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MacGyver
Dec 17th 2008, 07:55 PM
I wrote this article recently




70 Weeks Chart (http://www.mindomo.com/view.htm?m=545b2b1e03ad418c950006d40a916de0) - This chart has calculations from the Church Fathers and others

This prophesy is found in Daniel 9:21-27 (http://www.searchgodsword.org/desk/?language=en&query=daniel+9%3A21-27&section=0&translation=nas&oq=Genesis%252029%3A26%2520-%252028&new=1&sr=1&nb=ge&ng=29&ncc=29). It is a 490 year period that has led many scholars to go the great lengths to figure out exactly when it is. Some have thought that it is connected to the End Times, while others have figured that it has already been completely fulfilled.

The weeks are actually to be understood as a sabbatical measure of time in the Jewish calendar, which means that each week is a 7 year cycle (compare to Genesis 29:26-28 (http://www.searchgodsword.org/desk/?l=en&query=genesis+29%3A26-28&section=0&translation=nas&sr=1) ).


Of all the commentators that I have researched on this passage, Theodoret of Cyrus (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14574b.htm) provides the closest and most satisfactory explanation in my opinion. I have used his interpretation as a model for this critique, but I have some minor modifications that I have grafted in.





70 WEEKS CALCULATION IN BRIEF

The 70 weeks begins at the year of Artaxerxes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artaxerxes_I) somewhere around 465BC.

The 62nd week marked the time period around when the high priests were being appointed illegally and the death of John Hyrcanus II (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyrcanus_II) around 31BC. The calculation does not start here exactly at the death of Hyrcanus, but in this time period,so an exact calculation would be around 22BC.

The 69th week brings us to the Baptism of Jesus around 27AD.

The 70th week is broken up into two 3 and a half year periods. The first half is the 3 and half year ministry of Jesus until His Passion around 30AD, and the second half being the 3 and half year period of the Apostles establishing the Church starting in Jerusalem until around 33-34AD.

The abomination of desolations does not only pertain to the final week but also to the entire time until the end of the world (Daniel 9:27). Pilate brought images into Jerusalem in this time period, and the same kind of abominations will continue until the end of the world.





DANIEL 9:24-27 WITH COMMENTARY

note: This translation of the Scripture passage comes from the Greek Septuagint.

24 Seventy weeks have been determined upon your people, and upon the holy city, for sin to be ended, and to seal up transgressions, and to blot out the iniquities, and to make atonement for iniquities, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal the vision and the prophet, and to anoint the Most Holy.

70 weeks= 490 years: this began with Artaxerxes to the crucifixion of Christ and 3 and a half years beyond.

In this passage God allows Jerusalem to be rebuilt and a further set of years of living according to the Law. Here Jesus is referred to as Most Holy.




25 And you shall know and understand, that from the going forth of the command for the answer and for the building of Jerusalem until Christ the prince there shall be seven weeks, and sixty-two weeks; and then the time shall return, and the street shall be built, and the wall, and the times shall be exhausted.

The 7 weeks and 62 weeks makes 69 weeks, in turn makes 483 years. This would bring us to the bapism of Jesus by John the Baptist.





26 And after the sixty-two weeks, the anointed one shall be destroyed, and there is no judgment in him: and he shall destroy the city and the sanctuary with the prince that is coming: they shall be cut off with a flood, and to the end of the war which is rapidly completed he shall appoint the city to desolations.


"After the 62 weeks" takes us back 7 weeks from verse 25 which marks the end of when the high priests flourished and others were appointed illegally. This would bring us to Hyrcanus II, the last high priest of the Hasmoneans, whom Herod slew (31 BC). From this time period to the Baptism of Jesus is the period between the 62nd and the 69th week. and there is no judgment in him: And since those appointed illegally were called high priests, Daniel was right to say there was no judgment in him. If they are appointed but not anointed according to the Law, they take it upon themselves to act illegally. and he shall destroy the city and the sanctuary with the prince that is coming: The city will suffer and so will the illegal rulers who are to come; by the prince who is coming he is referring to the foreign kingdom and high priest.




27 And one week shall establish the covenant with many: and in the middle of the week my sacrifice and drink-offering shall be taken away: and on the temple shall be the abomination of desolations; and at the end of time an end shall be put to the desolation.

This one week/seven years, is the period of time beginning with the baptism of Jesus to that of the holy Apostles teaching in Jersualem after the Resurrection. The Lord preached for about 3 and a half years, and strengthened His disciples. But after the Resurrection, Ascension into Heaven, and the coming of the Holy Spirit, the Apostles spent the rest of the three and half years preaching in Jerusalem, working wonders and guiding many thousands, and they imparted the new covenant and caused them to enjoy the grace of baptism.


The abomination of desolations is to be understood as something that took place and continues to take place even until the end of time. It is not to be understood as a one time event in the past or future. Pilate was responsible for such an offense according to Josephus (Ant. 18.55-59) and Eusbeius (Hist. eccel. 2.6.3-4).


And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: The new covenant will be given to the believers in this week, and He will fill them with all power. and in the middle of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease: sacrifice according to the law will come to an end when the true sacrifice of the innocent lamb, who takes away the sin of the world, is offered; when it is finally offered, the other will cease. And for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate: that is, that formerally venerable and fearsome place will be made desolate. A sign of the desolation will be the introduction into it of certain images forbidden by the law; Pilate was guilty of this by introducing into the divine temple by night the imperial images in violation of the law (according to Josephus Ant. 18.55-59 an Philo The embassy to Caligula (http://www.livius.org/caa-can/caligula/caligula.html) 299-305). Read Philo and Josephus' quotes HERE (http://www.livius.org/pi-pm/pilate/pilate04.html)


In case the Jews should think the divine temple would recover its former splendor and glory, he consequently added..

even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate: until the end of the age the consumation of the desolation will continue, undergoing no change.






70 Weeks Chart (http://www.mindomo.com/view.htm?m=545b2b1e03ad418c950006d40a916de0) - This chart has calculations from the Church Fathers and others

vinsight4u8
Dec 18th 2008, 01:18 AM
You have missed the reason that Gabriel came to Daniel in chapter 9.

due to his supplications

Daniel was not praying to understand about the Messiah - as to when He was coming.

Daniel had been praying as to a he that would desolate Jerusalem - that Jeremiah had written about.
Jer. 25:11

Only a Babylonian king can fufill Daniel 9:27.

vinsight4u8
Dec 18th 2008, 01:21 AM
Daniel 9
due to his supplication

over the Jeremiah "he" shall desolate prophecy

70 weeks are determined

then notice how Verse 26 and Verse 27 both get mentioned as determined - yet have different endings

The final week is the determined time of the ac in it.

Cyberseeker
Dec 18th 2008, 06:40 AM
Hi MacGyver,

What you have here is good. The general understanding of the Church fathers is the conclusion I came to as well. 'Makes me feel good to know I'm in good company. ;)

An important point you mention is how they connected the weeks to the Jewish sabbatic cycle. This is often overlooked and it is not often realised that the '70 weeks' were actually a continuation of other 490 year eras which had already gone before.

Only problem with your chart, If you don't mind me pointing it out, is that its hard to figure how to scroll it past the end of my screen. Maybe its just me but I couldnt read all of it.

Have a good Christmas.

MacGyver
Dec 18th 2008, 12:11 PM
Hi MacGyver,

What you have here is good. The general understanding of the Church fathers is the conclusion I came to as well. 'Makes me feel good to know I'm in good company. ;)

An important point you mention is how they connected the weeks to the Jewish sabbatic cycle. This is often overlooked and it is not often realised that the '70 weeks' were actually a continuation of other 490 year eras which had already gone before.

Only problem with your chart, If you don't mind me pointing it out, is that its hard to figure how to scroll it past the end of my screen. Maybe its just me but I couldnt read all of it.

Have a good Christmas.Thanks!

I agree about the chart being hard to figure out, your not the first to say that. But the way you scroll around the chart is to put your arrow on the page itself and left click and hold the button down and then move the mouse around and it moves the entire page wherever you want, kinda like putting your finger on the page and moving it except it is your mouse.

By the way you will notice that there are files attached to the church fathers on the chart, you can click onto those files and read what they actually wrote concerning the 70 weeks.

