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Tuto
Dec 14th 2008, 03:02 PM
That god would consider homosexuality as a sin. The more i think about it the more petty and unbelievable it sounds. I was out with a couple of friends of mine and we went to a gay club and i just didn't see anything wrong with the people there. The idea that i would one day think there was something wrong with homosexuality feels like believing in something that I know in your heart isnt true.

tango
Dec 14th 2008, 03:14 PM
You could say much the same about any other sin that society has come to regard as normal. I'll bet if you went to a swingers' club you'd see lots of people there and not see anything wrong with them, but God also says adultery and fornications are sins.

The fact that society tolerates something doesn't mean it goes against what God wants for us.

Tuto
Dec 14th 2008, 04:53 PM
You could say much the same about any other sin that society has come to regard as normal. I'll bet if you went to a swingers' club you'd see lots of people there and not see anything wrong with them, but God also says adultery and fornications are sins.

The fact that society tolerates something doesn't mean it goes against what God wants for us.

If that makes them happy then so what? Why would a higher power care about something like that?

MrAnteater
Dec 14th 2008, 05:05 PM
That god would consider homosexuality as a sin. The more i think about it the more petty and unbelievable it sounds. I was out with a couple of friends of mine and we went to a gay club and i just didn't see anything wrong with the people there. The idea that i would one day think there was something wrong with homosexuality feels like believing in something that I know in your heart isnt true.

Homosexuality is a sin and is condemned throughout the bible:

Gen 19:4-9
Lev 20:13
Lev 18:22
Rom 1:26-27
1 Cor 6:9
1 Tim 1:10

We are called to be in the world but not of the world. Homosexuality is an agenda being pushed in society and like many other worldly values, is unacceptable to God. God gives us these laws to protect us from destructive behavior. Nobody debates that sins like alcoholism, drug addiction, adultery, bestiality should be avoided and repented. Homosexuality is out-of-control lust and confusion. It is not how God designed us.

What is in our "heart" is unreliable and irrelevant. Our emotions can deceive us and only God's will is 100% reliable.

1 John 3:20 for whenever our heart condemns us, God is greater than our heart, and he knows everything.

I think you need more time to mature your faith and really study scripture and pray. If you haven't accepted Jesus yet than that's fine. Consider accepting him as your savor and you will find truth, peace, and sense in this crazy world!

Of course, we shouldn't be hateful to homosexuals and we should love them like any other lost sinner. But reaching out to them doesn't mean we endorse their lifestyle. If we as believers were to ignore their sin, what was the point of Jesus condemning sin and dying on the cross for all of us?

tango
Dec 14th 2008, 05:52 PM
If that makes them happy then so what? Why would a higher power care about something like that?

But if you're taking that approach where do you draw the line? If you want to ask why a higher power would care, why would a higher power care if we go round killing each other?

As soon as you start asking why God cares about things, you're effectively saying that God doesn't fit into your mould. Unfortunately things don't work that way - the simple fact is that God does care.

If we decide that our way is better than God's way, that's when we are sinning. That's the mistake Lucifer made before being cast out of heaven, he decided that he wanted to be greater than God. In the same way every time we go our way instead of God's way, we are effectively telling God that he doesn't know what he's talking about and we know better. That way just doesn't work.

Tuto
Dec 14th 2008, 08:19 PM
But if you're taking that approach where do you draw the line? If you want to ask why a higher power would care, why would a higher power care if we go round killing each other?

As soon as you start asking why God cares about things, you're effectively saying that God doesn't fit into your mould. Unfortunately things don't work that way - the simple fact is that God does care.

If we decide that our way is better than God's way, that's when we are sinning. That's the mistake Lucifer made before being cast out of heaven, he decided that he wanted to be greater than God. In the same way every time we go our way instead of God's way, we are effectively telling God that he doesn't know what he's talking about and we know better. That way just doesn't work.

Isn't there a pretty big difference between killing somebody and being gay? For starters when you are gay that is your business, but when you kill somebody you affect others.

daughter
Dec 14th 2008, 08:22 PM
Hey Tuto

Can I just ask... do you accept that God has the right to tell us how we should live? That if He made us, then He knows best what is right for us, and just like a human parent, might have the authority to say what is right and wrong?

