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copper25
Dec 15th 2008, 06:02 PM
Isaiah 10:21) The remnant shall return, even the remnant of Jacob, unto the mighty God

Isaiah 10:22) For though thy people Israel be as the sand of the sea, yet a remnant of them shall return: the consumption decreed shall overflow with righteousness

Israel, a big nation filled with many people, when all is said and done, only a remnant will remain. If that be God’s chosen people, how more would this statement all to everyone else? “Take heed, for if he spared not the natural branches”, how much less would he us. Only a few make it and cross the finish line, only a few “endureth unto the end“, So what separates the few from the many or what separates the lukewarm from the hot in the faith? Perseverance in obeying the will of God. And only a remnant will succeed and be successful while the others that fell short face eternal destruction “And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire”. No wonder the Lord said ”Enter ye in at the strait gate” because “broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction” and many will be there. The narrow path is hard, especially if someone can’t let go of their old ways, but it must be done to destroy the body of sin, else how can we ever live pleasing God? When someone can not let go of a sinful act, how can the straight and narrow path be reached? Any broad way action will keep a person off the straight and narrow path required. This is not an optional sacrificial act, to abandon sin, but one that is required of us. The scriptures say what happens to the transgressor, the worker of iniquity, and the evildoer, they perish. When it says we are called to holiness, it means just that, but we must break away from worldliness, namely sin.

Presumptuous sinning at all points by leaning to God needs to be abolished in its entirety from our lives; this is no light task but takes dedication, discipline, and submissiveness to heed God’s word. When it says turn from evil or turn from your wicked ways, what in-between is there? Even a little wickedness is still wickedness. Nevertheless we are called to flee from the captivity of sin and reach for the freedom of righteousness. “Be ye holy; for I am Holy”, to “hate the evil and love the good”, to seek the truth and pursue it; but this requires work, diligence, and not the element of self, which is associated with pride and will hinder the soul. The self element is what stops so many people because it will cause them to stumble spiritually. Only a remnant was not hindered by the element of self, whether it be self-esteem or self-love, which the two greatest commandments have nothing to do with. “Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind”. “Thou shall love thy neighbor as thy self”. Nothing about self-love at all.

Christ laid down the stake and what was the cost when we said “He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it”. Only a remnant is going to make it, out of the entire human race from Adam, all the way up to the destruction of the Gog and Magog people. About a billion confessing Christians in the world today. Does that sound like the remnant considering that there is only about 6 billion people in the world today? No, but it much smaller. Only one leopard was saved when Elisha was around living in Israel and only one widow was visited by Elijah during the three and half year period without rain in Israel. Therefore, “Strive to enter in at the straight gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able to” because “broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction” ,and “narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life and few there be that find it”

Firstfruits
Dec 15th 2008, 07:54 PM
Isaiah 10:21) The remnant shall return, even the remnant of Jacob, unto the mighty God

Isaiah 10:22) For though thy people Israel be as the sand of the sea, yet a remnant of them shall return: the consumption decreed shall overflow with righteousness

Israel, a big nation filled with many people, when all is said and done, only a remnant will remain. If that be God’s chosen people, how more would this statement all to everyone else? “Take heed, for if he spared not the natural branches”, how much less would he us. Only a few make it and cross the finish line, only a few “endureth unto the end“, So what separates the few from the many or what separates the lukewarm from the hot in the faith? Perseverance in obeying the will of God. And only a remnant will succeed and be successful while the others that fell short face eternal destruction “And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire”. No wonder the Lord said ”Enter ye in at the strait gate” because “broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction” and many will be there. The narrow path is hard, especially if someone can’t let go of their old ways, but it must be done to destroy the body of sin, else how can we ever live pleasing God? When someone can not let go of a sinful act, how can the straight and narrow path be reached? Any broad way action will keep a person off the straight and narrow path required. This is not an optional sacrificial act, to abandon sin, but one that is required of us. The scriptures say what happens to the transgressor, the worker of iniquity, and the evildoer, they perish. When it says we are called to holiness, it means just that, but we must break away from worldliness, namely sin.

