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kenrank
Dec 15th 2008, 06:31 AM
Greetings all. This subject came up in another thread and I thought it would make a good thread on it's own merit.

In the congregation I attend, a very close knit group of 50 when everyone shows up, we have a family of 6 that comes nearly every week. (They have to drive an hour and a half each way to get there, so they don't come every week) The parents, we can call them Bob and Jane, 35ish, deny that Yahushua (Jesus) is the Messiah. They do not deny a Messiah, but they deny Jesus as Messiah. Believing instead, that he has yet to come.

So my question is, would YOU let them attend your church?

Peace.
Ken

brant
Dec 15th 2008, 06:58 AM
i think its very strange that they are attending a christian church if they dont believe Jesus is the Christ, but they should be allowed to come to your church regardless. if they are preaching their beliefs, no they should not be allowed there. the bible warns us not to accept any teaching other than the gospel thats already been taught. but if they are coming to listen, i would let them, but keep a close eye on them, and pray that God would open their eyes to the truth.

crossnote
Dec 15th 2008, 07:00 AM
I would let them attend so long as they understand that they are not to proselytyze in secret. They sound like a Jewish sect of sorts and it seems strange that they would travel 150 mi. to a congregation that teaches fundamentally different than what they hold to.
I would let them stay under those conditions for who knows what the Holy Spirit and His preached Word will do to listening ears.

markedward
Dec 15th 2008, 07:36 AM
The parents, we can call them Bob and Jane, 35ish, deny that Yahushua (Jesus) is the Messiah. They do not deny a Messiah, but they deny Jesus as Messiah. Believing instead, that he has yet to come.

So my question is, would YOU let them attend your church?If I was in charge of a church, I would let them attend, no problem. I would not allow them to take any sort of position in which they would have recognized teaching/leading authority. That means no preaching on church grounds, no leading Bible study groups under church direction, no ministry trips, etc. Basically, anything on behalf of my church in which they would have a chance to teach or lead other people to believe that Jesus is not the Messiah. If they choose to organize a Bible study in their own home and invite my church's members to go to it, I can't stop any of them from doing this. But if I was in the position of head-leader of my church, I wouldn't allow them to be in any situation in which they would be leading or teaching other people who were attending the church.

Otherwise, it would be perfectly good for them to attend the church, ask questions, listen to the sermons, take part in activities, etc.

godsgirl
Dec 15th 2008, 12:33 PM
Isn't that part of your churches mission? To share Christ with non-believers? Of course they should be permitted to attend-but like the above poster said, no positions of authority in the church and no membership-that means no voting rights or say in what goes on. Share Christ with them in every way.

Firstfruits
Dec 15th 2008, 12:42 PM
Greetings all. This subject came up in another thread and I thought it would make a good thread on it's own merit.

In the congregation I attend, a very close knit group of 50 when everyone shows up, we have a family of 6 that comes nearly every week. (They have to drive an hour and a half each way to get there, so they don't come every week) The parents, we can call them Bob and Jane, 35ish, deny that Yahushua (Jesus) is the Messiah. They do not deny a Messiah, but they deny Jesus as Messiah. Believing instead, that he has yet to come.

So my question is, would YOU let them attend your church?

Peace.
Ken

If they are allowed to come, are they aware of the dangers of denying Christ before men?

Mt 10:33 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=10&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=33) But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.

Are they also aware that to deny Christ means to deny God the Father?

God bless you!

Firstfruits

ServantofTruth
Dec 15th 2008, 01:07 PM
Everyone should be allowed to attend a church. However i feel slightly differently to previous posters.

Where i agree firstly - is obviously they should be given no position within the churches authority, by this i don't just mean in services and teaching, but also no position in social activities. They may assist in social activities, but never lead anything.

Also it must be made clear at the begining, that should they be found at any time promoting/ argueing their point of view, to be encouraging others to think in a non Christian way - they will be asked to leave the church for good. They may attend and ask questions, that is all.

My main difference with those who have replied so far - is i think i would put a time limit on things, with regular reviews between the church leaders and this family. Each time asking why they wish to attend and whether they feel they are growing in knowledge and closer to a 'Christian' understanding.

My reason for this is that they can never be church members, or even associate members if they are not Christians. If their stated aim is not to learn and genuinely seek Jesus Christ - then they have no place in any church until that is their aim.

At first a non christian position is OK as like all non believers they are hearing the gospel and mixing with believers - so even if they state they will oppose the churches' position privately let them come and welcome them. For a few weeks or months, a year? - allow them to continue to hold this position telling them, there will come a time when this position is no longer acceptable. For me i think about a year seems fair.

I doubt if a family with opposing views could keep them to themselves that long. If they try privately promoting their views they will be asked to leave immediatly anyway. If they don't they have a year to show even the slightest interest in learning. It will be a danger having them around and the authority of the church should probably speak to all church members when they are not around warning them of the danger and asking them to imform the leaders should they ever be approached and have opposing views expresses. Also not to socialise outside of church events with leadship members present.

A very differcult topic and i feel it is good that we are discussing it. I look forward to hearing the views of pastors/ ministers and our senior members/ moderators, anyone in church authority. I certainly feel i may have missed a piece of the puzzle in my answer here. :hmm: SofTy.

mikebr
Dec 15th 2008, 01:15 PM
Has anyone invited them to an intense personal private study of scripture?

Ta-An
Dec 15th 2008, 01:15 PM
Christ came for the lost :idea: They are lost without Him, draw them to the Light by the revelation in the knowledge of the glory of Yeshua as Messiah :hug:

Gregg
Dec 15th 2008, 01:18 PM
I would allow them to come. I would also ask them not to preach/teach their beliefs. I would encourage that they ask questions. I would also allow them to express their beliefs in Bible study with the idea that these will be challenged in line with Christian beliefs. How are they supposed to learn if we do not allow them in? There must me a reason they would travel so far to be with you. Maybe they feel the presence of Jesus Christ when they come to your church?

matthew7and1
Dec 15th 2008, 01:48 PM
Has anyone invited them to an intense personal private study of scripture?
Great point. Also, I pretty much agree with the variations of the same opinion expressed here. It's important to reach out to non-believers, but in the mean time, they shouldn't be teaching against Jesus.

VerticalReality
Dec 15th 2008, 01:49 PM
A little caution because . . .

A little leaven leavens the whole lump. They need to be told the truth. However, if they reject the truth and do not want to accept what the gospel says then they do not need to be part of that particular body. If they do not believe in Christ then they are not part of His body at all, so why would it be a good idea to let them and their beliefs that are of the devil hang around to influence the rest of the church? Especially those who are young in the Lord and do not know the truth very well yet themselves . . .

militarywife
Dec 15th 2008, 02:05 PM
Isn't that part of your churches mission? To share Christ with non-believers? Of course they should be permitted to attend-but like the above poster said, no positions of authority in the church and no membership-that means no voting rights or say in what goes on. Share Christ with them in every way.

I agree. We are here to share Christ with non believers and to above all Love.
:hug:

kenrank
Dec 15th 2008, 02:13 PM
Has anyone invited them to an intense personal private study of scripture?

I want to respond to all...but I wanted to cover this firrst. Great question Mike. The answer is, no. I brought the same question (worded differently) to our congregation leader, teacher, pastor...whatever word fits best. He said, "no," to which I ask, "why." He smiled and said, "they haven't asked yet."

He didn't have to tell me anymore, I understood. The true witness isn't our words, it is our life. That isn't to say we shouldn't speak....but when somebody has not asked a question yet, our answer will do no good. You know what I mean? We have to be seeking in order to find, they are not seeking...though they do seem to be changing, starting to ask some questions, making statements that 6 months ago would not have been made. It has been most enjoyable to watch!!!

Peace.
Ken

kenrank
Dec 15th 2008, 02:21 PM
To all....

I must say that your responses have been spirit filled scripturally balanced responses. We let them come because quite simply, they want to be there. They do not teach, though we have asked them to open or close for us in prayer...after all, we serve the same God.

You might be wondering why they come. Our congregation is made up of Christians who study the Hebrew Roots of our faith. In other words, in general we believe what everyone else does, but we keep the Feasts of God (Passover, Tabernacles, etc.) Sabbath, and a few other practices not generally kept in most Christian churches. Since they believe in following Torah, I guess we are the closest in distance and belief to them. So they come.

But I have another question for you all....is not believing in Jesus as Messiah a sin?

Peace.
Ken

Gregg
Dec 15th 2008, 02:25 PM
I want to respond to all...but I wanted to cover this firrst. Great question Mike. The answer is, no. I brought the same question (worded differently) to our congregation leader, teacher, pastor...whatever word fits best. He said, "no," to which I ask, "why." He smiled and said, "they haven't asked yet."

He didn't have to tell me anymore, I understood. The true witness isn't our words, it is our life. That isn't to say we shouldn't speak....but when somebody has not asked a question yet, our answer will do no good. You know what I mean? We have to be seeking in order to find, they are not seeking...though they do seem to be changing, starting to ask some questions, making statements that 6 months ago would not have been made. It has been most enjoyable to watch!!!

Peace.
Ken

The fact that they make the trip is the fruit of their seeking.

kenrank
Dec 15th 2008, 02:29 PM
In addition to my last post, I wanted to add why WE allow them to come.

These folks apparently at some point in the past got into deep discussions with Jew for Judaism. These are gifted Jewish believers who have an ability to use Paul's writings against a Christian. To some degree these people have good points, there ARE aspects of Paul's writings not understood by Christianity today because some of things he was addressing is not understood. I would be happy to share some of those things in the Paul: A dicsussion on the law thread. Anyway, we let them come because, quite frankly, where else will they not only HEAR the message of salvation and repentence, but SEE it's effects on the lives of others? if we took the upidity stance of, "no, you have to believe X before you can come back," they might NEVER come back and our attitude might be what ultimately KEEPS them from EVER hearing/seeing the message of Messiah.

Just wanted to throw that in.

Peace.
Ken

kenrank
Dec 15th 2008, 02:31 PM
The fact that they make the trip is the fruit of their seeking.

Yeah, that's something isn't it? A good hour and 15 minutes to hour and a half each way. Mind you, we start our service at 7:30 at night, it ends at 9:00 or so...and then we fellowship for up to 4 hours afterward...but it is still a haul!

I do love them though, they have a wonderfull family and the parents, close enough in age to most of us who gather, have a great time together in fellowship. It is noticeable when they haven't made the trip for more than 2 weeks.

Peace.
Ken

diffangle
Dec 15th 2008, 02:32 PM
Ken, do you think they could be anti-missionaries that were sent to keep an eye on your congregation to make sure you're not converting Jews into believer's in Yahushua?

moonglow
Dec 15th 2008, 02:35 PM
To all....

I must say that your responses have been spirit filled scripturally balanced responses. We let them come because quite simply, they want to be there. They do not teach, though we have asked them to open or close for us in prayer...after all, we serve the same God.

You might be wondering why they come. Our congregation is made up of Christians who study the Hebrew Roots of our faith. In other words, in general we believe what everyone else does, but we keep the Feasts of God (Passover, Tabernacles, etc.) Sabbath, and a few other practices not generally kept in most Christian churches. Since they believe in following Torah, I guess we are the closest in distance and belief to them. So they come.

But I have another question for you all....is not believing in Jesus as Messiah a sin?

Peace.
Ken

I think so:

John 16
5 “But now I go away to Him who sent Me, and none of you asks Me, ‘Where are You going?’ 6 But because I have said these things to you, sorrow has filled your heart. 7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth. It is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I depart, I will send Him to you. 8 And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: 9 of sin, because they do not believe in Me; 10 of righteousness, because I go to My Father and you see Me no more; 11 of judgment, because the ruler of this world is judged.

We were all in this state before believing on Him and being saved though...

I would consider these people lost sinners...as we all were once...Jesus came for the lost. :)

I do hope your church is in prayer for their salvation...

God bless

diffangle
Dec 15th 2008, 02:44 PM
Yeah, that's something isn't it? A good hour and 15 minutes to hour and a half each way. Mind you, we start our service at 7:30 at night, it ends at 9:00 or so...and then we fellowship for up to 4 hours afterward...but it is still a haul!

I do love them though, they have a wonderfull family and the parents, close enough in age to most of us who gather, have a great time together in fellowship. It is noticeable when they haven't made the trip for more than 2 weeks.

Peace.
Ken


In addition to my last post, I wanted to add why WE allow them to come.

These folks apparently at some point in the past got into deep discussions with Jew for Judaism. These are gifted Jewish believers who have an ability to use Paul's writings against a Christian. To some degree these people have good points, there ARE aspects of Paul's writings not understood by Christianity today because some of things he was addressing is not understood. I would be happy to share some of those things in the Paul: A dicsussion on the law thread. Anyway, we let them come because, quite frankly, where else will they not only HEAR the message of salvation and repentence, but SEE it's effects on the lives of others? if we took the upidity stance of, "no, you have to believe X before you can come back," they might NEVER come back and our attitude might be what ultimately KEEPS them from EVER hearing/seeing the message of Messiah.

Just wanted to throw that in.

Peace.
Ken
I guess you posted this while I was posting... it sounds like the answer to my question is yes. Even if they are there on a "mission" I would still let them attend, b/c as you said, where else are they going to hear the Gospel. The only thing I would be concerned about is whether or not they are trying to sway other believer's in your group away from Yahushua. Are you concerned about the way they use Paul's writings? Do you(or others in your congregation) feel equipped to counter their arguements or do you foresee it as a problem in the future?

ProjectPeter
Dec 15th 2008, 02:47 PM
Isn't the gathering of believers just that... the gathering of believers? If they aren't believers... why have them in the gathering of believers? Let's say a time times a few more times but if they still reject Him as the Messiah then as a shepherd... I would sense danger there. I'd say it at least very problematic.

kenrank
Dec 15th 2008, 02:52 PM
Ken, do you think they could be anti-missionaries that were sent to keep an eye on your congregation to make sure you're not converting Jews into believer's in Yahushua?


Not at all, but thanks for the question. I have talked "some" about their belief, and it does center on Paul. I don't want to turn this into a law discussion...I started another thread for that ( ;) ) but Paul can be taken as against Torah or for...it just depends on an understanding of the things he was addressing at the time. These folks came to God leading up to Y2K. We can all smile at that now...but many were really unsure at the time as to what was going to happen. I believed it could be something too, and even started to store some food, but about 6 months before when they finally realized they could change the dates on the computers and did, and no smoke came out of the back of them, I knew all would be well.

These folks live more simply than most. No internet in the home, almost a little Amish in their approach to life. So no...I do not think for a minute that they are there for that reason. I think they are there because God instilled in them to be there. I am confident they will, when it is their time, come to Messiah. I really believe that.

Peace.
Ken

kenrank
Dec 15th 2008, 02:56 PM
Isn't the gathering of believers just that... the gathering of believers? If they aren't believers... why have them in the gathering of believers? Let's say a time times a few more times but if they still reject Him as the Messiah then as a shepherd... I would sense danger there. I'd say it at least very problematic.

A valid concern. However, they know not to "teach" and they abide by that. I would rather they be there and have the chance to hear and see the Good News of Messiah, than to be lost with no witness.

Peace.
Ken

ears2hear
Dec 15th 2008, 02:58 PM
A little caution because . . .

A little leaven leavens the whole lump. They need to be told the truth. However, if they reject the truth and do not want to accept what the gospel says then they do not need to be part of that particular body. If they do not believe in Christ then they are not part of His body at all, so why would it be a good idea to let them and their beliefs that are of the devil hang around to influence the rest of the church? Especially those who are young in the Lord and do not know the truth very well yet themselves . . .

I have only read up to this post...but I have to say that I agree completely with this. The church is treading in dangerous waters. However, I do see value in allowing them to attend...but I do believe that if they are unteachable, it is not a good thing to allow them to be there.
We were talking in our small group last night about the Church and how we can be quite confused when it comes to judging or standing firm for the fear of offending someone.
I am very interested to find out why they are attending a church that worships Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior??
This is a very odd situation...are there no other churches near by? I wonder if they have been asked to leave all the others?

kenrank
Dec 15th 2008, 02:59 PM
I guess you posted this while I was posting... it sounds like the answer to my question is yes. Even if they are there on a "mission" I would still let them attend, b/c as you said, where else are they going to hear the Gospel. The only thing I would be concerned about is whether or not they are trying to sway other believer's in your group away from Yahushua. Are you concerned about the way they use Paul's writings? Do you(or others in your congregation) feel equipped to counter their arguements or do you foresee it as a problem in the future?

I don't say this to exalt my congregation leader...but I have been in 40 or 50 churches, watched and listened to hundreds of others, and there might not be anyone more equip to deal with them as our congregation leader. I have NO fear they are there to sway, I know they are there because, like I said, we keep the Feasts and Sabbath...which according to Torah are days of convocation, and aside from just loving us, we are the closest to them in distance when it comes to assembling on those days.

Peace.
Ken

VerticalReality
Dec 15th 2008, 03:03 PM
Isn't the gathering of believers just that... the gathering of believers? If they aren't believers... why have them in the gathering of believers? Let's say a time times a few more times but if they still reject Him as the Messiah then as a shepherd... I would sense danger there. I'd say it at least very problematic.

Right on . . .

As much as we would like to help all people . . . the devil sure would like to mess it all up.

This same devil will use false teachers and sneaky little wolves to come right on in and tear everything to shreds. Folks need to be very discerning.

kenrank
Dec 15th 2008, 03:03 PM
I have only read up to this post...but I have to say that I agree completely with this. The church is treading in dangerous waters. However, I do see value in allowing them to attend...but I do believe that if they are unteachable, it is not a good thing to allow them to be there.
We were talking in our small group last night about the Church and how we can be quite confused when it comes to judging or standing firm for the fear of offending someone.
I am very interested to find out why they are attending a church that worships Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior??
This is a very odd situation...are there no other churches near by? I wonder if they have been asked to leave all the others?

