PDA

View Full Version : Getting kicked out of Church?



mikebr
Dec 18th 2008, 01:28 PM
If a person believes in the Trinity and Jesus as God's only begotten, born of a virgin, crucified, buried, resurrected and coming again what other beliefs about God do you think would constitute a person being kicked out of fellowship with other believers?

Firefighter
Dec 18th 2008, 01:32 PM
If they believe that God doesn't care how they act outside of church...

markedward
Dec 18th 2008, 01:34 PM
That's half of the youth group right there.

mikebr
Dec 18th 2008, 01:36 PM
If they believe that God doesn't care how they act outside of church...

How would you know that? Would it change the fact that they are Christians? What actions would determine whether or not you kicked them out?

mikebr
Dec 18th 2008, 01:37 PM
That's half of the youth group right there.

and half the congregation.;)

kenrank
Dec 18th 2008, 01:38 PM
If they believe that God doesn't care how they act outside of church...

You might say the most in the least amount of words on this board. Maybe Emanate...but it's close.

Very true in your comment. We have not only all heard the sermons, but seen with our own eyes those who are all holy on Sunday, and live like hell the rest of the week. But that then brings into question whether or not they really believe any of he premise of Mike's post? If you SAY you love God...but your life denies it...does what come out of your mouth matter or even reflect what is REALLY in your heart?

As a side note Mike...I was asked to leave my first church after a year for asking too many questions. At first they answered willingly, later grudgingly, but when the questions turned to questioning "once saved always saved," I was asked not to come back. It wasn't even that I didn't believe it, I just saw some scripture that caused me to question it. That was a hard pill to swallow and one that took years to get over.

Peace.
Ken

Vhayes
Dec 18th 2008, 01:41 PM
Paul addressed church discipline.

kenrank
Dec 18th 2008, 01:42 PM
How would you know that? Would it change the fact that they are Christians? What actions would determine whether or not you kicked them out?

My opinion....willfull and continues sin. When we willingly and continually live in sin despite what comes out of the mouth, you bring others down. Of course, there is a way to deal with it. Go to them first, then rebuke before all...then, if no change, you may have no choice.

We DO have to try to work with them thought. When it gets to the point of kicking somebody out, you are risking them EVER finding their way in Messiah. It has to be done with great care and love...and patience.

peace.
Ken

VerticalReality
Dec 18th 2008, 01:47 PM
and half the congregation.;)

Should that change what the Scriptures instruct just because a majority of the congregation would be gone because of it?

Perhaps the reason a good portion of churches today are about as effective at ministering to the lost as the Oprah Winfrey Show is because a good portion of the "congregation" are about as lost as the folks Oprah is preaching her nonsense to.

mikebr
Dec 18th 2008, 01:49 PM
My opinion....willfull and continues sin. When we willingly and continually live in sin despite what comes out of the mouth, you bring others down. Of course, there is a way to deal with it. Go to them first, then rebuke before all...then, if no change, you may have no choice.

We DO have to try to work with them thought. When it gets to the point of kicking somebody out, you are risking them EVER finding their way in Messiah. It has to be done with great care and love...and patience.

peace.
Ken


Thanks for your comments, but it seems that for the most part, (your comment about asking about OSAS is an exception) most of you have talked about actions. I'm talking about beliefs.

Say the person is a good upstanding, involved at church, don't drink, smoke, cheat on his wife, good to his kids, etc.; what BELIEFS would they have that would cause you not to fellowship with them?

Vhayes
Dec 18th 2008, 01:55 PM
My husband and I attended a church for several years. We were asked to officially join the church. I had to tell them I did not believe in predestination in the same manner they believed and taught it. Not only was I told I could not join the church, I was asked to not openly question their theology. From that point on, I was treated differently even though my beliefs had not changed in the slightest.

watchinginawe
Dec 18th 2008, 01:56 PM
what other beliefs about God do you think would constitute a person being kicked out of fellowship with other believers?
...
Say the person is a good upstanding, involved at church, don't drink, smoke, cheat on his wife, good to his kids, etc.; what BELIEFS would they have that would cause you not to fellowship with them?:dunno: Do you have a particular example? There may be some things regarding sovereignty that might disqualify one from teaching, but I don't know about disfellowship.

I hope this is hypothetical.

God Bless!

mikebr
Dec 18th 2008, 02:21 PM
:dunno: Do you have a particular example? There may be some things regarding sovereignty that might disqualify one from teaching, but I don't know about disfellowship.

I hope this is hypothetical.

God Bless!

No I was asking for examples.:idea:

theBelovedDisciple
Dec 18th 2008, 06:26 PM
If a person believes in the Trinity and Jesus as God's only begotten, born of a virgin, crucified, buried, resurrected and coming again what other beliefs about God do you think would constitute a person being kicked out of fellowship with other believers?
---------------------------------------------------------------

Mike I have been or 'put out' because of teaching what God's Word says verses what 'this' church's 'theology' or belief system said....I won't go into detail but I was teaching Sunday School and it had to do with Christ's body being 'divided'.. they believing the 'body' was divided up according to man made religious views.. versus what Paul declares... I'm not sure if being 'put out' or 'being kicked out' would be the same thing.. These people just didn't want anything to do with me anymore.... When I would testify in that church there was always a few that had been there a very long time.. stand up and tell the crowd that they had never done what I had done but that they were a Chrisitian and they had been Christians their 'whole' life....... and wanted everybody to 'know' it.. It was almost like an 'heir' of jealousy would come over them.. Today I can just chuckle abou the whole situation and I've moved forward from it..... It was an interesting time and I learned immensely from it.. this quite suprisingly was a Pentecostal .. what they call a mainline denomination.

Teke
Dec 18th 2008, 06:49 PM
I'm talking about beliefs.

They can't put you out for believing. Nobody believes the same thing at the same time.


Say the person is a good upstanding, involved at church, don't drink, smoke, cheat on his wife, good to his kids, etc.; what BELIEFS would they have that would cause you not to fellowship with them?

If their that good, then why do they need the church. Jesus said He came to save sinners, not righteous people.
I really hate when people think they are better than others. I would rather be in a poor church that only ministers to sinners. Pride of self righteous people is very sickening.

When I'm not in church, I'm not standing somewhere showing what a great Christian I am. I am visiting or bringing food to people that other people wouldn't give the time of day. Been doing it since before I was called a Christian and I plan on continuing to do it till I die.

Such thinking reminds me of a little book someone wrote about mother Theresa. They wrote how all sorts of "Christians" came from all over the world to help her in her ministry and found that they could not bear the wretched souls she ministered to.

What a person believes is between them and God. God calls sinners to repentance, that's all. So irregardless of what anyone thinks of another is irrelevant to that fact. Either we have faith that God is able or we don't.

I don't see anywhere in scripture where it says that people are to judge others beliefs. Only God can do such a thing.

In Peace,
Eve

kf4zmt
Dec 18th 2008, 07:04 PM
If a person believes in the Trinity and Jesus as God's only begotten, born of a virgin, crucified, buried, resurrected and coming again what other beliefs about God do you think would constitute a person being kicked out of fellowship with other believers?

There is an article at this URL that addresses this question and might be helpful:

http://creedrehearsal.com/must-all-believe-alike

mikebr
Dec 18th 2008, 09:27 PM
They can't put you out for believing. Nobody believes the same thing at the same time.


