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Samsheep2
Dec 14th 2008, 07:08 PM
Romans 8:29-30 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

My purpose in starting this new thread happens to be for a couple of reasons:
1.Since new here I'm not aware if there has been one similar to this.
2.Because of the need for rightly dividing the word of truth.
3.Because God cannot lie - as a matter of fact it is impossible for God to lie.

The Confusion about all this stems from two theological positions and even though some may not be versed in all their content one teaches you can be saved and later 'if' then you can lose it. The other side believes that true bible salvation is eternal because given by an eternal God it can never end.
As you may or may not know, for years people have debated whether a believer can lose his or her salvation. Perhaps more than any other single doctrine, eternal security has been a dividing issue in the church age. That's sad because the Bible is so clear on the matter.
It's surprising to me that so many would deny the straightforward presentation of the doctrine of security in Romans 8. And yes there are other texts which discuss the security of the believer, but none are as pointed as this. Verses 28-30 are among the clearest passages on eternal security: everyone who has been redeemed by Jesus Christ--without exception--will be glorified. That is according to these two verses. All believers have the assurance that everything works together for their good, so nothing can work against them that could make them lose their salvation. Those who are justified will indeed be glorified.

Now, we start with this: Do you understand what the bible means when it says "WHOM He foreknew, THEM He also GLORIFIED"?

Thanks and I look forward to a good spirited discussion in this all important matter.

Sam,

Yukerboy
Dec 14th 2008, 07:46 PM
I think the key here is what is at the end of the topic heading.

The true believer has eternal security.

However, not all who believe they are saved are saved and therefore are not true believers.

The true believer will persevere to the end and overcome, which is where works comes in. Works is a direct result of faith.

Butch5
Dec 15th 2008, 12:01 AM
Romans 8:29-30 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
My purpose in starting this new thread happens to be for a couple of reasons:
1.Since new here I'm not aware if there has been one similar to this.
2.Because of the need for rightly dividing the word of truth.
3.Because God cannot lie - as a matter of fact it is impossible for God to lie.
The Confusion about all this stems from two theological positions and even though some may not be versed in all their content one teaches you can be saved and later 'if' then you can lose it. The other side believes that true bible salvation is eternal because given by an eternal God it can never end.
As you may or may not know, for years people have debated whether a believer can lose his or her salvation. Perhaps more than any other single doctrine, eternal security has been a dividing issue in the church age. That's sad because the Bible is so clear on the matter.
It's surprising to me that so many would deny the straightforward presentation of the doctrine of security in Romans 8. And yes there are other texts which discuss the security of the believer, but none are as pointed as this. Verses 28-30 are among the clearest passages on eternal security: everyone who has been redeemed by Jesus Christ--without exception--will be glorified. That is according to these two verses. All believers have the assurance that everything works together for their good, so nothing can work against them that could make them lose their salvation. Those who are justified will indeed be glorified.
Now, we start with this: Do you understand what the bible means when it says "WHOM He foreknew, THEM He also GLORIFIED"?
Thanks and I look forward to a good spirited discussion in this all important matter.
Sam,

Sam,
We've been down this road so many times. Your doctrines are false. Romans 8:29-30 are not talking about salvation. Notice all of the verbs are past tense. This is a completed act of God, including the glorification.
Who were they that God foreknew? There is no reference anywhere in the passage to a time before the foundation of the world. Those God foreknew are in relation to what Paul is speaking about. Paul is encouraging the saints at Rome because they are being persecuted. He tells the not to worry because God works all things together for good to them who love Him. How does Paul prove this to the saints at Rome? He makes his next statement which is verses 29-30,

Romans 8:29-30 ( KJV ) 29For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

So, who did God foreknow? the Greek word means, to know before. So, it reads those who God knew before. Before what? Before the time when Paul is writing this letter to the those at Rome. Paul is saying, hey don't worry those that God knew before, back in the day. Who were they? they were people like Abraham, Issac, David, Joseph, etc. Paul is saying that God had determined that they would be conformed to the image of His Son. He had determined that they would be called, justified, and glorified. All already done, that is why the verbs are all past tense. God has done all of these things for those of old. So he can say to those at Rome don't worry about the persecution, God will take care of you, see what He has done for those He knew before, those of old, David, Abraham, Jacob, etc.
Now, that being said, let's move on to the eternal security issue. Let's start off by acknowledging that the issue is not with God. It is not whether or not God can keep us, we all agree that God can Keep us. The issue is whether or not a believer can turn away from God. Now, rather than posting verses that show that a believer will be kept, which is not in doubt, please address the the Scriptures that I post and show me how I have misinterpreted them.

Hebrews 3:1 ( KJV ) 1Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;
The writer of Hebrews makes it clear He is speaking of believers, He goes on to say,

Hebrews 3:7-12 ( KJV ) 7Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice, 8Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness: 9When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years. 10Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways. 11So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.) 12Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.

Consider this,

Hebrews 10:25-29 ( KJV ) 25Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching. 26For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, 27But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. 28He that despised Moses’ law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: 29Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

The writer clearly says this person was sanctified, yet counted the blood an unholy thing and suffered worse punishment than those under the law.
Consider,

Hebrews 10:38-39 ( KJV ) 38Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him. 39But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.
The writer here clearly says a man can draw back.
Consider also,

Mark 9:42-48 ( KJV ) 42And whosoever shall offend one of these little ones that believe in me, it is better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were cast into the sea. 43And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: 44Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. 45And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: 46Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. 47And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire: 48Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

OK, Jesus said this to His disciples, to John, Peter, Matthew, etc. these are the elect. Jesus warns them to make sure they do not end up in hell. Why would Jesus tell them this if the elect cannot wind up in hell?

Again, please deal with these Scriptures, please don't post a bunch of Scriptures showing that believers will be kept, no one doubts that those who continue in belief will be saved. The issue is whether or not they can turn away.

tt1106
Dec 15th 2008, 01:52 AM
“I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. 2 He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful. 3 You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you. 4 Remain in me, and I will remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me” (John 15:1-4). [1] (http://www.bereanpublishers.com/Salvation_Issues/remain_in_jesus.htm#_ftn1)

Jesus words not Pauls.


The branches are part of the plant, but they have no roots. They are in the plant, just enough to survive, but they don't draw enough of the life sustaining spirit to actually produce fruit. If they are not pruned off, they will just continue to leech off enough nourishment to make the rest of the branches suffer.

4HeavensSake
Dec 15th 2008, 02:47 AM
Joh 6:47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.

"Believeth" not "once Believed"

Yukerboy
Dec 15th 2008, 03:19 AM
Believeth" not "once Believed"

True, and as John shows...

They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

Those who once believed may not persevere to the end. However, if they do not, they were never one of us, even when they believed.

Butch5
Dec 15th 2008, 04:51 AM
True, and as John shows...

They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

Those who once believed may not persevere to the end. However, if they do not, they were never one of us, even when they believed.

1 John is speaking of false teachers not Christians.

Butch5
Dec 15th 2008, 04:52 AM
Joh 6:47Verily,verily,I sayunto you,He that believethonmehatheverlastinglife.

"Believeth" not "once Believed"


I notice you did not answer the questions.

Would you mind putting that verse in context?

Samsheep2
Dec 15th 2008, 12:02 PM
I think the key here is what is at the end of the topic heading.

The true believer has eternal security.

However, not all who believe they are saved are saved and therefore are not true believers.

The true believer will persevere to the end and overcome, which is where works comes in. Works is a direct result of faith.

Agreed and thanks,

Vhayes
Dec 15th 2008, 12:26 PM
Salvation is a gift.

Romans 11
29 - for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.
V

Samsheep2
Dec 15th 2008, 12:35 PM
Sam, We've been down this road so many times. Your doctrines are false.Why Butch, how nice of you to declare first that my doctrines are wrong? I am glad I am not now on the same road you are.

Romans 8:29-30 are not talking about salvation. Notice all of the verbs are past tense. This is a completed act of God, including the glorification. Butch, if salvation is not included within those two v's then my friend I really wonder about you???

Who were they that God foreknew? There is no reference anywhere in the passage to a time before the foundation of the world. Those God foreknew are in relation to what Paul is speaking about. Paul is encouraging the saints at Rome because they are being persecuted. He tells the not to worry because God works all things together for good to them who love Him. How does Paul prove this to the saints at Rome? He makes his next statement which is verses 29-30, Butch, the Apostle Paul just happens to be talking about the 'chosen ones' - the 'elect' of God, the 'saved' ones - chapter 8 is a continuation of what was discussed in the previous chapter. The main thrust was to show how the gospel effected what the law was incapable of ever being able to do. From the first verse Salvation is seen in the fact that the gospel of Jesus Christ delivers saved ones from condemnation (V1-13).
It produces a spirit of adoption along with the confidence we have as a child of God to address Him as our Father which art in heaven (V14-17).
It sustains the new man amidst all the trials of life by the promise of a final salvation Body, Soul and spirit (V18-25).
It assures us of Him who will aid us in all our trials (V26-27).
It gives us the assurance that all things shall work together for good, since all things are connected with the purpose of God; and all that can happen to a true believer comes in as a part of the plan and purpose of him who has chosen to save us (V28-30).
It ministers consolation from the fact that everything that can ever affect mankind is on the side of the true believer, and will work in his favour.
...to be continued)

Samsheep2
Dec 15th 2008, 12:58 PM
Romans 8:29-30 ( KJV ) 29For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

So, who did God foreknow? the Greek word means, to know before. So, it reads those who God knew before. Before what? Before the time when Paul is writing this letter to the those at Rome. Paul is saying, hey don't worry those that God knew before, back in the day. Who were they? they were people like Abraham, Issac, David, Joseph, etc. Paul is saying that God had determined that they would be conformed to the image of His Son. He had determined that they would be called, justified, and glorified. All already done, that is why the verbs are all past tense. God has done all of these things for those of old. So he can say to those at Rome don't worry about the persecution, God will take care of you, see what He has done for those He knew before, those of old, David, Abraham, Jacob, etc.Butch, since I doubt very seriously you see your own contradictions I doubt there would be a need for me to point them out. But I will say this - Paul wrote to seven churches and he makes a statement in one of those letters that tells me you don't understand how to rightly divide the word of truth:

1 Corinthians 4:17 For this cause have I sent unto you Timotheus, who is my beloved son, and faithful in the Lord, who shall bring you into remembrance of my ways which be in Christ, as I teach every where in every church.

Butch, past tense with God means much more than you appear to understand - therefore we ask that you explain away this by our brother John Gill:

For whom he did foreknow,… The foreknowledge of God here, does not intend his prescience of all things future; by which he foreknows and foretells things to come, and which distinguishes him from all other gods; and is so called, not with respect to himself, with whom all things are present, but with respect to us, and which is eternal, universal, certain, and infallible; for in this sense he foreknows all men, and if this was the meaning here, then all men would be predestinated, conformed to the image of Christ, called by grace, justified and glorified; whereas they are a special people, whom God has foreknown: nor is this foreknowledge to be understood of any provision or foresight of the good works, holiness, faith, and perseverance of men therein, upon which God predestinates them to happiness; since this would make something out of God, and not his good pleasure, the cause of predestination; which was done before, and without any consideration of good or evil, and is entirely owing to the free grace of God, and is the ground and foundation of good works, faith, holiness, and perseverance in them: but this regards the everlasting love of God to his own people, his delight in them, and approbation of them; in this sense he knew them, he foreknew them from everlasting, affectionately loved them, and took infinite delight and pleasure in them; and this is the foundation of their predestination and election, of their conformity to Christ, of their calling, justification, and glorification: for these

...he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son; having perfect, distinct, special knowledge of them, joined with love to them, he predetermined, or fore-appointed them in his eternal mind, in his everlasting and unchangeable purposes and decrees to this end, conformity to the image of Christ; which is not to be understood of the Spirit of Christ: God's elect indeed are chosen to be holy, and through sanctification of the Spirit, but are never said to be conformed, made like to the Spirit, nor is the Spirit ever called the image of Christ; but this designs either likeness to Christ as the Son of God, or conformity to him in his human nature. There is indeed a great disparity between the sonship of Christ, and of the saints; he is the eternal and natural Son of God, he is the one and only begotten Son, they are adopted ones, yet in some things there is a likeness; as he is the Son of God, so are they the sons of God, though not in the same sense; as he is a beloved Son, so are they; as he is the firstborn with respect them, they are the firstborn with respect to angels; as he has an inheritance, so have they; moreover, he has a very great concern in their sonship; the predestination of them to it is by him; the blessing itself is founded on union to him, on their conjugal relation to him, and his assumption of their nature; it comes to them through his redemption, and is actually bestowed on them by him; and this conformity to Christ as sons, will mere fully appear hereafter, when they shall be like him, and see him as he is: or this may be understood of the saints' conformity to Christ in his human nature, both here and hereafter: here in holiness; the image of God was in in his first creation, this is defaced by sin; and in regeneration, the image of Christ is stamped, his grace is wrought in them, his Spirit is put into them, to enable them to walk in him, and after him: this will be complete hereafter, and will consist in perfect holiness, being freed from the very being, as well as the power and guilt of sin; in perfect knowledge of everything that will tend to their happiness; and in glory like to Christ, both in soul and body:

...that he might be the firstborn among many brethren; the persons among whom Christ is the firstborn are described by their relation, "brethren"; to one another, being related to the same Father, regenerated by the same grace, taken into the same family, and heirs of the same glory; and to Christ, which relation, as brethren to him, is not merely founded on his incarnation, but in their adoption; and which is evidenced by their regeneration, and doing the will of his Father; an which relation he owns, and is not ashamed of: they are also described by their number, "many"; for though they are but few, when compared with the world; yet they are many, a large number, considered by themselves; and among these, Christ is the "firstborn"; he is the firstborn of God, the begotten of the Father, he is the first begotten, and as such he is the only begotten; he is the firstborn of Mary, she had none before him, and he is the only one that ever was born in the manner he was; he is the first begotten from the dead, his resurrection is called a begetting, and he was the first in time that rose from the dead by his own power, and to an immortal life, and the first in causality and dignity. Christ is the firstborn with respect to all creatures in general; he was begotten of the Father before all creatures were; he is the first cause of them all, the governor, basis, and support of them: and he is the firstborn with respect to the saints; who are of the same nature with him, are made partakers of the divine nature, are sons in the same family, though not in the same class of sonship: moreover, this character may regard not so much birth as privilege which belongs to Christ as Mediator; who, as the firstborn had, has the blessing, the government, the priesthood, and the inheritance; all which is owing to, and is one end of divine predestination.

