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View Full Version : Faith without works is dead - Is it enough just to believe?



Firstfruits
Dec 12th 2008, 10:21 AM
What are the works that these scriptures are refering to?

Jas 2:19 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=59&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=19) Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
Jas 2:20 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=59&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=20) But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
Jas 2:21 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=59&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=21) Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
Jas 2:22 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=59&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=22) Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
Jas 2:23 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=59&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=23) And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
Jas 2:24 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=59&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=24) Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Jas 1:22 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=59&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=22) But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
Jas 1:23 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=59&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=23) For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:
Jas 1:25 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=59&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=25) But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.

Let be known that this is not saying that works will save us, as I am sure we all know how we are saved, but is it enough just to believe, is it enough just to have faith?

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Slug1
Dec 12th 2008, 01:07 PM
I look at it this way... once you put faith in Jesus Christ you're past the freewill part of life. Now it's obedience or disobedience and once you have "freely" chosen to serve and worship God, He's gonna use you. This "use" of you produces fruit by whatever works He leads you to do. You either do it (obedience) or you don't do it (disobedience).

If you don't do it... ever... is that faith real?

Rufus_1611
Dec 12th 2008, 01:46 PM
What are the works that these scriptures are refering to?

Jas 2:19 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=59&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=19) Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
Jas 2:20 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=59&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=20) But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
Jas 2:21 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=59&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=21) Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
Jas 2:22 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=59&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=22) Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
Jas 2:23 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=59&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=23) And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
Jas 2:24 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=59&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=24) Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Jas 1:22 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=59&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=22) But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
Jas 1:23 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=59&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=23) For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:
Jas 1:25 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=59&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=25) But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.

Let be known that this is not saying that works will save us, as I am sure we all know how we are saved, but is it enough just to believe, is it enough just to have faith?

God bless you!

Firstfruits Faith is enough if all one is after is eternal salvation for that is a free gift. If one wants the Kingdom though, then they need to step up to the line and run...


"Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain." - 1 Corinthians 9:24

Moxie
Dec 12th 2008, 02:08 PM
Faith is enough if all one is after is eternal salvation for that is a free gift. If one wants the Kingdom though, then they need to step up to the line and run...

:confused I don't understand.....what are you referring to when you say, "if one wants the kingdom"? Isn't having eternal salvation and having the kingdom the same thing?

SpokenFor
Dec 12th 2008, 02:22 PM
Salvation is through repentance and Faith in Jesus Christ alone. The EVIDENCE that you have been truly saved is that you will desire to do the work of the Father. This is part of the doctrine of Regeneration. If there is not evidence of the Holy Spirit in your life (fruit of the Spirit and good works) then you need to test yourself to see if you are truly in the faith. Works themselves, however, do NOTHING towards our salvation (Eph 2:9)

Paul Washer does a great job of explaining this: http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?SID=1021081230111

Rufus_1611
Dec 12th 2008, 02:22 PM
:confused I don't understand.....what are you referring to when you say, "if one wants the kingdom"? Isn't having eternal salvation and having the kingdom the same thing? I don't believe it to be. Man has labored for about 6,000 years on earth and what comes next is a 1,000 year millennial day of rest as a reward to those faithful servants who have suffered for the cause of Christ. After the 1,000 years is up, then comes the eternal heaven.


"Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years." - Revelation 20:6

Ascender
Dec 12th 2008, 02:26 PM
Faith is different than belief. Faith, even if it is like unto a mustard seed can still move mountains! Faith is also the source of works, works come and are the natural outgrowth of a striving, developing and growing faith and Galatians' Fruit of the Spirit are a portion of the works at work.

Firstfruits
Dec 12th 2008, 02:37 PM
Faith is enough if all one is after is eternal salvation for that is a free gift. If one wants the Kingdom though, then they need to step up to the line and run...

"Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain." - 1 Corinthians 9:24


Hi Rufus,

Can you explain the following?

Jas 2:20 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=59&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=20) But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

Thanks,

Firstfruits

Yukerboy
Dec 12th 2008, 02:49 PM
We continually remember before our God and Father your work produced by faith, your labor prompted by love, and your endurance inspired by hope in our Lord Jesus Christ. (1 Thessalonians 1:3)

Faith without works is dead only because the result of faith is works. If you claim to have faith, but have no works, then your faith did not produce works, making it a dead faith.

If you don't labor, but claim to have love, then you love did not prompt labor, resulting in a dead love.

If you claim to have hope but do not persevere (endure to the end) you had a false hope that did not inspire you to persevere and endure.

All are dead if they are claimed to be had but do not produce the results that Paul states they will produce. As stated by Paul, these three remain, faith, hope, and love and the greatest of these is love.

Yuke

TrustingFollower
Dec 12th 2008, 02:58 PM
Paul covers the issue of works in his letter to the Colossians.

Colossians 3

16 Let the word of Christ richly dwell within you, with all wisdom teaching and admonishing one another with psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with thankfulness in your hearts to God.
17 Whatever you do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks through Him to God the Father.

So the works in this is the building up the body of Christ. Teaching and encouraging one another to equip the body for spreading of the gospel message. The works are a physical testimony of our faith in Christ to give thank to the Father for the gift He gave us.

Slug1
Dec 12th 2008, 03:02 PM
Faith without works is dead only because the result of faith is works. If you claim to have faith, but have no works, then your faith did not produce works, making it a dead faith.
YukeYep!

John 15:1-2, 5-6 explains all this as well. Through faith we're a branch on the vine and if we are obedient, God will use us and prune us as we grow and mature in our faith. Giving us greater works for the production of greater fruit to give Him greater glory.

However, if a person doesn't do anything... they're not pruned... they're cut off the vine.

Rufus_1611
Dec 12th 2008, 03:09 PM
Hi Rufus,

Can you explain the following?

Jas 2:20 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=59&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=20) But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

Thanks,

Firstfruits It means it's a dead faith. One who has faith but no works is an unprofitable servant. Once we're saved we are saved unto good works. If we go do good works then we are profitable and will be rewarded in a positive way. If we choose not to do good works and choose to be unprofitable, then we will be rewarded in a negative way. Regardless of what works we do or do not do, we can not get saved or unsaved by the works that we do, for salvation is by grace through faith alone and not of works.

Firstfruits
Dec 12th 2008, 03:55 PM
It means it's a dead faith. One who has faith but no works is an unprofitable servant. Once we're saved we are saved unto good works. If we go do good works then we are profitable and will be rewarded in a positive way. If we choose not to do good works and choose to be unprofitable, then we will be rewarded in a negative way. Regardless of what works we do or do not do, we can not get saved or unsaved by the works that we do, for salvation is by grace through faith alone and not of works.

Thanks Rufus,

I did mention in #1 that this was not to say that we are saved by works, but as the following affirms it accompanies salvation.

Heb 6:9 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=58&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=9) But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.

God bless you!!!

Firstfruits

Ascender
Dec 12th 2008, 03:58 PM
Thanks Rufus,

I did mention in #1 that this was not to say that we are saved by works, but as the following affirms it accompanies salvation.

Heb 6:9 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=58&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=9) But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.

God bless you!!!

Firstfruits


Well said......:note:

Yukerboy
Dec 12th 2008, 04:02 PM
It means it's a dead faith. One who has faith but no works is an unprofitable servant. Once we're saved we are saved unto good works. If we go do good works then we are profitable and will be rewarded in a positive way. If we choose not to do good works and choose to be unprofitable, then we will be rewarded in a negative way. Regardless of what works we do or do not do, we can not get saved or unsaved by the works that we do, for salvation is by grace through faith alone and not of works.

This is also speaking of perseverance. We can believe we are saved and fall away. As John said the only ones that belonged to us remain with us. If a person does not remain, he never belonged to us.

Faith produces works. Works is a direct result of live faith.

tt1106
Dec 12th 2008, 04:04 PM
I agree, If you are truly a follower of Christ, you will bear fruit, it is unavoidable.

Ascender
Dec 12th 2008, 04:06 PM
Could we thus say then that -- Works is evidence of Salvation as much as Love is the evidence of God's Spirit indwelling a believer?

Friend of I AM
Dec 12th 2008, 04:32 PM
This is also speaking of perseverance. We can believe we are saved and fall away. As John said the only ones that belonged to us remain with us. If a person does not remain, he never belonged to us.

Faith produces works. Works is a direct result of live faith.

The works are those things which contain fruits of the spirit..

Galations 5:22-23
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.

We do these things in everday life..showing kindness to others, being loving to others(during the good times and bad times), etc...I often times think of the woman who gave the one coin in the temple. What she gave is a true example of a Godly work...and was of more value than what anyone else gave.

Firstfruits
Dec 12th 2008, 09:31 PM
God will remember!!

1 Cor 15:58 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=46&CHAP=15&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=58) Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.

1 Thess 1:3 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=52&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=3) Remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labour of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father;

Heb 6:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=58&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) For God is not unrighteous to forget your work and labour of love, which ye have shewed toward his name, in that ye have ministered to the saints, and do minister.

I hope these scriptures will furthur show that works accompany salvation.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Dec 13th 2008, 06:29 PM
With regards to the following, if we do not do any work can we expect to be rewarded with what Christ has promised those that believe?

Jas 1:25 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=59&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=25) But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.

Rev 11:18 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=11&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=18) And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

Rev 22:12 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=22&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=12) And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Ekeak
Dec 13th 2008, 10:32 PM
No man can judge anothers works, but God can judge every mans works.

Firstfruits
Dec 14th 2008, 11:24 AM
No man can judge anothers works, but God can judge every mans works.

With regards to the following scrpture, can we tell when someones work is not as it should be?

2 Thess 3:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=53&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) For even when we were with you, this we commanded you, that if any would not work, neither should he eat.

Thanks,

Firstfruits

4HeavensSake
Dec 14th 2008, 12:54 PM
With regards to the following scrpture, can we tell when someones work is not as it should be?

2 Thess 3:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=53&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) For even when we were with you, this we commanded you, that if any would not work, neither should he eat.

Thanks,

Firstfruits

We also know that we are not to judge the works of men. The scripture you are referring to is talking about physical jobs. Essentially saying if you are too lazy to work then you don't deserve to eat.

Rom 4:4 NowG1161 to him that workethG2038 is theG3588 rewardG3408 notG3756 reckonedG3049 ofG2596 grace,G5485 butG235 ofG2596 debt.G3783
Rom 4:5 ButG1161 to him that workethG2038 not,G3361 butG1161 believethG4100 onG1909 him that justifiethG1344 theG3588 ungodly,G765 hisG848 faithG4102 is countedG3049 forG1519 righteousness.G1343
To me this re affirms the fact that works is NOT required in any way for salvation. A person who is saved will feel morally responsible to do good works in response to the salvation he has already recieved.


1Co 3:13 Every man'sG1538 workG2041 shall be madeG1096 manifest:G5318 forG1063 theG3588 dayG2250 shall declareG1213 it, becauseG3754 it shall be revealedG601 byG1722 fire;G4442 andG2532 theG3588 fireG4442 shall tryG1381 every man'sG1538 workG2041 of what sortG3697 it is.G2076
1Co 3:14 If any man'sG1536 workG2041 abideG3306 whichG3739 he hath built thereupon,G2026 he shall receiveG2983 a reward.G3408
1Co 3:15 If any man'sG1536 workG2041 shall be burned,G2618 he shall suffer loss:G2210 butG1161 heG848 himself shall be saved;G4982 yetG1161 soG3779 asG5613 byG1223 fire.G4442

Firstfruits
Dec 14th 2008, 05:15 PM
We also know that we are not to judge the works of men. The scripture you are referring to is talking about physical jobs. Essentially saying if you are too lazy to work then you don't deserve to eat.

Rom 4:4 NowG1161 to him that workethG2038 is theG3588 rewardG3408 notG3756 reckonedG3049 ofG2596 grace,G5485 butG235 ofG2596 debt.G3783
Rom 4:5 ButG1161 to him that workethG2038 not,G3361 butG1161 believethG4100 onG1909 him that justifiethG1344 theG3588 ungodly,G765 hisG848 faithG4102 is countedG3049 forG1519 righteousness.G1343
To me this re affirms the fact that works is NOT required in any way for salvation. A person who is saved will feel morally responsible to do good works in response to the salvation he has already recieved.


1Co 3:13 Every man'sG1538 workG2041 shall be madeG1096 manifest:G5318 forG1063 theG3588 dayG2250 shall declareG1213 it, becauseG3754 it shall be revealedG601 byG1722 fire;G4442 andG2532 theG3588 fireG4442 shall tryG1381 every man'sG1538 workG2041 of what sortG3697 it is.G2076
1Co 3:14 If any man'sG1536 workG2041 abideG3306 whichG3739 he hath built thereupon,G2026 he shall receiveG2983 a reward.G3408
1Co 3:15 If any man'sG1536 workG2041 shall be burned,G2618 he shall suffer loss:G2210 butG1161 heG848 himself shall be saved;G4982 yetG1161 soG3779 asG5613 byG1223 fire.G4442


I have said before and am sure we all agree, that works cannot save us, what we are looking at is if we do not do anything to show that we are Christs in the way we live, is it enough?

Jas 1:25 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=59&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=25) But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.

Firstfruits

4HeavensSake
Dec 14th 2008, 07:59 PM
I have said before and am sure we all agree, that works cannot save us, what we are looking at is if we do not do anything to show that we are Christs in the way we live, is it enough?

Jas 1:25 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=59&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=25) But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.

Firstfruits

I do believe that you will be blessed for doing the will of God. Blessed and Saved are not necessarily the same thing though.

I don't think it is possible to be saved if you truly let Jesus in, if you do he will start working. How much and to what degree is up to how much you cooperate with him. There should be a desire to do the will of God that progressively manifests in doing that will as you learn and grow in your relationship with Jesus.



Php 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

Firstfruits
Dec 15th 2008, 09:38 AM
I do believe that you will be blessed for doing the will of God. Blessed and Saved are not necessarily the same thing though.

I don't think it is possible to be saved if you truly let Jesus in, if you do he will start working. How much and to what degree is up to how much you cooperate with him. There should be a desire to do the will of God that progressively manifests in doing that will as you learn and grow in your relationship with Jesus.



Php 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.


Thanks 4HeavenSake,

Would you agree that the blessing for our work is included in the rewards Christ will give us when he returns?

Rev 22:12 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=22&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=12) And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

God bless!