Get off the gay thing for a moment, that's a stumbling block that I had while I was in the world. Think logically first, in a dispassionate way.

daughter
Dec 14th 2008, 08:23 PM
Isn't there a pretty big difference between killing somebody and being gay? For starters when you are gay that is your business, but when you kill somebody you affect others.
One could argue, on this logic, that God doesn't care when people self harm, or take drugs, or commit suicide.

Tanya~
Dec 14th 2008, 08:24 PM
If that makes them happy then so what? Why would a higher power care about something like that?

God isn't just a "higher power." He is our Creator, and He made us by design and with a purpose. He made a woman for the man so that they could be joined together and be one flesh. This was designed to reveal something about the relationship between Christ and those who believe in Him.

Male with male or female with female or human with another species perverts God's purpose and intention.

People who are not believers will do all sorts of things that are unacceptable to God and homosexuality is just one of those things. As a non-Christian it isn't unusual that you would approve of those things but if you hear God's call and want to come to Him, it will be on His terms not yours. We are to repent of our old way of believing, thinking and living, and turn to Him to save us from sin. Homosexuality and other sins lead to death.

markinro
Dec 14th 2008, 08:39 PM
Isn't there a pretty big difference between killing somebody and being gay? For starters when you are gay that is your business, but when you kill somebody you affect others.

God is no respector of persons. Sin is sin - murder, homosexuality, stealing, lying, etc. It all results in separation from His presence. He gave up His ONE and ONLY Son so that you and homosexuals may have life and have it more abundantly. Are all of you willing to suffer for all eternity because of your ego ?

Matt 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear Him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
PRO 1:7 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction.

He that saves his life shall lose it: and he that loses his life for My sake shall save it.

Gregg
Dec 15th 2008, 02:04 PM
If that makes them happy then so what? Why would a higher power care about something like that?


A lot of things that start out fun or seems to make us happy actually ends up in a dead end and often times hurts us as well as those around us. God is not a kill joy, his rules are to lovingly protect us. In the begining we are blind to those outcomes because we want what we want. No alcoholic or drug addict started off with the intention of being addicted, we just wanted to have a little fun.

I am a sinner in need of a Savior. The Bible teaches me that all are sinners in need of a Savior. My Savior says that I am to love my neighbor as myself (he doesn't say except for the kinds of sinners that I might disaprove of). He paid the price for my sins and has given me eternal life with him, not by being "good" but by grace. Now something amazing has happened. I actually want to sin less. He will complete the work he started here when I go to be with him. When you get to know him it is much different than you might imagine.

God Bless you and yours.

tango
Dec 15th 2008, 02:15 PM
Isn't there a pretty big difference between killing somebody and being gay? For starters when you are gay that is your business, but when you kill somebody you affect others.

The point is that you are assuming we know at least as well as God knows. When you were a child I expect you'd have eaten all the chocolate, sweets and cakes you could lay your hands on if your parents had given you the chance (I certainly would have done).

The point is my parents knew that eating that much cake would make me ill and fat. I didn't understand the concepts of diet when I was five years old, so didn't understand how much damage I would have done myself had I eaten nothing but cake.

Had my parents simply shrugged and said "as long as it makes him happy, what business is it of ours?", where would that have left me?

moonglow
Dec 15th 2008, 03:20 PM
That god would consider homosexuality as a sin. The more i think about it the more petty and unbelievable it sounds. I was out with a couple of friends of mine and we went to a gay club and i just didn't see anything wrong with the people there. The idea that i would one day think there was something wrong with homosexuality feels like believing in something that I know in your heart isnt true.


Its actually not loving to say what you have said because its like saying its ok if they get HIV or AIDES...or don't live as long...

Before I became a born again Christian I went to a gay bar with a gay friend of mine for New Years Eve...what I saw was sickening...for many nonbelievers, because this goes against the nature grain of things, even they have a problem with it. Everyone thinks its just us 'Christians' that have a problem with it because of what the bible says...not true. Those most hateful towards homosexuals aren't Christians...they are naturally repulsed by it. Its not what we see around us in most people and in nature. People and animals were set up to procreate..something not naturally possible among homosexual couples without help..

While you think this is just between two people and affects no one else...its not true. Everything we do affects others...especially sin. Sin never happens in a void.

The fact is homosexual men have a shorter life span...and many that say they are homosexuals are actually bisexual so STD to spread from the gay community to the heterosexual community. I could provide tons of data showing how this lifestyle has harmed so many in many different ways.

Going by what your 'gut' says is only saying you think you and others are smarter then our Creator...