...more to come)

Samsheep2
Dec 15th 2008, 01:04 PM
Now, that being said, let's move on to the eternal security issue. Let's start off by acknowledging that the issue is not with God. It is not whether or not God can keep us, we all agree that God can Keep us. The issue is whether or not a believer can turn away from God. Now, rather than posting verses that show that a believer will be kept, which is not in doubt,

Butch, I am enjoying our debate and assure you we will be back and take back up with the above. Before I leave to go to the Doctor let me say this:

This is just some thing for you to think on until I return - you are saying one thing above and then denying it? How can you say you believe GOD CAN KEEP US and then say it is all up to man? Butch, if it's all up to man why do we need GOD TO KEEP US?

Thanks, Sam

Yukerboy
Dec 15th 2008, 02:21 PM
1 John is speaking of false teachers not Christians.

Obviously.

If they were "christians" they would remain with us. If they do not remain with us, they never belonged to us. They never had salvation.

ProjectPeter
Dec 15th 2008, 03:08 PM
Might I remind folks that there is a thing about folks debating nicely in the rules. Hollering about folks being "false" this and that... a sure fired way to see a thread get closed very quickly. So if you are going to continue that way then I see this thread getting hammered shut in the next day or two if it goes that long.

Just a reminder.

Partaker of Christ
Dec 15th 2008, 03:11 PM
Assurance:
It is quiet sad, that many seem to view what Christ has done for, and in a true believer as something that might happen. It is a kind of Insurance policy for them.

'Insurance' is a cover in case something might or might not happen. I insure my home against the possibility, that it might catch fire, or be hit by a storm, or burgled. Insurance might not have to pay out.

'Assurance' is cover against something that (not might) but will happen. Assurance will always pay out.

The Parson
Dec 15th 2008, 03:40 PM
Here's the deal. This thread WILL remain PEACEFUL and WILL be a reasoning sesson. It WILL NOT BE a verbal boxing match or it WILL be closed. Is that understood, my dear brothers and sisters?

Samsheep2
Dec 15th 2008, 03:54 PM
Now, rather than posting verses that show that a believer will be kept, which is not in doubt, please address the the Scriptures that I post and show me how I have misinterpreted them. Butch, before we do as you request I need for you to clarify some thing you said above:
If I understand your verbiage you are stating that a believer "WILL BE KEPT" therefore no need in posting those scriptures which to you is without any doubt? Then you wish to build a case by quoting particular passages that too you say a once saved one can walk away from salvation, be lost and die and go to a devils hell?
OK, I'll look at them and be more than happy to discuss them within context.

]quote]Hebrews 3:1 ( KJV ) 1Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus; The writer of Hebrews makes it clear He is speaking of believers, He goes on to say, Hebrews 3:7-12 ( KJV ) 7Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice, 8Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness: 9When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years. 10Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways. 11So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.) 12Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. [/quote]

Butch, you start with V1, then jump all the way to V7-12, and imply that the passage is teaching one can lose salvation? - or at least I gather that - All right let's look at the contextual setting:

He says in the previous verse: Hebrews 3:6 But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.

...whose house are we; Butch, this speaks only to true believers in Christ, whether Jews or Gentiles; who, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, in whom Christ dwells by faith, and over whom he presides and reigns: This has nothing at all to do with losing salvation but is a description between those who 'profess' and those who 'profess' - notice as he explains this further.

...if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end. These words are not to be understood as a condition of the former assertion; nor is a final falling away from grace to be inferred from hence, for the supposition proves not such an inference, but the contrary; namely, that they that have true faith, hope, and confidence, shall keep them to the end; and therefore are the house of Christ: besides, the doctrine of apostasy is quite repugnant to the apostle's argument; according to which, Christ might have no house, and can have none till men have persevered: but the apostle's design is to give a word of exhortation to himself and others, to hold fast the confidence; and so the words are rather descriptive of the persons, who are the house of Christ; such who have a good hope, through grace, wrought in them, and can rejoice in hope of the glory of God; and can use freedom of speech and boldness at the throne of grace; and have an holy confidence of interest in the love of God, and salvation by Christ, and go on in the exercise of these graces to the end of their days. Now, when one comes to V7-8, one ought to be able to see a difference:

Hebrews 3:7-8 Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, [Psalms 95:7) To day if ye will hear his voice, Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness: Butch, the warning is ...Harden not you hearts,… There is a natural hardness of the heart; the heart of man is like a stone, destitute of spiritual life, motion, and activity; it is senseless, stupid, impenitent, stubborn, and inflexible, on which no impressions can be made, but by powerful grace: and there is an acquired, habitual, and voluntary hardness of heart, to which men arrive by various steps; as entertaining pleasing thoughts of sin; an actual commission of it, with frequency, till it becomes customary, and so habitual; an extenuation or justification of it, and so they become hardened against all reproofs and sermons, and to all afflictions and judgments; are insensible and past feeling, and openly declare for sin, and glory in it: and there is a hardness which God's people are liable to, and should guard against; and which is brought on by a neglect of private and public worship, and by keeping bad company, and through the ill examples of others, and by giving way to lesser sins; for all sin is of an hardening nature:

...as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness; the Jews provoked God in the wilderness by their unbelief, murmurings, ingratitude, and idolatry; and they tempted him there by distrusting his power and goodness; hence one of the places in which they murmured against him was called Massah and Meribah, Ex 17:7 and it is an aggravation of their sin, that it was in the wilderness, after they had been just brought out of bondage into liberty, and had lately had such an instance of the power and goodness of God, in bringing them through the Red sea; and where they could have no human supplies, and therefore should have been entirely dependent on God, and trust in him. But what happen, did or is this talking about one losing salvation? Since you emphasize in blue the "DEPARTING FROM THE LIVING GOD" I will skip to that and say:

...Take heed, brethren,… This exhortation is grounded upon the state and case of their ancestors before given, as a warning and caution to the then present Hebrews; and whom the apostle styles "brethren", to show that he had no hard thoughts of them, and that his jealousy was a godly one, and not an evil suspicion; and may teach us that all exhortations, admonitions, and reproofs should be given in love: ...lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief; or such an evil heart, in which unbelief prevails, and is predominant: there is in every man, whether a profane sinner, or an hypocritical professor, an evil heart, and an unbelieving one; and there is unbelief in regenerate persons at times, which when cherished and encouraged by them is a great evil, and should be avoided; and this sin is aggravated by the many instances of God's grace, and by the many declarations of it, and by the exceeding great and precious promises God has made, and by the great discoveries of his love to their souls in times past: and this sin, when it gets ahead, has a very great influence on the heart, to make it evil; and unbelief was the first sin of man, at least it very early appeared; it is the mother sin, and puts persons upon every sin; it defiles the conscience, hardens the heart, renders the word unprofitable, unfit for duty and makes men unstable, and therefore to be shunned; and especially because of the dreadful effect following:

...in departing from the living God; that is, from Christ, who is the Son over his own house, and whose voice is to be heard; for of no other is the apostle speaking in the context; and who is not only the Son of the living God, but he is himself the living God; he is life in himself, and is the fountain and author of life, natural, spiritual, and eternal. This is mentioned to exalt the person of Christ, the apostle and high priest of our profession; and to discover the greatness and heinousness of the sin of such as depart from him and his Gospel, and to deter men from it: there is a final and total departure from Christ, from his Gospel and ordinances, from his people, and from a former profession of faith, which is never to be found in true believers; for they are as Mount Zion, which can never be removed; but there is a partial departure, and for a while, which they are liable to, and is attended with bad effects to them, and should be guarded against: saints should take heed of themselves, and of their hearts, and of the unbelief of them, that they do not in the least depart from Christ, by letting go their hold of him, or by a non-exercise of faith upon him; and this should be the care and concern of every individual member of the church, and at all times; unbelief is very dishonourable to God and Christ; contradicts the word and promises of God; is uncomfortable to the saints; it is a sin that very easily besets, and is very provoking to God, and is highly resented by him. But never ever insinuates that a person once saved can depart from salvation but from the "REST" or that fellowship that we have at birth. Can we leave our first love, yes!!! But since He will never leave us nor forsake us and since he which hath begun a good work in us will perform/continue it until the day of Jesus Christ.
Butch what more can be said?
Thanks, Sam

Samsheep2
Dec 15th 2008, 04:08 PM
Sam, Consider this, Hebrews 10:25-29 ( KJV ) 25Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching. 26For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, 27But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. 28He that despised Moses’ law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: 29Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? The writer clearly says this person was sanctified, yet counted the blood an unholy thing and suffered worse punishment than those under the law. Butch, since you wrest the scriptures to your own destruction we will never get done, I have answered the first portion of your argument and it holds true with the rest - but I will answer just this part and move on to the other posts and see how you respond.


Consider,Hebrews 10:38-39 ( KJV ) 38Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him. 39But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul. The writer here clearly says a man can draw back. Butch, your eagerness to show me false appears to blind your eyes from the word of God when rightly divided. The writer is giving a contrast between the ones saved and the ones who profess to be saved - if you would take the time to pay attention you ought to be able to see the two types in the above v's??? Now, "DRAW BACK" from what? Butch, V39, says BOLDLY: "BUT WE ARE NOT OF THEM WHO DRAW BACK UNTO PERDITION; BUT OF THEM THAT BELIEVE TO THE SAVING OF THE SOUL". Oh Butch, do you understand the difference? Over these past 40 years I can speak of some that profess to know Him and even cast out demons in His name but have been back out in (perdition living like hell for twice as many years as they claim to have been in???
These are the ones Paul speaks of in V38.


Again, please deal with these Scriptures, please don't post a bunch of Scriptures showing that believers will be kept, no one doubts that those who continue in belief will be saved. The issue is whether or not they can turn away. Butch, why do you contradict yourself, you are confusing the issue by the above statement???

Thanks, Sam

Samsheep2
Dec 15th 2008, 04:13 PM
Joh 6:47Verily,verily,I sayunto you,He that believethonmehatheverlastinglife.

"Believeth" not "once Believed"


Goodness, how did you come up with this revelation? Are you not aware that 'believeth' & 'once believed' mean the same but I wonder if you even understand this passage:
Jude 1:5 I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.

Thanks, Sam

Samsheep2
Dec 15th 2008, 04:16 PM
True, and as John shows...

They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

Those who once believed may not persevere to the end. However, if they do not, they were never one of us, even when they believed.

YB, I wonder what some of these would do with John 8 along about V31-50,

tt1106
Dec 15th 2008, 04:18 PM
Romans 8
9You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ. 10But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, yet your spirit is alive because of righteousness. 11And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit, who lives in you. 12Therefore, brothers, we have an obligation—but it is not to the sinful nature, to live according to it. 13For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live, 14because those who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God. 15For you did not receive a spirit that makes you a slave again to fear, but you received the Spirit of sonship.[g (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=8&version=31#fen-NIV-28117g)] And by him we cry, "Abba,[h (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=8&version=31#fen-NIV-28117h)] Father." 16The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children. 17Now if we are children, then we are heirs—heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory.

Samsheep2
Dec 15th 2008, 04:22 PM
Might I remind folks that there is a thing about folks debating nicely in the rules. Hollering about folks being "false" this and that... a sure fired way to see a thread get closed very quickly. So if you are going to continue that way then I see this thread getting hammered shut in the next day or two if it goes that long.

Just a reminder.
Hi Pete, and thanks for the warning and would it not be better to punish the 'holler' rather than shut down a debare where others are being nice.
By the way, if you ever see or think any words I express are in that tone please let me know for that is not my motive at all. I realize one person can get upset but I have not seen the others doing so.

Thanks and God bless,

ProjectPeter
Dec 15th 2008, 04:30 PM
Hi Pete, and thanks for the warning and would it not be better to punish the 'holler' rather than shut down a debare where others are being nice.
By the way, if you ever see or think any words I express are in that tone please let me know for that is not my motive at all. I realize one person can get upset but I have not seen the others doing so.

Thanks and God bless,
You might start a thread in chat to mod's and talk to one of the moderator's in this section. If you would like you could start a thread in chat to minister's and I'll explain, in detail, exactly what I am saying here. Then I am rather certain you'll understand why the thread is likely going to get closed down. ;)

Samsheep2
Dec 15th 2008, 04:36 PM
...taking this a step further may I say:

Romans 8 gives us all the clarification we need to boldly say we are forever secure in Christ because of God’s eternal purpose which He purposed before the world began. I realize there are many who do not see this and fight against it by using passages which they believe speaks of the ability to lose salvation. I was raised up in a church that taught this and after being saved 1/19/69 have for these past 40 years studied out thoroughly the DOCTRINE OF ETERNAL SECURITY – it is with that conviction I begin this thread and for no other reason.

Romans 8:28 says we are forever secure because that is God's purpose. Verses 29-30 explain God's purpose: "Whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the first-born among many brethren. Moreover, whom he did predestinate, them he also called; and whom he called, them he also justified; and whom he justified, them he also glorified."
Now folks, it just can’t get any plainer than that. As a matter of fact Jesus raised up the Apostle Paul for the Gentiles during the church age so he could reveal this hidden mystery.
It is God who causes all things to work together for the believer's good because that's the way He wants it. There's no other explanation. God is absolutely free to make whatever decisions He wants to, and nothing can change that. It matters not to Him whether you and I agree or disagree.
You're a Christian not because of something you decided, but because of something God decided. Paul said, "He hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him" (Eph. 1:4). God chose us and "predestinated us unto the adoption of sons by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will" (v. 5).

God predetermined to make us His sons and planned our salvation to lead to glorification. Our security does not depend on our ability to stay saved, but on God's ability to keep His promise (Heb. 6:17-18). God planned to redeem us. Therefore salvation is not based on what you decide, but on what God decides. John 1:12-13 says, "As many as received him [Christ], to them gave he power to become the children of God, even to them that believe on his name; who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God." We need to receive Christ, but it is God who originates the new birth.