MacGyver
Dec 18th 2008, 02:12 PM
Hi MacGyver,

What you have here is good. The general understanding of the Church fathers is the conclusion I came to as well. 'Makes me feel good to know I'm in good company. ;)

I always consult the Church Fathers, I love them!! They never let me down when I am studying Scripture. Glad to see others who see their value too!!

MacGyver
Dec 18th 2008, 03:35 PM
MacGyver

What bible translation are you using in your posts?

In your chart and in your thread it seems to have a Preterist overview, also because of the statement of “already been completely fulfilled.”

You said you were Catholic and I was wondering if this is the normal teaching of the Catholic Church?
I used the Greek Septuagint version of Daniel 9. As for the view that I have I am personally an Amillenialist for the most part. But in the first part of the article I mentioned that some have taken different postions on the 70 weeks, and one position is that it has been completely fulfilled. I do hold that position myself, but that does not mean that I am Preterist by any means, because being a Preterist means that you believe that all prophecy has been completely fullfilled, even the 2nd coming, and that is far from my belief. I personally believe that the 70 weeks of Daniel has been fulfilled, while the abomination of desolation is something that will continue to occur until the Antichrist, meaning that the abomination of desolation is not limited just to the 70 weeks nor is it a one time event.

Cyberseeker
Dec 18th 2008, 05:45 PM
OK, sussed how it works. :)

Your pop-up box shows Thedoret saying the final 3.5 years was from Christs death (April AD30) spanning the time the gospel was preached in Jerusalem. I agree.

But can you help with specifics? Is there chronological data anywhere (CF writings?) showing the end of the 'weeks?' For example, did the conversion of Cornelius mark the beginning of the gospel to the gentiles, and if so, was it October AD33?

MacGyver
Dec 18th 2008, 06:19 PM
OK, sussed how it works. :)

Your pop-up box shows Thedoret saying the final 3.5 years was from Christs death (April AD30) spanning the time the gospel was preached in Jerusalem. I agree.

But can you help with specifics? Is there chronological data anywhere (CF writings?) showing the end of the 'weeks?' For example, did the conversion of Cornelius mark the beginning of the gospel to the gentiles, and if so, was it October AD33?Wow, you are looking for specifics that I am very hesitant to attempt, my calculations were attempts to be estimates due to that is how ancient history is recorded for us. Tertullian calculated very meticulously but he did not come to that conclusion.

Cyberseeker
Dec 18th 2008, 06:39 PM
Eusebius mentioned that the destruction of the temple occurred forty years after Christs death. His death was the day after passover, so it can be reliably dated at April AD30. (7th April if we want to be fussy)

So it is only a matter of adding 3.5 years to that - October AD33. Did Tertullian mention anything that might give ol' Cyberseeker his xmas present in 2008? :pp

DurbanDude
Dec 23rd 2008, 07:41 AM
Macgyver, this is a view I hold to:

I prefer to use a 365 day year , rather than the Jewish 360 day year. The reason is that Daniel himself regulary used the universal calendar system, rather than the Jewish calendar to date various events. 9 times in the book of Daniel, he dates events according to the reign of kings. This dating system was based on the passing of the seasons (solar calendar) , which are 365 day years.

In addition Daniel interprets Jeremiah, showing that the desolation of Jerusalem is for seventy years. The actual desolation of Jerusalem was for seventy years from a seasonal year perspective (solar calendar). If Daniel was using the Jewish calendar here, he should have said 71 years because Jerusalem was desolate for 71 Jewish years and 70 solar years.

Based on this dating system that Daniel himself used, I use the decree of Artaxerxes in 458 BC as the starting point. This decree was written to the administrators and treasurers of the Israel region, but only delivered (issued) to them in the autumn of 458 BC. Exactly 483 years later Jesus started His ministry, in the autumn of 26 AD. Then 3.5 years later, in the spring of 30 AD Jesus was crucified, putting an end to sacrifice and offering.

So from the issuing of the decree in the autumn of 458 BC until the last ever spiritual sacrifice for sin (the crucifixion) that occurred in the passover (spring) of 30 AD, was exactly 486.5 years long, exactly as predicted by Daniel.

Note in all these calculations, there is no year 0. Our calendar jumps from 1 BC to 1 AD.

Autumn of 458 BC to Autumn of 1 AD is 458 years
Autumn of 1 AD to Autumn of 26 AD is 25 years
Autumn of 26 AD to spring of 30 AD is 3.5 years


Knowing that there is a future period of 3.5 years continuously predicted in Daniel and Revelation, that starts with the abomination, I believe the last 3.5 years of Daniel's 70 sevens is still unfulfilled.

Also, more than half the translations separate the identity of the one who confirms the covenant to the one who sets up the abomination. These translations remain unexplained by most commentators on Daniel 9:27.

If there was a hugely significant event in the autumn of 33AD that is significant enough to end the 490 year period for the Jews, then I would agree with preterists, however there is no event that can be dated to the autumn of 33AD to finish this timeline as expected. Then if you understand the final 3.5 year period so often mentioned in Daniel and Revelation, you can see this is a period of special protection for the Jews, when the gentiles get the mark of the beast , yet somehow there are at least 144 000 Jews that have still been UNMARKED and yet do not know Jesus until right at the end of the tribulation when Jesus comes. Why is this, what deal have the Jews made with the beast whereby the Jews are exempt from taking the mark, and therefore have a salvation choice even right until the second coming. The 144 000 are only sealed (sealed means to receive the Holy Spirit) at the end. In Revelation 12 we know that there is this 3.5 year period of special protection over Israel, and yet persecution of the saints.

CONCLUSION:
a) We have 486.5 years of significance for the Jews , then the crucifixion opens the way for salvation for everyone, gentile and Jew. No significant event happens at the 490th year, in the autumn of 33AD, especially not on the scale of those events expected to conclude the 490 year period (Daniel 9:24)

b) Then we have a 3.5 year period of significance for the Jews where there can be no salvation for those marked by the beast, the saints are persecuted, yet Israel is protected from Satan during this period and many Jews become christians at the end of the tribulation. (Rev 12, Joel , Rev: 144 000)

Easy math, 486.5 years until the crucifixion....... then a huge time gap ........ then 3.5 years until the second coming

486.5 + 3.5 = 490 years

Mark F
Dec 24th 2008, 08:23 PM
Durban Dude,

Not pickin' on you I question this:


Based on this dating system that Daniel himself used, I use the decree of Artaxerxes in 458 BC as the starting point.

Does this decree include all the qualifying events?

Dan 9:25

“ Know therefore and understand,
That from the going forth of the command
To restore and build Jerusalem
Until Messiah the Prince,
There shall be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks;
The street shall be built again, and the wall,
Even in troublesome times."

It is my understanding that Neh 2:8 is the only one that mentions both the city and the wall. Where is your reference?

Mark F
Dec 24th 2008, 08:57 PM
MacGyver,


In order for your theory to work you are taking the events of the
passage out of order.


9:26
After 62 (69 total, 7 first, then 62) Messiah is killed.

People of prince that shall come destroy the city and Sanctuary.

this is some 35-38 years later.

The end of the war and the awful things that happened to the Jews is
also mentioned. No mistaking that this is 70AD.


9:27
Then the mention of the week, taking away of the sacrifices and the AOD.


Where do you find the reason to insert this "week" between Messiah being
cut off and 70AD?



If Jesus is the one to make the covenant for one week did the Jews destroy the city and Sanctuary?

Psalms Fan
Dec 24th 2008, 10:02 PM
I agree that the 70 weeks were consecutive and not broken up by a gap, and that they were fulfilled at and around the time of Christ. Otherwise it is meaningless, and at worst a false prophecy (at best a prophecy that gives absolutely no consolation and gives no reference point for fulfillment).

Mark F, I disagree with you about the order of things.

Notice verses 24 and 25 and what events they cover. They both basically say the same thing, but in different words. Verse 24 tells us about the 70 weeks as a whole. Verse 25 tells us about the time period as well, but leaves out the last week. So verses 24 and 25 are parallel verses; they deal with the same thing.

Verses 26 and 27 are the same way. They both talk about the last week. Verse 26 refers to the last week by saying "after the sixty-two weeks" (which come after the first group of seven weeks). Verse 27 refers to the last week by saying that the covenant will be confirmed "for one week".