Presumptuous sinning at all points by leaning to God needs to be abolished in its entirety from our lives; this is no light task but takes dedication, discipline, and submissiveness to heed God’s word. When it says turn from evil or turn from your wicked ways, what in-between is there? Even a little wickedness is still wickedness. Nevertheless we are called to flee from the captivity of sin and reach for the freedom of righteousness. “Be ye holy; for I am Holy”, to “hate the evil and love the good”, to seek the truth and pursue it; but this requires work, diligence, and not the element of self, which is associated with pride and will hinder the soul. The self element is what stops so many people because it will cause them to stumble spiritually. Only a remnant was not hindered by the element of self, whether it be self-esteem or self-love, which the two greatest commandments have nothing to do with. “Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind”. “Thou shall love thy neighbor as thy self”. Nothing about self-love at all.

Christ laid down the stake and what was the cost when we said “He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it”. Only a remnant is going to make it, out of the entire human race from Adam, all the way up to the destruction of the Gog and Magog people. About a billion confessing Christians in the world today. Does that sound like the remnant considering that there is only about 6 billion people in the world today? No, but it much smaller. Only one leopard was saved when Elisha was around living in Israel and only one widow was visited by Elijah during the three and half year period without rain in Israel. Therefore, “Strive to enter in at the straight gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able to” because “broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction” ,and “narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life and few there be that find it”

If only a few or a remnant will return to God, what will happen to those that do not return?

Thanks,

Firstfruits

kenrank
Dec 15th 2008, 11:12 PM
If only a few or a remnant will return to God, what will happen to those that do not return?

Thanks,

Firstfruits

I actually have a different view worth consideration. If I go to a fabric store and need a yard of material off a hundred yard roll....and all they have is an un-opened roll. So they cut away the bindings and cut out my yard...there are 99 out of the 100 left. What is left, regardless of the size, is called the remnant. And that is the true definition of the word...it is simpy the left over. In modern terms we see it as a small amount, but while that CAN be the case, it isn't always the case.

Remember, the seed of Abraham, which includes both the House of Judah and the House of Israel...is too many to be counted.

Peace.,
Ken

Samsheep2
Dec 16th 2008, 12:35 AM
I actually have a different view worth consideration. If I go to a fabric store and need a yard of material off a hundred yard roll....and all they have is an un-opened roll. So they cut away the bindings and cut out my yard...there are 99 out of the 100 left. What is left, regardless of the size, is called the remnant. And that is the true definition of the word...it is simpy the left over. In modern terms we see it as a small amount, but while that CAN be the case, it isn't always the case. Ken, that may sound good to you but it is not scriptural as far as the usage of the word <kataleimma> goes. According to the meaning the 99 yards are like what Paul speaks of:

Romans 9:27 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:
Romans 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
Revelation 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. I assure you in the context these and the one yard you cut off/out are the remnant of.


Remember, the seed of Abraham, which includes both the House of Judah and the House of Israel...is too many to be counted. Ah Ken, but Jesus still sums it all up by saying that 'few' there be that find it.

Thanks, Sam

keck553
Dec 16th 2008, 12:50 AM
Who the heck knows what 'few' means to God? How many souls has He created? Maybe 3 billion would seem a remnant to Him. Who knows? Let's just be greatful we are included!

Noach and his family are good examples of remnants.

Although in this messianic age, I suppose this could include all the millions of souls who have passed on in the past several thousand years. If so, even a large number those saved in a redeemed Israel would be a comparative remnant.

This is something I've not spent a lot of time studying, so I'm speculating here with no Scripture to back me up.

RogerW
Dec 16th 2008, 01:17 AM
Isaiah 10:21) The remnant shall return, even the remnant of Jacob, unto the mighty God

Isaiah 10:22) For though thy people Israel be as the sand of the sea, yet a remnant of them shall return: the consumption decreed shall overflow with righteousness

Israel, a big nation filled with many people, when all is said and done, only a remnant will remain. If that be God’s chosen people, how more would this statement all to everyone else?

