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Bladers
Dec 13th 2008, 07:17 PM
The term “prosperity teaching” or “prosperity Gospel” is one of the most misunderstood and misused in today’s language.

I believe in biblical prosperity. It is taught throughout the Bible. Giving to the Lord is so important that God has promised that those who give for the work of the Gospel will be blessed and protected.

We give because it is God’s will. We give because it is His command! We give because it is His law. We give because the Lord has commanded every believer to give. And the Lord Jesus promises that when we give, we will surely receive.

We cannot deny the fact that the Lord Himself tells us that we will receive. In fact, Paul the apostle went on to say that if we give sparingly, we will receive sparingly, and if we give bountifully, we will receive bountifully. But the purpose for giving is the fulfillment of God’s will—and that is the preaching of the Gospel!

When we give for the preaching of the Gospel, we don’t have to wait for the harvest. The harvest will be waiting for us! The harvest will come our way as surely as the sun will rise again tomorrow morning. When we give for the Gospel—when we give for the right reasons—the harvest will surely come!

The Gospel must be preached, and true biblical prosperity is mentioned in Acts 4:32, which the Word of God declares:

"And the multitude of them that believed were of one heart and of one soul: neither said any of them that ought of the things which he possessed was his own; but they had all things common. And with great power gave the apostles witness of the resurrection of the Lord Jesus: and great grace was upon them all. Neither was there any among them that lacked." (Acts 4:32-34)

Here we see true biblical prosperity, which is no lack! That is what I believe will come when you give for the Gospel of Jesus Christ!

Not only that, but the Bible goes on to say that when we give for the Gospel, our future will also be protected. In Ecclesiastes 11:1-2 we are told: “Cast thy bread upon the waters: for thou shalt find it after many days. Give a portion to seven, and also to eight; for thou knowest not what evil shall be upon the earth.”

It clearly says that when we give, we will be protected from the evil to come.

Remember that the Lord tells us in Matthew 6:33, “But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.” You don’t have to worry about God fulfilling His promises. If we do our part, He most certainly will do His.


Also, remember the great promise to us in Psalm 37:25, where the Bible says, “I have been young, and now am old; yet have I not see the righteous forsaken, nor his seed begging bread” (Psalm 37:25).

The Lord has promised to take care of our needs and our children’s need, and neither we nor our children will ever be forsaken—as long as we obey the Lord and live a righteous life.

The days are short. We must get the Gospel out. The Scriptures tell us clearly that evil is coming to the wicked, but God’s people, who love and obey Him, will be protected. That is God’s Word! That is true biblical prosperity, for God has also promised to protect your finances and to keep you safe financially, as you obey Him and continue to sow into His work.

The Word of God tells us in Ecclesiastes 11:6, “In the morning sow thy seed, and in the evening withhold not thine hand: for thou knowest not whether shall prosper, either this or that, or whether they both shall be alike good.”

Equipped_4_Love
Dec 13th 2008, 07:18 PM
Thank you, Benny.

So, where should I send that check?

mcgyver
Dec 13th 2008, 07:25 PM
What is your idea of "biblical prosperity"?

(i.e. Financial wealth, health, happiness...or?)

Bladers
Dec 13th 2008, 07:31 PM
What is your idea of "biblical prosperity"?

(i.e. Financial wealth, health, happiness...or?)

If you were referring to me:

"And the multitude of them that believed were of one heart and of one soul: neither said any of them that ought of the things which he possessed was his own; but they had all things common. And with great power gave the apostles witness of the resurrection of the Lord Jesus: and great grace was upon them all. Neither was there any among them that lacked." (Acts 4:32-34)


It has nothing to do with being rich...

Equipped_4_Love
Dec 13th 2008, 07:32 PM
Okay.....I wasn't going to mention this, because I wasn't sure if I should mention it, but seeing as how the Bible tells us to be truthful, I'm going to say it:

There have been times when I have tithed in faith, and I ended up not being able to eat for a few days. Is this because of my "lack of faith?" It's come to the point where I am scared to tithe, because of past experiences.

Now, please, I am not complaining. It's not like I starved to death....God sustained me, as He always does......but according to your logic, every one of our financial needs will be met if we would only tithe. IMO, this is not always so.

God blesses us in other ways!!! :)

Bladers
Dec 13th 2008, 07:44 PM
Okay.....I wasn't going to mention this, because I wasn't sure if I should mention it, but seeing as how the Bible tells us to be truthful, I'm going to say it:

There have been times when I have tithed in faith, and I ended up not being able to eat for a few days. Is this because of my "lack of faith?" It's come to the point where I am scared to tithe, because of past experiences.