We are not concerned with offending them, there has been other people who were ligitimate trouble makers who have been asked not to return. These people aren't that way. Like I said, I love them dearly, they have a heart for God but lack a knowledge we have been blessed to have. Remember something folks...Jews don't deny Messiah, they just deny that he has come yet. There is a HUGE difference between that and knowing he came and THEN denying him.

So it doesn't get lost on the board....is it sin to not believe Messiah has come?

Ken

threebigrocks
Dec 15th 2008, 03:03 PM
If after this time (a while it sounds like) they are still not interested in Christ, they are apparently able and have taught against Christ - why are they still there? I'd have personally drawn the line after that moment.

Another curious thing that stood out to me - if these unbelievers leave the congregation feeling "not whole" for lack of a better term when they aren't there for a couple weeks - what does that say? Unbelievers leaving a hole in Christian fellowship is far past scary.

Nothing says relationships cannot continue even if they are not in fellowship with your church. They can have contact and mentoring with the pastors or others in order to answer their questions, evangelize, teach them. But, IMHO - they shouldn't be involved as they are especially if they are using NT scripture to try and refute Christianity.

Is it a sin to not believe in Christ? To answer a question with a question: Does believing in Christ send a person to eternal judgment or grant them hope in the promise of eternal salvation? Can sin bring eternal salvation or damnation?

ears2hear
Dec 15th 2008, 03:05 PM
I have only read up to this post...but I have to say that I agree completely with this. The church is treading in dangerous waters. However, I do see value in allowing them to attend...but I do believe that if they are unteachable, it is not a good thing to allow them to be there.
We were talking in our small group last night about the Church and how we can be quite confused when it comes to judging or standing firm for the fear of offending someone.
I am very interested to find out why they are attending a church that worships Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior??
This is a very odd situation...are there no other churches near by? I wonder if they have been asked to leave all the others?

Never mind, as I read further, my question was answered. :hug:

diffangle
Dec 15th 2008, 03:07 PM
Not at all, but thanks for the question. I have talked "some" about their belief, and it does center on Paul. I don't want to turn this into a law discussion...I started another thread for that ( ;) )
Oh I wasn't trying to have a law discussion, I was just curious if they could be hired anti-missionaries for Jews for Judaism.:)



I think they are there because God instilled in them to be there. I am confident they will, when it is their time, come to Messiah. I really believe that.

Then it sounds like there really isn't a question here about letting them attend your congregation.;) :pp

diffangle
Dec 15th 2008, 03:19 PM
I know they are there because, like I said, we keep the Feasts and Sabbath...which according to Torah are days of convocation, and aside from just loving us, we are the closest to them in distance when it comes to assembling on those days.


There aren't any Jewish synagogues closer or equal distance for them?

ProjectPeter
Dec 15th 2008, 03:24 PM
A valid concern. However, they know not to "teach" and they abide by that. I would rather they be there and have the chance to hear and see the Good News of Messiah, than to be lost with no witness.

Peace.
Ken
One doesn't have to be a "teacher" in the church to tear a church apart. In all honesty... it usually isn't a teacher that does that in most cases... most times it comes from the congregation (in many forms and fashions). So it's more than a concern really. It's a valid danger.

ProjectPeter
Dec 15th 2008, 03:26 PM
Right on . . .

As much as we would like to help all people . . . the devil sure would like to mess it all up.

This same devil will use false teachers and sneaky little wolves to come right on in and tear everything to shreds. Folks need to be very discerning.
It has gotten to be where wolves don't even have to dress up in sheep clothing today. Folks have gotten away from understanding that the gathering is in fact for believers. Lots of reasons for that I suspect... but it's been forgotten for whatever the reason.

kenrank
Dec 15th 2008, 03:26 PM
There aren't any Jewish synagogues closer or equal distance for them?

Lexington is an additional 30 minutes each way. Besides, even the Jew, at some point in time, will come through Messiah. "No man may come to the Father except through me" he said. That includes the Jews. So I would rather them be with us, a part of our group, hearing and seeing the good news, then not.

I saw one poster say that he would have drawn a line in the sand. Given them a certain amount of TIME before sending them packing. (the last line mine not his) That kind of amazed me...."he would set the time?????" I would at least PRAY first and ask GOD when I would set a time or draw a line and NEVER make that call myself. Who am I to get in the way of God? When it comes to spiritual things, I do NOT believe in coincidence....they are there for a reason. First, to maybe gives >>us<< a lesson on compassion, the ability to righteously judge, and understand patience. Second, to win them over when it is their time.

Peace to you.
Ken

diffangle
Dec 15th 2008, 03:31 PM
How(and where) did they get connected with Jews for Judaism?

kenrank
Dec 15th 2008, 03:38 PM
It has gotten to be where wolves don't even have to dress up in sheep clothing today. Folks have gotten away from understanding that the gathering is in fact for believers. Lots of reasons for that I suspect... but it's been forgotten for whatever the reason.

You assume they are wolves, interesting. Two weeks ago "Bob" asked for a CD that our music leader put together that has this one somg on it he loves. The whole song, I forget the name, is about Messiah. Their paradigm...how they see scripture, is changing. I find it interesting that some would think to send them packing, yet, they are changing. The fact that we accept Messiah and they WANT to be there, feel the NEED to be there is quite an indicator. They could drive the extra 30 minutes each way to go to a Jewish assembly...but something draws them to us. So while they take part in our assembly...not teaching...but taking part in the discussion, singing songs of salvation, even taking home a CD because a song about Jesus that they like is on there....some would still want them to leave. I see God changing their hearts...they are beginning to ask questions. Like I said earlier...sitting them down to answer questions not asked would be fruitless...but they are now starting to ask. The seeds have been planted, the watering been consistent...I believe fruit will be produced. If we had asked them to leave because they didn't believe everything we believe...when and where would they begin to ask questions or have the song on disc giving praise to Messiah? They wouldn't. Patience is the key folks....we are not the judges, we are the teachers. Some students take longer than others to learn...and as long as these folks are not in secret passing an agenda to others, I see no problem. And like I said, we are a VERY close group of believers. We are together as a congregation very often. There are no secrets like that here.

Peace.
Ken

kenrank
Dec 15th 2008, 03:39 PM
How(and where) did they get connected with Jews for Judaism?

Not sure, before they moved to Kentucky they lived in another state north of here. Whatever damage was caused by that group, happened there.

Peace.
Ken

watchinginawe
Dec 15th 2008, 03:47 PM
I have talked "some" about their belief, and it does center on Paul. I don't want to turn this into a law discussion...I started another thread for that ( ;) ) but Paul can be taken as against Torah or for...it just depends on an understanding of the things he was addressing at the time. Ken, there would be not very much that they could add to the pile of understanding Paul's writings if they didn't first accept Christ. How could one read Paul's epistles and come to God but decide that Jesus isn't Christ? :dunno: There would have to be some major conspiracy theory regarding the veracity of Paul's epistles as we have them or something.

That they are comfortable attending is interesting also. Perhaps their hearts are being softened but perhaps also they are comfortable with the observance of Torah and aren't made to feel uncomfortable regarding Jesus Christ. I can see how that would happen in a small congregation who all have already come to Christ.

As far as a time line and drawing a line, we know Paul did this. We also know that Paul knew when he wore out his welcome. Each situation surely is different.

Acts 19:8 And he went into the synagogue, and spake boldly for the space of three months, disputing and persuading the things concerning the kingdom of God.

9 But when divers were hardened, and believed not, but spake evil of that way before the multitude, he departed from them, and separated the disciples, disputing daily in the school of one Tyrannus.
So it doesn't get lost on the board....is it sin to not believe Messiah has come?The issue seems one of rejection. One can not be saved if they don't place their faith in the Saviour. This should be preached in your Church and if it isn't then perhaps that is why these folks don't believe. Preach the Gospel.

God Bless!

Steve M
Dec 15th 2008, 03:48 PM
I might have trouble with this situation.


2 John 1 (New International Version)

2 John 1

1The elder,
To the chosen lady and her children, whom I love in the truth—and not I only, but also all who know the truth - 2because of the truth, which lives in us and will be with us forever:

3Grace, mercy and peace from God the Father and from Jesus Christ, the Father's Son, will be with us in truth and love.

4It has given me great joy to find some of your children walking in the truth, just as the Father commanded us. 5And now, dear lady, I am not writing you a new command but one we have had from the beginning. I ask that we love one another. 6And this is love: that we walk in obedience to his commands. As you have heard from the beginning, his command is that you walk in love.

7Many deceivers, who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh, have gone out into the world. Any such person is the deceiver and the antichrist. 8Watch out that you do not lose what you have worked for, but that you may be rewarded fully. 9Anyone who runs ahead and does not continue in the teaching of Christ does not have God; whoever continues in the teaching has both the Father and the Son. 10If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not take him into your house or welcome him. 11Anyone who welcomes him shares in his wicked work.


1 Corinthians 5 (New International Version)

1 Corinthians 5

9I have written you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people— 10not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world. 11But now I am writing you that you must not associate with anyone who calls himself a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat.

Is denying Jesus as Messiah close to denying Jesus came in the flesh? Does it fall under the same categorical no-no land?

That's something I don't know, but it's something that needs to be looked at soberly and completely.

ravi4u2
Dec 15th 2008, 04:03 PM
So my question is, would YOU let them attend your church?
KenChurch is not about 'attending'. So, if they want to 'attend', I see no problems with it.

ProjectPeter
Dec 15th 2008, 04:10 PM
You assume they are wolves, interesting. If I were to err then I would err on the side of caution considering, as a pastor, my responsibility is to the sheep (I think you said around 50'ish). Like I said... a time and even times a couple of times then cool. But there would come a limit... again, for the protection of those in my charge.


Two weeks ago "Bob" asked for a CD that our music leader put together that has this one somg on it he loves. The whole song, I forget the name, is about Messiah. Their paradigm...how they see scripture, is changing.That's great and all. But we have folks that like Jennifer's music (her blog is on my signature and she's a mediator here on the board) who are self-proclaimed heathens... some listen to her music rather often. That doesn't mean much albeit there is a see planted hopefully every time the listen. Even still... there would be a limit to their time among the believers.


I find it interesting that some would think to send them packing, yet, they are changing. The fact that we accept Messiah and they WANT to be there, feel the NEED to be there is quite an indicator.It could be an indicator of a lot of things sure. Not sure why you find it all that interesting though... you did start the thread asking the question. I figure by that... you knew there would be varying answers.

As to their changing... the ultimate change is do they accept Jesus as the Messiah. If not... then other change is moot. As to sending them packing... only from the gathering of believers. Privately... I'd work with them until the cows came home or they told me to pound sand. Has nothing to do with the gathering.


They could drive the extra 30 minutes each way to go to a Jewish assembly...but something draws them to us. So while they take part in our assembly...not teaching...but taking part in the discussion, singing songs of salvation, even taking home a CD because a song about Jesus that they like is on there....some would still want them to leave.Sure. I could especially see that coming from folks in a elder or pastoral position. The risk is great allowing them to continue.



I see God changing their hearts...they are beginning to ask questions. Like I said earlier...sitting them down to answer questions not asked would be fruitless...but they are now starting to ask. The seeds have been planted, the watering been consistent...I believe fruit will be produced. If we had asked them to leave because they didn't believe everything we believe...when and where would they begin to ask questions or have the song on disc giving praise to Messiah? They wouldn't. Patience is the key folks....we are not the judges, we are the teachers. Some students take longer than others to learn...and as long as these folks are not in secret passing an agenda to others, I see no problem. And like I said, we are a VERY close group of believers. We are together as a congregation very often. There are no secrets like that here.Then I suppose the only question left to ask is "why did you even start the thread?" If your mind is made up then that's cool... your congregation and not mine.

Samsheep2
Dec 15th 2008, 04:29 PM
Greetings all. This subject came up in another thread and I thought it would make a good thread on it's own merit.

In the congregation I attend, a very close knit group of 50 when everyone shows up, we have a family of 6 that comes nearly every week. (They have to drive an hour and a half each way to get there, so they don't come every week) The parents, we can call them Bob and Jane, 35ish, deny that Yahushua (Jesus) is the Messiah. They do not deny a Messiah, but they deny Jesus as Messiah. Believing instead, that he has yet to come.

So my question is, would YOU let them attend your church?

Peace.
Ken

Sure, why not? Attending is one thing becoming a part of the fellowship has to do with being of 'like faith'. Just my thoughts.

God bless,
Sam

carissadawn
Dec 15th 2008, 04:41 PM
I might have trouble with this situation.





Is denying Jesus as Messiah close to denying Jesus came in the flesh? Does it fall under the same categorical no-no land?

That's something I don't know, but it's something that needs to be looked at soberly and completely.

Wow Steve. The passages you quoted are an extremely powerful argument for not letting them attend...

Firefighter
Dec 15th 2008, 04:42 PM
All I can say is WOW!:o

As far as allowing them to attend my church...

I am a pastor and the first thing you learn quickly (hopefully) is that it is not my church. It does not belong to me, it is God's church. Who am I to decide that a non-believer cannot come in and hear the gospel?


To those who would not let them attend...

Are we really that scared of someone of differing beliefs?!?! The gospel of Jesus Christ has stood (in spite of men and many Christians) the test. It has fought and won every battle it has ever faced. It is still standing. It will continue to stand.

kenrank
Dec 15th 2008, 04:52 PM
Ken, there would be not very much that they could add to the pile of understanding Paul's writings if they didn't first accept Christ. How could one read Paul's epistles and come to God but decide that Jesus isn't Christ? :dunno: There would have to be some major conspiracy theory regarding the veracity of Paul's epistles as we have them or something.

That they are comfortable attending is interesting also. Perhaps their hearts are being softened but perhaps also they are comfortable with the observance of Torah and aren't made to feel uncomfortable regarding Jesus Christ. I can see how that would happen in a small congregation who all have already come to Christ.

As far as a time line and drawing a line, we know Paul did this. We also know that Paul knew when he wore out his welcome. Each situation surely is different.

Acts 19:8 And he went into the synagogue, and spake boldly for the space of three months, disputing and persuading the things concerning the kingdom of God.

9 But when divers were hardened, and believed not, but spake evil of that way before the multitude, he departed from them, and separated the disciples, disputing daily in the school of one Tyrannus. The issue seems one of rejection. One can not be saved if they don't place their faith in the Saviour. This should be preached in your Church and if it isn't then perhaps that is why these folks don't believe. Preach the Gospel.

God Bless!

If you come from the premise that no Apostolic writer can contradict Torah, then Paul can be used to your demise....if you are not trong in your understanding. While I do not believe he does contradict Torah...many things he says...the way he says them...the things he addresses at times (Man made laws, the wall of enmity put up by Jews between them and gentiles, etc.) can be mis-used against you. Which is what Jews for Judaism does. When that happens, once their foot is in THAT door...what Paul says directly about Messiah is also seen in doubt because the J4J have cast doubt on everything else he said. If you are a dispensationalist....grace only no Law...J4J probably can't effect you as much as one who believes certain Hebrew aspects of our faith has not been done away with. (i.e keping the Feasts of Sabbath) This is the case with Bob and June...or whatever I called them. Not strong in their understanding at the time....vunerable because of their emotional state....at that time. Again though, they are a changing and it is a blessing to watch!

Peace.
Ken

kenrank
Dec 15th 2008, 04:55 PM
I might have trouble with this situation.

Is denying Jesus as Messiah close to denying Jesus came in the flesh? Does it fall under the same categorical no-no land?

That's something I don't know, but it's something that needs to be looked at soberly and completely.

Steve....they do not deny a Messiah, but like Jews, deny he has come. However, their questions of late, certain points, some actions, lead me and our congregation leader to believe that they are turning. Thanks for the input!

Peace.
Ken

thepenitent
Dec 15th 2008, 05:02 PM
1 John 2:22-23 clearly defines these people as Anti-Christ.

kenrank
Dec 15th 2008, 05:08 PM
It could be an indicator of a lot of things sure. Not sure why you find it all that interesting though... you did start the thread asking the question. I figure by that... you knew there would be varying answers.

Then I suppose the only question left to ask is "why did you even start the thread?" If your mind is made up then that's cool... your congregation and not mine.

Then I will reveal my dark intentions. ;) Everything I have said concerning them is true. But, what it were a homosexual male and not a Jewish leaning couple? Would you allow them to come? Sin is sin...but it is the sinners who we are supposed to teach. Messiah did not come to save the righteous but to call the sinner to repentence. So how about it, do you open your door, pastor....to a homosexual, a drunk, an addict? Or do you protect your flock and leave the sinner with the wolves?

Do you place a time limit on it, do you even ask God what that time is? Does he perfect who HE WILLS...or do we choose for him? Does the Father draw the sinner to you in order to SEE the light on the hill that cannot be hid...or do you choose who comes and who doesn't?

A number of years ago in a church in Lexington that gets about 3000 or so on a Sunday, the pastor was off and the associate pastor was in. A homeless guy, scragly...not washed, unshaven, shaky like he is on drugs or something...smelly...just a mess comes in. The associate pastor had to be thinking, "why of ALL days, today????" Nobody greeted this stinky guy....nobody sat next to him. He was shunned as beneath them. Can you picture this in your minds? After the worship, the associate pastors starts to speak. The homeless guy stands up and starts to walk toward the front....he gets to the bottom of the pulpit when deacons and a few larger concerned members run up and grab this NUTJOB before he gets the few more feet to the pastor. Can you imagine this......

Then, the stinky homeless guy pulls off his coat. He is wearing a nice polo under it. He takes off the wig, uses a wet nap to clean his face...there, in front of 3000 shocked people....the pastor of the church.