As someone else pointed out God set these rules to protect us because He loves us. If everyone followed His rules there would be no babies dying of AIDES right now...no STD at all! But since we think we are smarter then Him....and what to do what we want to do, now millions have died from AIDES. When we do it our way, we usually end up killing ourselves...not very smart if you ask me...

MacGyver
Dec 16th 2008, 03:09 AM
That god would consider homosexuality as a sin. The more i think about it the more petty and unbelievable it sounds. I was out with a couple of friends of mine and we went to a gay club and i just didn't see anything wrong with the people there. The idea that i would one day think there was something wrong with homosexuality feels like believing in something that I know in your heart isnt true.First of all my Faith calls everyone of us the chastity, whether you are straight or gay, we are all required to be chaste. This means that sexual relations are between married couples only. Therefore according to the design of God, marrige is between a man and a woman. There are reaons why too, one is because of procreation. Second, it symbolizes the marriage between Christ and His Bride the Church. Homosexuality is contrary to both of those.

ServantofTruth
Dec 18th 2008, 08:57 AM
Tuto - like others, i'm glad you are here on the forums and asking questions. Things like this are like trees, when you stand behind one facing it there seems no way past. Take a step or 2 backwards and you see how easy it is. Walking through the 'forest' of our lives, there are thousands of trees, the trick is not to bump into them! :rofl:

Love SofTy.

mcgyver
Dec 18th 2008, 01:30 PM
That god would consider homosexuality as a sin. The more i think about it the more petty and unbelievable it sounds. I was out with a couple of friends of mine and we went to a gay club and i just didn't see anything wrong with the people there. The idea that i would one day think there was something wrong with homosexuality feels like believing in something that I know in your heart isnt true.

Tuto...What is the nature of Truth?

By definition, truth must be immutable...never changing...otherwise it's not really truth, is it?

Let me give you an analogy here and paint a picture, if I may:

Let's say you live in a country where everyone is starving...everyone is getting some food, but no one is getting enough. Physically, they are not getting enough food to sustain human life.

One day the minister of agriculture comes out and makes an announcement and says: "After extensive study by our esteemed scientists, we have good news for you! We have determined that you only need "X" calories per day to live, and everyone is getting at least "X+50" calories...so you're not really starving after all!"

Well, that's all well and good, the people feel better about things: they say "Great, we're not starving after all..hooray!!!"

But the truth is that they are still not consuming enough to sustain life and they will die of starvation eventually.

This is a picture of the issue of homosexuality. Psychiatrists can come out and say "it's just an alternative lifestyle", lawmakers can say "equal rights for all", magazines and the media can blitz people with ads and programs showing how it's "OK"....

But the truth is that it is aberrant behavior...the truth is that it is sinful behavior...the truth is that unrepentant sin leads to death and eternal damnation.

The truth is that it doesn't matter how you personally feel about it...because you are not the one who determines truth in the first place.

Tuto...here is the bottom line: The truth is that one day you, and I, and everyone who has ever lived will face God.

How will you face Him?

Will you meet Him as a beloved child of His, welcomed into eternal bliss...

Or will you face Him as the Righteous and Holy Judge of the universe from who's judgment there is no appeal; and face His wrath?

You've only got two choices: Repent and turn to Christ and live, or reject Christ and be eternally damned. And that's the simple....truth.

Dani H
Dec 18th 2008, 09:23 PM
If that makes them happy then so what? Why would a higher power care about something like that?

Because the things that make us "happy" also very often make us sick and destroy our lives as well as the lives of people around us. And the higher power didn't create us to destroy ourselves or others, we just choose to do so because many times we fail to really think through the consequences of our behavior and we are very short-sighted indeed.

I don't think I have to tell you the physical consequences of sexual sin as far as illness/viruses goes, do I? And that's just scratching the surface of things.

Nobody lives in a vacuum. Everything we do impacts other people. :)

joarku
Dec 19th 2008, 11:17 AM
Dear Tutu,

Feelings change, facts remain. Go by the facts and not feelings. For starters, God loves you! That is a fact.

Reese
Dec 19th 2008, 03:34 PM
Tuto,

I believe God created all things and even electricity.
male/female plugs only work one way. Otherwise, we get shocked
or worse. I'm halfway joking but serious at the same time.