Firstfruits

Slug1
Dec 15th 2008, 03:37 PM
Here's something I just read and reminded me of this thread:

Matthew 7:17 Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Therefore by their fruits you will know them.

So, a person who does absolutely no action, no works based on their faith fall's in which group? I'd say that group of the false prophets because their faith is not of God.

I'd say no fruit at all then leads us to what lukewarm means and that isn't good at all either... Rev 3:16.

So true faith, leads to true desire to do God's will which produces the fruit God wants to give Him glory.

Firstfruits
Dec 15th 2008, 04:06 PM
Here's something I just read and reminded me of this thread:

Matthew 7:17 Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Therefore by their fruits you will know them.

So, a person who does absolutely no action, no works based on their faith fall's in which group? I'd say that group of the false prophets because their faith is not of God.

I'd say no fruit at all then leads us to what lukewarm means and that isn't good at all either... Rev 3:16.

So true faith, leads to true desire to do God's will which produces the fruit God wants to give Him glory.




Thanks Slug1,

I have just noticed something in the scripture you have given;

A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit.

We have to believe that a bad tree can change as we were all bad fruit until we came to Christ, and if we look at it that way would the same apply to a good tree?

Just a thought :idea:

Firstfruits

Dani H
Dec 15th 2008, 05:29 PM
What we truly believe will always manifest itself in what we do, no matter what we say or think. If we're not doing it, then we don't believe it.

:)

Firstfruits
Dec 15th 2008, 07:24 PM
What we truly believe will always manifest itself in what we do, no matter what we say or think. If we're not doing it, then we don't believe it.

:)

Thanks DaniHanson,

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Thaddaeus
Dec 16th 2008, 05:13 AM
Ro 2:11 (http://bibleforums.org/ro+2:11)For there is no RESPECT OF PERSONS with God.

If faith is not enough by itself then Jesus lied to the man on the other cross Lu 23:43 (http://bibleforums.org/lu+23:43)And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me IN PARADISE.

and if this man got in without works then God not being a respect of person, shouldn't be able to deny anyone else who has no works

Ro 3:27 (http://bibleforums.org/ro+3:27)Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of WORKS? Nay: but by the law of faith.

we work because we are saved not to get saved

Firstfruits
Dec 16th 2008, 10:09 AM
Ro 2:11 (http://bibleforums.org/ro+2:11)For there is no RESPECT OF PERSONS with God.

If faith is not enough by itself then Jesus lied to the man on the other cross Lu 23:43 (http://bibleforums.org/lu+23:43)And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me IN PARADISE.

and if this man got in without works then God not being a respect of person, shouldn't be able to deny anyone else who has no works

Ro 3:27 (http://bibleforums.org/ro+3:27)Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of WORKS? Nay: but by the law of faith.

we work because we are saved not to get saved

I have said from the begining that works cannot save us, but we we need to show that we belong to Christ by the way we live/act.

Firstfruits

tt1106
Dec 18th 2008, 02:12 PM
The theif on the cross was washed clean. He repented and put his trust in Jesus. At that point he was Sanctified. God judged his Heart and found him to be a true believer, just as he will all of us. The true believers, the ones who have sought righteousness and devoted their lives to being IN Christ will be saved. The Ones who have not bowed to the will of God, will be cast away.

"Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Get away from me, you evildoers!'"

They did plenty of Good works in God's name. Jesus tells them that their works were not from the Heart and although they appeared to be righteous, they were not.

It is enough to believe, if you define belief as Jesus did. Belief comes from the promise and the Covenant with God. We must believe and our lives must reflect that we are slaves to Christ's will not our own.
If our lives don't reflect that, then we will not inherit the kingdom of God.
No amount of belief in Christ will overcome a life filled with sin, that demonstrates a lack of obedience to the prompting of the Holy Spirit.

Firstfruits
Dec 18th 2008, 03:07 PM
The theif on the cross was washed clean. He repented and put his trust in Jesus. At that point he was Sanctified. God judged his Heart and found him to be a true believer, just as he will all of us. The true believers, the ones who have sought righteousness and devoted their lives to being IN Christ will be saved. The Ones who have not bowed to the will of God, will be cast away.

"Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Get away from me, you evildoers!'"

They did plenty of Good works in God's name. Jesus tells them that their works were not from the Heart and although they appeared to be righteous, they were not.

It is enough to believe, if you define belief as Jesus did. Belief comes from the promise and the Covenant with God. We must believe and our lives must reflect that we are slaves to Christ's will not our own.
If our lives don't reflect that, then we will not inherit the kingdom of God.
No amount of belief in Christ will overcome a life filled with sin, that demonstrates a lack of obedience to the prompting of the Holy Spirit.

Is that with regards to the scriptures given?

Jas 2:19 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=59&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=19) Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
Jas 2:20 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=59&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=20) But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

Thank you!

Firstfruits

Thomas1621
Dec 18th 2008, 04:37 PM
Is that with regards to the scriptures given?

Jas 2:19 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=59&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=19) Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
Jas 2:20 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=59&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=20) But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

Thank you!

Firstfruits
Let me say this regarding the philosophy of believing Faith alone is all that is needed and faith is responsible for our good works through grace. Faith is without doubt the salvation of our Lord but good works are our responsibility to perform as He performed and as He requires us to perform with all those who sought His word. If Faith were in fact responsible for our good works most of us would be doing much more than we do, I promise you that and it would be far from comfortable. Do you perform good works to the potential you could or would you have to explain why at times you chose not to be there for someone in distress or even just to be helpful in some not so important way. When you perform a merciful work do you tell others so they know how Christian you are? And is that Christian? We are to Live as He taught us, not just claim the salvation as though it were the winnings from a lottery. While it is true that a person who has found that relationship with our Lord grows in faith, and good works become something that we want to perform because of that love and devotion, the works we perform is always a matter of choice and in themselves when performed for the right reasons give us additional grace. But not everyone who believes to be "Born Again" follows the same degree of effort in works. Some very little if at all, but merely judge others. For a person to proclaim they live up to their full potential of performing works for the love of others in the love of God is self-righteous and that can be very detrimental. Why? Because no one knows their full potential until they are tested by God and that is not a one-time thing. No one knows what those tests will be or if they will be able to pass those tests when the time comes. How many of us can embrace a leper or other mortally sick and contagious person, kiss them on their wounds, give up all they own and all the income they have, placing their very survival in God as people like Saint Francis did. How many people would (with no other solution) be able to pick a man up lying on the side walk barely able to walk on his own, soiled in his own vomit, excrement and/or urine with a stench you could smell 10 feet away, place him in your car on your cloth seat knowing it would absorb the soil with the odor permeating throughout the vehicle interior but ignoring the materialistic aspect just to take him to a hospital or shelter. Or would you rather give the man money for him to make it for care or shelter on his own? How many could leave their families for 6 months or a year to go to some foreign place to perform works of mercy for those devastated by drought, famine, or contagious diseases. How many of us raise our children with the responsibility and care God expects of us and do we realize what is expected of us? If one lives this kind of life, God bless and guide him or her in their pilgrimage. The fact is we don’t know our potential or limitations until those tests come up but what we do or should know, Satan is the father of Lies and to think we couldn’t fall to his deceit is foolish, he is very good at what he does and strives inexhaustibly to take each of us down the wrong path. It is our free will whether we search for the truth in Him, to know Him and to develop in the love and devotion He deserves from each of us. And it is our free will to choose how far we can go in our good works but we never can know if we are living up to our full potential for the love of God until we meet Him in our judgment. That is what all the teaching is about regarding Faith AND works. Oh and by the way, Grace builds in us as love does and LOVE gives us the strength to do some things we wouldn't do otherwise. When I say "you" I am speaking in general....

Firstfruits
Dec 18th 2008, 08:19 PM
Let me say this regarding the philosophy of believing Faith alone is all that is needed and faith is responsible for our good works through grace. Faith is without doubt the salvation of our Lord but good works are our responsibility to perform as He performed and as He requires us to perform with all those who sought His word. If Faith were in fact responsible for our good works most of us would be doing much more than we do, I promise you that and it would be far from comfortable. Do you perform good works to the potential you could or would you have to explain why at times you chose not to be there for someone in distress or even just to be helpful in some not so important way. When you perform a merciful work do you tell others so they know how Christian you are? And is that Christian? We are to Live as He taught us, not just claim the salvation as though it were the winnings from a lottery. While it is true that a person who has found that relationship with our Lord grows in faith, and good works become something that we want to perform because of that love and devotion, the works we perform is always a matter of choice and in themselves when performed for the right reasons give us additional grace. But not everyone who believes to be "Born Again" follows the same degree of effort in works. Some very little if at all, but merely judge others. For a person to proclaim they live up to their full potential of performing works for the love of others in the love of God is self-righteous and that can be very detrimental. Why? Because no one knows their full potential until they are tested by God and that is not a one-time thing. No one knows what those tests will be or if they will be able to pass those tests when the time comes. How many of us can embrace a leper or other mortally sick and contagious person, kiss them on their wounds, give up all they own and all the income they have, placing their very survival in God as people like Saint Francis did. How many people would (with no other solution) be able to pick a man up lying on the side walk barely able to walk on his own, soiled in his own vomit, excrement and/or urine with a stench you could smell 10 feet away, place him in your car on your cloth seat knowing it would absorb the soil with the odor permeating throughout the vehicle interior but ignoring the materialistic aspect just to take him to a hospital or shelter. Or would you rather give the man money for him to make it for care or shelter on his own? How many could leave their families for 6 months or a year to go to some foreign place to perform works of mercy for those devastated by drought, famine, or contagious diseases. How many of us raise our children with the responsibility and care God expects of us and do we realize what is expected of us? If one lives this kind of life, God bless and guide him or her in their pilgrimage. The fact is we don’t know our potential or limitations until those tests come up but what we do or should know, Satan is the father of Lies and to think we couldn’t fall to his deceit is foolish, he is very good at what he does and strives inexhaustibly to take each of us down the wrong path. It is our free will whether we search for the truth in Him, to know Him and to develop in the love and devotion He deserves from each of us. And it is our free will to choose how far we can go in our good works but we never can know if we are living up to our full potential for the love of God until we meet Him in our judgment. That is what all the teaching is about regarding Faith AND works. Oh and by the way, Grace builds in us as love does and LOVE gives us the strength to do some things we wouldn't do otherwise. When I say "you" I am speaking in general....

Thanks Thomas,

Just one thing, can you please try and separate you paragraphs to make it a bit easier to read.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

reformedct
Dec 18th 2008, 10:53 PM
Faith is more than believing

Faith is a deep conviction of what is true, and a trust in that truth

Faith is the evidence of things hoped for...

that does not mean that works are faith, it means that faith is based on evidence. blind belief is not faith and will not make someone feel passionate towards the lord

there was a Simpson scene where Homer was about to die and he said:

"Jesus, Buddah, Allah, i love you all!" lol

that is blind faith

blind faith says: well, if this is true i guess i better believe just in case. It says: jesus might really be real so i am going to believe in him in case he is


People will "believe" in any kind of name to cover their skin

this is why most modern day evangelism is so flawed. Everybody recites a prayer but few have deep conviction of what is true by the Spirit opening their eyes on God opening their hearts to recieve truth


True faith says: I am convinced this is true. I am so convinced i am willing to die for this conviction. This is the type of faith that is genuine and always produces works.

For example, if i am convinced Jesus forgave me and paid my sin debt, my true faith causes me to change in how i forgive others. Now i am more willing and ready to forgive people when they sinned against me because i am convinced i am forgiven.

Because of my faith i am willing to share ang give my possessions to those in need, because i am convinced that there awaits me a heavenly, eternal kingdom after this short, vain life.

also the object of your faith is important. what is it that you are convinced of? are you convinced Jesus forgives you of all sins, including future sins? then you will be willing and happy to forgive like crazy. If you feel you are only forgiven on a minute to minute basis, you may not be so willing to forgive thru love, but rather thru fear of committing the sin of unforgiveness (in my humble opinion)

some people have faith in a false christ, for example, the false christ that died for the sins of everyone even if they don't believe in him so that means everyone will go to heaven and there will be no one in hell. this is the universalist christ that is false.

So you must have true faith, which is based on conviction, and you must be sure that the object of your faith is indeed a real object

Thomas1621
Dec 19th 2008, 03:04 AM
Thanks Thomas,

Just one thing, can you please try and separate you paragraphs to make it a bit easier to read.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

You got it.....

Thomas1621
Dec 19th 2008, 03:23 AM
Faith is more than believing

Faith is a deep conviction of what is true, and a trust in that truth

Faith is the evidence of things hoped for. Beautifully Said...

that does not mean that works are faith, it means that faith is based on evidence. blind belief is not faith and will not make someone feel passionate towards the lord

there was a Simpson scene where Homer was about to die and he said:

"Jesus, Buddah, Allah, i love you all!" lol

that is blind faith

blind faith says: well, if this is true i guess i better believe just in case. It says: jesus might really be real so i am going to believe in him in case he is


People will "believe" in any kind of name to cover their skin

this is why most modern day evangelism is so flawed. Everybody recites a prayer but few have deep conviction of what is true by the Spirit opening their eyes on God opening their hearts to recieve truth


True faith says: I am convinced this is true. I am so convinced i am willing to die for this conviction. This is the type of faith that is genuine and always produces works.

For example, if i am convinced Jesus forgave me and paid my sin debt, my true faith causes me to change in how i forgive others. Now i am more willing and ready to forgive people when they sinned against me because i am convinced i am forgiven.

Because of my faith i am willing to share ang give my possessions to those in need, because i am convinced that there awaits me a heavenly, eternal kingdom after this short, vain life.

also the object of your faith is important. what is it that you are convinced of? are you convinced Jesus forgives you of all sins, including future sins? then you will be willing and happy to forgive like crazy. If you feel you are only forgiven on a minute to minute basis, you may not be so willing to forgive thru love, but rather thru fear of committing the sin of unforgiveness (in my humble opinion)

some people have faith in a false christ, for example, the false christ that died for the sins of everyone even if they don't believe in him so that means everyone will go to heaven and there will be no one in hell. this is the universalist christ that is false.

So you must have true faith, which is based on conviction, and you must be sure that the object of your faith is indeed a real object
You have pointed out the key in willingness. "Will" is a choice to do or not do something. The more grace we are blessed with, the stronger we are to perform the works we are confronted with and the more works we perform the closer we become to living as Christ did and teaches us to. But works are always dependent on the will and therefore performed honestly and from the heart in the love of Jesus. We never know our potential in performing works because we never know how we may be tested. And it is the test that determines the limitations we may set for ourselves... God bless those who reach no limitations for many have died in the name of our Lord.