Notice also that the second half of both verses (26 and 27) give us some kind of result of that final week (and end, war, desolations, abominations).

So verses 26 and 27 are also parallel with each other. The first half of each touches on the final week, and the second half of each touches on what occurs after the last week.

So from verses 26 and 27 we know that the Messiah will be cut off (killed) during this week. We also know that he will confirm a covenant during this week, and that in the middle of it sacrifices and grain offerings will cease. Christ was put to death halfway through this final week, which, covenantally, put an end to the sacrificial system.

And the in the second half of both of those verses we come to the result of that final week: the destruction of the city and the temple.

Verses 24 and 25 are parallel and give an overview of the whole time period. Verses 26 and 27 are parallel in describing the 70th week and the disastrous results.

Mark F
Dec 24th 2008, 10:20 PM
Psalms Fan,


I agree that the 70 weeks were consecutive and not broken up by a gap, and that they were fulfilled at and around the time of Christ.

Then it failed.

“Seventy weeks are determined
For your people and for your holy city,
To finish the transgression,
To make an end of sins,
To make reconciliation for iniquity,
To bring in everlasting righteousness,
To seal up vision and prophecy,
And to anoint the Most Holy."

At the close of the 70 weeks all of these should have been fulfilled,
and I see sin all over the place.

Especially for the Jews seeing as the first sentence states this prophesy concerns them and Jerusalem.

Verses 24 & 25 say the same thing?

If this prophesy is fulfilled, when is the abomination of desolation that Jesus and Paul both literally referred to?

BroRog
Dec 24th 2008, 11:02 PM
At the close of the 70 weeks all of these should have been fulfilled, and I see sin all over the place.

Where does it say these need to be fulfilled? The angel says these will be "brought in", which sounds more like a beginning than a completion.

DurbanDude
Dec 25th 2008, 02:07 PM
Durban Dude,

Not pickin' on you I question this:

Does this decree include all the qualifying events?

Dan 9:25

“ Know therefore and understand,
That from the going forth of the command
To restore and build Jerusalem
Until Messiah the Prince,
There shall be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks;
The street shall be built again, and the wall,
Even in troublesome times."

It is my understanding that Neh 2:8 is the only one that mentions both the city and the wall. Where is your reference?

The decree must be a decree involving restoring and rebuilding Jerusalem.

No matter what decree you use , Jerusalem was rebuilt in troubled times therefore that part of the verse was fulfilled. Nowhere does it say the decree must mention the streets and the wall.

Prophet Daniel
Dec 25th 2008, 02:59 PM
Also happy to see someone believes it is a contineous period.

That when Daniel was studying Jeremiah the point was the 70days was 70 years contineous.Therefore the 70weeks also!

Well done! I wish that everybody would open their heart for the truth even if it doesn't fit the doctrine they were taught!

Prophet Daniel
Dec 25th 2008, 03:07 PM
Also happy to see someone believes it is a contineous period.

That when Daniel was studying Jeremiah the point was the 70days was 70 years contineous.Therefore the 70weeks also!

Well done! I wish that everybody would open their heart for the truth even if it doesn't fit the doctrine they were taught!

wpm
Dec 26th 2008, 06:16 PM
Psalms Fan,



Then it failed.

“Seventy weeks are determined
For your people and for your holy city,
To finish the transgression,
To make an end of sins,
To make reconciliation for iniquity,
To bring in everlasting righteousness,
To seal up vision and prophecy,
And to anoint the Most Holy."

At the close of the 70 weeks all of these should have been fulfilled,
and I see sin all over the place.


So when is sin ended?

RevLogos
Dec 27th 2008, 04:39 PM
Easy math, 486.5 years until the crucifixion....... then a huge time gap ........ then 3.5 years until the second coming

486.5 + 3.5 = 490 years

Easy math? If these were dollars, and this was your tax form, you'd be in jail by now.;)

Sacrifices for sin ended with Jesus. This is even recorded in the Talmud; God quit accepting the sacrifices.

There are three events in close proximity that could represent the end of the second 3.5 years, symbolizing the formal rejection of Jesus by the Jews and the change of course to bring the Gospel to the Gentiles. These are:


The vision of Peter telling him to bring the message to the Gentiles, whereupon he went and baptized Cornelius the Roman centurion,
The stoning of Stephen.
The conversion of Paul on the road to Damascus.

The rejection of Jesus by the Jews put in motion the destruction of Israel and Jerusalem in AD 70 leading to the Diaspora. Titus' army was the Abomination and Desolation standing in the temple. Although we could just as easily say the A&D in the temple was the Jewish priests, corrupt and godless.

I see no reason to believe there is a huge undefined gap within the prophesy. That would mean Daniel failed to prophesy of the destruction of the temple or the Diaspora. I don't think he missed that.

wpm
Dec 27th 2008, 05:57 PM
Easy math? If these were dollars, and this was your tax form, you'd be in jail by now.;)

Sacrifices for sin ended with Jesus. This is even recorded in the Talmud; God quit accepting the sacrifices.

There are three events in close proximity that could represent the end of the second 3.5 years, symbolizing the formal rejection of Jesus by the Jews and the change of course to bring the Gospel to the Gentiles. These are:


The vision of Peter telling him to bring the message to the Gentiles, whereupon he went and baptized Cornelius the Roman centurion,
The stoning of Stephen.
The conversion of Paul on the road to Damascus.
The rejection of Jesus by the Jews put in motion the destruction of Israel and Jerusalem in AD 70 leading to the Diaspora. Titus' army was the Abomination and Desolation standing in the temple. Although we could just as easily say the A&D in the temple was the Jewish priests, corrupt and godless.

I see no reason to believe there is a huge undefined gap within the prophesy. That would mean Daniel failed to prophesy of the destruction of the temple or the Diaspora. I don't think he missed that.

Yes, I believe history shows that the 490 years were congruent and sequential.

Those of us that take 490 years to mean exactly that do not have to prove that it is harmonious; we just have to accept what it states. We take it literally (1) because it happened literally, (2) there is no command to decapitate it and project it into the unknown. Seven multiplied by seventy comes to 490 cohesive years, not 2,490 broken up years and counting. There is no gap mentioned in the prophecy so there is no need or warrant to insert one in there.

Let’s use an illustration. If you were directed to go to the next state and told it was exactly a 490-mile journey (right down to the very yard). You were told that in-between the starting point and your destination you would pass two important landmarks, the first after 49 miles, which was accurate to the very yard. The next was a further 434 miles ahead (bringing your journey to 483 miles in total), which also occurred right down to the very yard. The journey's end would be a final 7 miles down the road from your second landmark, making your total journey 490 miles. Exactly half way between 483 miles and 490 (486 ½ miles) you would witness a monumental landmark that would surpass anything you have ever seen. How would you then feel if you were told when you hit the second landmark that your final location was still a possible 2,000+ miles down the road with NO exact finishing point? Such an idea would be totally unthinkable in the natural, but unprecedented in God's economy. God always fulfils His promises.

Cyberseeker
Dec 28th 2008, 12:21 AM
Good analogy Paul. Here's another one. Let us say you owed your credit card $490 dollars. Payment date arrives so you pay $483 dollars and tell the bank they can wait 2000 years for the last $7 dollars. :idea: Hmmm

Mark F
Dec 28th 2008, 01:54 AM
Easy math? If these were dollars, and this was your tax form, you'd be in jail by now.;)

Sacrifices for sin ended with Jesus. This is even recorded in the Talmud; God quit accepting the sacrifices.

There are three events in close proximity that could represent the end of the second 3.5 years, symbolizing the formal rejection of Jesus by the Jews and the change of course to bring the Gospel to the Gentiles. These are:


The vision of Peter telling him to bring the message to the Gentiles, whereupon he went and baptized Cornelius the Roman centurion,
The stoning of Stephen.
The conversion of Paul on the road to Damascus.

The rejection of Jesus by the Jews put in motion the destruction of Israel and Jerusalem in AD 70 leading to the Diaspora. Titus' army was the Abomination and Desolation standing in the temple. Although we could just as easily say the A&D in the temple was the Jewish priests, corrupt and godless.

