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Hanibal Texter
Dec 17th 2008, 02:12 AM
I came across this church that say's Musical Instruments are Not permitted in church (voices only) they use this verse to say it is so.(Colossians 3:16)

Has anybody else ever deal with this. It seems so legalist to me. Is it really that cut and dry Thanks

uric3
Dec 17th 2008, 02:22 AM
I came across this church that say's Musical Instruments are Not permitted in church (voices only) they use this verse to say it is so.(Colossians 3:16)

Has anybody else ever deal with this. It seems so legalist to me. Is it really that cut and dry Thanks

I attend a church that believes that, and once you study the scriptures its apparent there is no example of the NT church using instrumental music. Granted it was used in the OT however under the NT we can't find a command, example, or even inferred that the early church worshiped in this manner. Also history shows that same thing we don't see historically any church using interments until around 666 AD.

"The organ is said to have been first employed in the church during the time of Pope Vitalian I." [c. 666 a.d.] (New International Encyclopedia, Vol. 13, p. 446).

I would like to type up a complete lesson as to why its not shown in the NT church however I don't have the time at the moment and my apologizes for that. However you can go to the following link and its a pretty good overview of why we don't see or hear of interments in the church until 600+ AD.

http://www.padfield.com/1994/music.html

and one more

http://www.scripturessay.com/article.php?cat=&id=670

I hope that helps, hopefully I'll have time to come back and add comments later on in the tread. Thanks

Whispering Grace
Dec 17th 2008, 02:31 AM
I attend a church that believes that, and once you study the scriptures its apparent there is no example of the NT church using instrumental music. Granted it was used in the OT however under the NT we can't find a command, example, or even inferred that the early church worshiped in this manner. Also history shows that same thing we don't see historically any church using interments until around 666 AD.

So you are saying the Psalms do not apply to Christians?

samphillipssr
Dec 17th 2008, 02:37 AM
Hanibal, they add what they want to think it means to the Bible. It doesn't say not to have music so what they teach is false. The verse
means to rejoice in your heart to the Lord by singing and praising Him.

Music with singing is beautiful and annointed.

In the old Test it talks of David dancing in praise to God for giving him victory over the enemy. ( 2Sam. 6:14 ) Read the other verses how they played music.

Here is a very long list with scriptures both in the old and new test. to prove music was a very important part of singing and is blessed of God.

Hope this helps...

1 Samuel 18:6 (http://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/1-Samuel-18-6/) And it came to pass as they came, when David was returned from the slaughter of the Philistine, that the women came out of all cities of Israel, singing and dancing, to meet king Saul, with tabrets, with joy, and with instruments of MUSICk.

1 Chronicles 15:16 (http://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/1-Chronicles-15-16/) And David spake to the chief of the Levites to appoint their brethren [to be] the singers with instruments of MUSICk, psalteries and harps and cymbals, sounding, by lifting up the voice with joy.

1 Chronicles 16:42 (http://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/1-Chronicles-16-42/) And with them Heman and Jeduthun with trumpets and cymbals for those that should make a sound, and with MUSICal instruments of God. And the sons of Jeduthun [were] porters.

2 Chronicles 5:13 (http://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/2-Chronicles-5-13/) It came even to pass, as the trumpeters and singers [were] as one, to make one sound to be heard in praising and thanking the LORD; and when they lifted up [their] voice with the trumpets and cymbals and instruments of MUSICk, and praised the LORD, [saying], For [he is] good; for his mercy [endureth] for ever: that [then] the house was filled with a cloud, [even] the house of the LORD;

2 Chronicles 7:6 (http://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/2-Chronicles-7-6/) And the priests waited on their offices: the Levites also with instruments of MUSICk of the LORD, which David the king had made to praise the LORD, because his mercy [endureth] for ever, when David praised by their ministry; and the priests sounded trumpets before them, and all Israel stood.

2 Chronicles 23:13 (http://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/2-Chronicles-23-13/) And she looked, and, behold, the king stood at his pillar at the entering in, and the princes and the trumpets by the king: and all the people of the land rejoiced, and sounded with trumpets, also the singers with instruments of MUSICk, and such as taught to sing praise. Then Athaliah rent her clothes, and said, Treason, Treason.

2 Chronicles 34:12 (http://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/2-Chronicles-34-12/) And the men did the work faithfully: and the overseers of them [were] Jahath and Obadiah, the Levites, of the sons of Merari; and Zechariah and Meshullam, of the sons of the Kohathites, to set [it] forward; and [other of] the Levites, all that could skill of instruments of MUSICk.

Nehemiah 12:36 (http://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/Nehemiah-12-36/) And his brethren, Shemaiah, and Azarael, Milalai, Gilalai, Maai, Nethaneel, and Judah, Hanani, with the MUSICal instruments of David the man of God, and Ezra the scribe before them.

Psalms 4:1 (http://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/Psalms-4-1/) Hear me when I call, O God of my righteousness: thou hast enlarged me [when I was] in distress; have mercy upon me, and hear my prayer.

Psalms 5:1 (http://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/Psalms-5-1/) Give ear to my words, O LORD, consider my meditation.

Psalms 6:1 (http://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/Psalms-6-1/) O LORD, rebuke me not in thine anger, neither chasten me in thy hot displeasure.

Psalms 8:1 (http://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/Psalms-8-1/) O LORD our Lord, how excellent [is] thy name in all the earth! who hast set thy glory above the heavens.

Psalms 9:1 (http://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/Psalms-9-1/) I will praise [thee], O LORD, with my whole heart; I will shew forth all thy marvellous works.

Psalms 11:1 (http://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/Psalms-11-1/) In the LORD put I my trust: how say ye to my soul, Flee [as] a bird to your mountain?

Psalms 12:1 (http://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/Psalms-12-1/) Help, LORD; for the godly man ceaseth; for the faithful fail from among the children of men.

Psalms 13:1 (http://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/Psalms-13-1/) How long wilt thou forget me, O LORD? for ever? how long wilt thou hide thy face from me?

Psalms 14:1 (http://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/Psalms-14-1/) The fool hath said in his heart, [There is] no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, [there is] none that doeth good.

Psalms 18:1 (http://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/Psalms-18-1/) I will love thee, O LORD, my strength.

Psalms 19:1 (http://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/Psalms-19-1/) The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork.

Psalms 20:1 (http://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/Psalms-20-1/) The LORD hear thee in the day of trouble; the name of the God of Jacob defend thee;

Psalms 21:1 (http://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/Psalms-21-1/) The king shall joy in thy strength, O LORD; and in thy salvation how greatly shall he rejoice!

Psalms 22:1 (http://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/Psalms-22-1/) My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? [why art thou so] far from helping me, [and from] the words of my roaring?

Psalms 31:1 (http://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/Psalms-31-1/) In thee, O LORD, do I put my trust; let me never be ashamed: deliver me in thy righteousness.

Psalms 36:1 (http://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/Psalms-36-1/) The transgression of the wicked saith within my heart, [that there is] no fear of God before his eyes.

Psalms 39:1 (http://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/Psalms-39-1/) I said, I will take heed to my ways, that I sin not with my tongue: I will keep my mouth with a bridle, while the wicked is before me.

Psalms 40:1 (http://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/Psalms-40-1/) I waited patiently for the LORD; and he inclined unto me, and heard my cry.

Psalms 41:1 (http://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/Psalms-41-1/) Blessed [is] he that considereth the poor: the LORD will deliver him in time of trouble.

Psalms 42:1 (http://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/Psalms-42-1/) As the hart panteth after the water brooks, so panteth my soul after thee, O God.

Psalms 44:1 (http://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/Psalms-44-1/) We have heard with our ears, O God, our fathers have told us, [what] work thou didst in their days, in the times of old.

Psalms 45:1 (http://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/Psalms-45-1/) My heart is inditing a good matter: I speak of the things which I have made touching the king: my tongue [is] the pen of a ready writer.

Psalms 46:1 (http://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/Psalms-46-1/) God [is] our refuge and strength, a very present help in trouble.

Psalms 47:1 (http://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/Psalms-47-1/) O clap your hands, all ye people; shout unto God with the voice of triumph.

Psalms 49:1 (http://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/Psalms-49-1/) Hear this, all [ye] people; give ear, all [ye] inhabitants of the world:

Psalms 51:1 (http://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/Psalms-51-1/) Have mercy upon me, O God, according to thy lovingkindness: according unto the multitude of thy tender mercies blot out my transgressions.

Psalms 52:1 (http://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/Psalms-52-1/) Why boastest thou thyself in mischief, O mighty man? the goodness of God [endureth] continually.

Psalms 53:1 (http://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/Psalms-53-1/) The fool hath said in his heart, [There is] no God. Corrupt are they, and have done abominable iniquity: [there is] none that doeth good.

Psalms 54:1 (http://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/Psalms-54-1/) Save me, O God, by thy name, and judge me by thy strength.

Psalms 55:1 (http://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/Psalms-55-1/) Give ear to my prayer, O God; and hide not thyself from my supplication.

Psalms 56:1 (http://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/Psalms-56-1/) Be merciful unto me, O God: for man would swallow me up; he fighting daily oppresseth me.

Psalms 57:1 (http://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/Psalms-57-1/) Be merciful unto me, O God, be merciful unto me: for my soul trusteth in thee: yea, in the shadow of thy wings will I make my refuge, until [these] calamities be overpast.

Psalms 58:1 (http://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/Psalms-58-1/) Do ye indeed speak righteousness, O congregation? do ye judge uprightly, O ye sons of men?

Psalms 59:1 (http://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/Psalms-59-1/) Deliver me from mine enemies, O my God: defend me from them that rise up against me.

Psalms 60:1 (http://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/Psalms-60-1/) O God, thou hast cast us off, thou hast scattered us, thou hast been displeased; O turn thyself to us again.

Psalms 61:1 (http://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/Psalms-61-1/) Hear my cry, O God; attend unto my prayer.

Psalms 62:1 (http://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/Psalms-62-1/) Truly my soul waiteth upon God: from him [cometh] my salvation.

Psalms 64:1 (http://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/Psalms-64-1/) Hear my voice, O God, in my prayer: preserve my life from fear of the enemy.

Psalms 65:1 (http://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/Psalms-65-1/) Praise waiteth for thee, O God, in Sion: and unto thee shall the vow be performed.

Psalms 66:1 (http://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/Psalms-66-1/) Make a joyful noise unto God, all ye lands:

Psalms 67:1 (http://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/Psalms-67-1/) God be merciful unto us, and bless us; [and] cause his face to shine upon us; Selah.

Psalms 68:1 (http://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/Psalms-68-1/) Let God arise, let his enemies be scattered: let them also that hate him flee before him.

Psalms 69:1 (http://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/Psalms-69-1/) Save me, O God; for the waters are come in unto [my] soul.

Psalms 70:1 (http://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/Psalms-70-1/) [Make haste], O God, to deliver me; make haste to help me, O LORD.

Psalms 75:1 (http://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/Psalms-75-1/) Unto thee, O God, do we give thanks, [unto thee] do we give thanks: for [that] thy name is near thy wondrous works declare.

Psalms 76:1 (http://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/Psalms-76-1/) In Judah [is] God known: his name [is] great in Israel.

Psalms 77:1 (http://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/Psalms-77-1/) I cried unto God with my voice, [even] unto God with my voice; and he gave ear unto me.

Psalms 80:1 (http://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/Psalms-80-1/) Give ear, O Shepherd of Israel, thou that leadest Joseph like a flock; thou that dwellest the cherubims, shine forth.

[B]Psalms 81:1 (http://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/Psalms-81-1/) Sing aloud unto God our strength: make a joyful noise unto the God of Jacob.

Psalms 84:1 (http://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/Psalms-84-1/) How amiable [are] thy tabernacles, O LORD of hosts!

Psalms 85:1 (http://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/Psalms-85-1/) LORD, thou hast been favourable unto thy land: thou hast brought back the captivity of Jacob.

Psalms 88:1 (http://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/Psalms-88-1/) <A the chief MUSICian Psalm of upon to for sons Korah, Song [or] Mahalath Leannoth, Maschil Heman Ezrahite.>O LORD God of my salvation, I have cried day [and] night before thee:

Psalms 109:1 (http://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/Psalms-109-1/) Hold not thy peace, O God of my praise;

Psalms 139:1 (http://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/Psalms-139-1/) O LORD, thou hast searched me, and known [me].

Psalms 140:1 (http://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/Psalms-140-1/) Deliver me, O LORD, from the evil man: preserve me from the violent man;

Ecclesiastes 2:8 (http://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/Ecclesiastes-2-8/) I gathered me also silver and gold, and the peculiar treasure of kings and of the provinces: I gat me men singers and women singers, and the delights of the sons of men, [as] MUSICal instruments, and that of all sorts.

Ecclesiastes 12:4 (http://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/Ecclesiastes-12-4/) And the doors shall be shut in the streets, when the sound of the grinding is low, and he shall rise up at the voice of the bird, and all the daughters of MUSICk shall be brought low;

Lamentations 3:63 (http://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/Lamentations-3-63/) Behold their sitting down, and their rising up; I [am] their MUSICk.

Lamentations 5:14 (http://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/Lamentations-5-14/) The elders have ceased from the gate, the young men from their MUSICk.

Daniel 3:5 (http://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/Daniel-3-5/) [That] at what time ye hear the sound of the cornet, flute, harp, sackbut, psaltery, dulcimer, and all kinds of MUSICk, ye fall down and worship the golden image that Nebuchadnezzar the king hath set up:

Daniel 3:7 (http://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/Daniel-3-7/) Therefore at that time, when all the people heard the sound of the cornet, flute, harp, sackbut, psaltery, and all kinds of MUSICk, all the people, the nations, and the languages, fell down [and] worshipped the golden image that Nebuchadnezzar the king had set up.

Daniel 3:10 (http://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/Daniel-3-10/) Thou, O king, hast made a decree, that every man that shall hear the sound of the cornet, flute, harp, sackbut, psaltery, and dulcimer, and all kinds of MUSICk, shall fall down and worship the golden image:

Daniel 3:15 (http://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/Daniel-3-15/) Now if ye be ready that at what time ye hear the sound of the cornet, flute, harp, sackbut, psaltery, and dulcimer, and all kinds of MUSICk, ye fall down and worship the image which I have made; [well]: but if ye worship not, ye shall be cast the same hour into the midst of a burning fiery furnace; and who [is] that God that shall deliver you out of my hands?

Daniel 6:18 (http://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/Daniel-6-18/) Then the king went to his palace, and passed the night fasting: neither were instruments of MUSICk brought before him: and his sleep went from him.

Amos 6:5 (http://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/Amos-6-5/) That chant to the sound of the viol, [and] invent to themselves instruments of MUSICk, like David;

Luke 15:25 (http://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/Luke-15-25/) Now his elder son was in the field: and as he came and drew nigh to the house, he heard MUSICk and dancing.

Revelation 18:22 (http://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/Revelation-18-22/) And the voice of harpers, and MUSICians, and of pipers, and trumpeters, shall be heard no more at all in thee; and no craftsman, of whatsoever craft [he be], shall be found any more in thee; and the sound of a millstone shall be heard no more at all in thee;

mikebr
Dec 17th 2008, 02:41 AM
I attend a church that believes that, and once you study the scriptures its apparent there is no example of the NT church using instrumental music. Granted it was used in the OT however under the NT we can't find a command, example, or even inferred that the early church worshiped in this manner. Also history shows that same thing we don't see historically any church using interments until around 666 AD.

"The organ is said to have been first employed in the church during the time of Pope Vitalian I." [c. 666 a.d.] (New International Encyclopedia, Vol. 13, p. 446).

I would like to type up a complete lesson as to why its not shown in the NT church however I don't have the time at the moment and my apologizes for that. However you can go to the following link and its a pretty good overview of why we don't see or hear of interments in the church until 600+ AD.

http://www.padfield.com/1994/music.html

and one more

http://www.scripturessay.com/article.php?cat=&id=670

I hope that helps, hopefully I'll have time to come back and add comments later on in the tread. Thanks

I also don't see them using electric lights, or Sunday school literature, pews, or heating and air condition.:hmm:

Bladers
Dec 17th 2008, 02:52 AM
I also don't see them using electric lights, or Sunday school literature, pews, or heating and air condition.:hmm:

neither piano, or electricity... lol

Hanibal Texter
Dec 17th 2008, 12:01 PM
I am reading and getting different view points to look at. Thank You!!

uric3
Dec 17th 2008, 03:10 PM
So you are saying the Psalms do not apply to Christians?

They are part of the Old Law / OT which was done away according to Col 2:13-ff as well as 2 Cor 3:7-11 etc...

How do we know that Psalms is part of of the Old law?

John 10:34 "34Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your Law, 'I have said you are gods'?" The passage that Jesus is quoting is Psalm 82:6 and Jesus himself noted it as Jewish Law.

Note: I'm not stating the the OL / OT is useless obviously we can learn a lot from it... however we don't follow its laws and worship as they worshiped we follow the NT order of things now.

So in short yes the Psalms do not apply to the Christian as law either.

uric3
Dec 17th 2008, 03:31 PM
I also don't see them using electric lights, or Sunday school literature, pews, or heating and air condition.:hmm:

I understand what you are stating however that isn't part of worship and oil lamp and a bulb do the same job they are just a light so we can see to worship.

I guess if studying a lesson for Sunday school off of paper isn't how we can share scripture we shouldn't have the Bible since they didn't have Bibles... its a piece of paper with Bible verses on it... no change in worship.

For the heating same as the fire places they used to keep warm... no change in worship...

Instruments Psalm 82:6 Instruments do change worship God ask for singing... and singing only why would God want a man made instruments for praise when he created each and every one a voice to praise him with...

We are all commanded to sing. Eph 5:19 and Col 3:16 so if you take those passages to include interments then shouldn't everyone have an interments? To fulfill what the verse ask for which is for everyone to do it?

Its obvious that it isn't talking about instruments because as pointed out they never even entered into worship until 666AD also no terms in those passages deal with instruments in anyway...

So where in the NT do you have an example, a command or it even inferred they were used during NT worship...

The answer is you can't... if you could I would pick up my drum set and go for it because I want to do exactly what God ask of me. Thus I don't go beyond what God wants me to do so I can please him.

vinsight4u8
Dec 17th 2008, 04:05 PM
Why do you think that harps are used in Revelation?

An instrument can help people stay on key.

uric3
Dec 17th 2008, 04:10 PM
Why do you think that harps are used in Revelation?

An instrument can help people stay on key.

Honestly I'll have to get back to you on that one... two things I can think of off the top of my head.

1. This is in a heavenly scene so its different that worship on earth.
2. Revelation everything is symbolic so is it really a harp? We see in Rev 1 that a candlestick represents a church... so who is to say for sure that its really a harp.

I plan to come back with a more in detail answer to this one, later as time permits.

superwoman8977
Dec 17th 2008, 04:34 PM
Okay I was going to stay out of this but I cant. I love music. I love the Praise Band at my church. Without the Praise Band the service would be dull and boring. Me and my kids love CCM and even my 10 yr old son is learning the electric guitar so he can play in the Praise Band this coming spring. Music is the spice of life without music there is no rhythm in life and it is mentioned in Psalms and Proverbs about how important music is. David played a harp and through the bible it talks of various instruments being played. I will also add that if I went to a church that did not have music that would be the last time I attend that church. Music ministers to the soul.

uric3
Dec 17th 2008, 04:51 PM
This is not my writing however I thought it answered several questions Jack Thompson wrote this and I am just copying his work since I don't have time to type it up my self. I highlighted in black the answers to Rev and the last post. Very interesting read for those who want to take time to do so...

Another comes along and says, "We have instruments in our Homes,
why can't we have them in the church." We have a lot of things in our
homes that we cannot bring into the worship of God's people. We have
ice cream and cake, fried chicken at home, but who would be willing to
bring them into the worship of God and put them on the Lord's Table as
a part of the Lord's Supper. Ice cream and cake might satisfy the
flesh more, but they would not please Jehovah. There are things that
a husband and wife can participate in at home, but surely, no one
would suggest that these would be permissible in our public worship to
our God. There is nothing wrong with the piano or organ in our homes,
but, where is the authority to bring them into the house of God?

Another says, "There are instruments in heaven. Look at
Revelation 14, It says there were harpers harping with their harps.
Don't you see, there are harps in heaven. And if there are harps in
heaven, surely we can use them in worship to God today." My friend,
you have misread that passage. Let us look at it closer. John says,
"And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as
the voice of a great thunder; and the voice which I heard was as the
voice of harpers harping of their harps: and they sing as it was a new
song before the throne..." (Revelation 14:2-3). What did John hear?
John heard a VOICE. That voice was singing. The sound that John heard
sounded as "Many waters," as "Great Thunder," as "harpers harping."
No, my friend, John did not hear harps, nor waters, nor thunder. John
heard a voice, and that voice was singing. But, also, John saw a lot
of things in His Vision. Were they literal? John saw horses, golden
bowls. Were they literal? Can you imagine a spiritual being playing
upon a material harp? This is really stretching something to justify
mechanical instruments in worship today by twisting John's vision in
Revelation. But, even if you could locate harps in heaven, you still
have not found authority for them in worship today.

Someone else says, "Mechanical instruments are an aid to
singing." My question is very simple. An aid to what? Do they help
us to teach and admonish? Very often the instrument even drowns out
the teaching that is done. The words cannot be heard. Instruments are
not an aid. They are an addition. There are two kinds of music: Vocal
and mechanical. God commands vocal--SING. Man comes along and adds
mechanical instruments. My friend, God's ways do not need aids.
Isn't it strange how man wants to improve of God's way of doing
things; never content to do things that the Lord commands the way that
He commanded. An illustration just here: You see a man with a walking
stick. The walking stick is an aid to walking. The man gets in a car.
The car is not an aid to walking; it is another method of movement. So
likewise, mechanical instruments of music are additions to God's
commands. And additions made by man have always been condemned by the
Lord. When one says the instrument is an aid, he is appealing to human
logic. He is not looking for authority.

Another says, "The Bible does not say not to use mechanical
instruments in our worship." Question. Can we do anything or
everything that the Bible does not specifically condemn? God's book
tells man how to worship, not how not to worship. Granted there are
some negatives. But, think what the Lord would have had to say if He
covered all of the "thou shalt not...." Another point just here. There
is a vast difference between Generic and Specific authority. When the
Lord spoke to Noah in Genesis 6, He told Noah to build the ark out of
"gopher wood." That is specific authority. If He had told Noah, "Make
the ark out of wood," that would have been generic authority, and Noah
could have used any kind of wood that he had available. When the Lord
said, "Gopher wood," that eliminated all other kind of wood. He did
not have to tell Noah, "Now do not use oak, do not use pine, do not
use cedar, do not use ash," and on and on we could go. By specifying
"gopher wood," He left all the others out. When the Lord said "Sing,"
He eliminated any other kind of music, and that includes mechanical
instruments of music. Again, we need to recognize the silence of God's
word. Where God has not spoken, man has no right to come along and say
"Well, since the Lord has not told us, we are free to do whatever we
wish to do, just whatever seems right to us." Oh, No!! If that is so,
then each person becomes their own authority and we can do just
anything that we wish. God's commandments include all that they teach
and they exclude all else. It is tragic that man has never learned
this lesson.

