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Bex4Jesus
Dec 15th 2008, 03:59 PM
I read a lot about Hell this weekend. What can I say, sometimes I need a kick in the butt to refocus on how important it is to spread the word. I know I am not ready yet, but when I think about how HORRIBLE Hell is, I feel unChristian for not spending ALL of my time trying to save people. Does anyone feel this way?

I mean, I read a lot of passages about Hell and its depicted as a lake of fire, a bottomless pit, a place where people will beg for a drop of water on their tongues.

And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth" (Matthew 25:30) (http://www.fillthevoid.org/Kjv/B40C025.htm#V30).

But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death" (Revelation 21:8) (http://www.fillthevoid.org/Kjv/B66C021.htm#V8).

"And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame " (Luke 16:24) (http://www.fillthevoid.org/Kjv/B42C016.htm#V24).

"And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom" (Luke 16:23) (http://www.fillthevoid.org/Kjv/B42C016.htm#V23).

"The sorrows of hell compassed me about; the snares of death prevented me;" (2 Samuel 22:6) (http://www.fillthevoid.org/Kjv/B10C022.htm#V6).


Its the worst thing that can happen to someone!! Don't we have a duty to spend ALL our time saving people? I mean if I knew my mom or dad was kidnapped by someone and was being tormented by them, would I go to school like normal? Work at the bookstore like normal? Socialize with my friends and waste time like I know I do? Of course not! I'd be out there hanging up signs or talking with the police every day or searching for clues! I'd be obssessed!

So with Hell being like a million times worse than any Earthly torture, how can I just sit here and let people go to such a fate??? I feel so sad! :cry:

Bex

P.S. I meant to put "save" in the thread instead of "say"! *embarrassed*

moonglow
Dec 15th 2008, 06:03 PM
you can edit your title..click on edit at the right hand bottom of the screen...once that comes up...again look for 'advanced edit' at the right hand bottom of the screen and then you can fix the title...

At for your post...the thing is many people don't believe in hell! So don't believe they need saving from it...how do you save someone that doesn't want to be saved?

That is the question....:hmm:

That is why I don't get overly anxious about it...well one reason...its like trying to hold back a flood of water by yourself..

Second...we can't save anyone. Only God can. All we can do is lead them to God...but still He has to draw them to Him and they have to accept the gift offered...

While our work is important..its not all on our shoulders by any means. We are the workers in the field so to speak..important work but people's salvation doesn't solely rest on our shoulders by any means.


Ok...now I need to present something really difficult here but you need to be ready for it. I realize you are so excited and anxious to go out there and share the Good News...but you need to be ready for people like this:

you share the gospel and tell Joe how terrible hell is and how you want to 'save him from the horrors of it'....

And Joe says...why would you want to worship a God that tortures people and burns them alive forever in hell simply because they rejected him...sounds like some kind of terrorist dictator to me...'believe or suffer forever'...how can a loving God do such a thing? I don't want to have anything to do with a God like that...and I am appalled you would either...

How are you going to handle that?

This is what you will hear...especially on a college campus so you need to be ready for it...before you go out witnessing ...

God bless

Bex4Jesus
Dec 15th 2008, 08:42 PM
I understand what you mean and I know I can't do it all by myself, but do you understand what I was saying??? Hell is so terrible, its horrible beyond words. I know some of my family does not believe. So I know, that right now,they would be going to Hell. Its been driving me crazy about how to lead them to Christ. I just HAVE to do it.

I've been having nightmares about family members and friends who don't have Jesus in their lives and its horrible. I mean, like I said, if my family was kidnapped, I wouldn't be like, "Oh well its really not on my shoulders - I didn't put them in the spot they are in." I'd be like, "I have to save you!"

Love to all,

Bex

moonglow
Dec 15th 2008, 09:11 PM
I understand what you mean and I know I can't do it all by myself, but do you understand what I was saying??? Hell is so terrible, its horrible beyond words. I know some of my family does not believe. So I know, that right now,they would be going to Hell. Its been driving me crazy about how to lead them to Christ. I just HAVE to do it.

I've been having nightmares about family members and friends who don't have Jesus in their lives and its horrible. I mean, like I said, if my family was kidnapped, I wouldn't be like, "Oh well its really not on my shoulders - I didn't put them in the spot they are in." I'd be like, "I have to save you!"

Love to all,

Bex

Well I don't think the kidnapping thing is a good comparison though. Those that end up in hell do so willingly by rejecting Jesus. a person kidnapped had it happen against their will. I know that seems to not make sense when we feel they don't understand hell...nor believe in it...but the gospel message is about believing in Jesus not believing if there is a hell or not and the focus should be on Jesus. Jesus is our Savior from more then just hell...He has saved us from being a slave to sin...saved us from a spiritual death here and in the future...from so many things actually.

I feel when a person only focuses on hell many time it backfires for them. People need to see first how they need Jesus in their life 'now'...not for something after they die...and how being filled with the Holy Spirit improves our lives 'now'. Its so much more then just believe or burn in hell forever which too many reduce the gospel message too and this view causes many to really rebel against God...pushing them away from Him instead of too Him.

Anyway...as I said before when it comes down to it, only God can do the actual saving...unlike a situation with a kidnapper where you call the police and they hunt them down and 'save' them.

The best thing you can do for them right now is pray for their salvation! Prayer is an extremely powerful thing that isn't given enough credit too many times.

God bless

Bex4Jesus
Dec 15th 2008, 09:18 PM
Well I don't think the kidnapping thing is a good comparison though. Those that end up in hell do so willingly by rejecting Jesus. a person kidnapped had it happen against their will. I know that seems to not make sense when we feel they don't understand hell...nor believe in it...but the gospel message is about believing in Jesus not believing if there is a hell or not and the focus should be on Jesus. Jesus is our Savior from more then just hell...He has saved us from being a slave to sin...saved us from a spiritual death here and in the future...from so many things actually.

I feel when a person only focuses on hell many time it backfires for them. People need to see first how they need Jesus in their life 'now'...not for something after they die...and how being filled with the Holy Spirit improves our lives 'now'. Its so much more then just believe or burn in hell forever which too many reduce the gospel message too and this view causes many to really rebel against God...pushing them away from Him instead of too Him.

Anyway...as I said before when it comes down to it, only God can do the actual saving...unlike a situation with a kidnapper where you call the police and they hunt them down and 'save' them.

The best thing you can do for them right now is pray for their salvation! Prayer is an extremely powerful thing that isn't given enough credit too many times.

God bless

I keep coming back to this. How much worse is Hell then any idea of torment we can imagine???

moonglow
Dec 16th 2008, 01:08 AM
I keep coming back to this. How much worse is Hell then any idea of torment we can imagine???

Hell is not a place where demons are torturing people...nor do I believe are they physically burning either. The focus isn't on physical pain...why would it be when God is a spirit? And His concern is with the spirit? Yes it will be a horrible place...worse then these things I mentioned because its a speration from God, Himself...this time completely and totally. Even though nonbelievers don't believe in Him...He is still very much apart of everything...including them. It'll be like denying their is air to breath...until its totally cut off...pretty quickly you start believing there was air....30 second later, you are desperately wanting that air back in your life. This is how it will be for nonbelievers...they were suddenly and painfully realize how much God was in their lives...but it will be too late.

Anyway I know you are a college student ...will you be going home for Christmas break? And see some of this family you are concerned about? That might be an excellent time to talk to them about Christ. After all this time of the year focuses on Christ more then any other time and may be a great time to witness to them. :) Maybe you can talk them into going to a Christmas Eve services somewhere....then they will hear the Message. :)

God bless

chad
Dec 16th 2008, 02:57 AM
Hi Bex,

You could always ask God, Commit it to God in prayer?

Chad :rolleyes:



I understand what you mean and I know I can't do it all by myself, but do you understand what I was saying??? Hell is so terrible, its horrible beyond words. I know some of my family does not believe. So I know, that right now,they would be going to Hell. Its been driving me crazy about how to lead them to Christ. I just HAVE to do it.

I've been having nightmares about family members and friends who don't have Jesus in their lives and its horrible. I mean, like I said, if my family was kidnapped, I wouldn't be like, "Oh well its really not on my shoulders - I didn't put them in the spot they are in." I'd be like, "I have to save you!"

Love to all,

Bex

Bex4Jesus
Dec 16th 2008, 01:49 PM
Hi Bex,

You could always ask God, Commit it to God in prayer?

Chad :rolleyes:

But I don't think God leads everyone to Him, otherwise, we would all be Christian, you know???? Obviously there are TONS of people God does not 'make' follow Him, which leaves it up to us to help them find Jesus.

I know this is a bad example, but if you were in a burning building and you knew the way out but others didn't, wouldn't you help lead them out??? You wouldn't even think about just running away to save yourself.

Love to all,

Bex

moonglow
Dec 16th 2008, 02:33 PM
But I don't think God leads everyone to Him, otherwise, we would all be Christian, you know???? Obviously there are TONS of people God does not 'make' follow Him, which leaves it up to us to help them find Jesus.

I know this is a bad example, but if you were in a burning building and you knew the way out but others didn't, wouldn't you help lead them out??? You wouldn't even think about just running away to save yourself.

Love to all,

Bex

This isn't true...God does give everyone a chance by drawing them to Him:

John 12:32
"And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself."

He makes Himself know to everyone...

Romans 1:18
18 But God shows his anger from heaven against all sinful, wicked people who push the truth away from themselves. 19 For the truth about God is known to them instinctively. God has put this knowledge in their hearts. 20 From the time the world was created, people have seen the earth and sky and all that God made. They can clearly see his invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature. So they have no excuse whatsoever for not knowing God.

There are many people around the world where their are no churches, no bibles, no one to witness to them...yet they get saved! This happens because God makes Himself known to them...

Before white people came to America the American Indian's knew who God and Jesus were...how was that possible with no bibles, no one to tell them? Because God isn't limited by what we can do...He gave them a vision of Him and they accepted Him. They call Him the Great White Spirit...which is exactly what God is...a spirit...white for purity and great. :) Of course not all the Indians accepted Him and continued on in their pagan ways and idol worship. The point is though everyone does have a chance as God doesn't want to lose anyone...

Matthew 18:14
"So it is not the will of your Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones perish.

John 3:16
"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.

Of course this doesn't mean we shouldn't do our job in witnessing to people...faith comes by hearing...

Romans 10:16-18

16 However, they did not all heed the good news; for Isaiah says, "LORD, WHO HAS BELIEVED OUR REPORT?"

17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.

18 But I say, surely they have never heard, have they? Indeed they have;
"THEIR VOICE HAS GONE OUT INTO ALL THE EARTH,
AND THEIR WORDS TO THE ENDS OF THE WORLD."

God bless

Romber
Dec 16th 2008, 02:38 PM
So with Hell being like a million times worse than any Earthly torture, how can I just sit here and let people go to such a fate??? I feel so sad! :cry:

I know what you mean. Just remember you can't force what you want on people, but be gentle and show them slowly what may happen.

A good tool for those Naturalistic believers : The Truth of Hell (http://www.av1611.org/hell.html)

The site lists some decent empirical evidences, which can definitely make people think where they might be spending eternity.

Walstib
Dec 16th 2008, 03:03 PM
Hi Bex,


But I don't think God leads everyone to Him, otherwise, we would all be Christian, you know???? Obviously there are TONS of people God does not 'make' follow Him, which leaves it up to us to help them find Jesus. God does a pretty good job in His own timing I think. I myself believing in free will believe that is why God does not “make” people follow him. I would not assume you could “make” them do anything either. I remember going back to my family after first understanding that Jesus was who He says He is. So exited I could hardly contain myself. My father almost disowned me and said the most hurtful things I ever heard from him. I thought I could “help” do it and put the pressure on. Backfire big time.

