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Partaker of Christ
Dec 15th 2008, 11:41 PM
Jesus said, "Abide in me" John 15

Many seem to take this "Abide in me" to mean we have to 'continue', 'remain', 'endure to the end'. My understanding is to simply be in Christ. He is our dwelling place.
I take it to mean that if we truly are in Christ, we will bare fruit and we will remain, we will continue, we will endure to the end.

To Abide in Christ, is to dwell in the secret place of the Most High [Psalm 19]

Psa 91:1 He that dwelleth in the secret place of the most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty.

To be in Christ, to Abide in Christ, to dwell in the secret place of the Most High, means we SHALL abide, remain, continue, endure, under the shadow of the Almighty.

Psa 91:2 I will say of the LORD, He is my refuge and my fortress: my God; in him will I trust.
Psa 91:3 Surely he shall deliver thee from the snare of the fowler, and from the noisome pestilence.
Psa 91:4 He shall cover thee with his feathers, and under his wings shalt thou trust: his truth shall be thy shield and buckler.
Psa 91:5 Thou shalt not be afraid for the terror by night; nor for the arrow that flieth by day;
Psa 91:6 Nor for the pestilence that walketh in darkness; nor for the destruction that wasteth at noonday.
Psa 91:7 A thousand shall fall at thy side, and ten thousand at thy right hand; but it shall not come nigh thee.
Psa 91:8 Only with thine eyes shalt thou behold and see the reward of the wicked.
Psa 91:9 Because thou hast made the LORD, which is my refuge, even the most High, thy habitation;

Psa 91:10 There shall no evil befall thee, neither shall any plague come nigh thy dwelling.
Psa 91:11 For he shall give his angels charge over thee, to keep thee in all thy ways.
Psa 91:12 They shall bear thee up in their hands, lest thou dash thy foot against a stone.
Psa 91:13 Thou shalt tread upon the lion and adder: the young lion and the dragon shalt thou trample under feet.
Psa 91:14 Because he hath set his love upon me, therefore will I deliver him: I will set him on high, because he hath known my name.
Psa 91:15 He shall call upon me, and I will answer him: I will be with him in trouble; I will deliver him, and honour him.
Psa 91:16 With long life will I satisfy him, and shew him my salvation.

The question I ask is:
If this Abide in Me, means to remain, continue, endure to the end, then when is it that we are counted worthy to bare fruit? When have we been recond to have continued, remained or endured long enough, to ask what we will, and it shall be done?

John 15:7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.

Do we have to wait until we have finished the race, before we can show these results?

God's yes is Yes, and His no is No, not may be.

Butch5
Dec 16th 2008, 04:16 AM
Jesus said, "Abide in me" John 15

Many seem to take this "Abide in me" to mean we have to 'continue', 'remain', 'endure to the end'. My understanding is to simply be in Christ. He is our dwelling place.
I take it to mean that if we truly are in Christ, we will bare fruit and we will remain, we will continue, we will endure to the end.

To Abide in Christ, is to dwell in the secret place of the Most High [Psalm 19]

Psa 91:1 He that dwelleth in the secret place of the most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty.

To be in Christ, to Abide in Christ, to dwell in the secret place of the Most High, means we SHALL abide, remain, continue, endure, under the shadow of the Almighty.

Psa 91:2 I will say of the LORD, He is my refuge and my fortress: my God; in him will I trust.
Psa 91:3 Surely he shall deliver thee from the snare of the fowler, and from the noisome pestilence.
Psa 91:4 He shall cover thee with his feathers, and under his wings shalt thou trust: his truth shall be thy shield and buckler.
Psa 91:5 Thou shalt not be afraid for the terror by night; nor for the arrow that flieth by day;
Psa 91:6 Nor for the pestilence that walketh in darkness; nor for the destruction that wasteth at noonday.
Psa 91:7 A thousand shall fall at thy side, and ten thousand at thy right hand; but it shall not come nigh thee.
Psa 91:8 Only with thine eyes shalt thou behold and see the reward of the wicked.
Psa 91:9 Because thou hast made the LORD, which is my refuge, even the most High, thy habitation;

Psa 91:10 There shall no evil befall thee, neither shall any plague come nigh thy dwelling.
Psa 91:11 For he shall give his angels charge over thee, to keep thee in all thy ways.
Psa 91:12 They shall bear thee up in their hands, lest thou dash thy foot against a stone.
Psa 91:13 Thou shalt tread upon the lion and adder: the young lion and the dragon shalt thou trample under feet.
Psa 91:14 Because he hath set his love upon me, therefore will I deliver him: I will set him on high, because he hath known my name.
Psa 91:15 He shall call upon me, and I will answer him: I will be with him in trouble; I will deliver him, and honour him.
Psa 91:16 With long life will I satisfy him, and shew him my salvation.