Occasionally, the argument is made that says the work "Psallo, as
is used in Ephesians 5:19, includes a mechanical instrument." Again, I
must differ with this conclusion. True, the word, "Psallo," by
definition means, "to twing, to pluck," but the instrument that is to
be twinged, or plucked is always mentioned in the context, it always
accompanies the verb. In Ephesians 5:19, what is to be twinged or
plucked? Paul says it is the heart. Hear him: "speaking one to
another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making
melody with your heart to the Lord." When the King James Version of
the Bible was being translated, the translators (composed of 54 of the
leading scholars of the world) looked at the word "Psallo," and gave
it the translation, "SING." When the American Standard translation
was being made, 101 scholars looked at "Psallo," and translated it,
"SING." That should tell us something. And to my knowledge, no
translation that is consider dependable has ever translated the word
"Psallo," to mean "PLAY."

Someone else comes along and says, "I like mechanical
instrumental music in worship." Now, that one I have no answer for. I
simply cannot respond to anyone who says, "I am doing this because I
like it. I do not have any desire to find Bible authority. I do not
care what God's Word says. I know I like this and I am going to do
it." What can one say about that kind of attitude. About all I can say
is, "Does the Lord like it?" If you say, "Yes," I ask, How do you
know? Has He told you? Has He given you some special revelation? Just
how do you know that the Lord approves of it? If He has not told you,
and no where do you find it in His Book, are you not taking a big
chance on eternity to stand before Jehovah with the excuse, "I did
that because I liked it"?

My friends in this radio audience; do we need authority for all
that we do in religion. Or, are we at liberty to just do anything
that seems right to us? If this is so, each person becomes God's law
to himself or herself--Just do what please self. In Proverbs 14:12,
the prophet says, "There is a way which seemeth right unto a man; But
the end thereof are the ways of death." Let us not rest our eternal
destiny up what seems good to me. Rather, let us rest our eternal
destiny upon "a thus saith the Lord." Jesus states, "the word that I
spake, the same shall judge him in the last day" (John 12:48). May we
all ask the question, "Lord what would you have me to do?"

holyrokker
Dec 17th 2008, 04:53 PM
They are part of the Old Law / OT which was done away according to Col 2:13-ff as well as 2 Cor 3:7-11 etc...

How do we know that Psalms is part of of the Old law?

John 10:34 "34Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your Law, 'I have said you are gods'?" The passage that Jesus is quoting is Psalm 82:6 and Jesus himself noted it as Jewish Law.

Note: I'm not stating the the OL / OT is useless obviously we can learn a lot from it... however we don't follow its laws and worship as they worshiped we follow the NT order of things now.

So in short yes the Psalms do not apply to the Christian as law either.
Matthew 5:17-19 Jesus says, "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven."

uric3
Dec 17th 2008, 06:12 PM
Matthew 5:17-19 Jesus says, "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven."

I never said the OT was abolished we just don't follow its laws and commands any longer however we can still study and learn from it we just don't offer a yearly sacrifice, burn insense,etc.... Look at the trouble it caused in Acts 15... also look at the warning in Gal 5:1-5 if you're going to take you must be circumcised then you might as well start offering up that Ox because Christ doesn't prophet you anything.

I tihnk you could say if you take burning insense you might as well keep you must be circumcised. Because as stated in Gal 5:3 "...that he is a debtor to do the whole law."

So if you take instruments you might as well get that Ox ready... because you just can't find it in the NT. Nor in history until 666AD...

one_lost_coin
Dec 17th 2008, 06:25 PM
I came across this church that say's Musical Instruments are Not permitted in church (voices only) they use this verse to say it is so.(Colossians 3:16)

Has anybody else ever deal with this. It seems so legalist to me. Is it really that cut and dry Thanks


They must have the pages missing that include the playing of the harp, various kinds of cymbals.

Sadly missing pages seems to be a common affliction to all those who come up with equally unique beliefs.

here is the beauty they are missing out on

Psalm 150
1(A (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=23&chapter=150&version=47#cen-ESV-16396A)) Praise the LORD!Praise God in his(B (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=23&chapter=150&version=47#cen-ESV-16396B)) sanctuary;
praise him in(C (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=23&chapter=150&version=47#cen-ESV-16396C)) his mighty heavens![a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=23&chapter=150&version=47#fen-ESV-16396a)]
2Praise him for his(D (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=23&chapter=150&version=47#cen-ESV-16397D)) mighty deeds;
praise him according to his excellent(E (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=23&chapter=150&version=47#cen-ESV-16397E)) greatness!
3Praise him with(F (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=23&chapter=150&version=47#cen-ESV-16398F)) trumpet sound;
praise him with(G (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=23&chapter=150&version=47#cen-ESV-16398G)) lute and harp!
4Praise him with(H (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=23&chapter=150&version=47#cen-ESV-16399H)) tambourine and(I (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=23&chapter=150&version=47#cen-ESV-16399I)) dance;
praise him with(J (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=23&chapter=150&version=47#cen-ESV-16399J)) strings and pipe!
5Praise him with sounding(K (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=23&chapter=150&version=47#cen-ESV-16400K)) cymbals;
praise him with loud clashing cymbals!
6Let(L (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=23&chapter=150&version=47#cen-ESV-16401L)) everything that has breath praise the LORD!(M (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=23&chapter=150&version=47#cen-ESV-16401M)) Praise the LORD!

Our church very often sings voices only when there are no instrumentalists around and it is very beautiful.

teddyv
Dec 17th 2008, 06:36 PM
I attend a church that believes that, and once you study the scriptures its apparent there is no example of the NT church using instrumental music. Granted it was used in the OT however under the NT we can't find a command, example, or even inferred that the early church worshiped in this manner. Also history shows that same thing we don't see historically any church using interments until around 666 AD.

"The organ is said to have been first employed in the church during the time of Pope Vitalian I." [c. 666 a.d.] (New International Encyclopedia, Vol. 13, p. 446).

I would like to type up a complete lesson as to why its not shown in the NT church however I don't have the time at the moment and my apologizes for that. However you can go to the following link and its a pretty good overview of why we don't see or hear of interments in the church until 600+ AD.

http://www.padfield.com/1994/music.html

and one more

http://www.scripturessay.com/article.php?cat=&id=670

I hope that helps, hopefully I'll have time to come back and add comments later on in the tread. Thanks
I was in the understanding that the organ was introduced into the churches to replace orchestras. True pipe organs weren't in churches til the 14th century or so. Yes, there were earlier organs.

Anyway, from a church that makes extensive use of musical intruments, I have no issue with their use and find it hard that God would have an issue with people using their gifts for His glorification and edification of the church body. If no instruments works for your congregation and/or denomination, great.

uric3
Dec 17th 2008, 06:38 PM
They must have the pages missing that include the playing of the harp, various kinds of cymbals.

Sadly missing pages seems to be a common affliction to all those who come up with equally unique beliefs.

here is the beauty they are missing out on

Psalm 150
1(A (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=23&chapter=150&version=47#cen-ESV-16396A)) Praise the LORD!Praise God in his(B (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=23&chapter=150&version=47#cen-ESV-16396B)) sanctuary;
praise him in(C (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=23&chapter=150&version=47#cen-ESV-16396C)) his mighty heavens![a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=23&chapter=150&version=47#fen-ESV-16396a)]
2Praise him for his(D (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=23&chapter=150&version=47#cen-ESV-16397D)) mighty deeds;
praise him according to his excellent(E (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=23&chapter=150&version=47#cen-ESV-16397E)) greatness!
3Praise him with(F (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=23&chapter=150&version=47#cen-ESV-16398F)) trumpet sound;
praise him with(G (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=23&chapter=150&version=47#cen-ESV-16398G)) lute and harp!
4Praise him with(H (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=23&chapter=150&version=47#cen-ESV-16399H)) tambourine and(I (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=23&chapter=150&version=47#cen-ESV-16399I)) dance;
praise him with(J (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=23&chapter=150&version=47#cen-ESV-16399J)) strings and pipe!
5Praise him with sounding(K (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=23&chapter=150&version=47#cen-ESV-16400K)) cymbals;
praise him with loud clashing cymbals!
6Let(L (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=23&chapter=150&version=47#cen-ESV-16401L)) everything that has breath praise the LORD!(M (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=23&chapter=150&version=47#cen-ESV-16401M)) Praise the LORD!

Our church very often sings voices only when there are no instrumentalists around and it is very beautiful.

Please read the thread before posting... if your read post 2,8,9,11,13,15 it should address most of your questions / comments. Not being mean but it would be helpful so the same thing doesn't get stated several times...

RogerW
Dec 17th 2008, 06:44 PM
Hi Uric,

What you are endorsing I wholeheartedly agree! Truth is that if it is not specifically mandated in Scripture, then we ought not do it. I think you might appreciate the following.


The Regulative Principle in Worship: A brief article. by Dr. C. Matthew McMahon The Regulative Principle was given its classical and definitive statement in the reformed Confessions formulated in the 17th century. It is stated in Chapter 21 paragraph 1 in the Westminster Confession:


The light of nature showeth that there is a God, who hath lordship and sovereignty over all, is good, and doth good unto all, and is therefore to be feared, loved, praised, called upon, trusted in, and served, with all the heart, and with all the soul, and with all the might.[1] But the acceptable way of worshiping the true God is instituted by himself, and so limited by his own revealed will, that he may not be worshiped according to the imaginations and devices of men, or the suggestions of Satan, under any visible representation, or any other way not prescribed in the Holy Scripture.[2]

1. Rom. 1:20; Psa. 19:1-4a; 50:6; 86:8-10; 89:5-7; 95:1-6; 97:6; 104:1-35; 145:9-12; Acts 14:17; Deut. 6:4-5
2. Deut. 4:15-20; 12:32; Matt. 4:9-10; 15:9; Acts 17:23-25; Exod. 20:4-6, John 4:23-24; Col. 2:18-23
Simply the Regulative Principle States this: True worship is only commanded by God; false worship is anything not commanded. This was the Puritan’s view of worship. As Samuel Waldron has said, "It seems that one of the major intellectual stumbling blocks which hinders men from embracing the Regulative Principle is that it involves the idea that the church and its worship is ordered in a regulated way different from the rest of life. In the rest of life God gives men the great precepts and general principles of his word and within the bounds of these directions allows them to order their lives as seems best to them. He does not give them minute directions as to how they shall build their houses or pursue their secular vocations. The Regulative principle, on the other hand, involves a limitation on human initiative in freedom not characteristic of the rest of life. It clearly assumes that there is a distinction between the way the church and its worship is to be ordered and the way the rest of human society and conduct is to be ordered. Thus, the Regulative Principle is liable to strike many as oppressive, peculiar, and, therefore, suspiciously out of accord with God’s dealings with mankind and the rest of life." True enough.


It should be seen as appropriate at that house of God be ordered by God’s rules. It should be seen as appropriate that God’s people are to be ordered by God’s rules. It should be seen as appropriate that worship, that which shows reverence, piety, love, desire, and joy in God, be structured and ordered according to God’s word and His biblical principles lying therein. Worship for the Christian should be an expression of God’s heart back to God. We ought to reflect back to God how wonderful and most blessed He is. It is impossible to worship God by human invention. It is impossible to worship God by human ingenuity. It is impossible to worship God in an atmosphere that has not been structured and ordered by God and His word. The Regulative Principle which is found in the Bible and expressed clearly in its climactic expression by the Puritans should not be placed by the way side because we and our contemporary culture are more fascinated and captivated by being entertained rather than by worshipping God.


The Presbyterian Puritans, in assembling the Westminster standards, and the Reformed Baptist Puritans, in assembling the 1689 London Baptist Confession, were both aiming at the same thing: acceptable worship to Christ. Let us first look at the WCF and then we will look at the Biblical arguments which support this statement of worship. The Confession first states, "The light of Nature shews that there is a God, who hath Lordship, and Sovereignty over all; is just, good, and doth good unto all; and is therefore to be feared, loved, praised, called upon, trusted in, and served, with all the Heart, and all the Soul, (a) and with all the Might." Here we find the biblical and philosophical arguments for the existence of God preceding the worship of that God which exists. The very light of nature, if one was to argue through in his apologetics, would come to the conclusion that there is a God. This God is the Sovereign Lord of the universe. Not only does this statement say that God is sovereign, but also that God is sovereign over all. He is the God who rules and who reigns over every living thing, every creature, every rock, every atom, anywhere in the entire universe. He is God over all. Because there is such a God who is good, just, does good unto all, or at least may do good unto all, he is therefore to be feared, loved, praised, called upon, trusted in, and served with all the heart, might and soul. If this God is holy, then there is a right and wrong way of approaching this God. In God’s word Jesus Christ has given mankind not only the ability to approach God but also all of the directives are by which we may approach him. His atonement assures this to the elect. The confession states that God is to be served, in essence, because he is God. So we see that the Puritans could not begin by just stating how worship is to be ordered and structured without first stating something about the God who is to be worshipped.


The second part of the paragraph says this, "But the acceptable way of worshipping the true God, is instituted by himself; and so limited by his own revealed will, that he may not be worshipped according to the imaginations, and devices of men, or the suggestions of Satan, under any visible representations, or any other way, not prescribed in the Holy Scriptures." The word "acceptable" is used on purpose which intimates that there is an unacceptable way of worshipping the true God. They chose their words carefully stating that worshipping God is instituted by God himself. And since, then, it is instituted by Himself, it is limited by what God has revealed about Himself. Only those things which are found in the Scriptures, which expressly state certain conditions of worship, are acceptable worship to God. What man may make up, what he may devise, what he may add, what he may take away, or what he may be tempted to do by listening to the devil, is not acceptable. And the Puritans were sure to state that the worship of God is not to be done by any visible representations or any other way not prescribed in the Holy Scriptures. Thus they were combating the idolatry of Catholicism with its images and idols, and of any kind of will-worship. (We will see what will-worship is in a moment.) Thus, from WCF, we see that the Puritans were aiming at purity of worship; worship that was pleasing to God, and worship that was taken completely from the Scriptures alone. They could not in good conscience allow sinful men to dictate to God the means by which sinful men may approach God. And it ought not to be that any good Christian would think himself so above sin to be able to tell God how he should approach God. God alone, being holy and pure, is able in and of Himself, to dictate to human beings how they may approach Him.

to be continued:

RogerW
Dec 17th 2008, 06:46 PM
There are four biblical arguments for the Puritan Regulative principle of the church and its worship seen in the WCF. First, 1) It is the prerogative of God alone to determine the terms on which sinners may approach Him in worship. The principle that lies in the basis of the whole argument is that in regard to the ordinance of public worship it is the authority of God, and not the will of man, to determine both the terms in a manner of such worshipped. The path of the approach to God was shut and barred in consequence of man’s sin: it was impossible for man to renew the which had been so solemnly closed by the Judicial sentence which excluded him from the presence and favor of God. Could that path ever again be opened up, and the communion of God with man and of man with God ever again be renewed? This was a question of God alone to determine. If it could, on what terms was the renewal of to take place, and in what manner was the fellowship of the creature with its creator again to be maintained? This, too, was a question no less than a former for God alone to resolve. But not only is God just in His prerogative, but the Bible shows that He exercises it as well. (Genesis 4:1-5; Exodus 20:4-6) Should God decree that He will be worshipped only by those wearing white T-shirts, He would have the right to do so. If God did decree that every Christian should wear a white T-shirt to worship Him, I would imagine that all Christians, who truly love the Lord, will go out and buy a whole bunch of white T-shirts so that they never run out again. They would come to church wearing the white T-shirt that God commanded they wear for worship. God is the one who commands worship of us. What arrogance for man to think that he has the least business in determining how God will be worshipped!

The second Puritan principle of the regulative principle in worship is this, 2) The introduction of extra Biblical practices into worship inevitably tends to nullify and undermine God’s appointed worship. (Matthew 15:3,8,9; 2 Kings 16:10-18) 2 Kings 16:10-18 demonstrates that there is a way in which extra biblical practices inevitably, but often with great subtlety, displaced the appointed worship of God. King Ahaz in his apostasy from God and alliance with Assyria set his heart on having another alter like that which he saw in Damascus. He ordered the construction of such an altar and that it should be placed in the central place occupied by the old bronze altar. This altar displaced the old altar as the place upon which the regular morning and evening offerings shall be offered; but the old God appointed altar is, however, not destroyed. Of course not! It is simply placed in a corner, verse 14. In a footnote to his decree on this matter, King Ahaz assures his more traditional subjects that no insult was intended to the old God appointed altar. That decree concludes, "But the bronze altar shall be for me to acquire by", verse 15. Human innovators pay lip service to the God appointed elements of worship and simultaneously, in the very act, nullify them. How strikingly this illustrates the subtlety with which extra biblical practices have the tendency to displace the divine the appointed altars of biblical worship! This tendency is illustrated in evangelical churches today where mundane or silly announcements, special music, testimony times, mime, puppet shows, liturgical dance and Christian movies either completely replace or severely restrict the ordained parts of worship. These or other traditions of men, for instance, often leave only 20 minutes for preaching.

The third principle the Puritans drew from the Scriptures is this, 3) That if sinful men were to add any unappointed elements into worship, they would, by this action, be calling into question the wisdom of Jesus Christ and the complete sufficiency of the Scriptures alone. 2 Timothy 3:16-17 states this, "all scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; that a man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work." The man of God referred to in this text is not a reference to every individual Christian. There are compelling reasons rather to identify "the man of God any", as the man who like Timothy was charged to provide order and leadership to the Church of God. The elders in a church are to use the Scriptures in such a way to dictate what the order and structure of worship is to be. It is not that the elders implement their own worship, rather, by holding steadfastly to the word of God, they implement what God states and desires for worship for the people of God. The Scriptures then, are able to fully equip the man of God for every good work in the Church of God, for the glory of God in worship.
Fourthly, The Puritans were very adamant to prove that the Bible explicitly condemns all worship that is not commanded by God. Scriptures proving this are the following:

Leviticus 10:1-3; Deuteronomy 17:3; Deuteronomy 4:2; Deuteronomy 12:29-32; Joshua 1:7; 23:6-8; Matthew 15:8-13; Colossians 2:20-23. We will look Leviticus 10:1-3 and then two New Testament verses that are listed here both in Matthew and Colossians.

Leviticus 10:1-3 states, "And Nadab and Abihu, the sons of Aaron, took either of them his censer, and put fire therein, and put incense thereon, and offered strange fire before the LORD, which he commanded them not.
And there went out fire from the LORD, and devoured them, and they died before the LORD. Then Moses said unto Aaron, This is it that the LORD spake, saying, I will be sanctified in them that come nigh me, and before all the people I will be glorified. And Aaron held his peace."

The text first shows us that Nadab and Abihu came to offer incense to God. They offered incense and God did not accept it. God was not pleased with what they offered. The offered "strange fire". Now this is somewhat of an odd statement. God never told them that they could not offer this strange fire. You would look through the Scriptures in vain to find the commandment which stated they were not allowed to do this. Rather, we do find what God does tell them. Though God did not expressly forbid this strange fire to be brought, we see from the text that God did not approve of it, and killed them on the spot for offering it. Nadab and Abihu took it upon themselves to offer to God something He did not expressly ask for and God "smote" them for it. The principle here does not die. God will be "sanctified" by those who draw near to Him. That means He will be regarded as holy, utterly separated by His people. God will receive His due glory whether it be in justice upon Nadab and Abihu for offering strange fire, or by right worship. They did not offer right worship and so were consumed. God desires right worship. Nadab and Abihu’s sin was offering that which God did not command. God never threatened to kill them if they offered strange fire, but He killed them nonetheless. This would also show us that God’s Word must be careful exegeted to find its proper meaning, least we ourselves become the victims of His wrath. God is very picky about His worship.

(This text has been masterfully exegeted by Jeremiah Burroughs in his book "Gospel Worship". Burroughs gives a number of expository sermons on these few verses numbering over 400 pages. The first sermon will be on this section of the web page soon. An excellent treatment of these verses.)

The second Scripture to look at is Matthew 15:8-9, "This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me. But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men."

This is a very striking statement. Jesus explains that the people, though they profess Him, really do not possess Him because they do not truly worship Him. They honor Him with their mouth by their testimony. They say they are Christians, they say they love Him, they say many things. (And please note, that in this context He is speaking about the Pharisees who seem to have their religion neatly packaged "just for God".) But Jesus goes on to say that their hearts are not near Him. Their hearts are somewhere else. They do not belong to Christ. They do not really worship Christ. Rather, they add things to God’s worship and thus teach as "doctrines" (or Gospel truths) the vain imaginations of men. The commandments which men make up (like additions to worship) are condemned here because they do not truly honor Christ. Man is not given the right to create the ambience of worshipping and drawing near to God. Jesus condemns any creation of this on the part of man.

The third Scripture to examine is Colossians 2:20-23, "Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances, (Touch not; taste not; handle not; Which all are to perish with the using;) after the commandments and doctrines of men? Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body; not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh."

Here Paul is refuting the false worship which men may impose on others. Worship not rightly divided from the word of God is called "will-worship". It is, in essence, a worship of the self, because it is a worship from the self and what the "self" likes. Will-worship is when the human factor is the agent by which worship is dictated. Often, this is when the pew dictates to the pulpit what is preached, and how the worship is structured. Oftentimes churches cater to the world and create an atmosphere "unthreatening" to the world so they fill up the church. Unfortunately, the church then becomes like the world, instead of the conversion of souls to make the world the church. Worship then becomes a matter of taste, and convenience. Human desire becomes the deciding factor. Imagine if Nadab and Abihu were allowed to come and visit the contemporary church—they would fall to the ground and weep bitterly knowing that their sin is still carried on today with acceptance.

The Puritans desired simple, biblical worship. They regulated their worship by the Bible instead of their own "wills". They had no desire to offer strange fire no matter how "exciting" the strange fire would be to the spectators. They were not interested in putting on a show. When Elijah was on Mt. Carmel in 1 Kings 18, he asked the people if they were ready to follow God or Baal. When posed with the question, the people were silent. When Elijah said he wanted to have a "contest" with the priests (a "show"), what did the people do? They were all excited about it. "Yes! Let’s have a show!" And so they did. The "contemporary church" is the same today. They want a show. They want fire to fall from heaven. They want the spectacular, or at least as entertaining as "church may be". But God is displeased. And if it were not for the grace of God, most "churches" today would be consumed as Nadab and Abihu were.
May the God of worship open the eyes of the blind that they may see.

Many Blessings,
RW

th1bill
Dec 17th 2008, 07:11 PM
Instruments Psalm 82:6 Instruments do change worship God ask for singing... and singing only why would God want a man made instruments for praise when he created each and every one a voice to praise him with...

We are all commanded to sing. Eph 5:19 and Col 3:16 so if you take those passages to include interments then shouldn't everyone have an interments? To fulfill what the verse ask for which is for everyone to do it?

