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Bladers
Dec 15th 2008, 12:24 AM
People say that Jesus did not go to hell, but it says:

Acts 2:27
Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

Ephesians 4:9
Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?

tt1106
Dec 15th 2008, 12:47 AM
What people say that?

Butch5
Dec 15th 2008, 12:47 AM
People say that Jesus did not go to hell, yet but it says:

Acts 2:27
Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

Ephesians 4:9
Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?

Jesus was in hades, hades is distinguished from the lake of fire. Hades is the aobde of the dead. Peter says that He preached to the Spirits while He was there.


1 Peter 3:18-20 ( KJV ) 18For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: 19By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; 20Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

4HeavensSake
Dec 15th 2008, 12:50 AM
People say that Jesus did not go to hell, yet but it says:

Acts 2:27
Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

Ephesians 4:9
Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?

I believe thats what it say's. I know alot of people disagree, if Jesus took our punishment on himself and we deserve hell than I believe this to be the case.

Equipped_4_Love
Dec 15th 2008, 01:43 AM
People say that Jesus did not go to hell, yet but it says:

Acts 2:27
Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

Ephesians 4:9
Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?

Doesn't Peter declare that Christ went and ministered to the spirits in prison?

Sounds to me like He went to hell.

Bladers
Dec 15th 2008, 01:48 AM
What people say that?

a few self righteous heresy hunters that i spoke to...

th1bill
Dec 15th 2008, 08:10 PM
People say that Jesus did not go to hell, but it says:

Acts 2:27
Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

Ephesians 4:9
Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
... The very first lesson on reading the scriptures is to never take them out of their context and when we read the Bible through from "In the beginning" to the final "Amen" or The Revelation we are struck by the truth that every word of the entire Bible is in one context. Next we know from reading our Bibles that Heaven and Hell are places in the Spiritual Realm and for that reason cannot be seen by the natural eye.
... Although it is a popular thought that Hell is in the core of the Earth there is no Biblical reason to believe this and there is a Biblical reason to not believe this tradition. God cannot stand sin and yet every person that has ever sinned and refused to repent and seek after God will be in Hell. It is also true that Heaven will be found on the "new" Earth and the number of people that will reside in Hell is staggering. A couple of years ago I was interested in how many people would be in Hell and dug into the matter. The one estimate I found to be the best thought out was that while we are about six billion strong, in number, today, there seem to be about that same number that have preceded us on the Earth. So if no more were ever born, that would mean that about twelve billion souls with bodies would be contained in the center of the Earth, beneath Heaven. When you consider that after the Rapture and the Tribulation there will be much better than a billion to begin the 1000 year reign of Christ, that number looks like it might exceed 18 billion contained in the core of the earth and that just staggers the mind.
... Now, when I buried my dad and my mother they descended into the bowels of the Earth to await the Second Resurrection. They did not go into Hell and noone other than some of the fallen Angels will ever go there until they stand at the Great White Throne Judgment. With careful and prayerful reading of the latter verses of Matthew 27 we can see that Jesus went from the Cross into Paradise, aka. Abraham's Buxom, to preach to and release the Old Testament Saints;

Mat 27:51 And behold, the veil of the temple was rent in two from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake; and the rocks were rent;
Mat 27:52 and the tombs were opened; and many bodies of the saints that had fallen asleep were raised;
Mat 27:53 and coming forth out of the tombs after his resurrection they entered into the holy city and appeared unto many.

... While I have given you a lot to consider, I pray that this will help you in your quest.

Biastai
Dec 16th 2008, 05:42 AM
Apparently it was an early church belief as Jesus' descent into hell or Hades is confessed in creeds (developed to combat heresy) believed to either have been influenced by the Nicene Council or to have originated in 5th century Gaul. The Roman Catholics, Church of England, Lutheran, and Presbyterian churches still confess it in their creeds. Curiously the Methodists removed it from theirs.

crossnote
Dec 16th 2008, 06:34 AM
I take a middle Lutheran-Reformed position. Jesus went into hell as a Victor proclaiming His victory to the captives (Lutheran); yet suffered hell for us while on the cross (Reformed).