I have had the most success witnessing when I ask God to use me how He wants. Thy will be done sort of thing. He may have another purpose and time for the person you think needs it today.

But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellence of the power may be of God and not of us. (2Co 4:7 NKJV)
I know this is a bad example, but if you were in a burning building and you knew the way out but others didn't, wouldn't you help lead them out??? You wouldn't even think about just running away to save yourself. You can stand and yell at them to follow you until you perish yourself. If they don’t want to come because they are trying to get all their gold and silver from the dresser first, they have the free will to do so. Think of the rest of the Lazerous story….

for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.' Abraham said to him, 'They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.' And he said, 'No, father Abraham; but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.' But he said to him, 'If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.' "(Luk 16:28-31 NKJV)

Now I am not saying don’t stay and call for them and just run out to save yourself, a few burns around the edges trying is honourable I think.

Peace,
Joe

moonglow
Dec 16th 2008, 03:15 PM
I know what you mean. Just remember you can't force what you want on people, but be gentle and show them slowly what may happen.

A good tool for those Naturalistic believers : The Truth of Hell (http://www.av1611.org/hell.html)

The site lists some decent empirical evidences, which can definitely make people think where they might be spending eternity.

Well now I know where people get this strange idea of hell being in the center of the earth...I don't believe it for one second.

And this verse they used to say people literally fell into hell in the bible:

Numbers 16:32-33 (New King James Version)

32 and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed them up, with their households and all the men with Korah, with all their goods. 33 So they and all those with them went down alive into the pit; the earth closed over them, and they perished from among the assembly.

The Adam Clarke Commentary (http://www.studylight.org/com/acc/view.cgi?book=nu&chapter=016)
And they go down quick into the pit
sheolah, a proof, among many others, that sheol, signifies here a chasm or pit of the earth, and not the place called hell; for it would be absurd to suppose that their houses had gone to hell; and it would be wicked to imagine that their little innocent children had gone thither, though God was pleased to destroy their lives with those of their iniquitous fathers.

the rich man in torment in the flames...if he was really burning, how could he be having a conversation? He would be screaming and its doubtful he would be aware others were there at all. Sites like this really bother me because they mix the truth in with some things that aren't true and twist scripture...:(

From the book "The Case for Faith" by Lee Strobel...some questions he asked J.P Moreland, trained in philosophy and science, about hell.

Lee: How could a loving God torture people forever in hell?

Moreland: For on thing, hell isn't a torture chamber. Hell is, first of all, about relationships--broken relationships. The Christian faith says that people matter intensely to God. If people matter, then so do relationships. In the bible, hell is separation or banishment from the most beautiful being in the world...God Himself. It's exclusion not only from God but also from those who have come to know and love Him.

Lee: Is hell a punishment for having broken God's standards, or is it a natural consequence of choosing to be separate from God?

Moreland: It's both. Make no mistake: hell IS punishment--but it's not a punishing. It's not torture. The punishment of hell is separation from God and the shame, anguish, and regret that go along with it. The pain may be both mental and physical, but it will be the pain and sorrow of final, unending banishment from God and the good life for which we were created. Hell is the final sentence that says you refused regularly to live in relationship with God, and the inevitable results of that choice is to be sent away from God for all eternity. It IS punishment. But it's also the natural consequence of a life that has been lived in a certain direction.

Lee: Is hell a physical place?

Moreland: Yes. The bible says that our bodies will be raised and our souls rejoined with them at the final judgment. Hell will need to be a physical place to house those physical bodies.

Lee: Will people burn in flames in hell?

Moreland: I believe that the imagery of flames the bible uses to describe hell is a figure of speech. Trying to take the flames of hell literally results in nonsense. For example, hell is described as a place of utter darkness. How can that be? Flames would light things up.

Here's a similar example: The bible says that, at His return Christ will come surrounded by flames and with a big word coming out of his mouth. Will he be unable to speak because he's choking on a sword? Few people consider that to be a literal sword. Instead, the sword in that passage of Scripture is an image that stands for the Word of God. The flames stand for Christ coming in judgment.

Another example: In Hebrews 12:29, God is called a consuming fire. Yet nobody thinks God is a cosmic Bunsen burner. Using the flame imagery is a way of saying he's a God of judgment.

Lee: What about hell being a place where worms constantly eat people's flesh?

Moreland: In Jesus' day, thousands of animals were sacrificed every week in the Temple, and there was a sewage system for the blood and fat to flow outside, where it gathered in a pool. There would have been worms and maggots constantly feeding on that waste. It must have been a very ugly---and smelly---place. When Jesus was teaching, he used this metaphor as a way of saying hell is worse than that disgusting place outside the city, a place all of His listeners would have known about.

Lee: Doesn't the phrase 'gnashing of teeth" used to describe hell mean that people are in pain and torture?

Moreland: "Gnashing of teeth" is an expression of rage at realizing you've just made a huge mistake. When you hear about people grinding their teeth or gritting their teeth today, it means their angry or frustrated, not that they are being tortured. If you've ever been around people who are really self-centered, you know they get angry when they don't get their way. I believe the gnashing of teeth mentioned in Scripture is an expression of the personality of the type of people who will end up in hell.

Lee: If hell isn't literally a fiery place with flesh-eating worms, what's so bad about being there"

Moreland: Any figure of speech has a literal point. What is figurative is the burning flame. What is literal is that this is a place of utter heartbreak. It's a loss of everything. The bible is trying to communicate that hell is the worse possible situation a person could ever find himself in.

Lee: If the people in hell are self-absorbed and self centered, is it possible that for them, heaven would be hell?

Moreland: Let me put it this way? Have you ever been around somebody who was unbelievably good-looking, extremely attractive, and alot smarter then you? When the two of you are in a group of people, the others will went to listen to him, not you. Suppose you don't care for that person, but you're kept in a room with him 24 hours a day for 30 year. That would be unbelievably difficult, even maddening.

Now multiply those qualities 10,000 times, and you'll get just a hint of what God is like. He knows everything. He's very attractive. He's morally pure. And if people do not fall passionately in love with Him, then to force them to have to be around him forever...doing the kinds of things that people who love him would want to do... would make them miserable. So, yes, hell is primarily a place for people who would not want to go to Heaven.

Lee: Who does everyone suffer the same in hell? That doesn't seem fair. Shouldn't people like Hitler suffer more?

Moreland: The bible teaches that there are different degrees of suffering in hell. One passage you can read about that is Matthew 11:20-24, Jesus says people wil be sentenced according to how they lived. There will be degrees of separation, isolation, and emptiness in hell. God's justice is proportional. There is not exactly the same experience for everyone.

Lee: Why are people punished forever? Wouldn't a loving God make the punishment fit the crime by not making hell last forever?

Moreland: This is a hard question to answer. When we think about the worse thing a person can do, usually we'll say its harming animals or destroying the environment or hurting another person. And, no question, all of those are horrible. But I believe that truly the worse thing a person can do is to mock and dishonor and refuse to love the person that we owe absolutely everything to: God our Creator.

You see, I know from experience that God is infinitely greater in his goodness, holiness, kindness, and justice that anyone esle. To think that a person could go through their whole life constantly ignoring him, constantly mocking him by the way they choose to live, saying, "I couldn't care less about what you put me her to do. I couldn't care less about your values or your Son's death for me. I'm going to ignore all that"...THAT'S the ultimate sin.

And its the only sin, when you come down to it, that lands people in hell. There will be murderers in Heaven...like the apostle Paul. There will be adulterers in heaven--like King David. And liars like Abraham and cheaters like Jacob. But what you won't find in heaven is anyone who consistently and persistently refused to have a relationship with Jesus Christ. That's that ultimate sin. And the consequence of that is everlasting separation from God.

I also don't believe anyone can just accidentally drill down into hell.

What's at the center of the earth? (http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/2226/whats-at-the-center-of-the-earth)
October 18, 2005

Dear Straight Dope:

What's at the earth's core? Molten lava? Rock? Hell? Someone told me no one knows for sure.

— B

The inner core of the earth is a hot, dense solid sphere, composed primarily of iron, with some nickel. Its diameter is about 2400 km, about 19% of the earth's diameter. There is some evidence [see reference 1] that the core is in hexagonal crystalline form, possibly one giant crystal!

Surrounding the inner core is a layer of outer core 2300 km thick. The outer core is liquid, again [2] mostly iron (85%) with some nickel (5%) and some lighter element(s) (10%). The heat-induced roiling in this liquid iron layer is what creates the earth's magnetic field. Together the outer and inner core comprise 1/8 of the earth's volume, but 1/3 of its mass.

On top of the outer core is a layer called the mantle. It's composed mostly of silicate minerals containing magnesium, iron, aluminum, and calcium [2]. The mantle is hot and malleable. It's 2900 km thick (45% of the earth's depth) and comprises 7/8 of the earth's volume and 2/3 of its mass.

God bless

Walstib
Dec 16th 2008, 03:23 PM
Hi Bex,

I just wanted to add that of the many people I have shared the Good News of Jesus *Gospel* with I don’t know what most have them have done afterward. And of maybe two or three I know say they now believe, I was just a very small part if any part at all. All the Glory goes to God.

ServantofTruth
Dec 16th 2008, 03:29 PM
I read a lot about Hell this weekend. What can I say, sometimes I need a kick in the butt to refocus on how important it is to spread the word. I know I am not ready yet, but when I think about how HORRIBLE Hell is, I feel unChristian for not spending ALL of my time trying to save people. Does anyone feel this way?

I mean, I read a lot of passages about Hell and its depicted as a lake of fire, a bottomless pit, a place where people will beg for a drop of water on their tongues.

And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth" (Matthew 25:30) (http://www.fillthevoid.org/Kjv/B40C025.htm#V30).

But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death" (Revelation 21:8) (http://www.fillthevoid.org/Kjv/B66C021.htm#V8).

"And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame " (Luke 16:24) (http://www.fillthevoid.org/Kjv/B42C016.htm#V24).

"And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom" (Luke 16:23) (http://www.fillthevoid.org/Kjv/B42C016.htm#V23).

"The sorrows of hell compassed me about; the snares of death prevented me;" (2 Samuel 22:6) (http://www.fillthevoid.org/Kjv/B10C022.htm#V6).


Its the worst thing that can happen to someone!! Don't we have a duty to spend ALL our time saving people? I mean if I knew my mom or dad was kidnapped by someone and was being tormented by them, would I go to school like normal? Work at the bookstore like normal? Socialize with my friends and waste time like I know I do? Of course not! I'd be out there hanging up signs or talking with the police every day or searching for clues! I'd be obssessed!

So with Hell being like a million times worse than any Earthly torture, how can I just sit here and let people go to such a fate??? I feel so sad! :cry:

Bex

P.S. I meant to put "save" in the thread instead of "say"! *embarrassed*

You must have read my post on the other topic about the scale of witnessing from doing almost nothing, living your life and answering questions only if by chance someone asks - all the way to giving up 'normal' life and just witnessing every minute possible.

At present i think you have 2 options as new in Christ. Either for the present you get stuck into the bible and learn and just live and answer the small things you already know or you ask your church/ mission organisations if you can join them. Make the sandwiches, drive people from a to b , and just play a support role as you watch, listen and learn.

Perhaps the moderators could suggest study methods? I personally suggest that you read the WHOLE bible and leave the subject of hell for the present. It looks like you've been using a computer or study aid to focus and this subject and it doesn't seem to be helping you. Contect is so important.