Its obvious that it isn't talking about instruments because as pointed out they never even entered into worship until 666AD also no terms in those passages deal with instruments in anyway...
... I have seen this argument, that in no way glorifies God, put forth so many times that it just makes me sick that it continues. I have also attended services in a Church of Christ assembly and still have no argument with them for their choice to exclude instruments from their services but when one becomes legalistic, as you are attempting here, you dishonor God and make Christianity the laughing stock of the world around us. In the Church that has been saved by grace alone, such legalism is completely out of place. We are commanded to worship in truth and in spirit and that will mean different things to different people. God did not roll out the human dough with His rolling pin to get it all even and uniform and then take his boy cookie cutter and His girl cookie cutter and cut us all from the same dough with the same cutter.
... Now, you alluded to the Old Testament being done away with in spite of the words of our Master that He had not done away with it but had instead completed the Law. If you are making the claim that you are a New Testament Christian I'll need to point out that except for the four Gospels there would be no New Testament without the Jewish Bible. Not only does twenty-three of the books use the Old Testament as the basis of their commentary but in the Gospels Jesus continually references the Old Testament. When He declared Himself to be Messiah he read the prophecy declaring His status from the old Testament.
... That you choose to glorify God by the voice alone is a good choice, for you. That I do so with my instrument is a good choice for me and neither one of us has the right to run around condemning the other for bringing Glory and Honor to God in their way because the case for both methods are drawn from God's Word.

faithfulfriend
Dec 17th 2008, 08:09 PM
Most everyone agrees that God approved of musical instruments in the Old Testament. They were considered instruments of praise and their use in worship was even commanded, (II Chronicles 29:25, I Chronicles 23:5, Psalms 150: 14). Yet some teach that it is wrong to use musical instruments in worship today. They claim God only approves of singing in worship. They claim the New Testament is silent on the use of musical instruments.

Some have said that those who approve of musical instruments base it on David’s use of them in worship. Then they go on to point out that David also offered incense, kept the Sabbath etc., which are not binding on Christians today. Before we get into the New Testament teachings about musical instruments, there are a few comments needed about Old Testament worship. Israel’s worship of God was not just meaningless rituals with out any significance. There was a divine purpose behind it all. The Mosaic rites, those outward forms of religion were “typical” or “shadows” of things to come, (Colossians 2: 16-17). The tabernacle and all connected with its worship are said to be an “example and shadow of heavenly things” (Hebrews 8:5). The animal sacrifices typified the sacrifice of Christ, the “Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world,” (John 1:24). Jesus Christ “washed us from our sins in his own blood, (Revelations 1:5). Only after the blood of Christ has been applied (spiritually) to our heart can we worship God acceptably. The Sabbath that David kept was one of physical rest. It was to typify a perfect soul rest of the Christian, (Hebrews 4:3-11). The Sabbath, like other ceremonial requirements of the Mosaic Law were abolished, (Colossians 2:14-17, Hebrews 8:6-17) but the blessed soul rest it prefigured remains for the people of God. So Christians do not offer animal sacrifices, keep the literal Sabbath, etc. because we have the substance of those things the Mosaic Law fore-shadowed. Explaining types and shadows are not our purpose in this explanation. My point is that David’s keeping the law etc. has no affect on the use of musical instruments. David also sang and prayed as Christians do today. Musical instruments nor singing and praying were abolished by the scriptures.

Now we come to the New Testament authority for musical instruments. Colossians 3:16, “Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.” The meaning of the word “psalms” in this verse taken from Vine's Exposition Dictionary of Biblical words copyright 1985, Thomas Nelson Publishers, is as follows: Psalm - psalmos - 5568 - primarily denoted “a striking or twitching with the fingers (on musical strings)”; then, “a sacred song, sung to musical accompaniment, a psalm.” The Greek dictionary of the New Testament in Strong's Concordance of the same word says “a set piece of music, i.e. a sacred ode accompanied with the voice, harp or other instrument; a psalm." So we see the New Testament is not silent on the subject of musical instruments when we understand the meaning of the word psalm. Therefore, Christians are admonished to use musical instruments (Col. 3:16) in their worship. This same thought is also found in Ephesians 5:18-19, “... be filled with the Spirit; speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord.” God has approved the use of musical instruments in worship in both the Old and the New Testaments. This is the reason God’s church, the New Testament Church, uses musical instruments in their worship services. In the eighty-seventh chapter of the book of Psalms we read of prophecy concerning the church of the New Testament. “And of Zion it shall be said, This and that man were born in her: and the highest himself shall establish her. The Lord shall count when he writeth up the people, that this man was born there,” (Psalms 87:5-6). Zion is a metaphor for the Church of the New Testament, (see Hebrews 12:22). Salvation adds one to the New Testament Church (Acts 2:47). So to get into the church one must be born, (born again) into it. The Highest Himself has established the New Testament church. When one is born again his name is written not in some man made membership book but written in the Lamb's book of life (Revelation 21:27). Continuing on is this same chapter about the New Testament Church the very next verse should forever settle the issue about musical instruments in worship. For we have a direct quote of the use of musical instruments in New Testament worship. “As well the singers as the players on instruments shall be there…” (Psalms 87:7).

one_lost_coin
Dec 17th 2008, 08:37 PM
Please read the thread before posting... if your read post 2,8,9,11,13,15 it should address most of your questions / comments. Not being mean but it would be helpful so the same thing doesn't get stated several times...

I did, they didn't but it was humorous to notice you exclusively cite yourself.

Not to be mean but Psalm 150 wasn't quoted by anyone till me. I rechecked it was easy I use a mac has a great feature to do just that.

I am glad I posted what I did and would post it again.

uric3
Dec 17th 2008, 08:56 PM
I did, they didn't but it was humorous to notice you exclusively cite yourself.

Not to be mean but Psalm 150 wasn't quoted by anyone till me. I rechecked it was easy I use a mac has a great feature to do just that.

I am glad I posted what I did and would post it again.

:monkeyd:<--- I feel like a stupid monkey! When I typed that I was in a hurry, the post I was thinking of quoted psalm 140 rather than 150 and I thought that I had addressed it on one of my posts in some shape form or fashion was making the comment I had answered that in a previous post...

My apologizes and yeah I feel :blushsad: embarrassed and dumb right now... sorry about that... To bad they don't have a smiley with a dunce hat! LOL

Yukerboy
Dec 17th 2008, 09:17 PM
Matthew 5:17-19 Jesus says, "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven."

1 Corinthians 15:56 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=53&chapter=15&verse=56&version=31&context=verse)
The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law.

Galatians 5:18 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=55&chapter=5&verse=18&version=31&context=verse)
But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law.

Ephesians 2:15 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=56&chapter=2&verse=15&version=31&context=verse)
by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace,

1 Timothy 1:9 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=61&chapter=1&verse=9&version=31&context=verse)
We also know that law is made not for the righteous but for lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the unholy and irreligious; for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers,

What facts can we establish from these Scriptures?

1. The power of sin is the law. The law is the power of sin.
2. If you are Spirit led, you are no longer under law (the power of sin).
3. Christ did not come to abolish the law (the power of sin), therefore the law still stands.
4. The power of sin (the law) is made for the lawbreakers, not the righteous.
5. Christ did abolish the the power of sin (the law) in His flesh for those that are made righteous.

So, we can safely say that Christ did not lie. He did not abolish the law or the prophets, for the power of sin is still here. However, those who are saved are free from the power of sin and the law. Christ did abolish the power of sin for those He saves.

Yuke

Emanate
Dec 17th 2008, 09:35 PM
Please read the thread before posting... if your read post 2,8,9,11,13,15 it should address most of your questions / comments. Not being mean but it would be helpful so the same thing doesn't get stated several times...


that was mean :rofl:

Hanibal Texter
Dec 17th 2008, 11:18 PM
Would it be a sin then to use instruments in a church service? Thank You

uric3
Dec 18th 2008, 01:42 PM
Would it be a sin then to use instruments in a church service? Thank You

I'm not the judge by any means however when I read Matt 7:21-23 it makes me think twice about how I worship and what I do... because we see those who thought to be doing what God would have them do was just practicing lawlessness or without command. So all the things they were doing such as wonderful works, casting out demons etc wasn't pleasing to God at all and where rejected.

Thus since I can't find authority for it in the NT and know that the OT is done away with and I find no examples of the early church doing it. Then I would feel like if I implemented it then I too would be practicing lawlessness since I done something God didn't ask for in worship. I think from Matt 7:21-23 we can see that you can have good intentions and try to please God however if its not what he wanted then it was for not.

I think Uzzah is an excellent example of this in 1st Chron 13:8-9

"8 David and all the Israelites were celebrating with all their might before God, with songs and with harps, lyres, tambourines, cymbals and trumpets. 9 When they came to the threshing floor of Kidon, Uzzah reached out his hand to steady the ark, because the oxen stumbled. 10 The LORD's anger burned against Uzzah, and he struck him down because he had put his hand on the ark. So he died there before God."

The reason this happened was because they carried the ark on an ox cart... big no no... granted God didn't say "Thou shall not use an Ox cart" it was clearly stated to be carried by the tribe of levi only...

Most people would consider Uzzahs actions good and right after all he was just trying to protect the ark from falling when the oxen stumbled... but was struck dead regardless of his good intentions. For an ox cart was not what God ask for... nor anyone else to touch the ark but Levi...

So once again we see someone with good intentions but because it wasn't what God ask for they where punished.

So from that account and from the passage in Matt 7:21-23 I just do what God ask and that only for fear(respect) of what Gods wants. Not what I want because like anyone else I like the sound of a drum and the strum of a guitar... but I just do that on my own time when I worship God I do what he ask which is Sing.

Whispering Grace
Dec 18th 2008, 02:49 PM
They are part of the Old Law / OT which was done away according to Col 2:13-ff as well as 2 Cor 3:7-11 etc...

How do we know that Psalms is part of of the Old law?

John 10:34 "34Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your Law, 'I have said you are gods'?" The passage that Jesus is quoting is Psalm 82:6 and Jesus himself noted it as Jewish Law.

Note: I'm not stating the the OL / OT is useless obviously we can learn a lot from it... however we don't follow its laws and worship as they worshiped we follow the NT order of things now.

So in short yes the Psalms do not apply to the Christian as law either.

Can you explain to me why God would be pleased with instruments (and dance, etc) in the Old Testament for the worship of Him, and then in the New Testament, it's suddenly not acceptable?

The Psalms are quoted many times throughout the New Testament. That hardly makes the case that they do not apply to us.

tt1106
Dec 18th 2008, 02:51 PM
Sometimes when I worship, I drum on the chair back. :o

Whispering Grace
Dec 18th 2008, 02:53 PM
Without the Praise Band the service would be dull and boring.

If I never heard another musical note in church again, church would still never be "dull and boring" because Jesus Christ is never "dull and boring", nor is going to church to worship Him.

Honestly, if I needed music to get me pumped up about the Lord, I'd have reason to examine myself and my relationship with Him.

Church is about GOD, not music. It's about HIM, not us.

tt1106
Dec 18th 2008, 03:26 PM
I agree Whispering Grace, but I think there can be a distinction of preferences. I prefer contemporary music to hymns, but I still sing both.
It's just a personal preferences. Music does not make me feel any closer to God, than any other type of worship I engage in, whether that is reading my Bible, witnessing to unbelievers or prayer. either Way, I make God the center of it, the Holy Spirit does the rest.

-Blessings.

HisLeast
Dec 18th 2008, 03:40 PM
An old youth pastor of mine was a guitar phenom. I used to be jealous of him, that he could offer the fruits of his talents in praise so passionately. I can neither sing, nor play... so I worship as best I can. But pastor Andy.. he would toil for hours perfecting the craft of his guitar and then give the first fruit of it to God in praise.

Does God deserve any less than that?

kf4zmt
Dec 18th 2008, 03:56 PM
Okay I was going to stay out of this but I cant. I love music. I love the Praise Band at my church. Without the Praise Band the service would be dull and boring. Me and my kids love CCM and even my 10 yr old son is learning the electric guitar so he can play in the Praise Band this coming spring. Music is the spice of life without music there is no rhythm in life and it is mentioned in Psalms and Proverbs about how important music is. David played a harp and through the bible it talks of various instruments being played. I will also add that if I went to a church that did not have music that would be the last time I attend that church. Music ministers to the soul.

I think its important to understand that when we offer worship to God, we must offer what is acceptable to Him. Just because we like something (praise band, instrumental music, etc) does not mean that God finds it pleasing. Remember what Isaiah 55:8-9 says:

“ For My thoughts are not your thoughts,
Nor are your ways My ways,” says the LORD.
“ For as the heavens are higher than the earth,
So are My ways higher than your ways,
And My thoughts than your thoughts.

We must take care to study and understand what it is that pleases God in worship and offer that to him whether it pleases us or not. If we offer that which pleases us and originates from man then our worship is vain and useless. Jesus said that such is the case in Matthew 15:9

And in vain they worship Me, Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’”

uric3
Dec 18th 2008, 04:07 PM
Can you explain to me why God would be pleased with instruments (and dance, etc) in the Old Testament for the worship of Him, and then in the New Testament, it's suddenly not acceptable?

The Psalms are quoted many times throughout the New Testament. That hardly makes the case that they do not apply to us.


Many things changed. The priesthood changed. Animal sacrifices were eliminated. Dietary restrictions were lifted. Mandatory feast days were abolished. The very Law itself was changed (Heb 7:12). The list could go on and on.

One of the things God commanded under the OT was instrumental music in worship (2 Chron 29:25). Instrumental music is simply one more change that took place when the new covenant was established. The New Testament requires that we sing, but is silent about instruments. Silence doesn’t authorize anything (Heb 7:14). When one kind of thing is specified, it excludes all other similar kinds. For example, Noah was told to use gopher wood to build the ark. We know that God did not have to call out every other kind of wood and tell him not use them. When he specified gopher wood, he excluded oak, cedar, maple, pine, etc. Likewise, God has specified singing as the kind of music Christians are to use. This excluded any other kind of music (instrumental).

One other thing that is note worthy. Temple worship appealed as much to the outer man as the inner man. There was the sight of the bloody sacrifices, the smell of the incense and the sound of the instruments. The worship that God has commanded today only appeals to the spiritual side of us. The knowledge that Jesus is our sacrifice, the prayers that are a sweet smelling aroma to God, and the singing which comes not from instruments, but from the heart.

kf4zmt
Dec 18th 2008, 04:08 PM
... I have seen this argument, that in no way glorifies God, put forth so many times that it just makes me sick that it continues. I have also attended services in a Church of Christ assembly and still have no argument with them for their choice to exclude instruments from their services but when one becomes legalistic, as you are attempting here, you dishonor God and make Christianity the laughing stock of the world around us. In the Church that has been saved by grace alone, such legalism is completely out of place. We are commanded to worship in truth and in spirit and that will mean different things to different people. God did not roll out the human dough with His rolling pin to get it all even and uniform and then take his boy cookie cutter and His girl cookie cutter and cut us all from the same dough with the same cutter.
... Now, you alluded to the Old Testament being done away with in spite of the words of our Master that He had not done away with it but had instead completed the Law. If you are making the claim that you are a New Testament Christian I'll need to point out that except for the four Gospels there would be no New Testament without the Jewish Bible. Not only does twenty-three of the books use the Old Testament as the basis of their commentary but in the Gospels Jesus continually references the Old Testament. When He declared Himself to be Messiah he read the prophecy declaring His status from the old Testament.
... That you choose to glorify God by the voice alone is a good choice, for you. That I do so with my instrument is a good choice for me and neither one of us has the right to run around condemning the other for bringing Glory and Honor to God in their way because the case for both methods are drawn from God's Word.


th1bill (or anyone),
Can you tell me what you mean by being legalistic? I've seen a couple of people use this term and I'm not exactly sure what is meant by it. Could you (or anyone) elaborate on what is meant by legalism?

Bob Carabbio
Dec 18th 2008, 09:47 PM
The Campbellite genre "Non-Instrumental Church of Christ" is one Denominational group that actively teaches AGAINST the use of "mechanical instruments" in the worship service.

Col 3:16 IS one of the passages they use, and The Hard-Line Non-Instrumental Church of Christ (HLNICofC) IS one of the MOST "Legalistic" denominations going in Visible Christendom.

The HLNICofC, additionally, makes the claim that the OLD TEstament (where mechanical instrumentation IS used, and is, in fact classified as "Prophesy") is not germain to the discussion.

But it's all essentially an "arguement from silence" - i.e. that HLNICofC IS correct in stating that "mechanical instrumentation" IS NOT specifically mentioned in the NEW Testament. However that really proves ABSOLUTELY NOTHING, and one would ALSO have to demonstrate that God's "pleasure" and specification of musical instruments in worship in the Old Testament has become His "Displeasure" with all of the same in the New Testament.

In fact the HLNICofC legalism get SO intense that in some corners it's actually considered a "sin" to "hum" a hymn - since that's not "Singing" which demands proper elocution of the lyrics in praise to Him!!!

Since that can't be done the arguements are all moot.

Thankfully in the Dallas area, at least the growing majority opinion in the NICofC is that the "Non-Instrumental" belief is actually Only a "Tradition", and NOT a Biblical Imperative.

Max Lucado was in fact a "Non-instrumentalist" until he realized better, and led HIS church out of that restriction (and others).

Hanibal Texter
Dec 19th 2008, 03:08 AM
Ok let me see if I got this right, the bible does Not mention in the New Testament to use instruments or there is no scripture to say that any was used. So therefore to use instruments in todays praise and worship is contrary to what the early church did. So to do so would be against the order of the new testament. They are used in Heaven the Old Testament but not in todays services.
What about maybe it was not mentioned due to the fact say, a flute was used, it would be interpeted as only a flute could be used and therefore all others would be considered wrong. Just because something is not mentioned does not make it forbidden.

Also is it mentioned at what time of the day church should gather?
Also does it say where men and woman should sit or how long they should gather, or at what age a person should be baptized?


Here is a link that maybe is helpfull to others
http://www.layhands.com/AreInstrumentsAllowedInChurch.htm

I am still trying to figure it out.

kf4zmt
Dec 19th 2008, 02:12 PM
Ok let me see if I got this right, the bible does Not mention in the New Testament to use instruments or there is no scripture to say that any was used. So therefore to use instruments in todays praise and worship is contrary to what the early church did. So to do so would be against the order of the new testament. They are used in Heaven the Old Testament but not in todays services.
What about maybe it was not mentioned due to the fact say, a flute was used, it would be interpeted as only a flute could be used and therefore all others would be considered wrong. Just because something is not mentioned does not make it forbidden.

Also is it mentioned at what time of the day church should gather?
Also does it say where men and woman should sit or how long they should gather, or at what age a person should be baptized?


Here is a link that maybe is helpfull to others
http://www.layhands.com/AreInstrumentsAllowedInChurch.htm

I am still trying to figure it out.

Regarding the silence of the scriptures, consider Hebrews 7:12-14. Hebrews 7:14 actually makes an argument based on the silence of the scriptures.
12 For when there is a change of the priesthood, there must also be a change of the law. 13 He of whom these things are said belonged to a different tribe, and no one from that tribe has ever served at the altar. 14 For it is clear that our Lord descended from Judah, and in regard to that tribe Moses said nothing about priests.
The passage has under consideration the change of the priesthood (old Levitical priesthood to the priesthood of Jesus). Under the old law, Jesus could not serve as a high priest because he was not of the tribe of Levi. The Hebrew writer says that Jesus was of the tribe of Judah and that the scriptures said nothing (were silent) about priests coming from that tribe. Therefore, in order for Jesus to be a high priest, the law had to be changed and it was when the new covenant went into effect.

The Hebrew writer argues that authority cannot be derived for doing a thing when the Bible is silent about it.

Regarding your other questions about what time of day the church is to meet, where to sit, etc., we are simply commanded to assemble (Hebrews 10:25). Therefore, we have general authority to meet with no specific command regarding time of day. The time of day is therefore left up to us. Where to sit is left up to us.

uric3
Dec 19th 2008, 02:14 PM
Ok let me see if I got this right, the bible does Not mention in the New Testament to use instruments or there is no scripture to say that any was used. So therefore to use instruments in todays praise and worship is contrary to what the early church did. So to do so would be against the order of the new testament. They are used in Heaven the Old Testament but not in todays services.
What about maybe it was not mentioned due to the fact say, a flute was used, it would be interpeted as only a flute could be used and therefore all others would be considered wrong. Just because something is not mentioned does not make it forbidden.

Also is it mentioned at what time of the day church should gather?
Also does it say where men and woman should sit or how long they should gather, or at what age a person should be baptized?


Here is a link that maybe is helpfull to others
http://www.layhands.com/AreInstrumentsAllowedInChurch.htm

I am still trying to figure it out.

Interesting Article however I disagree with his conclusion for one reason and I disagree with what was nailed to the cross as well as some other things. Reason being is several times in the NT Christ notes it as their Law. As I pointed out earlier in John 10:34 Christ quotes Psalms as the Law. Also if you only ignored the first five books and took everything else you'd still be offering animal sacrifice... however I don't want to derail the thread so I won't go to far into detail here... however I'll just state that the entire OT was abolished including Psalms.

As for a meeting time there is really no set time that I know of... however we know according to Acts 20:7 we see they met on the 1st day of the week. We also see in 1st Cor 16:1-2 upon the first day of the week we are to lay by him in store. So we know its the first day of the week and we know also from 20:7 that Paul preached until Midnight... however I am unaware of any set time to assemble.

As for your second question I know of no passages that show or command men or women to sit in a certain place... nor an age at which one is held accountable.

In my opinion however I think men or women can sit where they please... we are commanded to assemble so as long as they are assembled and ready to worship would you even need to sit? You could stand if you wanted I suppose as long as your not disruptive... however depending on culture there could be cultural rules that apply... such as in India women sit on the left while men are on the right... why they do that I don't know... Just as in Japan a woman can't walk beside of or infront of a man... must be behind...

As for an age my opinion is its different for each person because we all mature and understand at different ages... so I think its when you have a clear understanding of right and wrong and how one is expected to act.

If these questions are related to music then I'll conclude with this... in these two questions we can't find any clear cut answer for... so its a matter of opinion or culture... as for music in worship we see clear cut in the NT all we can find it singing nothing more... so to go above that would be adding to what God ask.

kf4zmt
Dec 19th 2008, 02:35 PM
The Campbellite genre "Non-Instrumental Church of Christ" is one Denominational group that actively teaches AGAINST the use of "mechanical instruments" in the worship service.

Col 3:16 IS one of the passages they use, and The Hard-Line Non-Instrumental Church of Christ (HLNICofC) IS one of the MOST "Legalistic" denominations going in Visible Christendom.

The HLNICofC, additionally, makes the claim that the OLD TEstament (where mechanical instrumentation IS used, and is, in fact classified as "Prophesy") is not germain to the discussion.