My heart's Desire
Dec 19th 2008, 03:40 AM
I have said from the begining that works cannot save us, but we we need to show that we belong to Christ by the way we live/act.

FirstfruitsI don't believe we NEED to show we belong to Christ. I believe that IF we belong to Christ it Will show!

Firstfruits
Dec 19th 2008, 08:56 AM
I don't believe we NEED to show we belong to Christ. I believe that IF we belong to Christ it Will show!

Is that not the same thing?

Jn 13:35 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=35) By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Thomas1621
Dec 19th 2008, 12:33 PM
I don't believe we NEED to show we belong to Christ. I believe that IF we belong to Christ it Will show!

I would be interested in hearing what if anything you disagree with in post


http://bibleforums.org/showpost.php?p=1911290&postcount=36

My heart's Desire
Dec 20th 2008, 05:22 AM
I would be interested in hearing what if anything you disagree with in post


http://bibleforums.org/showpost.php?p=1911290&postcount=36
Sorry, not sure what you mean. If I answer the Op maybe it will answer your question.
I believe believing is enough to save. It has to be a personal trust in a personal Savior. Belief and faith is simply taking God at His Word. If He says believe by putting your trust in Him and you are saved that you have taken His Word for it.
Did He not say Come unto Me all who are burdened and heavy laden and I will give you rest? Or did He say Come all who are burdened and heavy laden and I will give you work?

Here something I just thought about to. We receive reward or loss for our works but the person themselves will be saved even by fire even though their work is burned up.
The original post I don't necessarily disagree with EXCEPT that the way it is worded is that if there are no works, there is no salvation. The verse about loss of works by fire and yet the person is saved makes me wonder what if the person has no works to burn? Would that one be any different than the one who had worthless works that were burned and yet he himself was saved? Both end up the same. Saved as if by fire.
I simply believe that if one is saved it shows in some way or the other sooner of later by one work or by many, but we cannot go by that as evidence.
Just as the op states "we are not saved by works" so I don't guess I disagree if that is their whole point.

StevenC
Dec 20th 2008, 07:08 AM
Lk 17:10 So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do.

Works are simply what we must do out of obedience to God. They are nothing for us to boast about.

-Steven

Thomas1621
Dec 20th 2008, 12:12 PM
Sorry, not sure what you mean. If I answer the Op maybe it will answer your question.
I believe believing is enough to save. It has to be a personal trust in a personal Savior. Belief and faith is simply taking God at His Word. If He says believe by putting your trust in Him and you are saved that you have taken His Word for it.
Did He not say Come unto Me all who are burdened and heavy laden and I will give you rest? Or did He say Come all who are burdened and heavy laden and I will give you work?

Here something I just thought about to. We receive reward or loss for our works but the person themselves will be saved even by fire even though their work is burned up.
The original post I don't necessarily disagree with EXCEPT that the way it is worded is that if there are no works, there is no salvation. The verse about loss of works by fire and yet the person is saved makes me wonder what if the person has no works to burn? Would that one be any different than the one who had worthless works that were burned and yet he himself was saved? Both end up the same. Saved as if by fire.
I simply believe that if one is saved it shows in some way or the other sooner of later by one work or by many, but we cannot go by that as evidence.
Just as the op states "we are not saved by works" so I don't guess I disagree if that is their whole point.

Some people say that if at one point in their lives they "accept Christ as their personal Savior," then they will get to heaven. They may lead good lives after this acceptance, but they think that living a good life is not necessary. Their salvation is certain. It cannot be undone. They just "know" for sure that they have been saved.

Did not Jesus say “…sell everything you have and follow me…” and also,
"Therefore my beloved, ... work out your own salvation with fear and trembling" (Philippians 2:12)
Paul was writing to people who were already "saved." They had accepted Jesus Christ, and yet Paul writes "work out your own salvation with fear and trembling." Paul himself was not certain about his own salvation. He said, "But I discipline my body and bring it into subjection, lest, when I have preached to others, I myself should become disqualified." (1 Corinthians 9:27)
Just before that he compares life to a race. He said to run in such a way that you obtain the prize. Thus the prize, salvation, is achieved, not by one decision, but by running the race, or keeping up the effort until the race is over. However, Paul was not certain about his own salvation. He hoped for it. "Through whom also we have access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God." (Romans 5:2)
"For we were saved in this hope, but hope that is seen is not hope; for why does one still hope for what he sees?" (Romans 8:24)
Paul warns against complacency. "Therefore let him who thinks he stands take heed lest he fall." (1 Corinthians 10:12)
Peter writes to people who have accepted Jesus Christ, and this is what he says about those who came to know Jesus and then go back to worldly ways again: "For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning. For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them." (2 Peter 2:20-21)
"Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but towards you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off." (Romans 11:22)
If the people to whom they were writing were already saved, then Peter would not have written that it would have been better for some not to have known the way of righteousness than to have turned away from it. In other words, Peter did not accept the idea of being saved just by accepting Jesus as their personal Savior and that was all that was needed. Paul wrote the same idea to the Romans.
Paul tells the Corinthians that they should judge nothing before the time, but that the Lord will praise each one when He comes. "But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged by you or by a human court. In fact, I do not even judge myself. For I know of nothing against myself, yet I am not justified by this; but He who judges me is the Lord. Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord comes, who will both bring to light the hidden things of darkness and reveal the counsels of the hearts. Then each one's praise will come from God.(1 Corinthians 4:3-5)
So we cannot judge ourselves as saved - the Lord is the One who does that.
And additional evidence is why did the Apostles live the lives they did in poverty and devotion to good works when they were already performing Gods work by teaching others? Was it not because He taught them this was how we were to live? Aren’t we also to emulate Him as closely as possible?

Firstfruits
Dec 20th 2008, 09:30 PM
Some people say that if at one point in their lives they "accept Christ as their personal Savior," then they will get to heaven. They may lead good lives after this acceptance, but they think that living a good life is not necessary. Their salvation is certain. It cannot be undone. They just "know" for sure that they have been saved.

Did not Jesus say “…sell everything you have and follow me…” and also,
"Therefore my beloved, ... work out your own salvation with fear and trembling" (Philippians 2:12)
Paul was writing to people who were already "saved." They had accepted Jesus Christ, and yet Paul writes "work out your own salvation with fear and trembling." Paul himself was not certain about his own salvation. He said, "But I discipline my body and bring it into subjection, lest, when I have preached to others, I myself should become disqualified." (1 Corinthians 9:27)
Just before that he compares life to a race. He said to run in such a way that you obtain the prize. Thus the prize, salvation, is achieved, not by one decision, but by running the race, or keeping up the effort until the race is over. However, Paul was not certain about his own salvation. He hoped for it. "Through whom also we have access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God." (Romans 5:2)
"For we were saved in this hope, but hope that is seen is not hope; for why does one still hope for what he sees?" (Romans 8:24)
Paul warns against complacency. "Therefore let him who thinks he stands take heed lest he fall." (1 Corinthians 10:12)
Peter writes to people who have accepted Jesus Christ, and this is what he says about those who came to know Jesus and then go back to worldly ways again: "For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning. For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them." (2 Peter 2:20-21)
"Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but towards you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off." (Romans 11:22)
If the people to whom they were writing were already saved, then Peter would not have written that it would have been better for some not to have known the way of righteousness than to have turned away from it. In other words, Peter did not accept the idea of being saved just by accepting Jesus as their personal Savior and that was all that was needed. Paul wrote the same idea to the Romans.
Paul tells the Corinthians that they should judge nothing before the time, but that the Lord will praise each one when He comes. "But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged by you or by a human court. In fact, I do not even judge myself. For I know of nothing against myself, yet I am not justified by this; but He who judges me is the Lord. Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord comes, who will both bring to light the hidden things of darkness and reveal the counsels of the hearts. Then each one's praise will come from God.(1 Corinthians 4:3-5)
So we cannot judge ourselves as saved - the Lord is the One who does that.
And additional evidence is why did the Apostles live the lives they did in poverty and devotion to good works when they were already performing Gods work by teaching others? Was it not because He taught them this was how we were to live? Aren’t we also to emulate Him as closely as possible?

From what you have said I take it that you agree that although works do not save us but with regards to this scripture and the OP the works we do are works of love?

Jn 13:35 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=35) By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.

1 Cor 15:58 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=46&CHAP=15&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=58) Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.

Eph 4:16 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=49&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=16) From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.

1 Thess 1:3 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=52&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=3)Remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labour of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father;

Heb 6:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=58&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10)For God is not unrighteous to forget your work and labour of love, which ye have shewed toward his name, in that ye have ministered to the saints, and do minister.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Thomas1621
Dec 21st 2008, 02:43 AM
From what you have said I take it that you agree that although works do not save us but with regards to this scripture and the OP the works we do are works of love?

Jn 13:35 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=35) By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.

1 Cor 15:58 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=46&CHAP=15&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=58) Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.

Eph 4:16 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=49&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=16) From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.

1 Thess 1:3 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=52&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=3)Remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labour of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father;

Heb 6:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=58&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10)For God is not unrighteous to forget your work and labour of love, which ye have shewed toward his name, in that ye have ministered to the saints, and do minister.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Yes, they are works of love, no question. And it remains our free will to choose to perform or not, of which God will determine our sincerity when the time comes. It is He through His life and teachings who He desires us to emulate. That is our part of the covenant.

neverleaveunorfors
Dec 21st 2008, 02:51 AM
Just what is good works ? love ,compassion for one another ,not judgemental, putting yourself in someone elses shoes, try to understand y people act in the ways they do, puting others first before yourself, content ,not wanting , remember store up your treasures in heaven do the will of God and remember his will for u maybe or is different than his will for some one else Love God first and others better than yourself .Go out of your way to helping someoneelse ,not expecting any thing in return things happen for a reason . love all James

BCF
Dec 21st 2008, 03:16 AM
I look at it this way... once you put faith in Jesus Christ you're past the freewill part of life. Now it's obedience or disobedience and once you have "freely" chosen to serve and worship God, He's gonna use you. This "use" of you produces fruit by whatever works He leads you to do. You either do it (obedience) or you don't do it (disobedience).

If you don't do it... ever... is that faith real?

Yeah....but how do you be obedient or disobedient to God.....if you don't make a choice to do one or the other?

If you don't have a choice in the matter.....you will always be obedient to God and never be disobedient, and if you are always obedient.....then you don't need Grace....cause you never do wrong.

So how does Faith fit into any of that?

Slug1
Dec 21st 2008, 03:58 AM
Yeah....but how do you be obedient or disobedient to God.....if you don't make a choice to do one or the other?

If you don't have a choice in the matter.....you will always be obedient to God and never be disobedient, and if you are always obedient.....then you don't need Grace....cause you never do wrong.

So how does Faith fit into any of that?Huh?

Faith is what allows God to begin to use a person :P

If a person doesn't allow God to use them, then what use is the faith they have?

I hope this addressed your post :hmm:

I can imagine God looking down and pointing at 3 people in 3 different churches.

"You, you, and you... I don't want you to be Pew Warmers any longer, all of ya's will now serve in the new Feed the Homeless Ministry that I have had your pastor stand up in each of your chruches."

2 are obedient and the fruit they produce brings glory to God and they receive blessings for their work.

That one that was disobedient and remains a pew warmer, I'm sure God will approach them again in time and if they continuously say no and are disobedient to the will of God, I don't see anything stopping God from trimming them off the vine. Thus it seems it's these types of people that stop going to church cause they're not satisfied with what God has to offer them, they fall away and seek other fulfillment.

All they had to do was be obedient to the will of God and they'd see God working through them. They'd feel God's presence as they reached out to those homeless people and gave them their time and the love that shines Christ through them. They'd see the smiles on those homeless peoples faces, hear their thank you's, talk about Jesus with them etc. This would make them satisfied, this would make them feel fulfilled, this would make them praise God and strengthen their faith in Him as their "work" lifted Glory up to God.

But they don't receive these blessings cause they basically said no and were disobedient to God's will and they stray away cause based on the scripture brought forward in this thread, God cut them off the vine.

I've seen it enough and I can't make a person obedient to God as I've exhausted myself talking, trying to talk sense into them.

BCF
Dec 21st 2008, 04:36 AM
Huh?

Faith is what allows God to begin to use a person :P

If a person doesn't allow God to use them, then what use is the faith they have?

I hope this addressed your post :hmm:

I can imagine God looking down and pointing at 3 people in 3 different churches.

"You, you, and you... I don't want you to be Pew Warmers any longer, all of ya's will now serve in the new Feed the Homeless Ministry that I have had your pastor stand up in each of your chruches."

2 are obedient and the fruit they produce brings glory to God and they receive blessings for their work.

That one that was disobedient and remains a pew warmer, I'm sure God will approach them again in time and if they continuously say no and are disobedient to the will of God, I don't see anything stopping God from trimming them off the vine. Thus it seems it's these types of people that stop going to church cause they're not satisfied with what God has to offer them, they fall away and seek other fulfillment.

All they had to do was be obedient to the will of God and they'd see God working through them. They'd feel God's presence as they reached out to those homeless people and gave them their time and the love that shines Christ through them. They'd see the smiles on those homeless peoples faces, hear their thank you's, talk about Jesus with them etc. This would make them satisfied, this would make them feel fulfilled, this would make them praise God and strengthen their faith in Him as their "work" lifted Glory up to God.

But they don't receive these blessings cause they basically said no and were disobedient to God's will and they stray away cause based on the scripture brought forward in this thread, God cut them off the vine.

I've seen it enough and I can't make a person obedient to God as I've exhausted myself talking, trying to talk sense into them.

Ah....I understand what you are saying. I was just wondering how someone could be obedient or disobedient to God without making a choice to do so.

That's all.....sorry for the headache:lol:

Dave

My heart's Desire
Dec 21st 2008, 05:24 AM
Some people say that if at one point in their lives they "accept Christ as their personal Savior," then they will get to heaven. They may lead good lives after this acceptance, but they think that living a good life is not necessary. Their salvation is certain. It cannot be undone. They just "know" for sure that they have been saved.

