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Dragonfighter1
Dec 18th 2008, 12:00 PM
Despair in Once-Proud Argentina
After Economic Collapse, Deep Poverty Makes Dignity a Casualty
(http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A47822-2002Aug5.html)By Anthony Faiola
Washington Post Foreign Service
Tuesday, August 6, 2002; Page A01

ROSARIO, Argentina -- Word spread fast through the vast urban slums ringing Rosario. There was food on the freeway -- and it was still alive.
A cattle truck had overturned near this rusting industrial city, spilling 22 head of prime Angus beef across the wind-swept highway. Some were dead. Most were injured. A few were fine.
A mob moved out from Las Flores, a shantytown of trash heaps and metal shacks boiling over with refugees from the financial collapse of what was once Latin America's wealthiest nation. Within minutes, 600 hungry residents arrived on the scene, wielding machetes and carving knives. Suddenly, according to accounts from some of those present on that March day, a cry went up.
"Kill the cows!" someone yelled. "Take what you can!"
Cattle company workers attempting a salvage operation backed off. And the slaughter began. The scent of blood, death and fresh meat filled the highway. Cows bellowed as they were sloppily diced by groups of men, women and children. Fights broke out for pieces of flesh in bloody tugs of war.
"I looked around at people dragging off cow legs, heads and organs, and I couldn't believe my eyes," said Alberto Banrel, 43, who worked on construction jobs until last January, when the bottom fell out of the economy after Argentina suffered the world's largest debt default ever and a massive currency devaluation.
"And yet there I was, with my own bloody knife and piece of meat," Banrel said. "I felt like we had become a pack of wild animals . . . like piranhas on the Discovery Channel. Our situation has turned us into this."
The desolation of that day, neighbor vs. neighbor over hunks of meat, suggested how profoundly the collapse has altered Argentina. Traditionally proud, Argentines have begun to despair. Talk today is of vanished dignity, of a nation diminished in ways not previously imaginable.
Argentines have a legacy of chaos and division. In search of their "workers' paradise," Juan and Eva Peron declared war on the rich. During the "dirty war" of the 1970s, military rulers arrested tens of thousands of people, 15,000 of whom never resurfaced. And when then-President Carlos Menem touted New Capitalism in the 1990s, the rich got richer -- many illegally -- while the poor got poorer.
Yet some things here never really changed. Until last year, Argentines were part of the richest, best-educated and most cultured nation in Latin America. Luciano Pavarotti still performed at the Teatro Colon. Buenos Aires cafe society thrived, with intellectuals debating passages from Jorge Luis Borges over croissants and espresso. The poor here lived with more dignity than their equals anywhere else in the region. Argentina was, as the Argentines liked to say, very civilized.
Not anymore.
Argentines have watched, horrified, as the meltdown dissolved more than their pocketbooks. Even the rich have been affected in their own way. The tragedy has struck hardest, however, among the middle class, the urban poor and the dirt farmers. Their parts of this once-proud society appear to have collapsed -- a cave-in so complete as to leave Argentines inhabiting a barely recognizable landscape.
With government statistics showing 11,200 people a day falling into poverty -- earning less than $3 daily -- Buenos Aires, a city once compared to Paris, has become the dominion of scavengers and thieves at night. Newly impoverished homeless people emerge from abandoned buildings and rail cars, rummaging through trash in declining middle- and upper-class neighborhoods. People from the disappearing middle class, such as Vicente Pitasi, 60 and jobless, have turned to pawn shops to sell their wedding rings.
"I have seen a lot happen in Argentina in my day, but I never lost hope until now," Pitasi said. "There is nothing left here, not even our pride."
Wages Fall, Prices Rise
Late last month, on the eve of the 50th anniversary of Eva Peron's death, thieves swiped the head of a new statue of her. Nothing, really, is sacred here anymore. Ads by concerned citizens appear on television, asking Argentines to look inward at a culture of tax evasion, incivility and corruption. But nobody seems to be listening.
Food manufacturers and grocery stores are raising prices even as earning power has taken a historic tumble. A large factor in both the price rises and the slump in real wages is a 70 percent devaluation of the peso over the last six months. But the price of flour has soared 166 percent, canned tomatoes 118 percent -- even though both are local products that have had little real increases in production costs.
Severe hunger and malnutrition have emerged in the rural interior -- something almost never seen in a country famous for great slabs of beef and undulating fields of wheat. In search of someone to blame, Argentines have attacked the homes of local politicians and foreign banks. Many of the banks have installed steel walls and armed guards around branch offices, and replaced glass windows decorated with ads portraying happy clients from another era.
Economists and politicians differ on the causes of the brutal crisis. Some experts blame globalization and faulty policies imposed by the International Monetary Fund. But just as many blame the Argentine government for runaway spending and systematic corruption. The one thing everyone agrees on, however, is that there is no easy fix.
Statistically, it is easy to see why. Before 1999, when this country of 36 million inhabitants slipped into recession, Argentina's per capita income was $8,909 -- double Mexico's and three times that of Poland. Today, per capita income has sunk to $2,500, roughly on a par with Jamaica and Belarus.
The economy is projected to shrink by 15 percent this year, putting the decline at 21 percent since 1999. In the Great Depression years of 1930-33, the Argentine economy shrank by 14 percent.
What had been a snowball of poverty and unemployment has turned into an avalanche since January's default and devaluation. A record number of Argentines, more than half, live below the official poverty line. More than one in five no longer have jobs.
"We've had our highs and lows, but in statistical and human terms, this nation has never faced anything like this," said Artemio Lopez, an economist with Equis Research. "Our economic problems of the past pale to what we're going through now. It's like the nation is dissolving."
The Suffering Middle Class
Every Argentine, no matter the social class, has a crisis story. Amalia Lacroze de Fortabat, 80, one of the country's richest women, was forced to offer up paintings by Gauguin, Degas, Miro and Matisse at a Sotheby's auction in May. For many of Argentina's well-to-do, the sale was the ultimate humbler, a symbol of decline in international stature.
Those suffering most, however, are the ones who had less to begin with.
On the morning of her 59th birthday, Norma Gonzalez woke up in her middle-class Buenos Aires home, kissed her husband on the cheek and caught a bus to the bank. There, before a stunned teller, the portly redhead, known by her family and friends mostly for her fiery temper and homemade meat pies, doused herself with rubbing alcohol, lit a match and set herself ablaze.
That was in April. Today, Rodolfo Gonzalez, 61, her husband, keeps a daily vigil at the burn center where his wife is still receiving skin grafts on the 40 percent of her body that sustained third-degree burns. She had no previous record of mental illness, according to her family and doctors, and has spoken only once about that morning.
"She just looked up at me from her hospital bed and said, 'I felt so helpless, I just couldn't take it anymore,' " Gonzalez said. "I can't understand what she did. It just wasn't Norma. But I suppose I can understand what drove her to it. It's this country. We're all going crazy."
Argentina long had the largest middle class, proportionally, in Latin America, and one of the continent's most equitable distributions of wealth. Much of that changed over the last decade as millions of middle managers, salaried factory workers and state employees lost their jobs during the sell-off of state-run industries and the collapse of local companies flooded by cheap imports.
Initially, Rodolfo Gonzalez was one of the lucky ones. An engineer for the state power company, he survived the early rounds of layoffs in the early 1990s when the company was sold to a Spanish utility giant. His luck changed when the company forced him out in a round of early retirements in 2000.
He was 59 and had worked for the same company for 38 years. Yet he landed a part-time job, and with his severance pay safely in the bank, he and his wife thought they could bridge the gap until Gonzalez became eligible for social security in 2004.
Then came "El Corralito."
Literally translated, that means "the little corral." But there is nothing little about it. On Dec. 1, Domingo Cavallo, then the economy minister, froze bank accounts in an attempt to stem a flood of panicked depositors pulling out cash.
Most banks here are subsidiaries of major U.S. and European financial giants that arrived with promises of providing stability and safety to the local banking system. But many Argentines who did not get their money out in time -- more than 7 million, mostly middle-class depositors, did not -- faced a bitter reality: Their life savings in those institutions, despite names such as Citibank and BankBoston, were practically wiped out.
Virtually all had kept their savings in U.S. dollar-denominated accounts. But when the government devalued the peso, it gave troubled banks the right to convert those dollar deposits into pesos. So the Gonzalez family's $42,000 nest egg, now converted into pesos, is worth less than $11,600.
As the family had trouble covering basic costs, Norma Gonzalez would go to the bank almost every week to argue with tellers and demand to see a manager, who would never appear. As prices rose and the couple could not draw on their savings, their lifestyle suffered. First went shows in the Buenos Aires theater district and dinners on Saturday night with friends. Then, in March, they cut cable TV.
Around the same time, the Gonzalezes' daughter, Paula, 30, lost her convenience store. Separated and with two children, she turned to her parents for support.
The Gonzalezes had been planning for 18 months to take Norma's dream vacation, to Chicago to visit a childhood friend. After the trip was shelved as too expensive, she seemed to break.
"I can't explain it, and maybe I never will be able to," Rodolfo Gonzalez said. He added: "But maybe you can start to figure out why. You have to wonder: Is all this really happening? Are our politicians so corrupt? Are we now really so poor? Have the banks really stolen our money? And the answers are yes, yes, yes and yes."
Scavenging Urban Trash