But it's all essentially an "arguement from silence" - i.e. that HLNICofC IS correct in stating that "mechanical instrumentation" IS NOT specifically mentioned in the NEW Testament. However that really proves ABSOLUTELY NOTHING, and one would ALSO have to demonstrate that God's "pleasure" and specification of musical instruments in worship in the Old Testament has become His "Displeasure" with all of the same in the New Testament.

In fact the HLNICofC legalism get SO intense that in some corners it's actually considered a "sin" to "hum" a hymn - since that's not "Singing" which demands proper elocution of the lyrics in praise to Him!!!

Since that can't be done the arguements are all moot.

Thankfully in the Dallas area, at least the growing majority opinion in the NICofC is that the "Non-Instrumental" belief is actually Only a "Tradition", and NOT a Biblical Imperative.

Max Lucado was in fact a "Non-instrumentalist" until he realized better, and led HIS church out of that restriction (and others).

I went to the source of all accurate knowledge (wikipedia.com) ;) to get a definition for legalism:
Legalism, in Christian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity) theology (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theology), is a pejorative term referring to an over-emphasis on law or codes of conduct, or legal ideas, usually implying an allegation of misguided rigor, pride, superficiality, the neglect of mercy, and ignorance of the grace of God (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Divine_grace) or emphasizing the letter of law over the spirit (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Letter_and_spirit_of_the_law). Legalism is alleged against any view that obedience to law, not faith in God's grace, is the pre-eminent principle of redemption.
If the motivation for using non-instrumental music is a result of over emphasizing the letter of the law, then I'd agree that it is probably legalistic. On the other hand, if people worship God only using singing because they believe from the scriptures that this is what pleases God, then how is that legalism?

Again, in worship to God, we must offer what pleases Him. All too often people offer worship that pleases them.

mikebr
Dec 19th 2008, 02:41 PM
Who created music?

uric3
Dec 19th 2008, 03:00 PM
Who created music?

I would answer God considering he gave us the knowledge and wisdom to create \ build interments and play them. As well as giving us a voice to sing for God created us...

However who created drugs... what about pot plants? If I understand where you are going with this can we take drugs during services?

Just because we have the know how due to the knowledge God gives us doesn't make it right.

Jamey
Dec 20th 2008, 03:27 AM
First, the disclaimer: I am a member of a church of Christ that does not use musical instruments. This issue is never really brought up with other members.
We all listen to music with inst. just not during worship.
Second, I was not raised in the faith. I have been to other churches that use "praise and worship" teams.

Here is my take.

First the non-instrumentals:
True there is no mention of musical instruments in the N.T. And since it seems the view of the Restoration movement is "where the Bible is silent, we are silent", we don't use them. Ok, well neither is electricity, pulpits, church buildings etc. Yet we have no problem using them.
Now there is plenty in scripture that describes how the NT church worshipped.

Sold their possessions and distributed amongst themselves (Acts 2:45, Acts4:34) Do we do that?
They worshipped daily in temple and house (Acts5:42)
These are just a couple of many things they did in the NT that we don't do.

So while we champion the "where the Bible is silent, we are silent", and criticize others that don't hold to this point of view, are we being hypocrites for not being "where the Bible is vocal, we are vocal"?

Now to the instrumentals:

Yes, instruments were used in the OT. But as someone said before, so was alot of things like:
I won't list passages for their is too many (and I"m getting that "look" from the wife who is wanting to check her email )

incense
animal sacrifice
keeping the Sabbath holy
stoning
using the laver
not touching unclean things

So if you want to use the O.T. pattern, are you being a hypocrite for not using all of the O.T.

Here is my thoughts on the subject:

When I worshipped in a congregation that had instruments, I was appalled at the term "praise and worship" team. I thought the whole congregation was to be praising and worshipping.
I heard comments like " The music was great today" or " The band was a little off"
We actually had someone who was paid a salary for being the Praise and Worship team leader.
Was more like a concert (people watching) than something that everyone was participating in.

Now that I'm worshipping without instruments:

I am part of the Praise and Worship team, even though I can't play anything and my voice (according to my wife) is something to be desired, God don't care. He hears my heart.
Wed. nights involve the young men ages 6-18 each taking turns getting up to lead us in a song. Not sure that can be done with a band.
One wed night after our teaching, we had a young lady who wanted to be baptized. Most of the congregation had left, but there was about 12 of us still around. While she was in the back getting ready, someone started singing. We all joined in and before it was over, everyone was in tears. Absolutely beautiful. No band to warm up.

Now these are only a few reasons why I prefer no musical instruments in my worship. Notice no Bible references. That's because there are none. To say one way is right and the other way is wrong without a reference from Scripture is "adding" to it. Also, saying one is "bored" at worship may need to search their heart to see why they are worshipping in the first place.
These all ofcourse are just MHO.
I will leave with just one passage that I think references this topic
Matthew 23:24:
Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel.

Your brother in Christ,
J.

HisLeast
Dec 20th 2008, 03:45 AM
Damned (in the theological sense) if one does. Damned if one doesn't.

kf4zmt
Dec 22nd 2008, 03:25 PM
Damned (in the theological sense) if one does. Damned if one doesn't.

Not really. Everyone that I have ever spoken with about the subject believes that non-instrumental music is scriptural. The controversy is about instruments being added to the worship.

There is general agreement that a cappella is "safe". Therefore, we are not "damned" if we don't.

teddyv
Dec 22nd 2008, 04:35 PM
Not really. Everyone that I have ever spoken with about the subject believes that non-instrumental music is scriptural. The controversy is about instruments being added to the worship.

There is general agreement that a cappella is "safe". Therefore, we are not "damned" if we don't.

I somehow doubt that using/not using instruments while singing in church is a salvific issue.



At the risk of a derail, how common is it to have a worship team that is the only singers/players during a service? Coming from a Dutch background and Reformed tradition it's pretty hard to stop the congregation from singing.

superwoman8977
Dec 22nd 2008, 07:44 PM
Thank you but I dont need to re-examine anything. I love music, music is the spice of life and I was the worship leader back home at my hometown church, I was also involved in the choir and the handbell choir and the praise team. The praise team's job is to lead the church family in worship. Without music in a service, no I couldnt stand it because I grew up with it being a part of the worship service from when I was a kid singing songs out of the hymnal to now as I get older being part of the praise and worship. If there is no music I will not attend that church. Even at home before I do devotions I usually have a praise and worship CD on that gets me in the spirit and helps to open my heart to what the Lord has to say. We have a song that we sing enititled "I am Free" I love that song because we have this older woman that gets up whenever that song is sung and dances around the sanctuary with her arms in the air outstretched, praising the Lord. Music just puts joy in my heart.

uric3
Dec 22nd 2008, 08:42 PM
Thank you but I dont need to re-examine anything. I love music, music is the spice of life and I was the worship leader back home at my hometown church, I was also involved in the choir and the handbell choir and the praise team. The praise team's job is to lead the church family in worship. Without music in a service, no I couldnt stand it because I grew up with it being a part of the worship service from when I was a kid singing songs out of the hymnal to now as I get older being part of the praise and worship. If there is no music I will not attend that church. Even at home before I do devotions I usually have a praise and worship CD on that gets me in the spirit and helps to open my heart to what the Lord has to say. We have a song that we sing enititled "I am Free" I love that song because we have this older woman that gets up whenever that song is sung and dances around the sanctuary with her arms in the air outstretched, praising the Lord. Music just puts joy in my heart.
As I posted before in an earlier post. I'll post it one more time concerning this.

Now, that one I have no answer for. I simply cannot respond to anyone who says, "I am doing this because I like it. I do not have any desire to find Bible authority. I do not care what God's Word says. I know I like this and I am going to do it." What can one say about that kind of attitude. About all I can say
is, "Does the Lord like it?" If you say, "Yes," I ask, How do you know? Has He told you? Has He given you some special revelation? Just how do you know that the Lord approves of it? If He has not told you, and no where do you find it in His Book, are you not taking a big chance on eternity to stand before Jehovah with the excuse, "I did that because I liked it"?

In your post you already stated. "I love music... without music I couldn't stand it... If there is no music I will not attend... Music puts joy in my heart...

I notice a lot of I's and My's in there... who are you trying to please God or yourself? By reading your own post its obvious... thats why there are so many different churches today...

RabbiKnife
Dec 22nd 2008, 09:02 PM
If instruments are not allowed in worship, then someone had better warn God to get those things out of heaven before I get there.

:mad:

According to Paul, I can beat trash can lids together and blow a WhoTrumpet for the glory of God...

uric3
Dec 22nd 2008, 10:30 PM
If instruments are not allowed in worship, then someone had better warn God to get those things out of heaven before I get there.

:mad:

According to Paul, I can beat trash can lids together and blow a WhoTrumpet for the glory of God...

Thanks for your post RabbiKnife... can you please tell where where Paul states that we can do these things to the glory of God?

Also when you say there are instruments in heaven where is that in scripture and please explain how that ok's instruments in worship today. Thanks

crawfish
Dec 22nd 2008, 11:20 PM
I grew up in the non-instrumental church of Christ, and now I attend an instrumental church of Christ (actually, we have both instrumental and non-instrumental services). I haven't believed that instruments were "wrong" since I was a young teenager, but have been uncomfortable with them in worship until a few years ago. I did a lot of study on why the NICOC believes the way it does on this issue, and it was quite enlightening. I'll share a few of my findings here.

First, it is true that there was a dearth of instruments in the early church, for two reasons: first, instruments were not something that everybody owned, and 2) they were typically connected with pagan rituals. The early church spurned them in an effort to distance themselves from those cults. They were not added back on any large scale for centuries when this was no longer an issue.

Second: the CofC is very keen on the subject of "authorization". Namely, everything in worship must be authorized through scripture, and nothing not authorized should be allowed. They use Colossians 3:17 to support this idea (you'll have to look it up for a complete justification, I don't have time here). They allow some things that aren't explicitly allowed through an "expediency clause" justified by 1 Cor. 6:12. Essentially, things that add effiiency but don't affect worship overall are justified. (For the record, this is the big gray area that forces me to reject the implicit theology. Judging things expedient or not is quite subjective, IMO.)

Third: The prohibition of instruments has other explanations, and I believe it was really used to justify behavior that was already present in CofC congregations. The Restoration movement (of which CofC, Christian Churches and Disciples of Christ all sprung from) were split among the north and south during the civil war. The latter two were primarily in the north and consisted of wealthy or middle-class congregations, while the former was primarily in the south and very much poor. The latter did not have a piano mostly because of budgetary constraints; they could not afford one. The civil war caused a huge split bewtewen the two factions, especially as the northern congregations decided to officially align themselves with the union. The split proved permanent, and over time the non-instrumentalism of the south CofC's became their differentiating factor, and by the early 1900's they had developed a theological justification.

As mentioned earlier in this thread, all CofC's do not hold to the unscripturalness of instrumental music, and a significant portion of its members who do attend NICOC congregations do not believe it is sinful.

I appreciate the CofC for its dedication to study and independent thought. I think that is one place where it shines. I also appreciate the fact of its autonomous nature, so that the negative attributes mentioned by me and others in this thread do not permeate the entire group. I do think most CofC people are moving away from the hardline stance, and those who still hold it are a shrinking minority.

superwoman8977
Dec 23rd 2008, 03:19 AM
If instruments are not allowed in worship, then someone had better warn God to get those things out of heaven before I get there.

:mad:

According to Paul, I can beat trash can lids together and blow a WhoTrumpet for the glory of God...


Amen...:ppThere are plenty of verses in Psalms that talk about music and how it can be sung to Him and I firmly believe that the Lord approves of our music in our church.

superwoman8977
Dec 23rd 2008, 03:23 AM
As I posted before in an earlier post. I'll post it one more time concerning this.

Now, that one I have no answer for. I simply cannot respond to anyone who says, "I am doing this because I like it. I do not have any desire to find Bible authority. I do not care what God's Word says. I know I like this and I am going to do it." What can one say about that kind of attitude. About all I can say
is, "Does the Lord like it?" If you say, "Yes," I ask, How do you know? Has He told you? Has He given you some special revelation? Just how do you know that the Lord approves of it? If He has not told you, and no where do you find it in His Book, are you not taking a big chance on eternity to stand before Jehovah with the excuse, "I did that because I liked

In your post you already stated. "I love music... without music I couldn't stand it... If there is no music I will not attend... Music puts joy in my heart..
I notice a lot of I's and My's in there... who are you trying to please God or yourself? By reading your own post its obvious... thats why there are so many different churches today...


I sing so I can sing to my Lord. I play my cello to the Lord. When I am up on that stage at church singing I am singing to Jesus sitting in the 3rd row, there are actually times I can see him there right there with a smile on his face. I have to ask how do you have a service with no music? It would be so monontonous I mean I really dont see the spirit moving with no music.

th1bill
Dec 23rd 2008, 05:33 AM
Not really. Everyone that I have ever spoken with about the subject believes that non-instrumental music is scriptural. The controversy is about instruments being added to the worship.

There is general agreement that a cappella is "safe". Therefore, we are not "damned" if we don't.
And of course the truth of the matter is that as soon as you step out of The Church of Chridst movement there is no controvercy and the only time it becomes a problem is when one of you folks go nova and start teaching your particular form of legalism.

GitRDunn
Dec 23rd 2008, 08:40 AM
I understand what you are stating however that isn't part of worship and oil lamp and a bulb do the same job they are just a light so we can see to worship.

I guess if studying a lesson for Sunday school off of paper isn't how we can share scripture we shouldn't have the Bible since they didn't have Bibles... its a piece of paper with Bible verses on it... no change in worship.

For the heating same as the fire places they used to keep warm... no change in worship...

Instruments Psalm 82:6 Instruments do change worship God ask for singing... and singing only why would God want a man made instruments for praise when he created each and every one a voice to praise him with...

We are all commanded to sing. Eph 5:19 and Col 3:16 so if you take those passages to include interments then shouldn't everyone have an interments? To fulfill what the verse ask for which is for everyone to do it?

Its obvious that it isn't talking about instruments because as pointed out they never even entered into worship until 666AD also no terms in those passages deal with instruments in anyway...

So where in the NT do you have an example, a command or it even inferred they were used during NT worship...

The answer is you can't... if you could I would pick up my drum set and go for it because I want to do exactly what God ask of me. Thus I don't go beyond what God wants me to do so I can please him.
So, just because it doesn't talk about instruments they are wrong? I think that if God really didn't like instruments he would've made sure it got mentioned somewhere in the Bible (which I believe is His Word and is exactly how He wants it), so if he didn't I doubt that he is majorly upset by the use of instruments. And it isn't just a time difference, because instruments were around (even if not used in services) at that time, so it would've been relevant. In your verses all it does is say to sing, but it doesn't say to not use instruments. In another light, you could look at it like this: You are correct, these verses tell us to sing and the majority of the time people are able to sing better with instruments because it can help them to stay on key, not let it go flat or sharp, etc., so if it helps to facilitate the singing, aren't instruments encouraged by these verses?

P.S.- Sorry, I know this was an earlier post but I haven't had time to read the whole thread yet.

Whispering Grace
Dec 23rd 2008, 03:21 PM
It would be so monontonous I mean I really dont see the spirit moving with no music.

Do you honestly believe the Holy Spirit will only move in a church when there is music? Is that the only way He moves in your life?

Honestly, I'd be very concerned if the only time I experienced the moving of the Spirit was during music. I'd have to check myself and make certain it wasn't emotionalism I was experiencing instead of a genuine move of the Holy Spirit.

Whispering Grace
Dec 23rd 2008, 03:25 PM
I notice a lot of I's and My's in there...

That is right, and it's the reason so many churches are in the sad state they are in today.

kf4zmt
Dec 23rd 2008, 03:53 PM
So, just because it doesn't talk about instruments they are wrong? I think that if God really didn't like instruments he would've made sure it got mentioned somewhere in the Bible (which I believe is His Word and is exactly how He wants it), so if he didn't I doubt that he is majorly upset by the use of instruments. And it isn't just a time difference, because instruments were around (even if not used in services) at that time, so it would've been relevant. In your verses all it does is say to sing, but it doesn't say to not use instruments. In another light, you could look at it like this: You are correct, these verses tell us to sing and the majority of the time people are able to sing better with instruments because it can help them to stay on key, not let it go flat or sharp, etc., so if it helps to facilitate the singing, aren't instruments encouraged by these verses?

P.S.- Sorry, I know this was an earlier post but I haven't had time to read the whole thread yet.

If you go back and read the story of Noah and the flood, you'll notice that God didn't mention anything about oak, maple, pine, etc. When he specified that Noah was to use gopher wood to build the ark, He automatically excluded every other kind of wood. He didn't have to say, "Thou shalt not use oak, pine, etc". When you go to the ice cream store and order vanilla ice cream, you don't have to tell the person behind the counter all the flavors you don't want. It is understood that when you specify one kind of thing, all other similar kinds are automatically excluded.

Similarly, when God specified in the New Testament that we are to sing, that excludes all other kinds of music.

kf4zmt
Dec 23rd 2008, 04:01 PM
And of course the truth of the matter is that as soon as you step out of The Church of Chridst movement there is no controvercy and the only time it becomes a problem is when one of you folks go nova and start teaching your particular form of legalism.

th1bill,
You never did tell me what your definition of legalism is.

kf4zmt
Dec 23rd 2008, 04:15 PM
I somehow doubt that using/not using instruments while singing in church is a salvific issue.



At the risk of a derail, how common is it to have a worship team that is the only singers/players during a service? Coming from a Dutch background and Reformed tradition it's pretty hard to stop the congregation from singing.

When we offer God worship, we should be fully confident that it is something that pleases Him. Consider Matthew 7:21-23...
21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

Notice that just because we claim to do something that honors God, that doesn't mean that He is honored by it or pleased with it. He says that some of these people claim to offer religious service in His name but will be told, "I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness".

Lawlessness simply means "without law". In the context of this discussion, what "law" do Christians have authorizing instrumental music in worship to God? If we do something for which we have no law, are we not practicing lawlessness? The passage also states that only those who do the will of the father will enter the kingdom of heaven.

Moses wasn't allowed to enter the Promised Land because he did what most of us would consider a small thing. He struck the rock instead of speaking to it and in the process dishonored God. So here is the basic question; are we willing to risk God being displeased with us just so we can enjoy our instruments? I for one am not willing to take that risk.

teddyv
Dec 23rd 2008, 04:29 PM
When we offer God worship, we should be fully confident that it is something that pleases Him. Consider Matthew 7:21-23...

21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

Notice that just because we claim to do something that honors God, that doesn't mean that He is honored by it or pleased with it. He says that some of these people claim to offer religious service in His name but will be told, "I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness".

Lawlessness simply means "without law". In the context of this discussion, what "law" do Christians have authorizing instrumental music in worship to God? If we do something for which we have no law, are we not practicing lawlessness? The passage also states that only those who do the will of the father will enter the kingdom of heaven.

Moses wasn't allowed to enter the Promised Land because he did what most of us would consider a small thing. He struck the rock instead of speaking to it and in the process dishonored God. So here is the basic question; are we willing to risk God being displeased with us just so we can enjoy our instruments? I for one am not willing to take that risk.
Are you equivocating prophecy, casting out demons and performing miracles with the use of musical instruments in a worship service as accompaniment with psalms and hymns offered to God?

kf4zmt
Dec 23rd 2008, 04:31 PM
I sing so I can sing to my Lord. I play my cello to the Lord. When I am up on that stage at church singing I am singing to Jesus sitting in the 3rd row, there are actually times I can see him there right there with a smile on his face. I have to ask how do you have a service with no music? It would be so monontonous I mean I really dont see the spirit moving with no music.

I wonder how Christians in the first 600+ years of the church managed to get by without instruments? Hmmm.

th1bill
Dec 23rd 2008, 04:32 PM
th1bill,
You never did tell me what your definition of legalism is.
... And once again the old man sits back and chuckles but just the same he answers the rather lame attempt to dance around or to skirt the issue.
... Rather than to define I find a much more profitable to deal with which you have done. You have circumvented the Bible, ie. the Old Testament, and have elevated the commentary on it, ie. the New Testament, to a rather lofty position over it. You then required everyone else to do the same in order to be on your level, that's being legalistic. You further more have sent the rest of us off to a much lower position, in the scheem of things. Since you are not our Heavenly Father nor the olny begotten Son, that is legalism. The very moment you assumed yourself to be and presented yourself as the authority you fell into fault because of the legalism.

kf4zmt
Dec 23rd 2008, 04:34 PM
Are you equivocating prophecy, casting out demons and performing miracles with the use of musical instruments in a worship service as accompaniment with psalms and hymns offered to God?

No, I think Jesus is saying that whatever good we may do is nullified if we act lawlessly in other areas. Anything we do without God's authority is lawlessness. It could be instrumental music or anything else that we do that is not according to God's will. Matthew 15:9 says:

And in vain they worship Me, Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.

Our service to God is useless if we mix it with the commandments of men.

kf4zmt
Dec 23rd 2008, 04:38 PM
... And once again the old man sits back and chuckles but just the same he answers the rather lame attempt to dance around or to skirt the issue.
... Rather than to define I find a much more profitable to deal with which you have done. You have circumvented the Bible, ie. the Old Testament, and have elevated the commentary on it, ie. the New Testament, to a rather lofty position over it. You then required everyone else to do the same in order to be on your level, that's being legalistic. You further more have sent the rest of us off to a much lower position, in the scheem of things. Since you are not our Heavenly Father nor the olny begotten Son, that is legalism. The very moment you assumed yourself to be and presented yourself as the authority you fell into fault because of the legalism.


I don't recall demanding or requiring anyone else to do what I do. I also don't recall claiming to be in a position of authority. Perhaps you have me confused with someone else. How others choose to worship is a personal choice and is between them and God. I'm just sharing my viewpoint of the scriptures on this topic. Isn't that what this discussion forum is for?

teddyv
Dec 23rd 2008, 04:44 PM
I don't recall demanding or requiring anyone else to do what I do. I also don't recall claiming to be in a position of authority. Perhaps you have me confused with someone else. How others choose to worship is a personal choice and is between them and God. I'm just sharing my viewpoint of the scriptures on this topic. Isn't that what this discussion forum is for?
According to your words, if there is no explicit authority from God it is lawlessness. You find no explicit authority from the NT for the use of instruments, therefore is must be lawlessness. Therefore by default any church using instrumentation must be displeasing to God. I don't know how else I can take it.

kf4zmt
Dec 23rd 2008, 05:04 PM
According to your words, if there is no explicit authority from God it is lawlessness. You find no explicit authority from the NT for the use of instruments, therefore is must be lawlessness. Therefore by default any church using instrumentation must be displeasing to God. I don't know how else I can take it.

Based on my study of the scripture, I have indeed concluded that it is lawlessness. Therefore I choose not to join with any congregation where instruments are used.

Could I be wrong? Of course! Over the years I have had to change my position on quite a number of scriptural matters due to a better understanding of the Bible. These changes didn't occur because of my "think so's" but rather based on what the Bible says.

If someone can show me using valid reasoning from the scriptures that I have missed the point, I'll admit it. Finding out I am wrong about something is not a defeat, it is a victory for it means I have shed one more inaccurate notion!