Peace.
Ken

ears2hear
Dec 15th 2008, 05:11 PM
I think that my concern lies within the fact that they do not beleive that Jesus has already come in the flesh. I have a bit of concern for those in the flock who *could* be drawn away from the Truth. kwim?
I am pleased to read though, that they seem to be softening to the Truth.
I guess my advice would be to make sure that the congregation is covered in prayer and protection...maybe even a hedge of warring angels would be a good idea?!;)

watchinginawe
Dec 15th 2008, 05:14 PM
If you come from the premise that no Apostolic writer can contradict Torah, then Paul can be used to your demise....if you are not strong in your understanding.I can see how this might be a problem for Messianics. However, the proper premise IMO is that no Apostolic writer can contradict Jesus Christ. No arguement is going to shake that one loose! I would have limited desire to discuss the writings of Paul regarding Torah with those who wish to use them to the demise of my faith in Jesus Christ. If they don't believe Paul to be an Apostle and his writings scripture, then I don't think I am going to make convincing arguements to sway them by showing he didn't "contradict Torah".

God Bless!

ears2hear
Dec 15th 2008, 05:15 PM
Then I will reveal my dark intentions. ;)


Then, the stinky homeless guy pulls off his coat. He is wearing a nice polo under it. He takes off the wig, uses a wet nap to clean his face...there, in front of 3000 shocked people....the pastor of the church.

Peace.
Ken

Ahhh, I see what you are saying...but a stinky, homeless guy is far different than a couple who deny Christ as the risen Lord and Savoir.;)

threebigrocks
Dec 15th 2008, 05:19 PM
A number of years ago in a church in Lexington that gets about 3000 or so on a Sunday, the pastor was off and the associate pastor was in. A homeless guy, scragly...not washed, unshaven, shaky like he is on drugs or something...smelly...just a mess comes in. The associate pastor had to be thinking, "why of ALL days, today????" Nobody greeted this stinky guy....nobody sat next to him. He was shunned as beneath them. Can you picture this in your minds? After the worship, the associate pastors starts to speak. The homeless guy stands up and starts to walk toward the front....he gets to the bottom of the pulpit when deacons and a few larger concerned members run up and grab this NUTJOB before he gets the few more feet to the pastor. Can you imagine this......

Then, the stinky homeless guy pulls off his coat. He is wearing a nice polo under it. He takes off the wig, uses a wet nap to clean his face...there, in front of 3000 shocked people....the pastor of the church.

Peace.
Ken


That proves the point a couple of us have stated. What the congregation did was wrong there. They didn't even give the "homeless guy" a chance. Nobody did anything. Wouldn't talk to him, sit next to him, pray with him, ask what his needs were. Nothing. Shame on them.

Yet here in your example of the Jewish family - your congregation has. They have gotten to know them, welcomed them, sat with them, ate with them (I'd assume with the length of the fellowship), children played together, etc. They have shown where their heart is.

No comparison between the two. Had that been a real homeless man at that church and he had been welcomed and people had taken time to know him and he was an unrepentant person speaking against the church and against God - put him out.

kenrank
Dec 15th 2008, 05:25 PM
Ahhh, I see what you are saying...but a stinky, homeless guy is far different than a couple who deny Christ as the risen Lord and Savoir.;)

Not really...with Messiah is one who is still in sin. He showed the ravages of sin, shaking as if on drugs in in withdrawal. The smell of liquor (sorry, let that out...he dosed himself)...sin was evident as was a state of living beneath those who attend this church.

My point is, we cannot see the heart! We have NO CLUE what seed was planted by whom before they came before us. While I understand and appreciate the notion of protecting a flock...a Jew in your congregation is no harm unless they teach, which they don't. How we REACT to those different, or those in SIN....has a DIRECT bearing on how THEY will treat any information on salvation we give them. When we place ourselves in some kind of spiritual superior level to the sinner, when we lay down obstacles for them to jump over.. we do the work of the Pharisee Messiah rebuked. He and he alone perfects...he and he alone changes the heart...he and he alone changes the inner man!

Peace.
Ken

ProjectPeter
Dec 15th 2008, 05:31 PM
Then I will reveal my dark intentions. ;) Everything I have said concerning them is true. But, what it were a homosexual male and not a Jewish leaning couple? Would you allow them to come? Sin is sin...but it is the sinners who we are supposed to teach. Messiah did not come to save the righteous but to call the sinner to repentence. So how about it, do you open your door, pastor....to a homosexual, a drunk, an addict? Or do you protect your flock and leave the sinner with the wolves?No... It would be no different really. Again... a time or several would be fine. But if they were living the lifestyle and no change... there would be a limit on that time. We are not to teach the sinners. We teach the body... equip the body to do the work of Christ. That is the calling for the apostle, prophet, evangelist, pastor and teacher. The body (gathering of believers) has a specific need and that need needs fulfilled. What the sinner needs is to get saved. They cannot do the ministry of Christ until they are in Christ. In other words... they need saved. Then they become part of the gathering of believers. The sinner isn't among the wolves. The sinner, in the world, is simply among his kinfolk. When they get saved... then they become part of the flock.


Do you place a time limit on it, do you even ask God what that time is? Does he perfect who HE WILLS...or do we choose for him? Does the Father draw the sinner to you in order to SEE the light on the hill that cannot be hid...or do you choose who comes and who doesn't? In that gathering of believers... again... it's for believers. Not sure why that is so difficult to comprehend but a little prudence should help out I figure.


A number of years ago in a church in Lexington that gets about 3000 or so on a Sunday, the pastor was off and the associate pastor was in. A homeless guy, scragly...not washed, unshaven, shaky like he is on drugs or something...smelly...just a mess comes in. The associate pastor had to be thinking, "why of ALL days, today????" Nobody greeted this stinky guy....nobody sat next to him. He was shunned as beneath them. Can you picture this in your minds? After the worship, the associate pastors starts to speak. The homeless guy stands up and starts to walk toward the front....he gets to the bottom of the pulpit when deacons and a few larger concerned members run up and grab this NUTJOB before he gets the few more feet to the pastor. Can you imagine this......

Then, the stinky homeless guy pulls off his coat. He is wearing a nice polo under it. He takes off the wig, uses a wet nap to clean his face...there, in front of 3000 shocked people....the pastor of the church.

Peace.
KenApparently you are not getting the point. I'm not even remotely saying that you turn anyone away from coming into the church. I am saying that you turn someone away once it becomes known that they are in fact "antiChrist" and even make such points in their discussion. Again... it's y'alls church and not mine and you can certainly do things how you wish. Rest assured though... as sure as night follows day... if you let a person such as this camp out there on a regular basis then you'll have to one day repent of it because of the damage that it does and will do.

ProjectPeter
Dec 15th 2008, 05:34 PM
All I can say is WOW!:o

As far as allowing them to attend my church...

I am a pastor and the first thing you learn quickly (hopefully) is that it is not my church. It does not belong to me, it is God's church. Who am I to decide that a non-believer cannot come in and hear the gospel?


To those who would not let them attend...

Are we really that scared of someone of differing beliefs?!?! The gospel of Jesus Christ has stood (in spite of men and many Christians) the test. It has fought and won every battle it has ever faced. It is still standing. It will continue to stand.
And you too are missing the point. It isn't about not allowing them to church. It is about allowing them to stay for an extended time (as if they were part of the gathering) while all the while they continue to deny that Jesus is the Christ.

If anyone has any interest at all what Scripture says on such a matter as this... ponder this. If not... then drive on and do as you will.

2 John 1:7 For many deceivers have gone out into the world, those who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is the deceiver and the antichrist.
8 Watch yourselves, that you might not lose what we have accomplished, but that you may receive a full reward.
9 Anyone who goes too far and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God; the one who abides in the teaching, he has both the Father and the Son.
10 If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not receive him into your house, and do not give him a greeting;
11 for the one who gives him a greeting participates in his evil deeds.

kenrank
Dec 15th 2008, 05:34 PM
Yet here in your example of the Jewish family - your congregation has. They have gotten to know them, welcomed them, sat with them, ate with them (I'd assume with the length of the fellowship), children played together, etc. They have shown where their heart is. No comparison between the two.

And had the church in Lexington treated him differently, would he have taken a shower, shaved, not taken a drug, and changed his clothes before coming next week....or would you have put a time limit on him?

The family that attends our church has gone from assembling during Feasts only, to assembling at least 2 weeks out of the month KNOWING the Message is centered around Messiah, even though we may spend a little for time in the OT than most churches. EVERYTHING is done is God's time...NOT OURS. How can we place a time limit on one's walk to salvation? We can place a TIME limit on somebody who the God who exists OUTSIDE of time is working on? If they don't teach others, nor in secret attempt to persuede them...and they do not and have been asked long ago not to....what's the problem? If they tried to TEACH Messiah has not come...they are gone. They haven't, so what's the problem?

Ken

ProjectPeter
Dec 15th 2008, 05:35 PM
Not really...with Messiah is one who is still in sin. He showed the ravages of sin, shaking as if on drugs in in withdrawal. The smell of liquor (sorry, let that out...he dosed himself)...sin was evident as was a state of living beneath those who attend this church.

My point is, we cannot see the heart! We have NO CLUE what seed was planted by whom before they came before us. While I understand and appreciate the notion of protecting a flock...a Jew in your congregation is no harm unless they teach, which they don't. How we REACT to those different, or those in SIN....has a DIRECT bearing on how THEY will treat any information on salvation we give them. When we place ourselves in some kind of spiritual superior level to the sinner, when we lay down obstacles for them to jump over.. we do the work of the Pharisee Messiah rebuked. He and he alone perfects...he and he alone changes the heart...he and he alone changes the inner man!

Peace.
Ken
Sure you can see the heart. Their heart says that Jesus is not the Christ. What more do you need to see?

ProjectPeter
Dec 15th 2008, 05:38 PM
And had the church in Lexington treated him differently, would he have taken a shower, shaved, not taken a drug, and changed his clothes before coming next week....or would you have put a time limit on him?

The family that attends our church has gone from assembling during Feasts only, to assembling at least 2 weeks out of the month KNOWING the Message is centered around Messiah, even though we may spend a little for time in the OT than most churches. EVERYTHING is done is God's time...NOT OURS. How can we place a time limit on one's walk to salvation? We can place a TIME limit on somebody who the God who exists OUTSIDE of time is working on? If they don't teach others, nor in secret attempt to persuede them...and they do not and have been asked long ago not to....what's the problem? If they tried to TEACH Messiah has not come...they are gone. They haven't, so what's the problem?

Ken
What they do in secret is done in secret and thus not known (hence it being done in secret) ... until it is generally late in the game and damage has been done. Again... one has to assess how much damage can be done and if it is damage that can be a stumbling block to the congregation... the pastor would be derelict in their duty as a shepherd of that flock to allow it a place. Do you need Scripture on the responsibility of a shepherd in the church... if so I will gladly provide it for you.

VerticalReality
Dec 15th 2008, 05:42 PM
Sure you can see the heart. Their heart says that Jesus is not the Christ. What more do you need to see?

Agree with you here again, PP. Why do folks continuously state that we cannot see what's in the other's heart? Did our Savior not say that we would know them by their fruit? If they are denying Christ then what other fruit do you need? If they are refusing to accept that very basic foundational truth of our faith then what more is there to say on the matter? To keep them in the gathering of believers even after a knowledge of this fact comes to light would be irresponsible and worthy of judgment, IMO.

kenrank
Dec 15th 2008, 05:45 PM
And you too are missing the point. It isn't about not allowing them to church. It is about allowing them to stay for an extended time (as if they were part of the gathering) while all the while they continue to deny that Jesus is the Christ.

PP...are they really denying Jesus Christ? Do the Jews really deny Jesus Christ? The answer is, no. They just lack and understanding you are blessed with. Their eyes will be opened.

Again, who are we to place a time limit on anyone who, by their own choice, is attending our assembly? They had been there about 6 months when I learned they didn't believe Messiah had come....but it wasn't THEM who told me. The only person who knew, was the congregation leader, who shared it with me while "Bob" and he were having a discussion about Paul. Appearently, the first day they came they went to him and privately asked persmission to come. Our pastor said as long as you don't try to teach others that viewpoint, I don't have a problem. They agreed not to, and have never gone back on that agreement.

I don't know, I just see it differently I guess. Grace is eternal, there is no time limit on grace. Not only does God extend grace...we should to each other. Loving your enemy is grace...but these people aren't enemies. They are God loving people who are compelled to come to us....they don't share their views....which, seem to be changing. What if, in another month or two, I come back and say they have repented of this position and now accept Messiah? You would have already sent them packing...repentence no longer an issue.

Think about it before replying.

Ken

ProjectPeter
Dec 15th 2008, 05:56 PM
PP...are they really denying Jesus Christ? Do the Jews really deny Jesus Christ? The answer is, no. They just lack and understanding you are blessed with. Their eyes will be opened.And when their eyes are opened... they will be a part of the fellowship of believers. Until then... they simply need to be saved.


Again, who are we to place a time limit on anyone who, by their own choice, is attending our assembly? They had been there about 6 months when I learned they didn't believe Messiah had come....but it wasn't THEM who told me. The only person who knew, was the congregation leader, who shared it with me while "Bob" and he were having a discussion about Paul. Appearently, the first day they came they went to him and privately asked persmission to come. Our pastor said as long as you don't try to teach others that viewpoint, I don't have a problem. They agreed not to, and have never gone back on that agreement.That was irresponsible of the leader and pastor. Should the Lord tarry much longer then he will learn that lesson the hard way as most pastor's have learned or will have to learn.




I don't know, I just see it differently I guess. Grace is eternal, there is no time limit on grace. Not only does God extend grace...we should to each other. Loving your enemy is grace...but these people aren't enemies. They are God loving people who are compelled to come to us....they don't share their views....which, seem to be changing. What if, in another month or two, I come back and say they have repented of this position and now accept Messiah? You would have already sent them packing...repentence no longer an issue.

Think about it before replying.

KenThey are not God's people, Ken. They deny the Son and if they were God's people... they wouldn't do that.


I could equally say to you... what if in another two months, you have three other families that have turned from Christ and you should have sent them packing like I told you? I suspect that you will agree that "what if" being what it is... pretty fruitless most times.

And again... if you're interested in some more Scripture on matters such as this.

1 John 2:21 I have not written to you because you do not know the truth, but because you do know it, and because no lie is of the truth.
22 Who is the liar but the one who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, the one who denies the Father and the Son.
23 Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father; the one who confesses the Son has the Father also.
24 As for you, let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father.
'
John 8:31 ¶Jesus therefore was saying to those Jews who had believed Him, "If you abide in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine;
32 and you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free."
33 They answered Him, "We are Abraham's offspring, and have never yet been enslaved to anyone; how is it that You say, `You shall become free´?"
34 Jesus answered them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin.
35 "And the slave does not remain in the house forever; the son does remain forever.
36 "If therefore the Son shall make you free, you shall be free indeed.
37 "I know that you are Abraham's offspring; yet you seek to kill Me, because My word has no place in you.
38 "I speak the things which I have seen with My Father; therefore you also do the things which you heard from your father."
39 They answered and said to Him, "Abraham is our father." Jesus said to them, "If you are Abraham's children, do the deeds of Abraham.
40 "But as it is, you are seeking to kill Me, a man who has told you the truth, which I heard from God; this Abraham did not do.
41 "You are doing the deeds of your father." They said to Him, "We were not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God."
42 Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love Me; for I proceeded forth and have come from God, for I have not even come on My own initiative, but He sent Me.
43 "Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you cannot hear My word.
44 "You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature; for he is a liar, and the father of lies.
45 "But because I speak the truth, you do not believe Me.
46 "Which one of you convicts Me of sin? If I speak truth, why do you not believe Me?
47 "He who is of God hears the words of God; for this reason you do not hear them, because you are not of God."

You can read much on that in the gospel of John alone... Jesus was pretty clear.

kenrank
Dec 15th 2008, 05:57 PM
What they do in secret is done in secret and thus not known (hence it being done in secret) ... until it is generally late in the game and damage has been done. Again... one has to assess how much damage can be done and if it is damage that can be a stumbling block to the congregation... the pastor would be derelict in their duty as a shepherd of that flock to allow it a place. Do you need Scripture on the responsibility of a shepherd in the church... if so I will gladly provide it for you.

You assume too much. This is not a group of surface topic new to the bible students of Scripture. This is a very tight group of people who get deeper than any church I have ever attended. And....there is another issue....this couples lives are geared around Torah. There is a genuine "fear of God" in these people. It deep and abiding love of God. "Lying" and "bearing false witness" are sins....and while we are not perfect, we don't go there.

Anyway, my point wasn't to debate Bob and June. My point was to see where you all stand in your reaction to those who are different than you, or are still in sin.

I find it SAD that many believed they should "place a time limit" on how long one who is different can stay! Sad indeed...because God works at God's speed....He and he alone can draw a man unto salvation, unto himself. Without the ability to be patient, we can cause harm.

Lastly...not one of you...none...said they would pray to God before deciding anything. In each case, especially those who would have kicked them out....you said so without consulting the authority from which this decision should be made in the first place. How can we take an action like that without asking for guidance first? And if you felt that little voice say leave them be...would you have?

peace.
Ken

Diolectic
Dec 15th 2008, 05:57 PM
Greetings all. This subject came up in another thread and I thought it would make a good thread on it's own merit.

In the congregation I attend, a very close knit group of 50 when everyone shows up, we have a family of 6 that comes nearly every week. (They have to drive an hour and a half each way to get there, so they don't come every week) The parents, we can call them Bob and Jane, 35ish, deny that Yahushua (Jesus) is the Messiah. They do not deny a Messiah, but they deny Jesus as Messiah. Believing instead, that he has yet to come.

So my question is, would YOU let them attend your church?

Peace.
KenWhere else should they go?
The chusch is not only for saints but sinners.
They must be persuaded that Jesus is the Messiah as Paul did in Acts!

VerticalReality
Dec 15th 2008, 05:58 PM
Again, who are we to place a time limit on anyone who, by their own choice, is attending our assembly?

Who are we? If you have been placed in leadership then it is God that says we are to place a limit on what we allow to influence the body of believers. Paul couldn't be more clear in 1 Corinthians 5 that a little leaven leavens the whole lump. We need to purge out the old leaven so that we may be a new lump. To keep around folks who deny that Jesus is the Christ is keeping around the leaven of the Pharisees that Jesus commanded that His disciples stay away from.

