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Equipped_4_Love
Dec 13th 2008, 08:47 AM
Mt. 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, "Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name? (23) And then I will declare to them, "I never knew you. Depart from me, you who practice lawlessness."

According to this verse, some people will have the ability to cast out demons and prophesy without knowing the Lord. This doesn't make sense to me, as other passages in Scripture seem to indicate that only those given authority by God will be able to cast out demons:

Mt. 10:7 And as you go, preach, saying "The kingdom of heaven is at hand." (8) Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out demons. Freely you have received, freely give."

Acts 19:15 And the evil spirit answered and said "Jesus I know, and Paul I know, but who are you?"

One would think that God would only give a person whom He knows the authority to cast out demons, but according to the Matthew verse, this isn;t necessarily so. So, then, are we to conclude that God also works through those who are unsaved to cast out demons, because of His mercy towards those who are possessed?

Or is this verse referring to the charlatans whose ministry is based on showmanship rather than the power of God.....i.e. they do not really cast out demons, but "put on a good show."

divaD
Dec 13th 2008, 02:05 PM
So, then, are we to conclude that God also works through those who are unsaved to
cast out demons, because of His mercy towards those who are possessed?


No, we can't conclude that. The verse says that Jesus never even knew them. Why would God work thru someone that He never knew? Keep in mind, the verse says that Jesus never knew them. It doesn't state they never knew Jesus. Also you need to read this verse from the perspective of all of the preceeding verses in that chapter.

When it states that He never knew them, that tells me that they were never a part of God's kingdom, thus they wouldn't be able to prophesy nor cast out demons by the Spirit of God. Look at verse 15.

15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves

There is no way that false prophets prophesy via the Spirit of God.

Kahtar
Dec 13th 2008, 02:12 PM
Those who don't know Christ do not do any of those things in the power of the Holy Spirit. But, prophecies, healings, etc. can take place apart from God's power, ie the devil's power. And those doing such things may or may not be deceived into thinking they are doing it in God's power.
Many people do many things 'in the Name of Jesus', as if using that name puts a badge of honor on it.
The raping, pillaging, and murder done in the Crusades was all done 'in Jesus' Name' also.

faithbuilders
Dec 13th 2008, 02:31 PM
Acts 19:15 And the evil spirit answered and said "Jesus I know, and Paul I know, but who are you?"



You missed the rest of the story.... They unsaved tried to cast out the demons, that is when the demons said the above statement. Jesus obviously they knew, Paul they knew because of the power of Christ in him.

But the Non-Christians, they ended up being attacked, for them it did not work.

Vhayes
Dec 13th 2008, 04:27 PM
I may have missed something and if so, I apologize, but it isn't the person who casts out demons, it's God. He USES a person but ultimately, He is the One doing the work, whatever that work may be.

Can He use an unsaved person to accomplish His will? - certainly.

divaD
Dec 13th 2008, 04:43 PM
Can He use an unsaved person to accomplish His will? - certainly.


For the most part, I won't disagree with this. But this is not what the context in Matt ch 7 is speaking to, It tells us that we can can know them by their fruits, and to be aware of false prophets, etc. Clearly these are not doing so according to God's will. Verse 21 tells us that only those that do the will of the Father shall enter into the kingdom of heaven. These are not doing according to the will of the Father, nor would God allow any of these use of His Spirit to further their iniquities.

Equipped_4_Love
Dec 13th 2008, 04:53 PM
You missed the rest of the story.... They unsaved tried to cast out the demons, that is when the demons said the above statement. Jesus obviously they knew, Paul they knew because of the power of Christ in him.

But the Non-Christians, they ended up being attacked, for them it did not work.

That was my point.....these men did not know the Lord, therefore, they could not cast them out.

The Matthew verse refers to those who do not know the Lord, but apparently, can cast them out. How is this possible?

Equipped_4_Love
Dec 13th 2008, 04:54 PM
I may have missed something and if so, I apologize, but it isn't the person who casts out demons, it's God. He USES a person but ultimately, He is the One doing the work, whatever that work may be.

No...You're not missing anything.

You speak the truth.

Equipped_4_Love
Dec 13th 2008, 05:04 PM
For the most part, I won't disagree with this. But this is not what the context in Matt ch 7 is speaking to, It tells us that we can can know them by their fruits, and to be aware of false prophets, etc. Clearly these are not doing so according to God's will. Verse 21 tells us that only those that do the will of the Father shall enter into the kingdom of heaven. These are not doing according to the will of the Father, nor would God allow any of these use of His Spirit to further their iniquities.

If they are false prophets, and they are not doing it by God's power, the onbly other conclusion is that they are doing it by Satan's....but this seems to contradict the teachings of Jesus:

Mark 3:21 So He called them to Himself and said to them in parables: "How can Satan cast out Satan? If a kingdom is divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand. And if a house is divided against itself, that house cannot stand. And if Satan has risen up against himself, and is divided, he cannot stand, but has an end."

So, then, we must conclude that the casting out of demons is done only by the power of Christ, which leads back to the original question...Why would God use someone who does not know Him to cast out demons?

Obviously, not all who cast out demons are saved.

Vhayes
Dec 13th 2008, 05:18 PM
Welder - I'm "winging" this because i have about a bazillion things I need to try and accomplish today but I wanted to share what I think. Please excuse the lack of scripture references...

I think God will accomplish His purpose in a persons life. If a person goes to a false teacher and a demon is cast out by the Holy Spirit, that person will be curious, thankful, hungry, etc. He may stay under the false teachings for a time but I think God will open his eyes and heart to the "wrongness" of the teachings and he will begin to investigate and move on.

Denominations all have their own focus. I personally think one of the reasons there are so many denominations is because different people need to learn different lessons at certain periods of their lives. If and when they learn the lesson that particular denomination has taught them, they will be led to move on and find a new church home for yet another lesson.

I hope that makes a little sense; as I said I'm trying to do way too many things today...
V

Equipped_4_Love
Dec 13th 2008, 05:26 PM
Welder - I'm "winging" this because i have about a bazillion things I need to try and accomplish today but I wanted to share what I think. Please excuse the lack of scripture references...