gtyler
Dec 16th 2008, 01:25 PM
'Although it is a popular thought that Hell is in the core of the Earth there is no Biblical reason to believe this and there is a Biblical reason to not believe this tradition'

Dear th1bill,

I believe one of the verses from the Bible which proves the opposite is written in Numbers 16:30: 'But if the LORD make a new thing, and the earth open her mouth, and swallow them up, with all that appertain unto them, and they go down quick into the pit; then ye shall understand that these men have provoked the LORD.' The word 'pit' in the original text (ancient Hebrew) here is 'sheh-ol' which is often used for hell all over the Old Testament. In the New Testament (in ancient Greek) it is 'hades' or 'thanatos'. These words have the same meaning as 'sheh-ol'.

David Taylor
Dec 16th 2008, 07:45 PM
Jesus' body went to the grave.

Sometimes in the earlier form of the language; the grave was interchangeable with hell.

We still carry that notion around today, even though we know it isn't the case; and they are describing two different places.

Where do you tell a child heaven is? Up above....
Where do you tell a child hell is? down below....but it isn't under the ground...that's just where the graves are...thus the old association still holds forward.

Jesus' body went into hell (the grave) for 3 days; then arose.

He however, finished atonement for all men on the cross; (not in the grave or in hell)...when He said, "IT IS FINISHED".

His death paid the price for all sins of all men, past, present, and future who would faithfully believe and trust in Him.

King David of old, born almost a thousand years before Jesus, placed his hope in the resurrection of Christ from the grave.

As for Noahs day and others who died...they had their turn...during the time of their lives. There is no such thing as purgatory, or after-death 2nd chances to belief and be saved. Isaiah said, "Now is the appointed time, Now is the day of salvation". (so did Paul). Noone gets another chance after their deaths. Just like Jesus told us in the parable of the rich man, who wanted to be saved after his own death; prior to Christ's death. Jesus told him it was too late; the great uncrossable gulf had been fixed at the moment of death; and those who were wicked only have torment and remorse. Not a second chance post-death for salvation.

ProjectPeter
Dec 16th 2008, 11:03 PM
a few self righteous heresy hunters that i spoke to...
TBN still tossing around that "heresy hunters" line? :lol:

keck553
Dec 16th 2008, 11:12 PM
Doesn't Peter declare that Christ went and ministered to the spirits in prison?

Sounds to me like He went to hell.

There is a distinction between imprisoned spirits and spirits in prison. Yeshua told the thief "Today you will be with me in Gan-Eden." Yeshua preached the Gospel to both the saints in Gan-Eden and to the 'bad guys.' Everyone gets the Gospel. When Yeshua said no one comes to the Father but through Me, He meant it for all who were, who are and who are to be. No one goes anywhere, either to the Father or to 'hell' until they recieve the Gospel. Great news for some, really really bad news for others. All knees will bow. That includes the deceased.

crossnote
Dec 17th 2008, 06:19 AM
There is a distinction between imprisoned spirits and spirits in prison. Yeshua told the thief "Today you will be with me in Gan-Eden." Yeshua preached the Gospel to both the saints in Gan-Eden and to the 'bad guys.' Everyone gets the Gospel. When Yeshua said no one comes to the Father but through Me, He meant it for all who were, who are and who are to be. No one goes anywhere, either to the Father or to 'hell' until they recieve the Gospel. Great news for some, really really bad news for others. All knees will bow. That includes the deceased.

Are you saying the 'bad guys' get the Gospel preached to them as a chance to receive the Gospel? It seems to me that would contradict Hebrews 9 "For it is appointed for man to die once and then the judgment". Besides, who wouldn't choose the Gospel and Jesus after spending time in Hades?

joztok
Dec 17th 2008, 01:20 PM
I take a middle Lutheran-Reformed position. Jesus went into hell as a Victor proclaiming His victory to the captives (Lutheran); yet suffered hell for us while on the cross (Reformed).

Does that mean he suffered hell on behalf of Satan? Don't know why I suddenly thought that. Sounds like a reasonable question though.

For the grave it would only be for us. It makes sense that he died for us so that our shed blood can be united with His shed blood so that all may be awaken at appropriate times. But for the second death, that was never meant to be for us but for Satan and his angels.

