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houseman
Dec 17th 2008, 04:33 AM
I got a question that I would like you to answer. Watch this link first then answer this question. What if you're wrong?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6mmskXXetcg

Moderator Edit: Please Always include a description of all links posted. Thank you. The link above is Richard Dawkins, a leading Atheist responding to the question: "What if you're wrong?" Dawkins turns the question around and asks the Christian, "What if You're Wrong?"

markinro
Dec 17th 2008, 04:45 AM
I got a question that I would like you to answer. Watch this link first then answer this question. What if you're wrong?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6mmskXXetcg

Interesting...lets look at the all the possibilities.

God does not exist
1. What has the believer lost ? Nothing
2. What has the believer gained ? Nothing
3. What has the unbeilever lost ? Nothing
4. What has the unbeliever gained ? Nothing

God exists
1. What has the believer lost ? Nothing
2. What has the believer gained ? Everthing
3. What has the unbeilever lost ? Everything
4. What has the unbeliever gained ? Nothing

houseman
Dec 17th 2008, 04:54 AM
I love it how every religious person uses Pascal's wager to try to get their point across. It does you no good. If someone in Africa believes in a local god an not yours is he wrong? Correct me if I'm wrong but if I don't believe in your god then I got to purgatory right? Or burn in hell? Would this African as well? He is a believer just not in your god. If he is right then it may be you that burns in hell. So tell me this what exactly does "believer" mean to you?

angel_fire
Dec 17th 2008, 05:18 AM
I got a question that I would like you to answer. Watch this link first then answer this question. What if you're wrong?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6mmskXXetcg
Hi. I would like to help.
First thing I do as a believer is check the facts. We have many facts to go by. Did Jesus really live on earth??? Is history correct, or is history lying..
Second thing I did was check the Prochecies, everyone talks about the Bible mentioning the future before it happened.
Third thing I did, which was the most important to me at least was to Ask God to Show himself to you. I am not talking about a physical appearance, rather something else that deturmines he is really real.
God if you are real, will you do something, show me something, let me know your real??? He will if you really seek him.

Ask yourself this, why would a 33 year old man die on a cross??? Why would a man in the prime of his life decide to die the most painful and horrific death???
Jesus had a choice you know, not only from his Father, but Jesus could have said, "Hey you guys, I was just kidding, I dont want to be beating, and hung on a cross. "
Jesus could have denied he was Gods son, but he didnt.
Jesus must have been terrified at the thought of having nails driven through his hands and ankes, yet he went on.

Read the Bible, look up stuff you dont understand, and ask God to open your eyes and heart to his word, so you can better understand it. It will amaze you, and shock you.
The Apostles, again, I ask you this, most if not all of the Apostles died horrific deaths just like Christ. Heck, Paul was Crucified upside down. Why would these men die like that for something that is not real??? Think about it!!!!!
You are doing the right thing by asking these questions, afterall, it is dealing with forever.
The other religions are wrong because they havent been educated by the right one. When a wise person listens, they learn.
Check this out.
James died by the sword of King Herod.
Mathew was killed by a sword in Ethiopia.
John was boiled in a huge vat of oil, however he survived but he spent the rest in prison.
Jesus brother James was thrown 100 feet off a cliff cause he refused to deny Christ, he survived the fall but not the beating that soon followed.
Bartholomew was flayed to death by a whip.

And it doesnt stop there.

tt1106
Dec 17th 2008, 05:27 AM
What if I am wrong? I have spend the last two years solidifying a relationship with my children that was not there prior to my conversion. I have become closer to my wife of 20 years than I thought possible considering how close we were before. I have friends of all colors and on many nations.
I have fed the homeless.
I have clothed the homeless.
I have caught Ironmen finishers as they crossed the finish line for the first time.
By and large even though there are non-christians interested in serving their fellow man, let's not kid ourselves most non-christians are pretty well devoted to taking care of themselves. At least I was prior to becoming saved.
It is the same argument all over again. Non-Christians see Christians and say, but look what you have given up. I say to you, Embrace Christ and see what you have GAINED. I mean beyond your salvation.
You will be given Peace. You will be given an understanding of unconditional love like you have never felt before. You will be given rest in a world that doesn't allow it.
Yes, the true disciple of Christ suffers for his faith, but it is worth every moment.
If I am wrong (which I am not) then I will have served and been rewarded a thousand times over and I will have no regrets.

angel_fire
Dec 17th 2008, 05:32 AM
I love it how every religious person uses Pascal's wager to try to get their point across. It does you no good. If someone in Africa believes in a local god an not yours is he wrong? Correct me if I'm wrong but if I don't believe in your god then I got to purgatory right? Or burn in hell? Would this African as well? He is a believer just not in your god. If he is right then it may be you that burns in hell. So tell me this what exactly does "believer" mean to you?
I ask this, does that Local God have 6,000 years of history to back it up???
Does that Local God foretell the future 100% accurate all the time?
Does that Local God promise eturnal life afterwards??

When I find a young man worshipping a clay figure, I tell him its just clay, why not worship the maker of the clay.

dljc
Dec 17th 2008, 05:50 AM
Jesus gave us two commandments to live by, they are as follows.

Matthew 22:
36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?

37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

38 This is the first and great commandment.

39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

Most atheists I've talked to on this board have said they believe the second commandment is a good teaching by Jesus, and something we all could live by.

My question to you is. Where is that "love" in the way Richard Dawkins answered this woman who asked the question? There was no love in his response. He despised this woman for challenging him. So who would you rather follow Richard Dawkins, or Christ?

markinro
Dec 17th 2008, 10:56 AM
I love it how every religious person uses Pascal's wager to try to get their point across. It does you no good. If someone in Africa believes in a local god an not yours is he wrong? Correct me if I'm wrong but if I don't believe in your god then I got to purgatory right? Or burn in hell? Would this African as well? He is a believer just not in your god. If he is right then it may be you that burns in hell. So tell me this what exactly does "believer" mean to you?

Ok, lets look at how God has stated the same question.

24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

25 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.

26 For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?

tango
Dec 17th 2008, 11:05 AM
I got a question that I would like you to answer. What if you're wrong?


If I'm wrong I've spent my life following something needlessly and hopefully become a better person as a result. I'm willing to take that chance.

Did you consider, what if you're wrong?

We are quite literally willing to bet our lives on being right. Are you willing to bet with those stakes on what you believe?

Brother Mark
Dec 17th 2008, 12:17 PM
How can I be wrong? God speaks to me. He comforts me. He guides me. He has changed me. He interacts with me on a daily basis. I know he exists because of all that he has personally done in my life.

Gregg
Dec 17th 2008, 02:00 PM
I love it how every religious person uses Pascal's wager to try to get their point across. It does you no good. If someone in Africa believes in a local god an not yours is he wrong? Correct me if I'm wrong but if I don't believe in your god then I got to purgatory right? Or burn in hell? Would this African as well? He is a believer just not in your god. If he is right then it may be you that burns in hell. So tell me this what exactly does "believer" mean to you?

I did not look at the link. I also could not believe based on Pascal's wager. I did want the truth, but I also wanted it on my terms. Long story short. For me, I got on my knees and asked God, "If you are there, show me what you want me to believe and I will follow." He answered my prayer. I am glad that you are here and asking what you need to ask. I found out that God is not afraid of the hard questions, even if sometimes I am.

watchinginawe
Dec 17th 2008, 02:30 PM
I got a question that I would like you to answer. Watch this link first then answer this question. What if you're wrong?Hello houseman. Welcome to Bibleforums. If "houseman" has to do with the TV show "House", then know that my wife is a big fan. :)

Here are my thoughts about the link of Richard Dawkins, the Patron Saint of atheism, and his comments about "what if you're wrong?". ;)

My first thought is: What society was Richard Dawkins raised in that sealed his atheist beliefs? :hmm: He offers that one's view about God is basically formed by cultural influences. I believe you will find that Richard Dawkins believes that the cultural influence that made him an atheist is science, and more succinctly evolutionism. Guys like Dawkins go so far as to state that all science hinges on the "fact" of evolutionism.

Now his presentation seems to categorize belief in any religion that claims the supernatural to be equal with believing in "juju" or something like that in the bottom of the ocean, or the great flying spaghetti monster, or some other humerous apparition of his mind. Basically, in his view, religion of any sort equals ignorance. Ignorance is the historic bond of man. Ignorance shed is atheism; and thus enlightenment and freedom.

Interestingly enough, Dawkins is a scientist and employs science as his vehicle for shedding man's "ignorance" of the supernatural and thus God. Understand this. Science is a set of knowledge regarding the natural. In other words, science doesn't even consider knowledge of the supernatural in the "founding documents" of science per se. There is nothing wrong with that since science also declares a method for obtaining knowledge about the natural which doesn't nor can't work for the supernatural. However, that doesn't mean that science declares there isn't the supernatural.

Now Richard Dawkins seemingly has decided that science is a method of "truth" for gathering knowledge about EVERYTHING there is. Since the supernatural isn't something that science can obtain knowledge about, Dawkins has decided that the supernatural therefore must not exist. I hope you can see the subtle differences there between what science intends and how Dawkins extends it.

The conclusion that all that is seen in the universe has come about completely naturally basically excludes the possibility of God. Now Dawkins makes humerous the possibility of the flying spaghetti monster by employing the thought of incredulity, but he doesn't see anything askew in his knowledge by looking at himself and deciding how grand nature is for producing such a thing. You see, in my opinion, Richards believes in his own version of the "flying spaghetti monster" called nature. He expects us to just "believe" that nature could produce a Richard Dawkins all on it's own? :lol: :lol: :lol:

Here is a scripture that I liken that notion to. This happened in the wilderness when Moses was leading Israel out of Egypt. While Moses was on the mount receiving the commandments of God, the people became restless and asked Aaron, Moses' brother, to "make" them gods. Aaron makes a golden calf to be the god that brought them out of Egypt. Look at what Aaron tells Moses about how the golden calf came about:

Exodus 32:23 For they said unto me, Make us gods, which shall go before us: for as for this Moses, the man that brought us up out of the land of Egypt, we wot not what is become of him.

24 And I said unto them, Whosoever hath any gold, let them break it off. So they gave it me: then I cast it into the fire, and there came out this calf.

Richard believes that the substance of nature was thrown into the cosmic furnaces and there came out this man named Richard Dawkins. Richard believes that what makes his version credible is time. Insert enough time and nature can do anything, even producing a golden calf in the wilderness. :)

God Bless!

Ascender
Dec 17th 2008, 02:31 PM
What if...makes for good science fiction but not reality.

CS Lewis clearly advocated that God is not interested in possibilites but in what is actual.

Seek the Truth -- It is out there and it will set you free.

houseman
Dec 17th 2008, 02:52 PM
I ask this, does that Local God have 6,000 years of history to back it up???
Does that Local God foretell the future 100% accurate all the time?
Does that Local God promise eturnal life afterwards??

When I find a young man worshipping a clay figure, I tell him its just clay, why not worship the maker of the clay.

I fail to see what history backs you up. You take your history form a book that was written long ago in a language that was not english. If you try to translate any language some of the meaning is lost. Some monks have attempted to correct the bible to fit modern language but still meaning is lost in translation. Also history can be distorted. Read 1984 by Geroge Orwell and you will see an extreme example of this. The only history I have confidence in to be true is that of my own memory and even that is not to be trusted. Through a process called constructive processing the mind will fill memory gaps with other information to complete the story in a sence. Because of this and because of how history can be distorted, it is ignorant to take any history with that much faith. This and who is to say that his religion isn't backed with thousands of years of history? Why is a tale of a god that is passed from fater to son by word of mouth any less legitimate then the bible?

houseman
Dec 17th 2008, 03:00 PM
It is the same argument all over again. Non-Christians see Christians and say, but look what you have given up. I say to you, Embrace Christ and see what you have GAINED.[/quote]

I do not look at Christians and say what have you given up. I look at Christians and say why not budda? Or Alla? The fact that you are Christian is completely dependent on culture. If you were born in India or Pakistan you would have very likely not chosen Christ as your savior. The point of asking what if you are wrong was to point out the fact that there are hundreds of religions many just as long lasting and legitimate as yours. Most of these religions believe that their god, or set of god, is the only one yet you are so confidnet that it is yours. Why?

houseman
Dec 17th 2008, 03:03 PM
How can I be wrong? God speaks to me. He comforts me. He guides me. He has changed me. He interacts with me on a daily basis. I know he exists because of all that he has personally done in my life.


You speak to god and you're religious. God speaks to you and you are hallucinating. You might want to seek help.

jesuslover1968
Dec 17th 2008, 03:04 PM
Every person knows that God exists, even if they say they don't. Just because they say He doesn't exist, that doesn't make Him unreal. Just because someone worships a false god, that doesn't make it real.

houseman
Dec 17th 2008, 03:07 PM
Hi. I would like to help.
First thing I do as a believer is check the facts. We have many facts to go by. Did Jesus really live on earth??? Is history correct, or is history lying..
Second thing I did was check the Prochecies, everyone talks about the Bible mentioning the future before it happened.
Third thing I did, which was the most important to me at least was to Ask God to Show himself to you. I am not talking about a physical appearance, rather something else that deturmines he is really real.
God if you are real, will you do something, show me something, let me know your real??? He will if you really seek him.


My problem with your religion is not that you worship a god but that you claim his words to be fact. Yes history frequently lies, is twisted, "mistranslated", and the like.

houseman
Dec 17th 2008, 03:08 PM
Every person knows that God exists, even if they say they don't. Just because they say He doesn't exist, that doesn't make Him unreal. Just because someone worships a false god, that doesn't make it real.

Who are you human to decide what god is real and false?

tango
Dec 17th 2008, 03:12 PM
I do not look at Christians and say what have you given up. I look at Christians and say why not budda? Or Alla? The fact that you are Christian is completely dependent on culture. If you were born in India or Pakistan you would have very likely not chosen Christ as your savior. The point of asking what if you are wrong was to point out the fact that there are hundreds of religions many just as long lasting and legitimate as yours. Most of these religions believe that their god, or set of god, is the only one yet you are so confidnet that it is yours. Why?

This is only true to an extent. For me the first question was simple, "does God exist at all?". Having decided on the balance of probabilities that God must exist, the next question was what form God took, i.e. should I be looking for a relationship with the Christian God, or with Allah, Buddha, Krishna, or any other so-called deities.

The key thing is that the Bible is consistent, both with itself and with history. That alone sets it apart from many other faiths.


You speak to god and you're religious. God speaks to you and you are hallucinating. You might want to seek help.

You said in your answer to "Are you a Christian" that you are seeking Christ. Why do you feel the need to make snide remarks like this?

houseman
Dec 17th 2008, 03:16 PM
I did not look at the link. I also could not believe based on Pascal's wager. I did want the truth, but I also wanted it on my terms. Long story short. For me, I got on my knees and asked God, "If you are there, show me what you want me to believe and I will follow." He answered my prayer. I am glad that you are here and asking what you need to ask. I found out that God is not afraid of the hard questions, even if sometimes I am.
Perhaps I need to consult a psychology textbook on this one. The fist thing is called a self-fulfilling prophecy. This is where people tend to act in a way that makes their prediction come true. The second is called a fallacy of positive instances. This is when people tend to remember or notice things that confirm our expectations and forget the rest of the information. This means that instead of sitting at home playing video games you will decide to take a walk outside to think more about it (self-fulfilling prophecy) then you meet a man that brings you to jesus (fallacy of positive instances) and you see it as a sign from god. This does not make it true. Your brain percieved it to be true because that is what you were looking for.

moonglow
Dec 17th 2008, 03:19 PM
I got a question that I would like you to answer. Watch this link first then answer this question. What if you're wrong?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6mmskXXetcg

Interesting how he never answered the question....:rolleyes:

I agree with the other...first I know God so I know I am not wrong...

But lets pretend I am wrong....what have I lost? Nothing. I have gained everything...my life is better, fuller...I have learned many great things in the bible that I use in my life now...without those things my life would be but an empty shell...and meaningless. I would be selfish, self centered, rarely thinking of others...well basically be like I was before I was a Christian..miserable. So if I was wrong, I still gained SO much! I sure wouldn't want to be as angry and cynical as Dawkins who is wasting his life by spending it going around attacking our faith. You would think if he truly believed their was no God, he wouldn't be wasting his time doing this but actually living some kind of a life. There are many things I don't believe in, but I don't go on tours talking them down, or writing books talking them down or putting up websites talking them down. Why would I? What a waste of time. I don't understand people like him at all.

But I guess I should be glad he does what he does as he actually proves the bible is true. In fact all the aggressive atheist do...

Matthew 10

22 And you will be hated by all for My name’s sake. But he who endures to the end will be saved.

Luke 6:21-23
21 Blessed are you who hunger now,
For you shall be filled.
Blessed are you who weep now,
For you shall laugh.
22 Blessed are you when men hate you,
And when they exclude you,
And revile you, and cast out your name as evil,
For the Son of Man’s sake.
23 Rejoice in that day and leap for joy!
For indeed your reward is great in heaven,
For in like manner their fathers did to the prophets.

John 15:17-19

The World’s Hatred

18 “If the world hates you, you know that it hated Me before it hated you. 19 If you were of the world, the world would love its own. Yet because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you.


If the atheists truly believed their was no God, they wouldn't waste their time. I know people who don't believe in God, that go about their business...they don't bother anyone...don't care who believes what...they are indifference. These people I think show more conviction in saying they believe there is no God by their indifference. In other words I am more convinced they really think there is no God, then I am with those that rail against Him. How can you rail against something you don't think is there? That just makes no sense. But this is what Dawkins does. Its like the saying, 'me think thou protest too much'....

Those the yell the loudest they didn't do it...(someone charged with a crime) actually make people think they did do it by overly protesting. Same thing with these types of hard core atheist. The louder they yell...the more they convince us they DO know there is a God...they just don't like it.

tango
Dec 17th 2008, 03:20 PM
Perhaps I need to consult a psychology textbook on this one. The fist thing is called a self-fulfilling prophecy. This is where people tend to act in a way that makes their prediction come true. The second is called a fallacy of positive instances. This is when people tend to remember or notice things that confirm our expectations and forget the rest of the information. This means that instead of sitting at home playing video games you will decide to take a walk outside to think more about it (self-fulfilling prophecy) then you meet a man that brings you to jesus (fallacy of positive instances) and you see it as a sign from god. This does not make it true. Your brain percieved it to be true because that is what you were looking for.

If only life were that simple. When I came back to God the idea scared me and I really didn't want it to be true. I'd spent 15 years of my life based on the "fact" that it wasn't true and the last thing I wanted to do was to admit to myself that I'd been living a lie for so long.

So while I was out looking for things that would confirm my own worldview, every which way I turned I was confronted with things that did the exact opposite.

houseman
Dec 17th 2008, 03:23 PM
If I'm wrong I've spent my life following something needlessly and hopefully become a better person as a result. I'm willing to take that chance.

Did you consider, what if you're wrong?

We are quite literally willing to bet our lives on being right. Are you willing to bet with those stakes on what you believe?
I have considered what if I am wrong and I am willing to live with the fact that I may be even when the evidence says that I am not wrong. I was not raised against religion but in the absence of it. This forced me to reason for myself what I felt what is real. I decided that religion was the easy way out and that it is harder to believe that this may be it then to synthesise a god to make me feel better.

Brother Mark
Dec 17th 2008, 03:27 PM
You speak to god and you're religious. God speaks to you and you are hallucinating. You might want to seek help.

How can you be so sure? ;)

moonglow
Dec 17th 2008, 03:33 PM
I have considered what if I am wrong and I am willing to live with the fact that I may be even when the evidence says that I am not wrong. I was not raised against religion but in the absence of it. This forced me to reason for myself what I felt what is real. I decided that religion was the easy way out and that it is harder to believe that this may be it then to synthesise a god to make me feel better.

Actually there is more evidence for God then against Him..it takes more 'faith' to not believe, then to believe. Maybe you ought to check out this book:

I Don't Have Enough Faith to Be an Atheist (http://www.impactapologetics.com/product.asp?cookiecheck=yes&P_ID=264)

That is if you are really seeking and not here just to convince us we are wrong...this is the wrong board for that kind of thing.

Gregg
Dec 17th 2008, 04:07 PM
Perhaps I need to consult a psychology textbook on this one. The fist thing is called a self-fulfilling prophecy. This is where people tend to act in a way that makes their prediction come true. The second is called a fallacy of positive instances. This is when people tend to remember or notice things that confirm our expectations and forget the rest of the information. This means that instead of sitting at home playing video games you will decide to take a walk outside to think more about it (self-fulfilling prophecy) then you meet a man that brings you to jesus (fallacy of positive instances) and you see it as a sign from god. This does not make it true. Your brain percieved it to be true because that is what you were looking for.

It has been a long long time since I studied psychology (1975). I was armed with many "tools" that "if there was a God" would have to overcome before I would believe. I was not so concerned about Christianity so much. In fact, I didn't think if God existed, that the Christians were getting it right. Too many rules and too legalistic for an all loving God. I would have chosen that God of love, the one that everybody gets a free pass. At the time of my seeking, I was living in a Jewish community (I am not Jewish) and met a lot of really nice people. God couldn't possibly want them in hell. Anyway, I needed to find out if there even was a God, and then find out what he wanted.

What is the mechanism that makes you want to seek?

dljc
Dec 17th 2008, 04:15 PM
My problem with your religion is not that you worship a god but that you claim his words to be fact. Yes history frequently lies, is twisted, "mistranslated", and the like. What you are not seeing here is the bigger picture. And neither does RD. The fact that the Bible was translated and can be found all over the world today. Just like Christians exist all over the world. That's where his argument falls down into the mud.

To say that the only reason someone believes what they believe has to do with culture is a fallacy and is a "take off" from his theory on the "Virus of the Mind" and how we compare to computers. He left out a very valuable piece of information in this theory. Language. Let me ask you some thing, can a Linux or Unix based system get a virus written for a Microsoft operating system? If culture had anything to do with it, you wouldn't be an atheist would you? You live in area where religion is practiced (no matter where you live). What makes you and RD so much different from the rest of the world? Or are you confirming that Atheism is a religion?

markinro
Dec 17th 2008, 04:21 PM
It is the same argument all over again. Non-Christians see Christians and say, but look what you have given up. I say to you, Embrace Christ and see what you have GAINED.

I do not look at Christians and say what have you given up. I look at Christians and say why not budda? Or Alla? The fact that you are Christian is completely dependent on culture. If you were born in India or Pakistan you would have very likely not chosen Christ as your savior. The point of asking what if you are wrong was to point out the fact that there are hundreds of religions many just as long lasting and legitimate as yours. Most of these religions believe that their god, or set of god, is the only one yet you are so confidnet that it is yours. Why?[/quote]

Ah and there's the rub. Religion is not christanity. I mentioned this in another thread.

Religion (buddism, catholicism and even atheism) is based on what man does for God (salvation through works). Christianity is based SOLELY on what God has done for man - namely, dying for our sins.

LUKE 2
11 For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord.
12 And this shall be a sign unto you; Ye shall find the babe wrapped in swaddling clothes, lying in a manger.
13 And suddenly there was with the angel a multitude of the heavenly host praising God, and saying,
14 Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace, good will toward men.

Not from one person to another person but from God to mankind. The christian faith is identifying with Jesus on the cross - laying down our own cross, being reborn (i.e. resurrected) and following Him.

Its a free gift but you need to swallow your pride and realize that without a relationship (something that God has wanted with you from the time you were born), you will truly die.

moonglow
Dec 17th 2008, 04:42 PM
You speak to god and you're religious. God speaks to you and you are hallucinating. You might want to seek help.

This is illogical though. Image millions upon millions of people having hallucinations...now we know those that suffer from hallucinations usually cannot function...they can't hold down jobs, raise a family, go to school...and so on...yet there are millions who do hear God and function in this world quite well...

You also try to shoot down history as evidence of proving the bible is true by saying its been twisted....but no matter how you try, you cannot claim archeological evidence is twisted to fit history. And there is plenty of archeological evidence showing the stories in the bible really did happen...the people, the places and the events.

Maybe instead of fighting against Christianity...find out for yourself if its true...instead of assuming its not.

Ascender
Dec 17th 2008, 05:16 PM
My problem with atheists is that they claim as fact what is factoid, as faith what is established practice and truth as what they envision it to be. Rather subjective in my opinion.

RevLogos
Dec 18th 2008, 06:26 PM
There was a time when I wrestled with the same question: If I were to become religious, what religion would I choose? So I did a comparative look at the major religions. I was actually concerned about the very thing Dawkins complains about: just because I was brought up in a largely Christian country did not mean Christianity was right.

One thing I did was to try to write down the attributes of God – according to me of course. I ran up against a brick wall. God would have to be perfection. I am imperfect. How could any god accept me, imperfect as I am, into some heaven that could only allow perfection?

Some of the eastern religions had the idea of living life over and over again until I get it right; Groundhog Day. Problem is Man is inherently imperfect. We’d never get it right – not to true perfection. Islam is an odd case in that their vision of heaven is not perfection at all. It’s basically a giant brothel and open bar in the sky. All the free sex you want, and all the alcohol you want without getting drunk. A heaven that actually appeals to the baser instincts of man (lower case man too). It was pretty obvious what Muhammad was really up to.

The idea of a meaningless existence didn’t sit well either. Life is too complex to have developed naturally from some primordial soup. There must be some purpose in it. Even Crick, an atheist who co-discovered DNA, said:

"An honest man, armed with all the knowledge available to us now, could only state that in some sense, the origin of life appears at the moment to be almost a miracle, so many are the conditions which would have had to have been satisfied to get it going."

Today Crick seems to be supporting “Panspermia”, the notion that life came to earth from alien beings. So this is the best atheism has to offer? Might as well believe in JuJu at the bottom of the ocean.

The more I studied atheism the more I realized it was equally faith based. It has all the attributes of any religion. It cannot be proven, it has its gospels, rituals, proselytizing websites, and it has its evangelists.

Christianity was the only faith that had a prayer of being right. ;) Even though I had no clue how a death on the cross could atone for MY sins.

But none of that convinced me. One does not come to faith intellectually. As a scientist and engineer, that was a stumbling block. So I put my studies aside and continued to live my meaningless life. For a while.

Dani H
Dec 18th 2008, 09:10 PM
You speak to god and you're religious. God speaks to you and you are hallucinating. You might want to seek help.

If I had a nickel for every time I've heard this ...


To address your OP:

What do I gain by believing in the reality of Jesus Christ? Peace, joy, happiness, love, and just an overall sense of the things here being very temporary but having something eternal and solid and wonderful, for the last 16 years, today, tomorrow, and forever. I gain not having to fear death, and not having to fear life, either. I gain a Friend who I never knew existed and Who has proven Himself to be faithful and loyal and exactly everything the Bible says He is. I gain no longer having to worry about the "what ifs" and driving myself paranoid over not knowing truth and just playing wild guessing games. Why guess when you can know?

What do I lose? A bunch of junk that I thought was important, and turns out is not.

Why not Allah? Why not Buddha? Why not all those other things that people search out to find peace? Because I've already tried those and nothing satisfied nor reached to the very depths of me to produce something solid and lasting.

Why Jesus? Because He is real, and the Bible makes sense and has some real explanations to address the craziness of this thing we call life here on Earth.

"Religion" as you call it, is not the easy way out. It's far simpler to create our own boundaries based upon whatever logic we have chosen that makes sense to us, than it is to follow those set forth by an outside force, i.e. God, which we had nothing to do with setting up because they are what they are and we cannot change them. Loving somebody when you would rather hit them over the head with a blunt object, is not the easy way out, is it? Being forgiving and merciful when somebody does wrong against you is also not something I would call the easy way out. Would you? Praying for someone who has wronged us and blessing someone who curses us and seeks our destruction, is that the easy way out?

Because you see, if we really believe in Jesus then we have to obey what He says, and we will be held to that. :)

I would encourage you to REALLY research Christianity, for what it is, resarch the person of Jesus Christ for Who He is, and drop the fables you have heard from others, by the wayside, and be objective and really think about it on your own, not based on hearsay, but on your own research. If you say that you are seeking Him, then He has alredy promised that He would be found by you. We find Him, because He finds us first, since we're the ones who are lost, not God. :)

Athanasius
Dec 21st 2008, 06:01 PM
I got a question that I would like you to answer. Watch this link first then answer this question. What if you're wrong?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6mmskXXetcg

If I am wrong, then I am wrong. I am assuming you're an atheist? Coming from you this question is innocuous; if I am wrong... Who cares? Though this is not the question you were interested in asking.



I look at Christians and say why not budda? Or Alla? The fact that you are Christian is completely dependent on culture. If you were born in India or Pakistan you would have very likely not chosen Christ as your savior. The point of asking what if you are wrong was to point out the fact that there are hundreds of religions many just as long lasting and legitimate as yours. Most of these religions believe that their god, or set of god, is the only one yet you are so confidnet that it is yours. Why?

Why not Buddha? Well, he didn't claim to be God, first of all. The concept of Karma is a very unforgiving one. Actually I would say it's bound Indian culture to an extreme degree, as has the concept of reincarnation. Buddhisms and Hinduisms answers in regards to such questions as "evil" in the world are also highly insufficient -- in effect denying there are such things as "evil", "good" and even reality. Everything just "is", as they would say. So, while Buddhism and Hinduism may have hit upon different truths, they are not the whole truth and that's not good enough.

The idea of Allah (which is the Arabic word for God, not the specific name of the god of Islam) is illogical to the point of complete philosophical defeat. The Qur'an only adds to the problem.

Now, is religion completely dependent upon culture? No, not completely, though I would be foolish to say culture doesn't play a role. From my own experience, I know many people from Pakistan, India, Saudi Arabia, Africa, etc., who chose Christ as their savior.

Christianity doesn't claim to be true because of "how long" it's been around, pointing out that there are religions that have been around longer than Christianity is simply acknowledged by Christians and we move on; it has no bearing on our belief.

Do I believe there are hundreds of religions as legitimate as Christianity? Nope - I don't. I believe Christianity is superior to all other religions. I also believe you can know this sufficiently. Why am I confident in this? Study, initially.

Let me ask you a question: is atheism in the West invalid because it's a choice dependent on culture?

Bob Carabbio
Dec 23rd 2008, 06:11 PM
Why would we bother to watch the video? - it says nothing of value or significance. It's only the intellectual reasonings of another human to whom the "Kingdom of God" is invisible (He has a nice accent though).

The simple fact is that IF I'm wrong, and my successful and blessed life as a Christian, and my peaceful, and somewhat expectant attitude toward my impending death proves to be wrong, and I just "disappear" into oblivion like a snuffed out candle flame - then being "wrong" didn't matter at all. I lost nothing, and had 66 years of good life.

IF I'm RIGHT - then "Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him."

So - no brainer.

YOU can do whatever you please, it's a free country.

Warrior4God
Dec 25th 2008, 12:46 AM
I'm not wrong for believing in God, but if I were, I have hurt nobody and only made my life more peaceful, moral, and worthwhile before dying and going off into nonexistence. When this world continues it's descent into the hand basket of hell that it's hurtling towards, and a terror that mankind has never known before shows up in the form of a ruling anti-christ, judgment will shortly come thereafter. It will be too late to "know God." Mankind will have had the chance and lost it. Hell will be the final destination. Sorry. God's rules, not mine. ;)

ShadowWolf
Dec 25th 2008, 06:57 AM
I definitely agree with the last poster. Let's say, hypotheically I'm wrong.

What will I have actually lost if I follow a God who teaches to love your neighbor as yourself, forgive your enemies, don't let hatred into your heart, please others before yourself, don't cheat on your wife, take care of your body, respect your father and mother, help the needy, visit the incarterated, take care of the sick, but most importantly, LOVE. If I were a good Christian, and tried to follow those to a tee. Even if Jesus wasn't who he said he was (which is not what I believe, just Hypothetically), than how have I not made the world a better place?

markdrums
Dec 28th 2008, 03:03 AM
I fail to see what history backs you up. You take your history form a book that was written long ago in a language that was not english. If you try to translate any language some of the meaning is lost. Some monks have attempted to correct the bible to fit modern language but still meaning is lost in translation. Also history can be distorted. Read 1984 by Geroge Orwell and you will see an extreme example of this. The only history I have confidence in to be true is that of my own memory and even that is not to be trusted. Through a process called constructive processing the mind will fill memory gaps with other information to complete the story in a sence. Because of this and because of how history can be distorted, it is ignorant to take any history with that much faith. This and who is to say that his religion isn't backed with thousands of years of history? Why is a tale of a god that is passed from fater to son by word of mouth any less legitimate then the bible?


Have you done any research of your own?
Have you studied & looked into the number of ancient manuscripts of the Bible that are still available? Have you wondered if the texts that go back within a generation of the actual events, really say what today's Bible tells us?

I don't think you have.

I see the same questions / points being raised, that look as if they were copy/pasted from atheist websites.

If you do an HONEST, OPEN investigation about the evidence & reliabilty of the Bible, you'd discover that your current accusations are in error.

awestruckchild
Dec 28th 2008, 03:00 PM
To the op-

No amount of reading will do you any good and no amount of "apologetics" will convince you that something you have never seen exists. That is not how it works. Besides, just being convinced by debate will never be enough.

There is no way you can tell a blind person he is being willfully blind. A blind person is born that way. He didn't ask to be born that way and he didn't choose it. You aren't willfully blind, you are quite sane and if you weren't you could just as easily willfully choose to believe that dragons exist as you could believe God exists. You've never seen either one of them. So why would you approach the matter of dragons in a sane manner, i.e: I'll believe they exist when I see one, and then approach the matter of God in an unsane manner, i.e: I choose to believe He exists.

The real truth is, you can't believe God exists, truly believe and know, unless your blindness is cured. And only He can cure it by letting you see Him.

I don't know why He hasn't chosen to cure you, to give you your sight. It is something I struggle with a lot because there are people I know who are loads more naturally kind than I am, loads more naturally giving, loads more naturally humble, who have never been given their sight.

It is absurd for anyone to tell you, a spiritually blind man, that you are willfully choosing to be blind because no one can come to God unless He first draws them by letting them see.

monergist
Jan 1st 2009, 03:44 PM
I love it how every religious person uses Pascal's wager to try to get their point across. It does you no good. If someone in Africa believes in a local god an not yours is he wrong? Correct me if I'm wrong but if I don't believe in your god then I got to purgatory right? Or burn in hell? Would this African as well? He is a believer just not in your god. If he is right then it may be you that burns in hell. So tell me this what exactly does "believer" mean to you?

Doesn't your question beg for the Pascal's wager answer? What were you expecting?

tt1106
Jan 2nd 2009, 01:31 PM
The difference between Jesus and all the others is HE CLAIMED TO BE GOD
LOL....Nobody else says they were God. My Bible has been authenticated through other writings of that period that have been used to corroborate other historical texts. For instance, The antiquities of the Jews is considered to have been written by a highly regarded Jewish Scholar. many of the same texts that are in the Bible are in that book.
Jesus said he was of God and from God. No one has been able to prove otherwise in thousands of years. If he was not God, it should have been easy.
Instead it has been supported. People died for him and continue to do so.

Regarding local gods. I do believe that there are people in other nations, worshipping the one true God.

Romber
Jan 4th 2009, 11:15 PM
If I am wrong, oh well. I led my life in a moral, loving attitude. I die and thats it. I would lose absolutely nothing.

But what if you are wrong? Eternal suffering in hell. Living a lie your whole life.

How do you know Christianity is correct? Well first of all, you must be willing to have an open mind. If you don't nothing that you ever hear or read will effect you, as you come into the situation with a bias. The Bible and it's events can be confirmed by outside sources all through history. Even the dawn of civilization has archaeology to prove it's existence outside the bible. No matter how much you say history is twisted and the bible is just a stolen collection of myths and God is just a creation doesn't change the fact that God is quite real but you will always fail to acknowledge that until you open your mind up.