Let me see if I can offer something here.
Homosexuality in and by itself, if 100%
everywhere (and you'd have to agree
with this) would in pretty much record
time destroy civilization, the human race as
we know it and certainly the family.
That is, unless everyone, everywhere
used artificial insem. which I guess isn't
too far fetched, anymore. But the
lifestyle--- it's an affront to the family.
God created the family with a mother
and a father for a purpose. People are
happy doing that? Probably because there
is pleasure in sin for a season:

Hebrews 11:25
He chose to be mistreated along with the
people of God rather than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a short time.

and they are for one thing, spiritually blind.
Without Christ, they can't know true
freedom and true life within or otherwise.

Homosexuality is not a condition, like
diabetes, or being deaf, it is not something
we're both with. It's a behavior. When
one becomes a Christian, they take
on a new nature. I know a woman
who after one marriage, one child, and scores
of boyfriends, now claims she was
"born this way" (she must have been
born again in a physical way at 26 yrs old! )
and has taken
on a lesbian relationship because she
says she is "tired of men"
she isn't born a lesbian, she's bailing
out, choosing a path where she won't
have to work on anymore male/female
relationships! People do a lot of things
that they believe cannot hurt anyone
and even if no one on the outside
is hurt, there is sometimes great
harm that we can't see happening
to our spirits and our eternal souls,
as well.

Tuto
Dec 26th 2008, 01:57 PM
Hey Tuto

Can I just ask... do you accept that God has the right to tell us how we should live? That if He made us, then He knows best what is right for us, and just like a human parent, might have the authority to say what is right and wrong?

Get off the gay thing for a moment, that's a stumbling block that I had while I was in the world. Think logically first, in a dispassionate way.

I don't know if I could ever accept that there is somebody telling what to do and what not do especially when it goes against my own reasoning and logic. In many ways that would take some of the fun out of life.

By the way sorry for taking so long to answer i have had a lot of school work and it made me forget about everything else.

tango
Dec 26th 2008, 04:05 PM
I don't know if I could ever accept that there is somebody telling what to do and what not do especially when it goes against my own reasoning and logic. In many ways that would take some of the fun out of life.

By the way sorry for taking so long to answer i have had a lot of school work and it made me forget about everything else.

Tuto, by the same argument what would you say to a 5-year-old refusing to accept their parents' refusing to hand over the big kitchen knife, because it goes against their reasoning that the big shiny knife would be fun to play with?

Tuto
Dec 27th 2008, 02:48 PM
Tuto, by the same argument what would you say to a 5-year-old refusing to accept their parents' refusing to hand over the big kitchen knife, because it goes against their reasoning that the big shiny knife would be fun to play with?

A child is a child. Their mind isn't developed enough to understand the dangers in their actions. But as full grown adults we can see the consequences of our actions, we can examine the results using science and figure out what can be done and what can't be done. For example i have never seen any scientific study which concludes that there is something wrong with homosexuality. If we as humans aren't allowed to use our abilities to explore the world around us and use this information to guide us then I think we would have died of extinction long ago.

dljc
Dec 27th 2008, 02:52 PM
A child is a child. Their mind isn't developed enough to understand the dangers in their actions. But as full grown adults we can see the consequences of our actions, we can examine the results using science and figure out what can be done and what can't be done. For example i have never seen any scientific study which concludes that there is something wrong with homosexuality. If we as humans aren't allowed to use our abilities to explore the world around us and use this information to guide us then I think we would have died of extinction long ago.Tuto,

Do you no longer make mistakes as an adult?

Tuto
Dec 27th 2008, 02:55 PM
Because the things that make us "happy" also very often make us sick and destroy our lives as well as the lives of people around us. And the higher power didn't create us to destroy ourselves or others, we just choose to do so because many times we fail to really think through the consequences of our behavior and we are very short-sighted indeed.

I don't think I have to tell you the physical consequences of sexual sin as far as illness/viruses goes, do I? And that's just scratching the surface of things.

Nobody lives in a vacuum. Everything we do impacts other people. :)

These days we have contraceptions that are getting better and better. Probably soon we will have a way of contraception which is literally bulletproof when used correctly. At some point we will probably have a cure for all sexual diseases. At point where can you see the effect of this sexual sin?

Dani H
Dec 27th 2008, 03:02 PM
These days we have contraceptions that are getting better and better. Probably soon we will have a way of contraception which is literally bulletproof when used correctly. At some point we will probably have a cure for all sexual diseases. At point where can you see the effect of this sexual sin?