The question I ask is:
If this Abide in Me, means to remain, continue, endure to the end, then when is it that we are counted worthy to bare fruit? When have we been recond to have continued, remained or endured long enough, to ask what we will, and it shall be done?

John 15:7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.

Do we have to wait until we have finished the race, before we can show these results?

God's yes is Yes, and His no is No, not may be.

As long as we remain in Christ, we are in relationship with Him. Paul says there is no condemnation for those who are "in Christ". If we are "in Christ" we have all of the benefits Christ has promised. However, Jesus also said,

John 15:6-8 ( KJV ) 6If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. 7If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you. 8Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.

You gave the definition of abide, it means to remain. Jesus is clearly saying that a person who is in Him, can turn from Him and no longer abide.

Partaker of Christ
Dec 16th 2008, 11:45 AM
As long as we remain in Christ, we are in relationship with Him. Paul says there is no condemnation for those who are "in Christ". If we are "in Christ" we have all of the benefits Christ has promised. However, Jesus also said,

John 15:6-8 ( KJV ) 6If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. 7If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you. 8Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.

You gave the definition of abide, it means to remain. Jesus is clearly saying that a person who is in Him, can turn from Him and no longer abide.

Sorry Butch, but it does not say that a person can turn away and no longer abide.

ProjectPeter
Dec 16th 2008, 11:17 PM
Sorry Butch, but it does not say that a person can turn away and no longer abide.
How can one "remain" or "abide" in something that they have never had to begin with? It would be like me living in Tennessee and yet you are telling me to remain in New York. I can't abide there unless I am there to begin with. Right?

Partaker of Christ
Dec 17th 2008, 01:54 AM
How can one "remain" or "abide" in something that they have never had to begin with? It would be like me living in Tennessee and yet you are telling me to remain in New York. I can't abide there unless I am there to begin with. Right?

Hi Ken!

John 15:6 "If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned.

I see it as 'If anyone is not in Christ "The True Vine"' he is thrown away as a branch and dries up.

Psa 91:1 He who dwells in the shelter of the Most High Will abide in the shadow of the Almighty.


Israel was the vine out of Egypt

Psa 80:8 Thou hast brought a vine out of Egypt: thou hast cast out the heathen, and planted it.

Psa 80:14 Return, we beseech thee, O God of hosts: look down from heaven, and behold, and visit this vine;
Psa 80:15 And the vineyard which thy right hand hath planted, and the branch that thou madest strong for thyself.

Jer 2:21 Yet I had planted thee a noble vine, wholly a right seed: how then art thou turned into the degenerate plant of a strange vine unto me?

Jesus now says that He is the True Vine:

John 15:1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.

Any man that is not in me the True Vine, is cast forth as a branch and withers.

Some of the natural branches were broken off, because of unbelief in the True Vine.

ProjectPeter
Dec 17th 2008, 02:00 AM
Hi Ken!

John 15:6 "If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned.

I see it as 'If anyone is not in Christ "The True Vine"' he is thrown away as a branch and dries up.

Psa 91:1 He who dwells in the shelter of the Most High Will abide in the shadow of the Almighty.


Israel was the vine out of Egypt

Psa 80:8 Thou hast brought a vine out of Egypt: thou hast cast out the heathen, and planted it.

Psa 80:14 Return, we beseech thee, O God of hosts: look down from heaven, and behold, and visit this vine;
Psa 80:15 And the vineyard which thy right hand hath planted, and the branch that thou madest strong for thyself.

Jer 2:21 Yet I had planted thee a noble vine, wholly a right seed: how then art thou turned into the degenerate plant of a strange vine unto me?

Jesus now says that He is the True Vine:

John 15:1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.

Any man that is not in me the True Vine, is cast forth as a branch and withers.

Some of the natural branches were broken off, because of unbelief in the True Vine.
Works for me. Paul uses the same analogy too...

Romans 11:17 *But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree,
18 *do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you.
19 *You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in."
20 *Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;
21 *for if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will He spare you.
22 *Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God's kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.

Not being a natural branch but a wild olive being grafted into that true vine... If I don't continue (abide) in Him then I too (the wild olive one) can be cut off.