I think God will accomplish His purpose in a persons life. If a person goes to a false teacher and a demon is cast out by the Holy Spirit, that person will be curious, thankful, hungry, etc. He may stay under the false teachings for a time but I think God will open his eyes and heart to the "wrongness" of the teachings and he will begin to investigate and move on.

Denominations all have their own focus. I personally think one of the reasons there are so many denominations is because different people need to learn different lessons at certain periods of their lives. If and when they learn the lesson that particular denomination has taught them, they will be led to move on and find a new church home for yet another lesson.

I hope that makes a little sense; as I said I'm trying to do way too many things today...
V

Yes....absolutely.

Thanks!!

divaD
Dec 13th 2008, 05:29 PM
the onbly other conclusion is that they are doing it by Satan's....but this seems to contradict the teachings of Jesus:

Mark 3:21 So He called them to Himself and said to them in parables: "How can Satan cast out Satan? If a kingdom is divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand. And if a house is divided against itself, that house cannot stand. And if Satan has risen up against himself, and is divided, he cannot stand, but has an end."



I agree. My thoughts exactly. This would be in contradiction to Scripture, so it's not satan doing this either. The truth is, no one is actually doing anything.

If these claimed to have prophesied in Jesus' name, yet we know that they're really false prophets, and if thay claimed that they did many wonderful works in His name, yet Jesus claims that He knew them not, and tells them to depart from Him, ye that work iniquity, then what does that tell us about casting out demons in His name? If the first and last were false claims by them, then so would be the casting out of demons. To put it simply, they never did cast out demons in His name, They only thought they did. IOW, phonies from head to toe.

This passage in Matt ch 7 doesn't imply that anyone cast out demons in Jesus' name. It implies just the opposite.

Why do I come to this conclusion? Because Jesus said He never knew them. It didn't say that He knew them for awhile, and that something later caused Him not to know them anymore. He specifically stated that He never knew them to begin with. And with this in mind, no one in this passage ever literally cast out demons in His name, unless one wants to also assume that false prophets work via the Spirit of the Lord, since they claimed to have prophesied in His name also.

Equipped_4_Love
Dec 13th 2008, 05:44 PM
Okay, so they never really cast out demons? In other words, they were charlatans.

That makes sense. Thank you.

Dani H
Dec 13th 2008, 06:02 PM
The verse in the OP sound to me like these people are being called on the carpet by the Lord to answer for themselves, and they're pulling whatever "God-related" things the can out of their sleeves to try and get on His "good side" and cover for a lifestyle of disregarding Him, as if doing so is going to save their hides, so to speak. They're not even repenting of their sin. And they didn't know Him at all or they would have known that His emphasis is on love and service, not on flashy displays of supernatural power. When His disciples came to Him rejoicing that even demons were subjects to them, wasn't His reply to rather rejoice that their names were written in Heaven? People that spend enough time bothering to get to know Jesus will come to realize His priorities, that is something that cannot be helped.


Either way, their lives obvious must not have been a reflection of anything solid or their response would have been "did we not obey the Scriptures?" or "were we not good people who tried to do good to others?" and other such things. And Jesus was clear that these people were practicing lawlessness, which means they were involved in a lifstyle of sin, far away from God. It's interesting to note what they didn't say in an attempt to side themselves with the Lord when He called them to judgment for their lives. There are a thousand other things these people could have used to answer for themselves. Obviously, they had nothing, and knew it, and now they're pulling at straws, thinking that invoking His name alone will save them, when His name is irrevocably attached to His Person, who they obviously never bothered to get to know. Think about it in the context in which these statements were made. :)


I could of course be way off with my viewpoint here (I often am) but that was just something that struck me.

divaD
Dec 13th 2008, 06:11 PM
The verse in the OP sound to me like these people are being called on the carpet by the Lord to answer for themselves, and they're pulling whatever "God-related" things the can out of their sleeves to try and get on His "good side" and cover for a lifestyle of disregarding Him, as if doing so is going to save their hides, so to speak. They're not even repenting of their sin. And they didn't know Him at all or they would have known that His emphasis is on love and service, not on flashy displays of supernatural power. When His disciples came to Him rejoicing that even demons were subjects to them, wasn't His reply to rather rejoice that their names were written in Heaven? People that spend enough time bothering to get to know Jesus will come to realize His priorities, that is something that cannot be helped.


Either way, their lives obvious must not have been a reflection of anything solid or their response would have been "did we not obey the Scriptures?" or "were we not good people who tried to do good to others?" and other such things. And Jesus was clear that these people were practicing lawlessness, which means they were involved in a lifstyle of sin, far away from God. It's interesting to note what they didn't say in an attempt to side themselves with the Lord when He called them to judgment for their lives. There are a thousand other things these people could have used to answer for themselves. Obviously, they had nothing, and knew it, and now they're pulling at straws, thinking that invoking His name alone will save them, when His name is irrevocably attached to His Person, who they obviously never bothered to get to know. Think about it in the context in which these statements were made. :)


I could of course be way off with my viewpoint here (I often am) but that was just something that struck me.


I'm not going to say that I agree nor disagree with this, but what I get out of this passage is this. Our salvation isn't simply dependent on us knowing Him. He also has to know us. That's what counts.

Dani H
Dec 13th 2008, 06:23 PM
I'm not going to say that I agree nor disagree with this, but what I get out of this passage is this. Our salvation isn't simply dependent on us knowing Him. He also has to know us. That's what counts.

That word "know" describes a relational knowing and intimacy.

Bottom line: These people had zero relationship with Jesus. :)

Strong's G1097 - ginōskō
1) to learn to know, come to know, get a knowledge of perceive, feel
a) to become known
2) to know, understand, perceive, have knowledge of
a) to understand
b) to know
3) Jewish idiom for sexual intercourse between a man and a woman
4) to become acquainted with, to know

divaD
Dec 14th 2008, 12:57 AM
That word "know" describes a relational knowing and intimacy.


Exactly. That's the only logical conclusion. And besides, there would be no way that Jesus wouldn't literally know someone, afterall, He is God.