"There is not enough trash to go around for everyone," said Banrel, one of the participants in the cattle massacre. Rail-thin, he normally passes his days combing the garbage-strewn roads around the Las Flores slums in Rosario, a city of 1.3 million residents 200 miles northwest of Buenos Aires and long known as "the Chicago of Argentina."
If Banrel finds enough discarded plastic bottles and aluminum cans -- about 300 -- he can make about $3 a day. But the pickings are slim because competition is fierce. The misery villages, as shantytowns such as Las Flores are called, are becoming overcrowded with the arrival of people fleeing desperate rural areas where starvation has set in. About 150 new families arrive each month, according to Roman Catholic Church authorities.
With more people in the slums, there are fewer plastic bottles to go around. Banrel said he was getting desperate that day when he joined the mob on the highway.
His family of three -- his wife is pregnant with their second child -- had been surviving on a bowl of watery soup and a piece of bread each day. He earned at least $40 to $60 a week last year working construction. With that gone, and with food getting more expensive, he said, "You can't miss an opportunity, not around here."
"Am I proud of what we did?" he added. "No, of course not. Would I do it again? Yes, of course. You start to live by different rules."
Reality of Rural Hunger

For some rural families, the crisis has gone further. It has generated something rarely seen in Argentina: hunger. In the province of Tucuman, an agricultural zone of 1.3 million people, health workers say cases of malnutrition have risen 20 percent to 30 percent over the previous year.
"I wish they would cry," whispered Beatriz Orresta, 20, looking at her two young sons in a depressed Tucuman sugar cane town in the shadow of the Andes. "I would feel much better if they cried."
Jonatan, 2, resting on the dirt floor behind the family's wooden shack, and Santiago, the 7-month-old she cradled in her arms, lay listlessly.
"They don't act it, but they're hungry. I know they are," she said.
Orresta can tell. Jonatan is lethargic. His lustrous brown hair has turned a sickly carrot color. Clumps of it sometimes fall out at night as Orresta strokes him to sleep. Santiago hardly seems to mind that Orresta, weak and malnourished herself, stopped lactating months ago. The infant, sucking on a bottle of boiled herbal tea, stares blankly with sunken eyes.
Six months ago, the boys were the loudest complainers when their regular meals stopped. Orresta's husband, Hector Ariel, 21, had his $100 monthly salary as a sugar cane cutter slashed almost in half when candy companies and other sugar manufacturers in the rural enclave of Rio Chico, 700 miles northwest of Buenos Aires, were stung by dried-up credit and a massive drop in national consumption.
Ariel now earns just over $1.50 a day, not enough for the family to survive. The peso's plunge has generated inflation of more than 33 percent during the first seven months of the year, more than double the government's projection for the entire year.
Goods not in high demand, such as new clothing, have not gone up significantly in price, but staples that families need for daily subsistence have doubled or tripled. The last time inflation hit Argentina -- in the late 1980s, when it rose to a high of 5,000 percent -- the unemployment rate was half the current 21.5 percent and most salaries were indexed to inflation. Today, there are no such safety nets.
"I could buy rice for 30 cents a kilo last year," Orresta said. "It's more than one peso 50 now."
"At least we will eat tonight, that's the important thing," she said, stirring an improvised soup.
The concoction, water mixed with the dried bones of a long-dead cow her husband found in an abandoned field, had been simmering for two days. The couple had not eaten in that time. It had been 24 hours since the children ate.
Orresta, like most mothers in her village, started trimming costs by returning to cloth diapers for her two young boys when the price of disposable ones doubled with inflation. But then she could no longer afford the soap to wash them, and resorted to reusing the same detergent four or five times. The children began to get leg rashes.
By late January, the family could no longer afford daily meals. A month later, Jonatan's hair began turning reddish and, later, falling out. Although he has just turned 2, Jonatan still cannot walk and has trouble focusing his eyes.
Orresta stopped lactating in April. But the price of powdered milk had almost tripled by then, from three pesos for an 800-gram box to more than eight pesos. At those prices, the family can afford 11 days of milk a month. The rest of the time, Santiago drinks boiled maté, a tea that also serves as an appetite suppressant.
"You know, we're not used to this, not having enough food," said Orresta, with a hint of embarrassment in her voice.
She paused, and began to weep.
"You can't know what it's like to see your children hungry and feel helpless to stop it," she said. "The food is there, in the grocery store, but you just can't afford to buy it anymore. My husband keeps working, but he keeps bringing home less and less. We never had much, but we always had food, no matter how bad things got. But these are not normal times."

JesusMySavior
Dec 19th 2008, 03:07 AM
We've got to help them somehow. It's just dead amazing how that happens. Is there a way to help them? Will it always fall into the wrong hands?


I don't know about you but I'm more concerned about feeding and clothing these poor people than stocking up and hogging resources for myself.

good post but let's be proactive.

Amos_with_goats
Dec 19th 2008, 03:15 AM
DF,

Excellent post.

RoadWarrior
Dec 19th 2008, 03:15 AM
I think it's a bit late to think of helping those people ... the dateline of the article is 2002.

Of course there are people starving in a great many places right now. Jesus said that the poor are always with us and we can always to good for them.

Mk 14:7
7 For you have the poor with you always, and whenever you wish you may do them good;
NKJV

Dragonfighter1
Dec 19th 2008, 12:58 PM
I think it's a bit late to think of helping those people ... the dateline of the article is 2002.

Of course there are people starving in a great many places right now. Jesus said that the poor are always with us and we can always to good for them.

Mk 14:7
7 For you have the poor with you always, and whenever you wish you may do them good;
NKJV


Yes you are correct.

My point was that in the end times type discussions many come on saying "the lord will provide" Yet we can see quite clearly that, while they still need to trust God, they ALSO MUST PREPARE BETTER THEMSELVES.

When turmoil comes upon America do we really think the rest of the world is going feed us. When the whole world is in turmoil and people are looting any food stores to be found, then there will be a need to defend our selves and share what food resources we have intelligently... else they will be stolen or consumed. I get tired of the ols saw "Just trust God" because just as faith without works is dead.. so is trust without action.

Sorry if I sound loud or angry, I'm not that...just frustrated with the pious platitudes that pop up with regularity.

DF

RoadWarrior
Dec 19th 2008, 01:53 PM
Yes you are correct.

My point was that in the end times type discussions many come on saying "the lord will provide" Yet we can see quite clearly that, while they still need to trust God, they ALSO MUST PREPARE BETTER THEMSELVES.
...

Sorry if I sound loud or angry, I'm not that...just frustrated with the pious platitudes that pop up with regularity.

DF

I hear you. Your desire to teach and to encourage sound practices is commendable. It is quite likely that hard times are ahead of us.

The article is interesting. It shows how human beings can behave in times of stress. It is not pretty, is it?

Can you give us an update on how long the Argentinans had to endure? Did good times come back to that country? That would be useful.

Dragonfighter1
Dec 19th 2008, 02:00 PM
I hear you. Your desire to teach and to encourage sound practices is commendable. It is quite likely that hard times are ahead of us.

The article is interesting. It shows how human beings can behave in times of stress. It is not pretty, is it?

Can you give us an update on how long the Argentinans had to endure? Did good times come back to that country? That would be useful.
Better times did indeed return after a few tough years... CIA factbook online says.,..

tango
Dec 19th 2008, 02:14 PM
Yes you are correct.