To make it worse, if you are in leadership and God has charged you with keeping His flock and tending His sheep then to let wolves creep in and sow seeds of the devil would be on your hands. That is the responsibility of leadership to prepare and equip the saints with sound doctrine keeping out all things of the enemy until they are ready to go out and do the work of the ministry to those who are lost.

VerticalReality
Dec 15th 2008, 06:02 PM
The chusch is not only for saints but sinners.


Where is that at?

ProjectPeter
Dec 15th 2008, 06:06 PM
You assume too much. This is not a group of surface topic new to the bible students of Scripture. This is a very tight group of people who get deeper than any church I have ever attended. And....there is another issue....this couples lives are geared around Torah. There is a genuine "fear of God" in these people. It deep and abiding love of God. "Lying" and "bearing false witness" are sins....and while we are not perfect, we don't go there.

Anyway, my point wasn't to debate Bob and June. My point was to see where you all stand in your reaction to those who are different than you, or are still in sin.

I find it SAD that many believed they should "place a time limit" on how long one who is different can stay! Sad indeed...because God works at God's speed....He and he alone can draw a man unto salvation, unto himself. Without the ability to be patient, we can cause harm.

Lastly...not one of you...none...said they would pray to God before deciding anything. In each case, especially those who would have kicked them out....you said so without consulting the authority from which this decision should be made in the first place. How can we take an action like that without asking for guidance first? And if you felt that little voice say leave them be...would you have?

peace.
Ken
And let me be clear. If a pastor isn't in constant prayer to God on discernment, direction, leading... then that is the person that ought not to be a pastor. What I find even more surprising is that one so "deep" would need to see that typed out in clarification. ;)

ProjectPeter
Dec 15th 2008, 06:07 PM
Where else should they go?
The chusch is not only for saints but sinners.
They must be persuaded that Jesus is the Messiah as Paul did in Acts!
And even Paul had limits and in most places he ultimately shook the dust off his feet and walked away and that's in Acts as well. Context is a beautiful thing. ;) Keep in mind as well... in Acts we see where Paul went to their "house" and not they in the gathering of Christian believers.

Steve M
Dec 15th 2008, 06:10 PM
Then I will reveal my dark intentions. Everything I have said concerning them is true. But, what it were a homosexual male and not a Jewish leaning couple? Would you allow them to come?

I go back to what Paul said. I will associate with an unbeliever in sin; but Paul is clear that one called a brother who is steeped in this is not to be allowed among the flock. Ergo the passage I posted from 1 Corinthians.

He is clear in 1 Corinthians.

Steve M
Dec 15th 2008, 06:12 PM
I find it SAD that many believed they should "place a time limit" on how long one who is different can stay!

And I stand upon Paul's words. "Expel the wicked man from among you."

ears2hear
Dec 15th 2008, 06:14 PM
Agree with you here again, PP. Why do folks continuously state that we cannot see what's in the other's heart? Did our Savior not say that we would know them by their fruit? If they are denying Christ then what other fruit do you need? If they are refusing to accept that very basic foundational truth of our faith then what more is there to say on the matter? To keep them in the gathering of believers even after a knowledge of this fact comes to light would be irresponsible and worthy of judgment, IMO.

I just have to say that I agree, once again.
It's dangerous waters...and I also agree with the other poster who said that the devil knows how to wokr behind the scenes and he does it quite well...:(
Is your church praying protection over the flock?

threebigrocks
Dec 15th 2008, 06:24 PM
And had the church in Lexington treated him differently, would he have taken a shower, shaved, not taken a drug, and changed his clothes before coming next week....or would you have put a time limit on him?

The family that attends our church has gone from assembling during Feasts only, to assembling at least 2 weeks out of the month KNOWING the Message is centered around Messiah, even though we may spend a little for time in the OT than most churches. EVERYTHING is done is God's time...NOT OURS. How can we place a time limit on one's walk to salvation? We can place a TIME limit on somebody who the God who exists OUTSIDE of time is working on? If they don't teach others, nor in secret attempt to persuede them...and they do not and have been asked long ago not to....what's the problem? If they tried to TEACH Messiah has not come...they are gone. They haven't, so what's the problem?

Ken

As to the homeless scenario - they love the stinky, smelly guy who loves the Lord if he was of Christ. Thus, they can get him off the street, offer him a shower and clothes that are clean, keep him away from dispair and give him hope to get off the booze. So long as he strives, as would apply to every single person who claims Christ, to be like Christ and shows fruit - he can stay in fellowship. Same with any sinner who walks in the door. If they love the sin - they aren't of Christ.

In God's time - the Jewish family may come to know Christ. Right now - they don't. Nobody has said to dump them on their backsides. Continue to minister to them, but not in the context of what was designed for the fellowship of the saints.

kenrank
Dec 15th 2008, 06:26 PM
Who are we? If you have been placed in leadership then it is God that says we are to place a limit on what we allow to influence the body of believers. Paul couldn't be more clear in 1 Corinthians 5 that a little leaven leavens the whole lump. We need to purge out the old leaven so that we may be a new lump. To keep around folks who deny that Jesus is the Christ is keeping around the leaven of the Pharisees that Jesus commanded that His disciples stay away from.

To make it worse, if you are in leadership and God has charged you with keeping His flock and tending His sheep then to let wolves creep in and sow seeds of the devil would be on your hands. That is the responsibility of leadership to prepare and equip the saints with sound doctrine keeping out all things of the enemy until they are ready to go out and do the work of the ministry to those who are lost.

Wolves? There was a time when YOU...me...everyone on this board, denied Messiah. If those who led us to him had taken your position, we would still be lost. Denial of Messiah is what EVERY sinner is doing my friend. If they weren't denying him, they would be in him and he in them. (any sinner I speak of)

You see something to fear in this couple...I see love for people, a love for God...and a changing heart. Before I had even thought about starting this thread (which was on the spot last night) I had said to my wife that it wouldn't surprise me if they repented and grab ahold of Messiah's hem within the next couple of months. We have to let God do his thing, and as long as these people aren't bringing anyone else down to their beliefs...there is no issue!

But, we disagree my friend. Not a problem on my end.

Peace to you.
Ken

kenrank
Dec 15th 2008, 06:33 PM
And I stand upon Paul's words. "Expel the wicked man from among you."

The wicked? The wicked serve other gods, they murder, lie, cheat, steal. The only difference between what YOU believe and what THEY believe is you believe Messiah has come, they believe Messiah is yet to come. And, that is as of today Steve. I see definitive signs of change in their position.

I am actually a little surprised by many of these types of responses. Where is the love God instilled in your hearts? Where is the patience? Where is the speak of taking it to God in prayer before passing this judgement? We are to righteously judge, but we are not to do ANYTHING related to the body of believers without prayer.

I don't know...maybe it turns out God sent them to our congregation because he knew we wouldn't send them packing. That they needed TIME to undo the spiritual damage caused by the J4J.

Peace.
ken

watchinginawe
Dec 15th 2008, 06:34 PM
Again, who are we to place a time limit on anyone who, by their own choice, is attending our assembly? They had been there about 6 months when I learned they didn't believe Messiah had come....but it wasn't THEM who told me. The only person who knew, was the congregation leader, who shared it with me while "Bob" and he were having a discussion about Paul. Appearently, the first day they came they went to him and privately asked persmission to come. Our pastor said as long as you don't try to teach others that viewpoint, I don't have a problem. They agreed not to, and have never gone back on that agreement.I am just curious, but did they participate in the Lord's Supper during this time?

God Bless!

VerticalReality
Dec 15th 2008, 06:36 PM
There was a time when YOU...me...everyone on this board, denied Messiah. If those who led us to him had taken your position, we would still be lost.

Not at all. The early church had no problem preaching the gospel and seeing folks saved outside the fellowship of believers. I have no problem going out on the streets and preaching the gospel to the lost in front of the bars and such and seeing the power of the Lord work to deliver them the truth. It is the error of today's church that thinks in order to reach the lost we have to invite a herd of them to Sunday service.


Denial of Messiah is what EVERY sinner is doing my friend. If they weren't denying him, they would be in him and he in them. (any sinner I speak of)

And every bit of leaven is supposed to be purged. If a homosexual or fornicator wants to come to church to hear the gospel because they feel they need to turn their life over to the Lord . . . well, awesome! They are welcome. However, if an open homosexual or fornicator wants to come to play church and look all religious while living out their sinful lifestyle like it's okay . . . well, they won't stay in that church long if it's up to me. Do that and you will then find a lot of other folks in your church who aren't as willing to resist sin as they were prior. Many will do the ol' "compare themselves by themselves" thing and then next thing you know you have a church full of blatant sinners living like demons. Unfortunately, that sounds like a good portion of the churches in America.


You see something to fear in this couple...I see love for people, a love for God...and a changing heart.

I don't see something to fear. I see something to dislike. I do not like an antichrist spirit that is trying to lead people astray. Such a spirit will not be welcome anywhere near those I am called to pastor.


We have to let God do his thing, and as long as these people aren't bringing anyone else down to their beliefs...there is no issue!

God can do His thing in many places, and we are called to preach the gospel outside those church walls. You don't have to invite folks who deny the Lord Jesus Christ into the fellowship of believers in order for them to hear and know the truth.

kenrank
Dec 15th 2008, 06:38 PM
As to the homeless scenario - they love the stinky, smelly guy who loves the Lord if he was of Christ. Thus, they can get him off the street, offer him a shower and clothes that are clean, keep him away from dispair and give him hope to get off the booze. So long as he strives, as would apply to every single person who claims Christ, to be like Christ and shows fruit - he can stay in fellowship. Same with any sinner who walks in the door. If they love the sin - they aren't of Christ.

In God's time - the Jewish family may come to know Christ. Right now - they don't. Nobody has said to dump them on their backsides. Continue to minister to them, but not in the context of what was designed for the fellowship of the saints.

3BR...we disagree....but I love the thoughtfulness in your words. Again, these people do not teach, they attend, they sing, and they fellowship with us afterward. "Bob" has been asked to open or close in prayer a few times...but seeing we are praying to the same one God, I don't have an issue. Do I like that they don't have the knowledge of Messiah I have been blessed to be given? Of course not...but our patience with them and our ability to love them regardless, is exactly what is probably causing their change in view. I know "she" has mentioned how loved she felt from us.

You know...somebody on this thread said they would err on the side of caution...meaning, have them leave so as not to affect others. The others are pretty strong in their faith, deep in the word...not milk drinkers. I think caution is allowing them to stay and NOT being the reason they ultimately reject Messiah once and for all.

Peace.
Ken

Steve M
Dec 15th 2008, 06:40 PM
The wicked? The wicked serve other gods, they murder, lie, cheat, steal. The only difference between what YOU believe and what THEY believe is you believe Messiah has come, they believe Messiah is yet to come. And, that is as of today Steve. I see definitive signs of change in their position.

I am actually a little surprised by many of these types of responses. Where is the love God instilled in your hearts? Where is the patience? Where is the speak of taking it to God in prayer before passing this judgement? We are to righteously judge, but we are not to do ANYTHING related to the body of believers without prayer.

I don't know...maybe it turns out God sent them to our congregation because he knew we wouldn't send them packing. That they needed TIME to undo the spiritual damage caused by the J4J.

Peace.
ken
John's words concerning those who deny Messiah were harsher, not nicer, than Paul's words concerning the sinner.

At any rate, that bit about the sinner was more specifically pointed to your comment using the couple as an allegory or metaphor for the homosexual.

kenrank
Dec 15th 2008, 06:41 PM
Not at all. The early church had no problem preaching the gospel and seeing folks saved outside the fellowship of believers. I have no problem going out on the streets and preaching the gospel to the lost in front of the bars and such and seeing the power of the Lord work to deliver them the truth. It is the error of today's church that thinks in order to reach the lost we have to invite a herd of them to Sunday service.



And every bit of leaven is supposed to be purged. If a homosexual or fornicator wants to come to church to hear the gospel because they feel they need to turn their life over to the Lord . . . well, awesome! They are welcome. However, if an open homosexual or fornicator wants to come to play church and look all religious while living out their sinful lifestyle like it's okay . . . well, they won't stay in that church long if it's up to me. Do that and you will then find a lot of other folks in your church who aren't as willing to resist sin as they were prior. Many will do the ol' "compare themselves by themselves" thing and then next thing you know you have a church full of blatant sinners living like demons. Unfortunately, that sounds like a good portion of the churches in America.



I don't see something to fear. I see something to dislike. I do not like an antichrist spirit that is trying to lead people astray. Such a spirit will not be welcome anywhere near those I am called to pastor.



God can do His thing in many places, and we are called to preach the gospel outside those church walls. You don't have to invite folks who deny the Lord Jesus Christ into the fellowship of believers in order for them to hear and know the truth.

You have articulated your position very well. I disagree...fortunately for them, they are at our congregation and not yours. No offense intended! I expected these responses, but not to this degree. Fascinating!

We'll chat in another thread VR. Until then...Peace.
Ken

Diolectic
Dec 15th 2008, 06:45 PM
And even Paul had limits and in most places he ultimately shook the dust off his feet and walked away and that's in Acts as well. Context is a beautiful thing. ;) Keep in mind as well... in Acts we see where Paul went to their "house" and not they in the gathering of Christian believers.If you don't let sinners in the church (them coming to you), are you going to come to them?

As long as they do not call themselves Christians and not in any blaitant sin, by all means keep them in the chust for persuation!

kenrank
Dec 15th 2008, 06:46 PM
John's words concerning those who deny Messiah were harsher, not nicer, than Paul's words concerning the sinner.

At any rate, that bit about the sinner was more specifically pointed to your comment using the couple as an allegory or metaphor for the homosexual.

UnderstoofdSteve. ANY sin is sin....rejecting Messiah (though they never had a relationship with him before...no "adult" committement...but if not believing Jesus is Messiah is sin...and homosexuality, drunkeness, addictions....all sins....do you turn them all away?

The temple is our body...not a building. The church a people...not a building. In fact, most churches are geared toward the sinner only on Sundays. Not all....take it easy...but many teach a variation on the same theme every Sunday...and that is ok. That's when people who don't know God think you are supposed to go and the message on Sunday morning should be geared toward the lost.

This couple harms nobody, and wants to be in OUR fellowship. I see this as a good thing, a chance to work through their damaged hearts and help them understand what they lack. To ask them to leave when they cause no harm is un-graceful...in my view.

Anyway, I have to go and eat...you guys wore me out!;)

Peace.
Ken

ProjectPeter
Dec 15th 2008, 06:48 PM
The wicked? The wicked serve other gods, they murder, lie, cheat, steal. The only difference between what YOU believe and what THEY believe is you believe Messiah has come, they believe Messiah is yet to come. And, that is as of today Steve. I see definitive signs of change in their position.

I am actually a little surprised by many of these types of responses. Where is the love God instilled in your hearts? Where is the patience? Where is the speak of taking it to God in prayer before passing this judgement? We are to righteously judge, but we are not to do ANYTHING related to the body of believers without prayer.

I don't know...maybe it turns out God sent them to our congregation because he knew we wouldn't send them packing. That they needed TIME to undo the spiritual damage caused by the J4J.

Peace.
kenKen,

Why have you yet to respond to any of the Scripture that have been posted? I hear your emotional appeal here... but you seem to blow right by actual Scripture that addresses these very things. Is this how your church operates?

ProjectPeter
Dec 15th 2008, 06:50 PM
You know...somebody on this thread said they would err on the side of caution...meaning, have them leave so as not to affect others. The others are pretty strong in their faith, deep in the word...not milk drinkers. I think caution is allowing them to stay and NOT being the reason they ultimately reject Messiah once and for all.

Peace.
Ken
Need to be honest with you here Ken. If they are allowing this for as long as you speak of... then folks aren't nearly as "deep" in Scripture as you appear to think they are.

Firefighter
Dec 15th 2008, 06:55 PM
We teach the body... equip the body to do the work of Christ. That is the calling for the apostle, prophet, evangelist, pastor and teacher.

Project Peter, I have to disagree with this statement.

Paul was an Apostle and spread the gospel to pagans and even used their writings and philosophers to do so.

Prophets often speak about those that are evil repenting.

Evangelists... well... they evangelize. I have never met a Christian that needed an evangelist.

Steve M
Dec 15th 2008, 06:55 PM
UnderstoofdSteve. ANY sin is sin....rejecting Messiah (though they never had a relationship with him before...no "adult" committement...but if not believing Jesus is Messiah is sin...and homosexuality, drunkeness, addictions....all sins....do you turn them all away?

The temple is our body...not a building. The church a people...not a building. In fact, most churches are geared toward the sinner only on Sundays. Not all....take it easy...but many teach a variation on the same theme every Sunday...and that is ok. That's when people who don't know God think you are supposed to go and the message on Sunday morning should be geared toward the lost.

This couple harms nobody, and wants to be in OUR fellowship. I see this as a good thing, a chance to work through their damaged hearts and help them understand what they lack. To ask them to leave when they cause no harm is un-graceful...in my view.

Anyway, I have to go and eat...you guys wore me out!;)

Peace.
Ken
Paul and John spoke of not eating with certain people.

Who are those people? How do we tell who they are, using scripture?

VerticalReality
Dec 15th 2008, 06:58 PM
I disagree...fortunately for them, they are at our congregation and not yours. No offense intended!

None taken. I'm confident that the position I am taking is the one commanded of me by my Lord. To do otherwise would not be doing either the sinner a favor or the ones I'm called to pastor. In fact, it would do harm.

Just another word of caution . . .

Just because folks aren't standing in front of your congregation shouting that Jesus Christ is not the Messiah doesn't mean there isn't harm being done. One might have to look past the naked eye in order to see it. I doubt those false teachers in Scripture were standing behind a microphone or a pulpit shouting their position to the masses. It doesn't take much to get folks to doubt. Especially those who are young in the Lord.

What would you think about such a decision if you find out a couple of years down the road that many of your church's people have fallen away from the Lord because they just aren't sure about it all anymore?