Ekeak
Dec 14th 2008, 01:40 AM
Perhaps they just believed that they could cast out demons.

Yukerboy
Dec 14th 2008, 02:06 AM
Do you think Judas cast out any demons when he was sent out along with the disciples?

AngelAuthor
Dec 14th 2008, 03:01 AM
One question I would ask is, if a person were demon possessed, and someone "cast it out" how would you know the reason why the demon left?

It could have done so voluntarily rather than being forced out.

What I'm suggesting here, is that maybe the unsaved do NOT have the power to cast out demons, but if they, whose father is the Devil, attempt to cast out a Demon and the demon sees a beneficial purpose in 'pretending' to be cast out by leaving, would they not do so?

How would you know the difference, standing on the outside?

Bladers
Dec 14th 2008, 04:08 AM
wow, you guys are so way off. Its like a deep space of speculations.
I do not have time but look into the life of saul and you will find answers.

The first mistake people make is to think that the verse is talking about false prophets or false people..

AngelAuthor
Dec 14th 2008, 04:15 AM
wow, you guys are so way off. Its like a deep space of speculations.
Wow...so wonderful to have the master here to correct our thinking. :rolleyes:

Equipped_4_Love
Dec 14th 2008, 06:08 AM
Wow...so wonderful to have the master here to correct our thinking. :rolleyes:

No need for sarcasm. Everyone's input is appreciated.

Dani H
Dec 14th 2008, 06:39 AM
wow, you guys are so way off. Its like a deep space of speculations.
I do not have time but look into the life of saul and you will find answers.

The first mistake people make is to think that the verse is talking about false prophets or false people..

Enlighten us then, o wise one.

Equipped_4_Love
Dec 14th 2008, 06:42 AM
Could you guys please lay off of the sarcasm?!
I would like as much input as possible.

4HeavensSake
Dec 14th 2008, 02:49 PM
To me this passage means



Mat 7:21Not every one that saith unto me,Lord,Lord,shall enter in to the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

you will not enter be saved by vain profession.


but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.


Joh 6:40And this is the will of him that sent me,that every one which seeth the Son,and believeth on him,may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.


Mat 7:22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

you will not be saved by works no matter how great


Mat 7:23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you:depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

You will be Saved only if you trust in the work that Jesus did to cleanse us from sin.

I have restled with this scripture for a while and I certainly am open to hear what others think of it!

Vhayes
Dec 14th 2008, 03:05 PM
Mat 7:23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you:depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

To me, it seems crystal clear that those whom Jesus is addressing are folks who were never saved, never trusted in Christ Jesus but rather "worked" expecting their offering to somehow measure up.

Kahtar
Dec 14th 2008, 03:11 PM
The key to the whole thing is that phrase 'I never knew you'.
Knowing Him, or Him knowing us, implies, or rather requires, relationship with Him.
We can profess to know Him, we can obey all His commandments, do many wonderful things in His Name, and still not know Him. We can speak the magic formula to 'accept Him as our Savior', and still not know Him.
Relationship involves communication, our speaking to Him, Him speaking to us, our listening to His voice. We come to know Him through communication. We learn His will, we learn His Love. And we BELIEVE those things He says, and not just believe, but walk according to that belief.

divaD
Dec 14th 2008, 05:08 PM
wow, you guys are so way off. Its like a deep space of speculations.
I do not have time but look into the life of saul and you will find answers.

The first mistake people make is to think that the verse is talking about false prophets or false people..



bladers, the suspense is killing some of us, lol. http://bibleforums.org/images/icons/icon12.gif When are you gonna' let us in on what the life of Saul has to do with this passage?

Bladers
Dec 14th 2008, 06:02 PM
bladers, the suspense is killing some of us, lol. http://bibleforums.org/images/icons/icon12.gif When are you gonna' let us in on what the life of Saul has to do with this passage?

I will say it in a couple of minutes, but in the meantime get ready.

I do not want to say it and see people drowning on me. I want every one to put on supersonic ears in the spirit that they might understand...

Yukerboy
Dec 14th 2008, 06:23 PM
are we to conclude that God also works through those who are unsaved to cast out demons, because of His mercy towards those who are possessed?

I think the conclusion is correct.

I think the cause may be correct.

I feel the reason for God working through those who are unsaved to cast out demons is so that God's purpose be fulfilled. Whether it is mercy for the afflicted, or if it is to raise up one of the unsaved for a greater fall. Who knows? :shrug

divaD
Dec 14th 2008, 06:51 PM
I feel the reason for God working through those who are unsaved to cast out demons is so that God's purpose be fulfilled.
Whether it is mercy for the afflicted, or if it is to raise up one of the unsaved for a greater fall. Who knows? :shrug


You do realize that this conflicts with Scripture?

Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

If your conclusions are correct, then they would be doing according to the will of the Father, thus they would be allowed into the kingdom of heaven. But of course, the next 2 verses even further conflict with that idea.

Matthew 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.



Verse 23 clearly tells us that Jesus never had a personal relationship with them. This would mean none of them had the Holy Spirit, It is by the Holy Spirit that demons are cast out, is it not? Scriprure also tells that satan can't cast out satan. So, if none of these had the Holy Spirit, then how did they cast out demons in Jesus' name? Could it be that these people are simply liars and false christians? I wonder why, right before verse 21, Jesus warns us about false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves?
What's that all about, if it has nothing to do with verses 21-23?

Bethany67
Dec 14th 2008, 09:13 PM
I will say it in a couple of minutes, but in the meantime get ready.

I do not want to say it and see people drowning on me. I want every one to put on supersonic ears in the spirit that they might understand...

I'll be happy to listen and assess what you eventually say. You just might want to think about how you're coming across, my dear.

Yukerboy
Dec 14th 2008, 09:25 PM
You do realize that this conflicts with Scripture?

Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

If your conclusions are correct, then they would be doing according to the will of the Father, thus they would be allowed into the kingdom of heaven. But of course, the next 2 verses even further conflict with that idea.

Matthew 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.



