PDA

View Full Version : Contradicting Itself



Master Jake
Dec 16th 2008, 06:08 PM
Bible Laws:
1.) Do not kill
2.) Must follow laws

but what if there was a law that you must kill, contradicting itself? i think so!

Tell me now, would someone go to hell either way since if they kill they're breaking bible but if they don't kill their still breaking bible by not following the law that made them do so.

IamBill
Dec 16th 2008, 06:14 PM
Bible Laws:
1.) Do not kill
2.) Must follow laws

but what if there was a law that you must kill, contradicting itself? i think so!

Tell me now, would someone go to hell either way since if they kill they're breaking bible but if they don't kill their still breaking bible by not following the law that made them do so.

:hmm: scratch :hmm: scratch


Where ever are you being told to Kill in the Bible ?

Master Jake
Dec 16th 2008, 06:15 PM
Nowhere that has nothing to do with it lol, I said what if a STATE / COUNTRY LAW forced you to kill. Well my friend, then you have to make a choice, break the law and go to hell or kill and go to hell. That was my question ;]

Slug1
Dec 16th 2008, 06:19 PM
Bible Laws:
1.) Do not kill
2.) Must follow laws

but what if there was a law that you must kill, contradicting itself? i think so!

Tell me now, would someone go to hell either way since if they kill they're breaking bible but if they don't kill their still breaking bible by not following the law that made them do so.Ummm, it's murder that is wrong, not killing. God kills, has man kill, and when He returns will kill. So let's keep this in proper terms.

Killing is God's way to see His will be done. Protecting is His will, thus the need for soldiers and police to kill. Setting up for His Son was His holy will and used man to kill everything in the way of this.

Murder is satan's twist on killing to thwart God and destroy man and God's will for man.

Question, as a Christian why are you asking this the way you did? Seems you're actually trying to find fault in God's will or His Word. So instead of asking us, place yourself before God and allow Him to lead you through scripture led by the Holy Spirit to find answers. Don't read the Bible as a book, but instead as the Word of God cause the Bible isn't what God "said", it's what God is "saying". What He's saying is clear about this topic.

Figure I'd point that out to ya.

IamBill
Dec 16th 2008, 06:22 PM
Nowhere that has nothing to do with it lol, I said what if a STATE / COUNTRY LAW forced you to kill. Well my friend, then you have to make a choice, break the law and go to hell or kill and go to hell. That was my question ;]

:lol: you don't go to hell by standing in Gods Law.

one might get you prison, the other ^ will get you Hell

and there is a difference between killing and murdering

MacGyver
Dec 16th 2008, 06:26 PM
One thing that is essential to the Faith is that the Bible does not contradict itself, so there is not a possibility of being faced with such a dilimma. Nothing can be possible and impossible at the same time.

But there are places in the Bible that are obscure until it is investigated deeply enough to be understood correctly. The so-called contradictions of the Bible are never contradictions but areas that takes a deeper understanding of the Bible and it's message as a whole.

As for killing, there are different levels of what killing is, such as killing in self defense, murder, accidental... Times that God had called for people to be killed was actually a self defense kind of command. God having a foreknowledge can see how some people would threaten the spiritual and physical existance of His people, so there has been times that God made commands in order to prevent it from happening. But God has never commanded that someone be murdered in the sense of evil.

Master Jake
Dec 16th 2008, 06:27 PM
Ugh your guys are making this hard, yes I was refering to murder the government telling you to kill for no reason ;p obey the governenment or the bible? technically either way you are disobeying the bible through murder or just by not obeying the law. And no I'm not questioning God I'm asking your guys opinion because if I'm ever told by the gov to kill I'd like to know if I still have a fighting chance of getting into to heaven.

kenrank
Dec 16th 2008, 06:32 PM
Nowhere that has nothing to do with it lol, I said what if a STATE / COUNTRY LAW forced you to kill. Well my friend, then you have to make a choice, break the law and go to hell or kill and go to hell. That was my question ;]

You just don't do it. You don't compremise GOD because man says to do something against the will of God. The fiery furnace is a good example of not giving it to the whims of man.

Peace,
ken

Master Jake
Dec 16th 2008, 06:39 PM
Sorry about my last post, MacGyver answered it properly and I guess I was already writing a message when he posted cause I didn't see it. Thanks guys!

Slug1
Dec 16th 2008, 06:45 PM
Ugh your guys are making this hard, yes I was refering to murder the government telling you to kill for no reason ;p obey the governenment or the bible? technically either way you are disobeying the bible through murder or just by not obeying the law. And no I'm not questioning God I'm asking your guys opinion because if I'm ever told by the gov to kill I'd like to know if I still have a fighting chance of getting into to heaven.Hard to answer this the way it's been presented ;)

For example, a man is found guilty of rape/murder and is sentenced to death. I would have no problem pulling the trigger. An enemy attacks this country and I'm told to go into another country and hunt the people who attacked us and all thier friends (anyone who harbors them), I would have no problem pulling the trigger as I did this for 21 years as an Infantryman anyway. Someone breaks into my house and can hurt me due to a weapon they have or because of their threatening attitude, my 12ga shotgun will stop this threat.