Until I am persuaded otherwise, I think the safe thing to do is to abstain from the use of instruments. How does this mean that I demand this choice from everyone else?

crawfish
Dec 23rd 2008, 06:40 PM
Until I am persuaded otherwise, I think the safe thing to do is to abstain from the use of instruments. How does this mean that I demand this choice from everyone else?

I think scripture is clear that if you have trouble with something you should not do it. The problem would be trying to push such things on others.

Me, I prefer a capella since it's what I was raised with. But I understand that it's less than inspiring to some people, and that's fine.

Chimon
Dec 23rd 2008, 07:43 PM
Theres nothing wrong with using instruments to worship God, we know this because the Bible encourages us to praise God with musical instruments:

Sing aloud to God our strength;
shout for joy to the God of Jacob!
Raise a song; sound the tambourine,
the sweet lyre with the harp.
Blow the trumpet at the new moon,
at the full moon, on our feast day.

(Psalm 81.)

Theophilus
Dec 23rd 2008, 07:51 PM
...If someone can show me using valid reasoning from the scriptures that I have missed the point, I'll admit it. Finding out I am wrong about something is not a defeat, it is a victory for it means I have shed one more inaccurate notion!

Colossians 3:16 says: Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.

NT scripture tells us to teach using psalms...several of which clearly say to use instruments while praising the Lord. (e.g., 33, 81, 150)

Why would you teach someone how to praise from a psalm that says to use instruments, and then deny them the opportunity to use those instruments?

What does the very next verse say?

17 And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him.

So, if you've been taught from scripture, specifically one of the psalms that says to use an instrument in your praise to the Lord, and you then sing a song accompanied by an instrument in praise to the Lord...and you do this in the name of the Lord Jesus, while giving thanks to God and the Father by him...that's lawlessness? :o

The New Testament does not exclude instruments, and in the overarching view of the Bible, instruments were used in worship to the Lord.

God doesn't change, and His taste in music hasn't changed, either. If it was acceptable then, it's acceptable now, or we would have been given clear direction to avoid instrumental music in our worship. Psalms are not Hebrew Old Covenant law: they're songs! Not a bunch of commandments we must follow, but teaching and praise in the form of songs.



Based on my study of the scripture, I have indeed concluded that it [the use of instruments in worship] is lawlessness. Therefore I choose not to join with any congregation where instruments are used...Until I am persuaded otherwise, I think the safe thing to do is to abstain from the use of instruments. How does this mean that I demand this choice from everyone else?

So based on what you're saying, we can draw a conclusion that I'll put in a syllogistic form:

Worship using instruments is lawlessness.
Lawlessness is sin.
Ultimately, sinners go to hell.

You may not demand we abstain from the use of instruments, but based on your study of the scripture, if we don't line up with what you believe, our eternal outlook is not a good one.

kf4zmt
Dec 23rd 2008, 08:04 PM
Theres nothing wrong with using instruments to worship God, we know this because the Bible encourages us to praise God with musical instruments:

Sing aloud to God our strength;
shout for joy to the God of Jacob!
Raise a song; sound the tambourine,
the sweet lyre with the harp.
Blow the trumpet at the new moon,
at the full moon, on our feast day.

(Psalm 81.)

The Old Testament (including Psalms) is not binding upon Christians. The old covenant was between God and the nation of Israel. Today we are bound by the New Testament. I think this distinction between the OT & NT was covered by someone else in an earlier post so I won't go into it again here.

kf4zmt
Dec 23rd 2008, 08:39 PM
Colossians 3:16 says: Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.

NT scripture tells us to teach using psalms...several of which clearly say to use instruments while praising the Lord. (e.g., 33, 81, 150)

Why would you teach someone how to praise from a psalm that says to use instruments, and then deny them the opportunity to use those instruments?

What does the very next verse say?

17 And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him.

So, if you've been taught from scripture, specifically one of the psalms that says to use an instrument in your praise to the Lord, and you then sing a song accompanied by an instrument in praise to the Lord...and you do this in the name of the Lord Jesus, while giving thanks to God and the Father by him...that's lawlessness? :o


If the word "psalms" necessarily implies the use of an instrument as you suggest, then we haven't obeyed the command unless EVERY worshiper of God both sings AND plays an instrument. Does everyone at your church play an instrument in worship to God? If not, then those who only sing haven't obeyed the command.


The New Testament does not exclude instruments, and in the overarching view of the Bible, instruments were used in worship to the Lord.

God doesn't change, and His taste in music hasn't changed, either. If it was acceptable then, it's acceptable now, or we would have been given clear direction to avoid instrumental music in our worship. Psalms are not Hebrew Old Covenant law: they're songs! Not a bunch of commandments we must follow, but teaching and praise in the form of songs.

By this logic, we should still be offering animal sacrifices, burning incense, submitting to dietary restrictions, observing the OT feast days, etc. If we are going to keep part of the law (instrumental music) then we are obliged to keep all of the law as Galatians 5:3 says.

Jesus said that the psalms were part of the law. In John 10:34 Jesus said, "...Is it not written in your law..." and then quotes from Psalms 82:6. If Jesus says that the book of Psalms was part of the Law, who am I to argue?


So based on what you're saying, we can draw a conclusion that I'll put in a syllogistic form:

Worship using instruments is lawlessness.
Lawlessness is sin.
Ultimately, sinners go to hell.

You may not demand we abstain from the use of instruments, but based on your study of the scripture, if we don't line up with what you believe, our eternal outlook is not a good one.

Ultimately this will be God's decision. I will not say that people who use instrumental music will be lost because that is "whittling on God's end of the stick". What I am saying is that I don't think using instrumental music is a safe course of action. Everyone else can go on and do what they want in this matter, but as for me, I'll take the approach that I feel is the safe one. You are correct in that I don't think the "eternal outlook is a good one". If I thought it was the sharp thing to do, I'd be doing it myself.

Whispering Grace
Dec 23rd 2008, 09:16 PM
You are correct in that I don't think the "eternal outlook is a good one".

So I am saved by singing a capella in church? Is that seriously what you are asserting here?

th1bill
Dec 23rd 2008, 09:21 PM
I don't recall demanding or requiring anyone else to do what I do. I also don't recall claiming to be in a position of authority. Perhaps you have me confused with someone else. How others choose to worship is a personal choice and is between them and God. I'm just sharing my viewpoint of the scriptures on this topic. Isn't that what this discussion forum is for?
... When I read your message it seemed very implicit to me.

th1bill
Dec 23rd 2008, 09:30 PM
The Old Testament (including Psalms) is not binding upon Christians. The old covenant was between God and the nation of Israel. Today we are bound by the New Testament. I think this distinction between the OT & NT was covered by someone else in an earlier post so I won't go into it again here.
... You see what I mean, you are speaking implicitly and the implication is that you are speaking in the name of the LORD. That is the legal mind set of which I spoke. Jesus was very detailed in His speech when He spoke of completing and not displacing the Law of the Old Testament and never do I see Him or Paul for that matter dismissing the Old Testament. And then you are the only one requiring that we be bound by the New Testament. In the Writtings of Paul we find that we now have the freedom to obey our LORD.

Theophilus
Dec 23rd 2008, 09:39 PM
If the word "psalms" necessarily implies the use of an instrument as you suggest, then we haven't obeyed the command unless EVERY worshiper of God both sings AND plays an instrument. Does everyone at your church play an instrument in worship to God? If not, then those who only sing haven't obeyed the command.

....but I already said, the Psalms are not commands, they are songs...songs which Paul has said to use in teaching. A Psalm is NOT part of "The Law". Check out Luke 24:44, as Christ speaks to "the Eleven":

44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.

The Psalms are distinct from the Law, as are the writings of the Prophets.

The psalm/song teaches us not the we must play an instrument (as a command), but that instruments are used in praise to God...and are therefore acceptable to Him.


By this logic, we should still be offering animal sacrifices, burning incense, submitting to dietary restrictions, observing the OT feast days, etc. If we are going to keep part of the law (instrumental music) then we are obliged to keep all of the law as Galatians 5:3 says.

...as the Lucan scripture I referenced shows, the law and the psalms are distinct from one another, so we're not talking apples and apples, but apples and oranges. The Psalms do not command us to use instruments, they only teach us that instruments are an acceptable avenue of praise.


Jesus said that the psalms were part of the law. In John 10:34 Jesus said, "...Is it not written in your law..." and then quotes from Psalms 82:6. If Jesus says that the book of Psalms was part of the Law, who am I to argue?

The greek word (nomos - Strong's G3551) translated as "law" is defined in Thayer's lexicon thusly:

1) anything established, anything received by usage, a custom, a law, a command
a) of any law whatsoever
1) a law or rule producing a state approved of God
a) by the observance of which is approved of God
2) a precept or injunction
3) the rule of action prescribed by reason
b) of the Mosaic law, and referring, acc. to the context. either to the volume of the law or to its contents
c) the Christian religion: the law demanding faith, the moral instruction given by Christ, esp. the precept concerning love
d) the name of the more important part (the Pentateuch), is put for the entire collection of the sacred books of the OT

Thus "nomos" often means the law, but it can also mean the whole Old Testament, or it can mean anything established, or received by usage...which would again mean "the Scriptures."

If that doesn't convince you, check out Paul's usage of the word in 1 Corinthians 14:21, where Paul refers to a verse in Isaiah (28:11): In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord.

And here's the corresponding verse in Isaiah, just for comparison: For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.


Jesus says that the Old Testament is comprised of the law, the prophets, and psalms. Isaiah is not part of "The Law"...It's/he's part of "The Prophets." As I said, this just lends further credence that nomos can mean all of the (OT) Scriptures, not just the law of Moses. But, Mosaic Law and Psalms are distinct, as I've already addressed...so, the whole Old Testament is not just lumped uncategorically into "the Law."


Ultimately this will be God's decision. I will not say that people who use instrumental music will be lost because that is "whittling on God's end of the stick". What I am saying is that I don't think using instrumental music is a safe course of action. Everyone else can go on and do what they want in this matter, but as for me, I'll take the approach that I feel is the safe one. You are correct in that I don't think the "eternal outlook is a good one". If I thought it was the sharp thing to do, I'd be doing it myself.

So be it...do as you feel led.

I have, however, provided "valid reasoning from the Scriptures"...valid, at least, in my humble opinion. Do with it what you will.

th1bill
Dec 23rd 2008, 09:47 PM
If the word "psalms" necessarily implies the use of an instrument as you suggest, then we haven't obeyed the command unless EVERY worshiper of God both sings AND plays an instrument. Does everyone at your church play an instrument in worship to God? If not, then those who only sing haven't obeyed the command.
... And here you are once more binding someone. (legalism)



By this logic, we should still be offering animal sacrifices, burning incense, submitting to dietary restrictions, observing the OT feast days, etc. If we are going to keep part of the law (instrumental music) then we are obliged to keep all of the law as Galatians 5:3 says.
... And here you build a straw man for you to kill. Music was never in the Ten Commandments.

Jesus said that the psalms were part of the law. In John 10:34 Jesus said, "...Is it not written in your law..." and then quotes from Psalms 82:6. If Jesus says that the book of Psalms was part of the Law, who am I to argue?
... Since the scripture does not note Jesus as quoting the Psalm, on whose authority do you make that claim? (The authority issue.)

Ultimately this will be God's decision. I will not say that people who use instrumental music will be lost because that is "whittling on God's end of the stick". What I am saying is that I don't think using instrumental music is a safe course of action. ... Here you are implying condemnation by whose authority?

Emanate
Dec 23rd 2008, 10:07 PM
Am I the only one amazed that this is even an issue?

IBWatching
Dec 23rd 2008, 10:30 PM
I attend a church that believes that, and once you study the scriptures its apparent there is no example of the NT church using instrumental music....

Don't stop there. There are LOTS of things you find in even those churches which were not in the NT or early NT churches:

Baptistries (never says people should be baptized in buildings)
Sermons (never says overseer preaches...only Believers Prophesying)
Offerings (between churches and evangelists, but not within local assemblies...for their own use)
Nursery (sorry, it's not in NT)
Sunday School classes (not there)
Adult Bible classes (not there)
Easter/Resurrection Services (or any other "special" services for that matter)
Elder Meetings (talks about having the leaders but doesn't say anything about meetings)
Church Elections (Puhleese!)
Funeral services (not there)
Weddings (not there)

You should see where this is going. As soon as your church gets rid of all these things, then they could make a case for no musical instruments within the local assembly. Otherwise the "silence" from the NT rule would pretty much eliminate the need for your church anyway.

Laish
Dec 23rd 2008, 10:48 PM
Emanate said

Am I the only one amazed that this is even an issue? No you are not alone
Your brother in Christ
Bill

kf4zmt
Dec 24th 2008, 12:51 AM
So I am saved by singing a capella in church? Is that seriously what you are asserting here?

No, what I'm saying is that as Christians it is our duty to offer to God what pleases Him. My understanding of the scriptures is that God wants us to sing. I cannot find anywhere in the NT where He expresses a desire for us to play. Singing a capella will not save us, but I think it is a part of being obedient to His desires. He also expects us to assemble together with other Christians, help the poor, spread the Gospel, etc. These are all things that He expects the faithful to do. What will happen to us if we fail to do them?

diffangle
Dec 24th 2008, 01:21 AM
We are all commanded to sing. Eph 5:19 and Col 3:16 so if you take those passages to include interments then shouldn't everyone have an interments? To fulfill what the verse ask for which is for everyone to do it?

Its obvious that it isn't talking about instruments because as pointed out they never even entered into worship until 666AD also no terms in those passages deal with instruments in anyway...

So where in the NT do you have an example, a command or it even inferred they were used during NT worship...

I haven't read all the replies in this thread so forgive me if the Greek has been pointed out already. When looking at Col. 3:16, the word used for psalms is psalmos meaning...

1) a striking, twanging
a) of a striking the chords of a musical instrument
b) of a pious song, a psalm



The answer is you can't... if you could I would pick up my drum set and go for it because I want to do exactly what God ask of me. Thus I don't go beyond what God wants me to do so I can please him.
Out of curiousity, do you celebrate Christmas and Easter?

kf4zmt
Dec 24th 2008, 01:40 AM
....but I already said, the Psalms are not commands, they are songs...songs which Paul has said to use in teaching. A Psalm is NOT part of "The Law". Check out Luke 24:44, as Christ speaks to "the Eleven":

44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.

The Psalms are distinct from the Law, as are the writings of the Prophets.

The psalm/song teaches us not the we must play an instrument (as a command), but that instruments are used in praise to God...and are therefore acceptable to Him.



...as the Lucan scripture I referenced shows, the law and the psalms are distinct from one another, so we're not talking apples and apples, but apples and oranges. The Psalms do not command us to use instruments, they only teach us that instruments are an acceptable avenue of praise.



The greek word (nomos - Strong's G3551) translated as "law" is defined in Thayer's lexicon thusly:

1) anything established, anything received by usage, a custom, a law, a command
a) of any law whatsoever
1) a law or rule producing a state approved of God
a) by the observance of which is approved of God
2) a precept or injunction
3) the rule of action prescribed by reason
b) of the Mosaic law, and referring, acc. to the context. either to the volume of the law or to its contents
c) the Christian religion: the law demanding faith, the moral instruction given by Christ, esp. the precept concerning love
d) the name of the more important part (the Pentateuch), is put for the entire collection of the sacred books of the OT

Thus "nomos" often means the law, but it can also mean the whole Old Testament, or it can mean anything established, or received by usage...which would again mean "the Scriptures."

If that doesn't convince you, check out Paul's usage of the word in 1 Corinthians 14:21, where Paul refers to a verse in Isaiah (28:11): In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord.

And here's the corresponding verse in Isaiah, just for comparison: For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.


Jesus says that the Old Testament is comprised of the law, the prophets, and psalms. Isaiah is not part of "The Law"...It's/he's part of "The Prophets." As I said, this just lends further credence that nomos can mean all of the (OT) Scriptures, not just the law of Moses. But, Mosaic Law and Psalms are distinct, as I've already addressed...so, the whole Old Testament is not just lumped uncategorically into "the Law."



So be it...do as you feel led.

I have, however, provided "valid reasoning from the Scriptures"...valid, at least, in my humble opinion. Do with it what you will.

Theophilus,
I commend your willingness to turn to the scriptures to demonstrate why you believe what you do and I respect you for that. You might be surprised to learn that you have convinced me that my usage of the word "law" was in error. I think your analysis is correct and I thank you for pointing it out to me.

On the other hand, the psalms were written and "practiced" (for lack of a better word) while the old law was still in effect. Even if the psalms are not part of the law of Moses, it seems that many concepts in them don't apply to people today. For example, Psa 20:3 talks about God accepting a "burnt sacrifice". Similarly, Psa 118:27 says to "tie the sacrifice to the horns of the altar". We don't burn sacrifices to God at the altar today. Indeed to do so would show contempt for Jesus' sacrifice.

Psalms speaks of doing these things that we obviously don't do under the New Covenant. In like manner, how can you be sure that instruments are acceptable just because the book of Psalms says to use instruments during the singing of psalms? We know that this was good counsel during the time when the old covenant was in force, how do we know it is still good counsel under the new covenant?

Sincerely

kf4zmt
Dec 24th 2008, 01:59 AM
... And here you are once more binding someone. (legalism)

Not binding anything here, that was just the logical outcome of the scenario.


... And here you build a straw man for you to kill. Music was never in the Ten Commandments.

I never said music was mentioned in the Ten Commandments. As a matter of fact, most specific commands of God were not mentioned specifically in the Ten Commandments. Animal sacrifices aren't mentioned in the ten commandments, but they were required by God. Likewise for instrumental music under the old covenant.


... Since the scripture does not note Jesus as quoting the Psalm, on whose authority do you make that claim? (The authority issue.)

I know he was quoting Psa 82:6 because the exact phrase he quoted (ye are gods) is found there.


... Here you are implying condemnation by whose authority?

I'm not implying anything other than what I said... that the decision is God's.

Dani H
Dec 24th 2008, 02:28 AM
Am I the only one amazed that this is even an issue?

You would be amazed at what all is an issue ... only, because we choose to make it one. :)

kf4zmt
Dec 24th 2008, 02:30 AM
... You see what I mean, you are speaking implicitly and the implication is that you are speaking in the name of the LORD. That is the legal mind set of which I spoke. Jesus was very detailed in His speech when He spoke of completing and not displacing the Law of the Old Testament and never do I see Him or Paul for that matter dismissing the Old Testament. And then you are the only one requiring that we be bound by the New Testament. In the Writtings of Paul we find that we now have the freedom to obey our LORD.

I agree, the old covenant was completed when Christ fulfilled His purpose here on Earth. We are no longer bound by its laws and I don't think you believe we are either. For example, do you...


offer animal sacrifices?
abstain from eating unclean animals?
observe the three annual feasts commanded under the old law?
abstain from wearing mixed garments of linen and wool?
labor on Saturday (the sabbath)?
leave a double portion to your firstborn in your will?
charge someone interest on a loan?
have a high priest intercede on your behalf on the day of atonement?

If not, please explain why.

I'm not trying to put words in your mouth, but I'm rather certain you don't think these things (and all similar things in the old covenant) are binding upon Christians.


Hebrews 7:18 says the old law was annulled.
Hebrews 8:13 says the we have a new covenant and the first one is obsolete.
Colossians 2:14 says the old law was nailed to the cross
2 Corinthians 3:6-11 says the old law has been done away.

It has been replaced with a better covenant. Hebrews 7:19, 22 & 8:6 says the covenant Jesus established is a better covenant.

The scriptures declare with certainty that Christians are under the law of Christ - the New Covenant.

GitRDunn
Dec 24th 2008, 04:25 AM
I agree, the old covenant was completed when Christ fulfilled His purpose here on Earth. We are no longer bound by its laws and I don't think you believe we are either. For example, do you...


offer animal sacrifices?
abstain from eating unclean animals?
observe the three annual feasts commanded under the old law?
abstain from wearing mixed garments of linen and wool?
labor on Saturday (the sabbath)?
leave a double portion to your firstborn in your will?
charge someone interest on a loan?
have a high priest intercede on your behalf on the day of atonement?

If not, please explain why.

I'm not trying to put words in your mouth, but I'm rather certain you don't think these things (and all similar things in the old covenant) are binding upon Christians.


Hebrews 7:18 says the old law was annulled.
Hebrews 8:13 says the we have a new covenant and the first one is obsolete.
Colossians 2:14 says the old law was nailed to the cross
2 Corinthians 3:6-11 says the old law has been done away.

It has been replaced with a better covenant. Hebrews 7:19, 22 & 8:6 says the covenant Jesus established is a better covenant.

The scriptures declare with certainty that Christians are under the law of Christ - the New Covenant.
Just out of curiosity, do you feel the Ten Commandments are thus not required to be followed? Are you now allowed to not worry about honoring your father and mother, not stealing, etc.?

GitRDunn
Dec 24th 2008, 04:28 AM
When we offer God worship, we should be fully confident that it is something that pleases Him. Consider Matthew 7:21-23...
21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

Notice that just because we claim to do something that honors God, that doesn't mean that He is honored by it or pleased with it. He says that some of these people claim to offer religious service in His name but will be told, "I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness".

Lawlessness simply means "without law". In the context of this discussion, what "law" do Christians have authorizing instrumental music in worship to God? If we do something for which we have no law, are we not practicing lawlessness? The passage also states that only those who do the will of the father will enter the kingdom of heaven.

Moses wasn't allowed to enter the Promised Land because he did what most of us would consider a small thing. He struck the rock instead of speaking to it and in the process dishonored God. So here is the basic question; are we willing to risk God being displeased with us just so we can enjoy our instruments? I for one am not willing to take that risk.
So just because it isn't explicitly said in the New Testament, we can't do something? Well, I guess we shouldn't even be on this forum talking right now then because the New Testament doesn't ever tell us to use a computer or the internet. And there are many more examples such as this.

Connie Sue
Dec 24th 2008, 04:33 AM
WOW! I see you guys are fired up!

I was simply gonna say this..................

I went to a Church of Christ with my mother-in-law. And I liked the sound
of the people sing praises unto God without any instruments at all.

Bluegrass is my favorite.

I personally do not like the idea of having a "bands" in church.
I know people have their own ways of worshipping. But I've been in
churches where the music was SO loud, it was very disturbing, and
I couldn't even think! Because it was so loud. That my friend is to
worldly, I think.

Psa 98:4 And add this scripture..........Make a joyful noise unto the LORD, all the earth: make a loud noise, and rejoice, and sing praise.
Psa 98:6 With trumpets and sound of cornet make a joyful noise before the LORD, the King.


A joyful noise.......not a lot of racket!

Connie Sue
Dec 24th 2008, 04:36 AM
WOW! I see you guys are fired up!

I was simply gonna say this..................

I went to a Church of Christ with my mother-in-law. And I liked the sound
of the people sing praises unto God without any instruments at all.

Bluegrass is my favorite.