If you are eager - try 2 chapters a day like me, may be 3. Start at Matthew chapter 1. This time next year you'll have read the whole bible and can begin again. 5 or 6 read throughs and you'll be ready to do more. :) OK perhaps 2 only? SofTy.

Bex4Jesus
Dec 16th 2008, 03:55 PM
I feel like I am getting mixed messages. God may reveal Himself to people in different ways, but He gives us free will so people can reject God once or twice or more, but maybe eventually they will accept him, IF someone is there to help lead them in the right direction. But if no one is there to nudge them, it may never happen.

And whether Hell is REALLY fire or just super torment, its still totally horrible and I just can't figure out, how if you REALLY believe in Hell and how horrible it is, why you wouldn't spend more time leading people away?!?? Its SOOOOO confusing because that doesn't make sense to me at all.

Love to all,

Bex

Bex4Jesus
Dec 16th 2008, 03:56 PM
You must have read my post on the other topic about the scale of witnessing from doing almost nothing, living your life and answering questions only if by chance someone asks - all the way to giving up 'normal' life and just witnessing every minute possible.

At present i think you have 2 options as new in Christ. Either for the present you get stuck into the bible and learn and just live and answer the small things you already know or you ask your church/ mission organisations if you can join them. Make the sandwiches, drive people from a to b , and just play a support role as you watch, listen and learn.

Perhaps the moderators could suggest study methods? I personally suggest that you read the WHOLE bible and leave the subject of hell for the present. It looks like you've been using a computer or study aid to focus and this subject and it doesn't seem to be helping you. Contect is so important.

If you are eager - try 2 chapters a day like me, may be 3. Start at Matthew chapter 1. This time next year you'll have read the whole bible and can begin again. 5 or 6 read throughs and you'll be ready to do more. :) OK perhaps 2 only? SofTy.

I actually love studying the Bible online. I can google any topic and know what the Bible says about it, and go right to that Scripture. It actually HELPS me understand what the Bible says intead of hurting me.

Love to all,

Bex

moonglow
Dec 16th 2008, 04:06 PM
I feel like I am getting mixed messages. God may reveal Himself to people in different ways, but He gives us free will so people can reject God once or twice or more, but maybe eventually they will accept him, IF someone is there to help lead them in the right direction. But if no one is there to nudge them, it may never happen.

And whether Hell is REALLY fire or just super torment, its still totally horrible and I just can't figure out, how if you REALLY believe in Hell and how horrible it is, why you wouldn't spend more time leading people away?!?? Its SOOOOO confusing because that doesn't make sense to me at all.

Love to all,

Bex

Each of us have our own way of trying to lead people to Christ...depending on our calling from God on this. Some become pastors...go to college get their degrees in this and actually work in a church...some are called to be missionaries and travel to other countries where more are in need of hearing the gospel...some are called to teach the Word ...the bible shows we all have different roles in this. Some are called to just plant the seed..others to water it...and so on.

I am disabled and a single mom so for me I make video's that I put on youtube and Godtube that are always there, 24/7 and in that way they do the work for me constantly for those seeking...plus all my post on here that come up on google! anyone doing a search could find them easily enough...your posts will also appear on google...

Do you realize how many unsaved people are on the net daily? We can literally reach millions! :pp Not too mention there are Christian radio stations...Christians preaching the Word on TV nearly 24/7 also..plus many, many Christian sites on the internet....there are alot of options for those seeking...:)

So don't dismay so much...the Word IS out there! And reaching more and more around the world all the time. :)

God bless

moonglow
Dec 16th 2008, 04:11 PM
I actually love studying the Bible online. I can google any topic and know what the Bible says about it, and go right to that Scripture. It actually HELPS me understand what the Bible says intead of hurting me.

Love to all,

Bex

The problem I see in you doing this is you can easily land on sites that aren't Christian based...atheist sites...cult sites...JW sites, Mormon sites, etc, etc...you did a search on women in the bible and did a couple of threads on that where you seemed to think God thought less of women and you got this from searching the net. All you found was negative things about women in the bible and not all the positive...so I have to disagree and say your searching this way is hurting you...its hurting you by not giving a balanced view of the bible...

We can give you some trustworthy truly bible based sites if that is how you want to study the bible...rather then you just ending up who knows where...just do a post and asks us for them. The mods also check these links to make sure they are cult based for all our safety...

God bless

Bex4Jesus
Dec 16th 2008, 04:15 PM
I don't mind landing on nonChristian sites because NOW I double check everything against the Bible. I look for quotes. I don't just take peoples' opinions.

But really everyone here disagrees about like....EVERTHING, other than that Jesus was God in the flesh and provides salvation from our sins. Other than that, everyone disagrees about everything else. What does this passage mean? How do we interpret this?

So I don't mind landing on sites that disagree with me, because it lets me know what others think. Plus, how do you spread the Word if you don't know what the obections are going to be?

Love to all,

Bex

Walstib
Dec 16th 2008, 04:15 PM
I feel like I am getting mixed messages. God may reveal Himself to people in different ways, but He gives us free will so people can reject God once or twice or more, but maybe eventually they will accept him, IF someone is there to help lead them in the right direction. But if no one is there to nudge them, it may never happen. God can use people or He can do it Himself. Everything always gets deeper the more you look at it eh ;) Someone in another post told you about the two connected ropes you can’t see the middle of. Call God’s sovereignty and our free will one of those maybe. It can seem like conflict. And there are many who explain it as we don’t have free will. God is not dependant on us, but He can use us. I think.
And whether Hell is REALLY fire or just super torment, its still totally horrible and I just can't figure out, how if you REALLY believe in Hell and how horrible it is, why you wouldn't spend more time leading people away?!?? Its SOOOOO confusing because that doesn't make sense to me at all. Would you be able to ask us these questions if we were all out telling people about hell. We are all different members of the body with different gifts. 1 Corinthians 12 a good read. If a pastor spent all his time telling the unsaved about hell how would he have any time for his flock? Myself I would rather tell them about God’s love any day, that’s just me.

Peace,
Joe

Walstib
Dec 16th 2008, 04:24 PM
But really everyone here disagrees about like....EVERTHING,

I would say that is just how it appears on the surface, those who agree with each other don't post their agreement much. Strange in a way... I agree with Moonglow almost everytime I read one of her posts, but after almost 800 post I have still not had the chance to talk directly with her...that I can remember. *Hi Moonglow*.

Crazy as it sounds I think it is because of the agreement we share. This is an interesting place but one God is working through.

Peace,
Joe

moonglow
Dec 16th 2008, 04:41 PM
I don't mind landing on nonChristian sites because NOW I double check everything against the Bible. I look for quotes. I don't just take peoples' opinions.

But really everyone here disagrees about like....EVERTHING, other than that Jesus was God in the flesh and provides salvation from our sins. Other than that, everyone disagrees about everything else. What does this passage mean? How do we interpret this?

So I don't mind landing on sites that disagree with me, because it lets me know what others think. Plus, how do you spread the Word if you don't know what the obections are going to be?

Love to all,

Bex

Ok think about what you just said here for a second...you don't like us disagreeing...yet like finding sites that disagree with your view...:confused And we are currently disagreeing with you but you don't seem to like it much...but having a website disagree with you is ok...:confused

The disciples didn't agree with everything either...you'll find that in the bible and Paul even getting after Peter too for some false teaching...its in our nature to do debate and people learn alot doing this...they get a chance to see more then one view on any certain topic...then they pray of course and ask the Holy Spirit to guide them on the truth on this.


Plus, how do you spread the Word if you don't know what the obections are going to be?

In my first post or two to you on this thread I presented a nonbelievers objection to hell so you would be ready for it and ready to answer it...this is what you will hear the most about hell...'how can a loving God send people to hell'...which I posted the answer too in my post with the Lee Stroble comments from his book...so you would be ready to answer them!

Plus we have a Christian Answer forum on here where nonbelievers post to ask us questions about the bible, our faith and so forth. Check it out and see some of their questions and objections...

edited to add....I forgot to say that I and many others on here already know what their objections may be because we are out there witnessing...its safer for a new Christian like yourself, to ask us, rather then encountering these people head on yourself when you don't know enough scripture yet...we can give you their objections AND the answers. Some of these nonbelievers...hard core atheist can be very aggressive and I have seen new Christians give up their beliefs because they couldn't answer the atheist questions...they begin to doubt and soon fall away. The atheist are over joyed at this...:( Its a terrible thing to see...someone turn their backs on God simply because they lacked knowledge and apparently didn't have the support they needed to find the answers.

God bless

moonglow
Dec 16th 2008, 04:46 PM
I would say that is just how it appears on the surface, those who agree with each other don't post their agreement much. Strange in a way... I agree with Moonglow almost everytime I read one of her posts, but after almost 800 post I have still not had the chance to talk directly with her...that I can remember. *Hi Moonglow*.

Crazy as it sounds I think it is because of the agreement we share. This is an interesting place but one God is working through.

Peace,
Joe

Hi Walstib! :wave:

Nice to 'meet' you on here...lol.

You are right, many times we don't post saying 'I agree with so and so' unless we have something to add to it...we might rep them and say we liked what they said but only they can see it...no one else.

If we all agreed with each other all the time what would we have to talk about on here anyway...:lol: it would get kind of boring after awhile...:rolleyes:

God bless

chad
Dec 17th 2008, 04:09 AM
You should pray about it, i'm sure God will give you an answer.


Chad :rolleyes:



I feel like I am getting mixed messages. God may reveal Himself to people in different ways, but He gives us free will so people can reject God once or twice or more, but maybe eventually they will accept him, IF someone is there to help lead them in the right direction. But if no one is there to nudge them, it may never happen.

And whether Hell is REALLY fire or just super torment, its still totally horrible and I just can't figure out, how if you REALLY believe in Hell and how horrible it is, why you wouldn't spend more time leading people away?!?? Its SOOOOO confusing because that doesn't make sense to me at all.

Love to all,

Bex

Bex4Jesus
Dec 17th 2008, 02:01 PM
Ok think about what you just said here for a second...you don't like us disagreeing...yet like finding sites that disagree with your view...:confused And we are currently disagreeing with you but you don't seem to like it much...but having a website disagree with you is ok...:confused

The disciples didn't agree with everything either...you'll find that in the bible and Paul even getting after Peter too for some false teaching...its in our nature to do debate and people learn alot doing this...they get a chance to see more then one view on any certain topic...then they pray of course and ask the Holy Spirit to guide them on the truth on this.



In my first post or two to you on this thread I presented a nonbelievers objection to hell so you would be ready for it and ready to answer it...this is what you will hear the most about hell...'how can a loving God send people to hell'...which I posted the answer too in my post with the Lee Stroble comments from his book...so you would be ready to answer them!

Plus we have a Christian Answer forum on here where nonbelievers post to ask us questions about the bible, our faith and so forth. Check it out and see some of their questions and objections...

edited to add....I forgot to say that I and many others on here already know what their objections may be because we are out there witnessing...its safer for a new Christian like yourself, to ask us, rather then encountering these people head on yourself when you don't know enough scripture yet...we can give you their objections AND the answers. Some of these nonbelievers...hard core atheist can be very aggressive and I have seen new Christians give up their beliefs because they couldn't answer the atheist questions...they begin to doubt and soon fall away. The atheist are over joyed at this...:( Its a terrible thing to see...someone turn their backs on God simply because they lacked knowledge and apparently didn't have the support they needed to find the answers.

God bless

I think you are talking about different things.

I have no problem landing atheist sites or JW sites or whatever, because I need to know what their objections are going to be when I try and spread the Word. I'd be a ditz not to do my homework I think! So that's the anti-Christian people.