Verse 23 clearly tells us that Jesus never had a personal relationship with them. This would mean none of them had the Holy Spirit, It is by the Holy Spirit that demons are cast out, is it not? Scriprure also tells that satan can't cast out satan. So, if none of these had the Holy Spirit, then how did they cast out demons in Jesus' name? Could it be that these people are simply liars and false christians? I wonder why, right before verse 21, Jesus warns us about false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves?
What's that all about, if it has nothing to do with verses 21-23?


"in thy name have cast out devils" If demons were cast out in Jesus' name, and He tells them He never knew them, then odds are those demons were cast out without Christ knowing them.

Great miracles, signs and wonders will be done by the beast. You think he has the Holy Spirit too?

Also, wasn't Judas one of the disciples when Jesus sent them out to cast out demons and perform other such stuff? Is Judas saved?

Everyone does the will of the Father. Make no mistake. It is as we pray, The Father's will will be done on earth as it is in Heaven.

As Paul said, why does He blame us, for who resists His will? Paul doesn't say we can resist His will. Paul says, who are you O man?

If God decides to use one of the condemned to fulfill His will (think Hitler, think Pharoah) then, He'll do it.

4HeavensSake
Dec 14th 2008, 10:10 PM
"in thy name have cast out devils" If demons were cast out in Jesus' name, and He tells them He never knew them, then odds are those demons were cast out without Christ knowing them.

Great miracles, signs and wonders will be done by the beast. You think he has the Holy Spirit too?

Also, wasn't Judas one of the disciples when Jesus sent them out to cast out demons and perform other such stuff? Is Judas saved?

Everyone does the will of the Father. Make no mistake. It is as we pray, The Father's will will be done on earth as it is in Heaven.

As Paul said, why does He blame us, for who resists His will? Paul doesn't say we can resist His will. Paul says, who are you O man?

If God decides to use one of the condemned to fulfill His will (think Hitler, think Pharoah) then, He'll do it.

It never says demons were ever actually cast out. The people thought they did, it dosn't mean it actually happened.

Just a thought

divaD
Dec 14th 2008, 10:14 PM
It never says demons were ever actually cast out. The people thought they did, it dosn't mean it actually happened.

Just a thought



And this is exactly what I've been saying all along. It just seems like the only logical conclusion to me. But of course, we haven't heard from bladers yet. He said we're all way off. :)

Yukerboy
Dec 14th 2008, 10:44 PM
It never says demons were ever actually cast out. The people thought they did, it dosn't mean it actually happened.

Just a thought

That I could agree with.

But then, the disciples (Judas included) went forth and cast out demons.

4HeavensSake
Dec 14th 2008, 11:31 PM
[quote=Yukerboy;1905512]That I could agree with.

But then, the disciples (Judas included) went forth and cast out demons.[/quote

Does it say anywhere Judas cast out demons?

Yukerboy
Dec 14th 2008, 11:44 PM
And when He had called His twelve disciples to Him, He gave them power over unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all kinds of sickness and all kinds of disease.

You are correct. It doesn't say that Judas cast any out, just that Christ gave him power to cast them out.

Equipped_4_Love
Dec 15th 2008, 12:14 AM
I will say it in a couple of minutes, but in the meantime get ready.

I do not want to say it and see people drowning on me. I want every one to put on supersonic ears in the spirit that they might understand...

Bladers;

We are already in the Spirit. You need to speak up, my friend

4HeavensSake
Dec 15th 2008, 01:06 AM
And when He had called His twelve disciples to Him, He gave them power over unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all kinds of sickness and all kinds of disease.

You are correct. It doesn't say that Judas cast any out, just that Christ gave him power to cast them out.

He gave all believer's that power. It dosn't say whether or not Judas personally ever actually believed in or recieved that gift.

Bladers
Dec 15th 2008, 01:14 AM
Ok, everyone put on your spiritual understanding.

Saul of Kish, was a man anointed of God to be king over Israel (1sam10;1). Not only did God anoint him, He gave him the gift of prophecy(1sam10:6).

We need to understand that the Power of God comes with gift without repentance, without the power which is the anointing, the gift is not as effective. But with the power, the gift is sharp as a sword. The gifts ofcourse are the gifts of the Holy Ghost.


The people started making fun of saul and saying "is saul among the prophets"(1sam10:12)

Now he has the gift of prophecy in his life, after ruling over two years. Saul rebelled and disobeyed God and God rejected him.(1sam15:23)

God repented that he ever anointed him and viewed him as though he was never anointed and also became his enemy(1sam28:16), And God took away His Holy Spirit from him(1sam16:14)

But He still had the gift of prophecy. We see later that he later prophesied under the anointing of God that was on samuel's life(1sam19:23-24).

I hope am not losing anyone. The gift of God was still in his life. It means that someone can live in sin, and yet have the anointing on their life or the gift that God gave them years ago.


"...and God is departed from me, and answereth me no more, neither by prophets, nor by dreams:"

Saul started right, but he did not end right.

He comes and says: "LORD LORD the Philistines are after me" but God would not answer him, God regarded him as His enemy.

Judas was in sin, yet he did miracles and cast out devils. Judas was one of the twelve that was empowered by Jesus.

Matt 10:1 - And when he had called unto him his twelve disciples, he gave them power against unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease.


But when Judas betrayed Jesus, it was over for him. Do you get it? God can anoint some one, and they walk away. And they can still operate in the anointing? opposite of God's will?

Yukerboy
Dec 15th 2008, 01:16 AM
4HeavenSake, what I posted was Scripture.

And when He had called His twelve disciples to Him,

Name the twelve disciples of the Gospels.

He gave them power over unclean spirits

The "them" are the tweve disciples, which includes Judas

, to cast them out, and to heal all kinds of sickness and all kinds of disease.

Judas would be as the other eleven in having the power from Christ to cast out spirits, heal sickness and disease.

Bladers
Dec 15th 2008, 01:30 AM
4HeavenSake, what I posted was Scripture.

And when He had called His twelve disciples to Him,

Name the twelve disciples of the Gospels.

He gave them power over unclean spirits

The "them" are the tweve disciples, which includes Judas

, to cast them out, and to heal all kinds of sickness and all kinds of disease.