Christ laid down the stake and what was the cost when we said “He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it”. Only a remnant is going to make it, out of the entire human race from Adam, all the way up to the destruction of the Gog and Magog people. About a billion confessing Christians in the world today. Does that sound like the remnant considering that there is only about 6 billion people in the world today? No, but it much smaller. Only one leopard was saved when Elisha was around living in Israel and only one widow was visited by Elijah during the three and half year period without rain in Israel. Therefore, “Strive to enter in at the straight gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able to” because “broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction” ,and “narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life and few there be that find it”

What about the great multitude that no man can number of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues?

Re 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
Re 7:10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.

Re 7:13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
Re 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

The remnant refers to the natural Jew. Though the nation be as the sand of the sea, only a remnant of them are saved. After Christ came, and defeated sin and death through the cross, the wall of separation between Jew and Gentile was broken down. Now there is no longer Jew and Gentile, but one people from every nation of the world belonging to God. Now there are only Christians without distinction of color, creed, race or sex.

Who is Christ speaking to when He says, "Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it"? In context we find Christ is speaking to the Jews, and the warning is specifically to them. They were astonished at His doctrine, for He did not teach as one of the scribes.

Lu 13:23 Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them,
Lu 13:24 Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.

Joh 7:34 Ye shall seek me, and shall not find me: and where I am, thither ye cannot come.
Joh 7:35 Then said the Jews among themselves, Whither will he go, that we shall not find him? will he go unto the dispersed among the Gentiles, and teach the Gentiles?
Joh 7:36 What manner of saying is this that he said, Ye shall seek me, and shall not find me: and where I am, thither ye cannot come?

Joh 8:21 Then said Jesus again unto them, I go my way, and ye shall seek me, and shall die in your sins: whither I go, ye cannot come.
Joh 8:22 Then said the Jews, Will he kill himself? because he saith, Whither I go, ye cannot come.

Ro 9:31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
Ro 9:32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
Ro 9:33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

Mt 21:42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?
Mt 21:43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
Mt 21:44 And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.
Mt 21:45 And when the chief priests and Pharisees had heard his parables, they perceived that he spake of them.

Because the nation remained in hardness of heart, refusing to believe, only a small remnant of them are saved. But after Pentecost, after Christ's victory over death and sin many are called into the Kingdom through the preaching of the gospel of Jesus Christ. Not every person will be saved, but all His elect people will be saved. Therefore the number of people throughout human history who will be saved are the remnant from His chosen nation (the Jews), and a great multitude from all the nations of the world. Together these make up the complete Kingdom of God and it will be a GREAT KINGDOM indeed!

Many Blessings,
RW

kenrank
Dec 16th 2008, 05:06 AM
Ken, that may sound good to you but it is not scriptural as far as the usage of the word <kataleimma> goes. According to the meaning the 99 yards are like what Paul speaks of:

Romans 9:27 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:
Romans 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
Revelation 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. I assure you in the context these and the one yard you cut off/out are the remnant of.

Ah Ken, but Jesus still sums it all up by saying that 'few' there be that find it.

Thanks, Sam

Sam, in Hebrew, the word for remnant is shehawr, and means "remainder." In Greek, the word is, as you stated, kataleimma, which means remainder, and also a few. In the 1828 Noah Webster dictionary, remnant means residue, that which is left behind.

I think the problem we have is how we view the 144,000 in Revelation. With that viewpoint on them, we apply the word remnant to mean a few. Those in Revelation are not saved Israel, all scripture says it that they are "sealed servants." What exactly does that mean is open to interpretation. The point is, both Judah and Israel (I believe we are a part of Israel) are the seed of Abraham, and the amount of people who are is a number which no man can count. How many billions are dead and gone? I have heard once that half the people who have ever lived are alive today. So what are talking about, 14 or 15 BILLION people. Even if only a third are ultimately saved, you are talking about somewhere around 5 billion people. A remnant, sure...but a heck of a big number.