On the other hand, as I try to figure out what the answers ARE, I notice that all sorts of people on here, all of whom are Christian and TONS of whom know their Bibles backwards and forwards (I'm impressed!) still disagree about what the answers ARE.

Can you see the difference I am talking about? I know I'm not being very clear about this.

Love to all,

Bex

moonglow
Dec 17th 2008, 02:24 PM
I think you are talking about different things.

I have no problem landing atheist sites or JW sites or whatever, because I need to know what their objections are going to be when I try and spread the Word. I'd be a ditz not to do my homework I think! So that's the anti-Christian people.

On the other hand, as I try to figure out what the answers ARE, I notice that all sorts of people on here, all of whom are Christian and TONS of whom know their Bibles backwards and forwards (I'm impressed!) still disagree about what the answers ARE.

Can you see the difference I am talking about? I know I'm not being very clear about this.

Love to all,

Bex

Ok...I guess my concern is it helps knowing the bible well before diving into other ideas about our faith...its like walking in the lions den unprepared...I would never tell a new believer to do what you are doing because as I said before, I have seen far too many new believers lose their faith doing what you are doing...you need to be grounded in your faith..have a solid foundation before doing this.

Make sure you pray the Lord protects you before going onto these sites...actually you should be praying He even thinks its a good idea before you do this...let Him guide you in what you do so you please Him first.

God bless

Toymom
Dec 17th 2008, 03:07 PM
But really everyone here disagrees about like....EVERTHING, other than that Jesus was God in the flesh and provides salvation from our sins. Other than that, everyone disagrees about everything else. What does this passage mean? How do we interpret this?

That is the most important thing and that is what we must agree on. All of the rest are things that are on the tree of knowledge rather than on the tree of life.
We need to be those who focus on Christ.

God went through a process so that He could not only redeem our sins, but so that He could become the life-giving Spirit who can dwell in us and be our daily moment by moment life.

This process included incarnation, a sinless human living, an all-inclusive death that paid the price for all of our sins, resurrection, ascension, and becoming the Life-Giving Spirit who now can dwell in His redeemed and regenerated believers.

Hell is, for many people, a future event that may or may not occur and is not happening, as they understand it, to them now.
So, telling people that they can be saved from Hell may be as ineffective as telling them to be good so Santa Claus will give them nice toys.
They don't believe in hell so don't care about being saved from it.

However, we all are created with a human spirit, which is the part of us that is made to contact God and contain His life. Until we have Christ as our life, we all feel an emptiness that we try to fill with money, accomplishments, things, people, love, power, education, whatever.
And yet, no matter what things we acquire and what stuff we do, we will still feel an emptiness within until we have the Lord Himself living within us as our life. This is not in some imaginary future - this is now.
This is everyone's experience. Some may deny it and continue to try to fill their emptiness with other things, but only Christ will satisfy us.

He is the real food, the real drink and the real satisfaction. He is our peace, our hope, our faith, our life, our reality when He lives in us and this is NOW - not in the future after we die. Many people are not concerned with what happens after death because it is too far away and does not impact us now.

We all, however are concerned with our lives right now. And right now we can enjoy Christ as our life. Right now we can call upon His name. We can say "Lord Jesus, be my life, my peace, my faith and my joy." and He will be. He is everything we need - not only in the future to escape Hell, but right now to escape the daily hell that we live in when we exist in a life without God as our day by day moment by moment supply.

daughter
Dec 17th 2008, 03:18 PM
Hey Bex...

I agree with you, hell is a terrible place, a terrible state, and it's something that we don't want for anyone.

In order to talk about hell to non believers, we need to have a right view of God, and we need to make God, not man, the centre of our witnessing opportunities. I've noticed a shift in my thinking and witnessing in the three years I've been Christian.

I used to be so horrified at the idea of hell that when someone said to me, "how could you worship a God who allowed that" I was unable to respond... because part of me still agreed with them.

What happened was this. My husband (who at that time was not a believer... he was saved, thank God, and is now in heaven) asked me that very question. Then he asked me if he was going to hell.

If I had replied in the affirmative he'd have got angry. I remember knowing that I had to tell him the truth, but suddenly this intense sorrow rose up in me, and I couldn't say a word. I just cried.

Neil told me later that that convicted more than anything I could have said. It shocked him... he realised I wasn't just being intellectual, I was talking from the heart about something that I knew was real.

Nowadays when think of those in hell, or talk to others (believers and non believers) about hell, I keep God in mind first. God grieves, and mourns for the lost. But those who are cast out have only themselves to blame.

Recently I was talking with someone who insisted that God would let them into heaven, despite their sins, because "they were basically good." "Why would God put me in hell?"

I think I had a response from the Holy Spirit on this, and I'd like to share it with you.

"Why do you think you're going to heaven? You could be in heaven right now, if you wanted to. Heaven is where God is... if you hate God now, if you reject God now, what makes you think that you will want heaven when you die? You'll get exactly what you want... an eternity without the God you hate."

We need to help sinners realise that they are not good people, that they are God haters, God rejecters, God despisers... and pray that the Holy Spirit convicts them, and saves them out of their sins.


God should always be our focus, not hell... terrible though it is. It is only terrible because that is where God isn't.

vinsight4u8
Dec 17th 2008, 03:54 PM
Make sure that you have a strong relationship with Jesus first.

I will tell you though, from experience - be prayed up, even have others pray for the Word to not be hindered and for God to get the glory. It is possible to speak to groups of people right inside stores while the security guards just stand there listening too.

If you go to the streets - realize your town may have rules to abide by.

Know the Bible - the more you are sure about what is in it -the more people will understand how important it is to you and should be to them.

don't be too shy
listen for God's leading
have fun
keep learning - by using Scripture - not so much what so and so that preaches thinks -
If God has called you, then God will reveal things to you that you need to tell. Also many others seem to be running - and with the messages they preach reveal they were not sent by the Lord.

chad
Dec 17th 2008, 07:10 PM
Hi Daughter,

A while back, I wondered Why did God create hell? Why would God a loving God create a place like that.

I did not know the answer, so I prayed about it and asked God why Hell was created and why it was needed?

That night I had a horrible dream (Nightmare). I then understood why God created hell.

I thank God Hell was created and no longer question Gods wisdom in creating it.


Chad :rolleyes:


Hey Bex...

I used to be so horrified at the idea of hell that when someone said to me, "how could you worship a God who allowed that" I was unable to respond... because part of me still agreed with them.

Emanate
Dec 17th 2008, 07:51 PM
I would just like to point out, I was not saved for my fear of death or hell. I wanted life.

mikebr
Dec 17th 2008, 08:21 PM
I feel like I am getting mixed messages. God may reveal Himself to people in different ways, but He gives us free will so people can reject God once or twice or more, but maybe eventually they will accept him, IF someone is there to help lead them in the right direction. But if no one is there to nudge them, it may never happen.

And whether Hell is REALLY fire or just super torment, its still totally horrible and I just can't figure out, how if you REALLY believe in Hell and how horrible it is, why you wouldn't spend more time leading people away?!?? Its SOOOOO confusing because that doesn't make sense to me at all.

Love to all,

Bex


What are you doing about it? Yourself right now? Can you do anymore? Are you responsible for people going to hell?

ServantofTruth
Dec 17th 2008, 09:31 PM
I don't mind landing on nonChristian sites because NOW I double check everything against the Bible. I look for quotes. I don't just take peoples' opinions.

But really everyone here disagrees about like....EVERTHING, other than that Jesus was God in the flesh and provides salvation from our sins. Other than that, everyone disagrees about everything else. What does this passage mean? How do we interpret this?

So I don't mind landing on sites that disagree with me, because it lets me know what others think. Plus, how do you spread the Word if you don't know what the obections are going to be?

Love to all,

Bex

I want to share some biblical things i have learned on this site. You probably already know them but please bare with me.

With other CHRISTIANS you role is: Never to doubt their faith. To love them all. To encourage. When correcting, to do it with love, but also to listen to their replies and consider that you, not they, may be wrong. Never to argue.

With NON BELIEVERS - to present the gospel message of Jesus Christ. Never to argue. To love them at all times. You can only present the good news and accept their decision.

For YOURSELF. To learn God's stated Will in scripture/ the bible. To pray for everyone on earth. To find a smaller group to praise/ worship our Lord. Learn to love others and yourself.

Yes there is more to each section, that i have missed to remain brief.

When i came to this site, i still had a lot of growing to do and yes i argued and yes i didn't always show love, to put it mildly. I thought i knew it all from personal reading over 10 years, but i didn't and i still don't. :hmm: But i occassionally noticed someone who spoke sense and the next time i read what they wrote, well i gave it more time. Until i had quite a group of people i respected.

I now realise argueing when i disagree gets me nowhere. But occassionally i have a bad day and still make mistakes. But now i also step into arguements and try to bring peace.

Everyone here disagrees on everything - sorry you are wrong on this. I used to think along similar lines. It can depend in which forum you are in and how many posts people have done. Most senior members (those who have done 1 or 2,000 posts) argue less and have learned to differ politely and listen. Most of those people can conceed when the bible isn't rock solid in an area or particular question - say this is my personal position based on the whole bible and many years study - but there is room also for your position, even if i think i'm right.

You are hurting. Something is not right. You would have Peace if things were right. Peace within you. Please read this post a couple of times. Love SofTy.

sunsetssplendor
Dec 30th 2008, 06:06 PM
I read a lot about Hell this weekend. What can I say, sometimes I need a kick in the butt to refocus on how important it is to spread the word. I know I am not ready yet, but when I think about how HORRIBLE Hell is, I feel unChristian for not spending ALL of my time trying to save people. Does anyone feel this way?

I mean, I read a lot of passages about Hell and its depicted as a lake of fire, a bottomless pit, a place where people will beg for a drop of water on their tongues.

And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth" (Matthew 25:30) (http://www.fillthevoid.org/Kjv/B40C025.htm#V30).

But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death" (Revelation 21:8) (http://www.fillthevoid.org/Kjv/B66C021.htm#V8).

"And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame " (Luke 16:24) (http://www.fillthevoid.org/Kjv/B42C016.htm#V24).

"And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom" (Luke 16:23) (http://www.fillthevoid.org/Kjv/B42C016.htm#V23).

"The sorrows of hell compassed me about; the snares of death prevented me;" (2 Samuel 22:6) (http://www.fillthevoid.org/Kjv/B10C022.htm#V6).


Its the worst thing that can happen to someone!! Don't we have a duty to spend ALL our time saving people? I mean if I knew my mom or dad was kidnapped by someone and was being tormented by them, would I go to school like normal? Work at the bookstore like normal? Socialize with my friends and waste time like I know I do? Of course not! I'd be out there hanging up signs or talking with the police every day or searching for clues! I'd be obssessed!

So with Hell being like a million times worse than any Earthly torture, how can I just sit here and let people go to such a fate??? I feel so sad! :cry:

Bex

P.S. I meant to put "save" in the thread instead of "say"! *embarrassed*

I admire your passion and can honestly say I seldom feel this way. Right now I'm trying to make sure my entire household is saved. Perhaps another time or season I'll feel as passionately as you do. Blessings.

reformedct
Dec 30th 2008, 10:55 PM
I read a lot about Hell this weekend. What can I say, sometimes I need a kick in the butt to refocus on how important it is to spread the word. I know I am not ready yet, but when I think about how HORRIBLE Hell is, I feel unChristian for not spending ALL of my time trying to save people. Does anyone feel this way?