Judas would be as the other eleven in having the power from Christ to cast out spirits, heal sickness and disease.

Not only did he personally empower Judas, but He sent them to each city two by two.

Mark 6:7
And he called unto him the twelve, and began to send them forth by two and two; and gave them power over unclean spirits;

4HeavensSake
Dec 15th 2008, 01:37 AM
4HeavenSake, what I posted was Scripture.

And when He had called His twelve disciples to Him,

Name the twelve disciples of the Gospels.

He gave them power over unclean spirits

The "them" are the tweve disciples, which includes Judas

, to cast them out, and to heal all kinds of sickness and all kinds of disease.

Judas would be as the other eleven in having the power from Christ to cast out spirits, heal sickness and disease.

I'm a little confused do you believe that Judas was saved then later lost his salvation by betraying Jesus or that he was never saved?

Bladers
Dec 15th 2008, 01:40 AM
Yes and as I said that power is available to all who believe and become followers of Christ. Unless we know if Judas ever personally made that choice we can not assume that he did.That power is available under the condition that you accept it.

I am going to look more into the events surrounding Judas

My God, you cant speculate like that. Unless you have to speculate for all the twelve. You cant divide them and pick out which one you think didnt use the power of God.

But this power that Jesus gave him, was a mantle under his authority. A mantle of the anointing on his life.

There is a difference between the promise of power (acts1:8) and the enduement of power (acts2)

I dont think you get it, HE GAVE THEM POWER. He didnt give them promise of power...

Bladers
Dec 15th 2008, 01:46 AM
I'm a little confused do you believe that Judas was saved then later lost his salvation by betraying Jesus or that he was never saved?


Geez, you are way off.....

Salvation came after the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ

Equipped_4_Love
Dec 15th 2008, 01:52 AM
I'm a little confused do you believe that Judas was saved then later lost his salvation by betraying Jesus or that he was never saved?

Judas was never saved.

Salvation entails the accepting of Christ's sacrifice, and because he died before salvation was even possible, then I don't think we can say that he was or wasn't saved.

I don't think the other disciples were not actually saved until after Christ's death, either.

Equipped_4_Love
Dec 15th 2008, 01:53 AM
Geez, you are way off.....

Salvation came after the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ

Why the attitude, Bladers?

Bladers
Dec 15th 2008, 01:53 AM
Judas was never saved.

Salvation entails the accepting of Christ's sacrifice, and because he died before salvation was even possible, then I don't think we can say that he was or wasn't saved.

I don't think the other disciples were not actually saved until after Christ's death, either.

The disciples became born again when Jesus breathed the Holy Ghost into them...

Bladers
Dec 15th 2008, 01:55 AM
Why the attitude, Bladers?

well, its kinda diverting the topic.

Equipped_4_Love
Dec 15th 2008, 01:55 AM
The disciples became born again when Jesus breathed the Holy Ghost into them...

If Judas wasn't saved, then was he called or chosen?

Mt. 22:14 Many are called, but few are chosen

Yukerboy
Dec 15th 2008, 01:57 AM
Judas was one of the twelve. Jesus gave power to cast out demons to the twelve. Therefore, Jesus gave Judas the power to cast out demons.

The other thing is Judas was never saved. Jesus said Judas was “doomed to destruction.”

The disciples verify this when in Acts they state, Lord, you know everyone's heart. Show us which of these two you have chosen to take over this apostolic ministry, which Judas left to go where he belongs

4HeavensSake
Dec 15th 2008, 02:02 AM
The disciples became born again when Jesus breathed the Holy Ghost into them...

Okay. So then how do we conclude this has anything to do with the "many" referred to in Mat 7:22 ? Jesus did not give "many" the power to cast out devils that are not saved since we have just concluded by your argument that there were 12. And I'm pretty sure 11 of those are saved. So that leaves one(Judas) who will certainly not need to plead his case "in that day"

4HeavensSake
Dec 15th 2008, 02:04 AM
well, its kinda diverting the topic.

The topic is can the unsaved cast out demons!

Bladers
Dec 15th 2008, 02:07 AM
Okay. So then how do we conclude this has anything to do with the "many" referred to in Mat 7:22 ? Jesus did not give "many" the power to cast out devils that are not saved since we have just concluded by your argument that there were 12. And I'm pretty sure 11 of those are saved. So that leaves one(Judas) who will certainly not need to plead his case "in that day"

None of them were saved at that time, also Jesus empowered not only the 12. He wanted to heal so bad and he wanted to see the sick healed so bad. He called 70 others and gave them power...

But we know by the bible that no one can cast out demons but by the Holy Spirit. By the power of the Holy Spirit...
EVEN THE SAVED cant cast out demons without the power of the Holy Ghost...
And those who did it in Matt 7:22, were those who was in his Will, and empowered by Him. But they left the will of GOD and continued in their own will, and God rejected them as though he never knew them...

I showed you from the life of saul of kish? Did not you people put on your spiritual ears and eyes?

divaD
Dec 15th 2008, 02:40 AM
I showed you from the life of saul of kish? Did not you people put on your spiritual ears and eyes?


bladers, I read what you wrote, and I do admit, it's an interesting perspective. The thing is, the Lord knew Saul. Matt 7 tells us that Jesus never knew them. What are we to make of that? The verse specifically states 'never', and that's what it also means in the Greek..never. The same thing can't be said about Saul. It would be untruthful to state that the Lord never knew Saul...as in a one on one relationship type of thing of course.

Then we have to go back to Judas. Scriptures plainly states that he was one of the twelve, in which, Jesus sent out to heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils. And I agree with what you have stated in this thread. We can't choose and pick who did or did not do what. With that said, honestly, I'm not sure where I stand on this position anymore. Apparently Matt 7 is a bit more perplexing than it appears. I will say this..you have given me some food for thought.

Bladers
Dec 15th 2008, 02:52 AM
bladers, I read what you wrote, and I do admit, it's an interesting perspective. The thing is, the Lord knew Saul. Matt 7 tells us that Jesus never knew them. What are we to make of that? The verse specifically states 'never', and that's what it also means in the Greek..never. The same thing can't be said about Saul. It would be untruthful to state that the Lord never knew Saul...as in a one on one relationship type of thing of course.