Firefighter
Dec 17th 2008, 02:04 PM
I believe thats what it say's. I know alot of people disagree, if Jesus took our punishment on himself and we deserve hell than I believe this to be the case.

Not true. Jesus said "It is finished." right before he died. Scholars have found the exact saying that he used at the bottom of payment records of old. It is translated there as "Paid in Full." If it was finished at His death at Calvary, why then would He need to do anything else?

Was Jesus unaware that He had something else to do?

Firefighter
Dec 17th 2008, 02:06 PM
TBN still tossing around that "heresy hunters" line? :lol:


:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

divaD
Dec 17th 2008, 02:23 PM
But for the second death, that was never meant to be for us but for
Satan and his angels


Where does it state that in Scriptures? The second death applies to man, not satan and his angels. In order for it to apply to satan and his angels, there would have to be a first death. Can't have a second death without a first death. Where does it state in Scriptures that satan or any of his angels have ever died?

Emanate
Dec 17th 2008, 07:57 PM
'Although it is a popular thought that Hell is in the core of the Earth there is no Biblical reason to believe this and there is a Biblical reason to not believe this tradition'

Dear th1bill,

I believe one of the verses from the Bible which proves the opposite is written in Numbers 16:30: 'But if the LORD make a new thing, and the earth open her mouth, and swallow them up, with all that appertain unto them, and they go down quick into the pit; then ye shall understand that these men have provoked the LORD.' The word 'pit' in the original text (ancient Hebrew) here is 'sheh-ol' which is often used for hell all over the Old Testament. In the New Testament (in ancient Greek) it is 'hades' or 'thanatos'. These words have the same meaning as 'sheh-ol'.


Actually, Sheol means grave. It literally means that someone is dead and in the grave. Christian interpretation renders it so some place where souls go for punishment.

Lee-Roy
Dec 17th 2008, 11:50 PM
I've never heard anyone mention Christ going to hell before. Unusual train of thought :)

theBelovedDisciple
Dec 18th 2008, 12:24 AM
Where does it state that in Scriptures? The second death applies to man, not satan and his angels. In order for it to apply to satan and his angels, there would have to be a first death. Can't have a second death without a first death. Where does it state in Scriptures that satan or any of his angels have ever died?
----------------------------------------------------------------

The Lake of Fire, i.e. everlasting fire... is what God has prepared for the devil and his angels.. this will be their eternal abode.. I find no Scripture that tells us that angels have 'died' ... the second death for the human that is damned is 'everlasting fire'.. ie the Lake of Fire.. Jesus refers to these as the 'goats' , 'tares' etc...the wicked... those whose names are not found in the Lamb's Book of Life... Listen to His words here..

Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, 'into' everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet [are], and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.


And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were 'cast' 'alive' into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.


It's clear from Scripture here that the devil and his angels along with those whose names are NOT found in the Lamb's Book of Life will have their eternal abode together.. these along with the Anti christ and false prophet who were put there personally by Jesus the Christ at His 2nd Advent...

And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Romber
Dec 18th 2008, 12:35 AM
http://www.av1611.org/hell.html

Since it has been brought up a couple times as center of Earth as location of hell, the link is fitting. Scripturally, I don't know very much in regards to the idea of hell and Jesus so I can't be accounted for the content on the site. However, the webpage is interesting and at least worth a read.

divaD
Dec 18th 2008, 12:46 AM
----------------------------------------------------------------

The Lake of Fire, i.e. everlasting fire... is what God has prepared for the devil and his angels.. this will be their eternal abode.. I find no Scripture that tells us that angels have 'died' ... the second death for the human that is damned is 'everlasting fire'.. ie the Lake of Fire.. Jesus refers to these as the 'goats' , 'tares' etc...the wicked... those whose names are not found in the Lamb's Book of Life... Listen to His words here..

Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, 'into' everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet [are], and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.


And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were 'cast' 'alive' into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.


It's clear from Scripture here that the devil and his angels along with those whose names are NOT found in the Lamb's Book of Life will have their eternal abode together.. these along with the Anti christ and false prophet who were put there personally by Jesus the Christ at His 2nd Advent...