My point was that in the end times type discussions many come on saying "the lord will provide" Yet we can see quite clearly that, while they still need to trust God, they ALSO MUST PREPARE BETTER THEMSELVES.

When turmoil comes upon America do we really think the rest of the world is going feed us. When the whole world is in turmoil and people are looting any food stores to be found, then there will be a need to defend our selves and share what food resources we have intelligently... else they will be stolen or consumed. I get tired of the ols saw "Just trust God" because just as faith without works is dead.. so is trust without action.

Sorry if I sound loud or angry, I'm not that...just frustrated with the pious platitudes that pop up with regularity.

DF

It's not just a pious platitude. Having seen what the crowd did to the cows in the road, it's wishful thinking to think that the same crowd wouldn't do something equally drastic to anyone who was discovered to have a hoard of food.

Most people don't want to hear of hard times around the corner. My own view is that hard times are coming to most of us (western developed nations included), but even if you have stockpiled food you'll have a hard time keeping it a secret. If all around you are malnourished and you aren't, it's pretty obvious to all that you've got a stash somewhere. If you share it with the hungry crowd it disappears faster than you can imagine, and if you don't then you have to live with yourself knowing people are dying all around you while you do nothing to save them.

Unless you plan to run and hide somewhere, which brings all sorts of complications of its own, it's not as easy as saying "prepare".

JesusMySavior
Dec 19th 2008, 02:30 PM
good post above. i was just going to mention that.

I actually have a few boxes of food stored up...it's not much, but enough for meager rations for about 6 months.

HisLeast
Dec 19th 2008, 02:49 PM
Yes you are correct.

My point was that in the end times type discussions many come on saying "the lord will provide" Yet we can see quite clearly that, while they still need to trust God, they ALSO MUST PREPARE BETTER THEMSELVES.

When turmoil comes upon America do we really think the rest of the world is going feed us. When the whole world is in turmoil and people are looting any food stores to be found, then there will be a need to defend our selves and share what food resources we have intelligently... else they will be stolen or consumed. I get tired of the ols saw "Just trust God" because just as faith without works is dead.. so is trust without action.

Sorry if I sound loud or angry, I'm not that...just frustrated with the pious platitudes that pop up with regularity.

Here's my deal. I'm not trusting God to make me comfortable. I'm trusting God to do whatsoever He wills with me, which presumably may include starving to death... or refusing the mark while they skin my wife and children alive.

While the story above is heart wrenching, what preparations would you have suggested for the Argentinians prior to their economic collapse? How do you know there weren't many who prepared well and live in that turmoil anyway? According to this story, even the most prepared (the wealthy) are struggling.

As frustrated as you are with the old saw "Just trust God", its equally frustrating to hear the tune "you don't have faith unless you're stockpiling". Provisions MAY make my situation more comfortable for a short while... but I'd need a warehouse to store enough non-perishable food for years. Then I'd need armed men to protect it, which means I need a bigger warehouse to store food for them and their families too.

Bottom line is there's no physical safety net you can knit in your spare time that will save you from calamity. Prepare as best you see fit, but in my mind there is no better preparation than being SPIRITUALLY ready to face trouble.

diffangle
Dec 19th 2008, 02:55 PM
I think it would be useful to stock up on seeds. Had all those people had seeds they could have grown their own food. Neighbors could share seeds with one another and no one would steal from their neighbors gardens cuz they would be growing their own. Seeds are cheap or free, I don't understand why governemnts don't distribute them in hard economic times.

HisLeast
Dec 19th 2008, 03:06 PM
I think it would be useful to stock up on seeds. Had all those people had seeds they could have grown their own food. Neighbors could share seeds with one another and no one would steal from their neighbors gardens cuz they would be growing their own. Seeds are cheap or free, I don't understand why governemnts don't distribute them in hard economic times.

May work for some rural areas.

If I used every scrap of bare ground on my landlord's property to plant wheat, I'd get one growing season, and maybe enough grain to make a few loafs.

diffangle
Dec 19th 2008, 03:13 PM
May work for some rural areas.

If I used every scrap of bare ground on my landlord's property to plant wheat, I'd get one growing season, and maybe enough grain to make a few loafs.
You can grow things other than grain and it can be done on city lots(I'm an example of that). If you don't have alot of ground, you can grow upward on trellises.

Kahtar
Dec 19th 2008, 03:15 PM
When we have come to the end of our own resources, the end of our 'stockpiles', the end of our abilities, THEN, when we have nowhere else to turn, we will look to the Lord. THEN we will learn to trust Him.
Of course we are to do what we can, and will. But to relegate trust in God to a second position is not wise. Do what we can WHILE trusting in God. Learn and practice trusting Him now, so when the time comes, and it will, you will already know how to put your trust in Him.
He is able to feed 5000 with two loaves and fishes. He IS the Almighty God.

moonglow
Dec 19th 2008, 03:21 PM
It's not just a pious platitude. Having seen what the crowd did to the cows in the road, it's wishful thinking to think that the same crowd wouldn't do something equally drastic to anyone who was discovered to have a hoard of food.

Most people don't want to hear of hard times around the corner. My own view is that hard times are coming to most of us (western developed nations included), but even if you have stockpiled food you'll have a hard time keeping it a secret. If all around you are malnourished and you aren't, it's pretty obvious to all that you've got a stash somewhere. If you share it with the hungry crowd it disappears faster than you can imagine, and if you don't then you have to live with yourself knowing people are dying all around you while you do nothing to save them.

Unless you plan to run and hide somewhere, which brings all sorts of complications of its own, it's not as easy as saying "prepare".

I agree...the situation in stock piling just isn't realistic...I really don't want to be butchered alive like those cows for what little food I could stock pile. (I don't have the money to buy extra food anyway)

As far as seeds...I planted a garden this past summer...I got little out of it due to disease and bugs. I was able to get some green beans but frankly they taste terrible...:( I think I have two baggies in the freezer of them...and one container of tomatoes....a couple of meals and those are gone. My corn simply didn't develop...the few that did were eaten by bugs or got moldy...ewwww. The turpits were uneatable...the radish were ok. It was alot of work for very little given back...and now its winter and I can't grow anything outside at all, of course. Plus when it was summer I had to rely on the city to provide the water to my garden...if everything is to fall apart...I don't think the city worrying about everyone getting water will be high on the to do list...:(

And something not mentioned in this article...did these people believe in God? Did they look to God at all for help? The bible does tell us God will provide for us...it doesn't say He will provide for nonbelievers though.

If you notice the poorest countries...the ones where people are starving or suffering from disease...drought, famine, wars...tend to be ones where they have a different religion. those countries also seem to suffer more natural disasters too....earthquakes, tidal waves and so forth. Kind of interesting when you think about it...

God bless

moonglow
Dec 19th 2008, 03:40 PM
I wanted to add this...the thing is there is nothing in the bible in regards to the time ends about preparing by stock piling or doing these other things people think they should do. The only scripture given for those that think this is yet to be fulfilled is in Matthew 24 and Luke 21 about fleeing Judea...when they see the city surrounded by the armies. Most of us don't live in Judea though. Jesus told those people to not even stop to get their cloak...to not get anything...but to flee as quickly as they could! So they literally had to leave everything behind...nothing was said about grabbing a bunch of food or survival gear or anything at all...but to literally drop everything and run if they wanted to live.

And while you are frustrated with those of us to say to rely on God we ARE going by what the bible says:

Matthew 6
Do Not Worry

25 “Therefore I say to you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat or what you will drink; nor about your body, what you will put on. Is not life more than food and the body more than clothing? 26 Look at the birds of the air, for they neither sow nor reap nor gather into barns; yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not of more value than they? 27 Which of you by worrying can add one cubit to his stature?

28 “So why do you worry about clothing? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow: they neither toil nor spin; 29 and yet I say to you that even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these. 30 Now if God so clothes the grass of the field, which today is, and tomorrow is thrown into the oven, will He not much more clothe you, O you of little faith?
31 “Therefore do not worry, saying, ‘What shall we eat?’ or ‘What shall we drink?’ or ‘What shall we wear?’ 32 For after all these things the Gentiles seek. For your heavenly Father knows that you need all these things. 33 But seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness, and all these things shall be added to you. 34 Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about its own things. Sufficient for the day is its own trouble.