Now, please, I am not complaining. It's not like I starved to death....God sustained me, as He always does......but according to your logic, every one of our financial needs will be met if we would only tithe. IMO, this is not always so.

God blesses us in other ways!!! :)

Tithing is God's Law, not mine. He first introduced it to the children of Israel. Its all about obedience, and you should always tithed in proportion to your faith.

Its all over the bible; tithes, offerings, and alms...

Bladers
Dec 13th 2008, 07:53 PM
1)The result of God’s blessings and abundance is the results of obediance, not just in finances, but in every area of our lives.

2)The Word of God tells us, “Keep therefore the words of this covenant, and do them, that ye may prosper in all that ye do” (Deuteronomy 29:9).

3)The Scriptures clearly say that it is not God’s will for any to perish, nor is it His will for any to live in sickness or poverty.

Those are just my three cents...

markedward
Dec 13th 2008, 09:06 PM
1)The result of God’s blessings and abundance is the results of obediance, not just in finances, but in every area of our lives.You're claiming that God promises to give financial blessings in response to obedience to Him. Consistently, you'd have to claim that millions of Christians who are just as poor as millions of non-Christians are somehow all disobedient. You're saying that God's blessings aren't "just in finances", but you're still claiming that "finances" are part of His promised blessings.

3)The Scriptures clearly say that it is not God’s will for any to perish, nor is it His will for any to live in sickness or poverty.You're taking the Scripture in question completely out of context. John 3:16, the one in which "Scripture clearly says that it is not God's will for any to perish", is about spiritual living, not material wealth or physical health.

Raybob
Dec 14th 2008, 04:20 AM
Tithing is God's Law, not mine. He first introduced it to the children of Israel. Its all about obedience, and you should always tithed in proportion to your faith.

Its all over the bible; tithes, offerings, and alms...

Tithing was in the OT law but what people were to tithe was fruits and such. NEVER was money ever accepted as tithes in the bible. There was also never any tithing ever done by New Testament Christians.

Raybob

angel_fire
Dec 14th 2008, 05:35 AM
Mark 12:41 Jesus sat down near the collection box in the Temple and watched as the crowds dropped in their money. Many rich people put in large amounts. 42 Then a poor widow came and dropped in two small coins.
43 Jesus called his disciples to him and said, “I tell you the truth, this poor widow has given more than all the others who are making contributions. 44 For they gave a tiny part of their surplus, but she, poor as she is, has given everything she had to live on.”


Luke 18:22
When Jesus heard this, he said to him, "You still need to do one thing. Sell everything you have and give the money to the destitute, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come back and follow me."

Luke 12:34 Because where your treasure is, there your heart will be also."

Hebrews 13:5 Keep your lives free from the love of money, and be content with what you have, for God has said, "I will never leave you or abandon you."
__________________________________________________ ____________

Its hard to Tithe when we build our lives around credit, and debt. Our bills over flow, then when we realize what we are suppose to do, that part gets put on the back burner. God first, then other things should follow.
We do not Tithe most of the time because we live beyond our means.

The electric, water companies will not take Fruits, or material items for payment. Its not the responsibility of the Church to sell stuff in hopes of gaining enough monies to pay the bills, help the poor etc. In the old days, they might have taken a goat or a donkey as payment, however today that will not work.
It takes money, clothes,food, manual labor,prayers,tears, and so much more to make Gods House work.

To love something, or someone with all your heart, mind, and soul takes more than just giving money, or labor, or material items.

I think you should give as much as can when you can. Getting our priorities in order.

Much giving, much demanded.

I also want to stress that God is not a Bank, or a Magic Genie that will boost your income just because you give. No, God doesn't work like that. The blessings we give may not be seen or experienced by us, we do not know what our blessings do all the time.
We are storing up our treasures in Heaven.

Emanate
Dec 17th 2008, 08:02 PM
Tithing is God's Law, not mine. He first introduced it to the children of Israel. Its all about obedience, and you should always tithed in proportion to your faith.

Its all over the bible; tithes, offerings, and alms...


Tithing was commanded to sustain the sacrificial system. Outside of the Temple priesthood that carried out the sacrificial system, you will find no mention of tithe ever. Hebrews 9-11 clearly states that the sacrificial system has passed away (as we can see with our eyes today). Tithing outside of sacrificing animals in the temple is a perversion of scripture.

reformedct
Dec 17th 2008, 08:11 PM
Paul and Peter WROTE THE BIBLE

PETER WAS REPRTEDLY CRUCIFIED UPSIDE DOWN

PAUL SUFFERED IN JAIL, WENT HUNGRY, GOT BEAT UP BY FALSE TEACHERS

MOST APOSTLES WERE MURDERED BRUTALLY


JESUS CHRIST GOD IN THE FLESH NEVER SINNED AT ALL PERIOD.