Thanks, Sam

theBelovedDisciple
Dec 15th 2008, 06:03 PM
but it is God who originates the new birth.

__________________________________________________ ___________

This is correct.. for it is HIM who draws the unbeliever in... It is HIM who Converts..... and it is HIM who Empowers.......... Its done by the 'will' of God and not man..... Who does it ? God Himself.. and not done under the power or will of man......

And it is HIM.. or rather 'UNTO HIM..... that will keep you from falling and He is ABLE to present you faultless before HIM..and the presense of HIS GLORY.. with exceeding joy!

Those who are 'truly' HIS will know this and understand this..The Holy Ghost bearing witness with their own spirit...

This is about God 'keeping' His own.. and giving them Eternal Security.. they will 'know' it.. and they will 'know' their election... in who? in HIM!

One must ask oneself... the issue of Salavtion.. Who does that belong to?Maybe a person needs to go back and look at that.. Salvation and the issue of it belongs to God...Its Him who draws you in and converts you.. He STARTS it and He FINISHES it... period....

The problem I believe lies in the fact that many believe that they have come to God on their 'own' power or that they 'haven chosen' Him to start instead of vice versa.... and this maybe out of the 'will' of man?

He 'chooses' His own... and man's belief that He can come to God on/out of his/her own power and be converted without God initiating it will end up in disbelief, unbelief, condemnation, unwarranted fear, doubt, guilt... not really understanding who God is and His 'ability' and 'power' to 'keep' His own and lay that sound faith of Eternal Security in their heart/ spirit...

I believe one must go back and look at the issue of Salvation itself.. Who does that belong to?

I know today who it belongs to.. and its Him without a shadow of doubt...
It's all about HIM.. period..

Butch5
Dec 15th 2008, 06:23 PM
Samsheep2---Why Butch, how nice of you to declare first that my doctrines are wrong? I am glad I am not now on the same road you are.

I wish you were on the same road that I am, as I have been down the road that you are on.



Butch, if salvation is not included within those two v's then my friend I really wonder about you???

I did not say that salvation was not referenced, I said the verses are not speaking of salvation. Paul is not telling those at Rome how to be aved, he is giving them evidence that God does indeed work all things together for good.





Samsheep2---Butch, the Apostle Paul just happens to be talking about the 'chosen ones' - the 'elect' of God, the 'saved' ones - chapter 8 is a continuation of what was discussed in the previous chapter. The main thrust was to show how the gospel effected what the law was incapable of ever being able to do. From the first verse Salvation is seen in the fact that the gospel of Jesus Christ delivers saved ones from condemnation (V1-13).

It produces a spirit of adoption along with the confidence we have as a child of God to address Him as our Father which art in heaven (V14-17).
It sustains the new man amidst all the trials of life by the promise of a final salvation Body, Soul and spirit (V18-25).
It assures us of Him who will aid us in all our trials (V26-27).
It gives us the assurance that all things shall work together for good, since all things are connected with the purpose of God; and all that can happen to a true believer comes in as a part of the plan and purpose of him who has chosen to save us (V28-30).
It ministers consolation from the fact that everything that can ever affect mankind is on the side of the true believer, and will work in his favour.
...to be continued)


And the apostles is addressing the Jewish believers. However, this does not support your claim.

Butch5
Dec 15th 2008, 07:13 PM
Butch, since I doubt very seriously you see your own contradictions I doubt there would be a need for me to point them out. But I will say this - Paul wrote to seven churches and he makes a statement in one of those letters that tells me you don't understand how to rightly divide the word of truth:[/font]1 Corinthians 4:17
For this cause have I sent unto you Timotheus, who is my beloved son, and faithful in the Lord, who shall bring you into remembrance of my ways which be in Christ, as I teach every where in every church.Butch, past tense with God means much more than you appear to understand - therefore we ask that you explain away this by our brother John Gill:
For whom he did foreknow,… The foreknowledge of God here, does not intend his prescience of all things future; by which he foreknows and foretells things to come, and which distinguishes him from all other gods; and is so called, not with respect to himself, with whom all things are present, but with respect to us, and which is eternal, universal, certain, and infallible; for in this sense he foreknows all men, and if this was the meaning here, then all men would be predestinated, conformed to the image of Christ, called by grace, justified and glorified; whereas they are a special people, whom God has foreknown: nor is this foreknowledge to be understood of any provision or foresight of the good works, holiness, faith, and perseverance of men therein, upon which God predestinates them to happiness; since this would make something out of God, and not his good pleasure, the cause of predestination; which was done before, and without any consideration of good or evil, and is entirely owing to the free grace of God, and is the ground and foundation of good works, faith, holiness, and perseverance in them: but this regards the everlasting love of God to his own people, his delight in them, and approbation of them; in this sense he knew them, he foreknew them from everlasting, affectionately loved them, and took infinite delight and pleasure in them; and this is the foundation of their predestination and election, of their conformity to Christ, of their calling, justification, and glorification: for these
...he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son; having perfect, distinct, special knowledge of them, joined with love to them, he predetermined, or fore-appointed them in his eternal mind, in his everlasting and unchangeable purposes and decrees to this end, conformity to the image of Christ; which is not to be understood of the Spirit of Christ: God's elect indeed are chosen to be holy, and through sanctification of the Spirit, but are never said to be conformed, made like to the Spirit, nor is the Spirit ever called the image of Christ; but this designs either likeness to Christ as the Son of God, or conformity to him in his human nature. There is indeed a great disparity between the sonship of Christ, and of the saints; he is the eternal and natural Son of God, he is the one and only begotten Son, they are adopted ones, yet in some things there is a likeness; as he is the Son of God, so are they the sons of God, though not in the same sense; as he is a beloved Son, so are they; as he is the firstborn with respect them, they are the firstborn with respect to angels; as he has an inheritance, so have they; moreover, he has a very great concern in their sonship; the predestination of them to it is by him; the blessing itself is founded on union to him, on their conjugal relation to him, and his assumption of their nature; it comes to them through his redemption, and is actually bestowed on them by him; and this conformity to Christ as sons, will mere fully appear hereafter, when they shall be like him, and see him as he is: or this may be understood of the saints' conformity to Christ in his human nature, both here and hereafter: here in holiness; the image of God was in in his first creation, this is defaced by sin; and in regeneration, the image of Christ is stamped, his grace is wrought in them, his Spirit is put into them, to enable them to walk in him, and after him: this will be complete hereafter, and will consist in perfect holiness, being freed from the very being, as well as the power and guilt of sin; in perfect knowledge of everything that will tend to their happiness; and in glory like to Christ, both in soul and body:
...that he might be the firstborn among many brethren; the persons among whom Christ is the firstborn are described by their relation, "brethren"; to one another, being related to the same Father, regenerated by the same grace, taken into the same family, and heirs of the same glory; and to Christ, which relation, as brethren to him, is not merely founded on his incarnation, but in their adoption; and which is evidenced by their regeneration, and doing the will of his Father; an which relation he owns, and is not ashamed of: they are also described by their number, "many"; for though they are but few, when compared with the world; yet they are many, a large number, considered by themselves; and among these, Christ is the "firstborn"; he is the firstborn of God, the begotten of the Father, he is the first begotten, and as such he is the only begotten; he is the firstborn of Mary, she had none before him, and he is the only one that ever was born in the manner he was; he is the first begotten from the dead, his resurrection is called a begetting, and he was the first in time that rose from the dead by his own power, and to an immortal life, and the first in causality and dignity. Christ is the firstborn with respect to all creatures in general; he was begotten of the Father before all creatures were; he is the first cause of them all, the governor, basis, and support of them: and he is the firstborn with respect to the saints; who are of the same nature with him, are made partakers of the divine nature, are sons in the same family, though not in the same class of sonship: moreover, this character may regard not so much birth as privilege which belongs to Christ as Mediator; who, as the firstborn had, has the blessing, the government, the priesthood, and the inheritance; all which is owing to, and is one end of divine predestination.
...more to come)


Samsheep2---Butch, since I doubt very seriously you see your own contradictions I doubt there would be a need for me to point them out. But I will say this - Paul wrote to seven churches and he makes a statement in one of those letters that tells me you don't understand how to rightly divide the word of truth:

Please, point out my contradictions, if you are claiming that I have contradicted myself, please, point it out. Please also explain how it is that I cannot rightly divide the word.


Samsheep2---Butch, past tense with God means much more than you appear to understand - therefore we ask that you explain away this by our brother John Gill:

Does past tense mean something different to God than it does to us? If so how are we to understand the Scriptures? If it does, how did John Gill get understanding? Did he get direct revelation from God?
You see, I presented you with Scripture and you present me with John Gill . Please explain why I have to refute a Calvinistic theologian. I shouldn't but I wil.

First lets begin with foreknow,


Strong’s Hebrew and Greek Dictionaries

G4267 προγινώσκω proginōskō prog-in-oce'-ko From G4253 and G1097; to know beforehand, that is, foresee:—foreknow (ordain), know (before).

The word means to know before hand. Paul says those God did foreknow, those God knew before. The question then is, before what? John gill, incorrectly ties this to before the foundation of the world. Please show me "anywhere" in this passage where Paul makes reference to this foreknowldge being before the foundation of the world. He doesn't, that is John Gill interjecting his theology into the Scripture. Let's look at another place where Paul uses this word Proginosko.

Acts 26:4-5 ( KJV ) 4My manner of life from my youth, which was at the first among mine own nation at Jerusalem, know all the Jews; 5Which knew me from the beginning, if they would testify, that after the most straitest sect of our religion I lived a Pharisee.

Paul uses the same word here, and it is tranlated from the beginning, it is actuallly knew me before. So, here we have a Calvinistic translation, are we to believe that beginning, here, is the foundation of the world? Surly the Jews did not know Paul from the foundation of the world. Let's check some other translation to see how they traanslate it.

Acts 26:4-5 ( NKJV ) 4"My manner of life from my youth, which was spent from the beginning among my own nation at Jerusalem, all the Jews know. 5They knew me from the first, if they were willing to testify, that according to the strictest sect of our religion I lived a Pharisee.

Acts 26:4-5 ( YLT ) 4‘The manner of my life then, indeed, from youth—which from the beginning was among my nation, in Jerusalem—know do all the Jews, 5knowing me before from the first, (if they may be willing to testify,) that after the most exact sect of our worship, I lived a Pharisee;

Paul is clearly saying the Jews knew him in the "PAST". You see John Gill is not even using the word in the same sense as Paul. Paul is using the word in the past tense in both Acts 26:5 and Romans 8:29. John Gill is using the the word in the future tense, he is talking about God knowing the future before hand. That "is not" what Paul is saying, Paul is giving evidence to the saints at Rome using an example of something that happened in the past. Gill then goes on to interject his theology, speaking of things that the passage does not even reference, which I have found typical in Calvinist's teaching.

So back to the question, before what? Paul simpply says, those God knew before, obviously it is those God knew before the present time (the time at which Paul was writing this letter).

There really is no need to go any further as Gill is not even on the same page as Paul.

If you believe that your understanding is correct, please expalin it to me in light of the context of the passage.

Butch5
Dec 15th 2008, 07:18 PM
Butch, I am enjoying our debate and assure you we will be back and take back up with the above. Before I leave to go to the Doctor let me say this:

This is just some thing for you to think on until I return - you are saying one thing above and then denying it? How can you say you believe GOD CAN KEEP US and then say it is all up to man? Butch, if it's all up to man why do we need GOD TO KEEP US?

Thanks, Sam

It is simple. God can keep us, however, He will only keep those who want to be kept. No one can save themselves. If I live on an island and there is only one ferry, then it is only that ferry that can get me to the mainland. I cannot get to the mainland without that ferry. However, that ferry will only get me to the mainland if I want to go.

Butch5
Dec 15th 2008, 07:39 PM
Butch, before we do as you request I need for you to clarify some thing you said above:
If I understand your verbiage you are stating that a believer "WILL BE KEPT" therefore no need in posting those scriptures which to you is without any doubt? Then you wish to build a case by quoting particular passages that too you say a once saved one can walk away from salvation, be lost and die and go to a devils hell?
OK, I'll look at them and be more than happy to discuss them within context.

]quote]Hebrews 3:1 ( KJV ) 1Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus; The writer of Hebrews makes it clear He is speaking of believers, He goes on to say, Hebrews 3:7-12 ( KJV ) 7Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice, 8Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness: 9When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years. 10Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways. 11So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.) 12Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.

Butch, you start with V1, then jump all the way to V7-12, and imply that the passage is teaching one can lose salvation? - or at least I gather that - All right let's look at the contextual setting:

He says in the previous verse: Hebrews 3:6 But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.

...whose house are we; Butch, this speaks only to true believers in Christ, whether Jews or Gentiles; who, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, in whom Christ dwells by faith, and over whom he presides and reigns: This has nothing at all to do with losing salvation but is a description between those who 'profess' and those who 'profess' - notice as he explains this further.