Peace.
Ken

angel_fire
Dec 16th 2008, 05:15 AM
Question should be, "How many souls can comfortably fit on the tip of a needle"

When God is dealing, he normally deals big. Big to us is tiny to Him. So, tiny to Him is too big for us to understand.

kenrank
Dec 16th 2008, 05:26 AM
Question should be, "How many souls can comfortably fit on the tip of a needle"

When God is dealing, he normally deals big. Big to us is tiny to Him. So, tiny to Him is too big for us to understand.

Good call! I think he is bigger than we imagine...I think his grace extends beyond what we imagine.

Blessings.
ken

angel_fire
Dec 16th 2008, 06:57 AM
Good call! I think he is bigger than we imagine...I think his grace extends beyond what we imagine.

Blessings.
ken Thank You. The God I know, usually makes big decisions, yet is in interested in the smallest detail.
Only a "few" may be a Trillion to God. When I look out to space, or see the size of the Ocean, I realize that God is not small about things.

Mysteryman
Dec 16th 2008, 10:14 AM
Many are called and few are chosen . The chosen are the predestined from before the foundation of the world. No one can of their own free will choose of themselves to be a part of the chosen.

Like Jesus told the disciples, I have chosen you, you have not chosen me. Yet , there were multitudes that followed Jesus, and there are two records of Jesus feeding the multitudes. These multitudes were an example of the called. They heard his voice and followed after. Yet, they were not chosen. The disciples were chosen.

Samsheep2
Dec 16th 2008, 12:10 PM
Who the heck knows what 'few' means to God? How many souls has He created? Maybe 3 billion would seem a remnant to Him. Who knows? Let's just be greatful we are included! Hello keck, and not for sure if this is a response to my remarks or not but I know what the word 'few' means and I know what the word 'many' means and when the LORD uses either of these in a passage we shouldn't have any problem understanding what he means. One of the reasons the word of God was given to us was so we could 'know' Him.


Noach and his family are good examples of remnants. And might I say a very good example in context as to what the word 'few' means:
1 Peter 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.


Although in this messianic age, I suppose this could include all the millions of souls who have passed on in the past several thousand years. If so, even a large number those saved in a redeemed Israel would be a comparative remnant. This is something I've not spent a lot of time studying, so I'm speculating here with no Scripture to back me up.
Keck, after 40 years of studying the precious word of God which by the way has the answers I can honestly say without reservation, hesitation or apology that 'few' there be is all that God says will find it (life everlasting) and 'many' will end up on the broad road to destruction to the place known as the lake of fire.

Thanks, Sam

Samsheep2
Dec 16th 2008, 12:28 PM
Sam,...I think the problem we have is how we view the 144,000 in Revelation. With that viewpoint on them, we apply the word remnant to mean a few. Those in Revelation are not saved Israel, all scripture says it that they are "sealed servants." What exactly does that mean is open to interpretation. Hi Ken, again we disagree and it may be that you are looking at just one passage rather than comparing scripture with scripture:
Revelation 14:3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
Revelation 14:1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.
Revelation 7:4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.


The point is, both Judah and Israel (I believe we are a part of Israel) are the seed of Abraham, and the amount of people who are is a number which no man can count. How many billions are dead and gone? I have heard once that half the people who have ever lived are alive today. So what are talking about, 14 or 15 BILLION people. Even if only a third are ultimately saved, you are talking about somewhere around 5 billion people. A remnant, sure...but a heck of a big number. Ken, I understand your point but since the scriptures are plain and by the way - I am a saved Gentile so we differ there also? Are you aware that the story of the flood has been used in typeology as far back as we need to go in church history as a type of the rapture of the believers - and there were only 8 that got on the ark???
This scripture still emphasies the word remnant:
Acts 15:14-19 Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name. And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written, After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up: That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things. Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world. Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God:

Thanks, Sam

Samsheep2
Dec 16th 2008, 12:36 PM
Many are called and few are chosen . The chosen are the predestined from before the foundation of the world. No one can of their own free will choose of themselves to be a part of the chosen.