Then we have to go back to Judas. Scriptures plainly states that he was one of the twelve, in which, Jesus sent out to heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils. And I agree with what you have stated in this thread. We can't choose and pick who did or did not do what. With that said, honestly, I'm not sure where I stand on this position anymore. Apparently Matt 7 is a bit more perplexing than it appears. I will say this..you have given me some food for thought.

Ok, but i wanna add one more thing. When God rejects someone, he views them as though he never knew them. If you look on that verse in Matt 7, they proclaim Jesus as Lord. It meant they knew Jesus, they knew who he was, they acknowledged him. So did saul when he asked God to speak to him.

You see, when God rejects someone. It is as though he never knew them. Its like when He cleanses us from our sins, it is as though we never sinned.

reformedct
Dec 16th 2008, 04:21 PM
First we must understand that God is soverign and as the psalmist said "our God is in the heavens, he does whatever is pleasing to Him"

Did you know that no one can even sin unless God allows it? ESV Genesis 20:6- "Then God said to him in the dream, “Yes, I know that you have done this in the integrity of your heart, and it was I who kept you from sinning against me. Therefore I did not let you touch her."

God can use someone by the power of the Holy Spirit to do whatever He wants. It is possible to become a "partaker of the Holy Spirit" meaning you experience and witness the power of the Holy Spirit, but not be saved.

However, this does not mean that one can lose their salvation. Rather, it is possible to associate with believers and even operate in spiritual gifts but not be saved. I would like to humbly say that i believe a person who says salvation can be lost is wrong.(this is my conviction and i don't hate others who do not share it)

the basis of our salvation is by grace thru faith and not of ourselves ephesians 2. According to Romans 3 our righteousness is not based on the law. By the law no one will be JUSTIFIED. the bible also claims that who the Lord justifies, he glorifies Romans 8. To say we can lose our salvation is to say that God justifies some but then does not glorify them but instead takes their justification. Losing salvation seems to say also that He who has begun a good work in you might not bring it to completion. It is saying that God can begin a work in you but because of your stubborness He is not strong enough to complete His work in you. It makes the will of man stronger and more authoritative than the will of God.

So from this perspective we can say that Judas was never saved, because he was not glorified. If Judas really knew intimately who Jesus was, God in the flesh, I don't believe he would turn him in for 30 peices of silver. I believe this act shows that Judas never intimately knew Jesus, though he was among the disciples. Once someone's spiriually dead state is born again by the Spirit to intimately knows God, they cannot help but to place full trust in Him, because they see how powerful He truly is.

what do you guys think? i enjoy healthy debate

reformedct
Dec 16th 2008, 04:23 PM
First we must understand that God is soverign and as the psalmist said "our God is in the heavens, he does whatever is pleasing to Him"

Did you know that no one can even sin unless God allows it? ESV Genesis 20:6- "Then God said to him in the dream, “Yes, I know that you have done this in the integrity of your heart, and it was I who kept you from sinning against me. Therefore I did not let you touch her."

God can use someone by the power of the Holy Spirit to do whatever He wants. It is possible to become a "partaker of the Holy Spirit" meaning you experience and witness the power of the Holy Spirit, but not be saved.

However, this does not mean that one can lose their salvation. Rather, it is possible to associate with believers and even operate in spiritual gifts but not be saved. I would like to humbly say that i believe a person who says salvation can be lost is wrong.(this is my conviction and i don't hate others who do not share it)

the basis of our salvation is by grace thru faith and not of ourselves ephesians 2. According to Romans 3 our righteousness is not based on the law. By the law no one will be JUSTIFIED. the bible also claims that who the Lord justifies, he glorifies Romans 8. To say we can lose our salvation is to say that God justifies some but then does not glorify them but instead takes their justification. Losing salvation seems to say also that He who has begun a good work in you might not bring it to completion. It is saying that God can begin a work in you but because of your stubborness He is not strong enough to complete His work in you. It makes the will of man stronger and more authoritative than the will of God.

So from this perspective we can say that Judas was never saved, because he was not glorified. If Judas really knew intimately who Jesus was, God in the flesh, I don't believe he would turn him in for 30 peices of silver. I believe this act shows that Judas never intimately knew Jesus, though he was among the disciples. Once someone's spiriually dead state is born again by the Spirit to intimately knows God, they cannot help but to place full trust in Him, because they see how powerful He truly is.

what do you guys think? i enjoy healthy debate

Bladers
Dec 16th 2008, 06:58 PM
First we must understand that God is soverign and as the psalmist said "our God is in the heavens, he does whatever is pleasing to Him"

Did you know that no one can even sin unless God allows it? ESV Genesis 20:6- "Then God said to him in the dream, “Yes, I know that you have done this in the integrity of your heart, and it was I who kept you from sinning against me. Therefore I did not let you touch her."

God can use someone by the power of the Holy Spirit to do whatever He wants. It is possible to become a "partaker of the Holy Spirit" meaning you experience and witness the power of the Holy Spirit, but not be saved.

However, this does not mean that one can lose their salvation. Rather, it is possible to associate with believers and even operate in spiritual gifts but not be saved. I would like to humbly say that i believe a person who says salvation can be lost is wrong.(this is my conviction and i don't hate others who do not share it)

the basis of our salvation is by grace thru faith and not of ourselves ephesians 2. According to Romans 3 our righteousness is not based on the law. By the law no one will be JUSTIFIED. the bible also claims that who the Lord justifies, he glorifies Romans 8. To say we can lose our salvation is to say that God justifies some but then does not glorify them but instead takes their justification. Losing salvation seems to say also that He who has begun a good work in you might not bring it to completion. It is saying that God can begin a work in you but because of your stubborness He is not strong enough to complete His work in you. It makes the will of man stronger and more authoritative than the will of God.