Did not Jesus say “…sell everything you have and follow me…” and also,
"Therefore my beloved, ... work out your own salvation with fear and trembling" (Philippians 2:12)
Paul was writing to people who were already "saved." They had accepted Jesus Christ, and yet Paul writes "work out your own salvation with fear and trembling." Paul himself was not certain about his own salvation. He said, "But I discipline my body and bring it into subjection, lest, when I have preached to others, I myself should become disqualified." (1 Corinthians 9:27)
Just before that he compares life to a race. He said to run in such a way that you obtain the prize. Thus the prize, salvation, is achieved, not by one decision, but by running the race, or keeping up the effort until the race is over. However, Paul was not certain about his own salvation. He hoped for it. "Through whom also we have access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God." (Romans 5:2)
"For we were saved in this hope, but hope that is seen is not hope; for why does one still hope for what he sees?" (Romans 8:24)
Paul warns against complacency. "Therefore let him who thinks he stands take heed lest he fall." (1 Corinthians 10:12)
Peter writes to people who have accepted Jesus Christ, and this is what he says about those who came to know Jesus and then go back to worldly ways again: "For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning. For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them." (2 Peter 2:20-21)
"Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but towards you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off." (Romans 11:22)
If the people to whom they were writing were already saved, then Peter would not have written that it would have been better for some not to have known the way of righteousness than to have turned away from it. In other words, Peter did not accept the idea of being saved just by accepting Jesus as their personal Savior and that was all that was needed. Paul wrote the same idea to the Romans.
Paul tells the Corinthians that they should judge nothing before the time, but that the Lord will praise each one when He comes. "But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged by you or by a human court. In fact, I do not even judge myself. For I know of nothing against myself, yet I am not justified by this; but He who judges me is the Lord. Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord comes, who will both bring to light the hidden things of darkness and reveal the counsels of the hearts. Then each one's praise will come from God.(1 Corinthians 4:3-5)
So we cannot judge ourselves as saved - the Lord is the One who does that.
And additional evidence is why did the Apostles live the lives they did in poverty and devotion to good works when they were already performing Gods work by teaching others? Was it not because He taught them this was how we were to live? Aren’t we also to emulate Him as closely as possible?
True faith will do that you know. If one REALLY believes in what the Lord has promised then Yes, they DO just know they are saved.
If we cannot judge ourselves as saved, by believing that the Lord Jesus said He would, then we don't really believe Him.There really is a difference between being saved and living in fellowship with Him afterwards. There is a difference in instructions for being a disciple also. Some verses speak of salvation, some of fellowship and some of discipleship.
Paul's prize was not salvation, but crowns or rewards. He already had God's seal of ownership for salvation.
You're still trying to prove verses say we are saved by works, our performance and our behaviour instead of simple faith in the work of Christ

Firstfruits
Dec 21st 2008, 11:23 AM
Huh?

Faith is what allows God to begin to use a person :P

If a person doesn't allow God to use them, then what use is the faith they have?

I hope this addressed your post :hmm:

I can imagine God looking down and pointing at 3 people in 3 different churches.

"You, you, and you... I don't want you to be Pew Warmers any longer, all of ya's will now serve in the new Feed the Homeless Ministry that I have had your pastor stand up in each of your chruches."

2 are obedient and the fruit they produce brings glory to God and they receive blessings for their work.

That one that was disobedient and remains a pew warmer, I'm sure God will approach them again in time and if they continuously say no and are disobedient to the will of God, I don't see anything stopping God from trimming them off the vine. Thus it seems it's these types of people that stop going to church cause they're not satisfied with what God has to offer them, they fall away and seek other fulfillment.

All they had to do was be obedient to the will of God and they'd see God working through them. They'd feel God's presence as they reached out to those homeless people and gave them their time and the love that shines Christ through them. They'd see the smiles on those homeless peoples faces, hear their thank you's, talk about Jesus with them etc. This would make them satisfied, this would make them feel fulfilled, this would make them praise God and strengthen their faith in Him as their "work" lifted Glory up to God.

But they don't receive these blessings cause they basically said no and were disobedient to God's will and they stray away cause based on the scripture brought forward in this thread, God cut them off the vine.

I've seen it enough and I can't make a person obedient to God as I've exhausted myself talking, trying to talk sense into them.

We must first have that faith, and we did not always believe;

Rom 11:32 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=11&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=32) For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

To all that believe, we are taught to show love to one another.

1 Thess 3:12 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=52&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=12) And the Lord make you to increase and abound in love one toward another, and toward all men, even as we do toward you:

Philem 1:5 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=57&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=5) Hearing of thy love and faith, which thou hast toward the Lord Jesus, and toward all saints;

Heb 6:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=58&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) For God is not unrighteous to forget your work and labour of love, which ye have shewed toward his name, in that ye have ministered to the saints, and do minister.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Thomas1621
Dec 22nd 2008, 12:02 AM
You're still trying to prove verses say we are saved by works, our performance and our behaviour instead of simple faith in the work of Christ

No, not at all. We are saved by the Blood of our Lord. What I am saying is only that which He asked of us in this covenant. To love others as we love ourselves and show it through charitable works of mercy emulating what He taught and asked of us. Do I have this wrong or did He not want this from us?

Man-ofGod
Dec 22nd 2008, 02:55 AM
What are the works that these scriptures are refering to?

Jas 2:19 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=59&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=19) Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
Jas 2:20 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=59&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=20) But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
Jas 2:21 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=59&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=21) Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
Jas 2:22 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=59&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=22) Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
Jas 2:23 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=59&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=23) And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
Jas 2:24 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=59&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=24) Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Jas 1:22 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=59&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=22) But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
Jas 1:23 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=59&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=23) For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:
Jas 1:25 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=59&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=25) But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.

Let be known that this is not saying that works will save us, as I am sure we all know how we are saved, but is it enough just to believe, is it enough just to have faith?

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Your absolutely right. The 10 commandments is still meant to be followed to this day. We are required to walk in the steps of Jesus. Jesus followed the 10 commandments. Therefore, we all must do so. Belief in Jesus allows to do just that, out of love for our creator.

My heart's Desire
Dec 22nd 2008, 03:43 AM
No, not at all. We are saved by the Blood of our Lord. What I am saying is only that which He asked of us in this covenant. To love others as we love ourselves and show it through charitable works of mercy emulating what He taught and asked of us. Do I have this wrong or did He not want this from us?
Yes, you are right as long as it relates to the salvation we already have and not in order to keep, gain or to continue in salvation.

Firstfruits
Dec 22nd 2008, 12:32 PM
Yes, you are right as long as it relates to the salvation we already have and not in order to keep, gain or to continue in salvation.

I hope we are in agreement that we are not saved by works, but that what we do are works of love as commanded by Christ.

God bless you!

Veretax
Dec 22nd 2008, 12:47 PM
It means it's a dead faith. One who has faith but no works is an unprofitable servant. Once we're saved we are saved unto good works. If we go do good works then we are profitable and will be rewarded in a positive way. If we choose not to do good works and choose to be unprofitable, then we will be rewarded in a negative way. Regardless of what works we do or do not do, we can not get saved or unsaved by the works that we do, for salvation is by grace through faith alone and not of works.


I agree with Rufus. james is making it clear Faith in Christ is a living faith, and a Living faith is going to produce. A dead faith will not produce. Why do we see the examples of Abraham, or Rahab being found justified by their works and counted to righteousness, because works demonstrate the heart condition, they demonstrate faith. If your faith is not being demonstrated then there is ample reason why you or others watching you may question your beliefs. Faith will produce, it will also exhibit the fruits of the spirit because those who have the true living faith also have the same spirit.

Thomas1621
Dec 22nd 2008, 02:19 PM
Yes, you are right as long as it relates to the salvation we already have and not in order to keep, gain or to continue in salvation.

Do you believe you can perform or fail to perform in such a way that you can reject your salvation?

My heart's Desire
Dec 23rd 2008, 02:10 AM
Do you believe you can perform or fail to perform in such a way that you can reject your salvation?
No, I don't because my salvation is not based on what I do or how I perform. It is based on the performance of Jesus Christ and His work on the Cross as the perfect sacrifice for ME. Not just my sin, but for me. You know, when thinking of the Book of James, I can't help but think of the many people with means out there that do charitable things and have foundations and help people. Not all will claim to even be Christian and yet they do works. But just as faith without works is dead, Works without faith is dead more so.

Thomas1621
Dec 23rd 2008, 03:29 AM
No, I don't because my salvation is not based on what I do or how I perform. It is based on the performance of Jesus Christ and His work on the Cross as the perfect sacrifice for ME. Not just my sin, but for me. You know, when thinking of the Book of James, I can't help but think of the many people with means out there that do charitable things and have foundations and help people. Not all will claim to even be Christian and yet they do works. But just as faith without works is dead, Works without faith is dead more so.

This I agree with 100% . And I agree that Faith must be sincerely present and the Love of God before works are even viable. No question there.
But in considering all that Jesus taught us, it should be obvious that we are to emulate Him in the compassion and love He lived by to others. He certainly said it enough times and I am sure you know many verses that proclaim these things so there is no need to quote them. IMO it is what He askes of us in loving each other as ourselves and living in charity and humility. Perhaps you could say our part of the covenant He made between Him and us.

My heart's Desire
Dec 23rd 2008, 03:36 AM
This I agree with 100% . And I agree that Faith must be sincerely present and the Love of God before works are even viable. No question there.
But in considering all that Jesus taught us, it should be obvious that we are to emulate Him in the compassion and love He lived by to others. He certainly said it enough times and I am sure you know many verses that proclaim these things so there is no need to quote them. IMO it is what He askes of us in loving each other as ourselves and living in charity and humility. Perhaps you could say our part of the covenant He made between Him and us.
I suppose we agree on works then, that they are part of being saved and yet do not determine the security of salvation for salvation is based on faith and not on the works.

reformedct
Dec 23rd 2008, 03:56 AM
This I agree with 100% . And I agree that Faith must be sincerely present and the Love of God before works are even viable. No question there.
But in considering all that Jesus taught us, it should be obvious that we are to emulate Him in the compassion and love He lived by to others. He certainly said it enough times and I am sure you know many verses that proclaim these things so there is no need to quote them. IMO it is what He askes of us in loving each other as ourselves and living in charity and humility. Perhaps you could say our part of the covenant He made between Him and us.


yes we are saved by faith not works

yes "our part" is to love one another

however let us remember who is truly responsible for "our part":

"it is God at work in you to will and to do according to his will"

yes it is "our part" but God gets all the glory. Even the love and good that we have/do is a result of God at work in our fractured human bodies, sanctifying us. So lets make sure we understand that God gets the credit for our good works

Veretax
Dec 23rd 2008, 12:22 PM
This I agree with 100% . And I agree that Faith must be sincerely present and the Love of God before works are even viable. No question there.
But in considering all that Jesus taught us, it should be obvious that we are to emulate Him in the compassion and love He lived by to others. He certainly said it enough times and I am sure you know many verses that proclaim these things so there is no need to quote them. IMO it is what He askes of us in loving each other as ourselves and living in charity and humility. Perhaps you could say our part of the covenant He made between Him and us.

Here's the question though. Do we as Christians try to emulate Jesus? That is do we try to act like him, or do we begin to act like him because of the transformative change that happens in our hearts after the Holy Spirit indwells us? I am of the opinion that it is the later.

Thomas1621
Dec 23rd 2008, 02:45 PM
Here's the question though. Do we as Christians try to emulate Jesus? That is do we try to act like him, or do we begin to act like him because of the transformative change that happens in our hearts after the Holy Spirit indwells us? I am of the opinion that it is the later.

It is very true that the Grace of God strengthens us and gives us the direction and the more Grace we recieve the stronger we become in His service. We must always recognize it is He who shows us the way.
We also must recognize that God blessed us with the freedom of will to love Him and follow Him out of choice also. It is understandable why this would be. Just as to find love with someone in this mortal life is first a matter of interest, then choosing to learn and to know more about them followed by the desire to join with them in the path of life, so too does our Lord want it to be us who chooses willingly to learn and know Him and seek that relationship in Him as He loves us. It is through the willingness we find sincerity of heart. It would be worthless if it were forced upon us and certainly lack sincerity. So too does He allow us to retain our free will once we have entered that relationship with Him so that we always are expressing our will to remain in Him and serve Him as He taught us. However, in having that free will, we should never forget we become vulnerable to the works of satan. I myself believe it is our free will to choose to do as He taught and because we choose Him it is the additional Grace He gives us through the Holy Spirit that strengthens us to be able to fight sin and continue in that path.

Firstfruits
Dec 24th 2008, 03:30 PM
Here's the question though. Do we as Christians try to emulate Jesus? That is do we try to act like him, or do we begin to act like him because of the transformative change that happens in our hearts after the Holy Spirit indwells us? I am of the opinion that it is the later.

Do we have the mind of Christ?

Rom 15:5 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=15&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=5) Now the God of patience and consolation grant you to be likeminded one toward another according to Christ Jesus:

1 Cor 2:16 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=46&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=16) For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.

Jn 14:12 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=14&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=12) Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

Just as Christ worked we also will or should work.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Veretax
Dec 24th 2008, 03:43 PM
Do we have the mind of Christ?

Rom 15:5 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=15&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=5) Now the God of patience and consolation grant you to be likeminded one toward another according to Christ Jesus:

1 Cor 2:16 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=46&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=16) For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.

Jn 14:12 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=14&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=12) Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

Just as Christ worked we also will or should work.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

I asked the question because I believe it was instructive. Do we walk according to our own ability in mind, emotion, and physicallity? Or do we walk by The Spirit? I believe the bible says for believers it is by The Spirit, and because of that, I believe that because we walk after The Spirit that change will come because our focus is on The Spirit, on Christ, on God not on other things.

When I became saved, profane speech basically left me. I had no desire to speak such, I had no desire to be unkind, even to them who tormented me in middle and high school. My entire path had in essence reversed course and it was All done by God's Holy Spirit working within me, because there is no way I could have done all that on my own.

Firstfruits
Dec 24th 2008, 04:10 PM
I asked the question because I believe it was instructive. Do we walk according to our own ability in mind, emotion, and physicallity? Or do we walk by The Spirit? I believe the bible says for believers it is by The Spirit, and because of that, I believe that because we walk after The Spirit that change will come because our focus is on The Spirit, on Christ, on God not on other things.