It didn't take a lot of lying for that serpent to have Eve eating of the forbidden fruit.

VerticalReality
Dec 15th 2008, 06:59 PM
If you don't let sinners in the church (them coming to you), are you going to come to them?

Yep . . . :hmm:

Firefighter
Dec 15th 2008, 06:59 PM
We are a bunch of hypocrites. To be Christian is to be Christ-like. How long did Christ put up with OUR disbelief? How many times did WE reject him and yet he was long-suffering with us? I sure am glad Christ never gave up on me while I was running from Him for years...

VerticalReality
Dec 15th 2008, 07:04 PM
Evangelists... well... they evangelize. I have never met a Christian that needed an evangelist.

That's probably because today's definition of an evangelist doesn't really fit what we see an evangelist doing in Scripture. Paul clearly said in Ephesians 4 that the Lord called some to be an evangelist for the equipping of the saints. It doesn't state that He equipped some to be evangelists so they could go out and preach the gospel to the lost. Additionally, Paul instructed Timothy to do the work of an evangelist . . . yet, in context he was speaking of Timothy's duty to the body of Christ that he was leading.

The only reason folks seem to think that the purpose of an evangelist is to preach to the lost is because Philip was called an evangelist in Acts 21. However, the entire early church preached to the lost. Does that then make them evangelists? No . . . it doesn't.

The calling of an evangelist is to equip the body of Christ just as the other calls do.

ProjectPeter
Dec 15th 2008, 07:06 PM
Project Peter, I have to disagree with this statement.I'm shocked! :rolleyes::lol:




Paul was an Apostle and spread the gospel to pagans and even used their writings and philosophers to do so.And once again... you are not hearing at all what I am making really clear! Paul did not do this in the gathering of believers. He did it in their own place. On the streets... on Mars Hill... etc. He did not do this in the gathering of believers. That was reserved for the believers. ;)




Prophets often speak about those that are evil repenting.

Evangelists... well... they evangelize. I have never met a Christian that needed an evangelist.Uh... then you define an evangelist wrongly... either that or Paul was wrong when he wrote to the Ephesian church.

Ephesians 4:11 And He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers,
12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ;
13 until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fulness of Christ.

What did He give us apostles, prophets, evangelist, pastors and teachers for? I bolded it for you so as to make it easy to find. ;)

He wrote about it elsewhere... for example in 1 Corinthians 12. Seems pretty clear to me when speaking of the "BODY" of Christ.

Diolectic
Dec 15th 2008, 07:10 PM
Originally Posted by Diolectic
If you don't let sinners in the church (them coming to you), are you going to come to themYep . . . :hmm:Will kenrank be going to them who is kicked out of the church?

What is the point of kicking them out in the first place?

VerticalReality
Dec 15th 2008, 07:14 PM
Will kenrank be going to them who is kicked out of the church?

That would be up to him. If we are obedient . . . we will go out and do the work of ministry when we have been equipped to do so.


What is the point of kicking them out in the first place?

So they do not have any sort of negative influence on others within the body. It's sort of difficult to equip the body of believers to do the work of ministry if they have a bunch of conflicting lies and deceitful demonstration going on around them. It will confuse folks, and it will even cause some to fall away.

Steve M
Dec 15th 2008, 07:15 PM
Will kenrank be going to them who is kicked out of the church?

What is the point of kicking them out in the first place?
Uh... 1 Corinthians 5.

Yeah.

Already posted it once.

ProjectPeter
Dec 15th 2008, 07:16 PM
If you don't let sinners in the church (them coming to you), are you going to come to them?Uh... I would hope so. Afterall... that whole "Go ye into the world and preach the gospel" wasn't just put in Scripture to fill up space.


As long as they do not call themselves Christians and not in any blaitant sin, by all means keep them in the chust for persuation!It would be very sad if one was in a church where they would feel comfortable enough for this to even be an issue. That would be a whole different issue though. ;)

kenrank
Dec 15th 2008, 07:17 PM
Ken,

Why have you yet to respond to any of the Scripture that have been posted? I hear your emotional appeal here... but you seem to blow right by actual Scripture that addresses these very things. Is this how your church operates?

I have not seen any scripture that applies. Think this out before answering...I am not being emotional about this, I have had some time to work through this. Please, you leave the emotion aside for a minute and give thought to these words.

We view the words anti-Christ to mean X, but can it mean Y? In your mind, is a Jew an anti-Christ? I say no...I say they are not opposed to Messiah, they simply have a veil over their eyes and can not see Yahushua (Jesus) for who he is. But they are not against him, opposed to him. They simply lack an understanding you have. This couple is no different, they do not oppose Messiah, nor do they spread malice, strife, envy, wickedness, etc. They simply lack an understanding we have been blessed to have.

A true anti-Christ has made a conscience descision to stand against Jesus. Not any annointed of God, but this one in particular. They reject Yahushua, stand against him, oppose him...that is what the spirit of anti-Messiah is. This couple, nor the Jewish nation, oppose Messiah in this manner. In addition, in Jer 31, God makes the new covenant, in part, with the house of Judah. (Jew is the short form of Judah) If anti-Christ is defined as many denominations do...then God is about to make a new covenant with anti-Christs. But again, they do NOT oppose him...they simply do not understand he has come once. Zech 12:10 speaks of the time their eyes will be opened. As long as this couple do not interfere with the spiritual developement of anyone, they are no threat. When they become one, I will be the first to lead them to the door!

Peace.
Ken

ProjectPeter
Dec 15th 2008, 07:20 PM
We are a bunch of hypocrites. To be Christian is to be Christ-like. How long did Christ put up with OUR disbelief? How many times did WE reject him and yet he was long-suffering with us? I sure am glad Christ never gave up on me while I was running from Him for years...I don't (nor should anyone) give up on folks that I know who are in the world and are sinners. As long as they will talk to me then I see that as another opportunity to share the gospel with them. That being said... that is in the world. We're not talking about giving up on anyone. Not talking about keeping our little old gospel to ourselves. We're talking about how we conduct ourselves in the gathering of believers. Not the world. Not the arena's. Not the temples. There... we share the gospel with folks as long as they will listen. But in the gathering of believers... this is for equipping the saints. Everywhere else... preach away!

kenrank
Dec 15th 2008, 07:21 PM
Need to be honest with you here Ken. If they are allowing this for as long as you speak of... then folks aren't nearly as "deep" in Scripture as you appear to think they are.

No offense, his recall of the Tanach is beyond any Seminary professor I have met! He taught himself Hebrew, and his understanding of the Tanach is simply well beyond the layperson. You assume a bit too much. Tell ya what, I invite you to a service. I will have you put up in a hotel, provide for your transportation...all you have to do it get here!

peace.
Ken

ProjectPeter
Dec 15th 2008, 07:26 PM
I have not seen any scripture that applies. Think this out before answering...I am not being emotional about this, I have had some time to work through this. Please, you leave the emotion aside for a minute and give thought to these words.

We view the words anti-Christ to mean X, but can it mean Y? In your mind, is a Jew an anti-Christ? I say no...I say they are not opposed to Messiah, they simply have a veil over their eyes and can not see Yahushua (Jesus) for who he is. But they are not against him, opposed to him. They simply lack an understanding you have. This couple is no different, they do not oppose Messiah, nor do they spread malice, strife, envy, wickedness, etc. They simply lack an understanding we have been blessed to have.

A true anti-Christ has made a conscience descision to stand against Jesus. Not any annointed of God, but this one in particular. They reject Yahushua, stand against him, oppose him...that is what the spirit of anti-Messiah is. This couple, nor the Jewish nation, oppose Messiah in this manner. In addition, in Jer 31, God makes the new covenant, in part, with the house of Judah. (Jew is the short form of Judah) If anti-Christ is defined as many denominations do...then God is about to make a new covenant with anti-Christs. But again, they do NOT oppose him...they simply do not understand he has come once. Zech 12:10 speaks of the time their eyes will be opened. As long as this couple do not interfere with the spiritual developement of anyone, they are no threat. When they become one, I will be the first to lead them to the door!

Peace.
KenAnd yet Paul, still walked away many times because of their rejection of Jesus as the Messiah. And no... Antichrist means simply what it says. Their rejection of Jesus as the Messiah is in fact antichrist. John was right clear on that.

1 John 2:22 Who is the liar but the one who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, the one who denies the Father and the Son.
23 Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father; the one who confesses the Son has the Father also.

Isn't that what it very clearly says? Nothing added... nothing taken away. If they deny JESUS is the Christ then they are antichrist.

kenrank
Dec 15th 2008, 07:28 PM
Paul and John spoke of not eating with certain people.

Who are those people? How do we tell who they are, using scripture?

And Paul rebuked Peter for not eating with gentiles. With was not a "God" command, it was a man made command. Peter's vision in Acts 10-11 had nothing to do with clean and unclean animals, it had to do with man made law concerning gentiles being "unlcean." There isn't anything in the Torah about not eating with gentiles. Not eating foods offered to idols...or doing so in a pagan temple...different story.

As for knowing them, like I said, we spend 4 hours after service fellowshipping, eating, watching our kids play. I have gotten to know them real well, and have even talked to a small degree concerning Paul, the crux of his issue. I don't push it, because again, no sense in answering questions not asked. When you answer unasked qustion, they land on ears not ready to hear.

Peace Steve.
Ken

kenrank
Dec 15th 2008, 07:30 PM
And yet Paul, still walked away many times because of their rejection of Jesus as the Messiah. And no... Antichrist means simply what it says. Their rejection of Jesus as the Messiah is in fact antichrist. John was right clear on that.

1 John 2:22 Who is the liar but the one who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, the one who denies the Father and the Son.
23 Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father; the one who confesses the Son has the Father also.

Isn't that what it very clearly says? Nothing added... nothing taken away. If they deny JESUS is the Christ then they are antichrist.

Check your Strongs...an anti-Christ is one who stands in opposition to Christ. If you are not for him, you are against...in opposition to him.

Peace.
Ken

ProjectPeter
Dec 15th 2008, 07:32 PM
No offense, his recall of the Tanach is beyond any Seminary professor I have met! He taught himself Hebrew, and his understanding of the Tanach is simply well beyond the layperson. You assume a bit too much. Tell ya what, I invite you to a service. I will have you put up in a hotel, provide for your transportation...all you have to do it get here!

peace.
Ken
Most every Pharisee that Jesus called children of satan had that same sort of recall of Scripture. Not calling your pastor that... just making the point that ones knowledge and recall of what they know... doesn't much matter in the grand scheme of things.

As to my visiting... I'd be glad to visit when I have some time to free up. Wouldn't even require a hotel or gas. ;) You aren't likely that far away from where I am.

IamBill
Dec 15th 2008, 07:32 PM
:hmm: Would Jesus ever reject someone who came to simply sit and listen ?

I can't see that ever happening. :dunno:

Steve M
Dec 15th 2008, 07:33 PM
And Paul rebuked Peter for not eating with gentiles. With was not a "God" command, it was a man made command. Peter's vision in Acts 10-11 had nothing to do with clean and unclean animals, it had to do with man made law concerning gentiles being "unlcean." There isn't anything in the Torah about not eating with gentiles. Not eating foods offered to idols...or doing so in a pagan temple...different story.

As for knowing them, like I said, we spend 4 hours after service fellowshipping, eating, watching our kids play. I have gotten to know them real well, and have even talked to a small degree concerning Paul, the crux of his issue. I don't push it, because again, no sense in answering questions not asked. When you answer unasked qustion, they land on ears not ready to hear.

Peace Steve.
Ken
...

I think you're thinking of a different set of scriptures than I am.

10If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not take him into your house or welcome him. 11Anyone who welcomes him shares in his wicked work.

11But now I am writing you that you must not associate with anyone who calls himself a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat.

I was perhaps loose with my words; Paul says don't eat with an immoral brother. John says not to even let them i your house.

ProjectPeter
Dec 15th 2008, 07:48 PM
Check your Strongs...an anti-Christ is one who stands in opposition to Christ. If you are not for him, you are against...in opposition to him.

Peace.
Ken
If you deny Him... you are in opposition to Him. I well know what the word means. ;)

ProjectPeter
Dec 15th 2008, 07:58 PM
:hmm: Would Jesus ever reject someone who came to simply sit and listen ?

I can't see that ever happening. :dunno:Well Bill... I can only go by what I have seen written by Ken. Here is what I have so far.


These are gifted Jewish believers who have an ability to use Paul's writings against a Christian. To some degree these people have good points, there ARE aspects of Paul's writings not understood by Christianity today because some of things he was addressing is not understood.

One that sits and listens is not one that I would know to "use Paul's writings against a Christian." It would be one that I wouldn't know if they have "good" points etc.


Add to that the other such comments that they "don't deny the Messiah but just that the Messiah hasn't come" etc... problem with that... He has come. They do in fact deny the Messiah because that Messiah is Jesus who has sure enough come. That they believe in a yet to come Messiah doesn't matter in that light. They deny Christ and it's really that simple. Them being "part" of the body of Christ... that would be a broken body. Deformed... handicapped... a number of words come to mind.

kenrank
Dec 15th 2008, 08:26 PM
Most every Pharisee that Jesus called children of satan had that same sort of recall of Scripture. Not calling your pastor that... just making the point that ones knowledge and recall of what they know... doesn't much matter in the grand scheme of things.

As to my visiting... I'd be glad to visit when I have some time to free up. Wouldn't even require a hotel or gas. ;) You aren't likely that far away from where I am.

The Pharisees get a bad wrap. Not all held the the Jewish Hallikhah of that day. What messiah rebuked, and what Paul addressed in several of his letters, was the man-made law added to God's law. Walking a certain amount of steps on the Sabbath, not eating with gentiles and considering them unclean, added food resrictions...stuff added to Torah. This, and the air of spiritual superiority is exactly what Messiah rebuked. The bottom line to the developement of this thread....(sometimes I wonder why I bother???) is that to be an anti-Messiah means you are against or opposed to Him. This is couple is not opposed to him, they just don't YET see that he has come. Like I said, I have seen changes in their atttitude based on questions they ask, and certain actions...like wanting the CD I mentioned. If we did what many in this thread had suggested, they would either be in a Jewish synogogue with no chance to hear about Yahushua, or would be home either studying on their own or done with it all, entirely.

Peace.
Ken

kenrank
Dec 15th 2008, 08:31 PM
[quote=ProjectPeter;1906665]

I just looked you up, it takes me 2.5 hours to get to Knoxville (we actually have family there) so whatever time it takes to get there from Athens, add it on. You are welcome anytime...and if you can stomach us, be prepared for a hotel anyway. We often do not leave until 12:30 or 1:00am Saturday morning.

Peace.
Ken

kenrank
Dec 15th 2008, 08:34 PM
I don't (nor should anyone) give up on folks that I know who are in the world and are sinners. As long as they will talk to me then I see that as another opportunity to share the gospel with them. That being said... that is in the world. We're not talking about giving up on anyone. Not talking about keeping our little old gospel to ourselves. We're talking about how we conduct ourselves in the gathering of believers. Not the world. Not the arena's. Not the temples. There... we share the gospel with folks as long as they will listen. But in the gathering of believers... this is for equipping the saints. Everywhere else... preach away!

Then by this I take it that on Sunday morning or whenever you worship, your church does NOT allow anyone who does not already know Messiah into your "temple???"

peace.
Ken

ProjectPeter
Dec 15th 2008, 08:35 PM
The Pharisees get a bad wrap. Not all held the the Jewish Hallikhah of that day. What messiah rebuked, and what Paul addressed in several of his letters, was the man-made law added to God's law. Walking a certain amount of steps on the Sabbath, not eating with gentiles and considering them unclean, added food resrictions...stuff added to Torah. This, and the air of spiritual superiority is exactly what Messiah rebuked. The bottom line to the developement of this thread....(sometimes I wonder why I bother???) is that to be an anti-Messiah means you are against or opposed to Him. This is couple is not opposed to him, they just don't YET see that he has come. Like I said, I have seen changes in their atttitude based on questions they ask, and certain actions...like wanting the CD I mentioned. If we did what many in this thread had suggested, they would either be in a Jewish synogogue with no chance to hear about Yahushua, or would be home either studying on their own or done with it all, entirely.

Peace.
KenNot sure why you bothered either but you did indeed ask the question and by that asking... I figured you actually wanted folks to answer eh?

If they don't believe that He has come already then they don't believe in Jesus. If they don't believe in Jesus... what do those passages that I posted make clear?

You keep saying that they aren't opposed to the Messiah to come but just opposed to the notion that Jesus is He who has come already... simple stuff here really. They are in fact opposed to Jesus being the Messiah and they deny Him. Repeat question I asked about those passages. ;)

ProjectPeter
Dec 15th 2008, 08:36 PM
And by the way... the Pharisee gets a bad rap because many of them earned that bad rap. ;)

kenrank
Dec 15th 2008, 08:38 PM
1 John 2:22-23 clearly defines these people as Anti-Christ.

Did Yahushua (Jesus) come into existence 2000 years ago or is he eternal? If the latter, you have no point. (respectfully)

John writes that if you deny him you deny the father....but they don't deny Yahushua is Messiah...they deny he has come. And AGAIN....I am not the onl one who has seen a recent change in their approach to him.

Ken

ProjectPeter
Dec 15th 2008, 08:38 PM
[quote=ProjectPeter;1906665]

I just looked you up, it takes me 2.5 hours to get to Knoxville (we actually have family there) so whatever time it takes to get there from Athens, add it on. You are welcome anytime...and if you can stomach us, be prepared for a hotel anyway. We often do not leave until 12:30 or 1:00am Saturday morning.

Peace.
Ken
Why would you even ponder the thought that I couldn't stomach you guys?

If you want... you can shoot me the information in the Chat to Minister's section of the board. I'll make sure to save all the information.

kenrank
Dec 15th 2008, 08:39 PM
And by the way... the Pharisee gets a bad rap because many of them earned that bad rap. ;)

Of course, but the reason is as I stated, man made laws held over the heads of all others to make keeping God's law burdensome.