If their that good, then why do they need the church. Jesus said He came to save sinners, not righteous people.
I really hate when people think they are better than others. I would rather be in a poor church that only ministers to sinners. Pride of self righteous people is very sickening.

When I'm not in church, I'm not standing somewhere showing what a great Christian I am. I am visiting or bringing food to people that other people wouldn't give the time of day. Been doing it since before I was called a Christian and I plan on continuing to do it till I die.

Such thinking reminds me of a little book someone wrote about mother Theresa. They wrote how all sorts of "Christians" came from all over the world to help her in her ministry and found that they could not bear the wretched souls she ministered to.

What a person believes is between them and God. God calls sinners to repentance, that's all. So irregardless of what anyone thinks of another is irrelevant to that fact. Either we have faith that God is able or we don't.

I don't see anywhere in scripture where it says that people are to judge others beliefs. Only God can do such a thing.

In Peace,
Eve

Thanks Eve, You speak the truth in Love. In the description I gave I simply did it to let people know that I was talking about what most people would call a good Christian. We do judge people's beliefs however. Beliefs about the Trinity, hell, the Rapture, etc have a tendency to cause people to question your love for Christ.

mikebr
Dec 18th 2008, 09:34 PM
There is an article at this URL that addresses this question and might be helpful:

http://creedrehearsal.com/must-all-believe-alike

Looking forward to looking around this site. Thanks.

A couple of interesting quotes.


"It is funny that you never hear preachers calling the division among the churches of Christ what it really is - SIN!""There is not even one instance in the New Testament where a local assembly of God's people were ever called by one scriptural "name" to the exclusion of all other scriptural "names"."


"Members of a household (father, mother, children, etc) usually don't agree with each other on any number of topics. But everyone recognizes how shameful and sinful it is if that family breaks up rather than resolving their disputes. Why should the expectations for congregations be any different?"

Bob Carabbio
Dec 18th 2008, 10:03 PM
Simple - When one unites with a Church organization, there is a constitution and By-laws which an active member AGREES to observe, and generally IN that constitution there is a statement of the SPECIFIC BELIEFS of that particular organization which THEY believe to be the "Truth of the Word".

For example in the Assemblies of God - ONE of the defining doctrines is the "Baptism in the Holy Spirit" as a "Second spiritual experience" following salvation. And ANOTHER is "the vocal manifestation of a supernatural "tongue" as the "initial evidence" of receiving the "Baptism in the Holy Spirit".

In the by-laws, If you were to OPENLY OPPOSE in the congregation these articles, and actively teach contrary to them, "Active Membership" would be withdrawn. You could CONTINUE to attend - as long as you did NOT openly try to destroy the congregation or split the church. But if you did you would be asked to leave the premises.

Paranthetically, my Wife was Baptised by and AoG minister (outside in a pond in November in New England). I was Baptised by a Baptist Minister indoors in a heated tank.

I can join a Baptist church at will, but She can't without being RE-Baptised by a Baptist Minister.

That's part of THEIR constitution and bylaws.

Dani H
Dec 18th 2008, 10:14 PM
Paul was very specific as to who a believer would decline fellowship with.

Anything beyond that amounts to man's rules and quite frankly reduces some churches to not much more than "Christian"-themed social clubs.

:)

Brother Mark
Dec 18th 2008, 10:15 PM
Let me ask another question then... what would be considered a wolf in sheeps clothing and how should we deal with them?

chad
Dec 18th 2008, 11:24 PM
Most churches have what they call 'core beliefs'. The minimum that you must believe in order for you to have the christian faith. As long as you believe in the core teachings, they accept you for fellowship.

They also have non-core beliefs, which allow for different beliefs within the church. In this area you can have differing views on particular topics, but this does not warrant dis-fellowship from a particular church building or group.

For example:- A core belief may be: Jesus died for our sins. He was crucified and ressurected on the third day. He was the son of God as was born of a virgin (mary) concieved through the Holy Spirit.


Chad :rolleyes:

mikebr
Dec 18th 2008, 11:35 PM
I find it funny that no one wants to name specific beliefs.:o Are there any?

ServantofTruth
Dec 18th 2008, 11:40 PM
This topic has already began to turn in the direction my mind was thinking. Not so much, what the individual believes meaning the church asks them to leave - but how far would YOU go for church unity?

If you personally hold to a biblical core of beliefs, would you visit any church who holds those beliefs, even if they added to it? Would you just keep quiet and attend or speak up and risk not being welcome?

I have found speaking up, often very quickly leads to angry debate. However when i quietly discuss with church members, they tell me, well the pastor/ minister may believe that but i certainly don't. Often this means the denomination they claim to be a member of thinks one way, but they don't agree. Why are they in that church? :hmm:

People as said before, should only be 'kicked out' of a church, if they refuse to accept bible truths. Why? Because the church should never teach anything as fact, if the bible leaves room for different positions. SofTy.

poochie
Dec 18th 2008, 11:49 PM
That's half of the youth group right there.

Which is precisely the problem with charismatic and evangelical fellowships. They are so indoctrinated in worldliness they become so disobedient.

Fundamentalists take scripture seriously and believe in the doctrine of SEPARATION. Why does this youth group (especially the youth pastor) not believe in the doctrine of Sufficiency? He may claim to believe in it, but actions speak louder with words.

I have been in so many evangelical and Charismatic fellowships that are so indoctrinated in worldliness and do not believe in the scriptures. The Bible commands SEPARATION from the world (2 Cor 6:14-18, Rom 12:1-2).

I am going to be writing a article on SEPARATION very soon and including it on my website.

Refer to these passages.

Biblical Separation (three types)

I. Separation from the World
I John 2:15-17
Ephesians 5:11
II. Separation from False Teachers
Matthew 7:15-20
II Corinthians 11:13-15
Acts 20:28-30
II Peter 2:1-3
I Timothy 1:3-7
I Timothy 6:3-5
Deuteronomy 13:1-3
III. Separation from Blatantly Disobedient Brethren (disciplinary separation)
I Timothy 1:19-20
I Timothy 5:19-20

HisLeast
Dec 18th 2008, 11:55 PM
Which is precisely the problem with charismatic and evangelical fellowships. They are so indoctrinated in worldliness they become so disobedient.

He said half the youth group right? So the other half is presumably serious about their walk. Forgive me friend, I'm just greatly discouraged of late with the amount of blame leveled at churches and not individuals.

In the case of the Youth group, you've probably got a good number of young adults who are there because their parents make them, not because of a commitment to faith. That's what it was like in my youth group years back. But we still built ministries with what people we had who were serious about the Lord. It saddens me to think that someone would condemn that church with wrongdoing for the sake of that handful of disinterested souls.

EDIT: additionally, since our focus was on evangelizing, I guess we were part of the "evangelical" church too.

RoadWarrior
Dec 18th 2008, 11:58 PM
What a person believes or does not believe makes a difference in whether or not they are a member of the Body of Christ. If they do not believe that Jesus is the Messiah, they might be grand people, but they are not members of the Body.

Can such a person attend church? Of course! Can they be a member? Not really.

poochie
Dec 19th 2008, 12:07 AM
Rom 10:14 asks the question. How shall the hear without a preacher (KJV). Psalms 19:7-8 lists 4 benefits that the Word of God provides and they are (Converting the Soul, Making wise the simple, enlightening the eyes, & rejoices the heart (KJV).

