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Romber
Dec 18th 2008, 01:53 PM
Whenever I read the OT, I become more confused as I don't know what to take as something to actually live by, or just read it to understand the laws back then.

For example, there was a passage (can't remember where) that stated what animals not to eat. Of course, that doesn't effect us now because (as far as I understand) the new testament freed us from most of the restrictions of the OT. Also, right before David died, he told Solomon to basically avenge a couple of people for him.

Now my question is, how do I know what to believe and teach in the Old Testament. I mean there surely are good things in the OT to live and learn about, but there are other things that are archaic and not very "christianly" (such as killing homosexuals)

I am really confused and would be very grateful if someone clarify this, show me some scripture and just explain the OT.

Thanks

kenrank
Dec 18th 2008, 02:10 PM
Whenever I read the OT, I become more confused as I don't know what to take as something to actually live by, or just read it to understand the laws back then.

For example, there was a passage (can't remember where) that stated what animals not to eat. Of course, that doesn't effect us now because (as far as I understand) the new testament freed us from most of the restrictions of the OT. Also, right before David died, he told Solomon to basically avenge a couple of people for him.

Now my question is, how do I know what to believe and teach in the Old Testament. I mean there surely are good things in the OT to live and learn about, but there are other things that are archaic and not very "christianly" (such as killing homosexuals)

I am really confused and would be very grateful if someone clarify this, show me some scripture and just explain the OT.

Thanks

Romber...you are asking a question that will get many answers. Many Christians believe that the NT trumps the OT and thus, something like the food laws are not applicable. Others believe the NT and OT work hand in hand, and that the Laws are still applicable to today. I fall into the later...but understand, out of the 613 laws, probably about 150 actually apply under today's conditions.

All I would say to you is to keep an open mind. While there are convincing arguements on both sides, and scripture to boot...your BEST tool is prayer and meditation. Ask God to guide you, ask him to make it clear to you...never take ANY man's opinion over what is written in black and white, and you'll find your way.

You are going to have to answer some hard questions. Are the "everlasting" laws everlasting...or did they exist in an everlasting state until certain things happened. It isn't easy....but that is why we are called to "study to show ourselves approved." God blesses us with answers when we diligently seek with questions.

Isa 28:9 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts.

With great effort comes great blessings.

Peace and blessing in your journey.
Ken

Kahtar
Dec 18th 2008, 02:14 PM
:o Explain the OT? Big job, that. Here's some advice. Ask the Holy Spirit to open your understanding, and, look beneath the surface.
Here's a starting point for you:
Luke 24:27
27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.
Moses=the first five books of OT
Prophets=all the major and minor prophets of the OT
All the scriptures = all the rests of the books of the OT
In other words, every book of the OT speaks about Jesus Christ, in one way or another.
Start in Genesis One, and look for hints, pictures, shadows that point to Christ.
Here's a sample for you:
Genesis 1:3-4
3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
4 And God saw the light, that [it was] good: and God divided the light from the darkness.
Where do you see Christ here?
Where does this light come from, since the sun is not created until the fourth day?
What is this light?
Compare this:
Revelation 21:23
23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb [is] the light thereof.

God's Word has many layers. The deeper you dig, the more stuff you find.
It is, except for the prophetical stuff, literal history, but at the same time, it is allegory and metaphor. It has both a natural and a spiritual application.
Look at the meaning of place names and people names, for those meanings have allegorial significance. For example, the list of Adam's children, from Adam to Noah, when you look at the name meanings, tell a story, a story about the fall of man, and the son of God coming down bringing truth and salvation, and rest.

Attitude makes a difference. If you are looking for reasons to discredit the Word, and God, then you will see only contradiction and bad stuff. If you are determined to learn the truth, though, you will find it.

Brother Mark
Dec 18th 2008, 02:14 PM
Whenever I read the OT, I become more confused as I don't know what to take as something to actually live by, or just read it to understand the laws back then.

For example, there was a passage (can't remember where) that stated what animals not to eat. Of course, that doesn't effect us now because (as far as I understand) the new testament freed us from most of the restrictions of the OT. Also, right before David died, he told Solomon to basically avenge a couple of people for him.

Now my question is, how do I know what to believe and teach in the Old Testament. I mean there surely are good things in the OT to live and learn about, but there are other things that are archaic and not very "christianly" (such as killing homosexuals)

I am really confused and would be very grateful if someone clarify this, show me some scripture and just explain the OT.