And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.



Actually, this really wasn't the issue. The poster claimed that the 2nd death was originally prepared for the devil and his angels. How can that be true if there was never a first death? As far as man is concerned, we know that there is a first death. So the 2nd death makes sense in relation to that,

But how does it make sense in relation to the devil and his angels? How could it be the 2nd death for them when there was never a first death?. Even tho some men will end up in the same lake of fire, the Bible is obviously teaching 2 different types of punishments.

Butch5
Dec 18th 2008, 12:56 AM
Not true. Jesus said "It is finished." right before he died. Scholars have found the exact saying that he used at the bottom of payment records of old. It is translated there as "Paid in Full." If it was finished at His death at Calvary, why then would He need to do anything else?

Was Jesus unaware that He had something else to do?

What was finished?

Didn't he have to rise from the dead in order for us to?

crossnote
Dec 18th 2008, 06:23 AM
Does that mean he suffered hell on behalf of Satan? Don't know why I suddenly thought that. Sounds like a reasonable question though.

For the grave it would only be for us. It makes sense that he died for us so that our shed blood can be united with His shed blood so that all may be awaken at appropriate times. But for the second death, that was never meant to be for us but for Satan and his angels.

He only suffered hell on behalf of man since He took on our human nature in the incarnation. He did not take on the nature of angels either good or fallen ones.

Bladers
Dec 26th 2008, 04:24 PM
----------------------------------------------------------------

The Lake of Fire, i.e. everlasting fire... is what God has prepared for the devil and his angels.. this will be their eternal abode.. I find no Scripture that tells us that angels have 'died' ... the second death for the human that is damned is 'everlasting fire'.. ie the Lake of Fire.. Jesus refers to these as the 'goats' , 'tares' etc...the wicked... those whose names are not found in the Lamb's Book of Life... Listen to His words here..

Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, 'into' everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet [are], and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.


And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were 'cast' 'alive' into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.


It's clear from Scripture here that the devil and his angels along with those whose names are NOT found in the Lamb's Book of Life will have their eternal abode together.. these along with the Anti christ and false prophet who were put there personally by Jesus the Christ at His 2nd Advent...

And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Hell is different from the lake of fire

Acts 2:27
Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

Ephesians 4:9
Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?

1 Peter 3:18-20 ( KJV ) 18For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: 19By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; 20Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

How do you explain these scriptures?

Psalms Fan
Dec 26th 2008, 08:30 PM
I believe that the KJV's translation of sheol into "hell" is completely unwarranted. The Hebrew word "sheol" means things like "pit", "grave", "abode of the dead". When reading the OT (especially the psalms), their understanding was that when a person died, the person was just "gone" until the resurrection.

For instance, Psalm 6
"For in death there is no remembrance of you. In sheol who will give you praise?"

Or Psalm 30
"What profit is there in my death, if I go down to sheol? Will the dust praise you; will it tell of your faithfulness?"

There is no reason to read a doctrine of "hell" into the word sheol.

When the Jews translated the scriptures into Greek, they chose to render the word "sheol" as "hades", since that was the best Greek equivalent. And when the NT writers use the word "hades", they are referring back to the Greek translation of "sheol". So the hades and sheol ought to be considered one and the same thing.

Now when Paul quotes Psalm 16 (for you will not abandon my soul to hades or let your holy one see corruption), there is no reason to read a doctrine of "hell" into that, since it is a quote from the Hebrew, which has the word "sheol" (hades being the same thing).

So that quote doesn't teach that Jesus went to "hell". Rather, it says that He died.

1 Peter says that Jesus was put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit, by which He preached to the spirits in prison. He says that those spirits were, at one time, disobedient, when God's patience waited in the days of Noah.

This does not necessarily say that Jesus went to "prison" to preach to them. Rather, he preached to them in the Spirit, and they are now in prison. In the days of Noah, Christ preached to those people through the mouth of Noah. Since the Spirit who preached through Noah is Christ's Spirit, we can say that Christ preached to those people. They are now in prison, since they died thousands of years before that.