Like Jesus told the disciples, I have chosen you, you have not chosen me. Yet , there were multitudes that followed Jesus, and there are two records of Jesus feeding the multitudes. These multitudes were an example of the called. They heard his voice and followed after. Yet, they were not chosen. The disciples were chosen.

Absolutely and well said - by the way I wonder why some never seem to understand that out of all these there were only 119 in the upper room after three years of preaching the gospel by the greatest preacher ever to walk on earth.
I've been privileged to go to Israel a number of times from 1994 and planing the Lord willing to return in June of 09?
My point is I've actually been in the upper room, even preached one time while there. Oh yes!!! it could have accommodated a few more than the 119 but that was all at the time since Judas had other plans.

Thanks, Sam

Partaker of Christ
Dec 16th 2008, 01:11 PM
Many are called and few are chosen . The chosen are the predestined from before the foundation of the world. No one can of their own free will choose of themselves to be a part of the chosen.

Like Jesus told the disciples, I have chosen you, you have not chosen me. Yet , there were multitudes that followed Jesus, and there are two records of Jesus feeding the multitudes. These multitudes were an example of the called. They heard his voice and followed after. Yet, they were not chosen. The disciples were chosen.

We have to ask, who was this "For many are called, but few are chosen" aimed at?
Was Jesus speaking globally or specifically?

Mat 21:43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
Mat 21:44 And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.
Mat 21:45 And when the chief priests and Pharisees had heard his parables, they perceived that he spake of them.
Mat 21:46 But when they sought to lay hands on him, they feared the multitude, because they took him for a prophet.

** Mat 22:1 And Jesus answered and spake unto them again by parables, and said,
(who was He speaking to, and about: the chief priests and Pharisees)

Mat 22:2 The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son,
Mat 22:3 And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come.
Mat 22:4 Again, he sent forth other servants, saying, Tell them which are bidden, Behold, I have prepared my dinner: my oxen and my fatlings are killed, and all things are ready: come unto the marriage.
Mat 22:5 But they made light of it, and went their ways, one to his farm, another to his merchandise:
Mat 22:6 And the remnant took his servants, and entreated them spitefully, and slew them.

(Is "the remnat" a few, or the remainder?)

Mat 22:7 But when the king heard thereof, he was wroth: and he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city.
Mat 22:8 Then saith he to his servants, The wedding is ready, but they which were bidden were not worthy.
Mat 22:9 Go ye therefore into the highways, and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage.
Mat 22:10 So those servants went out into the highways, and gathered together all as many as they found, both bad and good: and the wedding was furnished with guests.
Mat 22:11 And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment:
Mat 22:12 And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless.
Mat 22:13 Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Mat 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen.

kenrank
Dec 16th 2008, 03:07 PM
Hi Ken, again we disagree and it may be that you are looking at just one passage rather than comparing scripture with scripture:
Revelation 14:3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
Revelation 14:1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.
Revelation 7:4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

I am well familiar with the verses. NOTHING in what you shared changes what I said. These are of the 12 tribes, they are sealed servants...they have the name YHWH on their forehead, and they were redeemed. (Which means they were "bought" back) Does this represent >>ALL<< of saved Israel? No, it is onl opinion to believe this...which is fine if that's what you believe. But, you can't pass it off as biblical fact....the scriptures themselves are silent on the matter.


Ken, I understand your point but since the scriptures are plain and by the way - I am a saved Gentile so we differ there also? Are you aware that the story of the flood has been used in typeology as far back as we need to go in church history as a type of the rapture of the believers - and there were only 8 that got on the ark???
This scripture still emphasies the word remnant:
Acts 15:14-19 Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name. And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written, After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up: That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things. Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world. Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God:

Thanks, Sam

The context from all of scripture is that, while you were ONCE a gentile, you are no longer. Paul tells us in Eph. 2 that in times past you WERE gentiles in the flesh AND aliens and strangers of the Commonwealth of Irael but NOW through faith are fellow citizens with the household of God. You can call yourself a Gentile if you want, but I think you are cutting yourself short!