I see no reason to believe there is a huge undefined gap within the prophesy. That would mean Daniel failed to prophesy of the destruction of the temple or the Diaspora. I don't think he missed that.

Daniel's prophesy did mention the destruction of the city and the sanctuary, and the war resulting in the dispora.

Then the prince shall confirm a covenant for a week---but in the middle of the week...

26 “ And after the sixty-two weeks
Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself;
And the people of the prince who is to come
Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary.
The end of it shall be with a flood,
And till the end of the war desolations are determined.
27 Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week;
But in the middle of the week
He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering.
And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate,
Even until the consummation, which is determined,
Is poured out on the desolate.”



How can the 70 weeks have been consecutive when Jesus Himself stated that the abomination of desolation would not occur until His return?

Dan 11 has the account but we know this happened before Jesus came. This passage has to be a type of the prince who is to come.

21 "And in his place shall arise a vile person, to whom they will not give the honor of royalty; but he shall come in peaceably, and seize the kingdom by intrigue. 22 With the force of a flood they shall be swept away from before him and be broken, and also the prince of the covenant. 23 And after the league is made with him he shall act deceitfully, for he shall come up and become strong with a small number of people."

29 “At the appointed time he shall return and go toward the south; but it shall not be like the former or the latter. 30 For ships from Cyprus shall come against him; therefore he shall be grieved, and return in rage against the holy covenant, and do damage.
“So he shall return and show regard for those who forsake the holy covenant. 31 And forces shall be mustered by him, and they shall defile the sanctuary fortress; then they shall take away the daily sacrifices, and place there the abomination of desolation."



How do you account for the fact that Jesus said there would be an AOD right before His return and the only one in Scripture was history when He said it?

RevLogos
Dec 28th 2008, 03:35 AM
How do you account for the fact that Jesus said there would be an AOD right before His return and the only one in Scripture was history when He said it?

Jesus did not say there would be an AOD right before His return. The abomination of desolation Jesus spoke of was the Roman army under Titus in AD 70.

Mat 24:15 "So when you see standing in the holy place 'the abomination that causes desolation,' spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand—
Mat 24:16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. (This is probably all a "type" of things to come.)

Jesus’ reference here is to the 70 Weeks prophesy of Daniel. Same in Mark. Luke doesn’t use the A&D words, but same meaning:

Luk 21:20 "When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near.
Luk 21:21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those in the city get out, and let those in the country not enter the city.

From sources I have read, the Christians in Jerusalem did flee.

Understand there is nothing more to be done after the Cross. There never will be a “holy place” after the cross. There is no more temple, no more sacrifices. Even if a temple were to be built, it would have no meaning to God; it would be nothing more than brick and mortar. Jesus said “It is finished” and indeed it is. The Law, the temple, the sacrifices, all were permanently abrogated on the cross.

BroRog
Dec 28th 2008, 08:29 AM
Daniel's prophesy did mention the destruction of the city and the sanctuary, and the war resulting in the dispora.

Then the prince shall confirm a covenant for a week---but in the middle of the week...

26 “ And after the sixty-two weeks
Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself;
And the people of the prince who is to come
Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary.
The end of it shall be with a flood,
And till the end of the war desolations are determined.
27 Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week;
But in the middle of the week
He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering.
And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate,
Even until the consummation, which is determined,
Is poured out on the desolate.”



How can the 70 weeks have been consecutive when Jesus Himself stated that the abomination of desolation would not occur until His return?

Dan 11 has the account but we know this happened before Jesus came. This passage has to be a type of the prince who is to come.

21 "And in his place shall arise a vile person, to whom they will not give the honor of royalty; but he shall come in peaceably, and seize the kingdom by intrigue. 22 With the force of a flood they shall be swept away from before him and be broken, and also the prince of the covenant. 23 And after the league is made with him he shall act deceitfully, for he shall come up and become strong with a small number of people."

29 “At the appointed time he shall return and go toward the south; but it shall not be like the former or the latter. 30 For ships from Cyprus shall come against him; therefore he shall be grieved, and return in rage against the holy covenant, and do damage.
“So he shall return and show regard for those who forsake the holy covenant. 31 And forces shall be mustered by him, and they shall defile the sanctuary fortress; then they shall take away the daily sacrifices, and place there the abomination of desolation."



How do you account for the fact that Jesus said there would be an AOD right before His return and the only one in Scripture was history when He said it?

The account in Daniel 9 describes a wholly different kind of event than the account in Daniel 11. In Daniel 9, the temple is destroyed. In Daniel 11, the temple is not destroyed but merely polluted or defiled.

Notice also that the term "abominations" in Daniel 9 is plural but the term "abomination" in Daniel 11 is singular.

The result of the abominations in Daniel 9 is that a desolation is pour out on the desolate. The result of the activity in Daniel 11:31 is that an unholy thing is placed in the temple, which defiles it.

By the time Jesus speaks his prophecy, Daniel 11:31 has already taken place when Antiochus Epiphanes placed an idol in the Holy of Holies. This act became the pretext for the war of the Maccabees. A similar thing would happen when Titus attacked Jerusalem. But this time, the Jews themselves actually placed the abomination of desolation in the Holy Place because they killed the official high priest and replaced him with an illegal person. In other words, Jesus sees a parallel between what happened in 165BC with what would happen in 70AD, which is why Matthew says, "let the reader understand."

wpm
Dec 28th 2008, 09:55 PM
Daniel's prophesy did mention the destruction of the city and the sanctuary, and the war resulting in the dispora.

Then the prince shall confirm a covenant for a week---but in the middle of the week...

26 “ And after the sixty-two weeks
Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself;
And the people of the prince who is to come
Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary.
The end of it shall be with a flood,
And till the end of the war desolations are determined.
27 Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week;
But in the middle of the week
He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering.
And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate,
Even until the consummation, which is determined,
Is poured out on the desolate.”



How can the 70 weeks have been consecutive when Jesus Himself stated that the abomination of desolation would not occur until His return?

Dan 11 has the account but we know this happened before Jesus came. This passage has to be a type of the prince who is to come.

21 "And in his place shall arise a vile person, to whom they will not give the honor of royalty; but he shall come in peaceably, and seize the kingdom by intrigue. 22 With the force of a flood they shall be swept away from before him and be broken, and also the prince of the covenant. 23 And after the league is made with him he shall act deceitfully, for he shall come up and become strong with a small number of people."

29 “At the appointed time he shall return and go toward the south; but it shall not be like the former or the latter. 30 For ships from Cyprus shall come against him; therefore he shall be grieved, and return in rage against the holy covenant, and do damage.
“So he shall return and show regard for those who forsake the holy covenant. 31 And forces shall be mustered by him, and they shall defile the sanctuary fortress; then they shall take away the daily sacrifices, and place there the abomination of desolation."



How do you account for the fact that Jesus said there would be an AOD right before His return and the only one in Scripture was history when He said it?

So when is sin ended?

Mark F
Dec 28th 2008, 10:43 PM
Reveleation 20
11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

Revelation 21
All Things Made New
1 Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea. 2 Then I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God. 4 And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away.”
5 Then He who sat on the throne said, “Behold, I make all things new.” And He said to me, “Write, for these words are true and faithful.”
6 And He said to me, “It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. I will give of the fountain of the water of life freely to him who thirsts. 7 He who overcomes shall inherit all things, and I will be his God and he shall be My son. 8 But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”


Not until death and hades are thrown into the lake of fire and God makes the new heaven and new earth. That seems to me to be when it occurs.

All sin finds it's end in the lake of fire, it is contained there. I guess one could suppose that it is there for eternity, but it's contained.

RevLogos
Dec 28th 2008, 10:50 PM
So when is sin ended?
Dan 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city,
to finish the transgression, and
to make an end of sins, and
to make reconciliation for iniquity, and
to bring in everlasting righteousness, and
to seal up the vision and prophecy, and
to anoint the most Holy.

This is incredible to see this written some 500 years before Christ. Really beautiful. All of this happened with the Resurrection of Christ. It accurately expresses the primary purpose of Christ’s mission to Earth. The Messiah would come to deal with the problem of human sin. He would “finish transgression,” make an “end of sins,” and effect “reconciliation for iniquity.” That theme is developed throughout the New Testament.