When I became saved, profane speech basically left me. I had no desire to speak such, I had no desire to be unkind, even to them who tormented me in middle and high school. My entire path had in essence reversed course and it was All done by God's Holy Spirit working within me, because there is no way I could have done all that on my own.

So you have changed from works of unrighteousness to works of righteousness, yes?

Firstfruits

Veretax
Dec 24th 2008, 04:35 PM
So you have changed from works of unrighteousness to works of righteousness, yes?

Firstfruits



Its not just works though my entire mind was transformed. I think differently now then I did then too.

Firstfruits
Dec 24th 2008, 08:57 PM
Its not just works though my entire mind was transformed. I think differently now then I did then too.

Thanks Veretax,

So Faith and works go hand in hand, so that our faith is not dead as it is without works.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Dec 26th 2008, 01:26 PM
With regards to the parable of the Talents, does Christ expect us to do nothing with our faith or put it to good use?

Matthew 25:14-30

God bless you!

Firstfruits

reformedct
Dec 26th 2008, 04:47 PM
With regards to the parable of the Talents, does Christ expect us to do nothing with our faith or put it to good use?

Matthew 25:14-30

God bless you!

Firstfruits


doing something with our faith is not an option. it is a command and an automatic action if we truly have faith and love Jesus. If we love Him, why would we sit around and do nothinig for His name? All true Christians have works that overflow from genuine faith. Those who are wicked yet claim to have faith are like the guy who hid his talent in the ground. same as the branch that produces no fruit, same as the field that yields no ccrop

Alaska
Dec 26th 2008, 08:00 PM
The inseparability between faith and the works connected to faith made it unnecessary for Paul to even use the word "works" like James did in James 2:
14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Seeing that both of these men, James and Paul, were in full agreement concerning truth, it is clearly understood that when Paul refers to being justified by faith he takes for granted his listeners had enough basic understanding to know that that faith he is talking about is the faith the Apostles taught, which is inseperable from the works connected to it.

So for Paul to say we are justified by faith it is understood to mean exactly the same thing that James wrote above by virtue of the fact that "the faith" cannot be parted from the works which "the faith" deems necessary to do in order to be "in" that faith.


OK, lets do a little test here. We are talking to a "saved.. not of works" advocate.
Question 1) So you didn't need to do anything to be saved?
Answer: Well, I didn't say that, I mean of course I had to believe and accept and repent and pray.
Question 2) So its not true then that you are "saved... not of works" is it?
Answer: Well, I didn't say that either.
Question 3) So do you really mean that you are not saved by works other than the works of believing accepting repenting and praying? If those things are necessary, isn't it a false statement to make the claim that works aren't necessary to be saved?
Answer: Hey you are getting me mixed up here. Everybody at church says "saved... not of works". I think they mean we don't have to think about having to obey rules like in the OT.
Question 4) Aren't believing, accepting, repenting and praying rules that you agreed you had to do in order to get saved?
Answer/Question: I have to admit, that makes sense. Let me ask you a question then. What did Paul mean when he said "saved... not of works"?
Answer: By understanding how that by leaving out part of a context of what is written, that this can result in producing a meaning opposite to what the full context is actually saying, the answer to your question is that Paul did not say that. That is an out-of-context perversion of what Paul wrote and meant in the real full context.
Below is a helpful explanation of the context and meaning of Eph. 2:8-10, which is the context from which the crime of twisting Paul's words is derived.



Jesus came to change us and if anyones definition of saved separates 'saved' from being changed, then that is a false salvation.

The very evidence of the Holy Ghost is that it causes us to not do that which we normally in and of ourselves would do.
This control the Holy Ghost is supposed to have over us is the basis for us being able to say that this state of being changed or saved is not of ourselves lest we should boast but rather of Him who lives in us and is responsible for that control and change.

Evidence of deception, with regard to promoting a false gospel, is the use of Eph. 2:8,9 with verse 10 left off.
That's right, when someone uses 8,9, you can be sure they are promoting false doctrine because they are leaving off part of the necessary context that qualifies what is meant by the part they are using.
Leaving off part of the context can cause the meaning to be OPPOSITE to that which the entire context is in actual fact saying.

For example, let me tell you a lie that results from omission of part of the entire sentence that creates an opposite conclusion to that which the entire sentence is actually saying:

His house was acquired, not by money...

By leaving the rest of the context out, I can still conclude a reasonable meaning to the words there as they stand. I can reasonably conclude that the house was given him as a gift or by inheritance and that money was not involved in getting the house.
Let me now add the rest of the sentence to show that the real truth is that money was in very fact necessary for him to get that house, which is OPPOSITE to what it appears to say when the context is omitted:

His house was acquired, not by money that he earned.

That is what has been done to Paul's words; they are taken out of context and a conclusion opposite to reality is concluded by that omission.

Saved... not by works

Saved... not by works that we can take credit for because it is God that works in us to do his good pleasure.

The change in our behaviour is not of ourselves. Those works are accomplished as the result of faith and grace, which is power, whereby we become "His workmanship", Christ in us the hope of glory.

Eph. 2:8-10
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Not of works, lest any man should boast.
For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

See the cheap dirty trick Satan has used to pervert Paul's words we see above and make the antichrist declaration that action or works have nothing to do with justification/salvation?

James 2:24
"Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only"?



http://bibleforums.org/images/misc/progress.gif

Firstfruits
Dec 26th 2008, 09:12 PM
doing something with our faith is not an option. it is a command and an automatic action if we truly have faith and love Jesus. If we love Him, why would we sit around and do nothinig for His name? All true Christians have works that overflow from genuine faith. Those who are wicked yet claim to have faith are like the guy who hid his talent in the ground. same as the branch that produces no fruit, same as the field that yields no ccrop

Thanks Reformedct,

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Dec 26th 2008, 09:14 PM
The inseparability between faith and the works connected to faith made it unnecessary for Paul to even use the word "works" like James did in James 2:
14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Seeing that both of these men, James and Paul, were in full agreement concerning truth, it is clearly understood that when Paul refers to being justified by faith he takes for granted his listeners had enough basic understanding to know that that faith he is talking about is the faith the Apostles taught, which is inseperable from the works connected to it.

So for Paul to say we are justified by faith it is understood to mean exactly the same thing that James wrote above by virtue of the fact that "the faith" cannot be parted from the works which "the faith" deems necessary to do in order to be "in" that faith.


OK, lets do a little test here. We are talking to a "saved.. not of works" advocate.
Question 1) So you didn't need to do anything to be saved?
Answer: Well, I didn't say that, I mean of course I had to believe and accept and repent and pray.
Question 2) So its not true then that you are "saved... not of works" is it?
Answer: Well, I didn't say that either.
Question 3) So do you really mean that you are not saved by works other than the works of believing accepting repenting and praying? If those things are necessary, isn't it a false statement to make the claim that works aren't necessary to be saved?
Answer: Hey you are getting me mixed up here. Everybody at church says "saved... not of works". I think they mean we don't have to think about having to obey rules like in the OT.
Question 4) Aren't believing, accepting, repenting and praying rules that you agreed you had to do in order to get saved?
Answer/Question: I have to admit, that makes sense. Let me ask you a question then. What did Paul mean when he said "saved... not of works"?
Answer: By understanding how that by leaving out part of a context of what is written, that this can result in producing a meaning opposite to what the full context is actually saying, the answer to your question is that Paul did not say that. That is an out-of-context perversion of what Paul wrote and meant in the real full context.
Below is a helpful explanation of the context and meaning of Eph. 2:8-10, which is the context from which the crime of twisting Paul's words is derived.




Thank you Alaska,

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Thomas1621
Dec 26th 2008, 10:44 PM
I asked the question because I believe it was instructive. Do we walk according to our own ability in mind, emotion, and physicallity? Or do we walk by The Spirit? I believe the bible says for believers it is by The Spirit, and because of that, I believe that because we walk after The Spirit that change will come because our focus is on The Spirit, on Christ, on God not on other things.

When I became saved, profane speech basically left me. I had no desire to speak such, I had no desire to be unkind, even to them who tormented me in middle and high school. My entire path had in essence reversed course and it was All done by God's Holy Spirit working within me, because there is no way I could have done all that on my own.

Do you believe you do these works because you choose to do so due to your Faith and love of God or do you believe you have no control over choosing to do them? The point is if you choose to do them you could also choose at some point not to, lets say something that occurs that somehow directs you to fall to sin. If you consider all the verses in the gospel that advise, direct or request that each of us perform works, it stands to reason that first, it would be unnecessary to even mention these suggestions or directions if it was all up to the Holy Spirit and not a matter of choice, and secondly, the fact we are "instructed" to perform good works it is a matter of our choosing to follow such a path and not an automatic non voluntary response to being saved. It is not until one has received the Holy Spirit that we are "saved" but once saved to realize and choose to follow the path laid out for us.

Firstfruits
Dec 27th 2008, 02:41 PM
I asked the question because I believe it was instructive. Do we walk according to our own ability in mind, emotion, and physicallity? Or do we walk by The Spirit? I believe the bible says for believers it is by The Spirit, and because of that, I believe that because we walk after The Spirit that change will come because our focus is on The Spirit, on Christ, on God not on other things.

When I became saved, profane speech basically left me. I had no desire to speak such, I had no desire to be unkind, even to them who tormented me in middle and high school. My entire path had in essence reversed course and it was All done by God's Holy Spirit working within me, because there is no way I could have done all that on my own.

Hello Veretax,

As long as you walk in the Spirit, then you have self control, you have self will, you have temperance.

2 Pet 1:6 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=61&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=6) And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;

You therefore do that which you do, by your our own choice.

Firstfruits

Thomas1621
Dec 27th 2008, 08:54 PM
The importance of Works not to be mistaken;

Matthew CH: 24
42 25 (http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0839/#$38Y) Therefore, stay awake! For you do not know on which day your Lord will come. 43 Be sure of this: if the master of the house had known the hour of night when the thief was coming, he would have stayed awake and not let his house be broken into. 44 So too, you also must be prepared, for at an hour you do not expect, the Son of Man will come. 45 26 (http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0839/#$38Z) 27 (http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0839/#$390) "Who, then, is the faithful and prudent servant, whom the master has put in charge of his household to distribute to them their food at the proper time? 46 Blessed is that servant whom his master on his arrival finds doing so. 47 Amen, I say to you, he will put him in charge of all his property. 48 28 (http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0839/#$391) But if that wicked servant says to himself, 'My master is long delayed,' 49 and begins to beat his fellow servants, and eat and drink with drunkards, 50 the servant's master will come on an unexpected day and at an unknown hour 51 and will punish him severely 29 (http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0839/#$392) and assign him a place with the hypocrites, where there will be wailing and grinding of teeth.
Matthew CH: 25
31 14 (http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0839/#$39G) "When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit upon his glorious throne, 32 and all the nations 15 (http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0839/#$39H) will be assembled before him. And he will separate them one from another, as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will place the sheep on his right and the goats on his left. 34 Then the king will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father. Inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, a stranger and you welcomed me, 36 naked and you clothed me, ill and you cared for me, in prison and you visited me.' 37 Then the righteous 16 (http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0839/#$39I) will answer him and say, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? 39 When did we see you ill or in prison, and visit you?' 40 And the king will say to them in reply, 'Amen, I say to you, whatever you did for one of these least brothers of mine, you did for me.' 41 17 (http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0839/#$39J) Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you accursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, 43 a stranger and you gave me no welcome, naked and you gave me no clothing, ill and in prison, and you did not care for me.' 44 18 (http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0839/#$39K) Then they will answer and say, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or ill or in prison, and not minister to your needs?' 45 He will answer them, 'Amen, I say to you, what you did not do for one of these least ones, you did not do for me.' 46 And these will go off to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

The Parson
Dec 27th 2008, 10:13 PM
Gee whiz, I thought the entire premise was that we have works because of our faith. Hmmm...

Thomas1621
Dec 27th 2008, 10:36 PM
Gee whiz, I thought the entire premise was that we have works because of our faith. Hmmm...

Faith and works obviously together. I would venture to say, It is as it says. There really would not have been any point to all the declarations of Jesus and the Apostles in their teachings if it were an automatic response to do works once we received the Holy Spirit. It is a matter of choice and with sincerity of the heart they are to be performed according to scripture. I find that logical myself.

Alaska
Dec 27th 2008, 11:00 PM
Gee whiz, I thought the entire premise was that we have works because of our faith. Hmmm...

Is it not also true that we have faith because of our works?
Are not hearing and reading works that result in faith?

Romans 10:
17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

This applies not only to initial faith but also the increase of faith as a believer.

Being odedient (works) to Jesus will also produce faith:
John 7:
17 If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.

I don't think you would disagree with the relationship faith and works have with each other as far as that goes.
The real issue for many who I believe have been taught incorrectly is the inseparability faith and works have in the context of salvation.

James made it absolutely clear that faith and works cannot be separated with regards to salvation any more than the body can be separated from its spirit with regards to life.
The incorrect teaching I refer to is the absurd accusation that Paul taught differently than James and somehow made salvation separate from and independent from works.
Well, if you can remove the spirit from a body and it will continue to live, then yeah, you can remove works from faith and continue in salvation. I suggest that you read post 73 on page 5 for clarification of the heresy I am attacking.

The Parson
Dec 27th 2008, 11:13 PM
Is it not also true that we have faith because of our works?
Are not hearing and reading works that result in faith?

Romans 10:
17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

This applies not only to initial faith but also the increase of faith as a believer.

Being odedient (works) to Jesus will also produce faith:
John 7:
17 If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.

I don't think you would disagree with the relationship faith and works have with each other as far as that goes.
The real issue for many who I believe have been taught incorrectly is the inseparability faith and works have in the context of salvation.

James made it absolutely clear that faith and works cannot be separated with regards to salvation any more than the body can be separated from its spirit with regards to life.
The incorrect teaching I refer to is the absurd accusation that Paul taught differently than James and somehow made salvation separate from and independent from works.
Well, if you can remove the spirit from a body and it will continue to live, then yeah, you can remove works from faith and continue in salvation. I suggest that you read post 73 on page 5 for clarification of the heresy I am attacking.My question would be then, are you defining hearing as works?

Alaska
Dec 27th 2008, 11:49 PM
My question would be then, are you defining hearing as works?

Anything that we do that is necessary to be done as a requirement for salvation is a "work" in the sense that it is something a person has to consciously decide to do or not to do.
Repentance is a work and noone is foolish enough to deny that as a required conscious action with regards to receiving the Holy Ghost and hence salvation.
Praying is also regarded by the scriptures along with reading as works which we should agree are necessary to be continued in as long as a person is able to continue in them.