So from this perspective we can say that Judas was never saved, because he was not glorified. If Judas really knew intimately who Jesus was, God in the flesh, I don't believe he would turn him in for 30 peices of silver. I believe this act shows that Judas never intimately knew Jesus, though he was among the disciples. Once someone's spiriually dead state is born again by the Spirit to intimately knows God, they cannot help but to place full trust in Him, because they see how powerful He truly is.

what do you guys think? i enjoy healthy debate

I agree with everything you said but the sin part, please reread the same verse you posted. Read it over 10 times, maybe you then can understand it.
God can keep us from sinning, He does that by His Holy Spirit. This is why he sent His Holy Spirit to help us. That does not mean that when someone sin God allowed it...

i.e "Oh they killed that poor baby, yea I ALLOWED IT..." no...
i.e "Oh he got cancer, yea I ALLOWED IT..." no...

Now, the unsaved that the OP is talking about is someone who has no power, and that is impossible. You need the power of the Holy Ghost to operate. Now a unbeliever can receive an impartation of God's Power, and they can cast out demons. But a unbeliever, or a believer, without God's Power cant even cast out a demon from an ant...

reformedct
Dec 17th 2008, 12:46 AM
I agree with everything you said but the sin part, please reread the same verse you posted. Read it over 10 times, maybe you then can understand it.
God can keep us from sinning, He does that by His Holy Spirit. This is why he sent His Holy Spirit to help us. That does not mean that when someone sin God allowed it...

i.e "Oh they killed that poor baby, yea I ALLOWED IT..." no...
i.e "Oh he got cancer, yea I ALLOWED IT..." no...

Now, the unsaved that the OP is talking about is someone who has no power, and that is impossible. You need the power of the Holy Ghost to operate. Now a unbeliever can receive an impartation of God's Power, and they can cast out demons. But a unbeliever, or a believer, without God's Power cant even cast out a demon from an ant...

I appreciate your response however what you have just done is denied that God is ultimately in full control of the universe

So you believe that God does not allow sin? if God created the universe, is there anything in the universe out of control of God? If God does not allow sin then why does sin exist? does God not know about sin? Does God look at sin and say, "man i sure wish i could stop that." No, God will only allow people to sin to a certain extent.

Cain killed Abel. Did God not know Cain would kill able? is God not the Alpha and Omega? God knows the beginning and the end. I hope and pray that you are not an open-theist. An open theist says that God doesn't know whats gonna happen, he just reacts to what we do. This is heresy. God knows all sees all, and nothing is out of his sight or control.

YES GOD ALLOWS PEOPLE TO BE RAPED
HE ALLOWED ABEL TO BE KILLED
HE ALLOWED THE PERSECUTION AND BEHEADING OF JOHN THE BAPTIST

This does not mean that God does evil. God is good. Man is evil. God restrains how evil man will be. When the scriptures speak of the lawless one, the antichrist, it says that he is not fully surfaced because he is being restrained.

Do you truly want to believe that God cannot stop evil?

Is it not God who makes some sick and makes others well?

Remember the blind man Jesus healed? They wondered who sinned, the blind man or his parents to make him blind? Jesus said neither, HE WAS MADE BLIND SO THAT THE GLORY OF GOD MAY BE REVEALED.

God knows how everyone will live or die. God makes people sick if its according to His will. Sometimes it is not directly God, sometimes Satan asks God if he can mess with people (like JOb), however, notice that it WAS GOD WHO GAVE THE DEVIL PERMISSION TO DESTROY JOBS LIFE.

EVEN The devil cannot do more than God allows

Do you believe in the true, almighty GOD? or do you believe in a weak, incapable, reactionary God?

IT is very simple:

Can God stop someone from sinning Yes or no

Yes as seen in Genesis 20 above

Does the devil require God's permission to inflict pain, death, and suffering Yes or NO

Yes, just read Job

if you say No, you say God could desire for some bad thing to not happen but Gosh darn it hes just not in control.

Therefore, if God can stop both man and Satan from sinning,
then when sin happens, it is because the God who can stop sin and hurt has allowed sin and hurt to exist for awhile.

However God is not cruel or unholy, he is perfect. It is mans sin that destroyed this Earth and continues to make it more and more like Hell

God in His goodness, has provided salvation from out of this world into the everlasting kingdom of joy and peace to come at the glorious return of His SON

Yes God allows sin, but there is joy in the fact that there is a peacefull, sinless perfect and everlasting creation waiting for those who have repented of sin and trusted in Jesus, the Son of God! HOOray God! Booo man! haha


I think you are assuming that man deserves to be treated well and be healthy and wealthy.

No, man deserves to die.

The wages of sin is death
We are by nature objects of God's wrath
God HATES all who do evil Psalms 5:5

have you ever sinned? then you are an evildoer, you should die right now. I should die right now and be thrown into hell. If God wanted to strike me down right now while im typing he would be absolutely just because i am His creation. yes i am saved by grace thru Christ and i will not suffer the wrath of God(praise Jesus!) but God still owns my life on this earth and he can and will take it how he sees fit. Even how a believer dies can be used to glorify God(as Jesus hinted at by which death Peter would glorify God in the Gospels)

If God wants to give someone cancer He is just to do so because they deserve death. All humans who are either believers or not, are experiencing the mercy, grace, and long sufferring of God Almighty if they even have breath flowing in and out of thier body.

There is a great lie in America that says YOURE GREAT! JUST BE YOURSELF! YOUR AWESOME! no, that is not what the bible says. the bible says you were shaped in iniquity, there is no such thing as a good person outside of Christ. Everyman in the bible who was declared righteous besides Daniel,Shadrach, Mishac and Abendengo sinned. But God gave them righteousness by faith


Now let me just say that we DO BEAR THE IMAGE OF GOD! this is our only worth and value. We ar created by God. There is our worth. Outside of that we are nothing. WHen you understand this you will understand why CHrist and His work on the cross is so precious and glorious and life changing!:pp


I believe that there were unsaved people in the Old Testement (old covenant) who prophisied because of the Spirit but were not saved. I will continue to hopefully grow in my knowledge of the word by the grace of God and i hope we all bear much fruit! payce

Bladers
Dec 17th 2008, 03:00 AM
Did you know that no one can even sin unless God allows it?
Look, God does not interfere with our freewill.