LETS LOOK AT HIS PROSPERITY SHALL WE?

1- homeless
2-poor
3-despised
4-suffered many things including the cross


OBEDIENCE DOES NOT ALWAYS MEAN PROSPERITy ON EARTH

OBEDIENCE AND DISOBEDIENCE ALWAYS EQUAL THE WILL OF GOD BEING DONE

you can obey all you want, but if God appointed that you be hungry and suffer for a season or even until death, that is what you will have


I REALLY HOPE YOU DO NOT CONSIDER BENNY HINN TO BE A DISCIPLE THAT WE LOOK UP TO IN THE BODY OF CHRIST.

If you do,

nothing we say will ever help you. Giving honor to Benny Hinn shows a lack of serious discernmetn, and perhaps a lack of the Holy Spirit of Truth completley

mikebr
Dec 17th 2008, 08:13 PM
I asked a question the other day and it went completely ignored. The Beatitudes speak of our blessings yet as Americans we still believe that blessings are material. What if its all taken away; are we blessed or not? I am blessed by Who I know not what I have. Keep your prosperity, I'd rather have Jesus. I can have everything and still have nothing or I can have nothing and still have Everything.

reformedct
Dec 17th 2008, 08:14 PM
JESUS also said there has not been a greater prophet than John the Baptist

John ate bugs
John lived in the wilderness
and then John got his head cut off

you don't understand God's will

Emanate
Dec 17th 2008, 08:20 PM
JESUS also said there has not been a greater prophet than John the Baptist

John ate bugs
John lived in the wilderness
and then John got his head cut off

you don't understand God's will


Perhaps you might temper that as to edify, and not condemn.

reformedct
Dec 17th 2008, 08:27 PM
Perhaps you might temper that as to edify, and not condemn.

im sorry you are right and i apologize.

i could have said that more humbly and less condemning


i just hate the prosperity gospel because i beleieve it is a perversion

Jesus is our prosperity!:pp He is God, He has loved us and died for us and now we get to be with Him forever. The most powerful source of energy and love in the universe has brought us to Him. At his right hand are pleasures forever more. In heaven there are streets of Gold, because or King is rich. Jesus is the prosperit and all the prosperity we need.

this is why i hate the "God will make you rich in earhtly riches if you obey" doctrine

Thank you

Emanate
Dec 17th 2008, 08:31 PM
im sorry you are right and i apologize.

i could have said that more humbly and less condemning


i just hate the prosperity gospel because i beleieve it is a perversion

Jesus is our prosperity!:pp He is God, He has loved us and died for us and now we get to be with Him forever. The most powerful source of energy and love in the universe has brought us to Him. At his right hand are pleasures forever more. In heaven there are streets of Gold, because or King is rich. Jesus is the prosperit and all the prosperity we need.

this is why i hate the "God will make you rich in earhtly riches if you obey" doctrine

Thank you

I used to be a proponent of the prosperity message and teachers, so I can understand your passion about this issue.

mikebr
Dec 17th 2008, 08:34 PM
I used to use the example of a New Red Ford F-150. If you pray for God to give you one all you get is something that devalues the minute you drive it off the lot, will cost you a fortune in gas, oil, upkeep and insurance and will be worthless by the time you get it paid for. Why would God give you that type of gift?

reformedct
Dec 17th 2008, 08:59 PM
I just want people to see the beauty of Christ

Christ is so awesome, that even if you are poor or hungry, you can rejoice in Him and his kingdom to come

that being said, it is not a sin to be wealthy

Job was very very wealthy and after he suffered he was twice as wealthy.

It is a sin to be a bad steward of what God has entrusted to you.

God decides who will be rich and be poor. It is a matter of the heart.

There are righteous people who happen to be rich, there are righteous that happen to be poor.

Can you imagine what may have happened, if paul or peter were given a ton of wealth? my guess is that they would use it to expand the kingdom(however it is not money that spreads the gospel, but the power of the Holy Spirit) maybe God knew that even they would be distracted by materials so he let them have the little that they did. I don;t know

I'm not against wealth.

Im against an attitude that says:
OK i obeyed God know you owe me where is my health and wealth

Like John Piper said, God is most glorified in us when we are most satisfied in Him:pp

keck553
Dec 17th 2008, 09:47 PM
The Gospel doesn't require money to spread. All it requires are diciples of Jesus who are willing to give freely what they have received freely.