...if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end. These words are not to be understood as a condition of the former assertion; nor is a final falling away from grace to be inferred from hence, for the supposition proves not such an inference, but the contrary; namely, that they that have true faith, hope, and confidence, shall keep them to the end; and therefore are the house of Christ: besides, the doctrine of apostasy is quite repugnant to the apostle's argument; according to which, Christ might have no house, and can have none till men have persevered: but the apostle's design is to give a word of exhortation to himself and others, to hold fast the confidence; and so the words are rather descriptive of the persons, who are the house of Christ; such who have a good hope, through grace, wrought in them, and can rejoice in hope of the glory of God; and can use freedom of speech and boldness at the throne of grace; and have an holy confidence of interest in the love of God, and salvation by Christ, and go on in the exercise of these graces to the end of their days. Now, when one comes to V7-8, one ought to be able to see a difference:

Hebrews 3:7-8 Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, [Psalms 95:7) To day if ye will hear his voice, Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness: Butch, the warning is ...Harden not you hearts,… There is a natural hardness of the heart; the heart of man is like a stone, destitute of spiritual life, motion, and activity; it is senseless, stupid, impenitent, stubborn, and inflexible, on which no impressions can be made, but by powerful grace: and there is an acquired, habitual, and voluntary hardness of heart, to which men arrive by various steps; as entertaining pleasing thoughts of sin; an actual commission of it, with frequency, till it becomes customary, and so habitual; an extenuation or justification of it, and so they become hardened against all reproofs and sermons, and to all afflictions and judgments; are insensible and past feeling, and openly declare for sin, and glory in it: and there is a hardness which God's people are liable to, and should guard against; and which is brought on by a neglect of private and public worship, and by keeping bad company, and through the ill examples of others, and by giving way to lesser sins; for all sin is of an hardening nature:

...as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness; the Jews provoked God in the wilderness by their unbelief, murmurings, ingratitude, and idolatry; and they tempted him there by distrusting his power and goodness; hence one of the places in which they murmured against him was called Massah and Meribah, Ex 17:7 and it is an aggravation of their sin, that it was in the wilderness, after they had been just brought out of bondage into liberty, and had lately had such an instance of the power and goodness of God, in bringing them through the Red sea; and where they could have no human supplies, and therefore should have been entirely dependent on God, and trust in him. But what happen, did or is this talking about one losing salvation? Since you emphasize in blue the "DEPARTING FROM THE LIVING GOD" I will skip to that and say:

...Take heed, brethren,… This exhortation is grounded upon the state and case of their ancestors before given, as a warning and caution to the then present Hebrews; and whom the apostle styles "brethren", to show that he had no hard thoughts of them, and that his jealousy was a godly one, and not an evil suspicion; and may teach us that all exhortations, admonitions, and reproofs should be given in love: ...lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief; or such an evil heart, in which unbelief prevails, and is predominant: there is in every man, whether a profane sinner, or an hypocritical professor, an evil heart, and an unbelieving one; and there is unbelief in regenerate persons at times, which when cherished and encouraged by them is a great evil, and should be avoided; and this sin is aggravated by the many instances of God's grace, and by the many declarations of it, and by the exceeding great and precious promises God has made, and by the great discoveries of his love to their souls in times past: and this sin, when it gets ahead, has a very great influence on the heart, to make it evil; and unbelief was the first sin of man, at least it very early appeared; it is the mother sin, and puts persons upon every sin; it defiles the conscience, hardens the heart, renders the word unprofitable, unfit for duty and makes men unstable, and therefore to be shunned; and especially because of the dreadful effect following:

...in departing from the living God; that is, from Christ, who is the Son over his own house, and whose voice is to be heard; for of no other is the apostle speaking in the context; and who is not only the Son of the living God, but he is himself the living God; he is life in himself, and is the fountain and author of life, natural, spiritual, and eternal. This is mentioned to exalt the person of Christ, the apostle and high priest of our profession; and to discover the greatness and heinousness of the sin of such as depart from him and his Gospel, and to deter men from it: there is a final and total departure from Christ, from his Gospel and ordinances, from his people, and from a former profession of faith, which is never to be found in true believers; for they are as Mount Zion, which can never be removed; but there is a partial departure, and for a while, which they are liable to, and is attended with bad effects to them, and should be guarded against: saints should take heed of themselves, and of their hearts, and of the unbelief of them, that they do not in the least depart from Christ, by letting go their hold of him, or by a non-exercise of faith upon him; and this should be the care and concern of every individual member of the church, and at all times; unbelief is very dishonourable to God and Christ; contradicts the word and promises of God; is uncomfortable to the saints; it is a sin that very easily besets, and is very provoking to God, and is highly resented by him. But never ever insinuates that a person once saved can depart from salvation but from the "REST" or that fellowship that we have at birth. Can we leave our first love, yes!!! But since He will never leave us nor forsake us and since he which hath begun a good work in us will perform/continue it until the day of Jesus Christ.
Butch what more can be said?
Thanks, Sam[/quote]


Sam,

I didn't want an exposition of the passages, I just wanted you to show me how I am misinterreting them. This is all opinion and no Scripture. Please show me form Scripture that a believer cannot turn away.

Butch5
Dec 15th 2008, 07:46 PM
Butch, since you wrest the scriptures to your own destruction we will never get done, I have answered the first portion of your argument and it holds true with the rest - but I will answer just this part and move on to the other posts and see how you respond.

Butch, your eagerness to show me false appears to blind your eyes from the word of God when rightly divided. The writer is giving a contrast between the ones saved and the ones who profess to be saved - if you would take the time to pay attention you ought to be able to see the two types in the above v's??? Now, "DRAW BACK" from what? Butch, V39, says BOLDLY: "BUT WE ARE NOT OF THEM WHO DRAW BACK UNTO PERDITION; BUT OF THEM THAT BELIEVE TO THE SAVING OF THE SOUL". Oh Butch, do you understand the difference? Over these past 40 years I can speak of some that profess to know Him and even cast out demons in His name but have been back out in (perdition living like hell for twice as many years as they claim to have been in???
These are the ones Paul speaks of in V38.

Butch, why do you contradict yourself, you are confusing the issue by the above statement???

Thanks, Sam

Sam,

You are not answering the questions. You say the writer is contrasting two types of people,


The writer is giving a contrast between the ones saved and the ones who profess to be saved



Please support this from the passage.

The writer says we are not of those who turn back, clearly there are those who turn back. You cannot turn from Christ if you were never in Christ. The writer makes "no" mention of those who profess to be saved. You cannot turn back from where you never were.

Samsheep2
Dec 15th 2008, 07:57 PM
This is our third post and I wish to start by asking a question: Is it your Decision or God's Decision? Much of modern day evangelism leaves people thinking their salvation is predicated on their decision for Christ. But how could anyone ever decide for God on his own? First Cor.2:14 says, "The natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God; for they are foolishness unto him." Second Cor.4:4 says, "The god of this world [who by the way is worshipped as God/Christ/LORD when all the time he is as Second Cor.11:12-15 presents him to be] hath blinded the minds of them who believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them." Sad to say but the truth is the truth – most that frequent the different forums and esp. one I just left are religious and follow the god of this world – Oh, I didn’t say it Jesus did; the many of religious persuasion will never become the ‘few’ of those called out of darkness into His marvelous light.
Natural/religious man is ignorant, in darkness, and dead in trespasses and sin (Eph. 2:1). In his natural state he could never muster up enough of whatever he thinks it takes to turn around and follow God. God must make the first move in his direction. If not he will remain dead in trespasses and in sins.
It was God who purpose to save us in eternity past and redeem us for eternity future. My friend if you can’t see this truth taught in the precious, preserved word of God then nothing I say will ever change your mind. There is no loss of salvation in between and why do I say this, simply because our salvation is secure because it is something God has purposed to do and not us.
THE PURPOSE OF SALVATION "To be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the first-born [Gk. prototokos] among many brethren." (v. 29c) To Conform Us to Christ means we have been called according to God's purpose, and His purpose is to make us like Christ. It is impossible to become saved but never become like Christ. God promised glorification which is the final stage of being like Him. John explains this in his first epistle: 1 John 3:2 “Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.” All saved folk living at this present time are already seated in Heavenly places in Christ Jesus but not yet glorified into His image because we are waiting on the ‘change’ to take place. We have the forgiveness of sin, and the gifts of love, joy, peace, and wisdom are mere by-products of our present salvation. But the main reason God saved us was to conform us to the image of His Son. Do you see this?

Thanks, Sam

Butch5
Dec 15th 2008, 08:08 PM
This is our third post and I wish to start by asking a question: Is it your Decision or God's Decision? Much of modern day evangelism leaves people thinking their salvation is predicated on their decision for Christ. But how could anyone ever decide for God on his own? First Cor.2:14 says, "The natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God; for they are foolishness unto him." Second Cor.4:4 says, "The god of this world [who by the way is worshipped as God/Christ/LORD when all the time he is as Second Cor.11:12-15 presents him to be] hath blinded the minds of them who believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them." Sad to say but the truth is the truth – most that frequent the different forums and esp. one I just left are religious and follow the god of this world – Oh, I didn’t say it Jesus did; the many of religious persuasion will never become the ‘few’ of those called out of darkness into His marvelous light.
Natural/religious man is ignorant, in darkness, and dead in trespasses and sin (Eph. 2:1). In his natural state he could never muster up enough of whatever he thinks it takes to turn around and follow God. God must make the first move in his direction. If not he will remain dead in trespasses and in sins.
It was God who purpose to save us in eternity past and redeem us for eternity future. My friend if you can’t see this truth taught in the precious, preserved word of God then nothing I say will ever change your mind. There is no loss of salvation in between and why do I say this, simply because our salvation is secure because it is something God has purposed to do and not us.
THE PURPOSE OF SALVATION "To be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the first-born [Gk. prototokos] among many brethren." (v. 29c) To Conform Us to Christ means we have been called according to God's purpose, and His purpose is to make us like Christ. It is impossible to become saved but never become like Christ. God promised glorification which is the final stage of being like Him. John explains this in his first epistle: 1 John 3:2 “Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.” All saved folk living at this present time are already seated in Heavenly places in Christ Jesus but not yet glorified into His image because we are waiting on the ‘change’ to take place. We have the forgiveness of sin, and the gifts of love, joy, peace, and wisdom are mere by-products of our present salvation. But the main reason God saved us was to conform us to the image of His Son. Do you see this?

Thanks, Sam

I don't know if you wrote this to me, however I agree that God is the one who initiates salvation. However, the initiating is not restricted to certain people.


John 1:5-10 ( KJV ) 5And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not. 6There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe. 8He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light. 9That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. 10He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

Samsheep2
Dec 15th 2008, 08:23 PM
John 1:5-10 ( KJV ) 5And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not. 6There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe. 8He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light. 9That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. 10He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

Butch, there is no need for me to respond to the above simply because you have not given the senses of the passage - besides I just read the note from the Parson and do not plan on posting directly to you again. The others are being kind and since you accused me of preaching/teaching/pushing false doctrine I will let it be.

Thanks, Sam,

Butch5
Dec 15th 2008, 08:26 PM
Butch, there is no need for me to respond to the above simply because you have not given the senses of the passage - besides I just read the note from the Parson and do not plan on posting directly to you again. The others are being kind and since you accused me of preaching/teaching/pushing false doctrine I will let it be.

Thanks, Sam,

Sam,

That was in the opening post, It has been made clear to me that that is not allowed. Since the opening post I have not said anything improper.

Samsheep2
Dec 15th 2008, 10:50 PM
Sam,

That was in the opening post, It has been made clear to me that that is not allowed. Since the opening post I have not said anything improper.

No problem and I think we understand each other in the area of this title.

Thanks, Sam

RogerW
Dec 16th 2008, 01:47 AM
I don't know if you wrote this to me, however I agree that God is the one who initiates salvation. However, the initiating is not restricted to certain people.

John 1:5-10 ( KJV ) 5And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not. 6There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe. 8He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light. 9That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. 10He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

Greetings Butch,

Can you show me how you are interpreting the part of John above you have highlighted? I'm asking because according to your statement above, "God is the one who initiates salvation. However, the initiating is not restricted to certain people", you seem to be implying that God initiates salvation to every human??? But the context shows us that salvation is initiated to "as many as received Him" and "to them gave He power to become sons of God." Therefore salvation is NOT initiated to every human, but only those who believe on His name, which are born of God.

Joh 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
Joh 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
Joh 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Many Blessings,
RW

Butch5
Dec 16th 2008, 04:07 AM
Greetings Butch,

Can you show me how you are interpreting the part of John above you have highlighted? I'm asking because according to your statement above, "God is the one who initiates salvation. However, the initiating is not restricted to certain people", you seem to be implying that God initiates salvation to every human??? But the context shows us that salvation is initiated to "as many as received Him" and "to them gave He power to become sons of God." Therefore salvation is NOT initiated to every human, but only those who believe on His name, which are born of God.

Joh 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
Joh 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
Joh 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Many Blessings,
RW

Roger,

We have been here before my friend. Let me explain, Jesus gives light, or understanding to every man that comes into the world. Some men receive the light and some don't. Those who receive the light are given the right to become children of God.

Now John 1:13 may be a corruption. Tertullian discusses this verse, accusing the Gnostic's of changing it from was to were. It may be that it read, who was born of God. if that is the case then the verse would refer to Christ and not those who receive Him. Let me ask you this, those who received Him, were they born of hte will of man? Yes, Were they born of blood? Yes. Were they born of the will of the flesh? Yes, Now let me ask you this, was Christ, born of the will of the flesh, No. Was He born of blood, No. Was He born of the will of man? No. Was He born of God? Yes.
This is Tertullian's argument.

Ante-Nicene Fathers

Tertullian
Anti-Marcion
Book 5 Chapter 19, On the Flesh of Christ



Chap. XIX.—Christ, as to His Divine Nature, as the Word of God, Became Flesh, Not by Carnal Conception, nor by the Will of the Flesh and of Man, but by the Will of God. Christ’s Divine Nature, of Its Own Accord, Descended into the Virgin’s Womb.