Christ did not put an “end” to sin in the sense that wickedness was eradicated from the Earth. Rather, the work of the Savior was to introduce a system that could provide effectively and permanently a solution to the human sin predicament. This is one of the themes of the book of Hebrews. Jesus’ death was a “once-for-all” event. In fact, in Hebrews 9:25-26 the very same phrase is used “but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.” The Lord never will have to return to the Earth to repeat the Calvary experience. It is finished!

Daniel’s prophesy emphasized that the Anointed One would address the problems of “transgression,” “sin,” and “iniquity”. This is the same theme the prophet Isaiah also revealed that the Messiah would sacrifice Himself for transgression, sin, and iniquity (53:5-12). Isaiah 53 frequently is quoted in the New Testament in conjunction with the Lord’s atoning work at the time of His first coming. Since Daniel quite obviously has an identical thrust, there is no doubt it must also focus upon the Savior’s work at the cross and not upon Jesus’ second coming.

Cyberseeker
Dec 28th 2008, 11:42 PM
“but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.”

Even though you have colored blue, it goes in one ear and out the other of some folks. You hafta use size '5' plus 'bold' plus shocking pink.

“but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself."

Yep, that's what it means in Daniel 9:24, "to make an end of sins." That's what Daniel's seventy weeks is all about - the atonement. The time is fulfilled; it is finished; praise the Lord!

Cyber

quiet dove
Dec 28th 2008, 11:45 PM
So blue and or bold pink the the key to everyone agreeing on scripture. Ooooooooooooooh:hmm::rolleyes:

Well, if nothing else, it's pretty.

Mark F
Dec 29th 2008, 01:37 AM
Even though you have colored blue, it goes in one ear and out the other of some folks. You hafta use size '5' plus 'bold' plus shocking pink.

“but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself."

Yep, that's what it means in Daniel 9:24, "to make an end of sins." That's what Daniel's seventy weeks is all about - the atonement. The time is fulfilled; it is finished; praise the Lord!

Cyber

Then seeing as sin has been "put away" I should be able to follow you around and observe you sinless life, right? We are walking proof that there is still sin in the world.

Sin has been judged in finality, yes. I have been saved from the penalty of sin, I am being saved from the power of sin, and fail many times, I have not yet been saved from the presense of sin.

That is what Jesus is to do when He returns, to bring these things to their end.

You say things that you cannot provide evidence for.

Your computer has a glitch with it's font by the way.;)

DurbanDude
Dec 29th 2008, 02:28 AM
Easy math? If these were dollars, and this was your tax form, you'd be in jail by now.;)

Sacrifices for sin ended with Jesus. This is even recorded in the Talmud; God quit accepting the sacrifices.

There are three events in close proximity that could represent the end of the second 3.5 years, symbolizing the formal rejection of Jesus by the Jews and the change of course to bring the Gospel to the Gentiles. These are:


The vision of Peter telling him to bring the message to the Gentiles, whereupon he went and baptized Cornelius the Roman centurion,
The stoning of Stephen.
The conversion of Paul on the road to Damascus.
The rejection of Jesus by the Jews put in motion the destruction of Israel and Jerusalem in AD 70 leading to the Diaspora. Titus' army was the Abomination and Desolation standing in the temple. Although we could just as easily say the A&D in the temple was the Jewish priests, corrupt and godless.

I see no reason to believe there is a huge undefined gap within the prophesy. That would mean Daniel failed to prophesy of the destruction of the temple or the Diaspora. I don't think he missed that.

The crucifixion opened the way of salvation to the gentiles, not the vision of Peter.

DurbanDude
Dec 29th 2008, 02:39 AM
Yes, I believe history shows that the 490 years were congruent and sequential.

Those of us that take 490 years to mean exactly that do not have to prove that it is harmonious; we just have to accept what it states. We take it literally (1) because it happened literally, (2) there is no command to decapitate it and project it into the unknown. Seven multiplied by seventy comes to 490 cohesive years, not 2,490 broken up years and counting. There is no gap mentioned in the prophecy so there is no need or warrant to insert one in there.

Let’s use an illustration. If you were directed to go to the next state and told it was exactly a 490-mile journey (right down to the very yard). You were told that in-between the starting point and your destination you would pass two important landmarks, the first after 49 miles, which was accurate to the very yard. The next was a further 434 miles ahead (bringing your journey to 483 miles in total), which also occurred right down to the very yard. The journey's end would be a final 7 miles down the road from your second landmark, making your total journey 490 miles. Exactly half way between 483 miles and 490 (486 ½ miles) you would witness a monumental landmark that would surpass anything you have ever seen. How would you then feel if you were told when you hit the second landmark that your final location was still a possible 2,000+ miles down the road with NO exact finishing point? Such an idea would be totally unthinkable in the natural, but unprecedented in God's economy. God always fulfils His promises.

Let's say a person was told that a journey was 490 miles on horseback to a certain destination, but after 486.5 miles the rider gets to a huge river and he can't cross it. The ferry driver says that it is true that there is only 3.5 miles left on horseback but that is only after a long journey downriver to the drop off point.

The 490 year period of special significance for the Jews stopped at the crucifixion, at the 486.5 year point.

DurbanDude
Dec 29th 2008, 02:43 AM
I see no reason to believe there is a huge undefined gap within the prophesy. That would mean Daniel failed to prophesy of the destruction of the temple or the Diaspora. I don't think he missed that.

Do you believe the 490 year period was fulfilled in 70 AD or 33 AD ?

RevLogos
Dec 29th 2008, 04:44 AM
Do you believe the 490 year period was fulfilled in 70 AD or 33 AD ?
The 69th week does not end with the death and resurrection of Christ, it ends with Jesus’ baptism. The third division of Daniel’s chronology is “the midst” of the 70th week (i.e., approximately 3½ years beyond the end of the 69th week). This was fulfilled in the 3½ years of the ministry of Christ.

The termination of that full final week extends to the time of the 3 events I noted earlier; the conversion of Paul, the vision of Peter to take the Gospel to the Gentiles, and the stoning of Stephan, at which point the Gospel was taken primarily to the Gentiles. These 3 events all occurred close together in time, most believe 3 to 4 years after the Cross. One of these would be the final event of the 70 weeks. Jerusalem’s fate was sealed.

So, how can the destruction of Jerusalem be a part of the prophecy of Daniel’s 70 weeks, since that event occurred 40 years after the death of Christ? Daniel did not affirm that the actual desolation of the city would occur within the 70 weeks. Rather, the text suggests that Jerusalem’s fate would be determined within that span. Jews reached the epitome of their rebellion and crucified their own Messiah then rejected the Gospel, persecuting the witnesses. Jesus Himself said that “this generation would be held accountable” (Luk 11:50-51). And so, this marked the “full end” of Judaism—both religiously and politically—from Heaven’s vantage point.

DurbanDude
Dec 29th 2008, 05:05 AM
I see no reason to believe there is a huge undefined gap within the prophesy. That would mean Daniel failed to prophesy of the destruction of the temple or the Diaspora. I don't think he missed that.

:hmm: Sorry Revolvr, sometimes I just don't get your logic :)

I just don't understand your point here. You believe that the destruction of Jerusalem happened at 70 AD, outside of the 490 year period , and I believe it is within the time gap, but to my understanding we both do agree that the destruction of 70 AD is mentioned. I don't see why you would conclude that because I believe in a gap that means I believe the destruction of Jerusalem is not mentioned in Daniel chapter 9.

wpm
Dec 29th 2008, 05:21 AM
:hmm: Sorry Revolvr, sometimes I just don't get your logic :)

I just don't understand your point here. You believe that the destruction of Jerusalem happened at 70 AD, outside of the 490 year period , and I believe it is within the time gap, but to my understanding we both do agree that the destruction of 70 AD is mentioned. I don't see why you would conclude that because I believe in a gap that means I believe the destruction of Jerusalem is not mentioned in Daniel chapter 9.

What do you mean "within the time gap"? Where is this gap mentioned? It is simply not there.

Daniel 9:27 simply says, “for (or because of) the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate (the temple and its now obsolete ordinances).”

