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View Full Version : Watch for 13 horns in a group! not ten yet



vinsight4u8
Dec 18th 2008, 01:25 AM
Look closer at Daniel chapter 7 - three of the first horns are plucked up

not three of ten

Rev. 17 shows that ten horns continue on with the beast king.
They willingly give their kingdom to this wicked king.

markedward
Dec 18th 2008, 04:18 AM
It was different from all the beasts that were before it, and it had ten horns. I considered the horns, and behold, there came up among them another horn, a little one, before which three of the first horns were plucked up by the roots.

There are ten horns. A little horn shows up, and "three of the first horns" were removed. "Three of the first horns" does not mean "three horns other than the first ten". When Daniel said "of the first" he was referring to the original ten horns.

Where does Daniel mention thirteen horns? No such statement exists, because "the first horns" refers to the ten horns, which are the first horns mentioned. Ten plus a little horn who removes three of the ten horns, which were "the first horns" mentioned.

HisLeast
Dec 18th 2008, 04:24 AM
:huh: sssssssssssay what?

Faithful 1
Dec 18th 2008, 05:17 AM
It was different from all the beasts that were before it, and it had ten horns. I considered the horns, and behold, there came up among them another horn, a little one, before which three of the first horns were plucked up by the roots.

There are ten horns. A little horn shows up, and "three of the first horns" were removed. "Three of the first horns" does not mean "three horns other than the first ten". When Daniel said "of the first" he was referring to the original ten horns.

Where does Daniel mention thirteen horns? No such statement exists, because "the first horns" refers to the ten horns, which are the first horns mentioned. Ten plus a little horn who removes three of the ten horns, which were "the first horns" mentioned.

I agree with you. So after the three are supplanted by the little horn this leaves a total of 8 horns . Right?

Faithful 1

vinsight4u8
Dec 18th 2008, 11:22 AM
To begin studying what Daniel 7 is showing us - start with something that I believe gets missed my some that read it.

In verse 1 - how many visions are we to find in this chapter?

"....visions of his head upon his bed..."

Daniel 8 shows how many?
8:1
"In the third year of the reign of king Belshazzar a vision appeared unto me..."

Daniel 7 - has "visions"
Daniel 8 - contains - one vision

So in chapter 7 - the reader needs to go digging into just where the various visions get split apart.

7:2
"...saw in my vision..."
7:7
"After this I saw in the night visions..."

See how a second vision is started with Verse 7?
We have to let it carry its own story.

So the first vision was about four great beasts and the second one is about a fourth beast with horns.

vinsight4u8
Dec 19th 2008, 01:50 PM
Are you all seeing that Daniel 7 is more than one vision?

Daniel told us that he saw four great beasts - then he only described three of them to us.
Why?
Because that fits with what the start of the chapter told us - he - told the sum of the matters.

visions
"told the sum of the matters"

>So we are not to expect every detail to be given just wham - then the next thing and so on. We must take the various visions and let them blend together.


"...I saw in my vision..."

"And four great beasts came up from the sea...diverse..."


V7
"After this I saw in the night visions....diverse...."

Daniel ended the story of the four great beasts - vision - and now starts to tell us what he saw in the second vision of the night.

a fourth beast
it had ten horns

Interesting! Could then the fourth beast of the first vision of this chapter also had horns on it?

Yes! It had 13 - then he saw the little horn.

You see, Daniel was to see and write about the little horn with his great words mouth twice in this chapter.

vinsight4u8
Dec 19th 2008, 01:59 PM
It was different from all the beasts that were before it, and it had ten horns. I considered the horns, and behold, there came up among them another horn, a little one, before which three of the first horns were plucked up by the roots.

There are ten horns. A little horn shows up, and "three of the first horns" were removed. "Three of the first horns" does not mean "three horns other than the first ten". When Daniel said "of the first" he was referring to the original ten horns.


Where does Daniel mention thirteen horns? No such statement exists, because "the first horns" refers to the ten horns, which are the first horns mentioned. Ten plus a little horn who removes three of the ten horns, which were "the first horns" mentioned.


Daniel would not have said "first horns" unless he wanted us to understand that the set of ten is not the first bunch that he saw.
Daniel would have just told us that the little horn plucked up three horns.

It kind of goes along with what happens in Rev. chapter 4 - where John writes as to the "first voice".
John is wanting his readers to understand that the voice he hears then is the same one that he first heard back in chapter 1.

Daniel 7 - has the first vision of that night being where he saw four great diverse beasts.

But then it soon goes into how he saw another diverse beast.
a fourth beast
diverse from all the others
"from all the beasts that [were] before it"

So we have Daniel 7 as

four diverse great beasts
then a fourth beast diverse from all that were before it

five beasts total so far
and then the little horn

vinsight4u8
Dec 19th 2008, 02:10 PM
So we have two fourth beast types.

And we know that the little horn plucked up three on the first fourth beast seen that night.

Here's the sort of tricky part -
Look at Verse 8 - as to how it ends and 11 as to how it begins.

>Both Verses are speaking of the horn with the mouth.
>But each story takes us to a different time of when it ended.

I beheld till...the books were opened

I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake...

Is the little horn going to be speaking great words at the time the books get opened? No, of course not.
The little horn will have already been cast into the lake of fire.

At Verse 11 begins the second account of what happened when Daniel saw the little horn in this chapter.

vinsight4u8
Dec 19th 2008, 02:20 PM
I agree with you. So after the three are supplanted by the little horn this leaves a total of 8 horns . Right?

Faithful 1


How many visions do you find in Daniel 7?
three?

first
four great diverse beasts

then a fourth diverse beast

then V13
"I saw in the night visions...[one] like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven..."


How many horns are going to fight Jesus in Rev. 17?

"And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings...give their power and strength unto the beast. These shall make war with the Lamb..."
Verse 12-14
ten horns
these give their power and strength
>so seems they weren't weak and plucked up by the roots
>these - as in all then make war with the Lamb

So there must be three others that were what Daniel talked about as to get plucked up by the roots.