Contraception is all good and well but that won't protect you from such wondrous things like AIDS and herpes.

And, for every cure we find, two more strands of virus or bacteria pop up that we are completely powerless against. Are you willing to stake your life against "at some point ... probably?" Because I'm not. :)

Tuto
Dec 27th 2008, 03:07 PM
Tuto,

Do you no longer make mistakes as an adult?

Of course, everybody makes mistakes. The most important thing to do is learn from them. When talking about mistakes according to religion i always wonder is it really a mistake or is there something wrong with the religion? I mean just because it reads in the bible doesn't make it correct to me unless somebody can prove why its correct. The idea that i would live my life guided by rules that don't seem to have rational basis in the world I live in and don't represent the facts we know about this world is just something i can't accept.

Tuto
Dec 27th 2008, 03:13 PM
Contraception is all good and well but that won't protect you from such wondrous things like AIDS and herpes.

And, for every cure we find, two more strands of virus or bacteria pop up that we are completely powerless against. Are you willing to stake your life against "at some point ... probably?" Because I'm not. :)

I am glad to inform you that condoms do protect you from AIDS, but condoms do have a few percent change of not working which is the same for all sexually transmitted diseases. I think picking your partner carefully reduces the chance of getting a disease to almost zero.

tango
Dec 27th 2008, 03:20 PM
A child is a child. Their mind isn't developed enough to understand the dangers in their actions. But as full grown adults we can see the consequences of our actions, we can examine the results using science and figure out what can be done and what can't be done. For example i have never seen any scientific study which concludes that there is something wrong with homosexuality. If we as humans aren't allowed to use our abilities to explore the world around us and use this information to guide us then I think we would have died of extinction long ago.

Exactly, their mind isn't developed enough to understand the dangers. But they think they know, and they think they know that the big knife is safe to play with.

Now you are here saying you think you know that certain things are safe and insisting that your own belief is enough to confirm that things are safe. In effect you are using the same argument as the 5-year-old wanting to play with the big knife.

Scientific study can only tell us so much, under the known laws of physics the bumblebee is incapable of flight. Scientists also told us that Thalidomide was safe as a cure for morning sickness.

The argument about using our abilities to explore the world doesn't really tie in with your concern about homosexuality. To use an example of how that breaks down, if I want to poke myself in the eye with a sharp stick should I argue that to deny me such freedom is tantamount to telling me I shouldn't be using my abilities to explore the world? Of course not. We know some things are dangerous, we think some things are probably dangerous, and no doubt there are things we think are safe but which in fact are dangerous.

dljc
Dec 27th 2008, 03:20 PM
Of course, everybody makes mistakes. The most important thing to do is learn from them. When talking about mistakes according to religion i always wonder is it really a mistake or is there something wrong with the religion? I mean just because it reads in the bible doesn't make it correct to me unless somebody can prove why its correct. The idea that i would live my life guided by rules that don't seem to have rational basis in the world I live in and don't represent the facts we know about this world is just something i can't accept.Tuto,

I hope my question didn't put you on the defensive, it wasn't meant to. I only asked because Tango compared this to a small 5 year old child and you responded the way you did.

Having said that, let me ask you if you would agree with this or these comments as good sound advice.

1. Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. (Considered the Golden Rule).

2. Love your neighbor as you love yourself.

3. A wise man will hear, and will increase learning.

4. To every thing there is a season.

tango
Dec 27th 2008, 03:21 PM
I am glad to inform you that condoms do protect you from AIDS, but condoms do have a few percent change of not working which is the same for all sexually transmitted diseases. I think picking your partner carefully reduces the chance of getting a disease to almost zero.

Condoms do provide some protection against STDs. But abstinence and monogamy provide a much higher level of protection.

moonglow
Dec 27th 2008, 03:42 PM
These days we have contraceptions that are getting better and better. Probably soon we will have a way of contraception which is literally bulletproof when used correctly. At some point we will probably have a cure for all sexual diseases. At point where can you see the effect of this sexual sin?

We are already seeing the conquenses of these sexual sins as I pointed out before...thousands upon thousands of babies and children are dying from AIDS. Third world countries don't have protection..nor the money for the medication to treat this. So they die a slow, horrible death.