Paul had his life threatened and discovered a plot to kill him and he accepted the help from those soldiers. This is a man empowered my God to do His will and spread the gospel yet he still needed mans help to protect him. God uses man to help and protect (defensively or offensively) and if a government uses it's authority in a righteous way as this, then I see nothing wrong in "following orders".

Just to go out and threaten other nations (Germany in WWII as example), or use your "power" as a goverenment to keep your own citizen's freedom suppressed (Iraq as of 2003 and back for 30 years), are not good examples for "following orders" cause this violence is unrighteous and are just two examples of the type of violence that John the Baptist was talking about in Luke 3:14 that we sould not do as soldiers.

Master Jake
Dec 16th 2008, 07:05 PM
Hard to answer this the way it's been presented ;)

For example, a man is found guilty of rape/murder and is sentenced to death. I would have no problem pulling the trigger. An enemy attacks this country and I'm told to go into another country and hunt the people who attacked us and all thier friends (anyone who harbors them), I would have no problem pulling the trigger as I did this for 21 years as an Infantryman anyway. Someone breaks into my house and can hurt me due to a weapon they have or because of their threatening attitude, my 12ga shotgun will stop this threat.

Paul had his life threatened and discovered a plot to kill him and he accepted the help from those soldiers. This is a man empowered my God to do His will and spread the gospel yet he still needed mans help to protect him. God uses man to help and protect (defensively or offensively) and if a government uses it's authority in a righteous way as this, then I see nothing wrong in "following orders".

Just to go out and threaten other nations (Germany in WWII as example), or use your "power" as a goverenment to keep your own citizen's freedom suppressed (Iraq as of 2003 and back for 30 years), are not good examples for "following orders" cause this violence is unrighteous and are just two examples of the type of violence that John the Baptist was talking about in Luke 3:14 that we sould not do as soldiers.

Re-Post by Master Jake : Tue, Dec 16, 2008
Sorry about my last post, MacGyver answered it properly and I guess I was already writing a message when he posted cause I didn't see it. Thanks guys!

;] but thanks for the example xD

Slug1
Dec 16th 2008, 07:10 PM
Re-Post by Master Jake : Tue, Dec 16, 2008
Sorry about my last post, MacGyver answered it properly and I guess I was already writing a message when he posted cause I didn't see it. Thanks guys!

;] but thanks for the example xDCool, just keep in mind that the Bible doesn't contradict... it's our understanding that is lacking and sometimes man cannot help. That is why I told ya to just ask God and allow the Holy Spirit to lead you. Read the Bible in the spirit and allot more is revealed.

Thaddaeus
Dec 16th 2008, 11:31 PM
Nowhere that has nothing to do with it lol, I said what if a STATE / COUNTRY LAW forced you to kill. Well my friend, then you have to make a choice, break the law and go to hell or kill and go to hell. That was my question ;]

you are nick picking about a word used, as in war, capital punishment, if you are the person who is responsible to pull the switch on the electric chair, you are not accounted for their death! come on, I think you are smarter than that. you just want to fight against God , the one who only loved you

Esperanza32
Dec 17th 2008, 08:52 AM
And no I'm not questioning God I'm asking your guys opinion because if I'm ever told by the gov to kill I'd like to know if I still have a fighting chance of getting into to heaven.

I admire you for asking hard questions! Keep seeking. :)

The above quotation from you really jumped out at me. We don't get to heaven by keeping God's laws. We can't; we all fall way short! Jesus died for us and paid our price so that we can have eternal life. Because of Jesus, we get to have a relationship with God--starting now here on earth, and then continuing in heaven forever.

If your REAL question is "How can I ensure I'm going to heaven?" then the answer is in Romans 10:9--"If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved."

Emanate
Dec 17th 2008, 08:37 PM
Bible Laws:
1.) Do not kill
2.) Must follow laws

but what if there was a law that you must kill, contradicting itself? i think so!

Tell me now, would someone go to hell either way since if they kill they're breaking bible but if they don't kill their still breaking bible by not following the law that made them do so.


I do not have the materials in fron of me, but I am sure some of you can cite the proper sources. There are two different Hebrew words for murder and kill. The command actually states to not murder.

RabbiKnife
Dec 17th 2008, 08:48 PM
You don't go to heaven because you don't sin; you go to heaven because you have a relationship with Jesus and accept his sacrifice.