What we must do now, in the face of this unholy teaching is to expose the false teachers and false prophets who make the innocent ones twice as fit for hell as they are. The disappointment in empty man-made promises and the resulting enmity created between people souls and God - wondering why they have not received these empty promises - wondering if they truely have the love of the LORD and salvation itself - is rooted in evil.

I think the best way to receive prosperity is to work, as God commanded us to do 6 days per week.

The tithe was a levy that went to Levites. In Messiah, WE are the priests. While I see nothing wrong with supporting local congregations and charitly missions, and I do, the command God and Yeshua stresses over and over again is to help the widow, the orphan and the poor. In these times, I extend the term 'widow' to single moms.

All believers should fulfill the commands of Tzedakah (charity) to help any needy person they may run into.

This is a command for that both praciticning Jews and Christians alike abide in. Torah is filled with commnads to help the needy, and not surprsingly Yeshua affirms the evil eye is the one who will not help thier brothers or sisters in need.

The truth is that obeying God always reaps blessinigs, howver God knows what we need much better than we do, and I tell the truth that rarely what we need for abundance is money and stuff.

None of these commands have anything to do with handing our hard earned money over to shenanigans who falsly teach God's promises of abundance comes in the form of man made stuff.

My advice would be to NEVER give any portion to the tamei of this world. Surely they have their reward here.

Mysteryman
Dec 17th 2008, 10:02 PM
Tithing is God's Law, not mine. He first introduced it to the children of Israel. Its all about obedience, and you should always tithed in proportion to your faith.

Its all over the bible; tithes, offerings, and alms...

Its God's law according to the Law of Moses -- Only !

We no longer live under the law of the tithe !

Bladers
Dec 17th 2008, 10:12 PM
im sorry you are right and i apologize.

i could have said that more humbly and less condemning


i just hate the prosperity gospel because i beleieve it is a perversion

Jesus is our prosperity!:pp He is God, He has loved us and died for us and now we get to be with Him forever. The most powerful source of energy and love in the universe has brought us to Him. At his right hand are pleasures forever more. In heaven there are streets of Gold, because or King is rich. Jesus is the prosperit and all the prosperity we need.

this is why i hate the "God will make you rich in earhtly riches if you obey" doctrine

Thank you

My friend its all over the bible, if they hate prosperity, then God wont bless you in that area. If you hate it, you are hating a apart of God's word.

People who say God doesnt heal, then God wont heal them... its simple as that.

Why dont you cut out every where it talks about tithing, offering, sowing, and alms in the bible? If you do, you would be destroying the Word of God. But that is what you do each time you speak against it.

Also, how dare you tell me what holy spirit i have?, He is not a thing. He is a precious person.

reformedct
Dec 17th 2008, 10:18 PM
Its God's law according to the Law of Moses -- Only !

We no longer live under the law of the tithe !


this is correct i believe. I saw a sermon stating that we are no longer under the 10% rule. However, i believe there are numerous commands in the new testament for us to give money to support ministry and the poor with what we have, and to do it cheerfully.

The speaker said something along the lines of the new covenant church historically was known for giving upwards of 30% or more. The point is that our giving should be an act of worship and it should be sacrificial.

For some extremely poor, tithing 5% may be devastating, for some extremely wealthy tithing 75% would be nothing.

I believe God is not so concerned with the percentage, but the attitude of the heart. Are we cheerfully giving a legitimate sacrifice?

That being said, since we know God commanded 10% in the OT, we should at least try to maintain that 10% out of love, and work our way up from that as He leads us or presses on our hearts.

Remember giving is supposed to be cheerful. Not a drag. Check your heart before you sow a seed

keck553
Dec 17th 2008, 10:21 PM
My friend its all over the bible, if they hate prosperity, then God wont bless you in that area. If you hate it, you are hating a apart of God's word.

People who say God doesnt heal, then God wont heal them... its simple as that.

Why dont you cut out every where it talks about tithing, offering, sowing, and alms in the bible? If you do, you would be destroying the Word of God. But that is what you do each time to speak against it.

Also, how dare you tell me what holy spirit i have?, He is not a thing. He is a precious person.

I think what reformedct hates is false teachings. I join him on that one.

reformedct
Dec 17th 2008, 10:35 PM
My friend its all over the bible, if they hate prosperity, then God wont bless you in that area. If you hate it, you are hating a apart of God's word.

People who say God doesnt heal, then God wont heal them... its simple as that.