As far as the generally accepted definition of "saved", I suggest again to read post 73 to be aware of the foundational premise.

RevLogos
Dec 28th 2008, 12:06 AM
Its not just works though my entire mind was transformed. I think differently now then I did then too.

You have it exactly Veretax.

2Co 5:17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come!

I am a completely different person than I was 2 years ago. And I am still changing. For 25 years I thought I was a Christian. Now I know I was dead. I praise the Lord for His patience.

Yukerboy
Dec 28th 2008, 12:22 AM
Question 1) So you didn't need to do anything to be saved?

Of course not.

Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved


Question 2) So its not true then that you are "saved... not of works" is it?

For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—

Faith is given by God. Grace is given by God. If faith doesn't come from you, but God, then the work is also God's and not yours.

God must drag man to Christ to be saved. We cannot do it on our own.


Question 3) So do you really mean that you are not saved by works other than the works of believing accepting repenting and praying? If those things are necessary, isn't it a false statement to make the claim that works aren't necessary to be saved?

God also grants repentance. So any "work" you find that leads to salvation is not a work of man, but of God.


Question 4) Aren't believing, accepting, repenting and praying rules that you agreed you had to do in order to get saved?

Kinda sorta. When God dragged me to Christ, I did as He said, for who can resist His will?

Let's not build up the straw man and then tear it down.

Works is a direct result of faith. However it is faith that saves, not works.

Thomas1621
Dec 28th 2008, 02:24 AM
Of course not.

Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved



For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—

Faith is given by God. Grace is given by God. If faith doesn't come from you, but God, then the work is also God's and not yours.

God must drag man to Christ to be saved. We cannot do it on our own.



God also grants repentance. So any "work" you find that leads to salvation is not a work of man, but of God.



Kinda sorta. When God dragged me to Christ, I did as He said, for who can resist His will?

Let's not build up the straw man and then tear it down.

Works is a direct result of faith. However it is faith that saves, not works.

It is clear in the Gospel of Matthew ch 24 and 25 that the works referred to are born from living a charitable and humble life as Jesus taught He expects of us, the life we should live if following His teachings. It is far from limited to these things but the fact that He makes it very clear that without such works the bottom line is eternal death. It also points out that these works are NOT automatic due to being saved but are voluntary, as a matter of choosing to live up to our end of the covenant we are in with Him. A covenant is between two. He died horribly for our Salvation, we are to live as He did and as He taught. We already know we must have faith to have salvation, but it can not be more clear that once you have such faith you are then to live as taught and both are required for eternal salvation but it is not granted until final judgement.

Yukerboy
Dec 28th 2008, 02:55 AM
It is clear in the Gospel of Matthew ch 24 and 25 that the works referred to are born from living a charitable and humble life as Jesus taught He expects of us, the life we should live if following His teachings. It is far from limited to these things but the fact that He makes it very clear that without such works the bottom line is eternal death. It also points out that these works are NOT automatic due to being saved but are voluntary, as a matter of choosing to live up to our end of the covenant we are in with Him. A covenant is between two. He died horribly for our Salvation, we are to live as He did and as He taught. We already know we must have faith to have salvation, but it can not be more clear that once you have such faith you are then to live as taught and both are required for eternal salvation but it is not granted until final judgement.

I'm pretty familiar with Matthew 24 and 25, yet I have never seen where "It also points out that these works are NOT automatic due to being saved but are voluntary, as a matter of choosing to live up to our end of the covenant we are in with Him"

Nope, you will never find that. You will find that those who believed and stayed for a short while, then fell back, were never saved. God makes the ones who are saved, born again, Christians, what have you, to will and act according to his purposes. God makes them strong to endure to the end.

It is God alone. Not voluntarily.

And it is God that said the result of faith is works. Bottom line. No other way to put works into its proper role.

Yuke

Thomas1621
Dec 28th 2008, 03:18 AM
I'm pretty familiar with Matthew 24 and 25, yet I have never seen where "It also points out that these works are NOT automatic due to being saved but are voluntary, as a matter of choosing to live up to our end of the covenant we are in with Him"

Nope, you will never find that. You will find that those who believed and stayed for a short while, then fell back, were never saved. God makes the ones who are saved, born again, Christians, what have you, to will and act according to his purposes. God makes them strong to endure to the end.

It is God alone. Not voluntarily.

And it is God that said the result of faith is works. Bottom line. No other way to put works into its proper role.

Yuke
Hey Yuke, how you doin',
Well if what you say is true you consider yourself free of sin and unable to fall into sin again, correct?
Additionally, if what you say is true, Jesus was merely wasting His breath proclaiming these words? Because based on what Jesus said, many will say Lord, Lord, and this means those who also believed themselves saved or reborn yet according to His word, are in route to eternal death or hell because they CHOSE not to do the works in His name. The key word is Choose, God never removed our free will and again, if a covenant is between two sides and His end was death by crucifixion, do you really think your or our side of the covenant is merely faith alone? do you also believe the works you do are the best you could do if the responsibility was controlled by the Holy Spirit? I think you know the answer to whether your works are to the fullest of your capability. I know I do and I am sure many of us in this forum know if our works are to our fullest. But that is between me, you and whoever and our Lord, Who already knows.

reformedct
Dec 28th 2008, 03:39 AM
TO HIM WHO DOES NOT WORK BUT BELIEVES ON HIM WHO JUSTIFIES THE UNGODLY, TO HIM IT IS COUNTED AS RIGHTEOUSNESS.

If you have "worked" for your salvation you dont have the salvation the Bible is talking about

would anyone like to present their argument against the Bible on this?

it is veeeeeeeeeeeeerrrrrrrrryyyyyyyy simple:

true faith produces works. the works dont save, they are the results of true faith.


why is there even any arguing on such a simple and fundamental truth??? the bible says plainly to him who does not work? what is there to discuss?:rolleyes:

so whatever you are counting as works: hearing, receiving or whatever, it cannot be classified as "Works". I you have Works involved in your recieving salvation you gotta problem according to Mr.Paul

yes we believe and have faith but these are not WORKS

Yukerboy
Dec 28th 2008, 03:41 AM
Hey Yuke, how you doin',


Good, thank you, you?


Well if what you say is true you consider yourself free of sin and unable to fall into sin again, correct?


OK, I'll bite. Correct.


Additionally, if what you say is true, Jesus was merely wasting His breath proclaiming these words?

Absolutely not! These are proclamations that must be adhered to so you can make your election sure. Work out your salvation with fear and trembling.


Because based on what Jesus said, many will say Lord, Lord, and this means those who also believed themselves saved or reborn yet according to His word, are in route to eternal death or hell because they CHOSE not to do the works in His name.

Many believe they are saved and are mistaken, few will endure to the end. Not because they chose to be unsaved, but because God works in those who are born again to will and to act according to His purposes.


The key word is Choose, God never removed our free will

How could He remove something He never granted? You will find many words in the Scriptures, yet never free will.


if a covenant is between two sides and His end was death by crucifixion, do you really think your or our side of the covenant is merely faith alone?

Um, yes? And not only that, but that saving faith is a gift, not of ourself.


do you also believe the works you do are the best you could do if the responsibility was controlled by the Holy Spirit? I think you know the answer to whether your works are to the fullest of your capability. I know I do and I am sure many of us in this forum know if our works are to our fullest. But that is between me, you and whoever and our Lord, Who already knows.

Now here I will anger some and say yes. If you are led by the Holy Spirit (meaning you have been born again) then all you do is the best you are capable of, even when you do wrong. It is God that works in those who are born again to will and act according to His purposes, and sometimes those purposes, while good and permissible, are not profitable.

We as Bible believing Christians must admit that God has a role in bringing evil about and that in doing so he is holy and blameless. God does bring sins about, but always for his own good purposes. So in bringing sin to pass he does not himself commit sin.

As Paul said, God made the law so that trespasses would increase.

God knew what Satan would do....and created him anyway.

God told the Israelites to go into the promised land and kill two year old children.

God knew what vessels of dishounor would do.

God knew what Adam would choose.

God permitted Satan to kill Job's family.

God appointed Hitler to be the leader of Germany.

All of these are for God's good purposes to be fulfilled.

voicenthewildernes
Dec 28th 2008, 04:50 AM
TO HIM WHO DOES NOT WORK BUT BELIEVES ON HIM WHO JUSTIFIES THE UNGODLY, TO HIM IT IS COUNTED AS RIGHTEOUSNESS.

If you have "worked" for your salvation you dont have the salvation the Bible is talking about

would anyone like to present their argument against the Bible on this?

it is veeeeeeeeeeeeerrrrrrrrryyyyyyyy simple:

true faith produces works. the works dont save, they are the results of true faith.


why is there even any arguing on such a simple and fundamental truth??? the bible says plainly to him who does not work? what is there to discuss?:rolleyes:

so whatever you are counting as works: hearing, receiving or whatever, it cannot be classified as "Works". I you have Works involved in your recieving salvation you gotta problem according to Mr.Paul

yes we believe and have faith but these are not WORKS
One must first define works. Is works physical labor or labor born out of love. As I understand and believe is that physical works does not begat salvation. Yet works born out of love is what we are judge upon. When we receive Salvation our sins are blotted away to be remembered no more, but our good works i.e. labor of love toward those in need are remembered. This understanding is how I know it. Where in scripture does it say we are to care for the widows and orphans? Now this is a works but it's labor born from love. So in essence any labor or so called works that is born out of love is not works but it is called your good works for which all will be judged upon. In scripture it is written that the greatest will be the least and the least the greatest. I believe this is reference to the good works born from love and as stated above the greatest not necessarily of good works will be the least, but the least will be the greatest. The recognition of greatest and least on earth and the total reversal in heaven shows and is proof of Christ's judgment of our good works.


Voice

Firstfruits
Dec 28th 2008, 11:49 AM
Gee whiz, I thought the entire premise was that we have works because of our faith. Hmmm...

The following should help regarding faith and works;

Jas 2:14 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=59&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=14) What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

Jas 2:17 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=59&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=17) Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

Jas 2:18 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=59&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=18) Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

Jas 2:20 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=59&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=20) But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Dec 28th 2008, 11:54 AM
One must first define works. Is works physical labor or labor born out of love. As I understand and believe is that physical works does not begat salvation. Yet works born out of love is what we are judge upon. When we receive Salvation our sins are blotted away to be remembered no more, but our good works i.e. labor of love toward those in need are remembered. This understanding is how I know it. Where in scripture does it say we are to care for the widows and orphans? Now this is a works but it's labor born from love. So in essence any labor or so called works that is born out of love is not works but it is called your good works for which all will be judged upon. In scripture it is written that the greatest will be the least and the least the greatest. I believe this is reference to the good works born from love and as stated above the greatest not necessarily of good works will be the least, but the least will be the greatest. The recognition of greatest and least on earth and the total reversal in heaven shows and is proof of Christ's judgment of our good works.


Voice

1 Thess 1:3 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=52&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=3) Remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labour of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father;

Heb 6:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=58&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) For God is not unrighteous to forget your work and labour of love, which ye have shewed toward his name, in that ye have ministered to the saints, and do minister.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Alaska
Dec 28th 2008, 11:39 PM
TO HIM WHO DOES NOT WORK BUT BELIEVES ON HIM WHO JUSTIFIES THE UNGODLY, TO HIM IT IS COUNTED AS RIGHTEOUSNESS.

If you have "worked" for your salvation you dont have the salvation the Bible is talking about

would anyone like to present their argument against the Bible on this?

it is veeeeeeeeeeeeerrrrrrrrryyyyyyyy simple:

true faith produces works. the works dont save, they are the results of true faith.


why is there even any arguing on such a simple and fundamental truth??? the bible says plainly to him who does not work? what is there to discuss?:rolleyes:

so whatever you are counting as works: hearing, receiving or whatever, it cannot be classified as "Works". I you have Works involved in your recieving salvation you gotta problem according to Mr.Paul

yes we believe and have faith but these are not WORKS

This misquote and misunderstanding of Paul is responsible for the grievous heresy that is being exposed here.
As long as it is falsely assumed that the "does not work" in the following quote pertains to not having to be obedient to the NT, then yes that could then be construed to mean that faith without works is in fact not dead:


TO HIM WHO DOES NOT WORK BUT BELIEVES ON HIM WHO JUSTIFIES THE UNGODLY, TO HIM IT IS COUNTED AS RIGHTEOUSNESS.


Paul here is doing what he often did in the NT and that is compare the 2 separate systems for righteousness.
Jesus is the end of "the law" for righteousness but the beginning of "faith" for righteousness.
Instead of being given rules to do in order to attain righteousness, as was the OT system of "the law for righteousness", the NT system has us to accept what Jesus did and acknowledge our state of need to be saved and then the power to change is granted to us as a gift as opposed to our trying to having to attain to righteousness by our own strength.
Like walking to a destination under leg power or riding in a vehicle under a greater power.
In both cases effort has to be made.
Yielding to the Spirit to conform to his guidance under the strength provided by the Spirit which was only made available by the death and resurrection of Jesus, is different to the system under "the law" whereby the person would work as from in and of himself and so "earning" righteousness.

Rom. 4:
4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
"God, I did this obedience, so now you owe me the recognition of doing right"


Rom. 4:
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
God, I have accepted your plan through Jesus' death and resurrection, and now I am risen with him having been delivered from that old death of the old man by the power of your grace granted for faith in what you did for me.
I owe you for the change you have accomplished in my life by the gift of regeneration of your Holy Spirit.


Those of us who follow Jesus out of the heartfelt thankfulness and realization of truth, obey him out of an awareness of Christ in us the hope of Glory. We understand like Paul that it is not us but Christ in us that works to do his will.

"Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only"?

James 2:
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

It was fulfilled by action denoting that the imputation was a prophetic type of good-faith anticipation that the faith would naturally result in obedience.