Here are some facts for you about HIV and AIDS being higher among gay men and bisexuals:

Disproportionately High Rates of STDs among Men who Have Sex with Men (MSM) (http://apha.confex.com/apha/135am/techprogram/paper_149201.htm)

STD Increases among Gay and Bisexual Men Reported at National Conference (http://www.cdc.gov/nchstp/dstd/Press_Releases/STDGay2000.htm)


CDC: Blacks, gays at high risk for HIV infections (http://www.cnn.com/2008/HEALTH/conditions/09/12/hiv.blacks.gays/index.html)


Vital Statistics

Worldwide:

* Over 22 million people have died from AIDS.
* Over 42 million people are living with HIV/AIDS, and 74 percent of these infected people live in sub-Saharan Africa.
* Over 19 million women are living with HIV/AIDS.
* By the year 2010, five countries (Ethiopia, Nigeria, China, India, and Russia) with 40 percent of the world's population will add 50 to 75 million infected people to the worldwide pool of HIV disease.
* Kevin Bacon There are 14,000 new infections every day (95 percent in developing countries). HIV/AIDS is a "disease of young people" with half of the 5 million new infections each year occurring among people ages 15 to 24.
* The UN estimates that, currently, there are 14 million AIDS orphans and that by 2010 there will be 25 million.

United States:

* An estimated one million people are currently living with HIV in the United States, with approximately 40,000 new infections occurring each year.
* 70 percent of these new infections occur in men and 30 percent occur in women.
* By race, 54 percent of the new infections in the United States occur among African Americans, and 64 percent of the new infections in women occur in African American women.
* 75 percent of the new infections in women are heterosexually transmitted.
* Half of all new infections in the United States occur in people 25 years of age or younger.

I guess its a little too late for the millions that have died from this already.

When people don't follow God's plan, this is what happens. :cry:

Tuto
Dec 27th 2008, 05:01 PM
Exactly, their mind isn't developed enough to understand the dangers. But they think they know, and they think they know that the big knife is safe to play with.

Now you are here saying you think you know that certain things are safe and insisting that your own belief is enough to confirm that things are safe. In effect you are using the same argument as the 5-year-old wanting to play with the big knife.

Scientific study can only tell us so much, under the known laws of physics the bumblebee is incapable of flight. Scientists also told us that Thalidomide was safe as a cure for morning sickness.

The argument about using our abilities to explore the world doesn't really tie in with your concern about homosexuality. To use an example of how that breaks down, if I want to poke myself in the eye with a sharp stick should I argue that to deny me such freedom is tantamount to telling me I shouldn't be using my abilities to explore the world? Of course not. We know some things are dangerous, we think some things are probably dangerous, and no doubt there are things we think are safe but which in fact are dangerous.

I don't think i am trying to say that because i believe in something then it has to be safe. What i am trying to say is that from the collective knowledge that humans have on this subject it has been shown to be safe, and on the other hand there hasn't been any proof that its not safe. I think in many ways you are down playing the achievements man has accomplished through science. If you look at history you can see how bad the living condition were and how good they are these days and its almost solely because of the increase in scientific knowledge. No offence but your example about sticking a sharp stick in your eye makes no sense. We all know what happens when you stick a sharp object through your eye. It can be tested and proven. Where is this proof about homosexuality?

Tuto
Dec 27th 2008, 05:06 PM
Condoms do provide some protection against STDs. But abstinence and monogamy provide a much higher level of protection.

Yeah but thats no fun :lol:

tango
Dec 27th 2008, 08:09 PM
I don't think i am trying to say that because i believe in something then it has to be safe. What i am trying to say is that from the collective knowledge that humans have on this subject it has been shown to be safe, and on the other hand there hasn't been any proof that its not safe. I think in many ways you are down playing the achievements man has accomplished through science. If you look at history you can see how bad the living condition were and how good they are these days and its almost solely because of the increase in scientific knowledge. No offence but your example about sticking a sharp stick in your eye makes no sense. We all know what happens when you stick a sharp object through your eye. It can be tested and proven. Where is this proof about homosexuality?

From the collective knowledge of humans it was concluded that Thalidomide was a great cure for morning sickness. We know better now, but it's a bit late for the victims.

Scientists still can't agree whether mobile phones are dangerous to our brains, scientific advice on what foods to eat changes almost by the week, and yet you want to trust your entire well being to your understanding of their understanding of the way things work?