Partaker of Christ
Dec 17th 2008, 02:30 AM
Works for me. Paul uses the same analogy too...

Romans 11:17 *But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree,
18 *do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you.
19 *You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in."
20 *Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;
21 *for if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will He spare you.
22 *Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God's kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.

Not being a natural branch but a wild olive being grafted into that true vine... If I don't continue (abide) in Him then I too (the wild olive one) can be cut off.

Hi again Ken.

the "if you continue" is an evidence of having truly believed with the heart.

Jesus said: the good ground 'WILL' produce much fruit.

ProjectPeter
Dec 17th 2008, 02:37 AM
Hi again Ken.

the "if you continue" is an evidence of having truly believed with the heart.

Jesus said: the good ground 'WILL' produce much fruit.
Now you are jumping from parable to parable and each parable having a context different than the other. That's a good way to get weird doctrine. ;)

The parable that Paul uses leaves no such wiggle room. There are no untrue wild olive branches grafted into the tree. If you continue is just what it says... if you continue. Just as I said before on abide... one cannot continue something that they never started... right?

Butch5
Dec 17th 2008, 04:19 AM
Sorry Butch, but it does not say that a person can turn away and no longer abide.

What does if a man remains not in me, mean?

Partaker of Christ
Dec 17th 2008, 03:11 PM
What does if a man remains not in me, mean?

most translations have 'abide' and I see that as 'live in' or 'dwell in' as being in Christ.

If your choice of translation of [meno] 'remain' or 'continue' was correct, then the more intensive word would be [epimeno] or [katameno] (constant residence)

RogerW
Dec 17th 2008, 07:23 PM
How can one "remain" or "abide" in something that they have never had to begin with? It would be like me living in Tennessee and yet you are telling me to remain in New York. I can't abide there unless I am there to begin with. Right?

Hi Ken,

Wouldn't you agree that it is possible for one to think they are abiding in the Lord, but are not? Certainly if they are doing good works in the name of the Lord, they think they are abiding in Him? What if you just think you live in Tn, but actually you live in NY? lol...just kidding

Mt 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mt 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mt 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

So, they think they are abiding in Christ...but what is lacking? Christ says those who call Him Lord AND "heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them".

Mt 7:24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:

What were they hearing? Weren't they "hearing" and "doing" what they heard? How come they called Him Lord, and heard and did good deeds in His name, yet He says He does not know them, and calls them workers of iniquity? Who then can abide in Him unto eternal life? What is lacking?

Many Blessings,
RW

RogerW
Dec 17th 2008, 07:33 PM
Works for me. Paul uses the same analogy too...

Romans 11:17 *But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree,
18 *do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you.
19 *You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in."
20 *Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;
21 *for if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will He spare you.
22 *Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God's kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.

Not being a natural branch but a wild olive being grafted into that true vine... If I don't continue (abide) in Him then I too (the wild olive one) can be cut off.

Ken, some branches were broken off, but not the branches that He foreknew (vs 2, 4), He reserved seven thousand to Himself. So there is a remnant according to the election of grace (vs 5). The rest were cut off from the tree they were really in because of unbelief. So it seems one can be in the tree, remain in unbelief and be cut off. This is what Paul is warning us about. Remember the Root (Christ) supports us and we don't support the Root (Christ). Therefore continue in faith, believing He is able to do what He has promised, don't become arrogant and self-righteous as they had done, but continue in His kindness.

Many Blessings,
RW

ProjectPeter
Dec 17th 2008, 07:37 PM
Hi Ken,

Wouldn't you agree that it is possible for one to think they are abiding in the Lord, but are not? Certainly if they are doing good works in the name of the Lord, they think they are abiding in Him? What if you just think you live in Tn, but actually you live in NY? lol...just kidding

Mt 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mt 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mt 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

So, they think they are abiding in Christ...but what is lacking? Christ says those who call Him Lord AND "heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them".

Mt 7:24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:

What were they hearing? Weren't they "hearing" and "doing" what they heard? How come they called Him Lord, and heard and did good deeds in His name, yet He says He does not know them, and calls them workers of iniquity? Who then can abide in Him unto eternal life? What is lacking?

Many Blessings,
RWBut then you didn't answer the question Roger... neither did Partaker. Is it possible to continue in or abide somewhere from where you've never been? I can't abide in anything unless I've first been in that anything to abide in it. Right?