Ken

ProjectPeter
Dec 15th 2008, 08:40 PM
Then by this I take it that on Sunday morning or whenever you worship, your church does NOT allow anyone who does not already know Messiah into your "temple???"

peace.
KenThat's why I made it clear earlier that one shouldn't reject anyone coming in the church who were seeking after Christ... why a time times several times etc. Yet there comes a time....

Don't get rankled now and start making stuff up. ;)

kenrank
Dec 15th 2008, 08:41 PM
:hmm: Would Jesus ever reject someone who came to simply sit and listen ?

I can't see that ever happening. :dunno:

They sit, they listen, they sing, and lately have begun asking questions which means answers. if we did as many here state, these questions would remain unanswered, and our asking them leave is then the reason for unanswered questions. No, they do no harm, don't spread dis-ease...do not cause strife...they are welcomed members of our little family and I for one am glad to have them with us.

Ken

ProjectPeter
Dec 15th 2008, 08:41 PM
Did Yahushua (Jesus) come into existence 2000 years ago or is he eternal? If the latter, you have no point. (respectfully)

John writes that if you deny him you deny the father....but they don't deny Yahushua is Messiah...they deny he has come. And AGAIN....I am not the onl one who has seen a recent change in their approach to him.

Ken
Come now Ken... you're simply playing with Semantic here! They deny Jesus is the Christ. If they deny that He came... they deny Him who is, was, and is to come again.

ears2hear
Dec 15th 2008, 08:42 PM
Wolves? There was a time when YOU...me...everyone on this board, denied Messiah. If those who led us to him had taken your position, we would still be lost. Denial of Messiah is what EVERY sinner is doing my friend. If they weren't denying him, they would be in him and he in them. (any sinner I speak of)

Ken

Ken, I just wanted to respond to this part in your post...truly and honestly...as an unbeliever, I did not KNOW that there was a Christ who had died for my sins. IWhen He was introduced to me, I became a Believer. So, not everyone denied the Messiah at one time, however, these people deny the Messiah and that is what I find troubling. I also wonder if they partake in communion?
It almost comes off that these people (as wonderful and loving and God fearing as they are) want their cake and to eat it, too. Just my humble opinion. It's pretty hard to know for sure because we do not see them face to face, but according to the things you have posted, I still find the whole thing worriesome.:(

kenrank
Dec 15th 2008, 08:43 PM
That's why I made it clear earlier that one shouldn't reject anyone coming in the church who were seeking after Christ... why a time times several times etc. Yet there comes a time....

Don't get rankled now and start making stuff up. ;)

Rankled? Poor use of my last name. I never make stuff up...and if weren't for the emoticon, I would probably have been...rankled! PP...who decides the time? You or God?
Ken

kenrank
Dec 15th 2008, 08:45 PM
Ken, I just wanted to respond to this part in your post...truly and honestly...as an unbeliever, I did not KNOW that there was a Christ who had died for my sins. IWhen He was introduced to me, I became a Believer. So, not everyone denied the Messiah at one time, however, these people deny the Messiah and that is what I find troubling. I also wonder if they partake in communion?
It almost comes off that these people (as wonderful and loving and God fearing as they are) want their cake and to eat it, too. Just my humble opinion. It's pretty hard to know for sure because we do not see them face to face, but according to the things you have posted, I still find the whole thing worriesome.:(

But you miss the point. They don't deny him...they deny he has come. There is a big difference there. An anti-Christ stands in opposition to him...they do not oppose him, they just don't believe he has come YET. if this perspective is not true, the House of Judah is one big House of Anti-Christ and God is going to make a new covenant with them. Are you ready to take that step?

peace.
Ken

ears2hear
Dec 15th 2008, 08:47 PM
3BR...we disagree....but I love the thoughtfulness in your words. Again, these people do not teach, they attend, they sing, and they fellowship with us afterward. "Bob" has been asked to open or close in prayer a few times...but seeing we are praying to the same one God, I don't have an issue. Do I like that they don't have the knowledge of Messiah I have been blessed to be given? Of course not...but our patience with them and our ability to love them regardless, is exactly what is probably causing their change in view. I know "she" has mentioned how loved she felt from us.


Peace.
Ken

But you see....We are to pray To God IN Jesus name. That is the issue...at least for me. They ARE participating in the body of Believers while holding fast to a lie.

kenrank
Dec 15th 2008, 08:51 PM
Come now Ken... you're simply playing with Semantic here! They deny Jesus is the Christ. If they deny that He came... they deny Him who is, was, and is to come again.

The Jew does not oppose Messiah...if you don't believe ME...go ask one! Ask, "do you deny Messiah?" Be prepared, they might laugh in your face. There is no denial that there is a Messiah, there is a lack of knowledge concerning whether or not he has come yet.

Anyway, you all have made your point. I accept your positions and respectfully disagree with them. I am happy they are with us...and when and if they profess Messiah I will be sure to post that blessing of fruit to let you know. If they don't...I will be sure to admit I was wrong. I have NO pride in this...I don't need to be right. Well, actually, I do. I need to be right in that I know that what we are doing is the will of God and not some knee jerk emotional response. This has been prayerfully considered by our pastor....the elders...and of late, a few others. We know they can say nothing to shake us, so we fear nothing but not allowing them a fellowship through which God can work on them. Evereything is in HIS TIME, not ours. There can be no "time limit" on one's salvation...that is so, denominal!

peace.
Ken

VerticalReality
Dec 15th 2008, 08:51 PM
But you miss the point. They don't deny him...they deny he has come. There is a big difference there. An anti-Christ stands in opposition to him...they do not oppose him, they just don't believe he has come YET. if this perspective is not true, the House of Judah is one big House of Anti-Christ and God is going to make a new covenant with them. Are you ready to take that step?

peace.
Ken

Um . . . didn't those Pharisees that Jesus rebuked quite often simply deny that He was the Messiah that was to come? What then makes these folks you're talking about different than those Pharisees? Didn't those Pharisees also believe in a Messiah to come but just denied that Jesus was this Messiah?

kenrank
Dec 15th 2008, 08:55 PM
Not sure why you bothered either but you did indeed ask the question and by that asking... I figured you actually wanted folks to answer eh?

Answers, a feel for where everyone stands. But debate over a situation you have no first hand knowledge of? I didn't ask for that. I have no problem debating the merits of it...but understand, you have what little have written and no first hand knowledge. Technically, you aren't a witness to it...you would need to sit down and meet with them. if you did, I am confident, you would shrug your shoulders like I did.

Anyway, thanks for the discussion. It was...eye opening to say the least.

Ken

kenrank
Dec 15th 2008, 09:01 PM
Um . . . didn't those Pharisees that Jesus rebuked quite often simply deny that He was the Messiah that was to come? What then makes these folks you're talking about different than those Pharisees? Didn't those Pharisees also believe in a Messiah to come but just denied that Jesus was this Messiah?

VR...we have chated on other threads, have I come off as that big a bumbling fool to you? The Pharisees were broken into two groups, those who adhered to the spirit of the law (of the school of Hillel) and those who held to the letter. (school of Shamai) Those rebuked were ALWAYS of the letter of the law...which was also those who added the man made burdens to it. Some Pharisees actually believed VR, that we can see in scripture. But those that held to the letter of the law believed Messiah was coming to free them of their physical bondage, in that day and time, from Roman rule. When instead he speaks of being born again and repenting, when he speaks of freedom from eternal bondage (death) and not from pysical captivity, they rejected him. Context is everything, just as Paul, who studied under Hillel's grandson Gamiliel would have told you.

Peace.
Ken

IamBill
Dec 15th 2008, 09:14 PM
Well Bill... I can only go by what I have seen written by Ken. Here is what I have so far.



One that sits and listens is not one that I would know to "use Paul's writings against a Christian." It would be one that I wouldn't know if they have "good" points etc.


Add to that the other such comments that they "don't deny the Messiah but just that the Messiah hasn't come" etc... problem with that... He has come. They do in fact deny the Messiah because that Messiah is Jesus who has sure enough come. That they believe in a yet to come Messiah doesn't matter in that light. They deny Christ and it's really that simple. Them being "part" of the body of Christ... that would be a broken body. Deformed... handicapped... a number of words come to mind.

Certainly are not just sitting there listening then.

...and yes I share the concern, wasn't meant in opposition ;)

ears2hear
Dec 15th 2008, 09:17 PM
Ken: I have asked this in another post and I noticed that someone else did as well, could you please answer for me?

Do they partake of communion? Also, I also wanted to state again, that if your Pastor is allowing this fellow to pray or close a service in prayer...and he is not praying TO God THROUGH Jesus name...I feel that that in itself is a little disturbing.

OK, You asked a question and I responded to it.:) We certainly do not agree, but that doesn't mean that I don't respect you!:hug:
In my view of scripture, it is semantics when you say that they do not deny The Christ.

Bless you and yes please, post if this man and wife become born again!:pp

keck553
Dec 15th 2008, 09:24 PM
I can only tell a story from a personal experience. My wife's last congregation (she moved) had an old woman attending. She went there because her family was there and also because the leadership was kind, gentle and accomodating. She didn't have much money, and the congregation always made sure she was fed and comfortable.

She just happened to be an orthodox Jew. When she wore short sleeves, the serial numbers on her forearm were still visible. She had survived racial hate, religious persecution and other detestible treatments, many in the 'name of Jesus.' She was told God was 'done with Jews', told she was no longer a part of God's promise to Abraham, Isaiac and Jacob.

At some point in her life, She was told God replaced everything she knew of God with the things of the world - and there were no longer any requirements for people to live in God's way.

She was presented with a Messiah that she could not recognize as a Jew; His name was changed, His eyes turned blue from brown, and features raised up to European standards. In her eyes, this Messiah fueled 2000 years of death, forced conversion, slavery and holocaust, and then blamed on her refusal to surrender the way God had her worship Him. And she was quite vocal about that.

So she came to this congregation with fear and trepidation, but starvation is quite a motivator - and in time she realized this assembly worshipped a Messiah who didn't look or act as a foreigner to her. She saw this congregation glorified Messiah in biblical terms, not after man-made traditions.

The day she accepted Jesus as her Messiah and personal saviour was a day unlike any other for anyone in that congregation. With immense sorrow, repentance and immense joy all flushing from her, she made her confession of faith in front of all. The light in her face was visible and her emotions pallatable. The revealation this lady had was like one few have ever seen. I imagine it was right along the lines Joself had with his reunion with his brothers in Egypt.

The woman didn't have to lose one iota of her Jewishness to accept Jesus as her Saviour.

All I know is that God reached down and saved her, dispite the 'church.'

ears2hear
Dec 15th 2008, 09:29 PM
I can only tell a story from a personal experience. My wife's last congregation (she moved) had an old woman attending. She went there because her family was there and also because the leadership was kind, gentle and accomodating. She didn't have much money, and the congregation always made sure she was fed and comfortable.

She just happened to be an orthodox Jew. When she wore short sleeves, the serial numbers on her forearm were still visible. She had survived racial hate, religious persecution and other detestible treatments, many in the 'name of Jesus.' She was told God was 'done with Jews', told she was no longer a part of God's promise to Abraham, Isaiac and Jacob.

At some point in her life, She was told God replaced everything she knew of God with the things of the world - and there were no longer any requirements for people to live in God's way.

She was presented with a Messiah that she could not recognize as a Jew; His name was changed, His eyes turned blue from brown, and features raised up to European standards. In her eyes, this Messiah fueled 2000 years of death, forced conversion, slavery and holocaust, and then blamed on her refusal to surrender the way God had her worship Him. And she was quite vocal about that.

So she came to this congregation with fear and trepidation, but starvation is quite a motivator - and in time she realized this assembly worshipped a Messiah who didn't look or act as a foreigner to her. She saw this congregation glorified Messiah in biblical terms, not after man-made traditions.

The day she accepted Jesus as her Messiah and personal saviour was a day unlike any other for anyone in that congregation. With immense sorrow, repentance and immense joy all flushing from her, she made her confession of faith in front of all. The light in her face was visible and her emotions pallatable. The revealation this lady had was like one few have ever seen. I imagine it was right along the lines Joself had with his reunion with his brothers in Egypt.

The woman didn't have to lose one iota of her Jewishness to accept Jesus as her Saviour.

All I know is that God reached down and saved her, dispite the 'church.'
That was a beautiful story. Thank you for sharing.:)

ProjectPeter
Dec 15th 2008, 09:34 PM
Rankled? Poor use of my last name. I never make stuff up...and if weren't for the emoticon, I would probably have been...rankled! PP...who decides the time? You or God?
Ken
It had nothing to do with your name. Didn't even pay attention to your name save the "Ken" part. As to your making stuff up... if you are getting from anything I've thusfar written that we should never allow a sinner in the doors of the church... just thought I'd check and all since I've also gone way out of my way thusfar to make that distinction that it is those who "stay" amid the congregation.

As to who decides the time... for salvation that's totally in the hands of God. For when and whom to put out of the church... that is for the church to determine... especially those put in the position of tending and feeding them.

ProjectPeter
Dec 15th 2008, 09:36 PM
The Jew does not oppose Messiah...if you don't believe ME...go ask one! Ask, "do you deny Messiah?" Be prepared, they might laugh in your face. There is no denial that there is a Messiah, there is a lack of knowledge concerning whether or not he has come yet.

Anyway, you all have made your point. I accept your positions and respectfully disagree with them. I am happy they are with us...and when and if they profess Messiah I will be sure to post that blessing of fruit to let you know. If they don't...I will be sure to admit I was wrong. I have NO pride in this...I don't need to be right. Well, actually, I do. I need to be right in that I know that what we are doing is the will of God and not some knee jerk emotional response. This has been prayerfully considered by our pastor....the elders...and of late, a few others. We know they can say nothing to shake us, so we fear nothing but not allowing them a fellowship through which God can work on them. Evereything is in HIS TIME, not ours. There can be no "time limit" on one's salvation...that is so, denominal!

peace.
Ken
News flash Ken... they can go on about the Messiah that hasn't come until they pass out from going on. They still deny THE Messiah because they deny Jesus the Christ. Again... you are simply playing with semantics and it is showing like neon lights. ;)

ProjectPeter
Dec 15th 2008, 09:44 PM
Answers, a feel for where everyone stands. But debate over a situation you have no first hand knowledge of? I didn't ask for that. I have no problem debating the merits of it...but understand, you have what little have written and no first hand knowledge. Technically, you aren't a witness to it...you would need to sit down and meet with them. if you did, I am confident, you would shrug your shoulders like I did.

Anyway, thanks for the discussion. It was...eye opening to say the least.

KenUm... alrighty then.

ears2hear
Dec 15th 2008, 09:56 PM
Ken: I have asked this in another post and I noticed that someone else did as well, could you please answer for me?

Do they partake of communion? Also, I also wanted to state again, that if your Pastor is allowing this fellow to pray or close a service in prayer...and he is not praying TO God THROUGH Jesus name...I feel that that in itself is a little disturbing.

OK, You asked a question and I responded to it.:) We certainly do not agree, but that doesn't mean that I don't respect you!:hug:
In my view of scripture, it is semantics when you say that they do not deny The Christ.

Bless you and yes please, post if this man and wife become born again!:pp

Ken...PLEASE respond to this post, especially the underlined stuff:)...thank you very much.

VerticalReality
Dec 15th 2008, 10:01 PM
VR...we have chated on other threads, have I come off as that big a bumbling fool to you? The Pharisees were broken into two groups, those who adhered to the spirit of the law (of the school of Hillel) and those who held to the letter. (school of Shamai) Those rebuked were ALWAYS of the letter of the law...which was also those who added the man made burdens to it. Some Pharisees actually believed VR, that we can see in scripture. But those that held to the letter of the law believed Messiah was coming to free them of their physical bondage, in that day and time, from Roman rule. When instead he speaks of being born again and repenting, when he speaks of freedom from eternal bondage (death) and not from pysical captivity, they rejected him. Context is everything, just as Paul, who studied under Hillel's grandson Gamiliel would have told you.

Peace.
Ken

I'm aware of the two sects, Ken. That wasn't really the point. I'm addressing the same Pharisees that Jesus addressed many times in the Scriptures. Did they not expect a Messiah to come but rejected that Jesus was this Messiah? How did Jesus refer to these Pharisees, Ken?

keck553
Dec 15th 2008, 10:05 PM
I'm aware of the two sects, Ken. That wasn't really the point. I'm addressing the same Pharisees that Jesus addressed many times in the Scriptures. Did they not expect a Messiah to come but rejected that Jesus was this Messiah? How did Jesus refer to these Pharisees, Ken?

Probably the same way He does to that nut in Olympia with the sign. :rofl:

Mysteryman
Dec 15th 2008, 10:13 PM
Where else should they go?
The chusch is not only for saints but sinners.
They must be persuaded that Jesus is the Messiah as Paul did in Acts!

My question would be, -- what is the intent of their heart ?

At any church gathering we talk about Jesus Christ. We talk about how God set us free from the law, etc.

If after hearing this, and they continue to come and make no reference as to the intent of their hearts, something is not right.

Maybe they do have a hidden motive, and that should be considered.

kenrank
Dec 15th 2008, 10:16 PM
Ken...PLEASE respond to this post, especially the underlined stuff:)...thank you very much.

We don't do communion as many churches do, I will not get into that right now. We do eat of the bread and drink the fruit of the vine...but in thanks for God providing. "Communion" is done at special times...not sure if they have been there then or not. I would think not.

As for praying in Jesus name? leyt me ask you...do you have to SAY the name Yahushua or Jesus to be "in the name?" I can show you, on another thread away from here, that being "in the name" has nothing to do with what words flow out of your mouth, bu whose authority you walk in. If you belong to Messiah, are obediant to his word....you are likely operating in his name...thus "saying it," though not wrong by ANY means...isn't necessary.