It's kind of like if I were to say that I went fishing with my dead grandpa. He's dead NOW, but he wasn't when I was a little boy.

So I see no reason to think that the Bible teaches us that Christ went to "hell". Rather, as another poster said, when Christ was on the cross, he said, in accordance with Psalm 22, "It is finished" (the Greek word there is the same word that the LXX has as the closing line of Psalm 22).

theBelovedDisciple
Dec 26th 2008, 11:02 PM
Actually, this really wasn't the issue. The poster claimed that the 2nd death was originally prepared for the devil and his angels. How can that be true if there was never a first death? As far as man is concerned, we know that there is a first death. So the 2nd death makes sense in relation to that,

But how does it make sense in relation to the devil and his angels? How could it be the 2nd death for them when there was never a first death?. Even tho some men will end up in the same lake of fire, the Bible is obviously teaching 2 different types of punishments.
------------------------------------------------------

The 2nd death refers only to the human soul/ human being..... I made no mention of angels dying the first death.. The Bible doesnt either... I made it clear that the Lake of Fire burning with fire and brimstone.. is the 2nd death for those who are damned.. it is the eternal abode for those 'damned'.. as it is for the devil and his angels...

The devil and his angels are supernatural beings whom God has prounounced judgement upon and they're eternal abode will be the Lake of Fire, burning with fire and brimstone.... as will the damned.. this is the 2nd death for those who are damned.

At the end.. hell itself is even cast into it.. the Lake of Fire burning with fire and brimstone... and even death itself.. and those found not in the Lamb's Book of Life..

hell and the Lake of Fire are two different things.. if they arent then how would one be tossed into the other one...

Even 'death' is going to be done away. with... and it will be cast into the Lake of Fire.. so that it is but a faded memory.. it will be 'no more'.....

How did death lose its power or Victory? One needs only to look to that Bloody Tree and examine what took place there and to look upon the One who hung on it.. the Only True Living God who is Jesus the Christ, God 'MANIFEST IN THE FLESH'.....

After Death is cast into the Lake of Fire burning with fire and brimstone and is no more...

Then one can say.. O Death O death... where is thy Victory? where is they sting?

The Truth is that it will be 'no more'..

Bob Carabbio
Dec 26th 2008, 11:22 PM
CONTROVERSIAL:

This or that religious group have been warring over what happened AFTER Jesus died, and before he was resurrected, for millennia.

Personally, I think that Ps 88 is "messianic" in nature, and pictures Jesus forsaken (temporarily) in hell. But God didn't LEAVE Him there, of course - since he was innocent of ALL sin.

SOME say that He only went to Abraham's Bosom for (what we experienced as) three days and three nights.

Ken Copeland has a silly "burlesque" fantasy of Jesus being dragged into hell and tormented by gleeful demons - EXCEPT THAT only GOD can cast into hell, and neither demons NOR satan have probably ever been within 1000 miles if hell, which ISN'T their "kingdom" - only their place of punishment until it and everybody in it gets tossed into the lake of fire.

monergist
Dec 31st 2008, 09:52 PM
People say that Jesus did not go to hell, but it says:

Acts 2:27
Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

Ephesians 4:9
Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?

This is an awesome question. I think we need to think about what we mean when we say, "Jesus DIED on the cross." Do we mean only Jesus' body died? Or, do we mean that the Son of God, the second person of the trinity, died?

What is death in scripture? It's not ceasing to exist. If the wages of sin is death, and Jesus took the wrath of God upon himself (being hell), then he descended into hell. If Christ didn't do that, then we need to throw out the entire idea of substitutionary, vicarious, atonement, and we can't do that because that is the gospel. Jesus came to die for our sins.

God bless.

CactusCarlos
Jan 1st 2009, 09:13 AM
I'd like to share a verse I encountered this evening


Matthew 12:40For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

"Heart of the earth" implies a deep place, doesn't it? I'm not versed very well in using the Blue Letter Bible (http://www.blueletterbible.org) but could someone here who is provide some insight?