1/3 is used in so many places, I >>THINK<< maybe the "remnant" if you want to use that word might be that much. Regardless, the number is as the sand of the sea...a number the no man can count. So we can play word games or we can accept that the number of Abraham's seed is so great it can't be counted.

Ken

Teke
Dec 16th 2008, 03:07 PM
Ken, that may sound good to you but it is not scriptural as far as the usage of the word <kataleimma> goes. According to the meaning the 99 yards are like what Paul speaks of:

Usage in context is important. Not all the Greek words in the following verses are the word "kataleimma".


Romans 9:27 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:

In this verse "remnant" is the Greek "kataleimma".



Romans 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

In this verse "remnant" is the Greek "leimma".

"Present time also" or "come to be" is in the perfect tense, meaning that at some point in time in the past this 'remnant' came into existence and remains. IMHO this is the promise of God that there will always be those who remain faithful and unchanging. This is also a promise to those who seek the truth, that they will find it, because God causes it to remain in the faithful He has chosen.

It is also relative of the Greek understanding of "ekloge" translated "elect" in English. "Ekloge" meaning to pick out from a larger number.

Israel is the example used, which indicates that out of the whole of God's people, not all are faithful. But God promises there will be some who are and will keep His truth undefiled.

For the church this means that although you may see the whole of the church as the 'faithful', when it comes down to the rubber meeting the road, they are not all faithful. I wouldn't apply this to individuals, but to schools of thought on the matter of truth. As individuals tend to wind up in one or another school of thought. And this is not to say they will remain there. Since if they are seeking the whole truth of God, He has promised it will be there for them, remaining unchanged.

Elijah is an example from the OT, of one who believed there were no more faithful (faithful in the sense that they didn't adhere to sound teaching) in his time. Yet God revealed to him that there was and His promise stands.

This is what I call the 'hidden truth' or the 'hidden church'. It is not in plain sight for the enemy to attack, and it remains faithful preserving God's true teachings. It is as the 'strength" of the mother who gives birth. ie. the church is the mother (OT example, 2 Kings 19:4 when Hezekiah finds this out, yet Isaiah promises deliverance)

This exemplifies God's mercy and charity toward mankind. It is also seen in the directives (law, Torah, canon etc ) pertaining to agriculture (a typology), where every seven years the field was to be left to fallow for new growth. As at harvest there was a remnant left for the poor.



Revelation 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. I assure you in the context these and the one yard you cut off/out are the remnant of.

This "remnant" is the Greek word "toipos", in reference to 'the remaining one'. It's one of the Greek synonymous words for "other" or "another".
In this instance the reference is now the church, as that is where God has the remnant.


Ah Ken, but Jesus still sums it all up by saying that 'few' there be that find it.

Thanks, Sam

Indeed, of the truth there are few. :)

In Peace,
Eve

keck553
Dec 16th 2008, 04:59 PM
Hello keck, and not for sure if this is a response to my remarks or not but I know what the word 'few' means and I know what the word 'many' means and when the LORD uses either of these in a passage we shouldn't have any problem understanding what he means. One of the reasons the word of God was given to us was so we could 'know' Him.

And might I say a very good example in context as to what the word 'few' means:
1 Peter 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.


Keck, after 40 years of studying the precious word of God which by the way has the answers I can honestly say without reservation, hesitation or apology that 'few' there be is all that God says will find it (life everlasting) and 'many' will end up on the broad road to destruction to the place known as the lake of fire.

Thanks, Sam

That's fine, and I won't argue your point. I would just like to say that we humans don't take the word "few" and start excluding others based on our own self righteousness. I think this is one of the things that got Calvin going, and also, cults tend to do this, e.g. - the Sacred Name Group states that only the ones who know the correct utterance of YHVH can enter. A lot of Penticostals say I am not saved because I don't babble in prayer. I'm just saying it's important to beware of this trap.