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uric3
Dec 12th 2008, 09:50 PM
I have been talking to a friend of mine and studying about the organization of the church and after looking at it for a little while I feel we are so far off course today as to how the 1st century church was designed.

Today we have a preacher, elders and deacons as in NT scripture. However it seems like everyone is doing a different Job than what is stated in the scripture.

Today: we pay a preacher to preach to a congregation of believers and saved individuals for the most part... you'll have visitors or converts ever so often but not a huge number to write home about so to speak... so its safe to say this individual mostly preaches to believers or the saved.

Back then: We see Paul and those who are preachers and evangelist preaching to unbelievers traveling around establishing new congregations and staying with them till they have a good firm foundation then moving on.

Today: we have elders who kind of over see and do a lot of decision making such as who to get for the gospel meeting coming up, should we purchase new Bibles or Song books, and checking up on Sister Sue who has missed a few Sundays.

Back then: we see elders are to feed the flock, basically they where to preach and continue teaching to the saved and after they where well established and Paul or whom ever moved on to establish yet another congregation.

Today: we have deacons who try to check on people who having been coming to church and give there thoughts and inputs to the elders on decisions being made and kind of wondering what else are they supposed to do...

Back then: Deacons seemed to make the more physical decisions such as how money was spent and what good work they they should have the church involved in. Basically what our elders do today.

So what do we have... today we have the preachers doing the work of the elders... the elders doing the work of the deacons and the deacons kind of lost and confused as to what they are supposed to do. And NO one really focusing on teaching exclusively to the lost that never step foot in a church building.

Does anyone agree or see something differently in the scriptures? It seems like our elders should be the ones teaching at church to the saved and believers while the preacher we are paying should be the one out in public places talking to the lost every day trying to get them to come to church or establish new ones...

Kahtar
Dec 12th 2008, 10:15 PM
Personally, I see the evangelists out doing the work of an evangelist, preaching to the lost and directing them to the church.
I see the pastor doing what a pastor is to do, leading the flock to water and food and shelter.
I see the elders directing the equipping of the saints, who themselves should be out doing, rather than just sitting in pews on Sunday.
I see the deacons being assistants to the pastor, caring for the sheep.
Of course all this varies from church to church, and blanket statements don't work.
The biggest problem I see with the whole organization is the pewsitters. Nowhere in the Word do we find the 'gift of pewwarming'. We are not called to warm pews. We are called to minister to a lost world, in whatever way the Spirit leads us and gifts us, and come to church on Sunday to 'get refueled' and bandaged after our encounters in the battlefield.

mikebr
Dec 12th 2008, 10:18 PM
Shepherds don't begat sheep. Sheep begat sheep.

amazzin
Dec 12th 2008, 10:22 PM
I have been talking to a friend of mine and studying about the organization of the church and after looking at it for a little while I feel we are so far off course today as to how the 1st century church was designed.

Today we have a preacher, elders and deacons as in NT scripture. However it seems like everyone is doing a different Job than what is stated in the scripture.

Today: we pay a preacher to preach to a congregation of believers and saved individuals for the most part... you'll have visitors or converts ever so often but not a huge number to write home about so to speak... so its safe to say this individual mostly preaches to believers or the saved.

Back then: We see Paul and those who are preachers and evangelist preaching to unbelievers traveling around establishing new congregations and staying with them till they have a good firm foundation then moving on.

Today: we have elders who kind of over see and do a lot of decision making such as who to get for the gospel meeting coming up, should we purchase new Bibles or Song books, and checking up on Sister Sue who has missed a few Sundays.

Back then: we see elders are to feed the flock, basically they where to preach and continue teaching to the saved and after they where well established and Paul or whom ever moved on to establish yet another congregation.

Today: we have deacons who try to check on people who having been coming to church and give there thoughts and inputs to the elders on decisions being made and kind of wondering what else are they supposed to do...

Back then: Deacons seemed to make the more physical decisions such as how money was spent and what good work they they should have the church involved in. Basically what our elders do today.

So what do we have... today we have the preachers doing the work of the elders... the elders doing the work of the deacons and the deacons kind of lost and confused as to what they are supposed to do. And NO one really focusing on teaching exclusively to the lost that never step foot in a church building.

Does anyone agree or see something differently in the scriptures? It seems like our elders should be the ones teaching at church to the saved and believers while the preacher we are paying should be the one out in public places talking to the lost every day trying to get them to come to church or establish new ones...


I totally disagree.
Perhaps that might be your experience but overall in my experience bishops/pastors/elders/deacons know their roles and do them both effectively and with purpose and passion

uric3
Dec 12th 2008, 10:51 PM
bishops/pastors/elders/deacons

Ok I noticed two post that kind of mention the same thing and I want to take a moment to point something out.

Out of those four terms mentioned up there three of them are the same thing...

Bishops = pastors = elders when the Bible uses these terms they all three refer to the same office... I had a great thread on here about it sometime ago however it seems to have been removed... I'll post when I have time in a new thread explaining this...

I plan on replying to each of you as time permits however I need to go at this time... sorry for the quick and simple reply.

Biastai
Dec 13th 2008, 05:20 AM
We see at least the beginnings of itinerant ministry giving way to localized church leadership at the tail-end of our New Testament in 3 John. Soon after that, the apostolic succession was established by Clement(?) according to whom God sent Jesus who chose apostles who then appointed bishops who were to be obeyed as God. The trend was already well under way. Please someone correct my ignorance where appropriate as I'm very green on this subject matter.

The Parson
Dec 13th 2008, 02:45 PM
We see at least the beginnings of itinerant ministry giving way to localized church leadership at the tail-end of our New Testament in 3 John. Soon after that, the apostolic succession was established by Clement(?) according to whom God sent Jesus who chose apostles who then appointed bishops who were to be obeyed as God. The trend was already well under way. Please someone correct my ignorance where appropriate as I'm very green on this subject matter.You really start to see changes filter in to a majority of the churches at the end of the second century. The first major change came about with the idea of baptisimal regeneration and then in the third century with the mixing of pagan with Christianity by Constantine.

The early second century churches for the most part had a congregational government (constitutional agreement) with everyone knowing their tasks same as those congregations who are in a small percentage today.

I do see where the OP is leading here and would like to see more historical references and the mention of the changes thereof.