Firstfruits
Dec 30th 2008, 02:29 PM
This misquote and misunderstanding of Paul is responsible for the grievous heresy that is being exposed here.
As long as it is falsely assumed that the "does not work" in the following quote pertains to not having to be obedient to the NT, then yes that could then be construed to mean that faith without works is in fact not dead:


Paul here is doing what he often did in the NT and that is compare the 2 separate systems for righteousness.
Jesus is the end of "the law" for righteousness but the beginning of "faith" for righteousness.
Instead of being given rules to do in order to attain righteousness, as was the OT system of "the law for righteousness", the NT system has us to accept what Jesus did and acknowledge our state of need to be saved and then the power to change is granted to us as a gift as opposed to our trying to having to attain to righteousness by our own strength.
Like walking to a destination under leg power or riding in a vehicle under a greater power.
In both cases effort has to be made.
Yielding to the Spirit to conform to his guidance under the strength provided by the Spirit which was only made available by the death and resurrection of Jesus, is different to the system under "the law" whereby the person would work as from in and of himself and so "earning" righteousness.

Rom. 4:
4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
"God, I did this obedience, so now you owe me the recognition of doing right"


Rom. 4:
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
God, I have accepted your plan through Jesus' death and resurrection, and now I am risen with him having been delivered from that old death of the old man by the power of your grace granted for faith in what you did for me.
I owe you for the change you have accomplished in my life by the gift of regeneration of your Holy Spirit.


Those of us who follow Jesus out of the heartfelt thankfulness and realization of truth, obey him out of an awareness of Christ in us the hope of Glory. We understand like Paul that it is not us but Christ in us that works to do his will.

"Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only"?

James 2:
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

It was fulfilled by action denoting that the imputation was a prophetic type of good-faith anticipation that the faith would naturally result in obedience.

Thanks Alaska,

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Emanate
Dec 30th 2008, 02:46 PM
Paul here is doing what he often did in the NT and that is compare the 2 separate systems for righteousness.
Jesus is the end of "the law" for righteousness but the beginning of "faith" for righteousness.


This shows a lack of biblical continuity. The law was never given to attain righteousness. Not one person was justified by the law (or was expected to) ever. Paul was pointing out that righteousness was not something earned by works, EVER. Judaism in the first century (and Christians today) viewed the law as something to attain righteousness, and Paul spoke against this heresy. The law was the goal of righteousness, in other words it was given as a guide to live in the righteousness granted us by the garce and mercy of YHWH.

Faith for righteousness preceded and coincided with Torah, even as it is today.

To teach that the law was ever given to attain righteousness or that law is in opposition to faith is heresy that contradicts the words of YHWH, Messiah, and Paul.

Abraham is a prime example of this.


Genesis 26:4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;
5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

Romans 4:9 Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.
10 How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision.
11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:
12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised. 13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.


Abraham kept the commandments of God including circumcision AFTER being justified by his faith. Grace and Law is truly a perfect harmony.

Firstfruits
Dec 30th 2008, 02:55 PM
This shows a lack of biblical continuity. The law was never given to attain righteousness. Not one person was justified by the law (or was expected to) ever. Paul was pointing out that righteousness was not something earned by works, EVER. Judaism in the first century (and Christians today) viewed the law as something to attain righteousness, and Paul spoke against this heresy. The law was the goal of righteousness, in other words it was given as a guide to live in the righteousness granted us by the garce and mercy of YHWH.

Faith for righteousness preceded and coincided with Torah, even as it is today.

To teach that the law was ever given to attain righteousness or that law is in opposition to faith is heresy that contradicts the words of YHWH, Messiah, and Paul.

Abraham is a prime example of this.


Genesis 26:4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;
5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

Romans 4:9 Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.
10 How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision.
11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:
12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised. 13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.


Abraham kept the commandments of God including circumcision AFTER being justified by his faith. Grace and Law is truly a perfect harmony.

With what you have said; To teach that the law was ever given to attain righteousness or that law is in opposition to faith is heresy that contradicts the words of YHWH, Messiah, and Paul. Can you explain this scripture?

Gal 3:12 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=12) And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.

Thanks,

Firstfruits

Veretax
Dec 30th 2008, 04:06 PM
Do you believe you do these works because you choose to do so due to your Faith and love of God or do you believe you have no control over choosing to do them? The point is if you choose to do them you could also choose at some point not to, lets say something that occurs that somehow directs you to fall to sin. If you consider all the verses in the gospel that advise, direct or request that each of us perform works, it stands to reason that first, it would be unnecessary to even mention these suggestions or directions if it was all up to the Holy Spirit and not a matter of choice, and secondly, the fact we are "instructed" to perform good works it is a matter of our choosing to follow such a path and not an automatic non voluntary response to being saved. It is not until one has received the Holy Spirit that we are "saved" but once saved to realize and choose to follow the path laid out for us.


Too many other posts to reply to all of them, but I will answer you question because it is a bit complicated. Before I was saved I was a bit of a perfectionist, I tried to do everything right in my flesh and I was miserable. I put on this front like I was good and righteous but the truth was I was a sinner dead in sins at that point. I was incapable of doing truly good works before I was saved.

When I was saved, when my faith finally rested on Christ alone for my salvation, then did he give me a new nature, and that new nature changed my ability and not only made me able to do good works, but caused me to do thus. It was nearly 19 years ago I was saved and without thinking back it seems almost second nature that I strive to do Good things.

Now, does that mean I don't sin? no I still sin on occasion, but the desire to do things that are evil on a habitual regular basis or attempting to live on my own set of rules to be "perfect" is not in me.

However, the choice to do them or not do them? Sorry, but once I began to do Good works they were done they cannot be undone. If I give food to someone who is hungry, and later in life steal food from someone else, if my salvation is based on works then you'd have to wonder about the scales, well I did all that good before will that way out? That's just plain bad thinking. My salvation is not based on my work, but on the Work which Christ did on the Cross. My salvation is finished, and my sanctification, being made more like him is ongoing and will continue until the day he returns.


The old nature is like a root of a tree which waits in the forest for me to come walking by when I'm not looking for it to trip me up, but it does not take me off the path, nor does it prevent me from continuing on.


Make no mistake we have works because of faith, without faith any attempt at good works are as filthy rags.

Firstfruits
Dec 30th 2008, 04:17 PM
Too many other posts to reply to all of them, but I will answer you question because it is a bit complicated. Before I was saved I was a bit of a perfectionist, I tried to do everything right in my flesh and I was miserable. I put on this front like I was good and righteous but the truth was I was a sinner dead in sins at that point. I was incapable of doing truly good works before I was saved.

When I was saved, when my faith finally rested on Christ alone for my salvation, then did he give me a new nature, and that new nature changed my ability and not only made me able to do good works, but caused me to do thus. It was nearly 19 years ago I was saved and without thinking back it seems almost second nature that I strive to do Good things.

Now, does that mean I don't sin? no I still sin on occasion, but the desire to do things that are evil on a habitual regular basis or attempting to live on my own set of rules to be "perfect" is not in me.

However, the choice to do them or not do them? Sorry, but once I began to do Good works they were done they cannot be undone. If I give food to someone who is hungry, and later in life steal food from someone else, if my salvation is based on works then you'd have to wonder about the scales, well I did all that good before will that way out? That's just plain bad thinking. My salvation is not based on my work, but on the Work which Christ did on the Cross. My salvation is finished, and my sanctification, being made more like him is ongoing and will continue until the day he returns.


The old nature is like a root of a tree which waits in the forest for me to come walking by when I'm not looking for it to trip me up, but it does not take me off the path, nor does it prevent me from continuing on.


Make no mistake we have works because of faith, without faith any attempt at good works are as filthy rags.

With the knowledge you have, you also have temperance (self control);

2 Pet 1:6 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=61&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=6) And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;

So although we are not saved by works we are in control of what we do.

Firstfruits

reformedct
Dec 30th 2008, 04:32 PM
This misquote and misunderstanding of Paul is responsible for the grievous heresy that is being exposed here.
As long as it is falsely assumed that the "does not work" in the following quote pertains to not having to be obedient to the NT, then yes that could then be construed to mean that faith without works is in fact not dead:


Paul here is doing what he often did in the NT and that is compare the 2 separate systems for righteousness.
Jesus is the end of "the law" for righteousness but the beginning of "faith" for righteousness.
Instead of being given rules to do in order to attain righteousness, as was the OT system of "the law for righteousness", the NT system has us to accept what Jesus did and acknowledge our state of need to be saved and then the power to change is granted to us as a gift as opposed to our trying to having to attain to righteousness by our own strength.
Like walking to a destination under leg power or riding in a vehicle under a greater power.
In both cases effort has to be made.
Yielding to the Spirit to conform to his guidance under the strength provided by the Spirit which was only made available by the death and resurrection of Jesus, is different to the system under "the law" whereby the person would work as from in and of himself and so "earning" righteousness.

Rom. 4:
4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
"God, I did this obedience, so now you owe me the recognition of doing right"


Rom. 4:
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
God, I have accepted your plan through Jesus' death and resurrection, and now I am risen with him having been delivered from that old death of the old man by the power of your grace granted for faith in what you did for me.
I owe you for the change you have accomplished in my life by the gift of regeneration of your Holy Spirit.


Those of us who follow Jesus out of the heartfelt thankfulness and realization of truth, obey him out of an awareness of Christ in us the hope of Glory. We understand like Paul that it is not us but Christ in us that works to do his will.

"Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only"?

James 2:
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

It was fulfilled by action denoting that the imputation was a prophetic type of good-faith anticipation that the faith would naturally result in obedience.


i never said we didnt have to obey or do works. I am saying we dont have to do any works to be justified. James makes it clear that true faith always includes works, thats obvious.

I am not saying we never do works im saying we are not FURTHER JUSTIFIED by doing our works, our works are evidence of justifying faith


If you would all become monergists/calvinists it would all make sense to you

God starts our salvation and finishes it

He regenerates our hearts
He justifies us
and as prophesied in the OT "he will cause us to walk upright before Him"

it is so simple once you understand God is the one who saves and sanctifies us but of course half the people on here will disagree and continue to argue over these types of things

those whom he justified these he also glorified

Thomas1621
Dec 30th 2008, 07:07 PM
i never said we didnt have to obey or do works. I am saying we dont have to do any works to be justified. James makes it clear that true faith always includes works, thats obvious.

I am not saying we never do works im saying we are not FURTHER JUSTIFIED by doing our works, our works are evidence of justifying faith


If you would all become monergists/calvinists it would all make sense to you

God starts our salvation and finishes it

He regenerates our hearts
He justifies us
and as prophesied in the OT "he will cause us to walk upright before Him"

it is so simple once you understand God is the one who saves and sanctifies us but of course half the people on here will disagree and continue to argue over these types of things

those whom he justified these he also glorified

That works are a matter of free will to choose to perform or not to perform is a matter of common sense when we consider Our Lord clearly will take into account our works in the final judgment. He certainly could not judge us less or more charitable otherwise. How could we be judged on something not in our control?
Additionally, it also must be clearly realized that it is our Lord and Savior, who is the Way, and the Truth and the Life, who is the path to the Father in heaven, who will declare those who have not done the works He deems us to be responsible for the "accursed" and directs us into the "eternal fire". Faith is without doubt the foundation of our salvation but denying that which Jesus clearly declared cannot be excused. Are we expected to be perfect? No, of course not. We could never be perfect, never. God knows our weaknesses but it is no excuse to take advantage of His forgiveness and mercy. Again, Matthew 24 and 25 are not open to choice by the way He so declared.


Matthew CH: 25
31 14 (http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0839/#$39G) "When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit upon his glorious throne, 32 and all the nations 15 (http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0839/#$39H) will be assembled before him. And he will separate them one from another, as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will place the sheep on his right and the goats on his left. 34 Then the king will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father. Inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, a stranger and you welcomed me, 36 naked and you clothed me, ill and you cared for me, in prison and you visited me.' 37 Then the righteous 16 (http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0839/#$39I) will answer him and say, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? 39 When did we see you ill or in prison, and visit you?' 40 And the king will say to them in reply, 'Amen, I say to you, whatever you did for one of these least brothers of mine, you did for me.' 41 17 (http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0839/#$39J) Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you accursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, 43 a stranger and you gave me no welcome, naked and you gave me no clothing, ill and in prison, and you did not care for me.' 44 18 (http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0839/#$39K) Then they will answer and say, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or ill or in prison, and not minister to your needs?' 45 He will answer them, 'Amen, I say to you, what you did not do for one of these least ones, you did not do for me.' 46 And these will go off to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

Firstfruits
Dec 30th 2008, 07:21 PM
That works are a matter of free will to choose to perform or not to perform is a matter of common sense when we consider Our Lord clearly will take into account our works in the final judgment. He certainly could not judge us less or more charitable otherwise. How could we be judged on something not in our control?
Additionally, it also must be clearly realized that it is our Lord and Savior, who is the Way, and the Truth and the Life, who is the path to the Father in heaven, who will declare those who have not done the works He deems us to be responsible for the "accursed" and directs us into the "eternal fire". Faith is without doubt the foundation of our salvation but denying that which Jesus clearly declared cannot be excused. Are we expected to be perfect? No, of course not. We could never be perfect, never. God knows our weaknesses but it is no excuse to take advantage of His forgiveness and mercy. Again, Matthew 24 and 25 are not open to choice by the way He so declared.


Matthew CH: 25
31 14 (http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0839/#$39G) "When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit upon his glorious throne, 32 and all the nations 15 (http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0839/#$39H) will be assembled before him. And he will separate them one from another, as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will place the sheep on his right and the goats on his left. 34 Then the king will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father. Inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, a stranger and you welcomed me, 36 naked and you clothed me, ill and you cared for me, in prison and you visited me.' 37 Then the righteous 16 (http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0839/#$39I) will answer him and say, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? 39 When did we see you ill or in prison, and visit you?' 40 And the king will say to them in reply, 'Amen, I say to you, whatever you did for one of these least brothers of mine, you did for me.' 41 17 (http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0839/#$39J) Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you accursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, 43 a stranger and you gave me no welcome, naked and you gave me no clothing, ill and in prison, and you did not care for me.' 44 18 (http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0839/#$39K) Then they will answer and say, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or ill or in prison, and not minister to your needs?' 45 He will answer them, 'Amen, I say to you, what you did not do for one of these least ones, you did not do for me.' 46 And these will go off to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

Thanks Thomas,

God bless you!

Firstfruits

John146
Dec 30th 2008, 07:30 PM
i never said we didnt have to obey or do works. I am saying we dont have to do any works to be justified. James makes it clear that true faith always includes works, thats obvious.

I am not saying we never do works im saying we are not FURTHER JUSTIFIED by doing our works, our works are evidence of justifying faith


If you would all become monergists/calvinists it would all make sense to youOh, my. What an arrogant thing to say. Humble yourself. I'm not a monergist/calvinist but I still believe it all makes sense to me. Monergism/Calvinism is what doesn't make sense to me.

