was referring to the fish.
Do we love Christ more than our jobs, do we work harder at our jobs than
we do for Christ? Do we love our paychecks more than Christ?

Thanks for stirring such convicting thoughts.

RJ

tt1106
Dec 13th 2008, 03:39 AM
Certainly Peter was feeling like a total waste of flesh. After vowing repeatedly to die for Jesus, he denies him three times before the cock crows.
Jesus makes him confront himself in public and asks him three times about his love for the savior.
I agree whole heatedly with the discussion already mentioned. Jesus did use a different word, to shore up Peter.
Peter was asked thrice to remedy the 3 denials.
My favorite part of the story is the next verse.

“Most assuredly, I say to you, when you were younger, you girded yourself and walked where you wished; but when you are old, you will stretch out your hands, and another will gird you and carry you where you do not wish.” This He spoke, signifying by what death he would glorify God. And when He had spoken this, He said to him, “Follow Me.”

How magnificent. He redeems Peter and informs him that he will in fact have an opportunity to DIE for him and he will not fail.
Brings tears to my eyes.

Walstib
Dec 13th 2008, 04:40 PM
First I just want to encourage everybody to talk amongst themselves as well as just to me. I am sure I could glean some more from this topic in that and good for the lurkers too. That said.

I started to reply to some posts here and got stuck on a couple things. I will get back to the responses. I missed something completely that I did not see anyone else mention. I even posted the definition and missed it…

The word used by Jesus the first two times was agapao G25 from Strong’s numbers

So this use is a verb and agape G26 is a noun.

This is a bit of a sideways direction but what really is the difference in context? I honestly never really thought about this before. Grammar buffs help me out please.

Jesus did not really ask if Peter had *agape* love for Him but if he was loving Him, would that be fair to say?

How does this change anything if it does?

Second;

As brought up by Brant I think it good to look at if agape is perfect love. I think of this verses.

Mat 5:45 "that G3704 you may be G1096 (G5638) sons G5207 of your G5216 Father G3962 in G3588 G1722 heaven G3772 ; for G3754 He makes G393 (00) His G846 sun G2246 rise G393 (G5719) on G1909 the evil G4190 and G2532 on the good G18, and G2532 sends rain G1026 (G5719) on G1909 the just G1342 and G2532 on the unjust G94.
Mat 5:46 "For G1063 if G1437 you love G25 (G5661) those who G3588 love G25 (G5723) you G5209, what G5101 reward G3408 have G2192 (G5719) you? Do G4160 (G5719) not G3780 even G2532 the tax collectors G5057 do the same G846?

The “tax collectors” who are suggested to be “the evil” *I think* are capable of this kind of love, why consider it “perfect God love”? I was thinking most Greek parents would tell their kids they “agape” them while being imperfect.

Thanks in peace,
Joe

tt1106
Dec 13th 2008, 05:06 PM
What he was asking was if Peter loved him more than anything, including "more than these".
Peter could not answer that he could. You have to remember that Peter comes with Baggage. He had been rebuked by Jesus many times and he had just fulfilled the prophecy of the rooster. Peter, even now is caught fishing instead of doing what Jesus had told him to do.
Jesus asks him if he loves him more than anything. The implication is that, if he did, he wouldn't be fishing for fish.
Peter responds with basically, yes, I love you very fondly.
Jesus asks him again, Peter do you love me Supremely. Peter answers in the same way, I am very fond of you.
The third time, he asks him if he is loves him very fondly. Peter knows the difference and is embarassed by the Lord's change in meaning. He responds in the affirmative. He receives the commandment, "Feed my sheep"
This is one of favorites exchanges. For so many reasons. Peter goes on to plant churches and is martyred for his faith.

Walstib
Dec 13th 2008, 06:44 PM
Peter had even boasted that he would stand by Christ though all men forsook him (Mark 14:29, Matt 26:33, John 13:36-38)

Jesus was asking Peter if he still thinks that he loves Him more than others.

So are you saying you think all the fish are red herrings? :P



I had to figure out a way to get that joke in here somewhere....

Peace,
Joe

Walstib
Dec 14th 2008, 07:26 PM
I could just be on a totally different wavelength as youNo same wavelength for sure, thanks for the other thoughts. Cool stuff.

I'm getting very convicted the fish are being talked about.

After reading the bread thread on the board I am thinking about how they had bread with the fish. And amazed I could spend a year or two on this chapter alone I think.

Peace,
Joe

Walstib
Dec 15th 2008, 02:11 PM
im not sure of the difference between agape and phileo but i have found that they seem to be each one used in different ways

I just wanted to share what my wife said to me when I asked her. Her native language is Finnish and is similar to Greek only in that it has as many tenses or more. In her translation it is clear different words are used. Good lesson in using all my resources. Anyway...

She said she thought agape is love that asks for nothing in return.

And phileo is like a love that is a two way street fellowship kind.

Then thinking of your question about the Father and the Son in phileo, I thought of a father and child working on a project together enjoying each other's company. Like the father is building a workbench and the kid has their little toy hammer, watching the father and imitating him, the father showing how to use the hammer, and laughing together.

Peace,
Joe

Walstib
Dec 15th 2008, 02:26 PM
Jesus calls all Christians to "agape" love one another.

Jn 13:34-35
34 A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another; as I have loved you, that you also love one another. 35 By this all will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another."
NKJV


Well, from the lack of responses to my grammar question I am feeling like the only one who never really thought as love as a noun before. Just pondering the nature of noun love, to have love. Something that is a thing but you cannot hold or see. Being different than the act of loving. Your passage a good one to look at as it has both in it, verb and noun.

What does it mean to "have love" itself without looking at it in action?

Peace,
Joe

Walstib
Dec 15th 2008, 02:42 PM
may I add to the mix these thoughts.

Thanks for them, good stuff. Just thinking when I read your post how Jesus changes the request of Peter as well. feed lambs, tend sheep, feed sheep. A picture of growth there I think, with individuals and the earthly church.

Peace,
Joe