What, then, is the meaning of this passage, “Born196 (qv://steplinkto1 0000005936/)II-11-196 not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God?” (John 1:13 (qv://steplinkto4 43 1:13/)) I shall make more use of this passage after I have confuted those who have tampered with it. They maintain that it was written thus (in the plural)197 (qv://steplinkto1 0000005937/)II-11-197 “Who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God,” as if designating those who were before mentioned as “believing in His name,” in order to point out the existence of that mysterious seed of the elect and spiritual which they appropriate to themselves.198 (qv://steplinkto1 0000005938/)II-11-198 But how can this be, when all who 538 believe in the name of the Lord are, by reason of the common principle of the human race, born of blood, and of the will of the flesh, and of man, as indeed is Valentinus himself? The expression is in the singular number, as referring to the Lord, “He was born of God.” And very properly, because Christ is the Word of God, and with the Word the Spirit of God, and by the Spirit the Power of God, and whatsoever else appertains to God. As flesh, however, He is not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of man, because it was by the will of God that the Word was made flesh. To the flesh, indeed, and not to the Word, accrues the denial of the nativity which is natural to us all as men,199 (qv://steplinkto1 0000005939/)II-11-199 because it was as flesh that He had thus to be born, and not as the Word. Now, whilst the passage actually denies that He was born of the will of the flesh, how is it that it did not also deny (that He was born) of the substance of the flesh? For it did not disavow the substance of the flesh when it denied His being “born of blood” but only the matter of the seed,’ which, as all know, is the warm blood as convected by ebullition200 (qv://steplinkto1 0000005940/)II-11-200 into the coagulum of the woman’s blood. In the cheese, it is from the coagulation that the milky substance acquires that consistency,201 (qv://steplinkto1 0000005941/)II-11-201 which is condensed by infusing the rennet.202 (qv://steplinkto1 0000005942/)II-11-202 We thus understand that what is denied is the Lord’s birth after sexual intercourse (as is suggested by the phrase, “the will of man and of the flesh”), not His nativity from a woman’s womb. Why, too, is it insisted on with such an accumulation of emphasis that He was not born of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor (of the will) of man, if it were not that His flesh was such that no man could have any doubt on the point of its being born from sexual intercourse? Again, although denying His birth from such cohabitation, the passage did not deny that He was born of real flesh; it rather affirmed this, by the very fact that it did not deny His birth in the flesh in the same way that it denied His birth from sexual intercourse. Pray, tell me, why the Spirit of God203 (qv://steplinkto1 0000005943/)II-11-203 descended into a woman’s womb at all, if He did not do so for the purpose of partaking of flesh from the womb. For He could have become spiritual flesh204 (qv://steplinkto1 0000005944/)II-11-204 without such a process,—much more simply, indeed, without the womb than in it. He had no reason for enclosing Himself within one, if He was to bear forth nothing from it. Not without reason, however, did He descend into a womb. Therefore He received (flesh) therefrom; else, if He received nothing therefrom, His descent into it would have been without a reason, especially if He meant to become flesh of that sort which was not derived from a womb, that is to say, a spiritual one.205 (qv://steplinkto1 0000005945/)II-11-205


However even if this is not the case the right to be children of God is given to those who receive.

I see you highlighted, which were born of God. It is God who makes one born again, there is no doubt here, however it is given to those who receive.

The Parson
Dec 16th 2008, 04:44 AM
It astounds me how complex we make salvation. It astounds me even more how man wants to compound more complication to the very acts of repentance and acceptance of a free gift of salvation and ultimately be secure in that preservation.

And of course God is the one who initiates salvation. John 6:43 Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves. 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me. In order to realize you need forgiveness of your sin, you have to be drawn by the Father. This is one of many verses that prove that.

And as for believing there is corruption in the scriptures, there is another matter. Either you believe that the word is the inerrant, pure word of God or you don’t. Its black and white. No grey area. If you don’t believe it is, where is your salvation? I mean, aren’t you begotten (born again) by the hearing of the word? Romans 10:16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Maybe I need to take it one step further. Is the Bible the inerrant Word of God or is it not? And if the word of God is errant, where is your faith? It most certainly wouldn’t be strong enough to give you the faith you need to be saved unless it was the holy and totally supernaturally inspired word.

PilgrimPastor
Dec 16th 2008, 05:00 AM
The Parson (above post) makes a good point about our view of the Bible. I echo it...

Also, I sometimes wonder what drives people to get so hung up on this. I was stuck on it went I first started to study theology seriously a decade or so ago; for me it was a matter of consistency, I longed for a systematic theology that was above all else, rooted in the Scripture, not Philosophy, and was coherent. I found that it in an ever evolving systematic theology that I refer to as the theology of the sojourner, the Pilgrim's theology, I am ever growing as I follow Christ; I have settled this and other issues by picking up my walking stick, strapping on my sandals, and following after the Master of Mercy; a change of focus from coherent theology to intense discipleship.

That aside, it seems plain that those who have been called have been sealed. Christ died for the world, his blood is sufficient for all but only efficient for those who respond to the promptings of the Holy Spirit poured out to all. Not sure that answers the question... :2cents:

Butch5
Dec 16th 2008, 05:18 AM
It astounds me how complex we make salvation. It astounds me even more how man wants to compound more complication to the very acts of repentance and acceptance of a free gift of salvation and ultimately be secure in that preservation.

And of course God is the one who initiates salvation. John 6:43 Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves. 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me. In order to realize you need forgiveness of your sin, you have to be drawn by the Father. This is one of many verses that prove that.

And as for believing there is corruption in the scriptures, there is another matter. Either you believe that the word is the inerrant, pure word of God or you don’t. Its black and white. No grey area. If you don’t believe it is, where is your salvation? I mean, aren’t you begotten (born again) by the hearing of the word? Romans 10:16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Maybe I need to take it one step further. Is the Bible the inerrant Word of God or is it not? And if the word of God is errant, where is your faith? It most certainly wouldn’t be strong enough to give you the faith you need to be saved unless it was the holy and totally supernaturally inspired word.

What is the word of God? Is it the KJV, NKJV, NASB, HCB, RSV, ESV, etc.
I believe the original word was inspired, I don't believe translations are inspired. There are over 5000 Greek manuscripts and no 2 read exactly alike. My point is, our English translations are just that, translations.

Butch5
Dec 16th 2008, 05:25 AM
The Parson (above post) makes a good point about our view of the Bible. I echo it...

Also, I sometimes wonder what drives people to get so hung up on this. I was stuck on it went I first started to study theology seriously a decade or so ago; for me it was a matter of consistency, I longed for a systematic theology that was above all else, rooted in the Scripture, not Philosophy, and was coherent. I found that it in an ever evolving systematic theology that I refer to as the theology of the sojourner, the Pilgrim's theology, I am ever growing as I follow Christ; I have settled this and other issues by picking up my walking stick, strapping on my sandals, and following after the Master of Mercy; a change of focus from coherent theology to intense discipleship.

That aside, it seems plain that those who have been called have been sealed. Christ died for the world, his blood is sufficient for all but only efficient for those who respond to the promptings of the Holy Spirit poured out to all. Not sure that answers the question... :2cents:

I agree with you on the discipleship statement, that is the ultimate goal. However, I think it is of utmost importance that we also make certain that what we are teaching is correct doctrine. What will we say to God if we have led others astray because we did not teach correct doctrine? If I tell a man that once he is saved he cannot be lost, then he goes out and lives in sin because I told him he cannot be lost, what will I say to God, because that man lived in sin? Jesus said, we will be judged for every idle word.

The Parson
Dec 16th 2008, 05:34 AM
What is the word of God? Is it the KJV, NKJV, NASB, HCB, RSV, ESV, etc.
I believe the original word was inspired, I don't believe translations are inspired. There are over 5000 Greek manuscripts and no 2 read exactly alike. My point is, our English translations are just that, translations.Don't go there please Butch. We aren't going to go into a Bible versions debate in this thread sir.

I'll will say plainly that I believe the King James is the inerrant and inspired Word of God translated accuratly into English by the providence of God. You don't have to and I don't intend on trying to convince you otherwise. But saying that I also have to say I don't have the struggle of believing that God has preserved His Word as some do and that I did not come under conviction of my sin and was not drawn to God until I heard it preached.

And it was that same Word of God I heard that taught me that I have eternal life with no reservation at all that what I have commited to God, speaking of my eternal soul, He will keep safe and secure. Romans 8:38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, 8:39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Paul said it well when he wrote Timothy: 2nd Timothy 1:12 For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day. 1:13 Hold fast the form of sound words, which thou hast heard of me, in faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.

Thaddaeus
Dec 16th 2008, 07:03 AM
I have started a thread about osas (once saved always saved) before. and i will have to apologize to the ones that don't believe in this doctrine, cause God showed me some verses just the other day. a lady at the church ask me to explain these verses and as i did i saw that i had been wrong about the people, who believe that they could walk away from their salvation, for I have always preached that it was just a lack of faith in Jesus, that I trust in the righteousness Of Jesus, to get me in, not my righteousness or strength, and that if someone believed that they could walk away from God, that it was just a matter of faith, and who their faith was in Jesus or themselves, but look at these verses that God showed me
1jo 3:18My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.1jo 3:19And hereby we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before him.1jo 3:20For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things.1jo 3:21Beloved, if our heart condemn us not, then have we confidence toward God.1jo 3:22And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.1jo 3:23And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.1jo 3:24And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

now here John is talking to the Christians (my little Children), and that we know that we are of Him. but look at verse 20 real careful. it says that even though, through the law or our knowledge of sin, or maybe even what we have heard preached, such as one that believes that they can walk away from their salvation, and they are condemned by their own heart( their own heart has convince them they lost their salvation) that even God is greater than their heart, and he knoweth if they have truely called upon the name of the Lord or He knoweth all things. He knows if they are saved or not. He is the God of our salvation not us. He is greater than any doctrine that man can come up with , verse 21 covers the osas people ( Thats me :pp I am blessed let no man curse me :pp) But when we slip and our heart does not tell us that we are now lost again then we have trust toward God , so I have been wrong when I have said that people who don't believe in osas :cry:, are just lacking the faith they need to trust in God , for God says here He is greater than the false doctrine that you can walk away from Him, and that even if they believe that, God does not condemn them and He knows if they are saved or not. Sorry, We will see you in heaven one day. for you see, God is even greater than you.

But make one big note here, folks on both sides, that verse 20 covers the ones that condemn themselves and verse 21 covers us (osas). But in the first verse John, called us all Children, so let's all becareful not to condemn one another, For truely God is greater than all of us.


Ro 3:22 (http://bibleforums.org/ro+3:22)Even the RIGHTEOUSNESS of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

Samsheep2
Dec 16th 2008, 12:53 PM
The Parson (above post) makes a good point about our view of the Bible. I echo it...That aside, it seems plain that those who have been called have been sealed. Christ died for the world, his blood is sufficient for all but only efficient for those who respond to the promptings of the Holy Spirit poured out to all. Not sure that answers the question... :2cents: Pilgrim, I echo both you and the Parson in the balanced response given since scripture as always out weighs human supposition.

Thanks to both of you, Sam

Samsheep2
Dec 16th 2008, 12:55 PM
What is the word of God? Is it the KJV, NKJV, NASB, HCB, RSV, ESV, etc.
I believe the original word was inspired, I don't believe translations are inspired. There are over 5000 Greek manuscripts and no 2 read exactly alike. My point is, our English translations are just that, translations.

Butch, are you saying then that God has not secured His word for all generations???

Samsheep2
Dec 16th 2008, 01:10 PM
I think it is of utmost importance that we also make certain that what we are teaching is correct doctrine. What will we say to God if we have led others astray because we did not teach correct doctrine? If I tell a man that once he is saved he cannot be lost, then he goes out and lives in sin because I told him he cannot be lost, what will I say to God, because that man lived in sin? Jesus said, we will be judged for every idle word.

Butch, I agree with what I u/l first above - yes, it is very important that we make sure our what we teach is correct. And as you know there is a vast difference in 'teaching' and tongue-in-cheek remarks in these forums - having said that allow me to move to my next u/l point you made above.
First off, supposition doesn't last as long in another as spiritual imputation. Human responsibility and Sovereign will do run on the same track system toward the eternal destination but God as usual is still in charge.
For instance, since greater is He (Holy Spirit) within that man above you speak of (that is if he actually was saved) than he (the liar, devil, etc) that is within the world - then instead of wondering what you will say to God why not let God take care of His own salvation.
My last point, Since it is God that saves and not you or I and since God promises that when the "SPIRIT OF TRUTH" comes to abide in the believer He and He alone will do as John 16:13 states:
John 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
Butch, do you worry about things you have no control over?

Thanks, Sam

Partaker of Christ
Dec 16th 2008, 01:21 PM
What is the word of God? Is it the KJV, NKJV, NASB, HCB, RSV, ESV, etc.
I believe the original word was inspired, I don't believe translations are inspired. There are over 5000 Greek manuscripts and no 2 read exactly alike. My point is, our English translations are just that, translations.

I tell you a truth. I have read many of these translations, and been inspired. I have listen to the preaching by some, from these same translations, and I have been feed and built up.

I have never seen, read, or heard from the original scriptures, but here I stand Saved by Grace!

Partaker of Christ
Dec 16th 2008, 01:27 PM
I agree with you on the discipleship statement, that is the ultimate goal. However, I think it is of utmost importance that we also make certain that what we are teaching is correct doctrine. What will we say to God if we have led others astray because we did not teach correct doctrine? If I tell a man that once he is saved he cannot be lost, then he goes out and lives in sin because I told him he cannot be lost, what will I say to God, because that man lived in sin? Jesus said, we will be judged for every idle word.

Do you avoid speaking the truth, because someone may go and live in sin?

Butch5
Dec 17th 2008, 04:31 AM
Butch, are you saying then that God has not secured His word for all generations???

Yes He has kept His word, however I don't know that any single translation is totally correct, and I don't think any are inspired. If I had to one that I thought was inspired, it would probably be the Septuagint. However that is the OT.

reformedct
Dec 17th 2008, 04:41 AM
we can argue about translations all day
Do you know the true nature of the Word?

The word is living and active

The word is Spirit

Jesus is the Word
the WOrd became flesh

The Spirit of God is also called the Spirit of CHrist in Romans 8:9

translations/smasmlations lol

people can tamper with letters, but they can't tamper with Jesus or His Spirit. True believers have His Spirit which leads them into all truth

People can twist the Bible to prove universalism, inclusion salvation and homosexual marriage and whatever else they want. But there is ONE SPIRIT. IN the end all will gaze upon Christ and they will be judged.

If we say our salvation is not secure, but lost because of sin we must say that salvation and the sealing of the Spirirt is so flimsy that every lustful thought will cause you to break the SEAL OF GOD. if you don't love someone with all your heart as well as God, if you love them with half your heart for one second, there goes your seal! do you see what an insult this is to the power of God?

Then some will go on to say, well, only certain sins will cause you to lose it, and others won't. O really? is there a list of permissible sins? Does God say, well, it wasn't THAT BAD. YOURE OK. Just Dont do the major sins. This would say that God is OK with some sins. James said if you keep the whole law and break just one you break them all. True, some sins have a more devastating immediate impact on humanity, such as a molester compared to someone who lusts in their heart. But God hates sin all the same. In Gods eyes, all sin is disgusting because He is perfect. Did you know that in the old testament, even ACCIDENTAL SINS HAD TO BE ATONED FOR, and even if you accidentaly did a certain sin you might be stoned to death. Remember when God told people not to touch the ark of the covenant? It was about to fall over, so a man grabbed it so it wouldn't fall to the ground. Some would say, well what a thoughtful guy! He is trying to protect the ark of the covenant, sure God said don't touch it, but it wasn't that bad and His motives were for the good right? WRONG. God immediatley killed that man. God is not impartial in judegement.