The problem with most evangelical and charismatics is that their "pastors" do not preach the Bible. Preaching is not expository for the most part but focused on "finding your gift" or some other self-fulfillment message.

The youth group probably is loaded with garbage CCM and so worlidness begins. Why do the youth need to watch American Idol, and be so consumed with X-boxes and video games?

Why does the pastor make references to the culture in his sermons? Why not only be focused on his charge and this is to preach the word (KJV).

The pastor must be diligent in his ministry (Ezra 7:10, Acts 20:20,27, 1 Pet 4:11, 2 Tim 2:15, 2 Cor 4:2 & Jer 23:28).





He said half the youth group right? So the other half is presumably serious about their walk. Forgive me friend, I'm just greatly discouraged of late with the amount of blame leveled at churches and not individuals.

In the case of the Youth group, you've probably got a good number of young adults who are there because their parents make them, not because of a commitment to faith. That's what it was like in my youth group years back. But we still built ministries with what people we had who were serious about the Lord. It saddens me to think that someone would condemn that church with wrongdoing for the sake of that handful of disinterested souls.

EDIT: additionally, since our focus was on evangelizing, I guess we were part of the "evangelical" church too.

Brother Mark
Dec 19th 2008, 12:11 AM
I find it funny that no one wants to name specific beliefs.:o Are there any?

Mike, the problem is that the question leaves off much that would be needed. For instance, scripture speaks about separating from one who is in unrepentant sin. It also speaks of being waring of wolves.

There might be two brothers with similar beleifs, one would need to go while the other could stay. What if someone came to church wishing to learn more from God and desiring to know Him intimately but was not sowing discord (i.e. speaking against the authority in the church or the teaching of the church) but was genuinely seeking. The other, may be quietly worshiping but speaking of his beliefs to others and influencing them and perhaps, leading them astray. Now the pastor, who is to look after the souls of his flock has to be paying attention.

Your question is not an easy one. From what I have seen of God, if a pastor preaches the word, and creates an environment where God is comfortable, God will show up. When he does, those of the flesh will not be very comfortable. Those with different beliefs will eventually show themselves. The flesh almost always oversteps it's boundries and goes to far. When that happens, those folks are generally nullified in their "ministries" and leave the church or the pastor is voted out or something along those lines. Generally, severely different or damaging belief systems will surface in such a way that those who are spiritual can be identified and those who are not can be clearly seen.

1 Cor 11:19

19 For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you.
KJV

God has ordained that heresies will be among us so that they which are approved may be made manifest among us. IOW, those with heresies will eventually be revealed as they surface and the people that agree with them surface. In this way, wolves and sheep (those that are approved) can be identified.

homesteader1972
Dec 19th 2008, 12:26 AM
I find it funny that no one wants to name specific beliefs.:o Are there any?

I think this will vary depending on what church and how strong they feel about certain doctrines.

I knew a man who preached Christ was to return in the year 2000 (Y2K). Of course that didnt happen. He said he miscalculated and it was 2002, then it changed again. After this he was marked as a heritic and told to repent.

I wont attend a congregaton that teaches heresy. We left a church that taught sinless perfection. We then left that whole denomination because it taught baptismal regeneration. Had I not left and voiced my understanding of scripture, I know I would have been asked to leave. I just saved them the trouble.

God Bless,

Teke
Dec 19th 2008, 12:43 AM
Thanks Eve, You speak the truth in Love. In the description I gave I simply did it to let people know that I was talking about what most people would call a good Christian. We do judge people's beliefs however. Beliefs about the Trinity, hell, the Rapture, etc have a tendency to cause people to question your love for Christ.

I am the judge of no one. I just brought a blind lady to church who wants to be baptized. Do I know what she believes. No (obviously she believes in the Son of God to request baptism). Does it really matter so much. No We will help her learn, and we will also listen to her opinions on what we believe(such as the Trinity). Jesus said "come" to Him, and "forbid them not". Who or what am I that I should question His teachings.

It has been my experience that God is able to lead a person in how and what they believe. And He never ceases to amaze me. All I need to do is "be still and know" that He is God.

Most of the time we just need to watch the glory of God unfold before us. And not hinder that happening, with our opinions on what or how He does so. Such things do not happen according to our schedule or agenda, but according to His. :)

In Peace (let us pray to the Lord)
Eve

kenrank
Dec 19th 2008, 01:57 AM
Thanks for your comments, but it seems that for the most part, (your comment about asking about OSAS is an exception) most of you have talked about actions. I'm talking about beliefs.

Say the person is a good upstanding, involved at church, don't drink, smoke, cheat on his wife, good to his kids, etc.; what BELIEFS would they have that would cause you not to fellowship with them?

Why do we talk about actions? While being saved by the grace of God...faith produces works. Scripture says we will know them (God's people) by the fruits they produce. So action is indeed a part of it Mike. But what would keep me from fellowshipping? It would have to be bad...because we all grow at different rates. Some things I believe today, I did not believe 10 years ago. So as long as a person is searching and in the general direction of good scripture, I tend to leave them alone. Know what I mean? So, snake handling, over or misuse of tongues, I don't know...I'll have to think about it.

Good question!
Ken

militarywife
Dec 19th 2008, 02:03 AM
That's half of the youth group right there.
Yikes. Comments like that are so hurtful towards our youth. Rather than judge, we need to encourage. Prayer rather than speculation is a better solution.

chad
Dec 19th 2008, 02:53 AM
I know of people who were not believers and they attended church. Eventually, they came to believe and became members of the church.

So yes, IMO a person who does not believe, should be abble to attend church.

Chad :rolleyes:



What a person believes or does not believe makes a difference in whether or not they are a member of the Body of Christ. If they do not believe that Jesus is the Messiah, they might be grand people, but they are not members of the Body.

Can such a person attend church? Of course! Can they be a member? Not really.

HisLeast
Dec 19th 2008, 03:01 AM
Rom 10:14 asks the question. How shall the hear without a preacher (KJV). Psalms 19:7-8 lists 4 benefits that the Word of God provides and they are (Converting the Soul, Making wise the simple, enlightening the eyes, & rejoices the heart (KJV).

The problem with most evangelical and charismatics is that their "pastors" do not preach the Bible. Preaching is not expository for the most part but focused on "finding your gift" or some other self-fulfillment message.

The youth group probably is loaded with garbage CCM and so worlidness begins. Why do the youth need to watch American Idol, and be so consumed with X-boxes and video games?

Why does the pastor make references to the culture in his sermons? Why not only be focused on his charge and this is to preach the word (KJV).

The pastor must be diligent in his ministry (Ezra 7:10, Acts 20:20,27, 1 Pet 4:11, 2 Tim 2:15, 2 Cor 4:2 & Jer 23:28).

Again, why is the first instinct to question the Youth pastor as if you know him? Were you a member of markedward's youth group? Because it seems like you feel you've got his Youth Pastor pretty much described.

All Markedward said is that half the youth group believes God doesn't care how they behave outside of church. That could mean TWO things...
(1) The church isn't doing a good enough job of instruction
(2) The ears of the half people in question are shut. (Whilst the other half is open).

I just want to know why the assumption is almost always (1) and never (2).

You've also made some specific (and serious) accusations against markedward's church and I want to know on what grounds you make them.