David Taylor
Jan 1st 2009, 01:15 PM
I'd like to share a verse I encountered this evening



"Heart of the earth" implies a deep place, doesn't it? I'm not versed very well in using the Blue Letter Bible (http://www.blueletterbible.org) but could someone here who is provide some insight?
Jesus is prophesying of his death and his body being in the tomb, similarily to how Jonah was in the whale for 3 days.

th1bill
Jan 1st 2009, 05:37 PM
'Although it is a popular thought that Hell is in the core of the Earth there is no Biblical reason to believe this and there is a Biblical reason to not believe this tradition'

Dear th1bill,

I believe one of the verses from the Bible which proves the opposite is written in Numbers 16:30: 'But if the LORD make a new thing, and the earth open her mouth, and swallow them up, with all that appertain unto them, and they go down quick into the pit; then ye shall understand that these men have provoked the LORD.' The word 'pit' in the original text (ancient Hebrew) here is 'sheh-ol' which is often used for hell all over the Old Testament. In the New Testament (in ancient Greek) it is 'hades' or 'thanatos'. These words have the same meaning as 'sheh-ol'.
... I apologize for being so slow to return for this post but I became very distracted.
... In my reading of the scriptures I have learned that no man will enter into Hell before the second resurrection. For this reason I have prayed and studied on the matter and have been led by the Spirit of God to understand that the pit these persons fall into as just that, a hole or a pit to keep their bodies until the second resurrection. Please try not to think me brash or uppity but the Bible, all of it contains one message and for that reason no single passage should ever be extracted and a doctrine formed from that scripture. The LORD has taught me that every word of the Bible reflects upon every other word ther in.

th1bill
Jan 1st 2009, 05:42 PM
Are you saying the 'bad guys' get the Gospel preached to them as a chance to receive the Gospel? It seems to me that would contradict Hebrews 9 "For it is appointed for man to die once and then the judgment". Besides, who wouldn't choose the Gospel and Jesus after spending time in Hades?
... Actually Keck is on center. Before Jesus came into the world nobody had heard the gospel and the Old Testament Saints had not entry into Heaven until He arrived there to preach and to free them to go to Heaven.

mikebr
Jan 2nd 2009, 03:20 AM
18For Christ also suffered for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, in order to bring you to God. He was put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit, 19in which also he went and made a proclamation to the spirits in prison, 20who in former times did not obey, when God waited patiently in the days of Noah, during the building of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were saved through water. 1 Peter 3:18-20 NRSV

For this is the reason the gospel was proclaimed even to the dead, so that, though they had been judged in the flesh as everyone is judged, they might live in the spirit as God does. 1 Peter 4:6 NRSV

mikebr
Jan 2nd 2009, 03:22 AM
Many Early Church fathers taught that Christ descended to hell with the gospel according to 1 Peter 3:18-20, 4:6. Second and Third Century Church fathers teaching the descent to hell with the gospel included Polycarp of Smyrna, Ignatius of Antioch, Hermas, Justin, Melito of Sardis, Hyppolytus of Rome, Irenaeus of Lyons, Clement of Alexandria, and Origen. Fourth Century Eastern Church Fathers teaching the descent to hell with the gospel included Athanasius, Basil the Great, Gregory of Nyssa, Gregory Nazianzen, John Chrysostom, Jacob Aphrahat, and Ephrem the Syrian. Later Eastern Church Fathers teaching the descent to hell included Cyril of Alexandria, Maximus the confessor, and John Damascene. These patristic authors agreed that Christ delivered the gospel to hell between his death and resurrection. The only dispute among them was if Christ preached the gospel to all the dead or only a particular category of the dead such as those imprisoned from the days of Noah or the Old Testament believers.

Copyright 2007, 2008 James Edward Goetz

shawn_2828
Feb 10th 2009, 02:47 AM
People say that Jesus did not go to hell, but it says:

Acts 2:27
Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

Ephesians 4:9
Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?

Yes, Jesus went to hell and snached the keys of the Kingdom back from satan. Jesus is God and can go where ever he wants to go.