Why dont you cut out every where it talks about tithing, offering, sowing, and alms in the bible? If you do, you would be destroying the Word of God. But that is what you do each time to speak against it.

Also, how dare you tell me what holy spirit i have?, He is not a thing. He is a precious person.


Let me try to be very clear

I do not hate prosperity

I hate making prosperity and healing the root of our joy

Job was prosperous, no problem

but did you also know the bible says do not store up riches on earth?

It is not a sin to be prosperous. It is a sin to be unsatisfied unless you are prosperous. That would make prosperity your functional savior.

Your heaven is riches, so without riches, you are sad.

However if Heaven is Being with God, we can always rejoice in him and be happy and satisfied

as Paul said, i have learned to be with and to be without and he also commanded us to rejoice in the lord always

Paul or Peter (i forget which one) believed God could heal their thorn in the flesh, they prayed and prayed, but God said my grace is suficient.

If you tell people, just believe and have faith and it will be done, you will be lying to them and then they will think God is a liar.

Sometimes God does not heal because He has a bigger plan.

I have faith that God can do anything. That does mean he is my slave and when I have faith for something HE HAS TO DO IT.

I saw this sad story before

a man taught this WORD/FAITH doctrine

he said: if you have enough faith you will be healed

then his wife got sick with terminal cancer

this man publicly rebuked his sick wife for not having enough faith, as she lay in bed sufferring.

That is very sad.

God does heal, and God does give wealth. But just cuz you say, I have faith that God will never let me get sick and give me great financial blessing doesn;t mean God HAS to do it. God is not our slaves. We are His slaves. We are bondservants of the Lord.

If you say faith= guranteed by God

that means you are saying all the poor Christians in 3rd world contries are lacking in faith. Jesus had sinless perfect faith, and he suffered many things.

I am trying to be humble as i can. Please understand God may want to teach you something about life by letting you experience pain.

A preacher i know went on a mission trip to Asia and was sick most of the time, vomiting while he was there. He even had to go to the hospital

but you know what he said?
"those were some of the sweetest times with the Lord i ever had"

It was not that he didn't have faith to be healed or not. He begged God to heal him and at one point comically said God just kill me lol he was joking about it but i just don't want you to think God is your servant.

BELIEVE IT doesnt always equal RECIEVE IT

right now i have a little congestion in my throat and excess phlegm. I know God can heal me. I believe Him 100%, but i still have it. Does that mean I don't have faith? no. and even if he never heals me He is a good and precious God and one day i will be with Him forever

please do not lie to people and tell them they can just push God around with their "Faith". God cannot be forced to do anything just because of our "Faith"

reformedct
Dec 17th 2008, 10:44 PM
the bible is not a magic book to control God

we don't use it to chant scriptures like withtces and then God automatically does what we say

Witchcraft is trying to get control over spirits to do your bidding

i humbly believe Word/Faith Believe it/Recieve it doctrine is borderline withccraft and very disrespectul to the Almighty God

once again i say i do not hate prosperity. Nothing wrong with that.

But we cannot say God HAS TO DO WHATEVER WE SAY IF WE HAVE FAITH

if that is true, then we control God with our faith

Bladers, do you believe God is in submission to your faith?


God does tell us to ask what we will, but we must always pray that His kinggdom come, His will be done. Not ours

keck553
Dec 17th 2008, 10:48 PM
refformedct,

I don't know how to thank you for your words above. The Spirit of God's wisdom is surely embedded in your post. Praise God.

I think it should be mandatory your statement is posted prior to every GTV broadcast.

God bless you!

ears2hear
Dec 17th 2008, 10:51 PM
Well, if God does allow a believer to become prosperous, he/she best use it for HIS Kingdom.

I believe that God isn't making the vast majority of us rich because He knows we couldn't handle it!

I truly believe that the prosperity/word of faith gospel is a lousy but effective money grab.

Also, if my church decides to actually use some of that money to feed the hungry and clothe the poor...then that is when I will start giving my offering to the church instead of the other places I do (most of which have nothing to do with religion):rolleyes:

We actually went to a church for three years that when they were able to finally burn their mortgage contract, they really started throwing the tithes and offerings into programs for the hungry and the poor. It is still extremely effective and many souls are being saved because they are actually putting their money where their mouth is. Most churches are pretty lousy at going without.

Mysteryman
Dec 17th 2008, 10:51 PM
Under the new covenant , everything is based upon love. Giving and receiving is based upon love. You can give your body to be burned, and you can give all that you have, but without love your giving is nothing !