BCF
Dec 19th 2008, 03:44 AM
I find it funny that no one wants to name specific beliefs.:o Are there any?

Well my friend...I don't know if this counts as something that you are looking for or not in your question. But my wife and I attend a Church that we are not allowed to be members of because we are a divorced couple. The Pastor of the Church and the belief system that they believe (which they claim is the scripture) throughout their denomination, does not allow divorced couples to be members of there Church.

Do I care......NO. What they think or believe makes no difference to me. All that matters to me is what God thinks and says in his Word. I don't need to be a member of a Church to Love God and do His Work for Him. As far as what they believe, I know that God does not say anything of what they are believing in his Word.

So why do I stay you may think....because God put me there for a reason...and I don't argue with God.

Thanks,

Dave

Thaddaeus
Dec 19th 2008, 04:10 AM
You might say the most in the least amount of words on this board. Maybe Emanate...but it's close.

Very true in your comment. We have not only all heard the sermons, but seen with our own eyes those who are all holy on Sunday, and live like hell the rest of the week. But that then brings into question whether or not they really believe any of he premise of Mike's post? If you SAY you love God...but your life denies it...does what come out of your mouth matter or even reflect what is REALLY in your heart?

As a side note Mike...I was asked to leave my first church after a year for asking too many questions. At first they answered willingly, later grudgingly, but when the questions turned to questioning "once saved always saved," I was asked not to come back. It wasn't even that I didn't believe it, I just saw some scripture that caused me to question it. That was a hard pill to swallow and one that took years to get over.

Peace.
Ken
this is why you were ask to leave to many churches that believe osas to say that one can either walk away from or lose their salvation is consider another gospel. I am not saying that i now agree with this but if that church saw it that way, that is why they kicked you out, plus the part about no schism in the body.

Ga 1:6I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:Ga 1:7Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.Ga 1:8But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.Ga 1:9As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

kf4zmt
Dec 19th 2008, 01:30 PM
Simple - When one unites with a Church organization, there is a constitution and By-laws which an active member AGREES to observe, and generally IN that constitution there is a statement of the SPECIFIC BELIEFS of that particular organization which THEY believe to be the "Truth of the Word".

For example in the Assemblies of God - ONE of the defining doctrines is the "Baptism in the Holy Spirit" as a "Second spiritual experience" following salvation. And ANOTHER is "the vocal manifestation of a supernatural "tongue" as the "initial evidence" of receiving the "Baptism in the Holy Spirit".

In the by-laws, If you were to OPENLY OPPOSE in the congregation these articles, and actively teach contrary to them, "Active Membership" would be withdrawn. You could CONTINUE to attend - as long as you did NOT openly try to destroy the congregation or split the church. But if you did you would be asked to leave the premises.

Paranthetically, my Wife was Baptised by and AoG minister (outside in a pond in November in New England). I was Baptised by a Baptist Minister indoors in a heated tank.

I can join a Baptist church at will, but She can't without being RE-Baptised by a Baptist Minister.

That's part of THEIR constitution and bylaws.

Where does the Bible authorize congregations to adopt "By-Laws and Constitutions"?

mikebr
Dec 19th 2008, 01:39 PM
Where does the Bible authorize congregations to adopt "By-Laws and Constitutions"?


Where does the Bible authorize most of what we do in churches?

VerticalReality
Dec 19th 2008, 01:49 PM
Let me ask another question then... what would be considered a wolf in sheeps clothing and how should we deal with them?

2 Peter 2, I believe, gives us a good description of what a wolf in sheeps clothing will look like. Going by that chapter it seems that a false teacher will not only practice sin (uncleanness, lewdness, etc.), but will also teach others that there is nothing wrong with it in order to justify their own wickedness. They will attract many folks with their false teachings through the lust of the flesh . . . satisfying those itching ears.

Folks in the flesh want to hear that they can live however they want to and God will forgive them anyway. People want to hear that they can live like heathens all week long and be forgiven on Sunday. They like the sound of the idea that we can keep the sexual immorality, the drunkenness, the covetousness, the idolatry, the blasphemy, the adultery, the lies, the gossip/backbiting, etc., and God will just turn a blind eye.

We will know them by their fruit. Many will say to Him on that Day, "Lord, Lord . . . " when in reality they never did make Him their Lord.

mikebr
Dec 19th 2008, 01:59 PM
2 Peter 2, I believe, gives us a good description of what a wolf in sheeps clothing will look like. Going by that chapter it seems that a false teacher will not only practice sin (uncleanness, lewdness, etc.), but will also teach others that there is nothing wrong with it in order to justify their own wickedness. They will attract many folks with their false teachings through the lust of the flesh . . . satisfying those itching ears.

Folks in the flesh want to hear that they can live however they want to and God will forgive them anyway. People want to hear that they can live like heathens all week long and be forgiven on Sunday. They like the sound of the idea that we can keep the sexual immorality, the drunkenness, the covetousness, the idolatry, the blasphemy, the adultery, the lies, the gossip/backbiting, etc., and God will just turn a blind eye.

We will know them by their fruit. Many will say to Him on that Day, "Lord, Lord . . . " when in reality they never did make Him their Lord.

Have you ever met one person who said I want to live the way I want to and I want God to forgive me anyway. I realize that people rationalize their sin. I do all the time and God has forgiven me through Christ. But Please understand that I don't want to be that way.:B

Now before you crucify me make very sure there is no sin that you don't rationalize. Are you ever greedy, or mean, or hateful, or rude and come up with reasons why you had to be under those particular circumstances?

mikebr
Dec 19th 2008, 02:01 PM
Someone (maybe Oliver Green) said that there was enough sin in my best prayer to send me to hell.

VerticalReality
Dec 19th 2008, 02:40 PM
Have you ever met one person who said I want to live the way I want to and I want God to forgive me anyway.

It's not that folks will proclaim that they can "live however they want to". Their fruit will demonstrate that they can "live however they want to". They will practice lawlessness as Jesus proclaims in Matthew 7.


Now before you crucify me make very sure there is no sin that you don't rationalize. Are you ever greedy, or mean, or hateful, or rude and come up with reasons why you had to be under those particular circumstances?

There is certainly no sin in me that I am aware of that I rationalize. If I commit sin I grieve over it and repent. I hate it with a passion, and I don't want any part of it.

And to answer your question . . .

The flesh always wants to be greedy, mean, hateful, rude, etc.

However, by faith we must crucify the flesh and walk by the Spirit in order to overcome such lusts. Those who know the Lord and He knows them will do so. Those who live by the flesh and practice lawlessness will not.

mikebr
Dec 19th 2008, 02:47 PM
It's not that folks will proclaim that they can "live however they want to". Their fruit will demonstrate that they can "live however they want to". They will practice lawlessness as Jesus proclaims in Matthew 7.



There is certainly no sin in me that I am aware of that I rationalize. If I commit sin I grieve over it and repent. I hate it with a passion, and I don't want any part of it.

And to answer your question . . .

The flesh always wants to be greedy, mean, hateful, rude, etc.

However, by faith we must crucify the flesh and walk by the Spirit in order to overcome such lusts. Those who know the Lord and He knows them will do so. Those who live by the flesh and practice lawlessness will not.