As far as I know there is just no scriptures saying to prepare physically for the tribulation or other hard times. It clearly says "seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness..."

If you can find scriptures that say we need to prepare in some way, then please post them.

God bless

tango
Dec 19th 2008, 03:41 PM
good post above. i was just going to mention that.

I actually have a few boxes of food stored up...it's not much, but enough for meager rations for about 6 months.

Meagre rations for yourself and your family perhaps. If you're sharing with your entire neighbourhood probably enough for a week at best. And unless you live somewhere extremely remote you will be sharing with your neighbourhood. Maybe not willingly, but unless you've got some serious firepower and the willingness to use it, you'll be sharing sooner or later.


I think it would be useful to stock up on seeds. Had all those people had seeds they could have grown their own food. Neighbors could share seeds with one another and no one would steal from their neighbors gardens cuz they would be growing their own. Seeds are cheap or free, I don't understand why governemnts don't distribute them in hard economic times.

Neighbours might not steal but there's always someone from "out of town" who will figure it's easier to steal someone else's crops than grow their own.

There's also the matter of growing time, between planting seeds and harvest you're going to get very hungry.

diffangle
Dec 19th 2008, 03:54 PM
[quote=tango;1912285]Neighbours might not steal but there's always someone from "out of town" who will figure it's easier to steal someone else's crops than grow their own.

It won't be easier if you have an entire neighborhood or town being vigilant on neighborhood/town watch, it will be much easier for people to stick the seeds in the ground around their homes.


There's also the matter of growing time, between planting seeds and harvest you're going to get very hungry.
There are things that grow every month of the year. The key is to not plant a mono-crop.

tango
Dec 19th 2008, 04:18 PM
[quote]

It won't be easier if you have an entire neighborhood or town being vigilant on neighborhood/town watch, it will be much easier for people to stick the seeds in the ground around their homes.


My concern would be that as society breaks down there are likely to be people who have guns and want food. Even in a situation where a neighbourhood sticks together it may still need to defend itself from people from out of town who have nothing to lose. Even with superior firepower the town will lose a few people each time the raiders come.



There are things that grow every month of the year. The key is to not plant a mono-crop.

But how many things grow from seeds quickly? It's great if you can create a system where the seeds are already planted and the fields produce food all year around, but we're talking what to do when society implodes, and if that happens you don't necessarily have the luxury of the time it takes to plant and harvest.

diffangle
Dec 19th 2008, 04:27 PM
[quote=tango;1912331]

My concern would be that as society breaks down there are likely to be people who have guns and want food. Even in a situation where a neighbourhood sticks together it may still need to defend itself from people from out of town who have nothing to lose. Even with superior firepower the town will lose a few people each time the raiders come.

What's easier for those living out of town(which, by the way, insinuates that they have alot more land than the intown people)... traveling a distance and risk a gunfight with an entire town/neighborhood defending their crops or just sticking seeds in the ground on your own land?


But how many things grow from seeds quickly? It's great if you can create a system where the seeds are already planted and the fields produce food all year around, but we're talking what to do when society implodes, and if that happens you don't necessarily have the luxury of the time it takes to plant and harvest.
It only takes a couple of months for some foods to grow, in the meantime you eat the foods that are growing in the wild and the foods that are being sold in the markets. Once you(and everyone around you) get your first crops going you can have a continuous crop of food from there on out. It's a heck of alot better plan than digging in trash cans for plastic that you can't eat or just sitting there doing absolutely nothing.

tango
Dec 19th 2008, 04:34 PM
What's easier for those living out of town(which, by the way, insinuates that they have alot more land than the intown people)... traveling a distance and risk a gunfight with an entire town/neighborhood defending their crops or just sticking seeds in the ground on your own land?


I'm thinking more of people who are disaffected in our current society, maybe live out of town but have no land. Maybe people who live in town and retain an entitlement mentality. And it doesn't take very many people who own the land not wanting to share before the model breaks down.

People who have lots of land are obviously safer growing things than trying to steal what others have grown. Whether a group would be willing to take such a communal approach remains to be seen. I suspect some areas would, and some areas wouldn't. The point is that the existence of groups of bandits anywhere renders the whole system vulnerable.



It only takes a couple of months for some foods to grow, in the meantime you eat the foods that are growing in the wild and the foods that are being sold in the markets. Once you(and everyone around you) get your first crops going you can have a continuous crop of food from there on out. It's a heck of a lot better plan than digging in trash cans for plastic that you can't eat or just sitting there doing absolutely nothing.

In a time of crisis you can bet the markets will be sold out much faster than a couple of months. If society follows an orderly decline you get a bit of warning that things are going wrong. But when faced with a collapse (a collapse bad enough to mean you have to plant the seeds) the existence of any foods in the marketplace relies on enough people being altruistic enough to not buy as much as they can carry.

Attempting to grow food certainly beats rummaging through other peoples' trash, but it's far from a preordained certainty that such an approach would be successful. Throw in a plague of locusts or a drought and the plans are laid to waste anyway.

diffangle
Dec 19th 2008, 04:41 PM
Seed programs for the poor in third world countries have been done with success. ;)

Kahtar
Dec 19th 2008, 04:44 PM
Our grocery stores only have about a 3 day supply at any given time.

tango
Dec 19th 2008, 04:51 PM
Seed programs for the poor in third world countries have been done with success. ;)

Presumably coupled with some means of feeding people until the crops grow?

I'm not saying growing things locally can never work, I'm just saying that in same places it might work and in others it might not work. Personally I'd rather not trust my future to the hope that armed bandits will make off with the harvest just as it's brought in.

samphillipssr
Dec 19th 2008, 05:09 PM
What happened there was awful and beyond anything most of us in America have seen.

When the Great Trib. of Revelations takes place, what happened to the Argentinians will be like a party compared to what will happen during the 7 years of seemingly "hell on earth."

Look at the parents that will take the mark just to feed their children knowing they'll be everlastingly cursed and go to hell. So many others will take it because they're starving.

Even people will kill others in order to eat them... this is not even touching the surface of the torture and bloodshed.

Imagine men shaking their fist at God knowing they'll die and go to hell?

According to Gods Holy KJV Bible it's soon coming again. Is there anyone out there not saved? Please don't put it off, Jesus is coming soon according to the signs.

Sam

quiet dove
Dec 19th 2008, 05:58 PM
Our grocery stores only have about a 3 day supply at any given time.

Thats true, get a bad batch of weather coming and we really see just how long the supplies of many products last. Better be ready to eat bennie wiennies if you don't get there quick.

diffangle
Dec 19th 2008, 08:45 PM
Our grocery stores only have about a 3 day supply at any given time.
At this moment, but all the farmers that supply them are still growing crops for the markets next stocking. Food is continually growing.



[quote=tango;1912390]Presumably coupled with some means of feeding people until the crops grow?

There is always food growing.... including right now as we speak.



I'm not saying growing things locally can never work, I'm just saying that in same places it might work and in others it might not work. Personally I'd rather not trust my future to the hope that armed bandits will make off with the harvest just as it's brought in.

Do you think doing nothing is going to put food on your plate more so than growing food at your place? There are hungry people right now... they aren't going onto people's farms with guns a blazin stealing their crops.

tango
Dec 20th 2008, 01:08 AM
Do you think doing nothing is going to put food on your plate more so than growing food at your place? There are hungry people right now... they aren't going onto people's farms with guns a blazin stealing their crops.

Not now they aren't, but society as a whole is mostly functioning. Look at what happened in New Orleans, but imagine it covering a much wider area.

diffangle
Dec 20th 2008, 02:18 AM
Not now they aren't, but society as a whole is mostly functioning. Look at what happened in New Orleans, but imagine it covering a much wider area.
Do you think doing absolutely nothing is going to put food on your plate more so than growing food at your place?

possumliving
Dec 20th 2008, 05:58 AM
You didn't read quite far enough Moonglow...


I wanted to add this...the thing is there is nothing in the bible in regards to the time ends about preparing by stock piling or doing these other things people think they should do. The only scripture given for those that think this is yet to be fulfilled is in Matthew 24 and Luke 21 about fleeing Judea...when they see the city surrounded by the armies. Most of us don't live in Judea though. Jesus told those people to not even stop to get their cloak...to not get anything...but to flee as quickly as they could! So they literally had to leave everything behind...nothing was said about grabbing a bunch of food or survival gear or anything at all...but to literally drop everything and run if they wanted to live.