Love is also based upon truth. Loving God and loving our neighbor as ourselves. II Corinth. chapter 8 deals with this specifically. Equality. Not equal in our riches ! But equality in what I have and what someone else lacks. We don't have to live the same life style. We don't have to drive the same car on an equal cost bases. But we do need to take care of the church and its needs. The church are the household of faith. God tells us to be good to all, but especially unto the household of faith.

We need to line up our faith with the New covenant ! Not the old covenant !

reformedct
Dec 17th 2008, 10:57 PM
Under the new covenant , everything is based upon love. Giving and receiving is based upon love. You can give your body to be burned, and you can give all that you have, but without love your giving is nothing !

Love is also based upon truth. Loving God and loving our neighbor as ourselves. II Corinth. chapter 8 deals with this specifically. Equality. Not equal in our riches ! But equality in what I have and what someone else lacks. We don't have to live the same life style. We don't have to drive the same car on an equal cost bases. But we do need to take care of the church and its needs. The church are the household of faith. God tells us to be good to all, but especially unto the household of faith.

We need to line up our faith with the New covenant ! Not the old covenant !


Amen! great verse too! we can give EVERYTHING WE HAVE but without love, its all a waste.

It's all about love for the believer

Bladers
Dec 17th 2008, 11:07 PM
the bible is not a magic book to control God

we don't use it to chant scriptures like withtces and then God automatically does what we say

Witchcraft is trying to get control over spirits to do your bidding

i humbly believe Word/Faith Believe it/Recieve it doctrine is borderline withccraft and very disrespectul to the Almighty God

once again i say i do not hate prosperity. Nothing wrong with that.

But we cannot say God HAS TO DO WHATEVER WE SAY IF WE HAVE FAITH

if that is true, then we control God with our faith

Bladers, do you believe God is in submission to your faith?


God does tell us to ask what we will, but we must always pray that His kinggdom come, His will be done. Not ours

We do not control God, you cant control God. He can do what ever he likes. But God responds to our prayers, supplication and faith.

Without faith no one can please God... You cant even believe Jesus is Lord without faith...

Prophet Daniel
Dec 17th 2008, 11:12 PM
Levitical priesthood=old testament=moses
Melchisedek priesthood=new testament

Bible says latter has nothing to do with the former in the priesthood context Hebrews7

Tithing ie. a tenth is of the Levitical priesthood Heb7:5.
They gave themselves as an offering to God in the Melchisedek priesthood.

New testament Father/Son relationship not one rule counts for all.

Example: John Smith earns $10 000 a month. His breadline and overheads amount to $9500. He has to "tithe" $1000. He stays hungry and incurs debts so that he later has to sell something.

Peter Lown earns $500 000 a month his breadline and overheads is $50 000 a month. He has to "tithe" $50 000. He has $400 000 spare

Is this fair in God's eyes?

reformedct
Dec 17th 2008, 11:21 PM
We do not control God, you cant control God. He can do what ever he likes. But God responds to our prayers, supplication and faith.

Without faith no one can please God... You cant even believe Jesus is Lord without faith...


ok i think we are getting somewhere,

let me ask you this specific question:

do you believe that if you have faith for a specific thing, God will respond by giving you that specific thing because of your faith, no matter what?


Now let me say this, obedience to the Lord always leads to blessing. Primarily to God because he is honored, second to us because as we honor God we are changed by Him and feel more complete in Him and experience the blessings of that obedience. Also others are blessed. I do believe in that form of prosperity


However, i think you are trying to imply that if you ask for blessing xyz God will give you xyz if you have enough faith. Is this what you are implying?


Or better yet let me simply ask this question. If you don't answer any others at least answer this one.

Do you believe its possible to obey God and have faith in God to do something and that He still may not do it because he has something else planned?

by the way i apologize for my angry demeanor earlier, i didn't have to be That mean, but i do think that believe it/recieve it doctrine and preaching can sometimes be misleading and many times is used by televangelist to make people feel challenged to "sow a seed" in their "ministry"

keck553
Dec 17th 2008, 11:24 PM
We do not control God, you cant control God. He can do what ever he likes. But God responds to our prayers, supplication and faith.

Without faith no one can please God... You cant even believe Jesus is Lord without faith...

God teaches us through our faith and trust in Him, that His instructions for us are worthy, holy and good. What does He teach us? How to live. How to proclaim the Gospel to help Him bring the dead to life. In doing that we get blessed in an awesome relationship with our Creator through the cleansing intervention of our Kohen Gadol, Christ Jesus. These blessings aren't gold rings, fancy cars and big screen TV's. These blessings are life - shalom, compassion, confidence, rightousness, justice, mercy, grace. These are the things all souls yearn for. It is a mistake to think that money can purchase any free gift from Elohim.