Firstfruits
Dec 30th 2008, 07:37 PM
i never said we didnt have to obey or do works. I am saying we dont have to do any works to be justified. James makes it clear that true faith always includes works, thats obvious.

I am not saying we never do works im saying we are not FURTHER JUSTIFIED by doing our works, our works are evidence of justifying faith


If you would all become monergists/calvinists it would all make sense to you

God starts our salvation and finishes it

He regenerates our hearts
He justifies us
and as prophesied in the OT "he will cause us to walk upright before Him"

it is so simple once you understand God is the one who saves and sanctifies us but of course half the people on here will disagree and continue to argue over these types of things

those whom he justified these he also glorified

Can you please explain the following?

1 Thess 1:3 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=52&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=3) Remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labour of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father;

Heb 6:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=58&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) For God is not unrighteous to forget your work and labour of love, which ye have shewed toward his name, in that ye have ministered to the saints, and do minister.

Firstfruits

reformedct
Dec 30th 2008, 10:41 PM
Oh, my. What an arrogant thing to say. Humble yourself. I'm not a monergist/calvinist but I still believe it all makes sense to me. Monergism/Calvinism is what doesn't make sense to me.


Please forgive me one of my biggest problems is walking in patience and love.

However yes we do many works but what does the Bible also say:

It is God who is at work in you both TO WILL and TO DO according to His good pleasure

Yes we are encouraged and commanded to do good works and love

But it is God at work in us to wnat to do those things and He is the one behind us actually doing them.

There is a sense in which we participate but it is ultimately God at work in us.

If we do anything good it is because of God at work in us, not because we mustered up enough will power and chose to do good. We respond to his work in us

Thomas1621
Dec 31st 2008, 01:31 AM
Please forgive me one of my biggest problems is walking in patience and love.

However yes we do many works but what does the Bible also say:

It is God who is at work in you both TO WILL and TO DO according to His good pleasure

Yes we are encouraged and commanded to do good works and love

But it is God at work in us to wnat to do those things and He is the one behind us actually doing them.

There is a sense in which we participate but it is ultimately God at work in us.

If we do anything good it is because of God at work in us, not because we mustered up enough will power and chose to do good. We respond to his work in us

My Christian brother, there is a fine line in reaching an understanding to works performed in the love of God but of our free will as chosen. Remember that God desires our love and salvation but to desire this verifies He doesn't cause it or take away from our free will. He is responsible for all the good works we perform in the sense that He provides us the grace and strength to fight sinfullness but satan himself is also at work and we must strive against him while striving as faithful servants of our Lord. He desires, not forces. The choice to perform Good works is on us and to actually succeed in performing them in His name is what we thank Him for. Give us the strength oh Lord, to follow you...

Firstfruits
Dec 31st 2008, 08:50 AM
My Christian brother, there is a fine line in reaching an understanding to works performed in the love of God but of our free will as chosen. Remember that God desires our love and salvation but to desire this verifies He doesn't cause it or take away from our free will. He is responsible for all the good works we perform in the sense that He provides us the grace and strength to fight sinfullness but satan himself is also at work and we must strive against him while striving as faithful servants of our Lord. He desires, not forces. The choice to perform Good works is on us and to actually succeed in performing them in His name is what we thank Him for. Give us the strength oh Lord, to follow you...

Thanks Thomas,

To believe otherwise would mean that we have no temperance (self control). How could we resist what we cannot control?

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Emanate
Dec 31st 2008, 01:20 PM
With what you have said; To teach that the law was ever given to attain righteousness or that law is in opposition to faith is heresy that contradicts the words of YHWH, Messiah, and Paul. Can you explain this scripture?

Gal 3:12 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=12) And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.

Thanks,

Firstfruits


That affirms all that I said. Justification by faith comes apart from the law. It does not nullify the law, it establishes the law. When Paul quotes OT scripture in the verse you provided, it in no way means that scripture is now useless.

Firstfruits
Dec 31st 2008, 01:49 PM
That affirms all that I said. Justification by faith comes apart from the law. It does not nullify the law, it establishes the law. When Paul quotes OT scripture in the verse you provided, it in no way means that scripture is now useless.

Thanks Emanate,

How does that apply to the "Faith without works is dead" according to scripture?

Firstfruits

Emanate
Dec 31st 2008, 01:53 PM
Thanks Emanate,

How does that apply to the "Faith without works is dead" according to scripture?

Firstfruits


I would simply say that works are the fruit of faith.

Firstfruits
Dec 31st 2008, 02:04 PM
I would simply say that works are the fruit of faith.

So because the the law is not of faith, the works are not the works of the law but as you say "of faith, is that right?

Firstfruits

Emanate
Dec 31st 2008, 02:42 PM
So because the the law is not of faith, the works are not the works of the law but as you say "of faith, is that right?

Firstfruits


No, I am saying that works have always been about Torah, while works of the law is not Torah, but commands of men that are based loosely on, yet not part of Torah. Torah has never been about justification, yet justification implants Torah within the heart of the believer. Many believe that when something is written on your heart then your life ought not resemble what is written. I am not one of those.

Works never justify. Faith justifies and produces works. In other words, you can judge a person's faith by their works.

Love is a work of Torah.

Firstfruits
Dec 31st 2008, 02:55 PM
No, I am saying that works have always been about Torah, while works of the law is not Torah, but commands of men that are based loosely on, yet not part of Torah. Torah has never been about justification, yet justification implants Torah within the heart of the believer. Many believe that when something is written on your heart then your life ought not resemble what is written. I am not one of those.

Works never justify. Faith justifies and produces works. In other words, you can judge a person's faith by their works.

Love is a work of Torah.

Are the works in these scriptures anything to do with Torah, if so why?

Jas 1:25 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=59&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=25) But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.

Jas 2:14 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=59&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=14) What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

Jas 2:17 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=59&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=17) Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

Jas 2:18 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=59&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=18) Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

Jas 2:20 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=59&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=20) But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

Jas 2:24 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=59&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=24) Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Jas 2:25 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=59&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=25) Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?

Jas 2:26 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=59&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=26) For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Emanate
Dec 31st 2008, 03:28 PM
Are the works in these scriptures anything to do with Torah, if so why?

Jas 1:25 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=59&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=25) But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.

Jas 2:14 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=59&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=14) What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

Jas 2:17 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=59&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=17) Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

Jas 2:18 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=59&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=18) Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

Jas 2:20 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=59&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=20) But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

Jas 2:24 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=59&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=24) Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Jas 2:25 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=59&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=25) Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?

Jas 2:26 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=59&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=26) For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

God bless you!

Firstfruits




Yes, I would say that Jacob is referring to the Word of YHWH. He clearly references the "commandments of God" throughout his writing. There is a possibility he was a heretic and referred to works other than Torah, but I do not see that as the case.

I am still at a failure to understand how anyone understands his statements as saying that works somehow justify when that is simply not the case. Jacob clearly states works reveal justification. If your justification is not evidenced by works, then it is no justification at all.

Firstfruits
Dec 31st 2008, 03:55 PM
Yes, I would say that Jacob is referring to the Word of YHWH. He clearly references the "commandments of God" throughout his writing. There is a possibility he was a heretic and referred to works other than Torah, but I do not see that as the case.

I am still at a failure to understand how anyone understands his statements as saying that works somehow justify when that is simply not the case. Jacob clearly states works reveal justification. If your justification is not evidenced by works, then it is no justification at all.

So you are reffering to the word of God which all are to adhere to rather than the works which are of the law from which there is no justification?

Rom 3:20 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=20) Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

I know you cannot understand why it is written that we are justified by works, but that is what is written. We may not understand all that is written but as it is the word of God we cannot ignore it or dismiss it can we?

Jas 2:24 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=59&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=24) Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Jas 2:25 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=59&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=25) Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Thomas1621
Dec 31st 2008, 04:18 PM
Yes, I would say that Jacob is referring to the Word of YHWH. He clearly references the "commandments of God" throughout his writing. There is a possibility he was a heretic and referred to works other than Torah, but I do not see that as the case.

I am still at a failure to understand how anyone understands his statements as saying that works somehow justify when that is simply not the case. Jacob clearly states works reveal justification. If your justification is not evidenced by works, then it is no justification at all.

As a Christian, surely you don't perform your faith soley based on the OT. Do you follow the teachings of Christ as the fulfillment of the OT? the New testament very clearly calls upon us to perform works? The fact that Scripture does not conflict with itself should express the fact that Faith and works together are necessary for our salvation. To discount works would be to reject a major portion of the gospel, would it not?

Emanate
Dec 31st 2008, 04:22 PM
So you are reffering to the word of God which all are to adhere to rather than the works which are of the law from which there is no justification?

Rom 3:20 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=20) Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

I know you cannot understand why it is written that we are justified by works, but that is what is written. We may not understand all that is written but as it is the word of God we cannot ignore it or dismiss it can we?

Jas 2:24 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=59&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=24) Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Jas 2:25 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=59&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=25) Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?

God bless you!

Firstfruits


Jacob and Saul are speaking on differing issues. Saul is referring to religious dogma and traditions i.e. Jewish Law (which molded Rabbinic Authority). Jacob is referring to good deeds i.e. Instruction (or law if you prefer the mistranslation) or commandments of YHWH.

Emanate
Dec 31st 2008, 04:24 PM
. Do you follow the teachings of Christ as the fulfillment of the OT?


I am sure we would disagree on the meaning of fulfill.

Firstfruits
Dec 31st 2008, 09:24 PM
Jacob and Saul are speaking on differing issues. Saul is referring to religious dogma and traditions i.e. Jewish Law (which molded Rabbinic Authority). Jacob is referring to good deeds i.e. Instruction (or law if you prefer the mistranslation) or commandments of YHWH.

What good deeds are there contained in the law that we can show love to our brother/sister as commanded by Christ and which is according to those that walk in the Spirit?

Firstfruits

Thomas1621
Dec 31st 2008, 11:34 PM
I am sure we would disagree on the meaning of fulfill.

Its ok to disagree but to not share thoughts or opinions gets us no where. I am interested as to how you refer to yourself as a Christian but may disagree on some points of fullfillment.

Firstfruits
Jan 1st 2009, 03:01 PM
Jas 3:13 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=59&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=13) Who is a wise man and endued with knowledge among you? let him shew out of a good conversation his works with meekness of wisdom.

Jas 3:17 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=59&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=17) But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy.
Jas 3:18 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=59&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=18) And the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace of them that make peace.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Jan 2nd 2009, 11:13 AM
Mt 5:16 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=16) Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

2 Cor 9:8 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=47&CHAP=9&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=8) And God is able to make all grace abound toward you; that ye, always having all sufficiency in all things, may abound to every good work:

Eph 2:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=49&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Col 1:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=51&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) That ye might walk worthy of the Lord unto all pleasing, being fruitful in every good work, and increasing in the knowledge of God;

1 Tim 6:18 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=54&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=18) That they do good, that they be rich in good works, ready to distribute, willing to communicate;

Tit 2:14 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=56&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=14) Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

Faith without works is dead as it is written, so let your light so shine.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Emanate
Jan 2nd 2009, 01:54 PM
What good deeds are there contained in the law that we can show love to our brother/sister as commanded by Christ and which is according to those that walk in the Spirit?

Firstfruits


Loving your neighbor. Helping your neighbor with burdens. caring for the widows. caring for the fatherless. so on and so forth

Emanate
Jan 2nd 2009, 01:57 PM
Its ok to disagree but to not share thoughts or opinions gets us no where. I am interested as to how you refer to yourself as a Christian but may disagree on some points of fullfillment.


I did not say that I disagree about fulfillment. I am saying probably have different definitions on fulfill.

Firstfruits
Jan 2nd 2009, 02:47 PM
Loving your neighbor. Helping your neighbor with burdens. caring for the widows. caring for the fatherless. so on and so forth

Thanks Emanate,

Is that not a description of the works of the law of liberty?

Jas 1:25 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=59&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=25) But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.

Jas 1:27 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=59&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=27) Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.

Jas 2:12 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=59&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=12) So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.

Firstfruits

Emanate
Jan 2nd 2009, 03:17 PM
Thanks Emanate,

Is that not a description of the works of the law of liberty?

Jas 1:25 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=59&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=25) But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.

Jas 1:27 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=59&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=27) Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.

Jas 2:12 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=59&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=12) So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.

Firstfruits


Indeed it is. Jacob was referring to the perfect law of liberty, the same law that had been made into a dead system when misused by the religious leaders. Jacob was affirming that which was spoken by the mouth of YHWH.

Firstfruits
Jan 2nd 2009, 03:26 PM
Indeed it is. Jacob was referring to the perfect law of liberty, the same law that had been made into a dead system when misused by the religious leaders. Jacob was affirming that which was spoken by the mouth of YHWH.

Is that therefore according to the following scriptures?

1 Thess 3:12 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=52&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=12) And the Lord make you to increase and abound in love one toward another, and toward all men, even as we do toward you:

Jn 13:35 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=35) By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.

1 Thess 1:3 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=52&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=3) Remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labour of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father;

Heb 6:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=58&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) For God is not unrighteous to forget your work and labour of love, which ye have shewed toward his name, in that ye have ministered to the saints, and do minister.

This, as it is written, is how men will know that we are Christs.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Emanate
Jan 2nd 2009, 04:00 PM
Is that therefore according to the following scriptures?

1 Thess 3:12 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=52&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=12) And the Lord make you to increase and abound in love one toward another, and toward all men, even as we do toward you:

Jn 13:35 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=35) By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.

1 Thess 1:3 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=52&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=3) Remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labour of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father;

Heb 6:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=58&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) For God is not unrighteous to forget your work and labour of love, which ye have shewed toward his name, in that ye have ministered to the saints, and do minister.

This, as it is written, is how men will know that we are Christs.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

I will go with that. It is easy to put emphasis on individual obedience and to emphasize it to others (sabbaths, etc....). Usually when we do this (I may have done it once or twice) we forget about the love aspect of the perfect law of liberty.

Firstfruits
Jan 2nd 2009, 04:02 PM
I will go with that. It is easy to put emphasis on individual obedience and to emphasize it to others (sabbaths, etc....). Usually when we do this (I may have done it once or twice) we forget about the love aspect of the perfect law of liberty.

Thanks Emanate,

God bless you!

Firstfruits