And while you are frustrated with those of us to say to rely on God we ARE going by what the bible says:

Matthew 6
Do Not Worry

25 “Therefore I say to you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat or what you will drink; nor about your body, what you will put on. Is not life more than food and the body more than clothing? 26 Look at the birds of the air, for they neither sow nor reap nor gather into barns; yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not of more value than they? 27 Which of you by worrying can add one cubit to his stature?

28 “So why do you worry about clothing? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow: they neither toil nor spin; 29 and yet I say to you that even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these. 30 Now if God so clothes the grass of the field, which today is, and tomorrow is thrown into the oven, will He not much more clothe you, O you of little faith?
31 “Therefore do not worry, saying, ‘What shall we eat?’ or ‘What shall we drink?’ or ‘What shall we wear?’ 32 For after all these things the Gentiles seek. For your heavenly Father knows that you need all these things. 33 But seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness, and all these things shall be added to you. 34 Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about its own things. Sufficient for the day is its own trouble.

As far as I know there is just no scriptures saying to prepare physically for the tribulation or other hard times. It clearly says "seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness..."

If you can find scriptures that say we need to prepare in some way, then please post them.

God bless

Matthew 6 was spoken to the disciples about being sent out to spread the Gospel. They left everything they had to follow Jesus. They were called to be travelling to all of these places. They couldn't carry anything with them. So keep that in context.

However, Matthew 24 wasn't just to the disciples. It was to those that would be reading it in the End Times.

Matt 24:25 See, I have warned you beforehand.

Matt 24:42 Watch therefore [give strict attention, be cautious and active], for you do not know in what kind of a day [whether a near or remote one] your Lord is coming.
Matt 24:43 But understand this: had the householder known in what [part of the night, whether in a night or a morning] watch the thief was coming, he would have watched and would not have allowed his house to be undermined {and} broken into.
Matt 24:44 You also must be ready therefore, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour when you do not expect Him.
Matt 24:45 Who then is the faithful, thoughtful, {and} wise servant, whom his master has put in charge of his household to give to the others the food {and} supplies at the proper time?
Matt 24:46 Blessed (happy, fortunate, and to be envied) is that servant whom, when his master comes, he will find so doing.
Matt 24:47 I solemnly declare to you, he will set him over all his possessions.
Matt 24:48 But if that servant is wicked and says to himself, My master is delayed {and} is going to be gone a long time,
Matt 24:49 And begins to beat his fellow servants and to eat and drink with the drunken,
Matt 24:50 The master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour of which he is not aware,
Matt 24:51 And will punish him [cut him up by scourging] and put him with the pretenders (hypocrites); there will be weeping and grinding of teeth.

Luke 12:42 And the Lord said, Who then is that faithful steward, the wise man whom his master will set over those in his household service to supply them their allowance of food at the appointed time?
Luke 12:43 Blessed (happy and to be envied) is that servant whom his master finds so doing when he arrives.
Luke 12:44 Truly I tell you, he will set him in charge over all his possessions.
Luke 12:45 But if that servant says in his heart, My master is late in coming, and begins to strike the menservants and the maids and to eat and drink and get drunk,
Luke 12:46 The master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour of which he does not know, and will punish him {and} cut him off and assign his lot with the unfaithful.
Luke 12:47 And that servant who knew his master's will but did not get ready or act as he would wish him to act shall be beaten with many [lashes].


Prov 6:5 Deliver yourself, as a roe {or} gazelle from the hand of the hunter, and as a bird from the hand of the fowler.
Prov 6:6 Go to the ant, you sluggard; consider her ways and be wise!--
Prov 6:7 Which, having no chief, overseer, or ruler,
Prov 6:8 Provides her food in the summer and gathers her supplies in the harvest.
Prov 6:9 How long will you sleep, O sluggard? When will you arise out of your sleep?
Prov 6:10 Yet a little sleep, a little slumber, a little folding of the hands to lie down {and} sleep--
Prov 6:11 So will your poverty come like a robber {or} one who travels [with slowly but surely approaching steps] and your want like an armed man [making you helpless].

Steph

StevenC
Dec 20th 2008, 07:54 AM
A long time ago there was a certain King who found himself blockaded by his enemies. In response to the blockade the King paid a neighboring rival to attack the enemy. His plan worked and the enemy abandoned the blockade in order to deal with the new threat.

Now the King saved his people, but in doing so he displeased God. Why? Because instead of relying on God he relied on his own wit to save his kingdom. Because he did this, he was never able to establish peace and was always at war with his enemy. The name of the King was Asa, the King of Judah and his story can be found in 2 Chronicles 16.

-Steven

tango
Dec 20th 2008, 11:14 AM
Do you think doing absolutely nothing is going to put food on your plate more so than growing food at your place?

In a secular meltdown it would depend on the scale of the meltdown. In a Biblical meltdown I don't honestly think it will make a whole lot of difference once everybody is hungry and we don't bear the mark of the beast.

moonglow
Dec 20th 2008, 03:47 PM
possumliving;1913212]You didn't read quite far enough Moonglow...



Matthew 6 was spoken to the disciples about being sent out to spread the Gospel. They left everything they had to follow Jesus. They were called to be travelling to all of these places. They couldn't carry anything with them. So keep that in context.

Nope, sorry...there is nothing in this chapter about Jesus sending His disciples out yet...chapter six comes right after the The Beatitudes..when He was speaking to a huge crowd...chapter six continues from that. He was still speaking not only to His disciples but to a huge crowd which starts in chapter five here:

Matthew 5
The Sermon on the Mount
1 One day as he saw the crowds gathering, Jesus went up on the mountainside and sat down. His disciples gathered around him, 2 and he began to teach them.

Then continues through chapter six which also covers Teaching about Giving to the Needy...Teaching about Prayer and Fasting...Teaching about Money and Possessions....it still continues on to chapter seven when He teaches about Do Not Judge Others...Effective Prayer...The Golden Rule...The Narrow Gate....The Tree and Its Fruit...etc and finally it finishes with this: 28 When Jesus had finished saying these things, the crowds were amazed at his teaching, 29 for he taught with real authority—quite unlike their teachers of religious law.

Jesus doesn't send the disciples out until chapter ten in Matthew.

I try to always be careful about keeping things in content...but in this case, Jesus was indeed speaking to everyone, not just the disciples and it had nothing to do with sending them out. It was His instructions on how ALL of us are to live.


However, Matthew 24 wasn't just to the disciples. It was to those that would be reading it in the End Times.

Matt 24:25 See, I have warned you beforehand.

Matt 24:42 Watch therefore [give strict attention, be cautious and active], for you do not know in what kind of a day [whether a near or remote one] your Lord is coming.
Matt 24:43 But understand this: had the householder known in what [part of the night, whether in a night or a morning] watch the thief was coming, he would have watched and would not have allowed his house to be undermined {and} broken into.
Matt 24:44 You also must be ready therefore, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour when you do not expect Him.
Matt 24:45 Who then is the faithful, thoughtful, {and} wise servant, whom his master has put in charge of his household to give to the others the food {and} supplies at the proper time?
Matt 24:46 Blessed (happy, fortunate, and to be envied) is that servant whom, when his master comes, he will find so doing.
Matt 24:47 I solemnly declare to you, he will set him over all his possessions.
Matt 24:48 But if that servant is wicked and says to himself, My master is delayed {and} is going to be gone a long time,
Matt 24:49 And begins to beat his fellow servants and to eat and drink with the drunken,
Matt 24:50 The master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour of which he is not aware,
Matt 24:51 And will punish him [cut him up by scourging] and put him with the pretenders (hypocrites); there will be weeping and grinding of teeth.



Surely you know this is about the return of Christ and not about a literal person breaking in? And the 'bread' to be fed isn't about real bread...but the bread of life. We are to always be 'working for God' and 'be ready for the appearance of Christ at any time...not be literally guarding our front doors against a thief, or worrying about 'worldly' things such as what should we eat or drink, what should we wear....if the food was literal food why would it say to only give it at the appointed time?