Ken

ears2hear
Dec 15th 2008, 10:24 PM
We don't do communion as many churches do, I will not get into that right now. We do eat of the bread and drink the fruit of the vine...but in thanks for God providing. "Communion" is done at special times...not sure if they have been there then or not. I would think not.

As for praying in Jesus name? leyt me ask you...do you have to SAY the name Yahushua or Jesus to be "in the name?" I can show you, on another thread away from here, that being "in the name" has nothing to do with what words flow out of your mouth, bu whose authority you walk in. If you belong to Messiah, are obediant to his word....you are likely operating in his name...thus "saying it," though not wrong by ANY means...isn't necessary.

Ken

Alright then. Let us all know how this pans out!:)

ps, you did however, pique my interest regarding communion or just breaking bread and drinking of the vine (thought they were one and the same? I surely could be mistaken!) Why do you break bread and drink from the vine and what is it if it is not remembering and honoring what Jesus asked of us...to "do this in rememberance of me."

ProjectPeter
Dec 15th 2008, 10:54 PM
We don't do communion as many churches do, I will not get into that right now. We do eat of the bread and drink the fruit of the vine...but in thanks for God providing. "Communion" is done at special times...not sure if they have been there then or not. I would think not.

As for praying in Jesus name? leyt me ask you...do you have to SAY the name Yahushua or Jesus to be "in the name?" I can show you, on another thread away from here, that being "in the name" has nothing to do with what words flow out of your mouth, bu whose authority you walk in. If you belong to Messiah, are obediant to his word....you are likely operating in his name...thus "saying it," though not wrong by ANY means...isn't necessary.

Ken
Let me say this on a more official capacity. You need to start a thread in the chat to minister's section. Thanks.

kenrank
Dec 15th 2008, 10:59 PM
Alright then. Let us all know how this pans out!:)

ps, you did however, pique my interest regarding communion or just breaking bread and drinking of the vine (thought they were one and the same? I surely could be mistaken!) Why do you break bread and drink from the vine and what is it if it is not remembering and honoring what Jesus asked of us...to "do this in rememberance of me."

I don't have any problem with doing communion every week, I just don't see it as commanded. Aside from the wine (or grape juice if you prefer) and bread being associated with the body and blood of Messiah, there are other references in scripture. But that is another thread. We can eat of bread in giving thanks to God for providing, the same with wine, and it not be communion. Messiah said, "when you do this," not "everytime you do this." Personally, each I time I reflect to him as it all points to him anyway, and I assume it is the same for the others.

The night he made the statement, the "last supper," this was a Passove Sedar...and there is always a cup and bread set aside as communion during this feasts. He did "pass over" from death unto life.

peace to you.
Ken

PilgrimPastor
Dec 15th 2008, 11:13 PM
Greetings all. This subject came up in another thread and I thought it would make a good thread on it's own merit.

In the congregation I attend, a very close knit group of 50 when everyone shows up, we have a family of 6 that comes nearly every week. (They have to drive an hour and a half each way to get there, so they don't come every week) The parents, we can call them Bob and Jane, 35ish, deny that Yahushua (Jesus) is the Messiah. They do not deny a Messiah, but they deny Jesus as Messiah. Believing instead, that he has yet to come.

So my question is, would YOU let them attend your church?

Peace.
Ken

I would first want to know WHY they attend a Christian Church is they do not believe that Jesus is the Messiah? Are they seekers? Are they simply looking for the social aspect of the Church?

I had a man who was attending a church I served as Assistant Pastor in Florida who was VERY vague at first in regard to what he believed. After he asked sing in the choir, the Senior Pastor and I went to his nearby apartment to talk about church membership.

I pressed him on what he thought of Christ to which he replied, "He was a nice guy and everything, but what about the Buddha and other wise teachers?" I explained the uniqueness of Christ to him but to no avail. We denied him membership in the church but he came - and when last I visited after a few years away in the pastorate - he was still coming regularly... but the explanation for that requires more time than I can commit to writing...

keck553
Dec 15th 2008, 11:53 PM
I would first want to know WHY they attend a Christian Church is they do not believe that Jesus is the Messiah? Are they seekers? Are they simply looking for the social aspect of the Church?

I had a man who was attending a church I served as Assistant Pastor in Florida who was VERY vague at first in regard to what he believed. After he asked sing in the choir, the Senior Pastor and I went to his nearby apartment to talk about church membership.

I pressed him on what he thought of Christ to which he replied, "He was a nice guy and everything, but what about the Buddha and other wise teachers?" I explained the uniqueness of Christ to him but to no avail. We denied him membership in the church but he came - and when last I visited after a few years away in the pastorate - he was still coming regularly... but the explanation for that requires more time than I can commit to writing...

Separating the wheat from the tares is not to be our concern.

crossnote
Dec 16th 2008, 06:03 AM
But I have another question for you all....is not believing in Jesus as Messiah a sin?
Peace.
Ken

Speaking to the Jews:
I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.
(Joh 8:24)

"Therefore, I said to you*, 'you* will die in your sins,' for unless you* believe that _I_ am, you* will die in your* sins."
(Joh 8:24)

That is why I told you that you will die in (under the curse of) your sins; for if you do not believe that I am He [Whom I claim to be--if you do not adhere to, trust in, and rely on Me], you will die in your sins.
(Joh 8:24)

godsgirl
Dec 16th 2008, 12:52 PM
If the visitors to your congregation are not praying in Jesus Name-then they are not praying to the God of the Bible-for it is in His authority and by His power that we are permitted to come to God at all. He is The Way, The Truth and The Life-No one-not even those who believe in God-can come to Him in any other way. So I would definitly NOT allow them to open or close in prayer.

Samsheep2
Dec 16th 2008, 01:23 PM
Separating the wheat from the tares is not to be our concern.
Out in the world - Yes I agree but when it comes to the church which is a called out assembly then we differ. The Apostle gave instructions in this area:
1 Corinthians 5:11-13 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat. For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within? But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.
Were they 'wicked' because of the sin or wicked because never having been made righteous? One thing is sure, they have no place in a local church as a member/part of that body - as you know there is a vast difference between a visitor and a member.

Thanks, Sam

Samsheep2
Dec 16th 2008, 01:25 PM
If the visitors to your congregation are not praying in Jesus Name-then they are not praying to the God of the Bible-for it is in His authority and by His power that we are permitted to come to God at all. He is The Way, The Truth and The Life-No one-not even those who believe in God-can come to Him in any other way. So I would definitly NOT allow them to open or close in prayer.
Amen and amen - "To him that knoweth to do good and doeth it not; to him it is a sin"

God bless,
Sam

Firefighter
Dec 16th 2008, 02:56 PM
I'm shocked! :rolleyes::lol:

And once again... you are not hearing at all what I am making really clear! Paul did not do this in the gathering of believers. He did it in their own place. On the streets... on Mars Hill... etc. He did not do this in the gathering of believers. That was reserved for the believers. ;)

Uh... then you define an evangelist wrongly... either that or Paul was wrong when he wrote to the Ephesian church.

Ephesians 4:11 And He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers,
12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ;
13 until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fulness of Christ.

What did He give us apostles, prophets, evangelist, pastors and teachers for? I bolded it for you so as to make it easy to find. ;)

He wrote about it elsewhere... for example in 1 Corinthians 12. Seems pretty clear to me when speaking of the "BODY" of Christ.


εὐαγγελιστής
euaggelistēs
Thayer Definition:
1) a bringer of good tidings, an evangelist
2) the name given to the NT heralds of salvation through Christ who are not apostles

Dadgum it! Yet again, I agree with you overall if not point for point. No argument here...:B

Maybe we will eventually REALLY disagree about something and get to debate it...:D:lol::rofl:

ears2hear
Dec 16th 2008, 03:01 PM
If the visitors to your congregation are not praying in Jesus Name-then they are not praying to the God of the Bible-for it is in His authority and by His power that we are permitted to come to God at all. He is The Way, The Truth and The Life-No one-not even those who believe in God-can come to Him in any other way. So I would definitly NOT allow them to open or close in prayer.

Oh!! Amen!!

I have been wondering for a bit now why this Pastor who is so DEEP in the Word (Ken's words, not mine) would even allow this man to open or close in prayer when it is obvious that he denies that Christ has come in the flesh to die for his sins. I wonder how much of this is biblical?:hmm:

kenrank
Dec 16th 2008, 03:45 PM
Oh!! Amen!!

I have been wondering for a bit now why this Pastor who is so DEEP in the Word (Ken's words, not mine) would even allow this man to open or close in prayer when it is obvious that he denies that Christ has come in the flesh to die for his sins. I wonder how much of this is biblical?:hmm:

This is my last post on this thread. Christians believe Jesus is God, as do I. The obvious then, the God of the OT, YHWH (Yah) is the same God of the NT. (Yahshua- YHWH has become our salvation) So if "Bob" prays, he is praying to the same one God.

As for "being in the name," again, what words you place at the end of a prayer does not "mean" you are in the name. God's name represents His authority, if you then are HIS and walk in His authority, then when you pray or otherwise perform an action in that authority, you are doing so "in the name" whether you "say" it or not.

Folks, we live on one planet that has 100 million "different" forms of life. There are 9 planets (+/-) in this solar system which surrounds our local star, the sun. There are 500 BILLION stars in this galaxy, 500 BILLION other galaxies, all containing "about" 500 BILLION stars. The closest star to our's is 4 light years away...which is "about" 2.3 TRILLION miles away..and that is the closest one. Yet, we think we really comprehend the Creator? We don't even comprehend the creation...let alone the Creator.

This one creator of all of this...perfects who HE WILL in HIS TIME. His grace so much bigger than we understand. He gives us favor for reasons only HE really understands. While we are commanded to avoid fellowshipping with evil or pagan ways, most of you have lumped this couple into that group. They serve YHWH, the same one God you do, but they do so from an OT perspective because, while they were seeking Yahshua (Jesus) early in their walk while they were weak, were afronted by a group that had greater knowledge than they did, and these people used this knowledge to attack them and drive them away from our Savior. Yet, SOMETHING inside them causes them to drive nearly an hour and a half in each direction to worship with us. Yes, that in part is due to us keeping the Feasts and Sabbath...but they can do that in other places. Places though, that don't place Yahshua at the forefront. Yet, they know who we exalt, and they come anyway. Recently, they have begun to ask questions. Our congregation leader last week spoke about a Paul passage and how it related to something in the OT and "June" said out loud, "Oh, NOW I understand that." Other comments like that and certain actions they have taken recently causes not just me to see a change in both of them. So while many of you believe we should have sent them packing, we extend them GRACE. They have abided by our wishes...not to teach nor to share their views on Messiah. So they did as they were asked, in return we allow them to be a part of our fellowship. We extend to them the grace we all would hope others would give us should we have found ourselves in a state of confusion as they find themselves. We give them the TIME...and the example...and the WORD...so that God can work in their hearts and do the work ONLY he is capable of.

Anyone on this board is welcome to come to our fellowship and "inspect" the process. I will NOT point them out, you'll have to figure that out for yourselves.

Peace to you all.
Ken

PilgrimPastor
Dec 16th 2008, 04:00 PM
Separating the wheat from the tares is not to be our concern.

While it is not our job to separate the wheat from the tares, wouldn't you agree that it is our job to uphold the truth of Christ? To only admit those into the membership in the church that are members of the Kingdom of Heaven? If Christ is not viewed as ones savior, what bussiness do they have in the local fellowship singing in chiors if not to bring division.

This man used to come drunk to my Bible study to argue with me in front of 15+ people who actually came to grow in the Word of God. I pressed him in an effort to press him toward the Cross of Christ. The early Church Fathers were willing to die for the sake of correct doctrine and right practice. Why are we so different?

keck553
Dec 16th 2008, 04:35 PM
Out in the world - Yes I agree but when it comes to the church which is a called out assembly then we differ. The Apostle gave instructions in this area:
1 Corinthians 5:11-13 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat. For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within? But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.
Were they 'wicked' because of the sin or wicked because never having been made righteous? One thing is sure, they have no place in a local church as a member/part of that body - as you know there is a vast difference between a visitor and a member.

Thanks, Sam

So you think everyone in your congregation is a believer? I tell you that assumption would be dead wrong.

keck553
Dec 16th 2008, 04:43 PM
While it is not our job to separate the wheat from the tares, wouldn't you agree that it is our job to uphold the truth of Christ? To only admit those into the membership in the church that are members of the Kingdom of Heaven? If Christ is not viewed as ones savior, what bussiness do they have in the local fellowship singing in chiors if not to bring division.

This man used to come drunk to my Bible study to argue with me in front of 15+ people who actually came to grow in the Word of God. I pressed him in an effort to press him toward the Cross of Christ. The early Church Fathers were willing to die for the sake of correct doctrine and right practice. Why are we so different?

Absolutely I uphold GOD's truth (remember the Son follows the will of the Father?) from Genesis 1:1 to the end of The Revelation of Messiah.

Now, disrupting any meeting, whether it be Bible study or a company staff meeting needs to be dealt with properly, so your statement about the drunk is out of context.

Additionally you have, in fact no human has the authority to admit anyone into or deny anyone from the Kingdom of Heaven. This isn't some cult in Rome in 1500 when one had to tithe our way out of pergatory.

In the 1st Century Synagogues, there were non-messianic Jews together with messianic Jews and ditto for Gentiles. A lot of Gentiles converted to Judaism before Jesus came and had to be convinced also. There is not ONE instance of non-messianic believers being forced out of any Synagogue until the RCC started either forced conversion, exclusion, persecution or the murder of Jews and other unbelievers in the "name of Christ" that this silly self-righteousness began.

Lots of people die for their beliefs, Hindus, Muslims, Jews and even Atheists. That doesn't mean they are in the will of God.

PilgrimPastor
Dec 16th 2008, 04:51 PM
Absolutely I uphold GOD's truth (remember the Son follows the will of the Father?) from Genesis 1:1 to the end of The Revelation of Messiah.

Additionally you have, in fact no human has the authority to admit anyone or deny anyone from the Kingdom of Heaven. This isn't some cult in Rome in 1500 when one had to tithe our way out of pergatory.

In the 1st Century Synagogues, there were non-messianic Jews together with messianic Jews and ditto for Gentiles. A lot of Gentiles converted to Judaism before Jesus came and had to be convinced also. There is not ONE instance of non-messianic believers being forced out of any Synagogue until the RCC started either forced conversion, exclusion, persecution or the murder of Jews and other unbelievers in the "name of Christ" that this silly self-righteousness began.

WOW. Are you suggesting that what I am talking about is in any way similar to middle ages Catholicism? That is a bit of a stretch. We still showed love to this man, in fact, I visited the church not long ago and he came to hear me preach. Membership in the local church and membership in the Kingdom of Heaven are not necessarily mutually exclusive, neither ought they to be miles apart though.

"Professed" believers are to be gathered together for corporate worship and fellowship in the local church, this man was not even a professed believer. Should we then, according to your outlandish logic, admit professed Muslims? What about this man, as he is, a professed adherant of Universalism? If it is not our job to protect the sanctity of the message of Christ, then what is our role?

ears2hear
Dec 16th 2008, 04:57 PM
Ken: I eagerly await news on this couple's salvation!:)

keck553
Dec 16th 2008, 05:19 PM
WOW. Are you suggesting that what I am talking about is in any way similar to middle ages Catholicism? That is a bit of a stretch. We still showed love to this man, in fact, I visited the church not long ago and he came to hear me preach. Membership in the local church and membership in the Kingdom of Heaven are not necessarily mutually exclusive, neither ought they to be miles apart though.

"Professed" believers are to be gathered together for corporate worship and fellowship in the local church, this man was not even a professed believer. Should we then, according to your outlandish logic, admit professed Muslims? What about this man, as he is, a professed adherant of Universalism? If it is not our job to protect the sanctity of the message of Christ, then what is our role?

Well it wasn't above bet-Yeshua to share the truth with unbelievers in the Synagogue. What makes us better than the emmisaries of Messiah? Now as far as leadership duties are concerned, that's clearly defined and definately there are standards that need to be applied.

Even today, I can go (and have gone) to any Orthodox Synagogue with my messianic faith in my home town and be welcomed. I can recite the She'ma with them, praise Adonai with them, and pray with (or for in my case) them. Who is following closer to the will of God in this matter? An inclusive synagogue or an exclusive church?

threebigrocks
Dec 16th 2008, 05:49 PM
I see a lot of desire here for unity and acceptance, tolerance.

Tolerance doesn't do the church much good.

And the way I'm reading this all right now - nobody is taking a step outside of where they sit now to promote unity.

Acceptance is for every believer to extend a hand to. Christ accepted us as sinners, but He even expected every single person he spoke to grow. He did for us while we were yet sinners. We were powerless to save ourselves. Yet we are to go - and sin no more. Be holy as He is holy. We are to accept all where they are and YET expect them them to change. Believers in Christ Jesus aren't unbelievers and unbelievers aren't believers. Accept - but expect.

We need to change the tone of this thread or it will be closed.

MacGyver
Dec 16th 2008, 06:40 PM
I am a Catholic so they are welcome to attend anytime, they just cannot receive the Eucharist unless they convert to Catholicism.

But assuming that you are not Catholic I would suggest that you all treat them the way Christ would treat them, with love and respect, but be very clear that they are visitors when they do not accept the teaching of your congregation.

Br. Barnabas
Dec 16th 2008, 08:24 PM
2 John 1 (New International Version)

2 John 1

1The elder,
To the chosen lady and her children, whom I love in the truth—and not I only, but also all who know the truth - 2because of the truth, which lives in us and will be with us forever:

3Grace, mercy and peace from God the Father and from Jesus Christ, the Father's Son, will be with us in truth and love.

4It has given me great joy to find some of your children walking in the truth, just as the Father commanded us. 5And now, dear lady, I am not writing you a new command but one we have had from the beginning. I ask that we love one another. 6And this is love: that we walk in obedience to his commands. As you have heard from the beginning, his command is that you walk in love.