Thanks

Hi Romber. Look for the spiritual meaning of the OT. Just as Jesus taught in parables, so God too uses the OT like a parable. That's why the NT calls it types and shadows. It all points to Jesus. Look for Jesus in the OT and you will enjoy it immensely. As both posters above mentioned, go into it with an open heart and ask God to illuminate your understanding.

Blessings,

Mark

Samsheep2
Dec 18th 2008, 02:33 PM
Whenever I read the OT, I become more confused as I don't know what to take as something to actually live by, or just read it to understand the laws back then. Hi, and might I say a very sober asking on your part (to clarify) but from all the answers you will get (mine including) it will seem as if we are all drunk - you know like they on the day of Pentecost (Acts 2)


Now my question is, how do I know what to believe and teach in the Old Testament. I mean there surely are good things in the OT to live and learn about, but there are other things that are archaic and not very "christianly" (such as killing homosexuals) Just a plain simple answer to this would be just teach what you understand and not what you do not understand, that will suffice you until!!! As for killing the above might not be wise in the day we live in, could get you in a lot of trouble.


I am really confused and would be very grateful if someone clarify this, show me some scripture and just explain the OT. Since I've read all the advice given so far allow me to point you to just one passage and you tell me what you think it means:

Psalms 119:130 The entrance of thy words giveth light; it giveth understanding unto the simple.
After you can accept this then I can say welcome to the club of 'not yet arrived'.

God bless,

diffangle
Dec 18th 2008, 03:44 PM
Whenever I read the OT, I become more confused as I don't know what to take as something to actually live by, or just read it to understand the laws back then.

For example, there was a passage (can't remember where) that stated what animals not to eat. Of course, that doesn't effect us now because (as far as I understand) the new testament freed us from most of the restrictions of the OT.

The unclean animas do affect us today, the food laws are for man's benefit, Messiah didn't change our digestive tracts or the make up of the garbage disposals(pigs... they still don't have sweat glands so all the toxins they consume build up in their tissue which you in turn consume and they are still parasite incubators, shrimp,tuna, etc) that people eat. Here's an interesting article that talks about how science today is now discovering the toxic effects eating unclean animals has on our health... http://www.lcg.org/cgi-bin/lcg/studytopics/lcg-st.cgi?category=Christianity1&item=1116549049



Also, right before David died, he told Solomon to basically avenge a couple of people for him.
I'm not familiar wth that, I know that David wasn't allowed to be the one to build the Temple b/c of the blood he shed but Solomon was b/c he was a man of peace.



Now my question is, how do I know what to believe and teach in the Old Testament. I mean there surely are good things in the OT to live and learn about, but there are other things that are archaic and not very "christianly" (such as killing homosexuals)

Well there are a couple of things here... first, according to the law, you had to have two or more witnesses to the act to put someone to death which is extremely hard to do, which is probably the reason we don't have any examples in Scriptures of any man putting another man to death for being homosexual. Secondly, as Ken pointed out, b/c of circumstances not all of the laws can apply today(like Temple sacrifices and priestly duties and tithes, b/c there is no Levitical priesthood today, etc), we no longer live in a theocratic society so we can't just kill homosexuals. Thirdly, Messiah didn't nail the laws to the cross, He still doesn't want people practicing homosexuality, what He nailed to the cross was the ordinance against that act which was the death penalty and man-made ordinances.

scourge39
Dec 18th 2008, 05:01 PM
The main thing to remember when reading the OT is that it prophesies both the first and Second Comings of Christ. I recommend that you study the book of Hebrews in the NT before reading the OT. It will show you how the OT points to Jesus and establish an understanding of the 'types' and 'shadows' that illustrate that relationship. That should make your OT studies more profitable. When reading the OT, remember that Christ is the central figure to which ALL of it alludes. Again, it's central feature is Jesus, not rituals, the Law, or anything else. While those other aspects are important, they're merely window dressing. In John 5:39, Jesus Christ himself said that the Scriptures testify of him. In the context of the passage, he's referring to the OT. After his resurrection, Luke 24:27 and Luke 24:44-45 indicate that Jesus reemphasized God's revelation of him in the OT. Luke 24:27 particularly stresses that ALL of the OT speaks of him. The phrase, 'Moses and the Prophets' means from Genesis through Malachi. Only by recognizing that fact will the OT become meaningful to you as a Christian.