God is not Santa Claus. He doesn't give you candy if you're 'good.' He offers soemthing much greater - eternal life in His presence.

Raybob
Dec 18th 2008, 01:40 AM
One MAJOR problem about any "prosperity" is the biblical meaning of "prosperity". It has absolutely nothing to do with financial wealth. The word "prosperity" in the bible, was translated from many words but none of them spoke of material wealth or money at all.

I'll post here a few words that were translated in the KJV into "prosperity" with their definitions. "wealth" was part of one of the definitions but that word meant so many more things than just wealth. Wealth is found in none of the others:

H2896
טוב
ṭôb
tobe
From H2895; good (as an adjective) in the widest sense; used likewise as a noun, both in the masculine and the feminine, the singular and the plural (good, a good or good thing, a good man or woman; the good, goods or good things, good men or women), also as an adverb (well): - beautiful, best, better, bountiful, cheerful, at ease, X fair (word), (be in) favour, fine, glad, good (deed, -lier, liest, -ly, -ness, -s), graciously, joyful, kindly, kindness, liketh (best), loving, merry, X most, pleasant, + pleaseth, pleasure, precious, prosperity, ready, sweet, wealth, welfare, (be) well ([-favoured]).

H7965
שׁלם שׁלום
shâlôm shâlôm
shaw-lome', shaw-lome'
From H7999; safe, that is, (figuratively) well, happy, friendly; also (abstractly) welfare, that is, health, prosperity, peace: - X do, familiar, X fare, favour, + friend, X greet, (good) health, (X perfect, such as be at) peace (-able, -ably), prosper (-ity, -ous), rest, safe (-ly), salute, welfare, (X all is, be) well, X wholly.

H7965
שׁלם שׁלום
shâlôm shâlôm
shaw-lome', shaw-lome'
From H7999; safe, that is, (figuratively) well, happy, friendly; also (abstractly) welfare, that is, health, prosperity, peace: - X do, familiar, X fare, favour, + friend, X greet, (good) health, (X perfect, such as be at) peace (-able, -ably), prosper (-ity, -ous), rest, safe (-ly), salute, welfare, (X all is, be) well, X wholly.

H6743
צלח צלח
tsâlach tsâlêach
tsaw-lakh', tsaw-lay'-akh
A primitive root; to push forward, in various senses (literally or figuratively, transitively or intransitively): - break out, come (mightily), go over, be good, be meet, be profitable, (cause to, effect, make to, send) prosper (-ity, -ous, -ously).

H7962
שׁלוה
shalvâh
shal-vaw'
From H7951; security (genuine or false): - abundance, peace (-ably), prosperity, quietness.

This names a few. Biblical prosperity speaks of good health, peace, quietness, things that money can't buy.

Raybob

billy-brown 2
Jan 25th 2009, 02:57 AM
One MAJOR problem about any "prosperity" is the biblical meaning of "prosperity". It has absolutely nothing to do with financial wealth. The word "prosperity" in the bible, was translated from many words but none of them spoke of material wealth or money at all.

I'll post here a few words that were translated in the KJV into "prosperity" with their definitions. "wealth" was part of one of the definitions but that word meant so many more things than just wealth. Wealth is found in none of the others:

H2896
טוב
ṭôb
tobe
From H2895; good (as an adjective) in the widest sense; used likewise as a noun, both in the masculine and the feminine, the singular and the plural (good, a good or good thing, a good man or woman; the good, goods or good things, good men or women), also as an adverb (well): - beautiful, best, better, bountiful, cheerful, at ease, X fair (word), (be in) favour, fine, glad, good (deed, -lier, liest, -ly, -ness, -s), graciously, joyful, kindly, kindness, liketh (best), loving, merry, X most, pleasant, + pleaseth, pleasure, precious, prosperity, ready, sweet, wealth, welfare, (be) well ([-favoured]).

H7965
שׁלם שׁלום
shâlôm shâlôm
shaw-lome', shaw-lome'
From H7999; safe, that is, (figuratively) well, happy, friendly; also (abstractly) welfare, that is, health, prosperity, peace: - X do, familiar, X fare, favour, + friend, X greet, (good) health, (X perfect, such as be at) peace (-able, -ably), prosper (-ity, -ous), rest, safe (-ly), salute, welfare, (X all is, be) well, X wholly.

H7965
שׁלם שׁלום
shâlôm shâlôm
shaw-lome', shaw-lome'
From H7999; safe, that is, (figuratively) well, happy, friendly; also (abstractly) welfare, that is, health, prosperity, peace: - X do, familiar, X fare, favour, + friend, X greet, (good) health, (X perfect, such as be at) peace (-able, -ably), prosper (-ity, -ous), rest, safe (-ly), salute, welfare, (X all is, be) well, X wholly.