I personally do not like the idea of having a "bands" in church.
I know people have their own ways of worshipping. But I've been in
churches where the music was SO loud, it was very disturbing, and
I couldn't even think! Because it was so loud. That my friend is to
worldly, I think.

Psa 98:4 And add this scripture..........Make a joyful noise unto the LORD, all the earth: make a loud noise, and rejoice, and sing praise.
Psa 98:6 With trumpets and sound of cornet make a joyful noise before the LORD, the King.


A joyful noise.......not a lot of racket!

I know there are more scriptures about playing stringed instruments, but I
don't know where they are. God Bless

Zack702
Dec 24th 2008, 07:34 AM
I think that if your giving glory to God for the instruments and for the players ability then surely it can be a good thing.

Else if your not giving glory to God for it then where are you placing that glory?

IMO - Instrumental tones are a part of creation and praising God for them is just as profitable as praising him for anything.

I agree that it should be a joyfull noise and not disturbing tones. But it is the ear that hears that decides what is disturbing and what is joyfull. This relates to the glory thing are you giving glory to God or are you giving glory elsewhere?

If something isn't scriptural I can agree that it isn't necessary.
But surely if your a pastor you wouldn't turn down a musician who praises God for his instruments?

superwoman8977
Dec 24th 2008, 03:33 PM
I am happy to go home tonight to my parents church and get to listen to my mom sing O Holy Night complete with orchestra and then at the end of the service we turn all the lights off and light candles and sing Silent Night that to me is when the spirit really moves and that has been tradition for me since I was a little girl. I have always made it home for Christmas Eve Service wherever I am at in the world. If I am being selfish oh well I love music in a church...:bounce: I am so excited to be driving home tonight to be with my family.

crawfish
Dec 24th 2008, 03:43 PM
I agree, the old covenant was completed when Christ fulfilled His purpose here on Earth. We are no longer bound by its laws and I don't think you believe we are either. For example, do you...


offer animal sacrifices?
abstain from eating unclean animals?
observe the three annual feasts commanded under the old law?
abstain from wearing mixed garments of linen and wool?
labor on Saturday (the sabbath)?
leave a double portion to your firstborn in your will?
charge someone interest on a loan?
have a high priest intercede on your behalf on the day of atonement?

If not, please explain why.

I'm not trying to put words in your mouth, but I'm rather certain you don't think these things (and all similar things in the old covenant) are binding upon Christians.


Hebrews 7:18 says the old law was annulled.
Hebrews 8:13 says the we have a new covenant and the first one is obsolete.
Colossians 2:14 says the old law was nailed to the cross
2 Corinthians 3:6-11 says the old law has been done away.

It has been replaced with a better covenant. Hebrews 7:19, 22 & 8:6 says the covenant Jesus established is a better covenant.

The scriptures declare with certainty that Christians are under the law of Christ - the New Covenant.

Here is where this logic falls apart for me, re instrumental music. I accept that the OT mandates the sabbath while the NT releases us from it. I accept that the OT mandates animal sacrifice while the NT presents Jesus as the ultimate and only sacrifice. But the logic behind the restriction of IM works differently. The OT certainly approves of instrumental worship, and the NT is absolutely silent on it. I would think that if God wanted to limit a behavior that was accepted before, He would have said something specific about it. Instead, non-IM proponents argue that by silence alone God indicates that He does not desire IM in worship. This is an incredibly weak argument if you look at it logically.

kf4zmt
Dec 24th 2008, 04:06 PM
Here is where this logic falls apart for me, re instrumental music. I accept that the OT mandates the sabbath while the NT releases us from it. I accept that the OT mandates animal sacrifice while the NT presents Jesus as the ultimate and only sacrifice. But the logic behind the restriction of IM works differently. The OT certainly approves of instrumental worship, and the NT is absolutely silent on it. I would think that if God wanted to limit a behavior that was accepted before, He would have said something specific about it. Instead, non-IM proponents argue that by silence alone God indicates that He does not desire IM in worship. This is an incredibly weak argument if you look at it logically.

The New Testament is silent about leaving a double portion to the firstborn and charging someone interest on a loan. Since the OT approved of these things and the NT is silent about them we should do them. If God didn't want us to do these things He would have said something specific about them.

crawfish
Dec 24th 2008, 06:26 PM
The New Testament is silent about leaving a double portion to the firstborn and charging someone interest on a loan. Since the OT approved of these things and the NT is silent about them we should do them. If God didn't want us to do these things He would have said something specific about them.

You're confusing requirements and prohibitions. God didn't free us from one law only to place us under another (implied) one...

Chimon
Dec 24th 2008, 08:21 PM
The Old Testament (including Psalms) is not binding upon Christians. The old covenant was between God and the nation of Israel. Today we are bound by the New Testament. I think this distinction between the OT & NT was covered by someone else in an earlier post so I won't go into it again here.


While it is true that "Before this faith [in Christ] came, we were held prisoners by the law, locked up until faith should be revealed. So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith. Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law" and that Christ instituted his new covenant "by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances," it is also true that "All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness," and that we must learn from both the old AND new covenants, which are "sacred writings, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus." (Galatians 3, Ephesians 2, 2 Timothy 3.)

How do we do this? Well, the way we interpret the OT is different than the way we interpret the NT, primarily in that the OT was written to Israel and the NT was written to 1st century Christians.

So when we deal with a passage in the OT, we need to ask ourselves what we can learn about the nature of God from it. Then, we can use this knowledge of God to help know how we should live our lives today. In hermeneutics, this is called a "principlizing bridge."

So, from Psalm 80, we can learn that God is pleased when people use their artistic talents and musical instruments to honor him. There is no this has not been changed by the new covenant or the Sacrifice of Christ, so we can apply it to our lives by saying it is right and pleasing to God to use our artistic abilities to praise God, whether through musical instruments, singing, painting, dance, etc. None of these are condemned, Biblically, so none should put a stumbling block in front of someone else by teaching that they are wrong. If you are convicted in your heart, do not do such an action, but do not condemn others, who are not convicted in their heart.

This is the teaching of Romans 14 as best as I can express it.

th1bill
Dec 24th 2008, 08:28 PM
The New Testament is silent about leaving a double portion to the firstborn and charging someone interest on a loan. Since the OT approved of these things and the NT is silent about them we should do them. If God didn't want us to do these things He would have said something specific about them.
... Look, your argument resides in legalism. I have done my best to instruct you, just as you requested and not to argue and fall into intentional ignorance, along side of you. God will, as far as I can tell, neither condemn me nor exalt me for leaving a double portion to my second born, my son, and half that to my first born, my daughter, He has left that up to me. The very fact that you are building straw men in the middle of an empty field and then mounting up and lopping their heads off with your Sword, the Bible, is extremely alarming. We have been warn by our LORD against this very thing.
...The long and the short of it is that if you wish to converse on these matters, drop the attitude, stop misusing scripture and begin to converse, otherwise, good day.

th1bill
Dec 24th 2008, 08:31 PM
WOW! I see you guys are fired up!

I was simply gonna say this..................

I went to a Church of Christ with my mother-in-law. And I liked the sound
of the people sing praises unto God without any instruments at all.

Bluegrass is my favorite.

I personally do not like the idea of having a "bands" in church.
I know people have their own ways of worshipping. But I've been in
churches where the music was SO loud, it was very disturbing, and
I couldn't even think! Because it was so loud. That my friend is to
worldly, I think.

Psa 98:4 And add this scripture..........Make a joyful noise unto the LORD, all the earth: make a loud noise, and rejoice, and sing praise.
Psa 98:6 With trumpets and sound of cornet make a joyful noise before the LORD, the King.


A joyful noise.......not a lot of racket!

I know there are more scriptures about playing stringed instruments, but I
don't know where they are. God Bless
... And to the best of my knowledge, none of us here are against anything you have said. But if you ever become legalistic about it then most of us and the scriptures will be opposed to that.

adean
Jan 14th 2009, 10:50 PM
... Look, your argument resides in legalism. I have done my best to instruct you, just as you requested and not to argue and fall into intentional ignorance, along side of you. God will, as far as I can tell, neither condemn me nor exalt me for leaving a double portion to my second born, my son, and half that to my first born, my daughter, He has left that up to me. The very fact that you are building straw men in the middle of an empty field and then mounting up and lopping their heads off with your Sword, the Bible, is extremely alarming. We have been warn by our LORD against this very thing.
...The long and the short of it is that if you wish to converse on these matters, drop the attitude, stop misusing scripture and begin to converse, otherwise, good day.


Wow, it seems that several who have been participating in this thread don't care to base their answers on the bible. Only a few here are appealing to the scriptures to form the basis for their comments. The others are, unfortunately, answering based solely on opinion and then very nearly resorting to name calling (legalist, etc.) when they can't refute the arguments of others.

Someone once said, "Contempt is the emotion we feel for an opponent whose arguments are too formidable to refute". How true!

Walstib
Jan 14th 2009, 11:19 PM
Hi adean,

Welcome! I would encourage you to make a post in the introduction forum HERE (http://bibleforums.org/forumdisplay.php?f=19)

I trust you have read through the rules (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?t=59397) and agree, especially with the third section.

Peace

reformedct
Jan 14th 2009, 11:51 PM
if an instrument is used to bring glory to God what is the problem? Because one is louder than the other or maybe because worldly people use it for evil we cannot use it? imo thats like saying we cant record video services because worldly people use video for evil things?
imo this sounds similar to a What would Jesus Eat type of question.

adean
Jan 15th 2009, 12:22 AM
if an instrument is used to bring glory to God what is the problem? Because one is louder than the other or maybe because worldly people use it for evil we cannot use it? imo thats like saying we cant record video services because worldly people use video for evil things?
imo this sounds similar to a What would Jesus Eat type of question.

reformedct,
Can you give book, chapter and verse to substantiate your opinion?

Respectfully,
adean

reformedct
Jan 15th 2009, 02:50 AM
reformedct,
Can you give book, chapter and verse to substantiate your opinion?

Respectfully,
adean


can you show a verse that says we cannot use guitar? lol guitar is stringed instrument right? then were good:cool:

adean
Jan 15th 2009, 04:14 AM
can you show a verse that says we cannot use guitar? lol guitar is stringed instrument right? then were good:cool:

The burden of proof lies with the one who makes the claim that a thing is authorized. It is incumbent upon those who wish to use instruments to provide evidence that they are authorized by the bible.

reformedct
Jan 15th 2009, 04:26 AM
The burden of proof lies with the one who makes the claim that a thing is authorized. It is incumbent upon those who wish to use instruments to provide evidence that they are authorized by the bible.

i dont know what that means all i know is there is a scripture that says praise Him on the stringed instruments

Butch5
Jan 15th 2009, 04:38 AM
The burden of proof lies with the one who makes the claim that a thing is authorized. It is incumbent upon those who wish to use instruments to provide evidence that they are authorized by the bible.


Since musical instruments were used in the OT, is it fair to say that we need to find a command that forbids them? Paul told the Ephesians to sing Psalms, a Psalm by nature is a piece of music that is played with an instrument. Some of the Psalms specify which instruments are to be used.

Dani H
Jan 15th 2009, 04:45 AM
What does God hear when we praise Him?

Our instruments? Our voices?

Or something else? Maybe our hearts?

kf4zmt
Jan 15th 2009, 02:09 PM
Since musical instruments were used in the OT, is it fair to say that we need to find a command that forbids them? Paul told the Ephesians to sing Psalms, a Psalm by nature is a piece of music that is played with an instrument. Some of the Psalms specify which instruments are to be used.

I agree, Paul told the Ephesians to SING psalms. But, he didn't say anything about playing. I also agree that some of the psalms mention using instruments. But you have to realize that we are no longer under the covenant that the Jews were under and our new covenant requires different things. By way of example, allow me to quote something I said in post #84, "Psa 20:3 talks about God accepting a "burnt sacrifice". Similarly, Psa 118:27 says to "tie the sacrifice to the horns of the altar". We don't burn sacrifices to God at the altar today. Indeed to do so would show contempt for Jesus' sacrifice".

These examples in psalms speak of offering animal sacrifices. Obviously this isn't something that we do under the new covenant. Just because something is mentioned in a psalm doesn't mean we should do it today. We must find the authority for what we do from the new covenant for that is the covenant we are bound by today.

doubledcattle
Jan 15th 2009, 02:34 PM
Here is the deal.

Whether we use instruments in church or not should be a conviction by God himself, not by someone on this message board.

I personally play drums in my church. We sing praises and hymns with our music. Until God convicts me of playing an instrument in church then I will continue and nobody will belittle me or try to make me feel inferior or "not saved" A lot of these post from people who are against instruments are trying to act holier than thou and that is not cool. Let God convict those He wants to convict, not someone sitting in front of a computer screen.

If you don't agree with instuments they hey, guess what, you aren't going to hear me tell you that you are crazy or anything like that. You have your beliefs and opinions and I'm just man enough to admit AND accept that. But to those who are putting the ones down that play musical instruments or go to a church where there are instruments, then please respect that persons opinions and beliefs. Besides, musical insruments don't matter when it comes down to whether or not you have accepted Jesus as your personal savior.

So, with that being said. Am I like others that play musical instruments going to Heaven when I die? YES. IF WE HAVE A PERSONAL RELATIONSHIP WITH JESUS.

Are the ones that do not believe in musical instruments going to heaven when they die? YES. IF THEY HAVE A PERSONAL RELATIONSHIP WITH JESUS.

kf4zmt
Jan 15th 2009, 02:56 PM
Here is the deal.

Whether we use instruments in church or not should be a conviction by God himself, not by someone on this message board.

I personally play drums in my church. We sing praises and hymns with our music. Until God convicts me of playing an instrument in church then I will continue and nobody will belittle me or try to make me feel inferior or "not saved" A lot of these post from people who are against instruments are trying to act holier than thou and that is not cool. Let God convict those He wants to convict, not someone sitting in front of a computer screen.

If you don't agree with instuments they hey, guess what, you aren't going to hear me tell you that you are crazy or anything like that. You have your beliefs and opinions and I'm just man enough to admit AND accept that. But to those who are putting the ones down that play musical instruments or go to a church where there are instruments, then please respect that persons opinions and beliefs. Besides, musical insruments don't matter when it comes down to whether or not you have accepted Jesus as your personal savior.

So, with that being said. Am I like others that play musical instruments going to Heaven when I die? YES. IF WE HAVE A PERSONAL RELATIONSHIP WITH JESUS.

Are the ones that do not believe in musical instruments going to heaven when they die? YES. IF THEY HAVE A PERSONAL RELATIONSHIP WITH JESUS.

I have not said anyone is crazy for playing musical instruments. If I have given that impression is was not intentional. As I have stated before, everyone must do what they think is right. I think nearly everyone wants to do the right thing, we just disagree as to what that is on some occasions.

Our challenge as disciples is to figure out from the bible what it is that God is pleased with. Too many times, we decide what God is pleased with based on what pleases us. For example, Cain tried to offer a sacrifice to God that pleased him. However, God was not pleased with it (Gen 4:3-7, Heb 11:4). Nadab and Abihu offered fire before the Lord which He had not commanded them. They thought fire from one source was as good as from another. The end result was that God was not pleased when they offered him something other than what He had asked for (Lev 10:1-2).

We can learn the principle from these old testament examples that God's desires must be respected and that He is displeased when we don't heed Him. It is our duty as followers of Christ to "correctly handle the word of truth" (2 Tim 2:15 NIV).

kf4zmt
Jan 15th 2009, 03:04 PM
Here is the deal.

Whether we use instruments in church or not should be a conviction by God himself, not by someone on this message board.

I personally play drums in my church. We sing praises and hymns with our music. Until God convicts me of playing an instrument in church then I will continue and nobody will belittle me or try to make me feel inferior or "not saved" A lot of these post from people who are against instruments are trying to act holier than thou and that is not cool. Let God convict those He wants to convict, not someone sitting in front of a computer screen.

If you don't agree with instuments they hey, guess what, you aren't going to hear me tell you that you are crazy or anything like that. You have your beliefs and opinions and I'm just man enough to admit AND accept that. But to those who are putting the ones down that play musical instruments or go to a church where there are instruments, then please respect that persons opinions and beliefs. Besides, musical insruments don't matter when it comes down to whether or not you have accepted Jesus as your personal savior.

So, with that being said. Am I like others that play musical instruments going to Heaven when I die? YES. IF WE HAVE A PERSONAL RELATIONSHIP WITH JESUS.

Are the ones that do not believe in musical instruments going to heaven when they die? YES. IF THEY HAVE A PERSONAL RELATIONSHIP WITH JESUS.

I understand your frustration, but please remember that we ought to be basing our comments on the bible. If all we do is give our opinions with no bible to back them up, no one will be convinced. Your opinion is as valid as anyone else's but since all opinions hold equal weight, only the bible can be the tie breaker.

doubledcattle
Jan 15th 2009, 03:07 PM
I have not said anyone is crazy for playing musical instruments. If I have given that impression is was not intentional. As I have stated before, everyone must do what they think is right. I think nearly everyone wants to do the right thing, we just disagree as to what that is on some occasions.

Our challenge as disciples is to figure out from the bible what it is that God is pleased with. Too many times, we decide what God is pleased with based on what pleases us. For example, Cain tried to offer a sacrifice to God that pleased him. However, God was not pleased with it (Gen 4:3-7, Heb 11:4). Nadab and Abihu offered fire before the Lord which He had not commanded them. They thought fire from one source was as good as from another. The end result was that God was not pleased when they offered him something other than what He had asked for (Lev 10:1-2).

We can learn the principle from these old testament examples that God's desires must be respected and that He is displeased when we don't heed Him. It is our duty as followers of Christ to "correctly handle the word of truth" (2 Tim 2:15 NIV).


I agree with this. As far as instuments I think that we should honor and respect God with them. I listen to some "Christian" bands that seem like they are in it to get popular and not in it for the right reason, at least I don't feel like they are because I don't feel God in it. I can listen to other bands like Disciple or Seventh Day Slumber and know pretty much where their hearts are. So I think as long as we are using instruments then they should be used in the right way and be used to honor, praise and glorify God. Believe it or not God speaks to me through music. So I will agree to disagree with the ones on here that don't believe in it, and there is no love lost. I still respect you and your opinions. Hey, no two people are the same, so that means we all have different opininos, views and convictions. That doesn't mean we have to be mean to each other. KF4ZMT my previous post wasn't directed to you, there have just been some other posts that I found kind of upsetting. So lets all get along and respect peoples opinions. As I said before, as long as we have that personal relationship with Christ then the rest will fall into place.

doubledcattle
Jan 15th 2009, 03:10 PM
I understand your frustration, but please remember that we ought to be basing our comments on the bible. If all we do is give our opinions with no bible to back them up, no one will be convinced. Your opinion is as valid as anyone else's but since all opinions hold equal weight, only the bible can be the tie breaker.



You will not convince me that I shouldn't be playing an instrument. I have not seen the first verse telling me NOT to. So keep trying and again, YOU are not going to convict me. God will.

Do you even listen to music on the radio? If so, what kind? Just wondering.

kf4zmt
Jan 15th 2009, 03:10 PM
I agree with this. As far as instuments I think that we should honor and respect God with them. I listen to some "Christian" bands that seem like they are in it to get popular and not in it for the right reason, at least I don't feel like they are because I don't feel God in it. I can listen to other bands like Disciple or Seventh Day Slumber and know pretty much where their hearts are. So I think as long as we are using instruments then they should be used in the right way and be used to honor, praise and glorify God. Believe it or not God speaks to me through music. So I will agree to disagree with the ones on here that don't believe in it, and there is no love lost. I still respect you and your opinions. Hey, no two people are the same, so that means we all have different opininos, views and convictions. That doesn't mean we have to be mean to each other. KF4ZMT my previous post wasn't directed to you, there have just been some other posts that I found kind of upsetting. So lets all get along and respect peoples opinions. As I said before, as long as we have that personal relationship with Christ then the rest will fall into place.

Sometimes agreeing to disagree is the best we can do. :) I appreciate your comments.

kf4zmt
Jan 15th 2009, 03:12 PM
You will not convince me that I shouldn't be playing an instrument. I have not seen the first verse telling me NOT to. So keep trying and again, YOU are not going to convict me. God will.

Do you even listen to music on the radio? If so, what kind? Just wondering.

Sometimes. I guess I'm a stick in the mud. :) I mainly listen to podcast.

adean
Jan 15th 2009, 03:13 PM
I understand your frustration, but please remember that we ought to be basing our comments on the bible. If all we do is give our opinions with no bible to back them up, no one will be convinced. Your opinion is as valid as anyone else's but since all opinions hold equal weight, only the bible can be the tie breaker.

Amen. This is exactly right.

Dani H
Jan 15th 2009, 03:15 PM
I understand your frustration, but please remember that we ought to be basing our comments on the bible. If all we do is give our opinions with no bible to back them up, no one will be convinced. Your opinion is as valid as anyone else's but since all opinions hold equal weight, only the bible can be the tie breaker.

Not necessarily. People have a tendency to interpret Scriptures according to their own understanding, what they have been taught, etc. I've seen people use the Bible in abusive ways to undergird their own opinions instead of treating others lovingly and with respect, which is the key in any discussion. God also wants us to think and use our minds He gave us, and give one another freedom to serve and obey our Master to whom we each stand and fall.

And so in the light of that, if you want to worship the Lord with instruments, do so. If you'd rather do the accapella thing, then do so. But don't judge one another, and certainly don't use the Bible to do it with. :)

doubledcattle
Jan 15th 2009, 03:19 PM
And so in the light of that, if you want to worship the Lord with instruments, do so. If you'd rather do the accapella thing, then do so. But don't judge one another, and certainly don't use the Bible to do it with. :)


Amen. Thank you for that

kf4zmt
Jan 15th 2009, 03:24 PM
Not necessarily. People have a tendency to interpret Scriptures according to their own understanding, what they have been taught, etc. I've seen people use the Bible in abusive ways to undergird their own opinions instead of treating others lovingly and with respect, which is the key in any discussion. God also wants us to think and use our minds He gave us, and give one another freedom to serve and obey our Master to whom we each stand and fall.

And so in the light of that, if you want to worship the Lord with instruments, do so. If you'd rather do the accapella thing, then do so. But don't judge one another, and certainly don't use the Bible to do it with. :)

Yep, you are exactly right. We can't help but interpret the bible based upon what we have been taught. You are also right in that people prop up their opinions with bible passages taken out of context. I ran across a quote a while back that has become one of my favorites. Its a little long, but its worth the time to read it.
We do not start our Christian lives by working out our faith for ourselves; it is mediated to us by Christian tradition, in the form of sermons, books and established patterns of church life and fellowship. We read our Bibles in the light of what we have learned from these sources; we approach Scripture with minds already formed by the mass of accepted opinions and viewpoints with which we have come into contact, in both the Church and the world.…It is easy to be unaware that it has happened; it is hard even to begin to realize how profoundly tradition in this sense has moulded us. But we are forbidden to become enslaved to human tradition, either secular or Christian, whether it be “catholic” tradition, or “critical” tradition, or “ecumenical” tradition. We may never assume the complete rightness of our own established ways of thought and practice and excuse ourselves the duty of testing and reforming them by Scriptures.