Romber
Dec 18th 2008, 08:00 PM
Ok thanks for the many replies. It has helped a lot to clarify. I knew what I asked was quite a large task, but you guys seem to have nailed it pretty well. The only thing that is still nagging me pretty bad is how do I treat the laws of the OT. I know you already answered it but, for example:homosexuals, what how do I treat the verse that says to kill them (I can't think of the exact verse right now, but I'm sure you know which one I am talking about). Is there some definitive historicity that defines what we believe in the OT? Gah, I feel like I'm rambling, but what I am trying to convey is that is there any rock solid history/evidence/proof of what OT laws we still follow, or are all the OT laws fall under an ambiguous cover that needs to be interpreted specifically by the reader for todays life. Back when they were written, they were in fact laws and people abided by them, but for today they are a bit different.

I don't mean to sound so whiny about an answer, but this is really confusing for me.

Kahtar
Dec 18th 2008, 08:09 PM
The spirit of the law says to love your neighbor. You don't treat a homosexual any differently than you would anyone else. As for the unsaved, we cannot expect them to abide by God's rules.
One who is saved, but still follows the flesh, be it by homosexuality or any other sin, love says to gently and with love show them the way of escape.
As for OT laws, the Holy Spirit writes the law upon our hearts, thus, do those things which you know in your heart are right to do, and conversely, don't do the things you know are wrong to do. Don't worry about the rest until the Holy Spirit brings it to you to deal with.

Rullion Green
Dec 18th 2008, 08:12 PM
Ok thanks for the many replies. It has helped a lot to clarify. I knew what I asked was quite a large task, but you guys seem to have nailed it pretty well. The only thing that is still nagging me pretty bad is how do I treat the laws of the OT. I know you already answered it but, for example:homosexuals, what how do I treat the verse that says to kill them (I can't think of the exact verse right now, but I'm sure you know which one I am talking about). Is there some definitive historicity that defines what we believe in the OT? Gah, I feel like I'm rambling, but what I am trying to convey is that is there any rock solid history/evidence/proof of what OT laws we still follow, or are all the OT laws fall under an ambiguous cover that needs to be interpreted specifically by the reader for todays life. Back when they were written, they were in fact laws and people abided by them, but for today they are a bit different.

I don't mean to sound so whiny about an answer, but this is really confusing for me.

God was showing Israel that he ment business so to speak, His laws were to be obayed and if the sin was deemed to be bad enough death was the punishment to be given. This may seem harsh now but God had just Choosen a people and had to give them rules to abide by because there neighbours were pagan and Israel kept being influensed by them.

Those commandment to stone and kill were for a certain time and place in history and were needed, this was for the protection of Israel and the blessing of the whole world as the Messiah would come from Israel and they had to be protected and they had to obide by Gods rules.

Romber
Dec 19th 2008, 01:22 AM
God was showing Israel that he ment business so to speak, His laws were to be obayed and if the sin was deemed to be bad enough death was the punishment to be given. This may seem harsh now but God had just Choosen a people and had to give them rules to abide by because there neighbours were pagan and Israel kept being influensed by them.

Those commandment to stone and kill were for a certain time and place in history and were needed, this was for the protection of Israel and the blessing of the whole world as the Messiah would come from Israel and they had to be protected and they had to obide by Gods rules.

Thanks a lot! This is what I was looking for in terms of answers as to WHY there were such strict laws

Brother Mark
Dec 19th 2008, 01:26 AM
Thanks a lot! This is what I was looking for in terms of answers as to WHY there were such strict laws

And they were pointing to Jesus. Look at the Jubilee year, it was fulfilled in Christ. Yet, when Israel did not keep the Jubilee year or the Sabbath years, they went into bondage for 70 years, one for each sabbath year.

The types were very important to God. The law leads us to Christ.

kenrank
Dec 19th 2008, 01:38 AM
Ok thanks for the many replies. It has helped a lot to clarify. I knew what I asked was quite a large task, but you guys seem to have nailed it pretty well. The only thing that is still nagging me pretty bad is how do I treat the laws of the OT. I know you already answered it but, for example:homosexuals, what how do I treat the verse that says to kill them (I can't think of the exact verse right now, but I'm sure you know which one I am talking about). Is there some definitive historicity that defines what we believe in the OT? Gah, I feel like I'm rambling, but what I am trying to convey is that is there any rock solid history/evidence/proof of what OT laws we still follow, or are all the OT laws fall under an ambiguous cover that needs to be interpreted specifically by the reader for todays life. Back when they were written, they were in fact laws and people abided by them, but for today they are a bit different.

I don't mean to sound so whiny about an answer, but this is really confusing for me.

Just thought I would throw this in for consideration Romber. The Law of God was not given at Sinai as many teach. God's Laws were well know before Moses came down off the mountain. In fact, in Gen 26:5, we see Abraham as having kept God's laws, commandments, statutes, and charge.