Have you ever thought about this. Crucifixion is the only form of capital punishment ever devised that a man cannot do to himself. I was crucified with Christ.

kf4zmt
Dec 19th 2008, 02:52 PM
Where does the Bible authorize most of what we do in churches?

Sadly, a great deal that is done in churches today is unauthorized. In the context of this thread, I'd say that putting people out of the church for petty reasons is one of them.

However, shouldn't it be the Christian's goal to only do those things which God has authorized? After all, we are commanded to do all in the name of Christ which is to say to do all things by His authority. To rationalize unauthorized behavior or activities just because "everyone else does it" is not how a disciple of Christ should conduct himself.

VerticalReality
Dec 19th 2008, 02:57 PM
Have you ever thought about this. Crucifixion is the only form of capital punishment ever devised that a man cannot do to himself. I was crucified with Christ.

However, our Lord Jesus says that we must take up our cross daily. Our flesh was crucified with Him. However, does that then mean that we never have a problem with the flesh ever again? If you are tempted it is because you have a flesh that is being enticed by the things of this world. If you do not crucify those desires you will sin. If you do sin you must repent of it. If you refuse to repent of it and you continue on in sin there will be judgment.

David Taylor
Dec 19th 2008, 03:00 PM
If a person believes in the Trinity and Jesus as God's only begotten, born of a virgin, crucified, buried, resurrected and coming again what other beliefs about God do you think would constitute a person being kicked out of fellowship with other believers?

Their attitude and how the treat others....

Do they have other issues beyond those you mention above that they are at odds with the church about, that they turn into areas of strife, contention, and disunity within the body? Have they been counselled by the church to stop whatever the issue is, following the Matthew 18 example; and they still continue to choose to remain in defiance?

I'd ask those questions in wanting to better understand the situation; since your into-paragraph is pretty generic and vague.

mikebr
Dec 19th 2008, 03:02 PM
Sadly, a great deal that is done in churches today is unauthorized. In the context of this thread, I'd say that putting people out of the church for petty reasons is one of them.

However, shouldn't it be the Christian's goal to only do those things which God has authorized? After all, we are commanded to do all in the name of Christ which is to say to do all things by His authority. To rationalize unauthorized behavior or activities just because "everyone else does it" is not how a disciple of Christ should conduct himself.

The problem comes when we start to make lists of what's authorized. Some might say that women couldn't speak, others would say that we couldn't have wine at communion, that we had to use grape juice. We would get into discussions about how to baptize and who to baptize. So even the things we agree on we can't agree on.


A NEW LAW
WORDS BY DEREK WEBB
donít teach me about politics and government
just tell me who to vote for
donít teach me about truth and beauty
just label my music

donít teach me how to live like a free man
just give me a new law

i donít wanna know if the answers arenít easy
so just bring it down from the mountain to me


i want a new law



donít teach me about moderation and liberty
i prefer a shot of grape juice

donít teach me about loving my enemies

donít teach me how to listen to the Spirit
just give me a new law

mikebr
Dec 19th 2008, 03:06 PM
Their attitude and how the treat others....

Do they have other issues beyond those you mention above that they are at odds with the church about, that they turn into areas of strife, contention, and disunity within the body? Have they been counselled by the church to stop whatever the issue is, following the Matthew 18 example; and they still continue to choose to remain in defiance?

I'd ask those questions in wanting to better understand the situation; since your into-paragraph is pretty generic and vague.

What if they love others David, and treat them as Christ would but they believe different? should they be kicked out of fellowhip?

David Taylor
Dec 19th 2008, 03:08 PM
Paranthetically, my Wife was Baptised by and AoG minister (outside in a pond in November in New England). I was Baptised by a Baptist Minister indoors in a heated tank.

I can join a Baptist church at will, but She can't without being RE-Baptised by a Baptist Minister.

That's part of THEIR constitution and bylaws.

That's not true in the case of most baptist churches Bob. (maybe your local congregation said this, or maybe it is just heresay. Landmarkism churches might tend to do this).

Most baptist churches and pastors will ask the individual if they have been baptized before, and if they participated in a true, wilful believeers baptism (like it seems your wife did in the pond), then they would gladly accept her for membership.

In most baptist churches, it isn't a denominational requirement to re-baptise people because they've come from other denominations...but rather, only in the case where they have not had a true, willful (understanding) believer-baptism in the first place. (which pretty much only would apply to churches who practice infant-baptism, which the individual has no understanding of, and makes no true inward and personal decision of themselve to follow and align themselves with the Lord Jesus Christ).

Beyond Infant-baptism, I really can't think of any reason most any Baptist church would even consider requiring re-baptizing a person who has already participated in a true believers baptism before man and God; regardless the denomination.

kf4zmt
Dec 19th 2008, 03:09 PM
The problem comes when we start to make lists of what's authorized. Some might say that women couldn't speak, others would say that we couldn't have wine at communion, that we had to use grape juice. We would get into discussions about how to baptize and who to baptize. So even the things we agree on we can't agree on.


A NEW LAW
WORDS BY DEREK WEBB
donít teach me about politics and government
just tell me who to vote for
donít teach me about truth and beauty
just label my music

donít teach me how to live like a free man
just give me a new law

i donít wanna know if the answers arenít easy
so just bring it down from the mountain to me


i want a new law



donít teach me about moderation and liberty
i prefer a shot of grape juice

donít teach me about loving my enemies

donít teach me how to listen to the Spirit
just give me a new law

Fortunately, we don't have to make lists. God has given us the Bible as our guide and if we approach it in a logical and systematic manner it can be understood and adhered to.

The problem is that so many of us don't approach it logically and/or try to bind or loose where God has not bound or loosed. An awful lot of church problems are the result of opinions and not about matters of faith.

mikebr
Dec 19th 2008, 03:13 PM
Fortunately, we don't have to make lists. God has given us the Bible as our guide and if we approach it in a logical and systematic manner it can be understood and adhered to.

The problem is that so many of us don't approach it logically and/or try to bind or loose where God has not bound or loosed. An awful lot of church problems are the result of opinions and not about matters of faith.

The problem is that God is not a system and is not logical. I think the whole problem is that Scripture is ultimately about a person and we've made it about a book.

BCF
Dec 19th 2008, 03:17 PM
I guess what it all comes down to is whether or not the Church is teaching from the Spirit or from the Flesh.

If the Church is teaching through the Spirit.....it's teachings would be centered around the Fruits of the Spirit.....which begins with the Commandment that Jesus gave us which is Love one another as I have Loved you. If the Church is teaching and practicing that Fruit first (Love)...the rest of the Fruits of the Spirit would need to follow. After all.....it is Gods House of Worship....and controlled by Gods Spirit.

At least it should be.

If the Church is teaching in the Flesh....well then we have the problems that VR pointed out in his response from 2Peter 2.

Sadly that is the case with a lot of Churches in the world today.

That's just MO though,

Dave

mikebr
Dec 19th 2008, 03:20 PM
Is the church God's house of worship?

Or are we? ;)

What if we treated people like we treated the building we have meet in?

David Taylor
Dec 19th 2008, 03:24 PM
Their attitude and how the treat others....

Do they have other issues beyond those you mention above that they are at odds with the church about, that they turn into areas of strife, contention, and disunity within the body? Have they been counselled by the church to stop whatever the issue is, following the Matthew 18 example; and they still continue to choose to remain in defiance?