Christ applied this reading to AD 70. So therefore should we. After all, no one had greater understanding of the Old Testament than Him. The destruction occurs because of the abominations continued within the temple. It is "for" or 'because of' or 'for the reason of' these abominations that destruction was pronounced on the temple. Nowhere does it locate the destruction within the 70 weeks.

wpm
Dec 29th 2008, 05:24 AM
Then seeing as sin has been "put away" I should be able to follow you around and observe you sinless life, right? We are walking proof that there is still sin in the world.

Sin has been judged in finality, yes. I have been saved from the penalty of sin, I am being saved from the power of sin, and fail many times, I have not yet been saved from the presense of sin.

That is what Jesus is to do when He returns, to bring these things to their end.

You say things that you cannot provide evidence for.

Your computer has a glitch with it's font by the way.;)

So you obviously don't accept the Premil theory re a supposed future millennium after the Second Coming in which sin continues?

RevLogos
Dec 29th 2008, 05:25 AM
:hmm: Sorry Revolvr, sometimes I just don't get your logic :)

I just don't understand your point here. You believe that the destruction of Jerusalem happened at 70 AD, outside of the 490 year period , and I believe it is within the time gap, but to my understanding we both do agree that the destruction of 70 AD is mentioned. I don't see why you would conclude that because I believe in a gap that means I believe the destruction of Jerusalem is not mentioned in Daniel chapter 9.

Do you see two destructions, one in 70 AD and one yet to come at the end-times?

DurbanDude
Dec 29th 2008, 05:28 AM
So, how can the destruction of Jerusalem be a part of the prophecy of Daniel’s 70 weeks, since that event occurred 40 years after the death of Christ? Daniel did not affirm that the actual desolation of the city would occur within the 70 weeks. Rather, the text suggests that Jerusalem’s fate would be determined within that span. Jews reached the epitome of their rebellion and crucified their own Messiah then rejected the Gospel, persecuting the witnesses. Jesus Himself said that “this generation would be held accountable” (Luk 11:50-51). And so, this marked the “full end” of Judaism—both religiously and politically—from Heaven’s vantage point.

Maybe religiously , but Israel, the Jewish people still have significance before the second coming:

The following passage is very symbolic, so obviously you have a right to disagree with anyinterpretation that I have regarding the symbolism. I believe this is symbolic of the 3.5 year period before Jesus comes when Israel will be kept safe, yet the saints will be persecuted. This speaks of a future 3.5 year period of significance for Israel. Then there is the verse about the 144 000 being sealed (being sealed by God is being given the Holy Spirit) atthe end , and Joel refers to a spiritual outpouring when there is a military attack on Israel. So there is significant scriptural support for a period of spiritual significance for Israel just before Jesus comes.

Rev 12:13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
12:14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
12:15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
12:16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

RevLogos
Dec 29th 2008, 05:28 AM
Something else to chew on. There is another reason the 490 years should not be split up by some huge gap. There is a significant symmetry here with the years in captivity.

Because of Israel’s apostasy, the prophet Jeremiah had foretold that the Jews would be delivered as captives to Babylon. In that foreign land they would be confined for 70 years (Jeremiah 25:12; 29: 10). Sure enough, the prophet’s warnings proved accurate. The general period of the Babylonian confinement was 70 years (Daniel 9:2; 2 Chronicles 36:21; Zechariah 1:12; 7:5).

But why was a 70-year captivity decreed? This is key to understanding the divine symmetry in this prophesy.

The law of Moses had commanded the Israelites to acknowledge every seventh year as a sabbatical year. The ground was to lie at rest (Leviticus 25:1-7). Israel had ignored that regulation. Thus, according to 2 Chronicles 36:21, the 70 years of the Babylonian captivity was assigned “until the land had enjoyed its Sabbaths”. Each of the 70 captivity-years represented a violation of the sabbatical-year requirement.

The captivity era therefore looked backward upon 490 years of sinful neglect. At the same time, Daniel’s prophecy looked forward to a time 490 years into the future.

The Lord responded to Daniel’s prayer with the 70 week’s prophesy. The house of God would be rebuilt. But, a more significant blessing would come in the person of the Anointed One (Christ), who is even greater than the temple (Matthew 12:6). This prophecy would have been a wonderful message of consolation to the despondent Hebrews in captivity.

Divine symmetry.

DurbanDude
Dec 29th 2008, 05:39 AM
Do you see two destructions, one in 70 AD and one yet to come at the end-times?

One complete destruction in 70 AD referred to by Daniel 9:26 and the gospels, and then a partial destruction when Jesus comes. Jesus will defend the city himself when He comes, this is referred to by Rev 19, the gospels, Joel, Ezekiel etc.

jeffweeder
Dec 29th 2008, 08:28 AM
You believe that the destruction of Jerusalem happened at 70 AD, outside of the 490 year period , and I believe it is within the time gap, but to my understanding we both do agree that the destruction of 70 AD is mentioned.

The 70 weeks invovled what Christ would do to redeem his people.
He suceeded and annionts the most holy place.:bounce:

After Christ victory the prince would come and destroy the temple , and even after that desolations have been decreed.

This fits perfectly with Jesus discourse in luke 21, giving the reason why the end never came then, as Gentiles had to be gathered through the fulfilled decree given to Daniel in his chapter 9. He came and he conquered sin, but the majority never believed...the fact of redemption has been realised,there is a kingdom to be born again into, and now the Gentiles are pouring in,--they will until this wonderful news runs its full course to all tribes in every corner of the world....and then the absolute end will come, when God harvests the believers of all ages and countries into the place prepared before the fleshy world was ever created.
We are destined for immediate entry into the Fathers house when he comes again.:pp

DurbanDude
Dec 29th 2008, 08:53 AM
The 70 weeks invovled what Christ would do to redeem his people.
He suceeded and annionts the most holy place.:bounce:

After Christ victory the prince would come and destroy the temple , and even after that desolations have been decreed.

This fits perfectly with Jesus discourse in luke 21, giving the reason why the end never came then, as Gentiles had to be gathered through the fulfilled decree given to Daniel in his chapter 9. He came and he conquered sin, but the majority never believed...the fact of redemption has been realised,there is a kingdom to be born again into, and now the Gentiles are pouring in,--they will until this wonderful news runs its full course to all tribes in every corner of the world....and then the absolute end will come, when God harvests the believers of all ages and countries into the place prepared before the fleshy world was ever created.
We are destined for immediate entry into the Fathers house when he comes again.:pp

:pp even amills are resurrected on that day when He come again! :lol:

15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

Will see you in the Father's house, until then we will probable disagree on some details but I know the important things we agree on.

jeffweeder
Dec 29th 2008, 09:07 AM
Will see you in the Father's house, until then we will probable disagree on some details but I know the important things we agree on.

Amen DD...ill see you there, and we will have a good laugh about how Jesus was right all the time, and we will be happy together.

RevLogos
Dec 29th 2008, 05:22 PM
The following passage is very symbolic, so obviously you have a right to disagree with anyinterpretation that I have regarding the symbolism. I believe this is symbolic of the 3.5 year period before Jesus comes when Israel will be kept safe, yet the saints will be persecuted. This speaks of a future 3.5 year period of significance for Israel. Then there is the verse about the 144 000 being sealed (being sealed by God is being given the Holy Spirit) atthe end , and Joel refers to a spiritual outpouring when there is a military attack on Israel. So there is significant scriptural support for a period of spiritual significance for Israel just before Jesus comes.

You are saying God protects Israel for 3.5 years, Israel who rejected the covenant and nailed Christ to the cross? While at the same time the Saints, the body of Christ, is persecuted? Where do you see this?


Rev 12:13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
12:14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
12:15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
12:16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.Yes, all of Rev 12 is highly symbolic. So why does "times, and times, and half a time", have to be literal 1260 days when everything around it is symbolic?

Is the dragon really Satan? In 12:3 we see it is a red dragon, with horns, heads, and crowns. Everywhere else in Revelation, or in OT prophesy, whenever multiple heads, horns and crowns are referred to, it is referring to earthly kings, kingdoms, or empires. Same here. The fact that it is red shows it represents the Roman empire. Do an internet search on Red Dragon and Roman Empire. Such a red dragon was used as a standard. Even today we see a red dragon on many coat-of-arms from Europe that date to the latter Roman empire and its breakup.