ProjectPeter
Dec 17th 2008, 07:42 PM
Ken, some branches were broken off, but not the branches that He foreknew (vs 2, 4), He reserved seven thousand to Himself. So there is a remnant according to the election of grace (vs 5). The rest were cut off from the tree they were really in because of unbelief. So it seems one can be in the tree, remain in unbelief and be cut off. This is what Paul is warning us about. Remember the Root (Christ) supports us and we don't support the Root (Christ). Therefore continue in faith, believing He is able to do what He has promised, don't become arrogant and self-righteous as they had done, but continue in His kindness.

Many Blessings,
RWSo then... all Gentiles (wild olives) were grafted into the vine simply because they were Gentile and thus allowed to partake of the rich root of that tree without believing from the start? Not sure you can make such a case as that Scripturally Roger.

Or...

reformedct
Dec 17th 2008, 08:03 PM
i think this argument will go in till christ returns haha

first off let me say that none of us are enemies.

we all agree here: you have been saved by grace thru faith...not of yourselves...for good works that you should walk in them

now we differ on what that actually looks like, but anyone who truly repents of sin and places faith in Christ and still has that faith when they die or when the lord comes will be saved


obviously my view is reformed.
but we both agree that it is our responsibility to perserve until the end

I just believe that I will indeed perservere BECAUSE God will perservere with me by giving me just what i need to perservere


the "other team" believes God does not perservere with them, it is ultimately their responsibility alone

my team has no stress and rests peacfully in the hands of God

the other team is way stressed and constantly in fear hahah jk (i had to do it:D)


someone was accused of jumping parables, but many of the parables such as wheat/tares ,sheep/goats have the same concepts. Seperation and distinction from the real and the fake.

That being said, when it refers to being cut off from the vine

I believe it is similar to the one who hears the word and immediatly recieves it with joy, but they have no root

perhaps the branches are those who have gladly hopped into the christian community of Christ, but they have no foundation, so they fall away

Obviously Jesus is the Vine. Obviously the branches are in the vine or connected to the vine, they are in Christ.

the question is, what does it mean here by "being in the vine". Does it mean in the body of Christ? does it mean the legit body or the christian community in the body of Christ?

I am open to hear someone answer this one from the point of losing salvation also from the reformed view. I have my interpretation but lets hear it

Partaker of Christ
Dec 17th 2008, 08:15 PM
But then you didn't answer the question Roger... neither did Partaker. Is it possible to continue in or abide somewhere from where you've never been? I can't abide in anything unless I've first been in that anything to abide in it. Right?

But Jesus said if anyone does not abide in Him. It is a place of belonging 'in Christ'

I am from England and I am english. If I come to the USA, does that make me an American?
If I stay their for the rest of my days, do I become an American?
When I die, will I die a Yank or a Brit?
Will I stop being a Brit just because I am living in America?

To belong in the True Vine, you must be born again.

ProjectPeter
Dec 17th 2008, 08:24 PM
That being said, when it refers to being cut off from the vine

I believe it is similar to the one who hears the word and immediatly recieves it with joy, but they have no root

perhaps the branches are those who have gladly hopped into the christian community of Christ, but they have no foundation, so they fall away

Obviously Jesus is the Vine. Obviously the branches are in the vine or connected to the vine, they are in Christ.

the question is, what does it mean here by "being in the vine". Does it mean in the body of Christ? does it mean the legit body or the christian community in the body of Christ?

I am open to hear someone answer this one from the point of losing salvation also from the reformed view. I have my interpretation but lets hear itSo... fake branches are in the "true" vine? In either of those parables... John or Romans... I think you'll have a very difficult time making that work. ;)

ProjectPeter
Dec 17th 2008, 08:25 PM
But Jesus said if anyone does not abide in Him. It is a place of belonging 'in Christ'

I am from England and I am english. If I come to the USA, does that make me an American?
If I stay their for the rest of my days, do I become an American?
When I die, will I die a Yank or a Brit?
Will I stop being a Brit just because I am living in America?

To belong in the True Vine, you must be born again.Once again... If you can be cut off from the true vine... you have to be in the true vine to begin with... right?

Yukerboy
Dec 17th 2008, 10:31 PM
John 15:7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.

This is difficult to explain so bear with me.

Christ says if you abide in me and my words abide in you...

I felt this always meant that it is possible to abide in Christ, yet not have Christ (His words) abide in you.

This means believing for a little while (the parable of the seeds) and then falling away. They never had the seal of the Holy Spirit. They were never Spirit led.

Falling away is through sin or by sin, but we know that if Christ abides in us, we cannot sin.

Yuke