I mean, I read a lot of passages about Hell and its depicted as a lake of fire, a bottomless pit, a place where people will beg for a drop of water on their tongues.

And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth" (Matthew 25:30) (http://www.fillthevoid.org/Kjv/B40C025.htm#V30).

But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death" (Revelation 21:8) (http://www.fillthevoid.org/Kjv/B66C021.htm#V8).

"And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame " (Luke 16:24) (http://www.fillthevoid.org/Kjv/B42C016.htm#V24).

"And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom" (Luke 16:23) (http://www.fillthevoid.org/Kjv/B42C016.htm#V23).

"The sorrows of hell compassed me about; the snares of death prevented me;" (2 Samuel 22:6) (http://www.fillthevoid.org/Kjv/B10C022.htm#V6).


Its the worst thing that can happen to someone!! Don't we have a duty to spend ALL our time saving people? I mean if I knew my mom or dad was kidnapped by someone and was being tormented by them, would I go to school like normal? Work at the bookstore like normal? Socialize with my friends and waste time like I know I do? Of course not! I'd be out there hanging up signs or talking with the police every day or searching for clues! I'd be obssessed!

So with Hell being like a million times worse than any Earthly torture, how can I just sit here and let people go to such a fate??? I feel so sad! :cry:

Bex

P.S. I meant to put "save" in the thread instead of "say"! *embarrassed*


yes, hell is a terribel terrible place beyond our imaginations. However when witnessing, remember not to FOCUS on hell. The FOCUS should be on the mercy, love, and sacrifice of God for us undeserving sinners. remember that the gospel is GOOD NEWS lol

reformedct
Dec 30th 2008, 11:06 PM
What are you doing about it? Yourself right now? Can you do anymore? Are you responsible for people going to hell?


Our job is to preach the gospel and make disciples. thats it.

Share the gospel and teach people to mature in faith

It is not our job to force people to make a decision on the spot. It is the Spirit and the kindness of God and a godly fear that will lead them to repentance.

Some people can be pleaded with for years and never accept the gospel.

We are to LEAD people to Christ. Once they are there, it is up to the Holy Spirit to convict them and as we see with Lydia in Acts, God opens the heart so pepole can recieve.


This is why i dont really agree with alter calls. As a youth i went to so many alter calls i cant remember. Often times i have been up there and all the people next to me where looking at eeach other with one eye open lol. its a joke. The reality is EVERYONE WANTS TO BE "SAVED" FROM HELL AND GO TO HEAVEN. SO when people say, "who wants to be saved? just come on down!", we have to be careful. Everyone wants heaven and not hell but not everyone wants Jesus to be in charge when they get to heaven.

No one wants hell and everyone wants heaven. But heaven wasnt made for people who didnt want hell. Heaven was designed for the people who love Jesus!;)


The object is not to scare people into heaven but to show them the love of God in the cross in hopes that they would recieve Jesus with a willing, repentant and joyful heart.

If you were God, how would you like if everyone was only serving you so they didnt have to go to hell? How would you feel if no one served you out of love for you, but because they just wanted to save their skin?


EVEN Jesus Himself didnt start his ministry with HELL.

Did he say repent, or you will go to this terrible place called hell?

later on he did say this, but he did not start with hell

he said repent and BELIEVE THE GOSPEL for the KINGDOM OF GOD IS AT HAND. the focus is the Kinggdom of God, where there is everlasting life with the loving God of the universe and all His saints

mikebr
Dec 30th 2008, 11:27 PM
The object is not to scare people into heaven but to show them the love of God in the cross in hopes that they would recieve Jesus with a willing, repentant and joyful heart.

If you were God, how would you like if everyone was only serving you so they didnt have to go to hell? How would you feel if no one served you out of love for you, but because they just wanted to save their skin?

I've often asked why hell is a Christian's best arguement for loving God.

It's kinda like love Him or else. I think that's why we don't experience a lot of love. I am of the belief that we become the God we serve. Serve a loving God and you will be loving. Serve a vengeful one and you are vengeful. Its pretty easy to tell who's serving which one.

innerspaced
Dec 31st 2008, 01:56 AM
I think the reason you don't see more of an all-out-panic to save people is because deep down inside, most people know the truth...that hell doesn't exist.

You can't have an all-loving God that would commit you to eternal torment. It really does not make sense. The God you speak of wouldn't do that.

JC4ME
Dec 31st 2008, 07:13 AM
I think the reason you don't see more of an all-out-panic to save people is because deep down inside, most people know the truth...that hell doesn't exist.

You can't have an all-loving God that would commit you to eternal torment. It really does not make sense. The God you speak of wouldn't do that.

God is not all-loving, He is just and holy. If you deserve to go to Hell, that is where you will go. Yes, this means: gays, self-abusers, meat eaters (I consider this a sin), law-breakers etc. And most importantly, non-believers. Unfortunately for me this fits most of my family, so I find myself in a similar position. I have tried to convert to no avail, they have made up their minds. I don't want to 2nd guess the will of the Almighty, but He clearly seems to want them to go to Hell, so who am I to complain?
Maybe this is the answer you are looking for, you cannot save these people they are destined for Hell and eternal torment.

I hope I could be of help. And may God look over those He has punished.

Firstfruits
Dec 31st 2008, 01:07 PM
I feel like I am getting mixed messages. God may reveal Himself to people in different ways, but He gives us free will so people can reject God once or twice or more, but maybe eventually they will accept him, IF someone is there to help lead them in the right direction. But if no one is there to nudge them, it may never happen.

And whether Hell is REALLY fire or just super torment, its still totally horrible and I just can't figure out, how if you REALLY believe in Hell and how horrible it is, why you wouldn't spend more time leading people away?!?? Its SOOOOO confusing because that doesn't make sense to me at all.

Love to all,

Bex

Have you been asked by someone that is not yet saved why you live as you do? That could lead you to giving your reasons for doing so, knowing what is to come concerning Hell and not wanting to end up there. :idea:

God bless you!

Firstfruits

mikebr
Dec 31st 2008, 01:29 PM
God is not all-loving, He is just and holy. If you deserve to go to Hell, that is where you will go. Yes, this means: gays, self-abusers, meat eaters (I consider this a sin), law-breakers etc. And most importantly, non-believers. Unfortunately for me this fits most of my family, so I find myself in a similar position. I have tried to convert to no avail, they have made up their minds. I don't want to 2nd guess the will of the Almighty, but He clearly seems to want them to go to Hell, so who am I to complain?
Maybe this is the answer you are looking for, you cannot save these people they are destined for Hell and eternal torment.

I hope I could be of help. And may God look over those He has punished.

Maybe your problem is that you have become like the God you serve. Who in the heck would want to be a Christian if God is like what you describe? Also you are trying to convert them. I think that's the Holy Spirit's job.

mikebr
Dec 31st 2008, 01:33 PM
I think the reason you don't see more of an all-out-panic to save people is because deep down inside, most people know the truth...that hell doesn't exist.

You can't have an all-loving God that would commit you to eternal torment. It really does not make sense. The God you speak of wouldn't do that.

Yep, someone said one time, "What we believe, we do." There is a quote by an athiest who said that if he believed what Christians believe about hell, he would crawl on his hands and knees over broken glass to make sure people knew about it. What's wrong with us?

sunsetssplendor
Dec 31st 2008, 06:48 PM
God is not all-loving, He is just and holy. If you deserve to go to Hell, that is where you will go. Yes, this means: gays, self-abusers, meat eaters (I consider this a sin), law-breakers etc. And most importantly, non-believers. Unfortunately for me this fits most of my family, so I find myself in a similar position. I have tried to convert to no avail, they have made up their minds. I don't want to 2nd guess the will of the Almighty, but He clearly seems to want them to go to Hell, so who am I to complain?
Maybe this is the answer you are looking for, you cannot save these people they are destined for Hell and eternal torment.

I hope I could be of help. And may God look over those He has punished.


It's a good thing you consider this a sin and not God.

monergist
Dec 31st 2008, 08:33 PM
This is only my second post. I had to lurk for a while before deciding that this board is worth spending time on. Thankfully, this forum seems full of sincere people.

Now, on to your question.

I agree that hell is a horrible place. However, it's very important to keep hell in the proper perspective. Everybody who goes to hell deserves the eternal wrath of God. We are all sinners who deserve hell. I am, Mother Theresa, St. Augustine, St. Paul, and even my 2 and 4 year old boys deserve God's eternal wrath. Hell isn't a place where God has a blast torturing people. On the contrary, God takes no pleasure in the death of anyone. However, God's character, specifically his justice, demands that sin be punished.

So, if anybody goes to hell, it's not because YOU didn't do enough. It's because they are sinners and hate God. Yes, we must absolutely evangelize, and we must be serious about it, but God converts people. Great arguments are important, scripture is important, preaching the gospel is important, but the work of the Holy Spirit is what brings people to Christ.

So, do what you can, but don't beat yourself up about it. You're not responsible for anybody that goes to hell. They are.

God bless.

Bex4Jesus
Dec 31st 2008, 08:40 PM
Your little boys deserve God's eternal wrath??? Uhhh I don't think I agree with that at all. Jesus said all children were innocent.

Bex

jrick
Dec 31st 2008, 08:55 PM
Your little boys deserve God's eternal wrath??? Uhhh I don't think I agree with that at all. Jesus said all children were innocent.

Bex

Where? :confused

monergist
Dec 31st 2008, 09:08 PM
Your little boys deserve God's eternal wrath??? Uhhh I don't think I agree with that at all. Jesus said all children were innocent.

Bex

Here's one proof text of many:

Psalms 51:5
Behold, I was shapen in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me.

We are born sinners. I've never had to teach my children to disobey. They know how to do it naturally. I've never had to teach them to be selfish, or to lash out in anger at something they don't like. That came naturally for them. Why? Because they are sinners. I've had to teach them to obey, to love others and not only themselves.

Jesus didn't say children are innocent. Here's what he said:

Mark 10:13-16
13People were bringing little children to Jesus to have him touch them, but the disciples rebuked them. 14When Jesus saw this, he was indignant. He said to them, "Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these. 15I tell you the truth, anyone who will not receive the kingdom of God like a little child will never enter it." 16And he took the children in his arms, put his hands on them and blessed them

So, what does he mean? Does he mean that children are innocent? If they are, then do they need a savior? Is Jesus contradiction the witness of the entirety of scripture that tells us we all need Christ, that we are totally dependent on God for our salvation, or is he saying something other than "children are innocent"?

I agree that children are MORE innocent than adults, but by God's standards the only innocent person to ever live is Jesus Christ.

God bless.

Bex4Jesus
Dec 31st 2008, 09:13 PM
Please explain to me how a baby sins.

jrick
Dec 31st 2008, 09:19 PM
Please explain to me how a baby sins.

Every human is a sinner, even if they have not committed any actual sins. There is another type of sin, called original sin, which is passed down from our parents (Adam and Eve). This explains how we were conceived and born in sin.

Bex4Jesus
Dec 31st 2008, 09:22 PM
See, I don't agree with that part. I know people sin, and your first sin probably happens when you are pretty young, but old enough to know better. But saying we are "born" with sin - I don't agree with that. I just think its meant to make us feel extra guilty. We can feel guilty enough about the things we ACTUALLY do, in my opinion. I know I can, at least.

Love to all,

Bex

jrick
Dec 31st 2008, 09:28 PM
Then how do you explain Psalm 51:5?

monergist
Dec 31st 2008, 09:31 PM
See, I don't agree with that part. I know people sin, and your first sin probably happens when you are pretty young, but old enough to know better. But saying we are "born" with sin - I don't agree with that. I just think its meant to make us feel extra guilty. We can feel guilty enough about the things we ACTUALLY do, in my opinion. I know I can, at least.