-- J. I. Packer
The challenge we all have is to throw off any human traditions and opinions and replace them with the word of God. This isn't easy and I think it is a lifelong process. The important thing is to have the courage to do it. The bible must be the standard for all that we do.

doubledcattle
Jan 15th 2009, 03:32 PM
The bible must be the standard for all that we do.


I agree with that 100% but back to the music thing there is no verse that forbids us to use instruments to worship or praise God. There is no mention of hymn books, a pitch pipe or a microphone in the Bible but churches all across the world have these things. Just because the Bible doesn't mention these things doesn't mean they are forbidden. God gave us all a BRAIN to use when making decisions about such matters, and He has sealed real Christians with His Holy Spirit to lead and guide them in their decision making. When we step out of line or do something God doesn't like then He disciplines us. Remember, God disciplines those he loves.

So in my opinion the music thing shouldn't be as big of a deal as this whole thread has made it out to be.

crawfish
Jan 15th 2009, 04:24 PM
Amen. This is exactly right.

I think everybody on the board would agree with that statement. But, as a lifetime member of the non-instrumental church of Christ who has come to see this argument as a fallacy, I know that you go well beyond scripture into opinion when you try to enforce a capella worship.

I hope that all in our brotherhood will see that the ban on instruments has more to do with us finding biblical rationalization for something we were doing rather than letting scripture speak to us. If you have not done so, go back and study this without the assumption that musical instruments are wrong; try to clear your perspective and see how strong the arguments are. I have found you CANNOT justify that view without prior assumption.

reformedct
Jan 15th 2009, 04:28 PM
I agree with that 100% but back to the music thing there is no verse that forbids us to use instruments to worship or praise God. There is no mention of hymn books, a pitch pipe or a microphone in the Bible but churches all across the world have these things. Just because the Bible doesn't mention these things doesn't mean they are forbidden. God gave us all a BRAIN to use when making decisions about such matters, and He has sealed real Christians with His Holy Spirit to lead and guide them in their decision making. When we step out of line or do something God doesn't like then He disciplines us. Remember, God disciplines those he loves.

So in my opinion the music thing shouldn't be as big of a deal as this whole thread has made it out to be.

i agree. there is something called a normative principle vs. the regulative principle. One says, if its not in the Bible, we dont do it. Which means no internet, no hockey, no jazz, no jeans, etc. The other principle says; as long as the Bible does not forbid it then it is OK. i would place instruments under the not forbidden category. If we say that jut because something is not mentioned in the Scriptures we cant use it, then we must all get off of the internet right now, because there is nothing about it in the Bible.
With the glorious redemption of the new blood covenant through Christ as our banner, i highly doubt that God is getting Himself in a knot over us using a harp or a banjo while we praise. We are now worshipping in SPirit and in Truth. Love your God and your neighbor, on these two hinge all the commandments of the law and the prophets. If we can do anything in love for God and love for our neighbor it is good.

I remember hearing a worship sevice that used guitar(it wasnt super loud it was very reverent with meaningful lyrics) It felt very upllifting to be able to worship God in a style that was native to me. I enjoyed it greatly

reformedct
Jan 15th 2009, 04:31 PM
I think everybody on the board would agree with that statement. But, as a lifetime member of the non-instrumental church of Christ who has come to see this argument as a fallacy, I know that you go well beyond scripture into opinion when you try to enforce a capella worship.

I hope that all in our brotherhood will see that the ban on instruments has more to do with us finding biblical rationalization for something we were doing rather than letting scripture speak to us. If you have not done so, go back and study this without the assumption that musical instruments are wrong; try to clear your perspective and see how strong the arguments are. I have found you CANNOT justify that view without prior assumption.

In heaven Jesus is going to be handing out instruments while we party by the way lol it will be amusing to see those who dont believe in instruments when we get to heaven

Love you guys in Christ
Peace

kf4zmt
Jan 15th 2009, 06:46 PM
I agree with that 100% but back to the music thing there is no verse that forbids us to use instruments to worship or praise God. There is no mention of hymn books, a pitch pipe or a microphone in the Bible but churches all across the world have these things. Just because the Bible doesn't mention these things doesn't mean they are forbidden. God gave us all a BRAIN to use when making decisions about such matters, and He has sealed real Christians with His Holy Spirit to lead and guide them in their decision making. When we step out of line or do something God doesn't like then He disciplines us. Remember, God disciplines those he loves.

So in my opinion the music thing shouldn't be as big of a deal as this whole thread has made it out to be.

You are right, there is no mention of hymn books, a pitch pipe or a microphone in the Bible. If there is no authority for these things, then we would definitely be wrong to use them. I think there is authority for the things you mention. Let me explain why by first pointing out the distinction between general authority and specific authority. I think the easiest way to see the difference is by example:

Occasion: Passover meal (Ex 12)
Specific Command: Eat a male lamb, one year old, without blemish
If God had said use an animal, this would have granted them general authority and any animal would do. But God specified the kind of animal to be used. All other kinds of animals were automatically excluded.
Occasion: Building Noah's Ark (Gen 6)
Specific Command: Use gopher wood
If God had said to use wood, this would have given Noah general authority to use any kind of wood. But God specified the kind of wood and therefore all other kinds of wood were excluded.
Occasion: The Great Commission (Mat 28:19-20)
General Command: Go & Teach
Jesus commands us to go out and teach others. If He had specified that we could only go on foot, then all other forms of travel would have been prohibited. Since He didn't specify how we are to travel, we are free to use any means at our disposal.
Likewise, Jesus commanded us to teach. He didn't say specifically how to teach. It could be in person, by writing, or by any other means available to us. If He had specified teaching using only one method, all other methods would have been unauthorized.
Occasion: Christians meeting together (Heb 10:25)
General command: Assemble
Christians are commanded to meet together to encourage one another. We are not told where to meet. If the place had been specified, all other places would have been off limits. Therefore we are free to choose whether to build a meeting house, rent one, meet in someone's home or meet outdoors, etc.
When we are given general authority to do something, authority is given to utilize any aid that helps to carry out the command. For example, Noah was told to build but not told how (other than the type of wood, dimensions, etc). This means he was given authority to use hammers, saws, and any other tool needed to build the ark.

On the other hand, when we are given specific authority to do something, we have no right to make substitutions or additions. For example, the Israelites were not at liberty to use a female lamb during the passover. God had specified that a male was to be used. The lamb could not be two years old because when God specified the age of the lamb, lambs older or younger than 1 year were excluded.

The type of music we commanded to use is singing. This is a specific command. Instrumental music is another kind of music and therefore is excluded. If God had said use music, then we would be free to choose any kind of music we wanted. But He specified singing and therefore we don't have the liberty to add something else. The new testament commands us to sing when we worship God and we aren't told how to carry out the command to sing. We can sing from memory or we can sing from a song book. We can use a pitch pipe to keep on tune or we can choose not to use it. If the church building is too large for everyone to hear the song leader, we can use a microphone. Song books, pitch pipes and microphones are all aids or tools that are used in carrying out the command to sing. They are like the tools Noah would have used to build the ark.

When we add instruments, we are now singing and playing. Instruments are an addition to the command to sing because they represent another kind of music. When we use a song book, we aren't singing and "booking". Instruments are not an aid to singing, they are an addition to singing.

To summarize, I think we can see the principle in scripture that teaches general authority authorizes everything in the general realm which is under consideration. Specific authority authorizes only that which is specified and excludes all other specifics in the general realm.

Sorry this was so long.

kf4zmt
Jan 15th 2009, 06:55 PM
I think everybody on the board would agree with that statement. But, as a lifetime member of the non-instrumental church of Christ who has come to see this argument as a fallacy, I know that you go well beyond scripture into opinion when you try to enforce a capella worship.

I hope that all in our brotherhood will see that the ban on instruments has more to do with us finding biblical rationalization for something we were doing rather than letting scripture speak to us. If you have not done so, go back and study this without the assumption that musical instruments are wrong; try to clear your perspective and see how strong the arguments are. I have found you CANNOT justify that view without prior assumption.

Thanks for the insight. As a matter of fact, I have taken your advice (although it was years ago). I was raised as a Baptist where instrumental music was the norm. My assumption was that there was nothing wrong with instrumental music. Thats just something everyone knows, right? ;)

As I began to study the matter, I was reluctantly forced to conclude that there is no authority for instruments in worship. I didn't conclude this because I wanted to, or because it was the fun and easy thing to do. I took a lot of heat from those close to me for adopting this view. I came to this conclusion because I undertook a logical and systematic approach to studying out the issue and I simply couldn't deny what the bible was telling me. I wanted to do what I believed to be pleasing to God and I simply couldn't prove that He is pleased with instrumental music. Believe me, I didn't really want to come to this conclusion.

I began my study with the belief that instrumental music was just fine. I was forced to walk away with a different conclusion.

doubledcattle
Jan 15th 2009, 07:08 PM
This should be my final post on this subject.

My final summary: I feel that it doesn't make you any less of a Christian whether you use instruments or not. It's for some and not for others and that is ok.

Butch5
Jan 15th 2009, 08:02 PM
I agree, Paul told the Ephesians to SING psalms. But, he didn't say anything about playing. I also agree that some of the psalms mention using instruments. But you have to realize that we are no longer under the covenant that the Jews were under and our new covenant requires different things. By way of example, allow me to quote something I said in post #84, "Psa 20:3 talks about God accepting a "burnt sacrifice". Similarly, Psa 118:27 says to "tie the sacrifice to the horns of the altar". We don't burn sacrifices to God at the altar today. Indeed to do so would show contempt for Jesus' sacrifice".

These examples in psalms speak of offering animal sacrifices. Obviously this isn't something that we do under the new covenant. Just because something is mentioned in a psalm doesn't mean we should do it today. We must find the authority for what we do from the new covenant for that is the covenant we are bound by today.

Your example is fallacious, we are told that the OT sacrifices were fulfilled in Christ, and therefore are no longer necessary, where are we told not to worship with musical instruments? We're not.

It is not that we must find authority in the NT, but that it is forbidden in the NT, as it was an established practice in the OT.

Scripture tells us God was worshiped with instruments in the OT, and that He will be worshiped with them in the future. Why are we to believe that we are not to use them now?

Also consider this, Paul told the Colossians and the Ephesians, to use psalms, by definition, a psalm is played with a musical instrument, that is one thing that separates it from hymns and spiritual songs. Consider the definition of Psalmos.

Thayer’s Greek Definitions

G5568 ψαλμός psalmos

Thayer Definition: 1) a striking, twanging 1a) of a striking the chords of a musical instrument 1b) of a pious song, a psalm

doubledcattle
Jan 15th 2009, 08:17 PM
Your example is fallacious, we are told that the OT sacrifices were fulfilled in Christ, and therefore are no longer necessary, where are we told not to worship with musical instruments? We're not.

It is not that we must find authority in the NT, but that it is forbidden in the NT, as it was an established practice in the OT.

Scripture tells us God was worshiped with instruments in the OT, and that He will be worshiped with them in the future. Why are we to believe that we are not to use them now?

Also consider this, Paul told the Colossians and the Ephesians, to use psalms, by definition, a psalm is played with a musical instrument, that is one thing that separates it from hymns and spiritual songs. Consider the definition of Psalmos.

Thayer’s Greek Definitions

G5568 ψαλμός psalmos

Thayer Definition: 1) a striking, twanging 1a) of a striking the chords of a musical instrument 1b) of a pious song, a psalm


Great post. Also music can be difined like this: musical work or compositions for singing or playing.

Ephesians tells us to sing and also to make music. He already told us go sing right? Then he tells us to also make music. So it looks like this may be a choice you can make. Instruments or no instruments. Either way should be just fine.

doubledcattle
Jan 15th 2009, 08:20 PM
Also here are other definitions of music.

mu·sic [ myzik (http://encarta.msn.com/encnet/features/dictionary/Pronounce.aspx?search=Music) ]

noun Definition: 1. sounds that produce effect: sounds, usually produced by instruments or voices, that are arranged or played in order to create an effect

2. art of arranging sounds: the art of arranging or making sounds, usually those of musical instruments or voices, so as to create an effect

3. type of music: music of a particular type, place, time, instrument, or style
http://encarta.msn.com/xImages/dictionary/bullet.gifhttp://encarta.msn.com/xImages/trans.gifrock-and-roll music

4. written music: written notation indicating the pitch, duration, rhythm, and tone of notes to be played

5. pleasing sound: a sound or group of sounds that creates a desired effect
http://encarta.msn.com/xImages/dictionary/bullet.gifhttp://encarta.msn.com/xImages/trans.gifthe music of the wind in the trees

Butch5
Jan 15th 2009, 08:25 PM
You are right, there is no mention of hymn books, a pitch pipe or a microphone in the Bible. If there is no authority for these things, then we would definitely be wrong to use them. I think there is authority for the things you mention. Let me explain why by first pointing out the distinction between general authority and specific authority. I think the easiest way to see the difference is by example:

Occasion: Passover meal (Ex 12)
Specific Command: Eat a male lamb, one year old, without blemish

If God had said use an animal, this would have granted them general authority and any animal would do. But God specified the kind of animal to be used. All other kinds of animals were automatically excluded.
Occasion: Building Noah's Ark (Gen 6)
Specific Command: Use gopher wood

If God had said to use wood, this would have given Noah general authority to use any kind of wood. But God specified the kind of wood and therefore all other kinds of wood were excluded.
Occasion: The Great Commission (Mat 28:19-20)
General Command: Go & Teach

Jesus commands us to go out and teach others. If He had specified that we could only go on foot, then all other forms of travel would have been prohibited. Since He didn't specify how we are to travel, we are free to use any means at our disposal.
Likewise, Jesus commanded us to teach. He didn't say specifically how to teach. It could be in person, by writing, or by any other means available to us. If He had specified teaching using only one method, all other methods would have been unauthorized.
Occasion: Christians meeting together (Heb 10:25)
General command: Assemble

Christians are commanded to meet together to encourage one another. We are not told where to meet. If the place had been specified, all other places would have been off limits. Therefore we are free to choose whether to build a meeting house, rent one, meet in someone's home or meet outdoors, etc.
When we are given general authority to do something, authority is given to utilize any aid that helps to carry out the command. For example, Noah was told to build but not told how (other than the type of wood, dimensions, etc). This means he was given authority to use hammers, saws, and any other tool needed to build the ark.

On the other hand, when we are given specific authority to do something, we have no right to make substitutions or additions. For example, the Israelites were not at liberty to use a female lamb during the passover. God had specified that a male was to be used. The lamb could not be two years old because when God specified the age of the lamb, lambs older or younger than 1 year were excluded.

The type of music we commanded to use is singing. This is a specific command. Instrumental music is another kind of music and therefore is excluded. If God had said use music, then we would be free to choose any kind of music we wanted. But He specified singing and therefore we don't have the liberty to add something else. The new testament commands us to sing when we worship God and we aren't told how to carry out the command to sing. We can sing from memory or we can sing from a song book. We can use a pitch pipe to keep on tune or we can choose not to use it. If the church building is too large for everyone to hear the song leader, we can use a microphone. Song books, pitch pipes and microphones are all aids or tools that are used in carrying out the command to sing. They are like the tools Noah would have used to build the ark.

When we add instruments, we are now singing and playing. Instruments are an addition to the command to sing because they represent another kind of music. When we use a song book, we aren't singing and "booking". Instruments are not an aid to singing, they are an addition to singing.

To summarize, I think we can see the principle in scripture that teaches general authority authorizes everything in the general realm which is under consideration. Specific authority authorizes only that which is specified and excludes all other specifics in the general realm.

Sorry this was so long.

So then, from this can I assume that you sing the psalms? The definition of a psalm is to play an instrument, so Paul did give authority to use instruments.

Butch5
Jan 15th 2009, 08:42 PM
Great post. Also music can be difined like this: musical work or compositions for singing or playing.

Ephesians tells us to sing and also to make music. He already told us go sing right? Then he tells us to also make music. So it looks like this may be a choice you can make. Instruments or no instruments. Either way should be just fine.

Yes, and Ephesians 5:19 says,

Ephesians 5:19 ( KJV ) 19Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord;

The Greek word here translated "in" is "en", and while it can be interpreted spatially as in or within, it can also be translated, instrumentally as with. Either interpretation works here. If however, it is translated instrumentally as with, it would mean to do these thing with your heart, or in modern lingo, do them from your heart.

For a logical, well thought out explanation of this issue I suggest this site.

http://www.oasischristianchurch.org/articles/Instrumental.pdf

Dauwq
Jan 15th 2009, 09:06 PM
Heya all

Just a thought.....This is something personal like your relationship with God.....Trying praying bout it and see what God wants you to do....

Lots of love

kf4zmt
Jan 15th 2009, 09:36 PM
Your example is fallacious, we are told that the OT sacrifices were fulfilled in Christ, and therefore are no longer necessary, where are we told not to worship with musical instruments? We're not.

It is not that we must find authority in the NT, but that it is forbidden in the NT, as it was an established practice in the OT.

Scripture tells us God was worshiped with instruments in the OT, and that He will be worshiped with them in the future. Why are we to believe that we are not to use them now?

If I understood you correctly, you were implying that because some of the psalms stated which instruments to use, then we are to use them today. There are several practices that they refer to that were only lawful under the old testament. The point I was trying to make is that just because a psalm mentions doing something, that doesn't mean it applies to Christians today. Animal sacrifices are one example. Christians cannot sing, "I will offer unto thee burnt offerings..." (Ps 66:15). Christians can't sing, "Break thou the arm of the wicked..." (Ps 10:15). We are to pray for our enemies.

Regarding a specific prohibition against instruments in the NT consider the following OT commands:


observe the three annual feasts commanded under the old law
abstain from wearing mixed garments of linen and wool
no labor on Saturday (the sabbath)
leave a double portion to your firstborn in your will
can't charge someone interest on a loan

These are all things commanded under the old law just like instrumental music was commanded in the OT. There is no prohibition against these things in the NT. Are we to conclude that we should still be doing these things because the NT didn't tell us to stop? I don't know of anyone who thinks so. If we don't need a passage forbidding these in the NT, why would we need one for instrumental music? The silence of the scriptures does not authorize anything.


Also consider this, Paul told the Colossians and the Ephesians, to use psalms, by definition, a psalm is played with a musical instrument, that is one thing that separates it from hymns and spiritual songs. Consider the definition of Psalmos.

Thayer’s Greek Definitions

G5568 ψαλμός psalmos

Thayer Definition: 1) a striking, twanging 1a) of a striking the chords of a musical instrument 1b) of a pious song, a psalm

I'm not a greek scholar, but I believe your definition of psalmos is a good one. However, consider the following.

1)
If psalmos always requires striking the chords of a musical instrument, then we haven't obeyed the commands of Eph 5:19 or Col 3:16 unless we have ALL engaged in singing AND playing. If you are correct, then everyone must both sing and play to comply with this command.

2)
If psalmos always requires striking the chords of a musical instrument, then the early church was never obedient to this command. Consider these quotes from the early church "fathers".
AQUINAS "Our church does not use musical instruments, as harps and psalteries, to praise God withal, that she may not seem to Judaize." (Thomas Aquinas, Bingham's Antiquities, Vol. 3, page 137)

AUGUSTINE "musical instruments were not used. The pipe, tabret, and harp here associate so intimately with the sensual heathen cults, as well as with the wild revelries and shameless performances of the degenerate theater and circus, it is easy to understand the prejudices against their use in the worship." (Augustine 354 A.D., describing the singing at Alexandria under Athanasius)

CHRYSOSTOM "David formerly sang songs, also today we sing hymns. He had a lyre with lifeless strings, the church has a lyre with living strings. Our tongues are the strings of the lyre with a different tone indeed but much more in accordance with piety. Here there is no need for the cithara, or for stretched strings, or for the plectrum, or for art, or for any instrument; but, if you like, you may yourself become a cithara, mortifying the members of the flesh and making a full harmony of mind and body. For when the flesh no longer lusts against the Spirit, but has submitted to its orders and has been led at length into the best and most admirable path, then will you create a spiritual melody." (Chrysostom, 347-407, Exposition of Psalms 41, (381-398 A.D.) Source Readings in Music History, ed. O. Strunk, W. W. Norton and Co.: New York, 1950, pg. 70.)

CLEMENT "Leave the pipe to the shepherd, the flute to the men who are in fear of gods and intent on their idol worshipping. Such musical instruments must be excluded from our wingless feasts, for they are more suited for beasts and for the class of men that is least capable of reason than for men. The Spirit, to purify the divine liturgy from any such unrestrained revelry chants: 'Praise Him with sound of trumpet," for, in fact, at the sound of the trumpet the dead will rise again; praise Him with harp,' for the tongue is a harp of the Lord; 'and with the lute. praise Him.' understanding the mouth as a lute moved by the Spirit as the lute is by the plectrum; 'praise Him with timbal and choir,' that is, the Church awaiting the resurrection of the body in the flesh which is its echo; 'praise Him with strings and organ,' calling our bodies an organ and its sinews strings, for front them the body derives its Coordinated movement, and when touched by the Spirit, gives forth human sounds; 'praise Him on high-sounding cymbals,' which mean the tongue of the mouth which with the movement of the lips, produces words. Then to all mankind He calls out, 'Let every spirit praise the Lord,' because He rules over every spirit He has made. In reality, man is an instrument arc for peace, but these other things, if anyone concerns himself overmuch with them, become instruments of conflict, for inflame the passions. The Etruscans, for example, use the trumpet for war; the Arcadians, the horn; the Sicels, the flute; the Cretans, the lyre; the Lacedemonians, the pipe; the Thracians, the bugle; the Egyptians, the drum; and the Arabs, the cymbal. But as for us, we make use of one instrument alone: only the Word of peace by whom we a homage to God, no longer with ancient harp or trumpet or drum or flute which those trained for war employ." (Clement of Alexandria, 190AD The instructor, Fathers of the church, p. 130)

EUSEBIUS "Of old at the time those of the circumcision were worshipping with symbols and types it was not inappropriate to send up hymns to God with the psalterion and cithara and to do this on Sabbath days... We render our hymn with a living psalterion and a living cithara with spiritual songs. The unison voices of Christians would be more acceptable to God than any musical instrument. Accordingly in all the churches of God, united in soul and attitude, with one mind and in agreement of faith and piety we send up a unison melody in the words of the Psalms." (commentary on Psalms 91:2-3)
It is noteworthy to consider the early church's understanding of this matter. Most of them spoke Greek as their native language, yet they didn't take psalmos to mean an absolute requirement for the use of an instrument. History tells us that instrumental music was not introduced into Christian worship until the 7th century AD.

3)
I have consulted 19 different bible translations and none of them rendered psalmos as anything other than "sing". Bible translators are by definition experts in both Greek and English. If psalmos requires the use of instruments, why wouldn't they have rendered the translations to show this?