At Sinai, Israel was about to become a nation. The Law's put in writing to act as the nation's judicial system. In others words, prior to Sinai, sin was defined, but there was no prosecution of law breaking because Israel was not a nation yet. But when they became a nation, all the law was written out and it was agreed upon (covenant) that Israel would follow the Laws. They were to live under the jurisdiction and authority of God.

We live outside of Israel today, and even the nation of Israel is NOT governed by the authority or under the jurisdication of God. It is a secularly ruled nation. So the prosecution aspects of the law are not applicable now. There will be no killing of a homo-sexual, or any other act of sin. There is no authority for that today. It is still sin, but it is not prosecutable.

In addition, there is clearly a "spirit of the law" that is inferred in Torah, but not outright spoken. Nevertheless, we see Paul and Messiah both speaking from this aspect. What that spirit was, is something like homosexuality is a sin...and is punishable by death. (Again, only when living under the jurisdication and authority of God...which we don't currently) But, an effort is to be made to get the law breaker, the sinner, to repent and turn away from his ways. Death is the last resort! It wasn't like somebody got caught in an act and was killed. Judges were set in place, multiple witnesses needed...in a lot of ways, it is like the judicial system of the US...just not as liberal. But again, just to be clear, one should have been given an opportunity to repent. Remember the story of Messiah and the prostitute. Jews with stones in hand ready to stone her. He convicted THEM with his words...and gave her the opportunity to repent. Maybe if she didn't the story turns out different...but the point it, she did and was not stoned.

I hope that helps in understanding that aspect of the law.

Peace.
Ken

Romber
Dec 19th 2008, 02:53 AM
Yes, that helped out a great deal too Ken. Tonight I will read Hebrews, then it's time to dive into the OT as I am getting tired of NT reading non stop :D

Thanks to all who helped.

Samsheep2
Dec 19th 2008, 12:51 PM
Yes, that helped out a great deal too Ken. Tonight I will read Hebrews, then it's time to dive into the OT as I am getting tired of NT reading non stop :D

Thanks to all who helped.

Hi again Romber, I can't help but wonder what's bothering you about 'killing homos' - are you wanting to kill one or do you think they should be killed or??? Please don't missunderstand me but your prior statements and then this one above which I have underlined - tell me your reading is like reading a newspaper.

For instance, Paul tells young Timothy to study so he can rightly divide the word of truth. Truth doesn't come by reading but by revelation of the Spirit since He is the 'Spirit of truth'.

To be tired of the NT and to go backwards will never satisfy you. Even reading Hebrews as you say above will not. Allow me to challenge you to do this;...

1.Start at Romans and when you come to Jesus (used 935 times in the NT) stop and ask yourself "What is Paul saying about Jesus"?

After you do this the 38 times His name is used and your instrests are bored/dulled/tired of study about Him then you have a problem seeing as He (Jesus) is the NT.

God bless,
Sam

Romber
Dec 19th 2008, 01:52 PM
Hi again Romber, I can't help but wonder what's bothering you about 'killing homos' - are you wanting to kill one or do you think they should be killed or??? Please don't missunderstand me but your prior statements and then this one above which I have underlined - tell me your reading is like reading a newspaper.

No, no. I understand what you mean perfectly. The reason I kept mentioning killing of homosexuals was because it is more of a specific case I am always dealing with when it comes to the bible.

A scenario typically goes like this:

"If God was so kind, why do we have death? If he is so kind, then why does he instruct us to kill homos in the OT?"

I never have really had an answer for the second half, so it was like a perfect time to bring it up now.


To be tired of the NT and to go backwards will never satisfy you. Even reading Hebrews as you say above will not. Allow me to challenge you to do this;...


I probably spoke to soon when I said I was bored of NT, but I had been reading NT straight for the longest time and felt like it might of been a nice change to OT. Don't worry though, I will do the challenge you have said.

Brother Mark
Dec 19th 2008, 01:57 PM
Romber,

God did give the law to kill homosexuals in the OT. However, let's keep in mind he also required witnesses which made the law almost impossible to enforce. He wanted to show how severely wrong sin was and the consequences attached to it. Then, he put his Son through the required punishment for the sins in order to fulfill the requirement of the law. Now all homosexuals have a chance to live life to the fullest, through repentance from sin towards Christ Jesus.