Love to all,

Bex

What we think isn't really important. What matters is what our God has revealed to us through scripture. He has told us that we are all responsible, and we all need Christ. Nowhere in scripture is an exception made for children. We can't pick and choose what we want to believe out of the Bible.

moonglow
Dec 31st 2008, 09:34 PM
Ok look all you guys are doing is confusing her here...yes we are born with a sin nature! But a baby has not actually sinned...yes toddler will hit and bite each other over a toy, showing that sin nature but they are not held accountable at this young age...they don't know right from wrong, nor do they know they need a Savior. Christ makes a way TO Heaven for children so if they die before the age of understanding they can go to Heaven...we see this clearly in that verse posted:

Mark 10:13-16
13People were bringing little children to Jesus to have him touch them, but the disciples rebuked them. 14When Jesus saw this, he was indignant. He said to them, "Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these. 15I tell you the truth, anyone who will not receive the kingdom of God like a little child will never enter it." 16And he took the children in his arms, put his hands on them and blessed them

God bless

ServantofTruth
Dec 31st 2008, 09:37 PM
However big a tree grows it still needs its roots. That root is Love. When we look at complexities, grow in faith, we must keep feeding through our roots.

I have sometimes looking at complex areas and become lost in the branches and leaves, forgotten my firm trunk and roots.

My advice is while you look at these things that are important to you at the moment, at the same time, read a chapter of the gospels each day. Pray for guidance in both that reading, these questions and your daily life.

I know you know this - look to the Cross of Jesus Christ. Don't just look, fall on your knees. He loves you. We love you. SofTy.

moonglow
Dec 31st 2008, 09:37 PM
What we think isn't really important. What matters is what our God has revealed to us through scripture. He has told us that we are all responsible, and we all need Christ. Nowhere in scripture is an exception made for children. We can't pick and choose what we want to believe out of the Bible.

People choose hell...a baby cannot chose hell by rejecting Christ...this is why Christ make a way for them. If you want to worship a God that throws babies into hell...go ahead..but this isn't the God I know from scripture. One that shows mercy and one we are told is love.

1 John 4:8
He who does not love does not know God, for God is love

God bless

jrick
Dec 31st 2008, 09:49 PM
Ok look all you guys are doing is confusing her here...yes we are born with a sin nature! But a baby has not actually sinned...yes toddler will hit and bite each other over a toy, showing that sin nature but they are not held accountable at this young age...they don't know right from wrong, nor do they know they need a Savior. Christ makes a way TO Heaven for children so if they die before the age of understanding they can go to Heaven...we see this clearly in that verse posted:

Mark 10:13-16
13People were bringing little children to Jesus to have him touch them, but the disciples rebuked them. 14When Jesus saw this, he was indignant. He said to them, "Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these. 15I tell you the truth, anyone who will not receive the kingdom of God like a little child will never enter it." 16And he took the children in his arms, put his hands on them and blessed them

God bless

Read verse 15 again. Doesn't this mean that only those with a child-like faith will be saved?

Even though a baby may not have committed any actual sins, it is still just as guilty of God's wrath as any other person. Of course, this gets into the whole debate about "does a child go to Heaven or Hell if he/she dies in a miscarriage or something".

theBelovedDisciple
Dec 31st 2008, 09:51 PM
It's a good thing you consider this a sin and not God.



I agree with Sunsetssplendor....



:hmm:

And while they yet believed not for joy, and wondered, he said unto them, Have ye here any meat?


And they gave him (Jesus) a piece of a broiled fish, and of an honeycomb.



And he took [it], and did eat before them.


If eating meat is a 'sin'.. then what was Jesus doing here eating the (flesh) MEAT of a fish?

-------------------------------------------------------------

I have tried to convert to no avail,

Just to state it simply..

It's GOD who CONVERTS... He Calls,, He Draws, He CONVERTS, and He Empowers... the Born Again Christian to live for Him...


I don't see anywhere in the Bible where 'conversion' is the Job of Men.. but its the Work of God Himself... and its thru His Will....

moonglow
Dec 31st 2008, 10:03 PM
Read verse 15 again. Doesn't this mean that only those with a child-like faith will be saved?

It means both the children and those with child like faith.


Even though a baby may not have committed any actual sins, it is still just as guilty of God's wrath as any other person. Of course, this gets into the whole debate about "does a child go to Heaven or Hell if he/she dies in a miscarriage or something".

That's right it does and I have debated this many times before too and used that exact same verse. God isn't out looking for people to throw into hell...too many times that is how He is portrayed to the extreme that yes even those lost in the womb have no chance...but this is contrary to His nature of mercy! Where is the mercy in that?

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

How can a little child, let alone a baby..or those that died before birth have any way of coming to repentance when they know nothing? This is why I believe Christ made a way for them.

God bless

monergist
Jan 1st 2009, 03:08 PM
People choose hell...a baby cannot chose hell by rejecting Christ...this is why Christ make a way for them. If you want to worship a God that throws babies into hell...go ahead..but this isn't the God I know from scripture. One that shows mercy and one we are told is love.

1 John 4:8
He who does not love does not know God, for God is love

God bless

I don't think I ever said I worship a God that throws babies in hell. What I said is that we all need Christ, including babies. The "age of accountability" is NOT a Biblical concept. Paul didn't say, "All have fallen short of the glory of God, except babies."

moonglow
Jan 1st 2009, 04:05 PM
I don't think I ever said I worship a God that throws babies in hell. What I said is that we all need Christ, including babies. The "age of accountability" is NOT a Biblical concept. Paul didn't say, "All have fallen short of the glory of God, except babies."

But a baby cannot choose right? How can a baby repent? Then that leaves them in hell from what you are saying which is why I said what I said to you. You left no options for them but to end up in hell.

I do believe the idea of the age of accountability is bibical.

This article explains it well I think: The Age of Accountability (http://www.learnthebible.org/q_a_age_of_accountability.htm)

Here is another one that makes some other equally good points:

The Age of Accountability
by Dave Miller, Ph.D. (http://www.apologeticspress.org/articles/2256)
Long ago, the prophet Ezekiel, after contrasting the behavior of a father with his son, stated unequivocally: “The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not bear the guilt of the father, nor the father bear the guilt of the son” (18:20; cf. vss. 2-19). Jesus, Himself, demonstrated the spiritually safe condition of children when He stated: “Assuredly, I say to you, unless you are converted and become as little children, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven” (Matthew 18:3). Adults must become like children if they wish to be saved! Children hardly can be spiritually depraved! Christ followed up this declaration with a comparable observation: “Let the little children come to Me, and do not forbid them; for of such is the kingdom of heaven” (Matthew 19:14).

Since all people are the “offspring of God” (Acts 17:29), they come into this world innocent of sin. That is why Paul, in pointing out that God preplanned to bring Christ into the world through Jacob rather than Esau, stated that the decision was made prior to the birth of the boys: “[F]or the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil” (Romans 9:11, emp. added). Likewise, God declared that the King of Tyre, like everyone else, had come into the world guiltless, but had become sinful due to his own choices: “You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created, till iniquity was found in you” (Ezekiel 28:15). If, at conception, God “forms the spirit of man within him” (Zechariah 12:1), why would anyone wish to insist that man’s spirit is, nevertheless, corrupt?(read the rest at the link)

God bless

monergist
Jan 1st 2009, 04:18 PM
Moonglow,

There are much deeper issues here that are coloring our discussion. I read the article you suggested, and it seems to me that it comes down to the classic Reformed vs. Arminian issue. The "age of accountability" assumes the Arminian view of atonement.

Can babies repent? By the grace of God anyone can repent and trust in Christ. Just because a baby can't verbalize their acceptance of Christ does not mean that a conversion has not occurred.

Here's something else to think about. If children don't need to repent and be saved through the blood of Christ, isn't abortion a really good thing? If we can send babies to eternity before they have a chance to offend God, then we should encourage abortion, don't you think?

God bless.

moonglow
Jan 1st 2009, 04:31 PM
Moonglow,

There are much deeper issues here that are coloring our discussion. I read the article you suggested, and it seems to me that it comes down to the classic Reformed vs. Arminian issue. The "age of accountability" assumes the Arminian view of atonement.

Can babies repent? By the grace of God anyone can repent and trust in Christ. Just because a baby can't verbalize their acceptance of Christ does not mean that a conversion has not occurred.

Here's something else to think about. If children don't need to repent and be saved through the blood of Christ, isn't abortion a really good thing? If we can send babies to eternity before they have a chance to offend God, then we should encourage abortion, don't you think?

God bless.

Actually it hadn't occurred to me this would end up being a Calvinist vs Arminian issue...guess I never saw it that way...I saw it as the grace and mercy of God.

The question on abortion has come up before...

If babies go to heaven when they die, why is abortion wrong? (http://www.carm.org/evidence/babies.htm)



There is debate on whether or not all babies go to heaven when they die. But, for the sake of argument, let's say that all babies go to heaven when they die. If that is so, then why would abortion be wrong since it would be sending the person to heaven?
The reason abortion is wrong is because it is taking the life of the unborn child who has committed no wrong. In other words, the child is not being put to death for a sin that it has committed. It is simply being put to death to make someone else's life more convenient.1 It is God who gives life and takes it away. There is an exception though where God makes allowance for capital punishment. "For it [governing authorities] is a minister of God to you for good. But if you do what is evil, be afraid; for it does not bear the sword for nothing; for it is a minister of God, an avenger who brings wrath upon the one who practices evil," (Rom. 13:4). This latter condition is, of course, carried out under due process of law and is reserved for those who "practice evil," i.e., murderers, rapists, kidnappers, etc.
The unborn do not fall under this category deserving capital punishment. They are simply unborn, human lives. When people have abortions they are taking into their own hands the taking life that is not permitted by God.
Whether or not aborted babies go to heaven is not the issue because the ends does not justify the means. God is the taker of life, not man.

Why should an unborn baby have to suffer in hell for the sins of the mother anyway? If the mother is so unconcerned about the life of the baby, she sure wouldn't be concerned where the baby spent forever anyway...more then likely that is the last thing she is considering...(I am speaking in general terms here of course and realize some Christian women have had abortions for varying reasons and have considered where their baby will spend eternity)


Can babies repent? By the grace of God anyone can repent and trust in Christ. Just because a baby can't verbalize their acceptance of Christ does not mean that a conversion has not occurred.

You would have to prove that with scripture.

God bless

monergist
Jan 1st 2009, 07:23 PM
Moonglow,

Whenever the topic of atonement is under discussion, the Reformed/Arminian issues will raise their head.

The burden of proof is on you. The "age of accountability" is never stated in scripture. The concept of universal need of Christ is, as all have fallen short of the glory of God. The article you posted earlier used the story of David to account for the age of accountability, but that issue isn't raised in the scripture, and using a story as the primary text for the foundation of a doctrine isn't a very good hermaneutic. We should use explicit and clear scripture (Genesis 6:5, Job 15:14-16, Psalms 51:5, John 3:3, Romans 5:12, Romans 3:9-19) to determine what is implicit in the text. Scripture is clear that all have fallen short, and all need Christ.

Denying that ALL need Christ has been considered heresy by the church since the beginning. Why? Because it plainly contradicts scriptures teaching of humanity's sinfulness, deep separation from God, and absolute need of the cross for salvation. It undermines the gospel in very profound ways.