CommanderRobey
Feb 10th 2009, 03:18 AM
... The very first lesson on reading the scriptures is to never take them out of their context and when we read the Bible through from "In the beginning" to the final "Amen" or The Revelation we are struck by the truth that every word of the entire Bible is in one context. Next we know from reading our Bibles that Heaven and Hell are places in the Spiritual Realm and for that reason cannot be seen by the natural eye.
... Although it is a popular thought that Hell is in the core of the Earth there is no Biblical reason to believe this and there is a Biblical reason to not believe this tradition. God cannot stand sin and yet every person that has ever sinned and refused to repent and seek after God will be in Hell. It is also true that Heaven will be found on the "new" Earth and the number of people that will reside in Hell is staggering. A couple of years ago I was interested in how many people would be in Hell and dug into the matter. The one estimate I found to be the best thought out was that while we are about six billion strong, in number, today, there seem to be about that same number that have preceded us on the Earth. So if no more were ever born, that would mean that about twelve billion souls with bodies would be contained in the center of the Earth, beneath Heaven. When you consider that after the Rapture and the Tribulation there will be much better than a billion to begin the 1000 year reign of Christ, that number looks like it might exceed 18 billion contained in the core of the earth and that just staggers the mind.
... Now, when I buried my dad and my mother they descended into the bowels of the Earth to await the Second Resurrection. They did not go into Hell and noone other than some of the fallen Angels will ever go there until they stand at the Great White Throne Judgment. With careful and prayerful reading of the latter verses of Matthew 27 we can see that Jesus went from the Cross into Paradise, aka. Abraham's Buxom, to preach to and release the Old Testament Saints;

Mat 27:51 And behold, the veil of the temple was rent in two from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake; and the rocks were rent;
Mat 27:52 and the tombs were opened; and many bodies of the saints that had fallen asleep were raised;
Mat 27:53 and coming forth out of the tombs after his resurrection they entered into the holy city and appeared unto many.

... While I have given you a lot to consider, I pray that this will help you in your quest.


Since Jesus descended into the 'belly of the earth,' and Paul declares that paradise is in the third heaven (2 Corinthians 12:2-4), one can safely say that Abraham's bosom is not, nor ever was... paradise.

As to the word 'hell' throughout the Word of God, it has many meanings. Notice Lazarus in Chapter 16 did not go to hell... he was carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom. The rich man was in hell, being tormented until the time that God calls the wicked dead to stand before Him for the final judgment.

Jesus declares hell to be a place of everlasting torment. This means that the whole time one is in hell until the final judgment, that one is going to be tormented. God's people will not suffer torment, so they cannot be going to hell. Their destination is in a place separate from hell.

CommanderRobey
Feb 10th 2009, 03:18 AM
Yes, Jesus went to hell and snached the keys of the Kingdom back from satan. Jesus is God and can go where ever he wants to go.
There is not one Scripture in the Word of God that says Jesus snatched the keys of the Kingdom from satan.

CommanderRobey
Feb 10th 2009, 03:23 AM
... I apologize for being so slow to return for this post but I became very distracted.
... In my reading of the scriptures I have learned that no man will enter into Hell before the second resurrection. For this reason I have prayed and studied on the matter and have been led by the Spirit of God to understand that the pit these persons fall into as just that, a hole or a pit to keep their bodies until the second resurrection. Please try not to think me brash or uppity but the Bible, all of it contains one message and for that reason no single passage should ever be extracted and a doctrine formed from that scripture. The LORD has taught me that every word of the Bible reflects upon every other word ther in.


Revelation 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

Clearly, the pit/hell is not a place of rest. As a matter of fact, Jesus said of it that it is a place 'where the worm dieth not and the fire is not quenched.'

chad
Feb 10th 2009, 03:39 AM
Not from Satan, but there is this verse.

(Rev 1:18 NIV) I am the Living One; I was dead, and behold I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades.



There is not one Scripture in the Word of God that says Jesus snatched the keys of the Kingdom from satan.

CommanderRobey
Feb 10th 2009, 04:04 AM
Not from Satan, but there is this verse.