This is the standard:
-100% perfect as He is perfect

-or Not

If that's the case, should we trust in ANy of our own righteousness? before or after being justified by faith?

You all can trust in Christs work AND yours to be justified if you want

I will trust in Christ's work alone and give Him every drop of Glory in the bucket. ( this does not mean we live carnal lives, either, because he who began a work in you will be faithful to complete it, but we are not justified by sanctification. We are justified and sanctified simultaenously. Justification is a once and for all act, while sanctification is your life in which God conforms you to the image o His glorious Son)


That being said, you may argue against believers assurance, but did you know God wants us to be assured of our salvation? Hebrews 6:11 says: " And we desire each one of you to show the same earnestness to have full assurance of hope until the end, so that you may not be sluggish, but imitators of those who through faith and patience inherit the promises"

How can you be assured in something that is in your own hands? can you be assured in your own righteousness? Are you confident in yourself that you will never sin? because if you lose your salvation by sinning, the only assurance you have is in your ability to not sin.

Some will say, no, you don't lose your salvation everytime you sin. It is a process. Would someone please outline this process? Surley if there was a process to which we become unjustified and break the seal of the Spirit, God would make it plain and clear what that process was, instead of leaving us to some vague subjective series of events that happen before we lose the gift of God, who claims that his gifts and callings are irrevocable


I know i may be coming off too harsh i apologize but i feel so strongly about this point. If true believers would rest in their assurance, they would serve God with joy and gladness and thankfulness instead of fearing everyday that they might fumble the ball.

Some will say, shouldnt we fear God? we can't have joy and fear God can we? Yes you can! God is scary because he is ultimately the judge of each one of us, and He is waaaaaaaaaaaaay more powerful than us and can throw us into hell. However, once we have truly been born again, we do not fear His wrath, we fear his CHASTISEMENT.

the bible claims that if you are without chastisement, you are illegetimate(some versions say bastard) sons. If salvation is lost by sinning, can a person who is not saved be alled a son of God? and if a person is not a son of God, can he be chastised? Chastisement is different than judgement, chastisement is discipline and correction. Chastisement i spanking your kid for being bad. Chastisement is not condemning your son. It is correcting and disciplining your son. If the son never sins, can there be discipline? or condemnation?

as sons of God we fear His chastisement. The other thing to be feared is not truly being saved at all, but perhaps just faking it on the outside. That is the true fear. It is a fearful thing to fall in the hands of the living God.

But Jesus said, lo, i am with you, even till the end of the age.

Does it make sense for Jesus to save us and then leave us, making Him a liar? many times some will say, it is the spirit that leaves you.

Did you know that the Spirit is also refered to as the Spirit of Christ? Romans 8:9? So if the incarnate Christ said he will never leave us, will the Spirit of that Christ leave us?

Some will say,
well the bible says do not grieve the spirit

yes you are correct! but did you finish the rest of the verse? "by whom you have been sealed" (past tense)

do not quench the spirit

true! but does the bible then say "because if you do so, he will leave you?"

or does God call the Spirit the Comforter? Is a wife comforting who leaves everytime the husband screws something up?


Sorry for the length but i haven't been in a debate like this before i am very excited haha

I do not believe in a flimsy salvation. I believe in an Almighty powerful God who will lead me and guide me and be with me until the end of the Age.

Butch5
Dec 17th 2008, 04:46 AM
Butch, I agree with what I u/l first above - yes, it is very important that we make sure our what we teach is correct. And as you know there is a vast difference in 'teaching' and tongue-in-cheek remarks in these forums - having said that allow me to move to my next u/l point you made above.
First off, supposition doesn't last as long in another as spiritual imputation. Human responsibility and Sovereign will do run on the same track system toward the eternal destination but God as usual is still in charge.
For instance, since greater is He (Holy Spirit) within that man above you speak of (that is if he actually was saved) than he (the liar, devil, etc) that is within the world - then instead of wondering what you will say to God why not let God take care of His own salvation.
My last point, Since it is God that saves and not you or I and since God promises that when the "SPIRIT OF TRUTH" comes to abide in the believer He and He alone will do as John 16:13 states:
John 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
Butch, do you worry about things you have no control over?

Thanks, Sam

No Sam, I don't worry about things I have no control over. However, Christ commanded us to go and preach the gospel. Paul said the ministry of reconciliation had been given to the apostles, so if I teach what the gospel is not saying, then I am teaching a false doctrine.

Regarding John 16:13, you have that verse out of context. Jesus said that to His disciples, they were the ones who were lead all truth.

Luke 24:43-47 ( KJV ) 43And he took it, and did eat before them. 44And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me. 45Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures, 46And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day: 47And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.


Ephesians 3:2-7 ( KJV ) 2If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward: 3How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words, 4Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ) 5Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit; 6That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel: 7Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.

It was the apostles.

To say that this verse applies to believers in general, presents some major hurdles. Namely, with all of the different beliefs among Christians and the fact that all of these different beliefs cannot all be correct, how could all believers have been led into all truth? The Calvinist and the Arminian have opposing views on some doctrines, surely the holy Spirit did not lead both groups into all truth differently. If hte holy Spirit lead all believers into all truth, then the church would be truly united.

Butch5
Dec 17th 2008, 04:52 AM
we can argue about translations all day
Do you know the true nature of the Word?

The word is living and active

The word is Spirit

Jesus is the Word
the WOrd became flesh

The Spirit of God is also called the Spirit of CHrist in Romans 8:9

translations/smasmlations lol

people can tamper with letters, but they can't tamper with Jesus or His Spirit. True believers have His Spirit which leads them into all truth

People can twist the Bible to prove universalism, inclusion salvation and homosexual marriage and whatever else they want. But there is ONE SPIRIT. IN the end all will gaze upon Christ and they will be judged.

If we say our salvation is not secure, but lost because of sin we must say that salvation and the sealing of the Spirirt is so flimsy that every lustful thought will cause you to break the SEAL OF GOD. if you don't love someone with all your heart as well as God, if you love them with half your heart for one second, there goes your seal! do you see what an insult this is to the power of God?

Then some will go on to say, well, only certain sins will cause you to lose it, and others won't. O really? is there a list of permissible sins? Does God say, well, it wasn't THAT BAD. YOURE OK. Just Dont do the major sins. This would say that God is OK with some sins. James said if you keep the whole law and break just one you break them all. True, some sins have a more devastating immediate impact on humanity, such as a molester compared to someone who lusts in their heart. But God hates sin all the same. In Gods eyes, all sin is disgusting because He is perfect. Did you know that in the old testament, even ACCIDENTAL SINS HAD TO BE ATONED FOR, and even if you accidentaly did a certain sin you might be stoned to death. Remember when God told people not to touch the ark of the covenant? It was about to fall over, so a man grabbed it so it wouldn't fall to the ground. Some would say, well what a thoughtful guy! He is trying to protect the ark of the covenant, sure God said don't touch it, but it wasn't that bad and His motives were for the good right? WRONG. God immediatley killed that man. God is not impartial in judegement.

This is the standard:
-100% perfect as He is perfect

-or Not

If that's the case, should we trust in ANy of our own righteousness? before or after being justified by faith?

You all can trust in Christs work AND yours to be justified if you want

I will trust in Christ's work alone and give Him every drop of Glory in the bucket. ( this does not mean we live carnal lives, either, because he who began a work in you will be faithful to complete it, but we are not justified by sanctification. We are justified and sanctified simultaenously. Justification is a once and for all act, while sanctification is your life in which God conforms you to the image o His glorious Son)


That being said, you may argue against believers assurance, but did you know God wants us to be assured of our salvation? Hebrews 6:11 says: " And we desire each one of you to show the same earnestness to have full assurance of hope until the end, so that you may not be sluggish, but imitators of those who through faith and patience inherit the promises"

How can you be assured in something that is in your own hands? can you be assured in your own righteousness? Are you confident in yourself that you will never sin? because if you lose your salvation by sinning, the only assurance you have is in your ability to not sin.

Some will say, no, you don't lose your salvation everytime you sin. It is a process. Would someone please outline this process? Surley if there was a process to which we become unjustified and break the seal of the Spirit, God would make it plain and clear what that process was, instead of leaving us to some vague subjective series of events that happen before we lose the gift of God, who claims that his gifts and callings are irrevocable


I know i may be coming off too harsh i apologize but i feel so strongly about this point. If true believers would rest in their assurance, they would serve God with joy and gladness and thankfulness instead of fearing everyday that they might fumble the ball.

Some will say, shouldnt we fear God? we can't have joy and fear God can we? Yes you can! God is scary because he is ultimately the judge of each one of us, and He is waaaaaaaaaaaaay more powerful than us and can throw us into hell. However, once we have truly been born again, we do not fear His wrath, we fear his CHASTISEMENT.

the bible claims that if you are without chastisement, you are illegetimate(some versions say bastard) sons. If salvation is lost by sinning, can a person who is not saved be alled a son of God? and if a person is not a son of God, can he be chastised? Chastisement is different than judgement, chastisement is discipline and correction. Chastisement i spanking your kid for being bad. Chastisement is not condemning your son. It is correcting and disciplining your son. If the son never sins, can there be discipline? or condemnation?

as sons of God we fear His chastisement. The other thing to be feared is not truly being saved at all, but perhaps just faking it on the outside. That is the true fear. It is a fearful thing to fall in the hands of the living God.

But Jesus said, lo, i am with you, even till the end of the age.

Does it make sense for Jesus to save us and then leave us, making Him a liar? many times some will say, it is the spirit that leaves you.

Did you know that the Spirit is also refered to as the Spirit of Christ? Romans 8:9? So if the incarnate Christ said he will never leave us, will the Spirit of that Christ leave us?

Some will say,
well the bible says do not grieve the spirit

yes you are correct! but did you finish the rest of the verse? "by whom you have been sealed" (past tense)

do not quench the spirit

true! but does the bible then say "because if you do so, he will leave you?"

or does God call the Spirit the Comforter? Is a wife comforting who leaves everytime the husband screws something up?


Sorry for the length but i haven't been in a debate like this before i am very excited haha


I do not believe in a flimsy salvation. I believe in an Almighty powerful God who will lead me and guide me and be with me until the end of the Age.

You're welcome to your opiniion. I'll stick with Scripture.

BTW, I don't think it is sin that causes one to lose salvation, it is the turning away from God that does so.

Butch5
Dec 17th 2008, 04:54 AM
Do you avoid speaking the truth, because someone may go and live in sin?

No, I do not. Why does the message have to be 15 characters?

threebigrocks
Dec 17th 2008, 04:58 AM
I agree with you on the discipleship statement, that is the ultimate goal. However, I think it is of utmost importance that we also make certain that what we are teaching is correct doctrine. What will we say to God if we have led others astray because we did not teach correct doctrine? If I tell a man that once he is saved he cannot be lost, then he goes out and lives in sin because I told him he cannot be lost, what will I say to God, because that man lived in sin? Jesus said, we will be judged for every idle word.


Yes He has kept His word, however I don't know that any single translation is totally correct, and I don't think any are inspired. If I had to one that I thought was inspired, it would probably be the Septuagint. However that is the OT.

If we need to be careful and make certain that what we teach is correct doctrine - how can we do that if there isn't any true Word to discern what is true doctrine?

Butch5
Dec 17th 2008, 05:46 AM
If we need to be careful and make certain that what we teach is correct doctrine - how can we do that if there isn't any true Word to discern what is true doctrine?

I didn't say there was not the true word. I said I don't think any one translation has it all right.

Samsheep2
Dec 17th 2008, 02:13 PM
Yes He has kept His word, however I don't know that any single translation is totally correct, and I don't think any are inspired. If I had to one that I thought was inspired, it would probably be the Septuagint. However that is the OT.
Then are you saying His word is still here but where is it? Surely you are not one that believes it is contained within all versions some where? Do you think God would do like a lot of young woman today that throw their babies in the trash can with all the rubble?
Butch, my point is this, are you able to separate the word from the rubble?
Thanks, Sam

Firstfruits
Dec 17th 2008, 02:21 PM
2 Cor 4:3 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=47&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=3) But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:

Lk 10:21 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=42&CHAP=10&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=21) In that hour Jesus rejoiced in spirit, and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes: even so, Father; for so it seemed good in thy sight.

1 Cor 2:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=46&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

If Gods word is hidden then how are we to know which is the right way?

How do we know what is true or false?

God bless!

Firstfruits

Samsheep2
Dec 17th 2008, 02:29 PM
No Sam, I don't worry about things I have no control over. However, Christ commanded us to go and preach the gospel. Paul said the ministry of reconciliation had been given to the apostles, so if I teach what the gospel is not saying, then I am teaching a false doctrine. To every creature right - and have you done that or was this just to them? And do you think these 12 preached to every creature during their different ministry areas?


Regarding John 16:13, you have that verse out of context. Jesus said that to His disciples, they were the ones who were lead all truth. OH! sorry, I thought you claim to be one of His disciples - Butch, since it is not my job/ministry/responsibility or? to straighten you or any other out I too can say you have taken that out of context. So, are you telling me then that you are able to differentiate between the passages for then and now??? WOW!!! You have amazed me in the short time I've known you and the more I read I see you are following the teaching of another - just who I don't know but certainly not the Spirit of truth.


Ephesians 3:2-7 ( KJV ) 2If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward: 3How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words, 4Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ) 5Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit; 6That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel: 7Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power. Butch, I may believe this a bit stronger than you do - matter of fact I know I do since even the Jewish Apostles (and esp. Peter) at the time Paul experienced this did not have the foggiest - reason being they were called to the circumcision and Paul to the uncircumcised. Of course as Paul states the part that pertained unto them (V5) but the complete mystery was revealed to him by the LORD in a private meeting.