Adam Clark bible commentary (http://www.studylight.org/com/acc/view.cgi?book=mt&chapter=024)
Verse 45. Who then is a faithful and wise servant
All should live in the same expectation of the coming of Christ, which a servant has with respect to the return of his master, who, in departing for a season, left the management of his affairs to him; and of which management he is to give an exact account on his master's return.

Here is an abstract of the duties of a minister of Christ.

1. He is appointed, not by himself, but by the vocation and mission of his Master.

2. He must look on himself, not as the master of the family, but as the servant.

3. He must be scrupulously faithful and exact in fulfilling the commands of his Master.

4. His fidelity must be ever accompanied by wisdom and prudence.

5. He must give the domestics-the sacred family, their food; and this food must be such as to afford them true nourishment. And

6. This must be done in its season. There are certain portions of the bread of life which lose their effect by being administered out of proper season, or to improper persons.

Verse 46. Blessed is that servant
His blessedness consists in his master's approbation.

Verse 47. He shall make him ruler over all his goods.
O heavenly privilege of a faithful minister of Christ! He shall receive from God a power to dispense all the blessings of the new covenant; and his word shall ever be accompanied with the demonstration of the Holy Ghost to the hearts of all that hear it. Much of a preacher's usefulness may be lost by his unfaithfulness.

Verse 48. But, and if that evil servant
Here are three characters of a bad minister. 1. He has little or no faith in the speedy coming of Christ, either to punish for wickedness, or to pardon and sanctify those who believe. It may be, he does not outwardly profess this, but he says it in his heart, and God searches his heart, and knows that he professes to teach what he does not believe. 2. He governs with an absolute dominion, oppressing his colleagues and doing violence to the followers of Christ. And shall begin to smite, life does not love the company of the children of God, but eats and drinks with the drunkards, preferring the tables of the great and the rich, whose god is their belly, and thus feeds himself without fear. Great God! save thine inheritance from being ravaged by such wolves!

Verse 50. The lord of that servant
Here are three punishments which answer to the three characteristics of the bad minister. 1. A sudden death, and the weight of God's judgments falling upon him, without a moment to avert it: this answers to his infidelity and forgetfulness. He shall come in a day in which he looked not for him. 2. A separation from the communion of saints, and from all the gifts which he has abused: this answers to the abuse of his authority in the Church of Christ. 3. He shall have tears and eternal pains, in company with all such hypocrites as himself: and this answers to his voluptuous life, pampering the flesh at the expense of his soul.



Luke 12:42 And the Lord said, Who then is that faithful steward, the wise man whom his master will set over those in his household service to supply them their allowance of food at the appointed time?
Luke 12:43 Blessed (happy and to be envied) is that servant whom his master finds so doing when he arrives.
Luke 12:44 Truly I tell you, he will set him in charge over all his possessions.
Luke 12:45 But if that servant says in his heart, My master is late in coming, and begins to strike the menservants and the maids and to eat and drink and get drunk,
Luke 12:46 The master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour of which he does not know, and will punish him {and} cut him off and assign his lot with the unfaithful.
Luke 12:47 And that servant who knew his master's will but did not get ready or act as he would wish him to act shall be beaten with many [lashes].

This Luke passage is the same thing as in Matthew's.


Prov 6:5 Deliver yourself, as a roe {or} gazelle from the hand of the hunter, and as a bird from the hand of the fowler.
Prov 6:6 Go to the ant, you sluggard; consider her ways and be wise!--
Prov 6:7 Which, having no chief, overseer, or ruler,
Prov 6:8 Provides her food in the summer and gathers her supplies in the harvest.
Prov 6:9 How long will you sleep, O sluggard? When will you arise out of your sleep?
Prov 6:10 Yet a little sleep, a little slumber, a little folding of the hands to lie down {and} sleep--
Prov 6:11 So will your poverty come like a robber {or} one who travels [with slowly but surely approaching steps] and your want like an armed man [making you helpless].

Steph

This Proverbs, like most of them are very good everyday life instructions. The Lord made us to work...not be lazy...there are many warnings in the bible about not being idle or lazy...and not to fall into traps we could avoid...kind of like the home mortgage trap...where so many ended up losing their homes...:(

God bless

possumliving
Dec 22nd 2008, 07:38 AM
Sorry Moonglow,

My bad on the Matt. 6 passage. I was away this weekend and went back and looked up the passage and went "WHAT! Man I got that one wrong!"

God Bless,

Steph

moonglow
Dec 24th 2008, 04:22 PM
Sorry Moonglow,

My bad on the Matt. 6 passage. I was away this weekend and went back and looked up the passage and went "WHAT! Man I got that one wrong!"

God Bless,

Steph

Oh that's ok...:)

Merry Christmas!

God bless

third hero
Dec 31st 2008, 07:55 AM
Dragonfighter,
I sympathize with your need to tell everyone to prepare for the Great Tribulation. I believe that we must be prepared, just like you.

However, there are some things that we may have difficulty doing, like stockpiling food for 3.5 years. This video may end up happening to you, myself, and everyone else who seeks prudence while awaiting for the Lord's return.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FdLxMKuxyr4&eurl=http://www.buckeyeinstitute.org/&feature=player_embedded

This frightens me that our country is so bent on keeping us unprepared, and this highlights yet another problem. Christian co-operation. We do not have that today, and I believe that this component is vital to our survival.

As you have seen, we can not even agree on whether one should arm ourselves or not, let alone preparing for the Great Tribulation. We have some that do not believe that they will be present when the Great Tribulation starts, while others disagree on the signs in which we are to look for. These things mustbe clarified first, and thus the unification of the church should be our primary objective.


When I say unification, I am not saying bridge the gap between denominations. I believe that denominations are part of the problem, and not part of the solution. I believe that there is only one truth, and the Holy Spirit is the only one who can show all of us that truth. My goal is to call upon God to answer His Son's prayer in John 17:20-21. IN order for us to survive the next Tribulation, let alone the Great tribulation, we must shuffle off our pride, our "knowledge", and our preconceived doctrines and honestly and wholeheartedly seek the Lord. This approach will cause the Lord to honor His Son's request, because if we bring up the Lord's prayer in our prayers, we will be "bugging" God to do as His Son asked for Him to do, and make us one, as He and His Father are one.

Jesus didn't disagree with the Holy Father's commands. He didn't dissent against the Father's doctrines. He said that He and His Father are One, (John 10:30), and whatever the Lord speaks is not His words alone, but he very words of His Father, Our Father in Heaven. His prayer is for us to be amongst each other as He is with His Father, that the world will know that we are God's people. This is the key to our surviving the Great Tribulation. IF we can come into unity in the faith, then we can come into unity in having to prepare for the Great Tribulation, and what to do when it happens.

tango
Dec 31st 2008, 11:03 AM
This frightens me that our country is so bent on keeping us unprepared, and this highlights yet another problem. Christian co-operation. We do not have that today, and I believe that this component is vital to our survival.

If you start from the premise that governments will ultimately fall under the control of the antichrist, and that "ultimately" isn't necessarily referring to some time in the distant future, things like this start to make a lot more sense.

possumliving
Dec 31st 2008, 05:31 PM
This Proverbs, like most of them are very good everyday life instructions. The Lord made us to work...not be lazy...there are many warnings in the bible about not being idle or lazy...and not to fall into traps we could avoid...kind of like the home mortgage trap...where so many ended up losing their homes...:(

God bless

Well, I knew about the home mortgage trap. God provided a house with money He told me to save in a coffee creamer jar.

We signed the contract the day before 911. Closed the day after they bombed Afghanistan and paid it off in 2007.

My husband died this Sept. So God provided.

Steph

possumliving
Dec 31st 2008, 05:34 PM
Dragonfighter,
I sympathize with your need to tell everyone to prepare for the Great Tribulation. I believe that we must be prepared, just like you.

However, there are some things that we may have difficulty doing, like stockpiling food for 3.5 years. This video may end up happening to you, myself, and everyone else who seeks prudence while awaiting for the Lord's return.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FdLxMKuxyr4&eurl=http://www.buckeyeinstitute.org/&feature=player_embedded

This frightens me that our country is so bent on keeping us unprepared, and this highlights yet another problem. Christian co-operation. We do not have that today, and I believe that this component is vital to our survival.

As you have seen, we can not even agree on whether one should arm ourselves or not, let alone preparing for the Great Tribulation. We have some that do not believe that they will be present when the Great Tribulation starts, while others disagree on the signs in which we are to look for. These things mustbe clarified first, and thus the unification of the church should be our primary objective.


When I say unification, I am not saying bridge the gap between denominations. I believe that denominations are part of the problem, and not part of the solution. I believe that there is only one truth, and the Holy Spirit is the only one who can show all of us that truth. My goal is to call upon God to answer His Son's prayer in John 17:20-21. IN order for us to survive the next Tribulation, let alone the Great tribulation, we must shuffle off our pride, our "knowledge", and our preconceived doctrines and honestly and wholeheartedly seek the Lord. This approach will cause the Lord to honor His Son's request, because if we bring up the Lord's prayer in our prayers, we will be "bugging" God to do as His Son asked for Him to do, and make us one, as He and His Father are one.

Jesus didn't disagree with the Holy Father's commands. He didn't dissent against the Father's doctrines. He said that He and His Father are One, (John 10:30), and whatever the Lord speaks is not His words alone, but he very words of His Father, Our Father in Heaven. His prayer is for us to be amongst each other as He is with His Father, that the world will know that we are God's people. This is the key to our surviving the Great Tribulation. IF we can come into unity in the faith, then we can come into unity in having to prepare for the Great Tribulation, and what to do when it happens.

Sorry, can't view videos and stuff on this puter. God will bring people together when it's time.

Steph

moonglow
Jan 1st 2009, 03:46 PM
Dragonfighter,
I sympathize with your need to tell everyone to prepare for the Great Tribulation. I believe that we must be prepared, just like you.

However, there are some things that we may have difficulty doing, like stockpiling food for 3.5 years. This video may end up happening to you, myself, and everyone else who seeks prudence while awaiting for the Lord's return.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FdLxMKuxyr4&eurl=http://www.buckeyeinstitute.org/&feature=player_embedded

This frightens me that our country is so bent on keeping us unprepared, and this highlights yet another problem. Christian co-operation. We do not have that today, and I believe that this component is vital to our survival.

As you have seen, we can not even agree on whether one should arm ourselves or not, let alone preparing for the Great Tribulation. We have some that do not believe that they will be present when the Great Tribulation starts, while others disagree on the signs in which we are to look for. These things mustbe clarified first, and thus the unification of the church should be our primary objective.


When I say unification, I am not saying bridge the gap between denominations. I believe that denominations are part of the problem, and not part of the solution. I believe that there is only one truth, and the Holy Spirit is the only one who can show all of us that truth. My goal is to call upon God to answer His Son's prayer in John 17:20-21. IN order for us to survive the next Tribulation, let alone the Great tribulation, we must shuffle off our pride, our "knowledge", and our preconceived doctrines and honestly and wholeheartedly seek the Lord. This approach will cause the Lord to honor His Son's request, because if we bring up the Lord's prayer in our prayers, we will be "bugging" God to do as His Son asked for Him to do, and make us one, as He and His Father are one.

Jesus didn't disagree with the Holy Father's commands. He didn't dissent against the Father's doctrines. He said that He and His Father are One, (John 10:30), and whatever the Lord speaks is not His words alone, but he very words of His Father, Our Father in Heaven. His prayer is for us to be amongst each other as He is with His Father, that the world will know that we are God's people. This is the key to our surviving the Great Tribulation. IF we can come into unity in the faith, then we can come into unity in having to prepare for the Great Tribulation, and what to do when it happens.

Ok that video was confusing..the state came in and took their food because of why? That just seems pretty weird...why would they want to raid a home for food? :confused


possumliving
Quote:

Originally Posted by moonglow

This Proverbs, like most of them are very good everyday life instructions. The Lord made us to work...not be lazy...there are many warnings in the bible about not being idle or lazy...and not to fall into traps we could avoid...kind of like the home mortgage trap...where so many ended up losing their homes...

God bless
Well, I knew about the home mortgage trap. God provided a house with money He told me to save in a coffee creamer jar.

We signed the contract the day before 911. Closed the day after they bombed Afghanistan and paid it off in 2007.

My husband died this Sept. So God provided.

Steph

I am sorry to hear about your husband...

I am glad God provided for you. :)

God bless

possumliving
Jan 4th 2009, 09:01 PM
Ok that video was confusing..the state came in and took their food because of why? That just seems pretty weird...why would they want to raid a home for food? :confused



I am sorry to hear about your husband...

I am glad God provided for you. :)

God bless

Thanks Moonglow! My hubby was going New Age :cry:. Was out in the yard one day and he looked at me and said, "You know I've been praying curses against you, don't you?"

I stood there open mouthed and said, "Yeah, I know. I've been binding and rebuking them."

So, God took my hubby with cancer and has provided a new one. I'm not planning on marrying any time soon. But we are dating. :)

My hubby actually introduced us, LOL! Best thing he did the whole time we were married!

Look up under "Dreams and Visions" for the post titled Noise. That is coming to pass right now. And the guy in the dream is the fellow I'm dating, LOL!

Steph

diffangle
Jan 5th 2009, 02:44 PM
Ok that video was confusing..the state came in and took their food because of why? That just seems pretty weird...why would they want to raid a home for food? :confused


Here's more details...

http://www.crossroad.to/articles2/08/swat-team.htm

Imo, it goes along with my thoughts on the United Nations being one to watch for on the anti-Messiah front. They already control alot of land and food and they want it all... They'll have total power over all people once they control all the food and water... then comes the mark...

"At the World Food Programme we have recognized what a valuable tool food aid can be in changing behavior. In so many poorer countries food is money, food is power....." --Catherine Bertini, Executive Director of the World Food Program, "The UN Plan for Food and Land" (http://www.crossroad.to/text/articles/Food-Land96.html)

Jude
Jan 5th 2009, 05:04 PM
http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u298/hogndog/123064328068532.gif


Matthew 6:25 Therefore I say unto you, Take no thought for your life, what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink; nor yet for your body, what ye shall put on. Is not the life more than meat, and the body than raiment?
26 Behold the fowls of the air: for they sow not, neither do they reap, nor gather into barns; yet your heavenly Father feedeth them. Are ye not much better than they?
27 Which of you by taking thought can add one cubit unto his stature?
28 And why take ye thought for raiment? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow; they toil not, neither do they spin:
29 And yet I say unto you, That even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these.
30 Wherefore, if God so clothe the grass of the field, which to day is, and to morrow is cast into the oven, shall he not much more clothe you, O ye of little faith?
31 Therefore take no thought, saying, What shall we eat? or, What shall we drink? or, Wherewithal shall we be clothed?
32 (For after all these things do the Gentiles seek for your heavenly Father knoweth that ye have need of all these things.
33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.
34 Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof.

Dragonfighter1
Jan 5th 2009, 07:20 PM
Matthew 6:25 Therefore I say unto you, Take no thought for your life, what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink; nor yet for your body, what ye shall put on. Is not the life more than meat, and the body than raiment?
26 Behold the fowls of the air: for they sow not, neither do they reap, nor gather into barns; yet your heavenly Father feedeth them. Are ye not much better than they?
27 Which of you by taking thought can add one cubit unto his stature?
28 And why take ye thought for raiment? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow; they toil not, neither do they spin:
29 And yet I say unto you, That even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these.
30 Wherefore, if God so clothe the grass of the field, which to day is, and to morrow is cast into the oven, shall he not much more clothe you, O ye of little faith?
31 Therefore take no thought, saying, What shall we eat? or, What shall we drink? or, Wherewithal shall we be clothed?
32 (For after all these things do the Gentiles seek for your heavenly Father knoweth that ye have need of all these things.
33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.
34 Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof.
OK, So great! I'll ask... why do you labor(work at all) then?
(your answer will be because God doesn't want us to tempt him or be lazy etc..)
Then I'll say: So if laboring IS the right thing to do what was Jesus talking about?... and the key is verse 33!!!!!
He was saying don't be a "pearl necklace" Christian, don't be all "suits, dresses, coiffed hair, and jewelry" be in pursuit of spiritual righteousness, not clothing/power and social status.
Now once we have the reason for right we still have to work; and Jesus did NOT say stop working he simply said get the reason for working right!

Now if I am looking into the prophecies of the Bible...
to the extent that I am able,- I am accountable.
Obviously I can't do everything! That's where God will step in and help my faith... but to not tend the vineyard is sinful.