I'd ask those questions in wanting to better understand the situation; since your into-paragraph is pretty generic and vague.
What if they love others David, and treat them as Christ would but they believe different? should they be kicked out of fellowhip?


If they loved others, and if they treat others as Christ would treat them, then they wouldn't have put them in a situation that was at odds with the church.

I'm not sure why you keep dancing aroud the 'belief' and don't just put it out there, but whatever the "said belief" is that is causing the rift is probably one that either the church or they are unwilling to reconcile or forgoe on, that is causing the problem.

An example:

I believe in 1 God, and that is the God of the bible. I believe in following what Jesus taught, and treating others as He would do, all that stuff.

I go to a mormon church, and I talk with the people there, and kindly make it known in conversations that I disagree with their views on Joseph Smith, on Celestrial Progression, on the existence of the quorum of 12, polygamy and their views on procreating spirit children, etc...etc...
I can do all of this in as you say above "love others, and treat them as Christ would"....but I wouldn't be welcomed to remain. My views on too many things would create a division and an area of disunity with that belief group. Even though I was right and they were wrong, and even though I followed Christ's example in treating them.

No difference if I went to a JW kingdom hall, or a SDA church, or a Islamic Mosque, or a BaHai Temple.

Likewise, no different than if a Mormon, or JW, or SDA, or Muslim, or BaHai came to my local Chistian church and explained that they didn't want to believe the tenents of Christianity we believed, but wanted to retain their unbiblical beliefs and retain their membership.

In both cases, the visitor isn't unifying with the congregation on the beliefs of that congregation; therefore they are asked to leave so that they don't continue to sew discourd and division.

Whatever "beliefs" you haven't mentioned that resulted in dismissle from a church, are probably the answer to the 'why'. They were probably beliefs of discord and division that would have been harmful and detrimental to the membership of that congregation.

If not, then it could simply be a nutty church, because there are alot out there and more and more each day, which isn't soundly and firmly grounded on a solid bibilcal Christian foundation; and thereby you really didn't want to be there anyway to begin with.

kf4zmt
Dec 19th 2008, 03:25 PM
The problem is that God is not a system and is not logical. I think the whole problem is that Scripture is ultimately about a person and we've made it about a book.

God is not logical? Why then did He say "come let us reason together" (Isa 1:18)? So God has given us a book that is illogical and then expects us to use it to understand how we are to be saved? If so, I don't think any of us has any hope!

No, he gave us a brain along with a Bible that can be understood (Deuteronomy 30:11-14, 2 Corinthians 1:13, Ephesians 3:3-4) and He expects us to use the two of them to learn about Him!

BCF
Dec 19th 2008, 03:30 PM
Is the church God's house of worship?

Or are we? ;)

What if we treated people like we treated the building we have meet in?

Well....according to Jesus it is a House of Worship.

In Matthew 21:13 Jesus says this, "It is written, My house shall be called the house of prayer, but ye have made it a den of thieves."

kf4zmt
Dec 19th 2008, 03:33 PM
What if we treated people like we treated the building we have meet in?

Excellent point!!!!

BCF
Dec 19th 2008, 03:49 PM
What if we treated people like we treated the building we have meet in?

That's why Jesus tells us that we would know them by there Fruit.

The Fruit of the Spirit should be leading a Christian, and that Fruit of the Spirit would start with there Love walk as I outlined before. If there Love walk does not match up to what Jesus Commanded (Love one another as I have Loved you) well then their Love walk is being led by the flesh, and so is there Christian life is also being led by the flesh.

mikebr
Dec 19th 2008, 03:59 PM
If they loved others, and if they treat others as Christ would treat them, then they wouldn't have put them in a situation that was at odds with the church.

I'm not sure why you keep dancing aroud the 'belief' and don't just put it out there, but whatever the "said belief" is that is causing the rift is probably one that either the church or they are unwilling to reconcile or forgoe on, that is causing the problem.

An example:

I believe in 1 God, and that is the God of the bible. I believe in following what Jesus taught, and treating others as He would do, all that stuff.

I go to a mormon church, and I talk with the people there, and kindly make it known in conversations that I disagree with their views on Joseph Smith, on Celestrial Progression, on the existence of the quorum of 12, polygamy and their views on procreating spirit children, etc...etc...
I can do all of this in as you say above "love others, and treat them as Christ would"....but I wouldn't be welcomed to remain. My views on too many things would create a division and an area of disunity with that belief group. Even though I was right and they were wrong, and even though I followed Christ's example in treating them.

No difference if I went to a JW kingdom hall, or a SDA church, or a Islamic Mosque, or a BaHai Temple.

Likewise, no different than if a Mormon, or JW, or SDA, or Muslim, or BaHai came to my local Chistian church and explained that they didn't want to believe the tenents of Christianity we believed, but wanted to retain their unbiblical beliefs and retain their membership.

In both cases, the visitor isn't unifying with the congregation on the beliefs of that congregation; therefore they are asked to leave so that they don't continue to sew discourd and division.

Whatever "beliefs" you haven't mentioned that resulted in dismissle from a church, are probably the answer to the 'why'. They were probably beliefs of discord and division that would have been harmful and detrimental to the membership of that congregation.

If not, then it could simply be a nutty church, because there are alot out there and more and more each day, which isn't soundly and firmly grounded on a solid bibilcal Christian foundation; and thereby you really didn't want to be there anyway to begin with.


I've never said anything about it causing division. I'm not dancing around any belief David, I've mentioned several things.

Brother Mark
Dec 19th 2008, 04:02 PM
What if they love others David, and treat them as Christ would but they believe different? should they be kicked out of fellowhip?

It goes back to something mentioned earlier... what are they teaching? Are they talking about doctrines harmful to the body? Are they poisoning others? Or are they seeking? Wolves in sheep's clothing, look like sheep. ;)

David Taylor
Dec 19th 2008, 04:20 PM
I've never said anything about it causing division. I'm not dancing around any belief David, I've mentioned several things.

You don't have to Mike.

If they were kicked out of a church over a belief; then that belief (which I still haven't notice you metioning), is probably what caused the division.

Since they hold to the belief, they might not see it as division; but 'something' would have caused the church to ask them to leave.

Good chance it has to do with the 'belief' that is not being described or detailed yet. Just guessing though....

samphillipssr
Dec 19th 2008, 04:22 PM
Mike, I've preached the Gospel all over the USA. I have a well trimmed goatee and mouchtache ( The Bible teaches Jesus did ). Well, we were at a certain place and went to visit a church that had service a different night than most.

When the pastor saw me, he ask if I was a preacher. ( Not sure how he figured that out not knowing me )

When I told him I was, he commented on my facial hair and said I'd never preach in his church. Pretty much ask us to leave right then.

I didn't know the man nor had I ever implied that I desired to preach in "his" church. Actually that's why we were visiting. I got to preach sometimes as much as 4 times a day, and I was there to get " fed " myself for a change.

So, yes it's possible to get thrown out for looking like Jesus as well as acting like Him.

Thanks Mike, good question.

Sam

mikebr
Dec 19th 2008, 04:36 PM
You don't have to Mike.

If they were kicked out of a church over a belief; then that belief (which I still haven't notice you metioning), is probably what caused the division.

Since they hold to the belief, they might not see it as division; but 'something' would have caused the church to ask them to leave.

Good chance it has to do with the 'belief' that is not being described or detailed yet. Just guessing though....