H6743
צלח צלח
tsâlach tsâlêach
tsaw-lakh', tsaw-lay'-akh
A primitive root; to push forward, in various senses (literally or figuratively, transitively or intransitively): - break out, come (mightily), go over, be good, be meet, be profitable, (cause to, effect, make to, send) prosper (-ity, -ous, -ously).

H7962
שׁלוה
shalvâh
shal-vaw'
From H7951; security (genuine or false): - abundance, peace (-ably), prosperity, quietness.

This names a few. Biblical prosperity speaks of good health, peace, quietness, things that money can't buy.

Raybob

Yep . . . what he said . . . ^

The topic of the OP represents another classic case of the need to have a "Hebrew mind" in the understanding of Bible truths.

For those who understand "prosperity teaching" only with an "Americanized mind", you might want to consider a renewing of your mind to the truth of the Hebrew scriptures (the Tanakh).

The English translations of two applicable passages (of many) are offered:

Psalm 1

1:1 How blessed is the one who does not follow of the wicked, the advice or stand in the pathway with sinners, or sit in the assembly of scoffers!

1:2 Instead he finds pleasure in obeying the Lord’s commands; he meditates on his commands day and night.

1:3 He is like a tree planted by flowing streams; it yields its fruit at the proper time, and its leaves never fall off. He succeeds in everything he attempts.

1:4 Not so with the wicked! Instead they are like wind-driven chaff.

1:5 For this reason the wicked cannot withstand judgment, nor can sinners join the assembly of the godly.

1:6 Certainly the Lord guards the way of the godly, but the way of the wicked ends in destruction.

and Joshua 1:1-9:

1:1 After Moses the Lord’s servant died, the Lord said to Joshua son of Nun, Moses’ assistant:

1:2 “Moses my servant is dead. Get ready! Cross the Jordan River! Lead these people into the land which I am ready to hand over to them.

1:3 I am handing over to you every place you set foot, as I promised Moses.

1:4 Your territory will extend from the wilderness in the south to Lebanon in the north. It will extend all the way to the great River Euphrates in the east (including all of Syria) and all the way to the Mediterranean Sea in the west.

1:5 No one will be able to resist you all the days of your life. As I was with Moses, so I will be with you. I will not abandon you or leave you alone.

1:6 Be strong and brave! You must lead these people in the conquest of this land that I solemnly promised their ancestors I would hand over to them.

1:7 Make sure you are very strong and brave! Carefully obey all the law my servant Moses charged you to keep! Do not swerve from it to the right or to the left, so that you may be successful in all you do.

1:8 This law scroll must not leave your lips!
You must memorize it day and night so you can carefully obey all that is written in it. Then you will prosper and be successful.

1:9 I repeat, be strong and brave! Don’t be afraid and don’t panic, for I, the Lord your God, am with you in all you do.”

Now the Hebrew word for the large letter words in the scriptures above have been given already by Raybob in his post:

H6743
צלח צלח
tsâlach tsâlêach
tsaw-lakh', tsaw-lay'-akh
A primitive root; to push forward, in various senses (literally or figuratively, transitively or intransitively): - break out, come (mightily), go over, be good, be meet, be profitable, (cause to, effect, make to, send) prosper (-ity, -ous, -ously).

It seems to me that "prosperity" here is a concept where any individual involved "with delight and/or meditation in the Law" will "do well in their tasks" or "achieve profitable things in their journey" and so on . . .

Notice what is conspicuous by its absence from the concept of tsâlach צלח צלח: all of the things that the "Americanized mind" can think of as being present in the "prosperity" concept (money, wealth, fame, fortune, 7 mansions, 12 cars . . .).

The point of all of this seems clear enough: Bible Prosperity is taught in the scriptures, but it takes a renewed mind (a Hebrew mind) to grasp what the Lord is really saying about it . . .

Indeed, this is something for all Christians to think again about . . .

Cheers,

Billy-brown 2

:pp

New Creation
Jan 26th 2009, 12:47 AM
The term “prosperity teaching” or “prosperity Gospel” is one of the most misunderstood and misused in today’s language.

Hi Bladers! I am interested in your take on this article. It's called "Prosperity Preachers and Financial Gain". Please read it fully and then let me know what you think. Blessings! and Thanks!

Here is the link:
http://www.puregospeltruth.com/prosperity_preachers_and_financial_gain.html