God bless.

appletonbill
Jan 1st 2009, 08:06 PM
God is not all-loving, He is just and holy. If you deserve to go to Hell, that is where you will go. Yes, this means: gays, self-abusers, meat eaters (I consider this a sin), law-breakers etc. And most importantly, non-believers. Unfortunately for me this fits most of my family, so I find myself in a similar position. I have tried to convert to no avail, they have made up their minds. I don't want to 2nd guess the will of the Almighty, but He clearly seems to want them to go to Hell, so who am I to complain?
Maybe this is the answer you are looking for, you cannot save these people they are destined for Hell and eternal torment.

I hope I could be of help. And may God look over those He has punished.

IF you deserve to go to Hell? Guess what? We ALL deserve to go to Hell. If you have ever broken even ONE of the commandments, you deserve Hell. Jesus died on the cross for ALL of our sins. Every one. Have you ever passed a homeless, hungry person on the street? Oh-Oh, you should have taken that person in, and given him something to eat. Sin, is anything you do or don't do, that does not meet God's mark. Eating meat is a sin? Acts 11:7-10, Then I heard a voice telling me, 'Get up, Peter. Kill and eat.' I replied, 'Surely not, Lord! Nothing impure or unclean has ever entered my mouth.' The voice spoke from heaven a second time, 'Do not call anything impure that God has made clean.'

moonglow
Jan 1st 2009, 08:26 PM
Moonglow,

Whenever the topic of atonement is under discussion, the Reformed/Arminian issues will raise their head.

The burden of proof is on you. The "age of accountability" is never stated in scripture. The concept of universal need of Christ is, as all have fallen short of the glory of God. The article you posted earlier used the story of David to account for the age of accountability, but that issue isn't raised in the scripture, and using a story as the primary text for the foundation of a doctrine isn't a very good hermaneutic. We should use explicit and clear scripture (Genesis 6:5, Job 15:14-16, Psalms 51:5, John 3:3, Romans 5:12, Romans 3:9-19) to determine what is implicit in the text. Scripture is clear that all have fallen short, and all need Christ.

Denying that ALL need Christ has been considered heresy by the church since the beginning. Why? Because it plainly contradicts scriptures teaching of humanity's sinfulness, deep separation from God, and absolute need of the cross for salvation. It undermines the gospel in very profound ways.

God bless.

The word trinity also isn't found in the bible and neither is rapture and others, yet the concept is there. Sounds like to me you are trying to deflect since you cannot come up with scriptures showing God will somehow enable an infant or preborn child about to die, to repent and what would they repent of exactly?


The article you posted earlier used the story of David to account for the age of accountability, but that issue isn't raised in the scripture, and using a story as the primary text for the foundation of a doctrine isn't a very good hermaneutic.

You don't think it was odd that David wept for his child until the child died? Then made the statement he would one day be with that child? Because a verse wasn't inserted there saying...'this shows God has mercy on children'..you think it can be discounted? That makes no sense. Most of the stories in the bible do not announce the lessons in them to be learned, why would this one be any different?

On this passage:

Romans 3:9-19

All Have Sinned

9 What then? Are we better than they? Not at all. For we have previously charged both Jews and Greeks that they are all under sin.
10 As it is written:


“ There is none righteous, no, not one;
11 There is none who understands;
There is none who seeks after God.
12 They have all turned aside;
They have together become unprofitable;
There is none who does good, no, not one.”
13 “ Their throat is an open tomb;
With their tongues they have practiced deceit”;

“ The poison of asps is under their lips”;
14 “ Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness.”
15 “ Their feet are swift to shed blood;
16 Destruction and misery are in their ways;
17 And the way of peace they have not known.”
18 “ There is no fear of God before their eyes.”
19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

How is a child, a baby able to curse when they cannot speak? How is a baby to turn away from God when they don't know God...when I read these passage and others the content is always for the understanding adult. The few passages about children do not condemn them nor speak to them like this. When Jesus takes the little children to His lap He does not call them liars and thieves...He welcomes them with love and open arms. Why can you not see that?
In infant cannot deny Christ


Denying that ALL need Christ has been considered heresy by the church since the beginning. Why? Because it plainly contradicts scriptures teaching of humanity's sinfulness, deep separation from God, and absolute need of the cross for salvation. It undermines the gospel in very profound ways.

In infant cannot deny Christ...

This concept of age of accountability is nothing new to the board and has been discussed many times on here. Apparently it is not considered heresy or the board would have rules against it and stop all discussions on it. Yet this is a subject that weights heavily on people's minds and isn't an issue we should be expected to sweep under the rug because dealing with it might mean coming to the conclusion God would allow fetuses, babies and young children to be tormented in hell forever simply for being conceived. This makes God into a monster and on that front, I would see it as hectically but yet some have viewpoints that allow for this though they would never see it as brutally as I just put it...to do so would cause too much turmoil in their doctrinal beliefs.

Lets do this instead ..because the age of accountability can be clouded by emotions....how do you suppose the OT believers were saved when Jesus had not yet come into the picture for them to believe on to be saved?

God bless

jrick
Jan 1st 2009, 08:33 PM
Let's suppose that someone (other than Jesus) was perfect and had never sinned, nor had any original sin. What would happen to him if he denied Christ? Because he would be perfect, he would have no need for a savior, and would still go to Heaven. Denying Christ does not condemn you, but unforgiven sin, which can only be forgiven through Christ.

quiet dove
Jan 1st 2009, 09:05 PM
Let's suppose that someone (other than Jesus) was perfect and had never sinned, nor had any original sin. What would happen to him if he denied Christ? Because he would be perfect, he would have no need for a savior, and would still go to Heaven. Denying Christ does not condemn you, but unforgiven sin, which can only be forgiven through Christ.


Problem there is the Bible says "all men have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God" so it's a mute point to ask that question really.

We are not separted from God upon our first sin, we are spiritually separated because we are sinners from birth, we don't have to wait until our first sin for this separation to happen.

Rom 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

jrick
Jan 1st 2009, 09:07 PM
Problem there is the Bible says "all men have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God" so it's a mute point to ask that question really.

We are not separted from God upon our first sin, we are spiritually separated because we are sinners from birth, we don't have to wait until our first sin for this separation to happen.

Rom 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Yes, but it was a hypothetical question. ;)

monergist
Jan 1st 2009, 10:35 PM
The word trinity also isn't found in the bible and neither is rapture and others, yet the concept is there. Sounds like to me you are trying to deflect since you cannot come up with scriptures showing God will somehow enable an infant or preborn child about to die, to repent and what would they repent of exactly?

Ok moonglow, here you go. Notice that I'm using a CONSISTENT hermeneutic here. The passages I cited earlier to show humanity's need for Christ did not say "except for babies" as you have said they must, and neither does this scripture say, "except for babies". I neither case, am I making an exception for babies out of thin air.

Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Ephesians 2:8-10
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

Notice that both passages emphasize the fact that salvation is a GIFT. Can God give a gift to a baby? I say yes. Before my oldest was born he had been given many gifts by family and friends. Could he accept them? No. Were they his? Yes. So, the burden of proof is on you to show the age of accountability.



You don't think it was odd that David wept for his child until the child died? Then made the statement he would one day be with that child? Because a verse wasn't inserted there saying...'this shows God has mercy on children'..you think it can be discounted? That makes no sense. Most of the stories in the bible do not announce the lessons in them to be learned, why would this one be any different?


What is clear about that passage is that David trusted God with his child. However, to say that the scripture is teaching an age of accountability there, is to say that an implicit meaning of one text overrides the explicit meaning of numerous texts. That's bad interpretation, and can yield a million bad doctrines.



How is a child, a baby able to curse when they cannot speak? How is a baby to turn away from God when they don't know God...when I read these passage and others the content is always for the understanding adult. The few passages about children do not condemn them nor speak to them like this. When Jesus takes the little children to His lap He does not call them liars and thieves...He welcomes them with love and open arms. Why can you not see that?
In infant cannot deny Christ


Do you forget Pslam 51?

The story of Christ receiving the children with open arms has nothing to do with them being "innocent". It has everything to do with child-like faith. That is, faith that relies totally on God the Father just as children rely totally on their parents. We are to love God just as a child loves his/her parents.



This concept of age of accountability is nothing new to the board and has been discussed many times on here. Apparently it is not considered heresy or the board would have rules against it and stop all discussions on it.


Moonglow, you are putting words in my mouth again, I never said the "age of accountability" is a heresy. Properly understood, the age of accountability is a wrong doctrine that is far from heretical. However, what you seem to be saying is that we are not born in sin, as sinful beings, and all of us need Christ, no matter what age we are. THAT is not the age of accountability. I'm sure your pastor would agree with me that ALL need Christ for salvation, even babies. Please ask him/her on Sunday, and please correct me if I'm not understanding you properly.



Lets do this instead ..because the age of accountability can be clouded by emotions....how do you suppose the OT believers were saved when Jesus had not yet come into the picture for them to believe on to be saved?
God bless

OT believers were saved by faith, just as NT believers are. They had faith in what was to come, and we have faith in what already occurred. All believers are saved by faith, which is a gift from God, with no exceptions made for time, place, age, gender, or ethnicity. The main text I would refer to is Hebrews 11.

God bless.

reformedct
Jan 1st 2009, 10:37 PM
i shouldnt say this but i cant believe someone just said meat-eaters will go to hell?




:rolleyes:

mikebr
Jan 1st 2009, 10:50 PM
Sure is a tangled web we weave. :pray: What if, just what if God on a cross was the greatest event in human history? ...............and what if it did exactly what it was designed to do? ........................and what if, just what if He really made a way for us all?:pp ............so that ignorance won't get us to heaven, and innocence won't get us to heaven, and religion or lawkeeping or church attendance or superb, well thought out answers on a message board won't get us to heaven but the Blood of Jesus will get us there.

monergist
Jan 1st 2009, 10:54 PM
Sure is a tangled web we weave. :pray: What if, just what if God on a cross was the greatest event in human history? ...............and what if it did exactly what it was designed to do? ........................and what if, just what if He really made a way for us all?:pp ............so that ignorance won't get us to heaven, and innocence won't get us to heaven, and religion or lawkeeping or church attendance or superb, well thought out answers on a message board won't get us to heaven but the Blood of Jesus will get us there.

AMEN! Couldn't have said it better myself. The blood of Christ is what saves.

appletonbill
Jan 1st 2009, 10:55 PM
i shouldnt say this but i cant believe someone just said meat-eaters will go to hell?




:rolleyes:

I couldn't believe it either. (post #39).:huh:

reformedct
Jan 1st 2009, 10:59 PM
One thing i noticed is that when Jesus recieved those little children, he didnt say, Ok you little sinners its time to repent of your wickedness lol Jesus is the image of the invisible God. I really hate to say this but i dont think there is any Scripture saying that all babies go to heaven, however seeing how Jesus treated those kids and recieved them I have much hope for young children/babies.

The bible says we are wrought in iniquity, so i dont know how everything will work out for babies. I dont think any of us will know until we get to heaven

quiet dove
Jan 1st 2009, 11:06 PM
One thing i noticed is that when Jesus recieved those little children, he didnt say, Ok you little sinners its time to repent of your wickedness lol Jesus is the image of the invisible God. I really hate to say this but i dont think there is any Scripture saying that all babies go to heaven, however seeing how Jesus treated those kids and recieved them I have much hope for young children/babies.

The bible says we are wrought in iniquity, so i dont know how everything will work out for babies. I dont think any of us will know until we get to heaven

The Bible does support there being an age reached where one knows to choose good and evil, or should I say is able to know the difference and capable of making a choice.

Isa 7:16 For before the Child shall know to refuse the evil and choose the good, the land that you dread will be forsaken by both her kings.