To say that this verse applies to believers in general, presents some major hurdles. Namely, with all of the different beliefs among Christians and the fact that all of these different beliefs cannot all be correct, how could all believers have been led into all truth? The Calvinist and the Arminian have opposing views on some doctrines, surely the holy Spirit did not lead both groups into all truth differently. If hte holy Spirit lead all believers into all truth, then the church would be truly united. Butch, I'm glad you word this as you do because it makes it very easy to see and understand that you do not understand the rightly dividing of scripture and what it means. I intend to break this down and in a good spirited way so as not to offend any if possible. If you will allow i shall do so in my next post to you.

Thanks, Sam

BroRog
Dec 17th 2008, 02:40 PM
There are some people who are so committed to the transitory nature of our existence that they can not see the eternal, will not acknowledge verses that speak about the eternal, or accept God's promises to those whom he saves. For these men, everything is contingent and ambiguous.

Samsheep2
Dec 17th 2008, 02:45 PM
To say that this verse applies to believers in general, presents some major hurdles. Butch, have you ever paid any attention to or studied out the four times the expression 'spirit of truth' is used in the NT? Maybe you need too - because if as you conclude above then God is a lie and I'm left to work all this out by myself!!! Butch, you knocked down the first hurdle when you decided to attempt to jump over truth.


Namely, with all of the different beliefs among Christians and the fact that all of these different beliefs cannot all be correct, how could all believers have been led into all truth?Please don't think that i call you naive but Butch, that is a naive statement and about the best one I've ever seen in print. I shall answer your questions whether or not you agree with me:
1.Different beliefs is a proof that God is not the author of them all. You know since this is explained in Eph.4:1-15, by the way, I hope you don't say this was only given to the saints at Ephesus?
2.Not correct beliefs is simply because God the Spirit of truth is not leading all these different beliefs.
3.Your last question baffles me plus surprises me simply because all true believers have the same "SPIRIT OF TRUTH" my emphasis only and not hollering at you.


The Calvinist and the Arminian have opposing views on some doctrines, surely the holy Spirit did not lead both groups into all truth differently. If hte holy Spirit lead all believers into all truth, then the church would be truly united.Butch, we are not talking about C/A's but about the Spirit of truth remember? Why bring into this man made beliefs when it was the Spirit of Truth who was given to lead and to guide all true believers into the truth.
You and I have opposing views and it is because one is not rightly dividing the word of truth and has nothing to do with C/A's but core values.
Thanks, Sam

Samsheep2
Dec 17th 2008, 02:47 PM
You're welcome to your opiniion. I'll stick with Scripture.

BTW, I don't think it is sin that causes one to lose salvation, it is the turning away from God that does so.
I would love to hear your explanation of how then one can turn away from God when He has promised never to leave us or forsake us???
Thanks, Sam

Samsheep2
Dec 17th 2008, 02:49 PM
I didn't say there was not the true word. I said I don't think any one translation has it all right.
Then how many versions do you have to have/use to be able to know you have all of the preserved word of God?

ProjectPeter
Dec 17th 2008, 03:56 PM
I would love to hear your explanation of how then one can turn away from God when He has promised never to leave us or forsake us???
Thanks, Sam
God's promise of never leaving us doesn't cover man ever leaving Him does it? God is faithful even if man isn't. That isn't a promise that man will never fall away... just a promise of the faithfulness of God.

Firstfruits
Dec 17th 2008, 04:07 PM
God's promise of never leaving us doesn't cover man ever leaving Him does it? God is faithful even if man isn't. That isn't a promise that man will never fall away... just a promise of the faithfulness of God.

Amen to that,

Firstfruits

Samsheep2
Dec 17th 2008, 04:21 PM
God's promise of never leaving us doesn't cover man ever leaving Him does it? God is faithful even if man isn't. That isn't a promise that man will never fall away... just a promise of the faithfulness of God.
True, if we both understand what is meant by falling away as you said above. For instance if one as Jesus described in Matt.7:21-23 did not fall away from - but in the context was never ever at any time one of His own while doing all he did in the name of Jesus then these did not fall away - but as explained in Hebrews are they not in the court with these:

Hebrews 10:38-39 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him. But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul. Those in Matt.7 are most surely counted with these here and could easily be I.D. with these:

1 John 2:18-20 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time. They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us. But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things.

Now, when Paul pen down these words, he gave all believers a vivid picture of the truth about the two:
2 Thessalonians 2:1-12 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
All that which is not of God today, back then and still to come will be carried out by those who crept in unawares, never at any time ever knew God in the free pardon of sin and were/are/still a two-fold child of the god of this world, used of the devil to cause all the confusion we have in churches today and when it's all said and done will be cast into the lake of fire where the bible says all will be.

Thanks, Sam

P.S. I could say much, much, much more - but my old fingers hate this tying of 15 words a minute? (hehehehe)

The Parson
Dec 17th 2008, 04:38 PM
God's promise of never leaving us doesn't cover man ever leaving Him does it? God is faithful even if man isn't. That isn't a promise that man will never fall away... just a promise of the faithfulness of God.Here is where we would differ wholey in the belief of soul security. I believe man can't walk away ProPet. At least not after the price is paid for his soul. ie...

Matthew 13:45 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a merchant man, seeking goodly pearls: 13:46 Who, when he had found one pearl of great price, went and sold all that he had, and bought it. So what did the merchant buy? It's like the old merchants term, "it was bought, lock, stock, and barrel". 1st Corinthians 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? 6:20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

1st Corinthians 7:21 Art thou called being a servant? care not for it: but if thou mayest be made free, use it rather. 7:22 For he that is called in the Lord, being a servant, is the Lord's freeman: likewise also he that is called, being free, is Christ's servant. 7:23 Ye are bought with a price; be not ye the servants of men.

In essence, we are not our own, we belong to God. Do you believe God allows the pearls in His treasury to just walk away?

reformedct
Dec 17th 2008, 06:18 PM
everyone seems to be discussing walking away from God

under the old covenant of law, this is very easy
but under the new, it sounds like it would be far more difficult if not impossible

why?

we were bought. Can something bought be unbought?

We were sealed. If a man is sealed in a cave can he "turn from the cave in which he is sealed"?

If something is sealed inside of something its not even an issue of turning. It is an issue of breaking the seal. Is God's Seal so weak that when man sins it disintigrates?

Paul rebuked Peter in the New testament. Did Peter break that seal while he was in the wrong?

A seal is used to protect something of value until it reaches its destination or until a certain time is fulfilled am i right?

people who say they can turn seem to deny this scripture in Jeremiah 32. Now i may be wrong but i believe it is referring to the new covenant:

40 I will make with them an everlasting covenant, that I will not turn away from doing good to them. And I will put the fear of me in their hearts, that they may not turn from me. 41 I will rejoice in doing them good, and I will plant them in this land in faithfulness, with all my heart and all my soul.


So here are the aspects:
1. God will never turn from doing good

2. God will put the fear of Him in their hearts so they MAY NOT TURN FROM HIM (i believe this may not is more like cannot but of course people will argue)

if we say God will put the fear of Him in them, but they will still turn either:
a) God aint that scary
b) God's plan failed cuz whoops they still turned dang it

3. HE WILL PLANT THEM

can a plant get up and walk away lol


MANY WHO TRY TO DISPROVE SECURITY WILL SAY:
"well i will just stick to the scriptures"

that is good, but it is more important that you believe the correct interpretation as well. The devil knows more scripture than any of us. lot of good it does him lol

Jesus says if your eye causes you to sin pluck it out.
How come none of you have done this? Do you not believe the Word of the Holy God?
Yes, but you understand the meaning of the scripture

I believe there is one true correct interpretation for all scripture.

I know we like to say, well that's your opinion, but i believe we should wrestle with this until the truth is found

because either you can lose your salvation or you can't
one view is true one is false

lets keep diggin!


If there is a scripture that proclaims: those whom He justifies He glorifies

your interpretation must not make this scripture false. i believe denying security does just that

for example:

bible says "we are justified by faith not works"

then turns around and says: we are justified by faith and works"

it is not both and the answer is not confusing, because God is not the author of confusion

so we must interpret in a way that is not confusing. If there is confusion, there is false doctrine or lack of knowledge. this does not mean that we understand everything about God, but that which we do understand can be simply explained

This must mean that we are justiied by faith but true faith produces works and therefore we are in that sense justified by faith and works. However the works aren't the grounds of justifiction, they are the evidence of that justification, because to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, to Him it coounts as righteousness.

Simple! No confusion! all scriptures are upheld and the interpretation allows perfect unity

No how confusing is: those whom he justifies he glorifies
: it is impossible to renew them to repentance

Ok those whom God justifies he Glorifies, so if a person cannot be renewed to repentance he cannot be justified

Simple!
from there we can properly interpret scripture

But people who deny security have a vague, confusing sense of how this works and how salvation is lost. They do not even agree among themselves! Some say its by one sin, some say only major sins, some say you can turn away

People who reject eternal security are not even unified with their own "teammates"

People who believe in eternal security offer a biblical, simple and plain interpretation that has no confusion

Samsheep2
Dec 17th 2008, 06:24 PM
Here is where we would differ wholey in the belief of soul security. I believe man can't walk away ProPet. At least not after the price is paid for his soul. ie...
In essence, we are not our own, we belong to God. Do you believe God allows the pearls in His treasury to just walk away?

Very good scriptural analogy my friend;...

Samsheep2
Dec 17th 2008, 06:31 PM
MANY WHO TRY TO DISPROVE SECURITY WILL SAY: "well i will just stick to the scriptures" that is good, but it is more important that you believe the correct interpretation as well. The devil knows more scripture than any of us. lot of good it does him lol. Well said my friend, well said;...


I believe there is one true correct interpretation for all scripture. I know we like to say, well that's your opinion, but i believe we should wrestle with this until the truth is found because either you can lose your salvation or you can't one view is true one is false. Exactly


But people who deny security have a vague, confusing sense of how this works and how salvation is lost. They do not even agree among themselves! Some say its by one sin, some say only major sins, some say you can turn away. People who reject eternal security are not even unified with their own "teammates" People who believe in eternal security offer a biblical, simple and plain interpretation that has no confusion Absolutely, for proof of this I know you not neither do i know anyone else in here but those of 'like precious faith' agree and those who fight us either are young in the LORD, apostate or just full of the devil. Oh, I know that could considered harsh by some but Jesus was more harsh than I will ever be.

Partaker of Christ
Dec 17th 2008, 07:02 PM
God's promise of never leaving us doesn't cover man ever leaving Him does it? God is faithful even if man isn't. That isn't a promise that man will never fall away... just a promise of the faithfulness of God.

Psa 139:7 Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence?
Psa 139:8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.
Psa 139:9 If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea;
Psa 139:10 Even there shall thy hand lead me, and thy right hand shall hold me.
Psa 139:11 If I say, Surely the darkness shall cover me; even the night shall be light about me.
Psa 139:12 Yea, the darkness hideth not from thee; but the night shineth as the day: the darkness and the light are both alike to thee.
Psa 139:13 For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother's womb.

Partaker of Christ
Dec 17th 2008, 07:46 PM
God's promise of never leaving us doesn't cover man ever leaving Him does it? God is faithful even if man isn't. That isn't a promise that man will never fall away... just a promise of the faithfulness of God.

Ken!

I struggle to understand, how anyone thinks that they can just walk away from God?

If we have truly accepted Jesus Christ as our Lord and Saviour, then we are no longer our own, for we have been bought with a price.

I can just hear the free will worshipers.:o We exercised the free will to accept God's gift of grace. We entered into the Covenant promise.

If a man and a woman get married they become one flesh. They exercised their free will to be joined together. If later they decide to separate and get divorced, are they truly divorced?

In their own eyes perhaps the answer is yes, but in God's eyes the answer is no. If in God's eyes they were divorced, then they could not go on and commit adultery. Only death can truly separate them from their vows.

ProjectPeter
Dec 17th 2008, 08:02 PM
Here is where we would differ wholey in the belief of soul security. I believe man can't walk away ProPet. At least not after the price is paid for his soul. ie...

Matthew 13:45 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a merchant man, seeking goodly pearls: 13:46 Who, when he had found one pearl of great price, went and sold all that he had, and bought it. So what did the merchant buy? It's like the old merchants term, "it was bought, lock, stock, and barrel". 1st Corinthians 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? 6:20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

1st Corinthians 7:21 Art thou called being a servant? care not for it: but if thou mayest be made free, use it rather. 7:22 For he that is called in the Lord, being a servant, is the Lord's freeman: likewise also he that is called, being free, is Christ's servant. 7:23 Ye are bought with a price; be not ye the servants of men.

In essence, we are not our own, we belong to God. Do you believe God allows the pearls in His treasury to just walk away?

What would you say the fate of these false teachers would be?

2 Peter 2

1 But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves.
2 And many will follow their sensuality, and because of them the way of the truth will be maligned;
3 and in their greed they will exploit you with false words; their judgment from long ago is not idle, and their destruction is not asleep.
4 For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to pits of darkness, reserved for judgment;
5 and did not spare the ancient world, but preserved Noah, a preacher of righteousness, with seven others, when He brought a flood upon the world of the ungodly;
6 and if He condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to destruction by reducing them to ashes, having made them an example to those who would live ungodly thereafter;
7 and if He rescued righteous Lot, oppressed by the sensual conduct of unprincipled men
8 (for by what he saw and heard that righteous man, while living among them, felt his righteous soul tormented day after day with their lawless deeds),
9 then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from temptation, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment for the day of judgment,
10 and especially those who indulge the flesh in its corrupt desires and despise authority. Daring, self-willed, they do not tremble when they revile angelic majesties,
11 whereas angels who are greater in might and power do not bring a reviling judgment against them before the Lord.
12 But these, like unreasoning animals, born as creatures of instinct to be captured and killed, reviling where they have no knowledge, will in the destruction of those creatures also be destroyed,
13 suffering wrong as the wages of doing wrong. They count it a pleasure to revel in the daytime. They are stains and blemishes, reveling in their deceptions, as they carouse with you,
14 having eyes full of adultery and that never cease from sin, enticing unstable souls, having a heart trained in greed, accursed children;
15 forsaking the right way they have gone astray, having followed the way of Balaam, the son of Beor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness,
16 but he received a rebuke for his own transgression; for a dumb donkey, speaking with a voice of a man, restrained the madness of the prophet.
17 These are springs without water, and mists driven by a storm, for whom the black darkness has been reserved.
18 For speaking out arrogant words of vanity they entice by fleshly desires, by sensuality, those who barely escape from the ones who live in error,
19 promising them freedom while they themselves are slaves of corruption; for by what a man is overcome, by this he is enslaved.
20 For if after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first.
21 For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment delivered to them.
22 It has happened to them according to the true proverb, "A DOG RETURNS TO ITS OWN VOMIT," and, "A sow, after washing, returns to wallowing in the mire."