But not necessarily.

David Taylor
Dec 19th 2008, 04:44 PM
But not necessarily.

Since you won't tell us what, I guess we'll never know.
:confused:confused:confused

mikebr
Dec 19th 2008, 04:45 PM
Mike, I've preached the Gospel all over the USA. I have a well trimmed goatee and mouchtache ( The Bible teaches Jesus did ). Well, we were at a certain place and went to visit a church that had service a different night than most.

When the pastor saw me, he ask if I was a preacher. ( Not sure how he figured that out not knowing me )

When I told him I was, he commented on my facial hair and said I'd never preach in his church. Pretty much ask us to leave right then.

I didn't know the man nor had I ever implied that I desired to preach in "his" church. Actually that's why we were visiting. I got to preach sometimes as much as 4 times a day, and I was there to get " fed " myself for a change.

So, yes it's possible to get thrown out for looking like Jesus as well as acting like Him.

Thanks Mike, good question.

Sam

Sadly this happens. We went to a church when I was young and we were told that we were welcome this time but next time they expected............ had something to do with length of hair and pants on women as if I remember correctly.

I'm not talking about this type of stuff. I asking are there specific beliefs, not necessarily that cause division in the body, not being taught by the person, that if a person says he believes he should not be allowed to attend?

Brother Mark
Dec 19th 2008, 04:45 PM
Since you won't tell us what, I guess we'll never know.
:confused:confused:confused

Well, he's trying to base it on a belief but scripture mentions more behavior. One can believe some nasty stuff and remain in church. But start speaking about that nasty stuff and problems rise up. There's plenty of scripture that speaks to how to deal with those that share false doctrines.

mikebr
Dec 19th 2008, 04:48 PM
If a person believes in the Trinity and Jesus as God's only begotten, born of a virgin, crucified, buried, resurrected and coming again what other beliefs about God do you think would constitute a person being kicked out of fellowship with other believers?



Since you won't tell us what, I guess we'll never know.
:confused:confused:confused

David I'm sure that you think I am talking about the discussions that I have had concerning Hell. I am not. Look at the OP.

I am asking a question. :OFFT:

Brother Mark
Dec 19th 2008, 04:50 PM
David I'm sure that you think I am talking about the discussions that I have had concerning Hell. I am not. Look at the OP.

I am asking a question. :OFFT:

The answer is... if the person keeps his mouth shut and never shares those beliefs, then he would be able to stay. But we know scripture says "From the abundance of the heart, the mouth speaks". So I doubt seriously that someone would be able to keep quiet and not go against the pastor and church if they believed a lot differently.

mikebr
Dec 19th 2008, 04:55 PM
Well, he's trying to base it on a belief but scripture mentions more behavior. One can believe some nasty stuff and remain in church. But start speaking about that nasty stuff and problems rise up. There's plenty of scripture that speaks to how to deal with those that share false doctrines.


So only when beliefs affect behavior should the church be concerned?

David Taylor
Dec 19th 2008, 05:14 PM
"OP: the Trinity and Jesus as God's only begotten, born of a virgin, crucified, buried, resurrected and coming again what other beliefs"

David I'm sure that you think I am talking about the discussions that I have had concerning Hell. I am not. Look at the OP.

I am asking a question. :OFFT:
I am talking about the topic. (or trying to)

You can't try and guess what you think I'm thinking, since I have no idea what you're talking about because you won't say what "other beliefs" are that resulted in someone being kicked out of a church.

If you explain what "other beliefs" are, then you'll get much more detailed and helpful answers.

Your question is just too vague the way you've presented it, for anyone to be able to give you much substance.

Let's try it a different way.

The example you gave of people being kicked out of a church for having "other beliefs"....

Do you know what those "other belief" are? (If so) Will you share them?

Brother Mark
Dec 19th 2008, 05:25 PM
So only when beliefs affect behavior should the church be concerned?

Yes. But I also said, indirectly, that beliefs always effect behavior. The body won't do what the mind doesn't believe. What's in the heart (i.e. what it believes) will come out the mouth and in the form of what we do.

mikebr
Dec 19th 2008, 06:00 PM
Thanks Eve, You speak the truth in Love. In the description I gave I simply did it to let people know that I was talking about what most people would call a good Christian. We do judge people's beliefs however. Beliefs about the Trinity, hell, the Rapture, etc have a tendency to cause people to question your love for Christ.



I am talking about the topic. (or trying to)

You can't try and guess what you think I'm thinking, since I have no idea what you're talking about because you won't say what "other beliefs" are that resulted in someone being kicked out of a church.

If you explain what "other beliefs" are, then you'll get much more detailed and helpful answers.

Your question is just too vague the way you've presented it, for anyone to be able to give you much substance.

Let's try it a different way.

The example you gave of people being kicked out of a church for having "other beliefs"....

Do you know what those "other belief" are? (If so) Will you share them?

I simply can't do any better than what I've posted here. Did you miss this or do they not qualify as "other beliefs"

I guess if I had to be specific, What if I didn't believe in the Rapture. And I told my pastor that I didn't believe in the Rapture would that be cause for him to ask me not to come to that particular church?

RabbiKnife
Dec 19th 2008, 06:04 PM
I was kicked out of one church, in part, because I refused to say that (1) if a Christian drank alcohol it was a sin or (2) that the gifts of tongues and interpretations had passed away with the death of the last Apostle or (3) that women could not be preachers. There were lots of other internal political issues, too, but these beliefs...and my refusal to accept or teach them...was a major source of irritation with the leadership.

So I was asked to leave.

Oh, yeah, I forgot to add. I was the Associate Pastor and the longest-tenured person on staff at the time!!!

Turns out that it was one of the best day of my life, although it took me a while to recognize the blessing of being kicked out of a church!!!

mikebr
Dec 19th 2008, 06:14 PM
I was kicked out of one church, in part, because I refused to say that (1) if a Christian drank alcohol it was a sin or (2) that the gifts of tongues and interpretations had passed away with the death of the last Apostle or (3) that women could not be preachers. There were lots of other internal political issues, too, but these beliefs...and my refusal to accept or teach them...was a major source of irritation with the leadership.

So I was asked to leave.

Oh, yeah, I forgot to add. I was the Associate Pastor and the longest-tenured person on staff at the time!!!

Turns out that it was one of the best day of my life, although it took me a while to recognize the blessing of being kicked out of a church!!!


These are they types of things I'm talking about. If I believe that its ok to drink alcohol and tell my pastor that I do yet I don't teach that people should start drinking should I be asked to leave? Just wondering if there are people who would admit that they think some people should be asked to leave simply because of what they believe.

StevenC
Dec 20th 2008, 06:30 AM
Thanks for your comments, but it seems that for the most part, (your comment about asking about OSAS is an exception) most of you have talked about actions. I'm talking about beliefs.

Say the person is a good upstanding, involved at church, don't drink, smoke, cheat on his wife, good to his kids, etc.; what BELIEFS would they have that would cause you not to fellowship with them?

I think it would largely depend on the church.

1. Not tithing / tithing to another organization.
2. Acceptance of heresy.
3. Rejection of core belief or tradition.

Questioning church doctrines in general is likely to make leaders perceive one as a threat. Especially if you don't accept their answers.