When Jesus said to be as little children, I believe the lesson was not that children are or are not sinless, but it is a lesson on trust. When my son was little, he trusted me, never occured to him that I wasn't doing the right thing for him, now granted he did turn into a teenager and all that went out the window:mad:, however, when he was little, like the children Jesus held in his lap, he trusted. If I put him in the car to go somewhere, he trusted. No matter where we went or where we were, he trusted him mommy to take care of him and do what was best. I think the lesson in the story Jesus intends to convey is one of trust, not sinlessness.

There are many people out there who are unable to make a decision, whether it is their age, or their mental capability, and I don't mean all those criminals who hide their crimes then go oopps I'm crazy, didn't know better. I mean those with Down Sydrome (sp?) and so on. Do I think God just throws them away, no. God is just and 9.9 times out of ten, telling either little children of those of limited mental ability about Jesus, the easily and readily believe, because God does not work through our minds, but our spirit and our hearts. God can teach, Spirit to spirit. Of course God can also stand up to the more brainy types and Christianity is not a fable only the limited believe, I am not saying that, I am simply saying that a high IQ is not required. With God, all things are possible....Spirit to spirit

mikebr
Jan 1st 2009, 11:09 PM
One thing i noticed is that when Jesus recieved those little children, he didnt say, Ok you little sinners its time to repent of your wickedness lol Jesus is the image of the invisible God. I really hate to say this but i dont think there is any Scripture saying that all babies go to heaven, however seeing how Jesus treated those kids and recieved them I have much hope for young children/babies.

The bible says we are wrought in iniquity, so i dont know how everything will work out for babies. I dont think any of us will know until we get to heaven

That's the way that Jesus recieved everyone except the religious.

reformedct
Jan 1st 2009, 11:12 PM
The Bible does support there being an age reached where one knows to choose good and evil, or should I say is able to know the difference and capable of making a choice.

Isa 7:16 For before the Child shall know to refuse the evil and choose the good, the land that you dread will be forsaken by both her kings.

When Jesus said to be as little children, I believe the lesson was not that children are or are not sinless, but it is a lesson on trust. When my son was little, he trusted me, never occured to him that I wasn't doing the right thing for him, now granted he did turn into a teenager and all that went out the window:mad:, however, when he was little, like the children Jesus held in his lap, he trusted. If I put him in the car to go somewhere, he trusted. No matter where we went or where we were, he trusted him mommy to take care of him and do what was best. I think the lesson in the story Jesus intends to convey is one of trust, not sinlessness.


yes, i agree children are not sinless, and i do agree that passage was talking about childlike trust most definately. The point i was trying to make is that Jesus, who is God, treated these children very kindly, thats all i was trying to convey. I was thinking maybe He will treat them the same way on Judgement Day but that is just my opinion i am not well knowledged in what the Scripture says about that. I do know there is a Scripture about how man is evil from the womb, soooo i wouldnt be surprised if i were wrong.

appletonbill
Jan 1st 2009, 11:14 PM
Sure is a tangled web we weave. :pray: What if, just what if God on a cross was the greatest event in human history? ...............and what if it did exactly what it was designed to do? ........................and what if, just what if He really made a way for us all?:pp ............so that ignorance won't get us to heaven, and innocence won't get us to heaven, and religion or lawkeeping or church attendance or superb, well thought out answers on a message board won't get us to heaven but the Blood of Jesus will get us there.

What if, all you just said is true? Hallalujah, it is.:bounce:

quiet dove
Jan 1st 2009, 11:17 PM
yes, i agree children are not sinless, and i do agree that passage was talking about childlike trust most definately. The point i was trying to make is that Jesus, who is God, treated these children very kindly, thats all i was trying to convey. I was thinking maybe He will treat them the same way on Judgement Day but that is just my opinion i am not well knowledged in what the Scripture says about that. I do know there is a Scripture about how man is evil from the womb, soooo i wouldnt be surprised if i were wrong.

I think God will treat them kindly. As has been quoted we have support in that David states he will see his child. I have three siblings and one nephew that I fully believe I will see and will walk streets of gold with. I don't doubt that for one second. And my nephew who never spoke a word was truly used by God, there is not doubt in my heart about that, I am the one he helped.

reformedct
Jan 1st 2009, 11:21 PM
I think God will treat them kindly. As has been quoted we have support in that David states he will see his child. I have three siblings and one nephew that I fully believe I will see and will walk streets of gold with. I don't doubt that for one second. And my nephew who never spoke a word was truly used by God, there is not doubt in my heart about that, I am the one he helped.


Also remember in Acts one man was told to believe in the gospel and he would be saved, him AND HIS WHOLE HOUSEHOLD. its funny how that was worded.

quiet dove
Jan 1st 2009, 11:23 PM
Also remember in Acts one man was told to believe in the gospel and he would be saved, him AND HIS WHOLE HOUSEHOLD. its funny how that was worded.
It is, I read something on that, but that won't help us much because I can't remember the details.:B

moonglow
Jan 1st 2009, 11:50 PM
Ok moonglow, here you go. Notice that I'm using a CONSISTENT hermeneutic here. The passages I cited earlier to show humanity's need for Christ did not say "except for babies" as you have said they must, and neither does this scripture say, "except for babies". I neither case, am I making an exception for babies out of thin air.

Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Ephesians 2:8-10
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

Notice that both passages emphasize the fact that salvation is a GIFT. Can God give a gift to a baby? I say yes. Before my oldest was born he had been given many gifts by family and friends. Could he accept them? No. Were they his? Yes. So, the burden of proof is on you to show the age of accountability.



What is clear about that passage is that David trusted God with his child. However, to say that the scripture is teaching an age of accountability there, is to say that an implicit meaning of one text overrides the explicit meaning of numerous texts. That's bad interpretation, and can yield a million bad doctrines.



Do you forget Pslam 51?

The story of Christ receiving the children with open arms has nothing to do with them being "innocent". It has everything to do with child-like faith. That is, faith that relies totally on God the Father just as children rely totally on their parents. We are to love God just as a child loves his/her parents.



Moonglow, you are putting words in my mouth again, I never said the "age of accountability" is a heresy. Properly understood, the age of accountability is a wrong doctrine that is far from heretical. However, what you seem to be saying is that we are not born in sin, as sinful beings, and all of us need Christ, no matter what age we are. THAT is not the age of accountability. I'm sure your pastor would agree with me that ALL need Christ for salvation, even babies. Please ask him/her on Sunday, and please correct me if I'm not understanding you properly.



OT believers were saved by faith, just as NT believers are. They had faith in what was to come, and we have faith in what already occurred. All believers are saved by faith, which is a gift from God, with no exceptions made for time, place, age, gender, or ethnicity. The main text I would refer to is Hebrews 11.

God bless.

Sorry if I misunderstood what you were saying before...

And earlier in this thread (well when you and another member started posting) I clearly agreed and said we are all born with a sin nature. Though an infant has not committed a sin yet....(they will if they live) and I gave the example of how toddlers will hit and bite each other over a toy. They have to be taught to share. They do this because of our sin nature. But at that young of an age, they do not understand what they are doing is wrong...a parent has to teach them. But as a parent we don't disciples as if they already knew it was wrong. Because they don't ...yet. They are a clean slate so to speak and literally know nothing. I know I was amazed over and over with my own son in this regard...it seemed like to me he should know something....but he didn't.

So I never said a baby was born innocent...clearly I agree with all inherited 'death' from Adam. I am simply saying God is merciful. Hell was created for those that willfully reject Him...not those that are incapable of denying or accepting Him which also included the mentally retarded, the brain damaged, etc.

Another passage to throw into the mix:

1 Corinthians 7:13-15 (New King James Version)

13 And a woman who has a husband who does not believe, if he is willing to live with her, let her not divorce him. 14 For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband; otherwise your children would be unclean, but now they are holy. 15 But if the unbeliever departs, let him depart; a brother or a sister is not under bondage in such cases. But God has called us to peace.

I checked a couple of bible commentaries on this...
David Guzik's Commentaries (http://www.studylight.org/com/guz/view.cgi?book=1co&chapter=007)
i. "Until he is old enough to take responsibility upon himself, the child of a believing parent is to be regarded as Christian. The parents 'holiness' extends to the child." (Morris)

ii. This is a beautiful assurance that the children of a Christian parent are saved, at least until they come to an age of personal accountability (which may differ for each child). However, we have no similar assurance for the children of parents who are not Christians. In fact, the sense of the text argues against it. How could Paul claim it as a benefit for a Christian parent to be in the home, if the same benefit automatically applies to the children of non-Christians also? As well, Paul says otherwise your children would be unclean clearly giving the sense that apart from the presence of a Christian parent, the child is not regarded as holy, rather as unclean.

iii. If the children of non-Christian parents are saved, and do go to heaven even some of them it is important to understand that it is not because they are innocent. As sons and daughters of guilty Adam, we are each born guilty as well. If such children do go to heaven, it is not because they are deserving innocents, but because the rich mercy of God has been extended to them as well.

Now on Adam Clark's bible commentary he explains in great detail, how due to so many practicing pagan rituals this reference to 'unclean' was about that. Even the pregnant women performed idolatrous rites involving their pregnancies. This is something we here in the states don't have to deal with like they did then so much. Clark finishes with: "As the parents were converted to the Christian faith, the child comes into the world without these impure and unhallowed rites; and is from its infancy consecrated to the true God." His commentary on this can be found here: http://www.studylight.org/com/acc/view.cgi?book=1co&chapter=007

I find Psalm 51 curious because David isn't speaking about himself as a sinner...but that his mother did something sinnful in conceiving him. Did she have an affair or what? I don't know.

5 Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity,
And in sin my mother conceived me.
This is the definition of iniquity:

1. Gross immorality or injustice; wickedness.
2. A grossly immoral act; a sin.

It sounds like it was very possible that his mother did something like commit adultery and in that act sinned.

It makes no sense to say David, as all of us are conceived in sin when God Himself in Genesis told Adam and Eve to go forth and be fruitful. This would be like saying its sinnful to conceive a child even in marriage. Adultery though was very common back then..something even David ended up doing himself.

I am sorry if I made you angry...I never intended for that to happen.

God bless

moonglow
Jan 1st 2009, 11:56 PM
It is, I read something on that, but that won't help us much because I can't remember the details.:B

This is why you need to use bible gateway (http://www.biblegateway.com/)...type in a few key words and it finds the verses for you....;)


Acts 16


25 But at midnight Paul and Silas were praying and singing hymns to God, and the prisoners were listening to them. 26 Suddenly there was a great earthquake, so that the foundations of the prison were shaken; and immediately all the doors were opened and everyone’s chains were loosed. 27 And the keeper of the prison, awaking from sleep and seeing the prison doors open, supposing the prisoners had fled, drew his sword and was about to kill himself. 28 But Paul called with a loud voice, saying, “Do yourself no harm, for we are all here.”

29 Then he called for a light, ran in, and fell down trembling before Paul and Silas. 30 And he brought them out and said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?”

31 So they said, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household.” 32 Then they spoke the word of the Lord to him and to all who were in his house. 33 And he took them the same hour of the night and washed their stripes. And immediately he and all his family were baptized. 34 Now when he had brought them into his house, he set food before them; and he rejoiced, having believed in God with all his household.

God bless

quiet dove
Jan 2nd 2009, 01:11 AM
This is why you need to use bible gateway (http://www.biblegateway.com/)...type in a few key words and it finds the verses for you....;)

God bless

I would be in trouble with out search ability thats for sure, but I read a commentary on it somewhere in my reading travels, have no idea where, lost that file in the ole noggin somewhere.