Dani H
Dec 27th 2008, 10:11 PM
I am glad to inform you that condoms do protect you from AIDS, but condoms do have a few percent change of not working which is the same for all sexually transmitted diseases. I think picking your partner carefully reduces the chance of getting a disease to almost zero.

With everything we do, we take a calculated risk. Else we wouldn't get out of bed in the morning. Even those who abstain have ended up with diseases through other ways. Again, nobody lives in a vacuum, and none remain untouched by this thing called "sin." But I no longer wish to contribute to the mess (even unknowingly), and if possible help others with their burdens, and so I've chosen a different path.

The ultimate consequence of indulging in what God calls "sin," is death. That's neither up for discussion nor subject to change. We didn't put ourselves here, and have no authority to change eternal principles, and as such, we either accept the consequences and continue to live as we choose, or we pay attention to His laws and find another world opening up that actually makes sense and isn't based off of our own excuses and/or rationalizations. I can justify whatever behavior I want. The question remains whether my justifications are going to hold water before God. :)

Funny, though, I have a lot more freedom and fun than ever before now that I'm rid of my burden of sin and have God always by my side, helping me to make better choices and pay attention to what goes on around me. I also find myself having to justify my behavior a lot less now that I've turned my back on much wrongdoing and have embraced a path of obedience and righteousness. Long ago, much like you, I used to think "no way am I going to let God tell me what to do." I didn't understand God, never met Him, all I had was hearsay and personal suspicions and just a totally uninformed and distorted opinion of who He actually is and what He is like. Now that I've actually met Him ... wow. Yea, He can tell me what to do. Any day, any time, about anything. Because He's ... awesome. :)

moonglow
Dec 27th 2008, 11:12 PM
Originally Posted by Tuto
I don't think i am trying to say that because i believe in something then it has to be safe. What i am trying to say is that from the collective knowledge that humans have on this subject it has been shown to be safe, and on the other hand there hasn't been any proof that its not safe. I think in many ways you are down playing the achievements man has accomplished through science. If you look at history you can see how bad the living condition were and how good they are these days and its almost solely because of the increase in scientific knowledge. No offence but your example about sticking a sharp stick in your eye makes no sense. We all know what happens when you stick a sharp object through your eye. It can be tested and proven. Where is this proof about homosexuality?

Originally Posted by Tuto
I am glad to inform you that condoms do protect you from AIDS, but condoms do have a few percent change of not working which is the same for all sexually transmitted diseases. I think picking your partner carefully reduces the chance of getting a disease to almost zero.

I keep showing you the facts to your questions here or proof you are wrong about condoms protecting so many...I mean really...in 07 Over 22 million people have died from AIDS...doesn't sound like very many people are getting this great protection you keep talking about. As far as proof STD are higher among gays...I posted links for those too...here is my post again below. I notice you don't address any of these scientific facts either...yet you feel you can trust science with your life...yet ignore it when its not to your liking or what?



We are already seeing the conquenses of these sexual sins as I pointed out before...thousands upon thousands of babies and children are dying from AIDS. Third world countries don't have protection..nor the money for the medication to treat this. So they die a slow, horrible death.

Here are some facts for you about HIV and AIDS being higher among gay men and bisexuals:

Disproportionately High Rates of STDs among Men who Have Sex with Men (MSM) (http://apha.confex.com/apha/135am/techprogram/paper_149201.htm)

STD Increases among Gay and Bisexual Men Reported at National Conference (http://www.cdc.gov/nchstp/dstd/Press_Releases/STDGay2000.htm)


CDC: Blacks, gays at high risk for HIV infections (http://www.cnn.com/2008/HEALTH/conditions/09/12/hiv.blacks.gays/index.html)


Vital Statistics

Worldwide:

* Over 22 million people have died from AIDS.
* Over 42 million people are living with HIV/AIDS, and 74 percent of these infected people live in sub-Saharan Africa.
* Over 19 million women are living with HIV/AIDS.
* By the year 2010, five countries (Ethiopia, Nigeria, China, India, and Russia) with 40 percent of the world's population will add 50 to 75 million infected people to the worldwide pool of HIV disease.
* Kevin Bacon There are 14,000 new infections every day (95 percent in developing countries). HIV/AIDS is a "disease of young people" with half of the 5 million new infections each year occurring among people ages 15 to 24.
* The UN estimates that, currently, there are 14 million AIDS orphans and that by 2010 there will be 25 million.