The serpent casts a flood of water out of its mouth. This same symbol is used in Rev 17:15 where we have an interpreting angel saying it is the multitudes of people, heathen. Probably a prophesy of the decline of the Roman empire and the new threat to Christianity.

The woman's seed is described as those who keep the commandments of God AND have the testimony of Jesus. Thus the woman cannot be Israel but is the body of believers in Christ.

I think that all of Chapter 12 is about the woman, the body of Christ, and prophesy of things to come in the next 400 years (for John) as the Red Dragon, the Roman Empire, first persecutes Christians, then is converted, then is overrun with heathen and pagan beliefs, breaking up into many kingdoms. I don't see any reference to Israel in Chapter 12.

wpm
Dec 29th 2008, 06:13 PM
Maybe religiously , but Israel, the Jewish people still have significance before the second coming:

The following passage is very symbolic, so obviously you have a right to disagree with anyinterpretation that I have regarding the symbolism. I believe this is symbolic of the 3.5 year period before Jesus comes when Israel will be kept safe, yet the saints will be persecuted. This speaks of a future 3.5 year period of significance for Israel. Then there is the verse about the 144 000 being sealed (being sealed by God is being given the Holy Spirit) atthe end , and Joel refers to a spiritual outpouring when there is a military attack on Israel. So there is significant scriptural support for a period of spiritual significance for Israel just before Jesus comes.

Rev 12:13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
12:14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
12:15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
12:16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

The 144,000 are actually the firstfruits from what I can see, not the lastfruits at the end. I believe it relates to the early Church.

John146
Dec 29th 2008, 10:23 PM
Dan 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city,
to finish the transgression, and
to make an end of sins, and
to make reconciliation for iniquity, and
to bring in everlasting righteousness, and
to seal up the vision and prophecy, and
to anoint the most Holy.

This is incredible to see this written some 500 years before Christ. Really beautiful. All of this happened with the Resurrection of Christ. It accurately expresses the primary purpose of Christ’s mission to Earth. The Messiah would come to deal with the problem of human sin. He would “finish transgression,” make an “end of sins,” and effect “reconciliation for iniquity.” That theme is developed throughout the New Testament.

Christ did not put an “end” to sin in the sense that wickedness was eradicated from the Earth. Rather, the work of the Savior was to introduce a system that could provide effectively and permanently a solution to the human sin predicament. This is one of the themes of the book of Hebrews. Jesus’ death was a “once-for-all” event. In fact, in Hebrews 9:25-26 the very same phrase is used “but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.” The Lord never will have to return to the Earth to repeat the Calvary experience. It is finished!

Daniel’s prophesy emphasized that the Anointed One would address the problems of “transgression,” “sin,” and “iniquity”. This is the same theme the prophet Isaiah also revealed that the Messiah would sacrifice Himself for transgression, sin, and iniquity (53:5-12). Isaiah 53 frequently is quoted in the New Testament in conjunction with the Lord’s atoning work at the time of His first coming. Since Daniel quite obviously has an identical thrust, there is no doubt it must also focus upon the Savior’s work at the cross and not upon Jesus’ second coming.I couldn't agree more. Christ has already fulfilled Daniel 9:24.

John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

1 John 3:5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.

Romans 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
11And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.

Heb 2:17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

DurbanDude
Dec 30th 2008, 08:58 AM
You are saying God protects Israel for 3.5 years, Israel who rejected the covenant and nailed Christ to the cross? While at the same time the Saints, the body of Christ, is persecuted? Where do you see this?

Yes, all of Rev 12 is highly symbolic. So why does "times, and times, and half a time", have to be literal 1260 days when everything around it is symbolic?

Is the dragon really Satan? In 12:3 we see it is a red dragon, with horns, heads, and crowns. Everywhere else in Revelation, or in OT prophesy, whenever multiple heads, horns and crowns are referred to, it is referring to earthly kings, kingdoms, or empires. Same here. The fact that it is red shows it represents the Roman empire. Do an internet search on Red Dragon and Roman Empire. Such a red dragon was used as a standard. Even today we see a red dragon on many coat-of-arms from Europe that date to the latter Roman empire and its breakup.

The serpent casts a flood of water out of its mouth. This same symbol is used in Rev 17:15 where we have an interpreting angel saying it is the multitudes of people, heathen. Probably a prophesy of the decline of the Roman empire and the new threat to Christianity.

The woman's seed is described as those who keep the commandments of God AND have the testimony of Jesus. Thus the woman cannot be Israel but is the body of believers in Christ.

I think that all of Chapter 12 is about the woman, the body of Christ, and prophesy of things to come in the next 400 years (for John) as the Red Dragon, the Roman Empire, first persecutes Christians, then is converted, then is overrun with heathen and pagan beliefs, breaking up into many kingdoms. I don't see any reference to Israel in Chapter 12.

The dragon represents Satan and also the final satanic kingdom of the beast , I agree with you on this. Where I disagree is that this was not only historic Rome, but Rome throughout the ages. The woman cannot represent the church because the dragon tries to destroy the woman and CANNOT, then the dragon makes war with her seed, the church. The woman has 12 stars and the sun and the moon, representative of Israel.

Israel is protected during a period AFTER the crucifixion, of this Rev 12 is clear to me.

The phrase "times" means years, we know this because in Daniel 4 Nebuchadnezzar is told he will be in the wilderness for 7 "times". Then in Daniel 7 we are told that the "little horn" will have power over the saints for a time, times and half a time, when in other places in the bible the antichrist has power for the 3.5 years prior to the second coming.

DurbanDude
Dec 30th 2008, 09:07 AM
The 144,000 are actually the firstfruits from what I can see, not the lastfruits at the end. I believe it relates to the early Church.

wpm, I suggest you rather read this in the context of Rev 7

wpm
Dec 30th 2008, 04:48 PM
The dragon represents Satan and also the final satanic kingdom of the beast , I agree with you on this. Where I disagree is that this was not only historic Rome, but Rome throughout the ages. The woman cannot represent the church because the dragon tries to destroy the woman and CANNOT, then the dragon makes war with her seed, the church. The woman has 12 stars and the sun and the moon, representative of Israel.

Israel is protected during a period AFTER the crucifixion, of this Rev 12 is clear to me.

The phrase "times" means years, we know this because in Daniel 4 Nebuchadnezzar is told he will be in the wilderness for 7 "times". Then in Daniel 7 we are told that the "little horn" will have power over the saints for a time, times and half a time, when in other places in the bible the antichrist has power for the 3.5 years prior to the second coming.

The woman represents the Israel of God (the elect) - true Israel.

DurbanDude
Dec 31st 2008, 09:49 AM
The woman represents the Israel of God (the elect) - true Israel.

The bible says the woman with the twelve stars remains protected, the woman's seed is persecuted. However you tranlsate this must make sense according to the verses. They are two seperate entities. rev 12 also states that the woman gives birth to the child. This woman can be Israel, but cannot be the church. Jesus birthed the church, the church DID NOT birth Jesus, the woman cannot be the church.

12:14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
12:15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
12:16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

third hero
Dec 31st 2008, 11:18 AM
I couldn't agree more. Christ has already fulfilled Daniel 9:24.

John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

1 John 3:5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.

Romans 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
11And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.

Heb 2:17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

So, according to your approval, these things have happened to Daniel's people and their holy city, Jerusalem.

1. Everlasting Righteousness has been brought in to Jerusalem and Daniel's people Israel.
2. Reconciliation for iniquity has been brought to Israel, whereas Israel is now in communion with the Lord
3. Vision and Prophecy has been sealed up in Jerusalem and her people Israel (remember Revelation 11 when you answer that question).
4. Jerusalem and the Israelites have finished their transgressions against God.

If all of these things are fulfilled, then Daniel 9:24 is completely fulfilled.

Last time I checked, however, they have not been fulfilled.

IN a time not yet fulfilled, Revelation 11, Jerusalem, the city in which the Lord of the two prophets died, is called spiritual Sodom and Egypt. That is not what everlasting righteousness is suppose to look like.

The Jewish religion still harp on rejecting their Lord Jesus. Doesn't look like reconciliation here.