7Many deceivers, who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh, have gone out into the world. Any such person is the deceiver and the antichrist. 8Watch out that you do not lose what you have worked for, but that you may be rewarded fully. 9Anyone who runs ahead and does not continue in the teaching of Christ does not have God; whoever continues in the teaching has both the Father and the Son. 10If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not take him into your house or welcome him. 11Anyone who welcomes him shares in his wicked work.

Quote:
1 Corinthians 5 (New International Version)

1 Corinthians 5

9I have written you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people— 10not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world. 11But now I am writing you that you must not associate with anyone who calls himself a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat.


Ok it seems that we need a little historical background on what the Elder (St John) and St Paul are in these passages.

2 John as a whole is a letter about false missionaries. So we must first ask what was going in 1st century Asia Minor that made St John write his letter. What St John is mostly talking about in his letter are false missionaries. These "missionaries" are really Docetists, a sect of heretics that believed that Jesus was not really a man but only had the apperance of a man, while being only spirit. The Gospel of John also contains stories to show that this teaching is wrong. That is why St John says those who deny Christ has come in the flesh. Because the Docetists said that he came just not in the flesh, also that he could not die. St John is pointing out that if ones says that Jesus did not come in the flesh ie could not die than that person is not really a Christian and an anti-christ because they deny the death and resurrection of the Lord. Meaning that we are still in our sins. So these "missionaries" were coming and wanting money and lodging while they were preaching but what they were preaching was not the same message that St John's church had recieved. So he tells them to reject the teaching and the teachers because they are not really Christians. He is not talking about rejecting and not accepting people who are not Christians just these that are trying to say that they are Christian but spreading a message that is against the Gospel.

What is happening at Ken's church is not that this couple are people claiming to be Christian and they are not missionaries asking for money and lodging while on their way. They are people who seem to be wanting and willing to listen to the Gospel message. They don't seem to be taking advantage of the church or anything like that. So the case with this couple is very different than the one that St John is writting about. Lets keep that in mind so that we don't start rejecting every unbeliever that comes to church. Now if an unbeliever comes and asks for money several times then I would say that they need to be asked to leave or to not come back or even that money is not given to them but what they need is paid for them or food given to them.

Again Pauls instructions in the 1 Cor 5 passage does not fit this situation either. Paul is talking to the church where a Christian has committed sexual immortality and is still at the church and being treated like a brother. The offender has most likely not repented of his sin and might still be committing his sin; which is not right for a Christian to do. So he should be denied he Eucharist and/or asked to leave the church and when he has repented allow him to come back. Which is why Paul said hand this man over to Satan.

So again since these people are not really Christians they cannot be held to the same standard. They still should not be allowed to hold any leadership as any other non-Christian should not be able to, should not be asked to pray for the church or able to take part in Eucharist or any other celebration of the Lord's table. The Eucharist is only for baptized Christians.

Hope that helps to put these passages in context.

VerticalReality
Dec 16th 2008, 08:33 PM
Ok it seems that we need a little historical background on what the Elder (St John) and St Paul are in these passages.

2 John as a whole is a letter about false missionaries. So we must first ask what was going in 1st century Asia Minor that made St John write his letter. What St John is mostly talking about in his letter are false missionaries. These "missionaries" are really Docetists, a sect of heretics that believed that Jesus was not really a man but only had the apperance of a man, while being only spirit. The Gospel of John also contains stories to show that this teaching is wrong. That is why St John says those who deny Christ has come in the flesh. Because the Docetists said that he came just not in the flesh, also that he could not die. St John is pointing out that if ones says that Jesus did not come in the flesh ie could not die than that person is not really a Christian and an anti-christ because they deny the death and resurrection of the Lord. Meaning that we are still in our sins. So these "missionaries" were coming and wanting money and lodging while they were preaching but what they were preaching was not the same message that St John's church had recieved. So he tells them to reject the teaching and the teachers because they are not really Christians. He is not talking about rejecting and not accepting people who are not Christians just these that are trying to say that they are Christian but spreading a message that is against the Gospel.

What is happening at Ken's church is not that this couple are people claiming to be Christian and they are not missionaries asking for money and lodging while on their way. They are people who seem to be wanting and willing to listen to the Gospel message. They don't seem to be taking advantage of the church or anything like that. So the case with this couple is very different than the one that St John is writting about. Lets keep that in mind so that we don't start rejecting every unbeliever that comes to church. Now if an unbeliever comes and asks for money several times then I would say that they need to be asked to leave or to not come back or even that money is not given to them but what they need is paid for them or food given to them.

Again Pauls instructions in the 1 Cor 5 passage does not fit this situation either. Paul is talking to the church where a Christian has committed sexual immortality and is still at the church and being treated like a brother. The offender has most likely not repented of his sin and might still be committing his sin; which is not right for a Christian to do. So he should be denied he Eucharist and/or asked to leave the church and when he has repented allow him to come back. Which is why Paul said hand this man over to Satan.

So again since these people are not really Christians they cannot be held to the same standard. They still should not be allowed to hold any leadership as any other non-Christian should not be able to, should not be asked to pray for the church or able to take part in Eucharist or any other celebration of the Lord's table. The Eucharist is only for baptized Christians.

Hope that helps to put these passages in context.

Matthew 16:5-12
Now when His disciples had come to the other side, they had forgotten to take bread. Then Jesus said to them, “Take heed and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and the Sadducees.” And they reasoned among themselves, saying, “It is because we have taken no bread.” But Jesus, being aware of it, said to them, “O you of little faith, why do you reason among yourselves because you have brought no bread? Do you not yet understand, or remember the five loaves of the five thousand and how many baskets you took up? Nor the seven loaves of the four thousand and how many large baskets you took up? How is it you do not understand that I did not speak to you concerning bread?—but to beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and Sadducees.” Then they understood that He did not tell them to beware of the leaven of bread, but of the doctrine of the Pharisees and Sadducees.

Their belief that Jesus was not the Messiah or our Savior is part of the leaven of the Pharisees and Sadducees. Such nonsense has no business within the fellowship of believers. If they are seeking to understand the truth of the Lord Jesus Christ so they can accept Him as their Savior that is one thing. However, when it becomes apparent that they are not considering Him as their Savior then they do not need to be part of the church.

Br. Barnabas
Dec 16th 2008, 09:03 PM
Matthew 16:5-12
Now when His disciples had come to the other side, they had forgotten to take bread. Then Jesus said to them, “Take heed and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and the Sadducees.” And they reasoned among themselves, saying, “It is because we have taken no bread.” But Jesus, being aware of it, said to them, “O you of little faith, why do you reason among yourselves because you have brought no bread? Do you not yet understand, or remember the five loaves of the five thousand and how many baskets you took up? Nor the seven loaves of the four thousand and how many large baskets you took up? How is it you do not understand that I did not speak to you concerning bread?—but to beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and Sadducees.” Then they understood that He did not tell them to beware of the leaven of bread, uceebut of the doctrine of the Pharisees and Sadds.

Their belief that Jesus was not the Messiah or our Savior is part of the leaven of the Pharisees and Sadducees. Such nonsense has no business within the fellowship of believers. If they are seeking to understand the truth of the Lord Jesus Christ so they can accept Him as their Savior that is one thing. However, when it becomes apparent that they are not considering Him as their Savior then they do not need to be part of the church.

I will agree that is why I said nothing of that because from what the OP has said they are seeking to understand the Gospel and seem to be open to the Gospel message.

I would say that the leaven of these two groups of people is not, not believing Jesus is the Messiah. They did not believe he was but many people did not and when Jesus was in his ministry this was not his cheif complaint about the Pharisees or Sadducees. This cheif complaint is about the Pharisees putting a hedge around the Law so that they will not break the the written Law if they break the oral law, at least that was the hope. They did this because they did not want another exile like they had in Babylon. The Sadducees were falling way from traditional Judaism and trying to keep the peace with the Roman officals by compromising with the officals. I think this metaphor could be read in many different ways. Not saying that yours is right or wrong just that there are other opitions avaible too.

keck553
Dec 16th 2008, 10:09 PM
Matthew 16:5-12
Now when His disciples had come to the other side, they had forgotten to take bread. Then Jesus said to them, “Take heed and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and the Sadducees.” And they reasoned among themselves, saying, “It is because we have taken no bread.” But Jesus, being aware of it, said to them, “O you of little faith, why do you reason among yourselves because you have brought no bread? Do you not yet understand, or remember the five loaves of the five thousand and how many baskets you took up? Nor the seven loaves of the four thousand and how many large baskets you took up? How is it you do not understand that I did not speak to you concerning bread?—but to beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and Sadducees.” Then they understood that He did not tell them to beware of the leaven of bread, uceebut of the doctrine of the Pharisees and Sadds.

Their belief that Jesus was not the Messiah or our Savior is part of the leaven of the Pharisees and Sadducees. Such nonsense has no business within the fellowship of believers. If they are seeking to understand the truth of the Lord Jesus Christ so they can accept Him as their Savior that is one thing. However, when it becomes apparent that they are not considering Him as their Savior then they do not need to be part of the church.

What Yeshua is warning against is man-made traditions and ordinances. These things are in abundance in virtually every congregation, and as priests, we are charged to divide the word of God from the traditions and ordinances of men. It's something ALL of us need to be aware of. There is a parallel warning to priests in Ezekiel, chap 23 (I think) about this same issue. Also, historically during the ministry of Yeshua and throughout the 1st and 2nd century, both Messianic and non-messianic believers shared the same synagogues, read the same Torah and Haftorah readings and listened to the same drash's, and fellowshipped together (although I imagine there were some wild discussions and some sandle shaking going on).

So, neither Yeshua, His emmisaries or Sha'ul enforced what you claim in any of the assemblies.

VerticalReality
Dec 17th 2008, 12:23 AM
Actually, going by the surrounding context that is not what Jesus is warning against in those passages . . .

In the surrounding passages Jesus is talking about the unbelief of the Pharisees and the Sadducees. In fact, in just a couple of verses prior they are asking Jesus to perform some sign for them. He then says that a wicked and adulterous generation seeks after a sign but none will be given it except the sign of the prophet Jonah.

So, from the context of surrounding passages it is unbelief that Jesus is talking about that is the leaven of the Pharisees and Sadducees.

threebigrocks
Dec 17th 2008, 01:29 AM
What Yeshua is warning against is man-made traditions and ordinances. These things are in abundance in virtually every congregation, and as priests, we are charged to divide the word of God from the traditions and ordinances of men. It's something ALL of us need to be aware of. There is a parallel warning to priests in Ezekiel, chap 23 (I think) about this same issue. Also, historically during the ministry of Yeshua and throughout the 1st and 2nd century, both Messianic and non-messianic believers shared the same synagogues, read the same Torah and Haftorah readings and listened to the same drash's, and fellowshipped together (although I imagine there were some wild discussions and some sandle shaking going on).

So, neither Yeshua, His emmisaries or Sha'ul enforced what you claim in any of the assemblies.

But they all believed in Christ. If you are a Jew when you come to Christ - remain as such. If as a gentile - then remain as such. A gentile ought not to try and be what they can't be and neither should one who has always been Jewish. Of course that's the way it went and of course it wouldn't have been enforced! There wasn't leaven involved in the situation you wrote on. That's who those people were, but the common thread - belief and faith in Christ.

In context, the Matthew 16:5-12 speaks just exactly how VR stated.

keck553
Dec 17th 2008, 04:25 PM
But they all believed in Christ. If you are a Jew when you come to Christ - remain as such. If as a gentile - then remain as such. A gentile ought not to try and be what they can't be and neither should one who has always been Jewish. Of course that's the way it went and of course it wouldn't have been enforced! There wasn't leaven involved in the situation you wrote on. That's who those people were, but the common thread - belief and faith in Christ.

In context, the Matthew 16:5-12 speaks just exactly how VR stated.

Obeying God is not Jewish TBR. From Sinai to well into the 2nd century, grafted in foreigners lived within the standards God set down in the Torah and Haftorah scrolls. There was no 'New Testament." The problem has always been man with his tradttions and rulings, not God. God revealed that through all the prophets, through His Son, and through His talmidim and through Paul. The admontion of man made rulings and traditions that usurp God's Torah have always been the point of contention, the wall not only between Jews and Gentiles, but between God and His people.

While I understand and concur with your point in regards to Jewish culture and traditions, I don't put God's commands in the same category as man-made traditions, and I certainly don't buy into the teaching that God changed His mind about His standards of mental, physical and spiritual heath written out in all 66 books of the Bible.

VR - All disobedience to God's commands is unbelief. And the Pharisees, Sadduccees and others who Yeshua admonished certainly were guilty of that. Yeshua was right - if the trusted what God said through Moshe, they would have known He was ben Elohim. This is the unbelief Yeshua was addressing.

How much unbelief are we guilty of?

VerticalReality
Dec 17th 2008, 05:50 PM
VR - All disobedience to God's commands is unbelief. And the Pharisees, Sadduccees and others who Yeshua admonished certainly were guilty of that. Yeshua was right - if the trusted what God said through Moshe, they would have known He was ben Elohim. This is the unbelief Yeshua was addressing.

So you agree then, in a very roundabout sort of way, that unbelief is the leaven which Jesus refers to in the passage I referenced here . . .

He did not reference man-made laws or anything else. He simply referenced their unbelief. Nobody is doubting you when you state that Jesus had a problem with their man-made traditions and what not. However, in context, that is not what Jesus is referring to in the passage I gave for you all. In that particular passage He is addressing their unbelief with regard to the fact that they were seeking after another sign from Him. The reason they kept bugging Him for another sign is because they were in unbelief, or denial, whichever you want to call it, about who Jesus was. They did not want to believe in Him. They did not want to accept Him as Messiah. They did not want to accept Him as Lord.

Therefore, Jesus said to His disciples that they should be careful of the leaven of the Pharisees and Sadducees. On this basis alone, as if there weren't other reasons, the OP should be very careful about what he is allowing around those he has been instructed to watch. I would not want to be the one standing before the Lord one day having Him show me that I was responsible for the harm done to others when He gave me clear instructions to follow.

keck553
Dec 17th 2008, 06:45 PM
So you agree then, in a very roundabout sort of way, that unbelief is the leaven which Jesus refers to in the passage I referenced here . . .

He did not reference man-made laws or anything else. He simply referenced their unbelief. Nobody is doubting you when you state that Jesus had a problem with their man-made traditions and what not. However, in context, that is not what Jesus is referring to in the passage I gave for you all. In that particular passage He is addressing their unbelief with regard to the fact that they were seeking after another sign from Him. The reason they kept bugging Him for another sign is because they were in unbelief, or denial, whichever you want to call it, about who Jesus was. They did not want to believe in Him. They did not want to accept Him as Messiah. They did not want to accept Him as Lord.

Therefore, Jesus said to His disciples that they should be careful of the leaven of the Pharisees and Sadducees. On this basis alone, as if there weren't other reasons, the OP should be very careful about what he is allowing around those he has been instructed to watch. I would not want to be the one standing before the Lord one day having Him show me that I was responsible for the harm done to others when He gave me clear instructions to follow.

What He referenced was the Torah He gave through Moses. The Torah of Moshe reveals Him. Check out my post on the Sabbath thread. The ten commandments Moses brought down, weren't a bunch of words, they were just ten letters, representing one through 10. The Godhead is revealed and established in the first commandment. The Jews had an unfullfilled vew of this. Yeshua unlocked the veil, but their unbelief was rooted in the Torah of Moses.

Joh 5:46"For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me, for he wrote about Me.

VerticalReality
Dec 17th 2008, 07:05 PM
What He referenced was the Torah He gave through Moses. The Torah of Moshe reveals Him. Check out my post on the Sabbath thread. The ten commandments Moses brought down, weren't a bunch of words, they were just ten letters, representing one through 10. The Godhead is revealed and established in the first commandment. The Jews had an unfullfilled vew of this. Yeshua unlocked the veil, but their unbelief was rooted in the Torah of Moses.

Joh 5:46"For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me, for he wrote about Me.

I disagree . . .

Their unbelief was rooted in the devil. They were his children and not God's.

Regardless, I see that we are not going to agree here, so I will go ahead and call it a day with this one.

God bless.

keck553
Dec 17th 2008, 07:33 PM
I disagree . . .

Their unbelief was rooted in the devil. They were his children and not God's.

Regardless, I see that we are not going to agree here, so I will go ahead and call it a day with this one.

God bless.

yes the origin of disobedience is the temptor. To that I agree. I suppose we can blame everything on satan, but the unbelief Yeshua was speaking to was in profaning Torah. In profaning Torah, they profaned the author. You may think I am disagreeing with you, but all I'm doing is adding context.

shalom to you also. May God bless you and keep you always

in Messiah.

bobbysmith
Dec 18th 2008, 05:33 AM
Kenrank,

May the truth of Christ be our goal!

The early church was not like what we practice today. If you were a new Christian, you had to have an official introduction (some one who would atest to your belief) to be allowed into the local congregation. They realized that satan was working hard and knew the importance of the local church. Have we have lost this ?? trait ?? We let anyone into our midst though we know not thier motives. All in the name of bringing them to Christ. (though this is not bad if that is what your gathering is all about!) We need to start to understand the roles of evangelism, study and worship. They are different and should be separate. Conventional Christian denominations try to lump them into the same Saturday- Sunday get togethers we have had for many years.

Though the adversary is not dragging Christians into the streets and executing them, the enemy is still at large, and is using many different tools to devide and destroy.

Political correctness is everywhere in the church. You have every right to question this situation. The love of Christ be with us with understanding and discernment!!

Thanks

bob

Bob Carabbio
Dec 18th 2008, 09:18 PM
Sure, no problem - unless of course they bring a Bull horn and loudly proclaim their heresy while the preaching is going on, or laugh loudly and scream obscenities when the name of Jesus is mentioned. That could get old quickly.

Chances are there's quite a few folks in that church that aren't even Christian - yet.

But if they come in SHUT UP and sit under the Ministry of the Word - what BETTER place for 'em????

Our Church constitution/By-laws WOULD NOT allow us to extend an offer of "Active Membership" to a KNOWN non-Christian.