United States:

* An estimated one million people are currently living with HIV in the United States, with approximately 40,000 new infections occurring each year.
* 70 percent of these new infections occur in men and 30 percent occur in women.
* By race, 54 percent of the new infections in the United States occur among African Americans, and 64 percent of the new infections in women occur in African American women.
* 75 percent of the new infections in women are heterosexually transmitted.
* Half of all new infections in the United States occur in people 25 years of age or younger.

I guess its a little too late for the millions that have died from this already.

When people don't follow God's plan, this is what happens. :cry:

Yes science (starting in the bible in fact) has given us the knowledge to fight certain diseases...but the other fact is, people have a responsibility to do the right thing to protect themselves and not be so dependant on science for the medication to fix them. Not everything can be fixed. Its no different then being told to wash our hands often in the winter time as that is how most illnesses are spread. Now the CDC is depending on us to wash our hands! Cause if we don't do the responsible thing more people will get sick. Same thing here...on the CDC site they had a statement saying that condoms do NOT protect nearly as much as people are told they do...that statement was taken down quite suddenly but the news got ahold of it. People are depending on a thin piece of rubber to protect their very lives! I personally think that is quite insane...to put my life in something that could break so easily...why risk it?

God isn't trying to be a kill joy...He made these rules to follow to protect us. Because we did it 'our way' little babies are dying from AIDS...now how that doesn't bother you or others is beyond me.

Tuto
Dec 29th 2008, 07:53 PM
I keep showing you the facts to your questions here or proof you are wrong about condoms protecting so many...I mean really...in 07 Over 22 million people have died from AIDS...doesn't sound like very many people are getting this great protection you keep talking about. As far as proof STD are higher among gays...I posted links for those too...here is my post again below. I notice you don't address any of these scientific facts either...yet you feel you can trust science with your life...yet ignore it when its not to your liking or what?




Yes science (starting in the bible in fact) has given us the knowledge to fight certain diseases...but the other fact is, people have a responsibility to do the right thing to protect themselves and not be so dependant on science for the medication to fix them. Not everything can be fixed. Its no different then being told to wash our hands often in the winter time as that is how most illnesses are spread. Now the CDC is depending on us to wash our hands! Cause if we don't do the responsible thing more people will get sick. Same thing here...on the CDC site they had a statement saying that condoms do NOT protect nearly as much as people are told they do...that statement was taken down quite suddenly but the news got ahold of it. People are depending on a thin piece of rubber to protect their very lives! I personally think that is quite insane...to put my life in something that could break so easily...why risk it?

God isn't trying to be a kill joy...He made these rules to follow to protect us. Because we did it 'our way' little babies are dying from AIDS...now how that doesn't bother you or others is beyond me.

Sorry again for taking such a long time to respond to your posts. I have two weeks time before my 900 page test and the reading hasn't being going as planned, so i am bit stressed out :D. I hope nobody has found it disrespectful.

I once watched a documentary about homosexual men and the bigger danger of getting aids than heterosexual men. It was said that this was caused by the sexual practice, the number of partners homosexual men have and because homosexual men wear condoms less often than heterosexual men. Also i do know about the aids problem in Africa and Asia, but i have to say that in those countries it has more to do with heterosexual's not wearing condom.

But the thing is i see nothing divine about these facts. Sure homosexual men have a greater risk of getting aids but that can be explained by the things i already mentioned. As already said that in Asia and Africa the AIDS problem is the worst and it has nothing to do with homosexuality and more to do with people not using condoms.
If we were to say that this is all some divine punishment then why doesn't it seem to affect lesbians?

Tuto
Dec 29th 2008, 08:02 PM
From the collective knowledge of humans it was concluded that Thalidomide was a great cure for morning sickness. We know better now, but it's a bit late for the victims.

Scientists still can't agree whether mobile phones are dangerous to our brains, scientific advice on what foods to eat changes almost by the week, and yet you want to trust your entire well being to your understanding of their understanding of the way things work?

Science does make mistakes, but have you ever wondered were we would be with out it? Life expectancy in the last hundred years had doubled. The methods get better every year so that mistakes like the one you mentioned will happen less often.

I personally trust science because i can understand the principles its based on. I know about cells, the basic human anatomy etc. so i know where they are coming from.

Mobile phones have been around for about 15 years. The problem with knowing if they are harmful is difficult because if they are, the effect takes many years to show it self, so naturally it has been to conduct tests on the subject.