The two prophets are to prophesy in Jerusalem, the place spiritually called Sodom and Egypt, so Prophecy can not be sealed if this event is to happen.

The rejection of Lord Jesus is proof enough that Jerusalemis not finished with her transgressions. The Dome of the Rock is another example.

Looks like Daniel 9:24 have some holes that need to be filled there in order for it to be complete. Remember, the angel spoke to Daniel, and the prophecy is focused on Daniel's people and their Holy City, which has always been Jerusalem. Even if the entire world finds fulfillment in each of these categories, if these things are not fulfilled for Israel and Jerusalem, then Daniel 9:24 can not be proclaimed fulfilled.

Mark F
Dec 31st 2008, 06:07 PM
So, according to your approval, these things have happened to Daniel's people and their holy city, Jerusalem.

1. Everlasting Righteousness has been brought in to Jerusalem and Daniel's people Israel.
2. Reconciliation for iniquity has been brought to Israel, whereas Israel is now in communion with the Lord
3. Vision and Prophecy has been sealed up in Jerusalem and her people Israel (remember Revelation 11 when you answer that question).
4. Jerusalem and the Israelites have finished their transgressions against God.

If all of these things are fulfilled, then Daniel 9:24 is completely fulfilled.

Last time I checked, however, they have not been fulfilled.

IN a time not yet fulfilled, Revelation 11, Jerusalem, the city in which the Lord of the two prophets died, is called spiritual Sodom and Egypt. That is not what everlasting righteousness is suppose to look like.

The Jewish religion still harp on rejecting their Lord Jesus. Doesn't look like reconciliation here.

The two prophets are to prophesy in Jerusalem, the place spiritually called Sodom and Egypt, so Prophecy can not be sealed if this event is to happen.

The rejection of Lord Jesus is proof enough that Jerusalemis not finished with her transgressions. The Dome of the Rock is another example.

Looks like Daniel 9:24 have some holes that need to be filled there in order for it to be complete. Remember, the angel spoke to Daniel, and the prophecy is focused on Daniel's people and their Holy City, which has always been Jerusalem. Even if the entire world finds fulfillment in each of these categories, if these things are not fulfilled for Israel and Jerusalem, then Daniel 9:24 can not be proclaimed fulfilled.

I agree with this post.

David Taylor
Dec 31st 2008, 06:42 PM
So, according to your approval, these things have happened to Daniel's people and their holy city, Jerusalem.

1. Everlasting Righteousness has been brought in to Jerusalem and Daniel's people Israel.
2. Reconciliation for iniquity has been brought to Israel, whereas Israel is now in communion with the Lord
3. Vision and Prophecy has been sealed up in Jerusalem and her people Israel.
4. Jerusalem and the Israelites have finished their transgressions against God.


All any Israelite needs, to participate in those things prophesied by Daniel to them above, are fulfilled in the things Christ did for them below. He as accomplished it all for any Israelite who will repent and turn to Him; just as Daniel prophesied would happen.


"Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people, And hath raised up an horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David; As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world began"

"For mine eyes have seen thy salvation, Which thou hast preparedthy people Israel. "

"God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son"

"And Jesus said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me. Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures, And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day: And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem."

"And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance. "

"Jesus said, It is finished"

"Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ. Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, For the promise is unto you, and to your children"
before the face of all people; A light to lighten the Gentiles, and the glory of

third hero
Dec 31st 2008, 09:42 PM
All any Israelite needs, to participate in those things prophesied by Daniel to them above, are fulfilled in the things Christ did for them below. He as accomplished it all for any Israelite who will repent and turn to Him; just as Daniel prophesied would happen.


"Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people, And hath raised up an horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David; As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world began"

"For mine eyes have seen thy salvation, Which thou hast preparedthy people Israel. "

"God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son"


I see where you are going, and I have to disagree. The idea that the entire world finds reconciliation on an individual basis is fine. But the prophecy was specific. The prophecy was intended to be fulfilled to all of Daniel's people and their holy City, Jerusalem.

Jerusalem is not finished with her transgressions, as the Dome of the Rock attests to. Everlasting righteousness was not brought into Jerusalem, the place where everlasting righteousness is to be brought into. Even though a method to end sin has been put into place by the Cross, the people corporately have not made any reconciliation with God. They are still sinning, with the sin of rejecting God's Son. And the fact that there are two prophets that are supposed to prophesy in Jerusalem tells me that vision and prophecy has not been sealed yet.

Even though the Most Holy has been annointed and that Annointed one made an end to sin, the rest of the items listed in Daniel 9:24 has not been fulfilled.

Consider this: (hypothetical situation alert)

Let's say I was given a prophecy. The prophecy says that John146 and his children will be given $1,000,000. John146's best friends ends up getting the $1million. John146's Mother gains $2million. Everyone around him is getting what he is supposed to be getting. Until John146 and his children gain the $1million, the prophecy has not been fulfilled.

This is what I see when I examine Daniel 9:24. I find the fulfillment of most of the things listed there, with exception of the sealing of prophecy and vision, in us, the believers. However, although we have all of these things, we are not Israel, and our holy city is not Jerusalem, but New Jerusalem, a place not in existence in this universe yet. (It may be in heaven, or it may be in the process of being created. Either way, it is not in this universe, or on this planet). Therefore, even if we have all of the promised items in Daniel 9:24 fulfilled, until it is fulfilled to Daniel's people and their holy city, the Jerusalem that is on this planet, the prophecy is not fulfilled.

John146
Dec 31st 2008, 10:16 PM
So, according to your approval, these things have happened to Daniel's people and their holy city, Jerusalem.

1. Everlasting Righteousness has been brought in to Jerusalem and Daniel's people Israel.
2. Reconciliation for iniquity has been brought to Israel, whereas Israel is now in communion with the Lord
3. Vision and Prophecy has been sealed up in Jerusalem and her people Israel (remember Revelation 11 when you answer that question).
4. Jerusalem and the Israelites have finished their transgressions against God.

If all of these things are fulfilled, then Daniel 9:24 is completely fulfilled.

Last time I checked, however, they have not been fulfilled.

IN a time not yet fulfilled, Revelation 11, Jerusalem, the city in which the Lord of the two prophets died, is called spiritual Sodom and Egypt. That is not what everlasting righteousness is suppose to look like.

The Jewish religion still harp on rejecting their Lord Jesus. Doesn't look like reconciliation here.

The two prophets are to prophesy in Jerusalem, the place spiritually called Sodom and Egypt, so Prophecy can not be sealed if this event is to happen.

The rejection of Lord Jesus is proof enough that Jerusalemis not finished with her transgressions. The Dome of the Rock is another example.

Looks like Daniel 9:24 have some holes that need to be filled there in order for it to be complete. Remember, the angel spoke to Daniel, and the prophecy is focused on Daniel's people and their Holy City, which has always been Jerusalem. Even if the entire world finds fulfillment in each of these categories, if these things are not fulfilled for Israel and Jerusalem, then Daniel 9:24 can not be proclaimed fulfilled.I believe you are missing the spiritual fulfillment of that verse. Simple as that. It's not speaking of a literal end of sin but is referring to Jesus taking away the sins of Israel. And we know it says He takes away the sins of the whole world as well. He made reconciliation for iniquity on the cross. I've shown the corresponding NT verses several times before, but you insist on a hyper-literal fulfillment. We'll just have to agree to disagree.

quiet dove
Dec 31st 2008, 10:41 PM
I believe you are missing the spiritual fulfillment of that verse. Simple as that. It's not speaking of a literal end of sin but is referring to Jesus taking away the sins of Israel. And we know it says He takes away the sins of the whole world as well. He made reconciliation for iniquity on the cross. I've shown the corresponding NT verses several times before, but you insist on a hyper-literal fulfillment. We'll just have to agree to disagree.

I disagree that it is "hyper" literal, it is simply literal.:hmm:

Why do these particular verses only have a literal application in the spiritual realm? I mean Christ death and resurrection, while most certainly having a literal application in the spiritual realm is vital to our eternity, Christ also literally, in this physical realm did die, just as prophecied. So why do we switch to only a literal application in the spiritual realm with so many other passages?

Is it not possible we are doing the same thing by saying these (applied by some as) Millennial passages only apply literally, spiritually speaking, of the New Covenant?