-Steven

StevenC
Dec 20th 2008, 06:57 AM
These are they types of things I'm talking about. If I believe that its ok to drink alcohol and tell my pastor that I do yet I don't teach that people should start drinking should I be asked to leave? Just wondering if there are people who would admit that they think some people should be asked to leave simply because of what they believe.

If ones beliefs condone or encourage sin and they proclaim they are a Christian. If they cannot be reasoned with then they should be removed.

-Steven

Ekeak
Dec 20th 2008, 02:45 PM
I believe someone should be kicked out of Church if they could fill the classification of being a "wolf". By wolf, I mean spiritually attacking followers of Christ throught bad fellowship (or perhaps simply teasing and jeering based on faith) or consciously trying to mislead believers in their walk with Christ. I believe that it is much harder to be a Christian outside of church than in church, because it is easier to love those who love you than to love those who don't. And perhaps even those who are mean or hate you.

Teke
Dec 20th 2008, 03:36 PM
Questioning church doctrines in general is likely to make leaders perceive one as a threat. Especially if you don't accept their answers.

-Steven

How would questioning make one a threat? Questioning doesn't mean that a church is going to change it's doctrinal stance. And since Jesus said the church would prevail ("...build my church...the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. ) no matter what, what is a threat?

chad
Dec 20th 2008, 07:16 PM
Sort of like it's my way or the highway Church. 100% obey and do what I say or your out?


I think it would largely depend on the church.

1. Not tithing / tithing to another organization.
2. Acceptance of heresy.
3. Rejection of core belief or tradition.

Questioning church doctrines in general is likely to make leaders perceive one as a threat. Especially if you don't accept their answers.

-Steven

mikebr
Dec 22nd 2008, 01:59 AM
I think it would largely depend on the church.

1. Not tithing / tithing to another organization.
2. Acceptance of heresy.
3. Rejection of core belief or tradition.

Questioning church doctrines in general is likely to make leaders perceive one as a threat. Especially if you don't accept their answers.

-Steven


Its funny because this exactly what Jesus did to the Jews. He rejected their traditions and they thought he was a heretic. And I'd say they kicked him out.

Brother Mark
Dec 22nd 2008, 02:01 AM
Its funny because this exactly what Jesus did to the Jews. He rejected their traditions and they thought he was a heretic. And I'd say they kicked him out.

Jesus also kicked a few people out of the temple. ;)

mikebr
Dec 22nd 2008, 02:11 AM
Jesus also kicked a few people out of the temple. ;)

It wasn't for asking questions and it wasn't for certain beliefs. Back to that behavior stuff.;)

Brother Mark
Dec 22nd 2008, 02:22 AM
It wasn't for asking questions and it wasn't for certain beliefs. Back to that behavior stuff.;)

But check out the behavior. Some of it was actually commanded in scripture. He threw out both those that sold, and those that bought.

And, we know that behavior is rooted in belief. So what one believes, will be reflected in what one does. It's that whole faith/works thing.

Thing is, God also warned us about wolves in sheep's clothing. We can't rightfully ignore those warnings either.

mikebr
Dec 22nd 2008, 02:26 AM
But check out the behavior. Some of it was actually commanded in scripture. He threw out both those that sold, and those that bought.

And, we know that behavior is rooted in belief. So what one believes, will be reflected in what one does. It's that whole faith/works thing.

Thing is, God also warned us about wolves in sheep's clothing. We can't rightfully ignore those warnings either.


I agree but some beliefs may cause a person to act better and love people more even though the belief wouldn't be accepted by the church? For instance if I believe that God loves homosexuals I am more apt to love homosexuals. But if I said loving homosexuals meant allowing them to come to church I may be kicked out. Or would I?

Brother Mark
Dec 22nd 2008, 02:35 AM
I agree but some beliefs may cause a person to act better and love people more even though the belief wouldn't be accepted by the church? For instance if I believe that God loves homosexuals I am more apt to love homosexuals. But if I said loving homosexuals meant allowing them to come to church I may be kicked out. Or would I?

When you start "saying things" you move into that doing phase of beliefs. It's one thing to keep a thought/belief completely in your head. It's another thing to start saying that thought and therein lies the problem. Because the mouth will speak what's in the heart.

So, if the church has an agreed doctrine and you begin to speak against it, then you are to be marked by that church.

There's a difference in having a belief and having an agenda. When one decides to speak their beliefs, they do need to be careful. In the end, flesh always goes too far so generally, if you let things play out, it will become evident to the church that something needs to be done. Mostly though, if someone sits in the pew, keeps their mouth shut, there shouldn't be a problem.

But as I said earlier, keeping the mouth shut, that behavior thing, is next to impossible. For the body will refuse to do what the mind does not believe. And Jesus taught us that whatever is in the heart, will come out.

Still, one needs to be careful. For someone can come to church with vastly different beliefs and be influenced by what is preached. The word, preached in power, has a big impact. Many people of different beliefs just wouldn't be comfortable in a church where something they didn't agree with was preached day in and day out.

mikebr
Dec 22nd 2008, 02:39 AM
When you start "saying things" you move into that doing phase of beliefs. It's one thing to keep a thought/belief completely in your head. It's another thing to start saying that thought and therein lies the problem. Because the mouth will speak what's in the heart.

So, if the church has an agreed doctrine and you begin to speak against it, then you are to be marked by that church.

There's a difference in having a belief and having an agenda. When one decides to speak their beliefs, they do need to be careful. In the end, flesh always goes too far so generally, if you let things play out, it will become evident to the church that something needs to be done. Mostly though, if someone sits in the pew, keeps their mouth shut, there shouldn't be a problem.

But as I said earlier, keeping the mouth shut, that behavior thing, is next to impossible. For the body will refuse to do what the mind does not believe. And Jesus taught us that whatever is in the heart, will come out.

Still, one needs to be careful. For someone can come to church with vastly different beliefs and be influenced by what is preached. The word, preached in power, has a big impact. Many people of different beliefs just wouldn't be comfortable in a church where something they didn't agree with was preached day in and day out.

What if the church is wrong? Should we keep our mouths shut or just leave?

Brother Mark
Dec 22nd 2008, 02:44 AM
What if the church is wrong? Should we keep our mouths shut or just leave?

Depends doesn't it? God lays out some pretty clear examples on how to deal with authority. One thing is certain, if I am not the pastor, then the sheep are not my responsibility like they are his. I would just move on because if I am not the pastor, then God hasn't called me to shepherd that flock.

Perhaps if someone had a direct word from God, like Paul, then it would be time to pull out some folks and start another church like Paul did on Solomon's church. But you better be right. Answering to God can be a fearful thing!

neverleaveunorfors
Dec 22nd 2008, 02:56 AM
My husband and I attended a church for several years. We were asked to officially join the church. I had to tell them I did not believe in predestination in the same manner they believed and taught it. Not only was I told I could not join the church, I was asked to not openly question their theology. From that point on, I was treated differently even though my beliefs had not changed in the slightest.
theology really should be left out of belief if its not sated in the word of God as let no man teach you but let the annointing you recieved teach you the Holy Spirit is your real Guide it will tell you what is right and just what is man made aand most theologens will not even consider any thing that does not go along with their theory hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm i hate to say this but I wont due respect for this web sight and their rules i must abide so .............. and any church that removes a member for their judgement of a person really does not go along with the word of God that is in my opinion Lots of Love James