I think it stands to reason that while psalmos may sometimes require the use of an instrument, this is not always so.

adean
Jan 15th 2009, 10:02 PM
Also here are other definitions of music.

mu·sic [ myzik (http://encarta.msn.com/encnet/features/dictionary/Pronounce.aspx?search=Music) ]

noun Definition: 1. sounds that produce effect: sounds, usually produced by instruments or voices, that are arranged or played in order to create an effect

2. art of arranging sounds: the art of arranging or making sounds, usually those of musical instruments or voices, so as to create an effect

3. type of music: music of a particular type, place, time, instrument, or style
http://encarta.msn.com/xImages/dictionary/bullet.gifhttp://encarta.msn.com/xImages/trans.gifrock-and-roll music

4. written music: written notation indicating the pitch, duration, rhythm, and tone of notes to be played

5. pleasing sound: a sound or group of sounds that creates a desired effect
http://encarta.msn.com/xImages/dictionary/bullet.gifhttp://encarta.msn.com/xImages/trans.gifthe music of the wind in the trees

I don't mean to criticize, but I don't think you can get a valid definition of bible words from a modern dictionary. You have to use a greek lexicon to determine how words were used and what they meant in the new testament.

Language changes a lot over time. :idea:

Butch5
Jan 16th 2009, 01:20 AM
kf4zmt---If I understood you correctly, you were implying that because some of the psalms stated which instruments to use, then we are to use them today. There are several practices that they refer to that were only lawful under the old testament. The point I was trying to make is that just because a psalm mentions doing something, that doesn't mean it applies to Christians today. Animal sacrifices are one example. Christians cannot sing, "I will offer unto thee burnt offerings..." (Ps 66:15). Christians can't sing, "Break thou the arm of the wicked..." (Ps 10:15). We are to pray for our enemies.

Regarding a specific prohibition against instruments in the NT consider the following OT commands:
observe the three annual feasts commanded under the old law
abstain from wearing mixed garments of linen and wool
no labor on Saturday (the sabbath)
leave a double portion to your firstborn in your will
can't charge someone interest on a loan
These are all things commanded under the old law just like instrumental music was commanded in the OT. There is no prohibition against these things in the NT. Are we to conclude that we should still be doing these things because the NT didn't tell us to stop? I don't know of anyone who thinks so. If we don't need a passage forbidding these in the NT, why would we need one for instrumental music? The silence of the scriptures does not authorize anything.


No one said we have to use music, the question is, is it forbidden. Concerning the above, are we forbidden to observe the three feasts? Are we forbidden from mixing garments? Are we forbidden to do no labor on the Sabbath? We can observe these if we choose to do so. So how does this show that instruments were forbidden?



kf4zmt---I'm not a greek scholar, but I believe your definition of psalmos is a good one. However, consider the following.

1)
If psalmos always requires striking the chords of a musical instrument, then we haven't obeyed the commands of Eph 5:19 or Col 3:16 unless we have ALL engaged in singing AND playing. If you are correct, then everyone must both sing and play to comply with this command.

2)
If psalmos always requires striking the chords of a musical instrument, then the early church was never obedient to this command. Consider these quotes from the early church "fathers".
AQUINAS "Our church does not use musical instruments, as harps and psalteries, to praise God withal, that she may not seem to Judaize." (Thomas Aquinas, Bingham's Antiquities, Vol. 3, page 137)

AUGUSTINE "musical instruments were not used. The pipe, tabret, and harp here associate so intimately with the sensual heathen cults, as well as with the wild revelries and shameless performances of the degenerate theater and circus, it is easy to understand the prejudices against their use in the worship." (Augustine 354 A.D., describing the singing at Alexandria under Athanasius)

CHRYSOSTOM "David formerly sang songs, also today we sing hymns. He had a lyre with lifeless strings, the church has a lyre with living strings. Our tongues are the strings of the lyre with a different tone indeed but much more in accordance with piety. Here there is no need for the cithara, or for stretched strings, or for the plectrum, or for art, or for any instrument; but, if you like, you may yourself become a cithara, mortifying the members of the flesh and making a full harmony of mind and body. For when the flesh no longer lusts against the Spirit, but has submitted to its orders and has been led at length into the best and most admirable path, then will you create a spiritual melody." (Chrysostom, 347-407, Exposition of Psalms 41, (381-398 A.D.) Source Readings in Music History, ed. O. Strunk, W. W. Norton and Co.: New York, 1950, pg. 70.)

CLEMENT "Leave the pipe to the shepherd, the flute to the men who are in fear of gods and intent on their idol worshipping. Such musical instruments must be excluded from our wingless feasts, for they are more suited for beasts and for the class of men that is least capable of reason than for men. The Spirit, to purify the divine liturgy from any such unrestrained revelry chants: 'Praise Him with sound of trumpet," for, in fact, at the sound of the trumpet the dead will rise again; praise Him with harp,' for the tongue is a harp of the Lord; 'and with the lute. praise Him.' understanding the mouth as a lute moved by the Spirit as the lute is by the plectrum; 'praise Him with timbal and choir,' that is, the Church awaiting the resurrection of the body in the flesh which is its echo; 'praise Him with strings and organ,' calling our bodies an organ and its sinews strings, for front them the body derives its Coordinated movement, and when touched by the Spirit, gives forth human sounds; 'praise Him on high-sounding cymbals,' which mean the tongue of the mouth which with the movement of the lips, produces words. Then to all mankind He calls out, 'Let every spirit praise the Lord,' because He rules over every spirit He has made. In reality, man is an instrument arc for peace, but these other things, if anyone concerns himself overmuch with them, become instruments of conflict, for inflame the passions. The Etruscans, for example, use the trumpet for war; the Arcadians, the horn; the Sicels, the flute; the Cretans, the lyre; the Lacedemonians, the pipe; the Thracians, the bugle; the Egyptians, the drum; and the Arabs, the cymbal. But as for us, we make use of one instrument alone: only the Word of peace by whom we a homage to God, no longer with ancient harp or trumpet or drum or flute which those trained for war employ." (Clement of Alexandria, 190AD The instructor, Fathers of the church, p. 130)

EUSEBIUS "Of old at the time those of the circumcision were worshipping with symbols and types it was not inappropriate to send up hymns to God with the psalterion and cithara and to do this on Sabbath days... We render our hymn with a living psalterion and a living cithara with spiritual songs. The unison voices of Christians would be more acceptable to God than any musical instrument. Accordingly in all the churches of God, united in soul and attitude, with one mind and in agreement of faith and piety we send up a unison melody in the words of the Psalms." (commentary on Psalms 91:2-3)

It is noteworthy to consider the early church's understanding of this matter. Most of them spoke Greek as their native language, yet they didn't take psalmos to mean an absolute requirement for the use of an instrument. History tells us that instrumental music was not introduced into Christian worship until the 7th century AD.


I am a strong supporter of the Ante-Nicene fathers, of which is Clement of Alexandria. Which of those that you have posted, has stated that instruments were forbidden? As a matter of fact Clement, while he did not advocate the use of instruments said this,

The Early Church Fathers: Ante-Nicene Fathers Volume 2

In the present instance He is a guest with us. For the apostle adds again, "Teaching and admonishing one another in all wisdom, in psalms, and hymns, and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your heart to God." And again, "Whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and His Father." This is our thankful revelry. And even if you wish to sing and play to the harp or lyre, there is no blame. Thou shalt imitate the righteous Hebrew king in his thanksgiving to God. "Rejoice in the Lord, ye righteous; praise is comely to the upright," (Ps. 33:1-3) says the prophecy. "Confess to the Lord on the harp; play to Him on the psaltery of ten strings. Sing to Him a new song." And does not the ten-stringed psaltery indicate the Word Jesus, who is manifested by the element of the decad?

If you look at what the church fathers said, usually the reason the were against instruments was because to the heathen use of instruments. Jesus said be in the world not of it, and the early Christians took those words very literally. Paul said flee from all appearance of evil. So, if the heathen were using instruments for the purposes of war, then it is most likely that the early Christians would not use musical instruments. As they would want to flee from all appearance of evil. Another thing to consider is this, up until about the year 325, the church was under persecution. Who in their right mind is going to blow a trumpet or play instruments when people are trying to kill them.



kf4zmt---3)
I have consulted 19 different bible translations and none of them rendered psalmos as anything other than "sing". Bible translators are by definition experts in both Greek and English. If psalmos requires the use of instruments, why wouldn't they have rendered the translations to show this?

English translations? When you consult a translation, you get someones opinion of what the Greek text says



kf4zmt---I think it stands to reason that while psalmos may sometimes require the use of an instrument, this is not always so.

OK, so how do you know which Paul meant?

kf4zmt
Jan 16th 2009, 03:25 PM
No one said we have to use music, the question is, is it forbidden. Concerning the above, are we forbidden to observe the three feasts? Are we forbidden from mixing garments? Are we forbidden to do no labor on the Sabbath? We can observe these if we choose to do so. So how does this show that instruments were forbidden?

Christians are subject to the new testament, not the old. The new testament is silent about all of the above. The silence of the scriptures does not grant authority. An argument was made by the Hebrew writer based upon this principle in Hebrews 7:14.

In this context, the writer has noted that there has been a change in the priesthood. The priesthood of the Old Testament has given way to the better priestly system of the New Testament. It is then suggested that Christ could not serve as a priest. Why not? Because Jesus was descended from the tribe of Judah, and, as to that tribe, Moses spake nothing (i.e., the law was silent; there was no authority) concerning the priesthood. The silence of the law was prohibitive!

If God does not authorize a religious practice, it is forbidden.


I am a strong supporter of the Ante-Nicene fathers, of which is Clement of Alexandria. Which of those that you have posted, has stated that instruments were forbidden? As a matter of fact Clement, while he did not advocate the use of instruments said this,

The Early Church Fathers: Ante-Nicene Fathers Volume 2

In the present instance He is a guest with us. For the apostle adds again, "Teaching and admonishing one another in all wisdom, in psalms, and hymns, and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your heart to God." And again, "Whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and His Father." This is our thankful revelry. And even if you wish to sing and play to the harp or lyre, there is no blame. Thou shalt imitate the righteous Hebrew king in his thanksgiving to God. "Rejoice in the Lord, ye righteous; praise is comely to the upright," (Ps. 33:1-3) says the prophecy. "Confess to the Lord on the harp; play to Him on the psaltery of ten strings. Sing to Him a new song." And does not the ten-stringed psaltery indicate the Word Jesus, who is manifested by the element of the decad?

If you look at what the church fathers said, usually the reason the were against instruments was because to the heathen use of instruments. Jesus said be in the world not of it, and the early Christians took those words very literally. Paul said flee from all appearance of evil. So, if the heathen were using instruments for the purposes of war, then it is most likely that the early Christians would not use musical instruments. As they would want to flee from all appearance of evil. Another thing to consider is this, up until about the year 325, the church was under persecution. Who in their right mind is going to blow a trumpet or play instruments when people are trying to kill them.

I'll concede this point to you, it would seem that these writings do indicate that they weren't issuing a prohibition against the use of instruments. Instead they were simply stating that they didn't use instruments.


English translations? When you consult a translation, you get someones opinion of what the Greek text says

If this is true, then all English speaking people are basing their salvation on someone elses opinion and we had all better become experts in Koine Greek if we want facts.

No, the English translations are reliable. The fact that they are all translated so similarly is a testament to the fact that translation isn't guess work or opinions but a tedious and methodical process which conveys the thoughts of the original language.


OK, so how do you know which Paul meant?

Easy, since the new testament is silent about instruments being used in worship to God, I know he directed us to use a cappella music.

In addition, if psalmos requires the use of an instrument, then unless we all sing and play, then we haven't obeyed the command. I think this shows the absurdity (no disrespect intended) of the line of thought that insists that psalmos requires the use of instruments.

doubledcattle
Jan 16th 2009, 03:30 PM
The new testament is silent about all of the above.


I don't remember seeing anything in the NT about listening to podcasts

or if you are on this computer to glorify God and lift up his name isn't that a form of worship? I see nowhere in the NT that says get on the internet and glorify me. It must have been silent about these issues yet you do both.

What is the difference?

uric3
Jan 16th 2009, 03:44 PM
I don't remember seeing anything in the NT about listening to podcasts

or if you are on this computer to glorify God and lift up his name isn't that a form of worship? I see nowhere in the NT that says get on the internet and glorify me. It must have been silent about these issues yet you do both.

What is the difference?

That was covered back in post #125 about specific and generic commands.

doubledcattle
Jan 16th 2009, 03:52 PM
Understood, but there is not a specific command telling us NOT to use musical instruments. You guys can look at it how you want, but as I have said many of times, I will play my drums and guitar on Sunday morning, listsen to my Christian music in the car and at home and never feel like I am being a disappointment to God.

Now. I think this thread should close. It's a bunch of the same old things over and over with none of us being convinced by the other.

Praise God I don't have to answer to any of you guys. :rofl:

adean
Jan 16th 2009, 05:41 PM
Understood, but there is not a specific command telling us NOT to use musical instruments. You guys can look at it how you want, but as I have said many of times, I will play my drums and guitar on Sunday morning, listsen to my Christian music in the car and at home and never feel like I am being a disappointment to God.

Now. I think this thread should close. It's a bunch of the same old things over and over with none of us being convinced by the other.

Praise God I don't have to answer to any of you guys. :rofl:

I would say this topic has been discussed very thoroughly. On the other hand, someone else might have something new to say that would add to our understanding of this subject.

If you no longer wish to participate in this thread that is your prerogative. Allow others the opportunity to discuss as they wish. When everyone is finished with this topic, it will fade away like thousands of other threads have.

doubledcattle
Jan 16th 2009, 05:54 PM
I would say this topic has been discussed very thoroughly. On the other hand, someone else might have something new to say that would add to our understanding of this subject.

If you no longer wish to participate in this thread that is your prerogative. Allow others the opportunity to discuss as they wish. When everyone is finished with this topic, it will fade away like thousands of other threads have.


10-4 Good Buddy

Butch5
Jan 16th 2009, 06:51 PM
kf4zmt---Christians are subject to the new testament, not the old. The new testament is silent about all of the above. The silence of the scriptures does not grant authority. An argument was made by the Hebrew writer based upon this principle in Hebrews 7:14.

In this context, the writer has noted that there has been a change in the priesthood. The priesthood of the Old Testament has given way to the better priestly system of the New Testament. It is then suggested that Christ could not serve as a priest. Why not? Because Jesus was descended from the tribe of Judah, and, as to that tribe, Moses spake nothing (i.e., the law was silent; there was no authority) concerning the priesthood. The silence of the law was prohibitive!
If God does not authorize a religious practice, it is forbidden.

If you look at that passage in context it is not speaking of authority. It is contrasting the old priesthood with the new. He tells how the old priesthood was not sufficient and that it has been changed, that one after the order of Melchisedec should come.
I don't think this speaks to your prohibition form silence. However, consider this, if you are correct, then David should have been reprimanded by God, because he was not authorized to use musical instruments. Just as there is no permission for silence, there is no prohibition form silence.


kf4zmt---If this is true, then all English speaking people are basing their salvation on someone else's opinion and we had all better become experts in Koine Greek if we want facts.

Well, the first part is correct, many people are basing their salvation on someone else's opinion. We don't have to be experts, however we would do well, to investigate where the English translations struggle.


kf4zmt---No, the English translations are reliable. The fact that they are all translated so similarly is a testament to the fact that translation isn't guess work or opinions but a tedious and methodical process which conveys the thoughts of the original language.

When a translation is made, the translator has to choose which English words to use in place of the Greek, also the Greek was written in continuous sentences without punctuation, so the translator must decide where the punctuation should go. This can determine the out come of the translation.




kf4zmt---Easy, since the new testament is silent about instruments being used in worship to God, I know he directed us to use a cappella music.

This is fallacious, you just admitted that Psalmos can mean to play an instrument, how then can you say the NT is silent on the issue? What is your basis for saying that Paul's use of Psalmos, does not mean musical instruments? You can't say the NT is silent, unless you can prove that Paul did not intend instruments to be used when he wrote the word Psalmos.


kf4zmt---In addition, if psalmos requires the use of an instrument, then unless we all sing and play, then we haven't obeyed the command. I think this shows the absurdity (no disrespect intended) of the line of thought that insists that psalmos requires the use of instruments.

Again, I didn't say instruments were required. This also would not be the first time that Christians haven't obeyed, however, I don't think Paul meant that we have to make sure that we have every type of song every time we worship. He was not writing and instruction book to the Colossians or the Ephesians, he was exhorting them.

kf4zmt
Jan 16th 2009, 07:43 PM
If you look at that passage in context it is not speaking of authority. It is contrasting the old priesthood with the new. He tells how the old priesthood was not sufficient and that it has been changed, that one after the order of Melchisedec should come.
I don't think this speaks to your prohibition form silence.

Yes, the change in the priesthood is the topic of discussion. The Hebrew writer makes part of his point by using the principle that the silence of the scriptures did not authorize Jesus to be a priest while still on Earth. That the silence of the scriptures doesn't authorize anything is valid and was a recognized principle by the writer of Hebrews.


However, consider this, if you are correct, then David should have been reprimanded by God, because he was not authorized to use musical instruments. Just as there is no permission for silence, there is no prohibition form silence.

David is not to be reprimanded. God commanded the use of instruments in the old law.
2Ch 29:25 And he set the Levites in the house of the LORD with cymbals, with psalteries, and with harps, according to the commandment of David, and of Gad the king's seer, and Nathan the prophet: for so was the commandment of the LORD by his prophets.

Well, the first part is correct, many people are basing their salvation on someone else's opinion. We don't have to be experts, however we would do well, to investigate where the English translations struggle.

When a translation is made, the translator has to choose which English words to use in place of the Greek, also the Greek was written in continuous sentences without punctuation, so the translator must decide where the punctuation should go. This can determine the out come of the translation.

Yes, but still, the translations are reliable.


This is fallacious, you just admitted that Psalmos can mean to play an instrument, how then can you say the NT is silent on the issue? What is your basis for saying that Paul's use of Psalmos, does not mean musical instruments? You can't say the NT is silent, unless you can prove that Paul did not intend instruments to be used when he wrote the word Psalmos.

Because not one translation that I can find translates the word to mean anything other than sing. The translators are the experts. We are not. If they believed that the word should be translated "sing" as opposed to "sing and play" then they must have had a strong reason. On what basis do we dispute them? Since singing is the only kind of music mentioned, the new testament is silent about instruments in worship.


Again, I didn't say instruments were required. This also would not be the first time that Christians haven't obeyed, however, I don't think Paul meant that we have to make sure that we have every type of song every time we worship. He was not writing and instruction book to the Colossians or the Ephesians, he was exhorting them.

You gave Thayers definition of psalmos and implied that it included the use of instruments. If you say that psalmos requires the use of an instrument, then that is the same as saying they are required all the time. So, by your logic, no one has obeyed unless they both sing and play.

Butch5
Jan 16th 2009, 09:46 PM
kf4zmt---Yes, the change in the priesthood is the topic of discussion. The Hebrew writer makes part of his point by sing the principle that the silence of the scriptures did not authorize Jesus to be a priest while still on Earth. That the silence of the scriptures doesn't authorize anything is valid and was a recognized principle by the writer of Hebrews.

I disagree that his statement is addressing the authority issue, he is saying that the new priesthood is not after the line of Aaron but after the order of Melchisedec. The issue is not whether or not a priest can come from the tribe of Judah, the issue was whether or not the old priesthood was sufficient. It wasn't, and as the writer points out, not only was the priesthood changes, the law also was changed, and the tribe was changed.


kf4zmt---David is not to be reprimanded. God commanded the use of instruments in the old law.
2Ch 29:25 And he set the Levites in the house of the LORD with cymbals, with psalteries, and with harps, according to the commandment of David, and of Gad the king's seer, and Nathan the prophet: for so was the commandment of the LORD by his prophets.


David here did not have authorization to use musical instruments, or to move the ark, yet when he did so God did not reprimand him.

1 Chronicles 13:1-14 ( KJV ) 1And David consulted with the captains of thousands and hundreds, and with every leader. 2And David said unto all the congregation of Israel, If it seem good unto you, and that it be of the LORD our God, let us send abroad unto our brethren every where, that are left in all the land of Israel, and with them also to the priests and Levites which are in their cities and suburbs, that they may gather themselves unto us: 3And let us bring again the ark of our God to us: for we inquired not at it in the days of Saul. 4And all the congregation said that they would do so: for the thing was right in the eyes of all the people. 5So David gathered all Israel together, from Shihor of Egypt even unto the entering of Hemath, to bring the ark of God from Kirjathjearim. 6And David went up, and all Israel, to Baalah, that is, to Kirjathjearim, which belonged to Judah, to bring up thence the ark of God the LORD, that dwelleth between the cherubims, whose name is called on it. 7And they carried the ark of God in a new cart out of the house of Abinadab: and Uzza and Ahio drave the cart. 8And David and all Israel played before God with all their might, and with singing, and with harps, and with psalteries, and with timbrels, and with cymbals, and with trumpets.
9And when they came unto the threshingfloor of Chidon, Uzza put forth his hand to hold the ark; for the oxen stumbled. 10And the anger of the LORD was kindled against Uzza, and he smote him, because he put his hand to the ark: and there he died before God. 11And David was displeased, because the LORD had made a breach upon Uzza: wherefore that place is called Perezuzza to this day. 12And David was afraid of God that day, saying, How shall I bring the ark of God home to me? 13So David brought not the ark home to himself to the city of David, but carried it aside into the house of Obededom the Gittite. 14And the ark of God remained with the family of Obededom in his house three months. And the LORD blessed the house of Obededom, and all that he had.


kf4zmt---Yes, but still, the translations are reliable.
Because not one translation that I can find translates the word to mean anything other than sing. The translators are the experts. We are not. If they believed that the word should be translated "sing" as opposed to "sing and play" then they must have had a strong reason. On what basis do we dispute them?


So, do we blindly accept what they say, What does that matter when we see that the dictionaries give, play a musical instrument as a definition? If you look it up, to sing is usually at the end of the list.


kf4zmt---You gave Thayers definition of psalmos and implied that it included the use of instruments. If you say that psalmos requires the use of an instrument, then that is the same as saying they are required all the time. So, by your logic, no one has obeyed unless they both sing and play.

First of all, I said that I believe Paul was merely exhorting them, not giving them a command on how to worship. Therefore, they could play psalms, and/or sing hymns, and/or sing spiritual songs. I did not say that they were required to play psalms every time the got together for worship.

You not yet provided a suitable answer as to why, we must understand Paul's use of psalmos to exclude musical instruments.

adean
Jan 16th 2009, 10:21 PM
butch5 & kf4zmt,
Your both saying the same things over and over in slightly different ways. Give it a break. :P

doubledcattle
Jan 19th 2009, 01:10 PM
Your both saying the same things over and over in slightly different ways. Give it a break. :P




I would say this topic has been discussed very thoroughly. On the other hand, someone else might have something new to say that would add to our understanding of this subject.


I say if they want to keep going then let them keep going. It is you porocative not to come back to this thread if that is what you desire.