God showed the king in Genesis 20 a dream, to warn him from sinning. He could have went ahead and tried to after the dream, but God told him he would be a dead man. God kept him from sinning by revealing to him that the woman is married, not by affecting his freewill.

We have freewill, God does not interfere with that. He can prevent us from doing something, but it does not affect our freewill to do it.

If i wanted to kill a guy at school, God can tell the guy to move to another state. And then i come and the guy is gone, i cant kill him anymore. But God didnt affect my freewill to prevent me.

Herod wanted to kill Jesus, but God told joseph in the dream to move Jesus out the city, God didnt say, "Hey i have to stop herod, let me interfere with his freewill".


Its just like salvation, it is free. It will not be forced upon you.

reformedct
Dec 17th 2008, 03:34 AM
i think there is a difference between free will and choice

1st. Only God has free will

only God can do whatever he wants, whenever He wants, however He wants

We as humans cannot choose to be seven feet tall or grow wings out of our backs. We have limited choices. we have a will, and we have choices. The bible also says that man is dead in his tresspasses, enslaved to sin
Romans 3:
no one seeks God
no one is righteouss
no one understands
no one does good,
NOT EVEN ONE


As a human you have CHOICE. you CHOOSE to do things. but apart from God, as THE BIBLE CLEARLY SAYS, NO ONE DOES GOOD.
If you claim that apart from God you have done good you are saying, No GoD! i did good! i chose you! No you do not do good. You may feed the poor, but apart from faith all is sin. You have CHOICE and apart from God doing something to your dead carcass(you were dead in your tresspasses and sins) you are dead as dung.

You are assuming that apart from God your will is free. No, the bible clearly states you are a slave to sin and dead in your tresspasses. How clear can it be? You have a BOUND WILL apart from God. And even in your BOUND WILL you are also restrained by the Hand of God.

YES YOU MAKE CHOICES BUt apart from God Your OPTIONS OF CHOICE ARE ONLY SIN, AND EVEN IN YOUR BOUND WILL YOU ARE NOT OUTSIDE OF THE WILL OF GOD.

AND IF YOU TRULY CHOOSE GOOD, IT IS BECAUSE GOD HAS Made you ALiVE

BUT GOD!
Ephesians 2:3-5:

"among whom we once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and mind, and were by nature children of wrath, LIKE THE REST OF MANKIND. 4 But GOD BEING RICH IN MERCY BECAUSE OF HIS GREAT LOVE IN WHICH HE LOVED US EVEN WHEN WE WERE DEAD IN OUR TRESSPASSES, MADE US ALIVE TOGETHER WITH CHRIST, BY GRACE YOU HAVE BEEN SAVED

WHo saved who? are you saved by choosing God? or is the bible true when it says HE MADE US ALIVE


Romans 9:13-

3 As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.” 14 What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! 15 For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” 16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion, [2] (http://www.gnpcb.org/esv/search/?q=Romans+9#f2) but on God, who has mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” 18 So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.
19 You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” 20 But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? 22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— 24 even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?



BUt you claim, no! it is my free will! I do what I want to do! No my friend, the scripture clearly says it does not depend on your human will but on God.



This is the problem with saying we choose God:
It robs God of HIS FULL GLORY!


we say yes God is good and thank God I CHOSE HIM. Yes, we should choose God, but no one apart from the mercy of God can choose Him. If you choose Him, it is because he has chosen you.


God gets all the glory from beginning to end. Why are you trying to rob Him of this?


You are saying that God does not have full control. That he does not ACTUALLY USE SOME PEOPLE TO POUR WRATH ON THEM TO DISPLAY HIS GLORY

please read verse 19, this is exactly what you are saying:

19 You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” 20 But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use?

16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion, [2] (http://www.gnpcb.org/esv/search/?q=Romans+9#f2) but on God, who has mercy


God makes some vessels for honor and dishonor period.

Bible says "for who can resist His will?"

Bladers says: me, he wouldn't dare interrupt my "free will"

Bible says: It depends not on human will or exertion but on God who has mercy

Bladers says: no we have free will, we choose

Bladers or Bible? I take Bible



Look, God does not interfere with our freewill.

God showed the king in Genesis 20 a dream, to warn him from sinning. He could have went ahead and tried to after the dream, but God told him he would be a dead man. God kept him from sinning by revealing to him that the woman is married, not by affecting his freewill.

We have freewill, God does not interfere with that. He can prevent us from doing something, but it does not affect our freewill to do it.

If i wanted to kill a guy at school, God can tell the guy to move to another state. And then i come and the guy is gone, i cant kill him anymore. But God didnt affect my freewill to prevent me.

Herod wanted to kill Jesus, but God told joseph in the dream to move Jesus out the city, God didnt say, "Hey i have to stop herod, let me interfere with his freewill".


Its just like salvation, it is free. It will not be forced upon you.

Yes, God did warn Him in a dream, but that was after the fact that he had already taken her. God told him in the dream what HE had already done. He did not say, i am going to stop you from sinning. IT WAS ALL PAST TENSE: IT WAS I WHO KEPT YOU FROM SINNING AGAINST ME. I DID NOT LET YOU TOUCH HER

Not i will not let you in the future because of this dream but I DID NOT LET YOU



Bladers let me just add i hope you are truly a brother in christ i know i can get cranky on this subject i ask you have mercy but i am very passionate about this matter

THE POINT IS THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS FREE WILL: THERE ARE TWO CATEGORIES:

a) unsaved, slaves to evil and sin, noe of these people do good, not one, BOUND WILL

b) saved, MADE ALIVE BY GOD ACCORDING TO HIS MERCY NOT HUMAN WILL. even the saved does not have free will. their bound will was overtaken by the mercy of God and they were made alive by God. He is to blame, not our Choice, NEW NATURE IS GIVEN THAT IS SET FREE. the SPIRIT IS FREE FROM BONDAGE, but is not gained by human will. People don't choose to be saved, God chooses them

reformedct
Dec 17th 2008, 03:40 AM
aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhh lol:cool: