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Samsheep2
Dec 17th 2008, 07:21 PM
...this thread is started in the hope that we can look at a passage and spread out from there within the same subject.

John 19:11 Jesus answered, Thou couldest have no power at all against me, except it were given thee from above: therefore he that delivered me unto thee hath the greater sin.

Who wants to go first?

reformedct
Dec 17th 2008, 07:33 PM
i believe there are two aspects of sin

the essence of sin- i believe the essence of all sin is the same: evil rebellion against God. even though Adam just ate a fruit in the garden, it was not the act, but the essence of the act which caused it to be severe. Behind the scenes, the act declared: direct rebellion against the command of God.

that being said there is the law. Just as we have law, there is more intense punishment for some laws broken than others. Stealing may get you fined, while raping may get you killed

In the bible, many times God reminds mankind that they will be judged for every deed and thought.

I believe the difference between sins is based on the severity of punishment that will be recieved on the day o judgement for that sin.

Since God will judge every deed, the unsaved must suffer a specific punishment for each deed. Because of the essence and presence of sin they will be thrown in hell; and each one shall recieve a certain measure of torture inhell, according to the severity of each sin.

there is a verse that says it will be better for Sodom and Gommorah in that day than for you (or something like that)

Does that mean Sosdom and Gommorah are going to heaven? No

It means that your punishment will be worse than Sodom and Gommorahs

yea or nay?:hmm:

Bethany67
Dec 17th 2008, 07:34 PM
I'd say it was because Judas spent 3 years closely living with and following Jesus, so the betrayal didn't come from ignorance, it was done willfully and consciously.

Samsheep2
Dec 17th 2008, 08:39 PM
I'd say it was because Judas spent 3 years closely living with and following Jesus, so the betrayal didn't come from ignorance, it was done willfully and consciously.
I appreciate your answer and even though I see what you are saying it matters not since Judas was never saved and therefore being a natural man as Paul explained in 1Cor.2, ...well, shall we look at it:

1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man [like Judas] receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, [Judas fits this 110% along with all other lost church members] because they are spiritually discerned. Judas had the best teacher, was around the best believers, saw all the best miracles but still went to his own place.

Partaker of Christ
Dec 17th 2008, 10:12 PM
...this thread is started in the hope that we can look at a passage and spread out from there within the same subject.

John 19:11 Jesus answered, Thou couldest have no power at all against me, except it were given thee from above: therefore he that delivered me unto thee hath the greater sin.

Who wants to go first?

I don't think that this is referring to Judas, but Caiaphas the high priest.
It was Caiaphas the high priest, who had Jesus delivered to Pilate.

Samsheep2
Dec 18th 2008, 03:22 AM
I don't think that this is referring to Judas, but Caiaphas the high priest. It was Caiaphas the high priest, who had Jesus delivered to Pilate.

PT, that is a thought as far as chain of events goes - I like what bro. John Gill had to say:

...therefore he that delivered me unto thee, hath the greater sin; מן דילך, "than thine", as the Syriac version adds; and to the same purpose the Persic. Pilate had been guilty of sin already in scourging Christ, and suffering the Roman soldiers to abuse him; and would be guilty of a greater in delivering him up to be crucified, who he knew was innocent: but the sin of Judas in delivering him into the hands of the chief priests and elders, and of the chief priest and elders and people of the Jews, in delivering him to Pilate to crucify him, according to the Roman manner, were greater, inasmuch as theirs proceeded from malice and envy, and was done against greater light and knowledge; for by his works, miracles, and ministry, as well as by their own prophecies, they might, or must have known, that he was the Messiah, and Son of God: and it is to be observed, that as there is a difference in sin, and that all sins are not equal, the circumstances of things making an alteration; so that God's decree concerning the delivery of his Son into the hands of sinful men, does not excuse the sin of the betrayers of him.

BCF
Dec 18th 2008, 04:03 AM
...this thread is started in the hope that we can look at a passage and spread out from there within the same subject.

John 19:11 Jesus answered, Thou couldest have no power at all against me, except it were given thee from above: therefore he that delivered me unto thee hath the greater sin.

Who wants to go first?

IMHO, it wasn't Caiaphas the high priest, or the betrayal of Judas, who had Jesus delivered to Pilate. The one who is guilty for delivering Jesus to Pilate are all the people who voted to Crucify Jesus when Pilate asked the people who he should set free. Jesus or Barabbas.

It was the people who voted against Jesus who had the greater sin. Not just a few people.

Just MO.

Dave

bobbysmith
Dec 18th 2008, 04:29 AM
Hi... I am new but it seems you all are missing 2 important points. According to the law given to Moses there are different remedies for different sins in our physical realm. Period. And as far as the implication of The Christ Crucified, It was fortold and had to happen. It was pre- destined. The scripture you are talking about really does not apply to the greater sin/greater punishment debate.

Christ died for all sins. All. There is only one sin that is not forgivable. Go read and find it!!

Thanks

Samsheep2
Dec 18th 2008, 02:00 PM
IMHO, it wasn't Caiaphas the high priest, or the betrayal of Judas, who had Jesus delivered to Pilate. The one who is guilty for delivering Jesus to Pilate are all the people who voted to Crucify Jesus when Pilate asked the people who he should set free. Jesus or Barabbas.

It was the people who voted against Jesus who had the greater sin. Not just a few people.

Just MO.

Dave

Thanks for your answer and whether I agree or disagree matters not to me I do appreciate you taking part. Yes, all humanity in one way are other are guilty but all could not have committed the greater sin - for if that were the case there was no one left to commit the lesser ones and this would negate the need of a White throne judgment.

Thanks, Sam

Samsheep2
Dec 18th 2008, 02:19 PM
Hi... I am new but it seems you all are missing 2 important points. According to the law given to Moses there are different remedies for different sins in our physical realm. Period. And as far as the implication of The Christ Crucified, It was fortold and had to happen. It was pre- destined. The scripture you are talking about really does not apply to the greater sin/greater punishment debate. Christ died for all sins. All. There is only one sin that is not forgivable. Go read and find it!! Thanks
Hello and welcome to Bible Chat, a place I for one have hanged my Hat! I love, learn and lean as always to what saith the scriptures and even though at times it may seem/sound as if we get argumentative it is because we all feel strongly about what we believe.
Now, to answer your two important points if I may - we skip over Moses since that is not needed at the moment and come to............. #2. Does not apply to my original question you say!!! Goodness knows I thought this verse did???
John 19:11 Jesus answered, Thou couldest have no power at all against me, except it were given thee from above: therefore he that delivered me unto thee hath the greater sin.
Bobby, since you say this has nothing at all to do with degrees of sin then we shall await your scriptural explanation of "hath the greater sin"
By the way and this is just a thought to spice this up a bit:
There are those that believe because of the wording of this passage God had planned all this before any were ever born, so it was all His doings???
Isaiah 53:10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
Now mind you I do not believe that any more than i believe a lot of the reasons some have given about "the greater sin" but one thing we all should be able to agree on the bible is plain that there is a 'greater sin'.

Thanks, Sam

MacGyver
Dec 18th 2008, 02:21 PM
All sin is not equal, we all will be judged according to what we have done and rewarded or punished. First of all it is only common sense that God will punish someone differently who rapes and kill's a little child vs some who steals a candy bar. Not only common sense reveals that but also Scripture has many places where it teaches that there are different levels of sins.

Matt. 5:21 "You have heard that it was said to your ancestors, 'You shall not kill; and whoever kills will be liable to judgment.'
22 But I say to you, whoever is angry with his brother will be liable to judgment, and whoever says to his brother, 'Raqa,' will be answerable to the Sanhedrin, and whoever says, 'You fool,' will be liable to fiery Gehenna.
1John 5:16 If anyone sees his brother sinning, if the sin is not deadly, he should pray to God and he will give him life. This is only for those whose sin is not deadly. There is such a thing as deadly sin, about which I do not say that you should pray.
17 All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin that is not deadly.

Samsheep2
Dec 18th 2008, 02:37 PM
All sin is not equal, we all will be judged according to what we have done and rewarded or punished. First of all it is only common sense that God will punish someone differently who rapes and kill's a little child vs some who steals a candy bar. Not only common sense reveals that but also Scripture has many places where it teaches that there are different levels of sins.

Matt. 5:21 "You have heard that it was said to your ancestors, 'You shall not kill; and whoever kills will be liable to judgment.'
22 But I say to you, whoever is angry with his brother will be liable to judgment, and whoever says to his brother, 'Raqa,' will be answerable to the Sanhedrin, and whoever says, 'You fool,' will be liable to fiery Gehenna.
1John 5:16 If anyone sees his brother sinning, if the sin is not deadly, he should pray to God and he will give him life. This is only for those whose sin is not deadly. There is such a thing as deadly sin, about which I do not say that you should pray.
17 All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin that is not deadly.

Very good response and thanks, Sam

BCF
Dec 18th 2008, 08:09 PM
Thanks for your answer and whether I agree or disagree matters not to me I do appreciate you taking part. Yes, all humanity in one way are other are guilty but all could not have committed the greater sin - for if that were the case there was no one left to commit the lesser ones and this would negate the need of a White throne judgment.

Thanks, Sam

That's b/c I don't believe that their is any lesser sin. At least I can't find any such thing in the scripture. From what I gather from scripture sin is sin. There is no greater or lesser one. There is only sin.

To answer bobbysmith...first of all I don't believe that we have been introduced on the boards, so before I answer you I would like to extend my welcome to the boards to you...and let you know that I look forward to discussing the beautiful Word Of God With You.

In your comment bobbysmith you stated:


Christ died for all sins. All. There is only one sin that is not forgivable. Go read and find it!!


I agree. Yes, Christ did die for all sins, and there is only one sin that is unforgivable. That sin would be blaspheming of the Holy Spirit. Correct me if I am wrong with that.

Now let me ask you this question? Jesus being God according to scripture....and God being the Holy Spirit according to scripture....which would make up what we call the Trinity I believe....Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

My questions is this.....don't you think that those people voting Jesus to be Crucified rather then having him set free...was indeed an act of blaspheming the Holy Spirit?

I will wait for your reply.....

Dave

bobbysmith
Dec 20th 2008, 02:05 PM
Hello and thank you all for being so patient!

You are right about the sin!

As to the point about Jesus crucified, Interesting thought!

But remember when Jesus was talking to his deciples he said "I will be sending you a helper (comforter= which is the Holy Ghost)" refering to the verse in John 16:

7Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

8And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

9Of sin, because they believe not on me;

10Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;

11Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.

12I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.

13Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

14He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.


I think that the scriptures are clear that the Father, Son and Holy Ghost are separate... yet one.

But our reference (relationship)to them is different. For instance, if we could go to the father directly, why would we need Jesus? And yet we say they are one and the same.

Your point about them condeming Christ is a good one. I'm not sure I personally would say it is Blashpemy of the Holy Ghost though.

But that is what makes these forums so fun and interesting. I learn something new each time I read these forums!

Thanks

Bob

Bethany67
Dec 20th 2008, 02:41 PM
Your point about them condeming Christ is a good one. I'm not sure I personally would say it is Blashpemy of the Holy Ghost though.

Agreed. See Acts 2:

"Men of Israel, listen to this: Jesus of Nazareth was a man accredited by God to you by miracles, wonders and signs, which God did among you through him, as you yourselves know. 23This man was handed over to you by God's set purpose and foreknowledge; and you, with the help of wicked men, put him to death by nailing him to the cross.

36"Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ." 37When the people heard this, they were cut to the heart and said to Peter and the other apostles, "Brothers, what shall we do?"
38Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off—for all whom the Lord our God will call."

Ekeak
Dec 20th 2008, 03:01 PM
I'd say it was because Judas spent 3 years closely living with and following Jesus, so the betrayal didn't come from ignorance, it was done willfully and consciously.


I believe Judas was the son of perdition, and didn't have a choice.

tt1106
Dec 20th 2008, 03:22 PM
The words, a sin that does not lead to death, can be easily misunderstood. All sin ultimately leads to death, but the expression “that does not lead to death” (mē pros thanaton) should be understood in the sense, “not punished by death.” The distinction is between sins for which death is a rapid consequence and sins for which it is not.
When a Christian sees another Christian sin in a way that is not fatal, he is instructed to pray for him and God will give him life. (The word “God” is not in the original, but it is properly supplied, as in the NIV.) However, John reminded his readers that there is… sin that leads to (i.e., “is punished by”) death. There is no need for the word a before “sin.” John was not likely thinking of only one kind of sin. The New Testament example cited earlier (Act_5:1-11) was a flagrant violation of the sanctity of the Christian community. It is not necessary for a Christian to be absolutely sure which flagrant sins are punishable by swift death as long as he can recognize many which are not. He is commanded to pray regarding sins which are not punishable by swift death. Even for other sins, where a greater seriousness seems attached to them, Christians have the freedom to pray. John’s words about fatal sin are, I am not saying that he should pray about that. But this clearly does not forbid prayer even in the most serious cases. But naturally in such cases believers will submit their prayers to the will of God. In contrast, with regard to sins not punished swiftly by death, Christians, on the basis of this verse, should be able to pray with confidence.

(The Bible Knowledge Commentary)

bobbysmith
Dec 20th 2008, 03:40 PM
This is for Sam:

Sam, Hello and thank you for your comment. May we debate with love and in the interest of deepening our understanding of Christ.

First, you skipped the very place in the scriptures where the degree of sin('s) is dealt with. When God gave the law to moses there were certain remedies for certain sins. So in that aspect (physical sin = a certain punishment) there is a greater sin.

The start of this forum thread states "since all sins are not the same" which alludes to the fact that there are greater sins and lesser sins.

But my point is that there are no degree('s) to Christ's forgiveness of ALL sin. For if Christ's shed blood washes away all sin, then there is no greater sin in that respect.

The context of the use of the word sin (#266 in strongs) in John 19:11 has no bearing on our relationship with Christ as to the forgiveness of all sin despite the greaterness or lesserness of the sin. (is lesserness a word?)

You seem to like McGyvers expaination of degrees of punisment for the difference of sins, (though I'm not sure if that is a personal belief or if there is scripture to back it up)and the use of 1 John 5:16&17 which is talking about sin that leads to death and sin that does not.

First of all (in reference to 1 John 5:16), we either have to go back to Mosaic Law to find what sin('s) is/are worthy of death or we have to say that John is talking about a sinner who committed a sin that resulted in death. (Or possibly the third option which is Blasphemy of the Holy Ghost) I find it interesting that John tells the reader that he does not recomend we pray for one that has sinned a sin that is unto death.

{1 John 5:16=If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it. }

You may argue that there is a greater sin but my point is once again with the exception of the Blasphemy of the Holy Ghost, The greatness of the sin has no bearing as to our redemtion through Christ.

So what do you think?

Bob

Samsheep2
Dec 20th 2008, 06:35 PM
This is for Sam: Sam, Hello and thank you for your comment. May we debate with love and in the interest of deepening our understanding of Christ. Sure!


First, you skipped the very place in the scriptures where the degree of sin('s) is dealt with. When God gave the law to moses there were certain remedies for certain sins. So in that aspect (physical sin = a certain punishment) there is a greater sin. The start of this forum thread states "since all sins are not the same" which alludes to the fact that there are greater sins and lesser sins. But my point is that there are no degree('s) to Christ's forgiveness of ALL sin. For if Christ's shed blood washes away all sin, then there is no greater sin in that respect. Bob, I didn't say there were degree's to forgiveness of all sin in my previous posts as best I recall - since you have not my quote then allow me to explain it this way. Christ is explaining the degree of individual forgiveness in Luke 7:47 Wherefore I say unto thee, Her sins, which are many, are forgiven; for she loved much: but to whom little is forgiven, the same loveth little.
If one were to start at V36-50, then hopefully the difference will show.


First of all (in reference to 1 John 5:16), we either have to go back to Mosaic Law to find what sin('s) is/are worthy of death or we have to say that John is talking about a sinner who committed a sin that resulted in death. (Or possibly the third option which is Blasphemy of the Holy Ghost) I find it interesting that John tells the reader that he does not recomend we pray for one that has sinned a sin that is unto death. Bob, why would one have to go all the way back to the OT to prove what this means in the NT?


{1 John 5:16=If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it. }

You may argue that there is a greater sin but my point is once again with the exception of the Blasphemy of the Holy Ghost, The greatness of the sin has no bearing as to our redemtion through Christ. So what do you think? Bob, the very passage you quote has to do with that of degree - now I can't show that but He can but I will emphasise it.

Bob, I don't recall ever stating that it does have a bearing to redemption but what do you think is the purpose for the Bema?

Thanks, Sam

Partaker of Christ
Dec 22nd 2008, 03:05 PM
Bob, the very passage you quote has to do with that of degree - now I can't show that but He can but I will emphasise it.

Bob, I don't recall ever stating that it does have a bearing to redemption but what do you think is the purpose for the Bema?

Thanks, Sam

Hi Sam!
Great thread.

1John 5:16 If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.
1John 5:17 All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.

Is this to do with the degree of sin, or the type of sin?

IMHO, a sin that is unto death could be (a) unrepentant sin (b) predetermined sin, or both.

*We should note that this sin is 'seen'
There are some sins that some people will not acknowledge as sin. If he will not acknowledge it as sin, then how can they confess (admit, stick your hand up) sin.

There is sin that is predetermined (planned out) sin. Like Ananias and Sapphira planned to lie to the Holy Spirit.
Judas and the high priests, planned to have Jesus arrested and crucified.