(Rev 1:18 NIV) I am the Living One; I was dead, and behold I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades.
That verse still does not say that Jesus took the keys from Satan. It only states that Jesus 'has' the keys.

danezal
Feb 10th 2009, 04:07 AM
I believe that the KJV's translation of sheol into "hell" is completely unwarranted. The Hebrew word "sheol" means things like "pit", "grave", "abode of the dead". When reading the OT (especially the psalms), their understanding was that when a person died, the person was just "gone" until the resurrection.

For instance, Psalm 6
"For in death there is no remembrance of you. In sheol who will give you praise?"

Or Psalm 30
"What profit is there in my death, if I go down to sheol? Will the dust praise you; will it tell of your faithfulness?"

There is no reason to read a doctrine of "hell" into the word sheol.

When the Jews translated the scriptures into Greek, they chose to render the word "sheol" as "hades", since that was the best Greek equivalent. And when the NT writers use the word "hades", they are referring back to the Greek translation of "sheol". So the hades and sheol ought to be considered one and the same thing.

Now when Paul quotes Psalm 16 (for you will not abandon my soul to hades or let your holy one see corruption), there is no reason to read a doctrine of "hell" into that, since it is a quote from the Hebrew, which has the word "sheol" (hades being the same thing).

So that quote doesn't teach that Jesus went to "hell". Rather, it says that He died.

1 Peter says that Jesus was put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit, by which He preached to the spirits in prison. He says that those spirits were, at one time, disobedient, when God's patience waited in the days of Noah.

This does not necessarily say that Jesus went to "prison" to preach to them. Rather, he preached to them in the Spirit, and they are now in prison. In the days of Noah, Christ preached to those people through the mouth of Noah. Since the Spirit who preached through Noah is Christ's Spirit, we can say that Christ preached to those people. They are now in prison, since they died thousands of years before that.

It's kind of like if I were to say that I went fishing with my dead grandpa. He's dead NOW, but he wasn't when I was a little boy.

So I see no reason to think that the Bible teaches us that Christ went to "hell". Rather, as another poster said, when Christ was on the cross, he said, in accordance with Psalm 22, "It is finished" (the Greek word there is the same word that the LXX has as the closing line of Psalm 22).

nicely stated. good job

danezal

james1965
Feb 10th 2009, 04:37 AM
Excellent post by Psalms fan. One other thing that we might take note of. The word "hell" is an old english word and properly it meant a "hole" or "grave". When translating the books into English translators were held to very strict standards, such as 'letter for letter'. Although a word that was synonymous with the idea put forth by Dante's book the Divine Comedy it by definition was ideally the correct word to use. Our confusion comes from a word that is associated with an eternal place full of demons, fire and ever burning souls that is deep down under the earth. The english word hell is just a hole in the ground. An example would be that of early 17th century --- The Irish would put thier potatoes in hell to keep for the winter.

Psalms Fan
Feb 10th 2009, 05:08 AM
Excellent post by Psalms fan. One other thing that we might take note of. The word "hell" is an old english word and properly it meant a "hole" or "grave". When translating the books into English translators were held to very strict standards, such as 'letter for letter'. Although a word that was synonymous with the idea put forth by Dante's book the Divine Comedy it by definition was ideally the correct word to use. Our confusion comes from a word that is associated with an eternal place full of demons, fire and ever burning souls that is deep down under the earth. The english word hell is just a hole in the ground. An example would be that of early 17th century --- The Irish would put thier potatoes in hell to keep for the winter.

The word "hall" comes from the same source as "hell" (and possibly "hole"; I'd have to look into that one).

I believe that the doctrine of "hell" is far too elaborate than what Scripture allows for. I think that people tend to read the Lake of Fire into the OT concept of Sheol (and other NT words as well).

I agree with James1965. When the word "hell" is properly understood, I have no issue with it. What I have issue with is all the theological baggage associated with it. If we can understand "hell" the same way the Israelite's understood "sheol", then by all means, use the word "hell". But I doubt that that will ever happen on any kind of large scale. So I just like to avoid it altogether, lest someone misunderstand me and think I mean something that I don't by the word "hell".

shawn_2828
Feb 16th 2009, 01:32 PM
That verse still does not say that Jesus took the keys from Satan. It only states that Jesus 'has' the keys.

So, do you think that satan gave Jesus the keys up willingly?