During the crisis My vineyard may provide food for other christians who were tended their potato fields or their fabrication shops..etc...

Preparation deny-ers are easy to find. But that is what was happening in the times of NOAH too! I am quite sure there were 3 women maybe 4 who were close to Noah and poked fun at him, and said "Hey, God will protect us, have faith!" ......and then the flood waters came up and Noahs sons said to their nay saying wives..." so... preparing isnt important huh???" and then said "get your tails on board before we drown!"

Laughingly,

DF

HisLeast
Jan 5th 2009, 07:45 PM
Preparation deny-ers are easy to find. But that is what was happening in the times of NOAH too! I am quite sure there were 3 women maybe 4 who were close to Noah and poked fun at him, and said "Hey, God will protect us, have faith!" ......and then the flood waters came up and Noahs sons said to their nay saying wives..." so... preparing isnt important huh???" and then said "get your tails on board before we drown!"


More likely, Noah was just the only one left who recognized God at all.

possumliving
Jan 6th 2009, 06:51 PM
OK, So great! I'll ask... why do you labor(work at all) then?
(your answer will be because God doesn't want us to tempt him or be lazy etc..)
Then I'll say: So if laboring IS the right thing to do what was Jesus talking about?... and the key is verse 33!!!!!
He was saying don't be a "pearl necklace" Christian, don't be all "suits, dresses, coiffed hair, and jewelry" be in pursuit of spiritual righteousness, not clothing/power and social status.
Now once we have the reason for right we still have to work; and Jesus did NOT say stop working he simply said get the reason for working right!

Now if I am looking into the prophecies of the Bible...
to the extent that I am able,- I am accountable.
Obviously I can't do everything! That's where God will step in and help my faith... but to not tend the vineyard is sinful.

During the crisis My vineyard may provide food for other christians who were tended their potato fields or their fabrication shops..etc...

Preparation deny-ers are easy to find. But that is what was happening in the times of NOAH too! I am quite sure there were 3 women maybe 4 who were close to Noah and poked fun at him, and said "Hey, God will protect us, have faith!" ......and then the flood waters came up and Noahs sons said to their nay saying wives..." so... preparing isnt important huh???" and then said "get your tails on board before we drown!"

Laughingly,

DF

:lol: Awesome! I couldn't have said it better, LOL!

Seriously, I think they'll just step back and let us do all the work and be like the virgins that didn't have enough oil.

them: knock, knock

us: Uh, didn't you get the memo that God sent you?

them: No! We were told that God will provide and not to worry about it.

us: Oh, well see, God sent us a memo..it was written in that thing that's called a Bible. Might try opening it once in awhile. And in the book of Revelation God told us that a quart of wheat would cost an entire days wages and that we wouldn't be able to buy or sell without the mark.

them: Well, yeah, we read that and the preacher even read it from the pulpit, but we didn't believe it applied to us.

us: well, sorry...God told us who to prepare for and who to let in. The unbelieving aren't on the list. See, we prepared for those that God has busy doing other things. They've got a reservation. Might try down the street though, maybe somebody else will share what little they have. I heard the other day that the couple down the road cooked their own child. Maybe they have some left.

HisLeast
Jan 7th 2009, 12:36 AM
:lol: Awesome! I couldn't have said it better, LOL!

Seriously, I think they'll just step back and let us do all the work and be like the virgins that didn't have enough oil.

them: knock, knock

us: Uh, didn't you get the memo that God sent you?

them: No! We were told that God will provide and not to worry about it.

us: Oh, well see, God sent us a memo..it was written in that thing that's called a Bible. Might try opening it once in awhile. And in the book of Revelation God told us that a quart of wheat would cost an entire days wages and that we wouldn't be able to buy or sell without the mark.

them: Well, yeah, we read that and the preacher even read it from the pulpit, but we didn't believe it applied to us.

us: well, sorry...God told us who to prepare for and who to let in. The unbelieving aren't on the list. See, we prepared for those that God has busy doing other things. They've got a reservation. Might try down the street though, maybe somebody else will share what little they have. I heard the other day that the couple down the road cooked their own child. Maybe they have some left.

Since we're poking fun now, would you mind terribly if I type out a scenario of my own?

Dragonfighter1
Jan 7th 2009, 12:42 AM
:lol: Awesome! I couldn't have said it better, LOL!

Seriously, I think they'll just step back and let us do all the work and be like the virgins that didn't have enough oil.

them: knock, knock

us: Uh, didn't you get the memo that God sent you?

them: No! We were told that God will provide and not to worry about it.

us: Oh, well see, God sent us a memo..it was written in that thing that's called a Bible. Might try opening it once in awhile. And in the book of Revelation God told us that a quart of wheat would cost an entire days wages and that we wouldn't be able to buy or sell without the mark.

them: Well, yeah, we read that and the preacher even read it from the pulpit, but we didn't believe it applied to us.

us: well, sorry...God told us who to prepare for and who to let in. The unbelieving aren't on the list. See, we prepared for those that God has busy doing other things. They've got a reservation. Might try down the street though, maybe somebody else will share what little they have. I heard the other day that the couple down the road cooked their own child. Maybe they have some left.
Thanks Possum, very ascerbic :lol:lol... but entertaining...and appreciated.

DF

quiet dove
Jan 7th 2009, 12:53 AM
:lol: Awesome! I couldn't have said it better, LOL!

Seriously, I think they'll just step back and let us do all the work and be like the virgins that didn't have enough oil.

them: knock, knock

us: Uh, didn't you get the memo that God sent you?

them: No! We were told that God will provide and not to worry about it.

us: Oh, well see, God sent us a memo..it was written in that thing that's called a Bible. Might try opening it once in awhile. And in the book of Revelation God told us that a quart of wheat would cost an entire days wages and that we wouldn't be able to buy or sell without the mark.

them: Well, yeah, we read that and the preacher even read it from the pulpit, but we didn't believe it applied to us.

us: well, sorry...God told us who to prepare for and who to let in. The unbelieving aren't on the list. See, we prepared for those that God has busy doing other things. They've got a reservation. Might try down the street though, maybe somebody else will share what little they have. I heard the other day that the couple down the road cooked their own child. Maybe they have some left.

I guess if God sent a memo that said prepare the people that spent their money to help people now misread the memo and the people that didn't have the resources to help themselves or any one else, not to mention the resources to prepare are just out of luck no matter what the memo said?

Dragonfighter1
Jan 7th 2009, 03:54 AM
I guess if God sent a memo that said prepare the people that spent their money to help people now misread the memo and the people that didn't have the resources to help themselves or any one else, not to mention the resources to prepare are just out of luck no matter what the memo said?
QD, I dont think that's what was meant. The poster was a bit edgy yes, but the issue wasn't about those who couldn't help themselves, it was about those who poo poo'd us who are trying to prepare...

Sorry if I hurt your feelings. You are a very good friend. Please forgive me.

quiet dove
Jan 7th 2009, 06:49 PM
QD, I dont think that's what was meant. The poster was a bit edgy yes, but the issue wasn't about those who couldn't help themselves, it was about those who poo poo'd us who are trying to prepare...

Sorry if I hurt your feelings. You are a very good friend. Please forgive me.

No apology needed. :hug:
It is not that is hurt my feelings and I did not mean to come across in an aggressive way, (so please forgive me for that) I was just trying to get other sides of the issue considered.

There are a lot of hungry people now and they are our neighbors, I just think that in order to prepare, and I am not putting down that idea, but my idea of preparing is for hard times, not necessarily for the GT, but that preparation includes our witness and feeding hungry neighbors can be a very good witness.

Unfortunately, the being prepared is catching most of guard because of the debt they are in, and now the loss of jobs is so bad, basically, unless someone was already living in a Godly way and not neck deep in debt (and so on), it is to late, they are sinking. (financially speaking). The lessons will be learned the hard way. Unfortunately, I am not wishing people bad and understand the process of learning something the hard way myself.:rolleyes:

To me the important thing for the Church, is unity. Not agreeing on every issue, but unity, Love.:)

And if God does so choose that we prepare for the GT, He would provide for us not only to be able to prepare for the GT, but for us to have enough to help our neighbors now. And I am not trying to be judgmental because I have no room to talk, I don't have squat to do much of anything with.