ProjectPeter
Dec 17th 2008, 08:18 PM
Psa 139:7 Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence?
Psa 139:8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.
Psa 139:9 If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea;
Psa 139:10 Even there shall thy hand lead me, and thy right hand shall hold me.
Psa 139:11 If I say, Surely the darkness shall cover me; even the night shall be light about me.
Psa 139:12 Yea, the darkness hideth not from thee; but the night shineth as the day: the darkness and the light are both alike to thee.
Psa 139:13 For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother's womb.
Psalms 139:19 *¶O that Thou wouldst slay the wicked, O God; Depart from me, therefore, men of bloodshed.
20 *For they speak against Thee wickedly, And Thine enemies take Thy name in vain.
21 *Do I not hate those who hate Thee, O LORD ? And do I not loathe those who rise up against Thee?
22 *I hate them with the utmost hatred; They have become my enemies.
23 *¶Search me, O God, and know my heart; Try me and know my anxious thoughts;
24 *And see if there be any hurtful way in me, And lead me in the everlasting way.

ProjectPeter
Dec 17th 2008, 08:21 PM
Ken!

I struggle to understand, how anyone thinks that they can just walk away from God?

If we have truly accepted Jesus Christ as our Lord and Saviour, then we are no longer our own, for we have been bought with a price.

I can just hear the free will worshipers.:o We exercised the free will to accept God's gift of grace. We entered into the Covenant promise.

If a man and a woman get married they become one flesh. They exercised their free will to be joined together. If later they decide to separate and get divorced, are they truly divorced?

In their own eyes perhaps the answer is yes, but in God's eyes the answer is no. If in God's eyes they were divorced, then they could not go on and commit adultery. Only death can truly separate them from their vows.
What does God say about adultery... physical and spiritual?

Partaker of Christ
Dec 17th 2008, 09:03 PM
Psalms 139:19 *¶O that Thou wouldst slay the wicked, O God; Depart from me, therefore, men of bloodshed.
20 *For they speak against Thee wickedly, And Thine enemies take Thy name in vain.
21 *Do I not hate those who hate Thee, O LORD ? And do I not loathe those who rise up against Thee?
22 *I hate them with the utmost hatred; They have become my enemies.
23 *¶Search me, O God, and know my heart; Try me and know my anxious thoughts;
24 *And see if there be any hurtful way in me, And lead me in the everlasting way.

.......and what?

ProjectPeter
Dec 17th 2008, 09:14 PM
.......and what?
Just figured I'd post some of the end of that Psalms... always liked that one. Really doesn't have much to do with what we're talking about... neither does the part you posted. But figured if we're just going to cut and paste Scripture ... I'd post some Scripture too. ;)

The Parson
Dec 17th 2008, 09:18 PM
What would you say the fate of these false teachers would be?

2 Peter 2

1 But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves.
2 And many will follow their sensuality, and because of them the way of the truth will be maligned;
3 and in their greed they will exploit you with false words; their judgment from long ago is not idle, and their destruction is not asleep.
4 For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to pits of darkness, reserved for judgment;
5 and did not spare the ancient world, but preserved Noah, a preacher of righteousness, with seven others, when He brought a flood upon the world of the ungodly;
6 and if He condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to destruction by reducing them to ashes, having made them an example to those who would live ungodly thereafter;
7 and if He rescued righteous Lot, oppressed by the sensual conduct of unprincipled men
8 (for by what he saw and heard that righteous man, while living among them, felt his righteous soul tormented day after day with their lawless deeds),
9 then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from temptation, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment for the day of judgment,
10 and especially those who indulge the flesh in its corrupt desires and despise authority. Daring, self-willed, they do not tremble when they revile angelic majesties,
11 whereas angels who are greater in might and power do not bring a reviling judgment against them before the Lord.
12 But these, like unreasoning animals, born as creatures of instinct to be captured and killed, reviling where they have no knowledge, will in the destruction of those creatures also be destroyed,
13 suffering wrong as the wages of doing wrong. They count it a pleasure to revel in the daytime. They are stains and blemishes, reveling in their deceptions, as they carouse with you,
14 having eyes full of adultery and that never cease from sin, enticing unstable souls, having a heart trained in greed, accursed children;
15 forsaking the right way they have gone astray, having followed the way of Balaam, the son of Beor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness,
16 but he received a rebuke for his own transgression; for a dumb donkey, speaking with a voice of a man, restrained the madness of the prophet.
17 These are springs without water, and mists driven by a storm, for whom the black darkness has been reserved.
18 For speaking out arrogant words of vanity they entice by fleshly desires, by sensuality, those who barely escape from the ones who live in error,
19 promising them freedom while they themselves are slaves of corruption; for by what a man is overcome, by this he is enslaved.
20 For if after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first.
21 For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment delivered to them.
22 It has happened to them according to the true proverb, "A DOG RETURNS TO ITS OWN VOMIT," and, "A sow, after washing, returns to wallowing in the mire."Actually ProPet, it says they knew the way to righteousness but never says they are condemned to hell. What it does tell me is that this being Blood Bought children of God, they risk the chastisment of God or even worse receiving a "sin unto death".

We have discussed this issue at length and I remember the example story you gave in my front office that evening with Joe. Facts are though I believe with all my heart that there is no sorer thing for a Child of God to hear than the Lord Jesus rebuke at the Bema seat of Christ. The sin unto death isn't a pleasent thing and not something for a Christian to desire. I mean, look at what Paul said for a congregation to do with such a one: 1st Corinthians 5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. 5:6 Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump? 5:7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:

But then again, this is the flesh and the desires thereof that are causing this backslid condition in the first place. It isn't the flesh that's saved, it's the soul.

The Parson
Dec 17th 2008, 09:19 PM
Just figured I'd post some of the end of that Psalms... always liked that one. Really doesn't have much to do with what we're talking about... neither does the part you posted. But figured if we're just going to cut and paste Scripture ... I'd post some Scripture too. ;)That's known as a drive by Bibling. Don't think that's illegal or nuthin...

ProjectPeter
Dec 17th 2008, 09:24 PM
Actually ProPet, it says they knew the way to righteousness but never says they are condemned to hell. What it does tell me is that this being Blood Bought children of God, they risk the chastisment of God or even worse receiving a "sin unto death".

We have discussed this issue at length and I remember the example story you gave in my front office that evening with Joe. Facts are though I believe with all my heart that there is no sorer thing for a Child of God to hear than the Lord Jesus rebuke at the Bema seat of Christ. The sin unto death isn't a pleasent thing and not something for a Christian to desire. I mean, look at what Paul said for a congregation to do with such a one: 1st Corinthians 5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. 5:6 Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump? 5:7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:

But then again, this is the flesh and the desires threrof that are causing this backslid condition in the first place. It isn't the flesh that's saved, it's the soul.

2 Peter 2:1 But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves.
2 And many will follow their sensuality, and because of them the way of the truth will be maligned;
3 and in their greed they will exploit you with false words; their judgment from long ago is not idle, and their destruction is not asleep.
4 For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to pits of darkness, reserved for judgment;
5 and did not spare the ancient world, but preserved Noah, a preacher of righteousness, with seven others, when He brought a flood upon the world of the ungodly;
6 and if He condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to destruction by reducing them to ashes, having made them an example to those who would live ungodly thereafter;
7 and if He rescued righteous Lot, oppressed by the sensual conduct of unprincipled men
8 (for by what he saw and heard that righteous man, while living among them, felt his righteous soul tormented day after day with their lawless deeds),
9 then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from temptation, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment for the day of judgment,
10 and especially those who indulge the flesh in its corrupt desires and despise authority. Daring, self-willed, they do not tremble when they revile angelic majesties,
11 whereas angels who are greater in might and power do not bring a reviling judgment against them before the Lord.
12 But these, like unreasoning animals, born as creatures of instinct to be captured and killed, reviling where they have no knowledge, will in the destruction of those creatures also be destroyed,
13 suffering wrong as the wages of doing wrong. They count it a pleasure to revel in the daytime. They are stains and blemishes, reveling in their deceptions, as they carouse with you,
14 having eyes full of adultery and that never cease from sin, enticing unstable souls, having a heart trained in greed, accursed children;
15 forsaking the right way they have gone astray, having followed the way of Balaam, the son of Beor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness,
16 but he received a rebuke for his own transgression; for a dumb donkey, speaking with a voice of a man, restrained the madness of the prophet.
17 These are springs without water, and mists driven by a storm, for whom the black darkness has been reserved.

Not sure that I know of Scripture that describes heaven in such a way... but sounds a lot like hell eh? ;)

ProjectPeter
Dec 17th 2008, 09:26 PM
That's known as a drive by Bibling. Don't think that's illegal or nuthin...
Gotta love it! Especially a Psalm or two or three or four!

Partaker of Christ
Dec 17th 2008, 09:26 PM
What does God say about adultery... physical and spiritual?

He will not accept it.
So what makes you think, that He will recognise or respect anyone's claim, to having a God given free will to walk away from Him?

Does a true born again believer, have a God given free will to divorce himself from Christ?
How much truth must be distorted to get to this lie?

God hates divorce, full stop.

Partaker of Christ
Dec 17th 2008, 09:28 PM
Just figured I'd post some of the end of that Psalms... always liked that one. Really doesn't have much to do with what we're talking about... neither does the part you posted. But figured if we're just going to cut and paste Scripture ... I'd post some Scripture too. ;)

:lol::lol:

I love it tooo!!

Yukerboy
Dec 17th 2008, 09:33 PM
We were sealed. If a man is sealed in a cave can he "turn from the cave in which he is sealed"?

I have been one of the biggest supporters of Eternal Security, Perseverance of the Saints, Once Saved Always Saved, call it what you will.

However, there is perseverence that is required, that is forced upon a true believer by God. There are those that believe they are saved who are not saved and never were saved as they would not persevere.

Only those that remain with us are of us. Those who "turn away" as Butch says were never of us.

1 John 2:19 They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.

I agree with eternal security in that the true believer will persevere to the end, but I do not agree that everyone of those that have said the "sinner's prayer" are saved and will persevere.

ProjectPeter
Dec 17th 2008, 10:08 PM
He will not accept it.
So what makes you think, that He will recognise or respect anyone's claim, to having a God given free will to walk away from Him?

Does a true born again believer, have a God given free will to divorce himself from Christ?
How much truth must be distorted to get to this lie?

God hates divorce, full stop.Save for sexual immorality. Folks tend to leave that part out. ;) There is ample Scripture that spiritualizes adultery and that's a reality as well. Right?

Yukerboy
Dec 17th 2008, 10:13 PM
Does a true born again believer, have a God given free will to divorce himself from Christ?


Not only that, but it is God who works the will and works of the true believer. Will God make the true believer not believe as the true believer's will is not his own, but God's now?

Excellent point, PoC.

Partaker of Christ
Dec 17th 2008, 10:48 PM
Save for sexual immorality. Folks tend to leave that part out. ;) There is ample Scripture that spiritualizes adultery and that's a reality as well. Right?

It was Moses that granted a certificate, because of the hardness of their hearts.

Now, it was the man who took the wife, and it was the man who could divorce the wife.
So, it is Christ who takes us to be with Him, and it is only He that can divorce us.

Does Jesus Christ have a hard heart?

Butch5
Dec 18th 2008, 12:07 AM
It was Moses that granted a certificate, because of the hardness of their hearts.

Now, it was the man who took the wife, and it was the man who could divorce the wife.
So, it is Christ who takes us to be with Him, and it is only He that can divorce us.

Does Jesus Christ have a hard heart?

Would that be for being unfaithful?

reformedct
Dec 18th 2008, 02:54 AM
this may sound dumb but...

if salvation can be lost...

then i guess i will just live a life of sin and repent at the very end!

No problems for me solves everything! hahah see ya


(that was a joke):rolleyes:

Samsheep2
Dec 18th 2008, 03:04 AM
I have been one of the biggest supporters of Eternal Security, Perseverance of the Saints, Once Saved Always Saved, call it what you will.

However, there is perseverence that is required, that is forced upon a true believer by God. There are those that believe they are saved who are not saved and never were saved as they would not persevere.

Only those that remain with us are of us. Those who "turn away" as Butch says were never of us.

1 John 2:19 They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.

I agree with eternal security in that the true believer will persevere to the end, but I do not agree that everyone of those that have said the "sinner's prayer" are saved and will persevere.
YB, I have no problem with what you say above - none at all.

Butch5
Dec 18th 2008, 03:34 AM
this may sound dumb but...

if salvation can be lost...

then i guess i will just live a life of sin and repent at the very end!

No problems for me solves everything! hahah see ya


(that was a joke):rolleyes:

There is one problem, you don't know when the end is, so you might not be able to repent.

ProjectPeter
Dec 18th 2008, 03:44 AM
It was Moses that granted a certificate, because of the hardness of their hearts.

Now, it was the man who took the wife, and it was the man who could divorce the wife.
So, it is Christ who takes us to be with Him, and it is only He that can divorce us.

Does Jesus Christ have a hard heart?Be careful.

Jeremiah 3:6 ¶Then the LORD said to me in the days of Josiah the king, "Have you seen what faithless Israel did? She went up on every high hill and under every green tree, and she was a harlot there.
7 "And I thought, `After she has done all these things, she will return to Me´; but she did not return, and her treacherous sister Judah saw it.
8 "And I saw that for all the adulteries of faithless Israel, I had sent her away and given her a writ of divorce, yet her treacherous sister Judah did not fear; but she went and was a harlot also.