The law was put in place to teach and to lead us to Christ. The penalty for sin is severe, as stated in the OT law. Jesus fulfilled that penalty completely for those that choose to trust in Him.

kenrank
Dec 19th 2008, 02:08 PM
Yes, that helped out a great deal too Ken. Tonight I will read Hebrews, then it's time to dive into the OT as I am getting tired of NT reading non stop :D

Thanks to all who helped.

There is so much to pick from...but have you ever sat down and read the life of Joseph? It starts in Genesis 37 and runs to the end of the book. Amazing story of grace, God's power, and forgiveness...plus, it's just a GREAT story!

Peace.
Ken

Samsheep2
Dec 20th 2008, 02:39 AM
No, no. I understand what you mean perfectly. The reason I kept mentioning killing of homosexuals was because it is more of a specific case I am always dealing with when it comes to the bible. A scenario typically goes like this:

"If God was so kind, why do we have death? If he is so kind, then why does he instruct us to kill homos in the OT?" I never have really had an answer for the second half, so it was like a perfect time to bring it up now. My friend, first off His ways are past finding out down here - but later when we get to heaven I am sure you can ask why and He will tell you - Now, I could tell you what i think was the reason from scripture but rest assured it will open up a can of worms. But I will help you by saying:
First, tell me why God killed all except Noah and His three sons and wives?
Second, Do you know where the first act of sodomy took place?
Third, Do you know who the first sodomites were?

Thanks, Sam


I probably spoke to soon when I said I was bored of NT, but I had been reading NT straight for the longest time and felt like it might of been a nice change to OT. Don't worry though, I will do the challenge you have said. No, not to soon just not clear.

Romber
Dec 20th 2008, 02:58 AM
First, tell me why God killed all except Noah and His three sons and wives?
The world was so full of sin. Like a start over

Second, Do you know where the first act of sodomy took place?
I am guessing somewhere pre-flood. I don't know any specifics though

Third, Do you know who the first sodomites were?


Sodom and Gomorrah?

JesusMySavior
Dec 20th 2008, 03:04 AM
The OT points to Jesus Christ. I believe every law that has ever needed to be followed has been completed and perfected in Christ. The scriptures attest to that.

Romans 3 is a POWERFUL chapter and is a good one to study. Romans 3 says that whatever the law says it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be stopped and the whole world may become guilty before God. wow. BUT NOW the righteousness OF God is revealed apart from the law, EVEN the righteousness OF God IN Christ Jesus, on all and to all WHO BELIEVE. For there is no difference (neither jew nor greek, law follower or law breaker) - ALL HAVE SINNED and fall short of the glory of God, being justified FREELY by HIS GRACE through the redemption that is IN Christ Jesus, whom God sent forth as a propitiation for our sins, through His blood, by faith, so that God may demonstrate His righteousness, that in His foreberance God passed over all sins previously committed (the law) and to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness that He might be just and the JUSTIFIER of the one who has FAITH IN JESUS CHRIST. So where is boasting? It is excluded! By what law? of works? Nope! Of faith, therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law... so on and so forth. We don't abolish the law by having faith in Christ, on the contrary we actually COMPLETE it, because HE is complete! Amen? Amen!

So what does that mean for us, whether jew or gentile? It means if we have faith in Jesus, the law is completed IN us, because of the work that Christ has completed at calvary! Hallelujah! Isn't that great?

That's right out of scripture too - that's not my own opinion.

Galatians 3:13-14 says that Jesus became a curse for us so that the blessing of Abraham might come upon those who have faith in Christ, through the promise of the Holy Spirit.

Romans 8 says that the just requirement of the law has been fulfilled in us who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit, which is made complete by trusting and having faith in Christ!

I can't believe that some people still think that following the OT laws are still mandatory or useful to getting you closer to the Lord!

Oh, foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Christ has clearly been portrayed as crucified before you! Did you receive the Spirit of God by faith or by the works of the law? Are you so foolish to believe that what God started you can perfect by the works of the law? (Galatians 3)

Ephesians 2:8 says that we are saved by grace so that no man may boast of his own works in the law!

It's ALL OVER scripture - the LAW POINTED TO CHRIST!!!! That's it, baby! Christ is our redemption!


Colossians 2:20-something (i think) says that no one should judge another in food or drink, and don't listen to the nonsense that says "do not touch, do not taste, do not handle".

All of the works of the law are now dead! Christ has completed them. And we should seek nothing but to live for Christ Jesus and love one another as He taught us through His Word. I don't know about you, but I'm relying on Jesus for my entrance into heaven! :pp

JesusisGod
Dec 20th 2008, 03:12 AM
Romber,
Kahtar's last post was very wise and it would be wise to heed it.