The apostles violated man's governmental law and said that they had to obey God rather than man.

Yukerboy
Dec 17th 2008, 11:29 PM
Murder is satan's twist on killing to thwart God and destroy man and God's will for man.


That may be, but when God told Israel to kill children and women in the Promised Land, to me that's murder.

To look a two year old child in the eyes as you drive a sword through his chest, call it what you want.

Slug1
Dec 18th 2008, 02:51 AM
That may be, but when God told Israel to kill children and women in the Promised Land, to me that's murder.

To look a two year old child in the eyes as you drive a sword through his chest, call it what you want.Call it what you want, I call it obedience to God. You would actually defy God and be disobedient? We don't have to understand the reasons, just follow through with God's will and as time goes on the truth and reasons come out for those who are obedient. As time went on the prophets began to speak about a savior and that savior is Jesus Christ who would not have been able to be born if Israel was disobedient and didn't slaughter men, women, children and beasts from the land God gave them.

Jesus will do the same to all those sided with satan when He returns... you serve a God who is a warrior and He will kill when necessary for His will to be done.

Yukerboy
Dec 18th 2008, 03:02 AM
Call it what you want, I call it obedience to God.

Which did they follow? His command to murder children or his command of thou shalt not murder?

Slug1
Dec 18th 2008, 03:08 AM
Which did they follow? His command to murder children or his command of thou shalt not murder?Dude, I made an edit. Killing is just the means for God to do His will in a fallen world to see His plans through when this is necessary. satan uses murder to try to stop that.

Yukerboy
Dec 18th 2008, 03:26 AM
We don't have to understand the reasons, just follow through with God's will and as time goes on the truth and reasons come out for those who are obedient.

That's why I said "to me, that's murder"

I agree with you in the fact that God commanded them to murder the children.

I'm not saying that they were wrong in doing that. I AM saying that I would have had an extremely difficult time with it.

Slug1
Dec 18th 2008, 03:33 AM
I'm not saying that they were wrong in doing that. I AM saying that I would have had an extremely difficult time with it.I'm sure many of them did also, as I would but that would not hold my hand from being obedient. It would definitely be a task that I'd place in my quote on line four in my signature.

Yukerboy
Dec 19th 2008, 03:41 AM
It was requested by the moderators that I explain myself more clearly.

Anyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life in him.

This is the definition of a murderer. This is not God.

However, God did command the Israelites to kill two year old children.

What do you call killing two year old children? I call it murder.

Now, what this shows is that those who are elected are Spirit led. When one is led by the Spirit, whatever they do is permissible, even if it looks to another to be sin.

While they were permitted to and even directed to murder children, God is not the author of sin.

We as Bible believing Christians must admit that God has a role in bringing evil about and that in doing so he is holy and blameless. God does bring sins about, but always for his own good purposes. So in bringing sin to pass he does not himself commit sin.

As Paul said, God made the law so that trespasses would increase.

God knew what Satan would do....and created him anyway.

God knew what vessels of dishounor would do.

God knew what Adam would choose.

God permitted Satan to kill Job's family.

God appointed Hitler to be the leader of Germany.

All of these are for God's good purposes to be fulfilled.

I hope that was clear.

Gregg
Dec 19th 2008, 04:16 PM
Darkness is the absence of light. Yet we call darkness as if it were actually something.

Evil is the absence of God. Evil is not God created. Man has choice. When we chose not to have God in our lives evil happens.

Friend of I AM
Dec 19th 2008, 05:09 PM
Darkness is the absence of light. Yet we call darkness as if it were actually something.

Evil is the absence of God. Evil is not God created. Man has choice. When we chose not to have God in our lives evil happens.

True man has choice, I think everything is used for God's purposes though...and that there is nothing that is outside of his control..or outside of him for that matter. Think of the story of Job for example. So God has sovereignty over all things, even those things deemed evil.

Now what I think you're going at though is that God is completely light...which I agree on. I believe that everything when used by him becomes as light though...or specifically he can use even those things that his creations do that are wicked to perform his good will.

Slug1
Dec 19th 2008, 07:59 PM
God will use the wicked as well as we see when He gave power to the King of Babylon to roll right over Israel and enslave them. So here we have God killing His own (men, women, children) at that time in history. He placed that evil spirit in King Saul. Just two examples that make so many Christian's scratch their heads.

Yukerboy
Dec 19th 2008, 11:33 PM
Darkness is the absence of light. Yet we call darkness as if it were actually something.

Evil is the absence of God. Evil is not God created. Man has choice. When we chose not to have God in our lives evil happens.

The words you say may ring true to some, but the Scripture to back that would be?

For, when did Job choose not to have God in his life that caused evil to happen?