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Forgiven Alaskan
Dec 18th 2008, 06:04 PM
Maybe people should be allowed to marry younger? I hear Mary was in her early teens when she gave birth to Jesus. Or is there some underlying problem that make teens so desperate to have a bf/gf? Is there peer pressure involved at all? I'm referring to that teenage bracket here, exluding late teens and early 20 somethings.

Romber
Dec 18th 2008, 08:10 PM
I would definitely say peer pressure. Everyone starts popping up with bf/gf at the Junior High level and it almost becomes the "thing" to do. Sadly, most relations aren't really "relations" They are just a get together so they can have sex without looking like "whores" or anything. I'm not saying most relations are like that, but a large majority that I see in school revolve around that.

TexasBeliever
Dec 18th 2008, 08:16 PM
Forgive my sarcasm, but the answer to the lovesick "sickness" IS marriage.

Seriously, marriage is work brother. After about two years, the dreamy-eyed syndrome wears off and then the real work begins. Like how to love that person the way God does, even when they hurt you and you realize that you have zero incommon with them.

The answer isn't marriage unless you are mature and ready to stick it out no matter how hard it gets and work your backside off.

unkerns
Dec 19th 2008, 03:49 AM
I would say that theres no problem marrying that young, but Mary was way more mature than probably even the nicest girl is these days. If you are two that are devoted to the Lord and forsaking your childishness, and walking in wisdom than I believe it will work.

Cara Lott
Dec 19th 2008, 08:42 PM
I would say that theres no problem marrying that young, but Mary was way more mature than probably even the nicest girl is these days. I agree that Mary "was way more mature" -- that's clear from her devotion, humility, and prayer. But, I don't agree with saying "theres no problem marrying that young." I've heard that some scholars think Mary was around 14 years old. Anyone now-a-days that young should not be considering marriage. Personally, I don't think jr. highers are mature enough even to date, and I don't think anyone should marry until they're at least 18 (unless they had children together).

I think that there's not only peer pressure, but also some pressure from parents, especially moms 'cause they think it's "so cute." Also, I've heard that studies show that teen girls whose fathers aren't active in they're lives are more likely to seek relationships than girls whose fathers are more involved. I don't know about guys.

I'd have to say, the answer is either get married or accept being single for the time being and let God fill that hole in His time and way (i.e. He'll give you someone, He'll teach you how to be content and use your singlness for His glory).

unkerns
Dec 19th 2008, 10:42 PM
Cara - we feel the same way, but these factors are all based on a completely different environments from the one in Mary's time. We see that alone from the tremendous divorce rate. The bible even tells us that one children we be like they are now

Ekeak
Dec 20th 2008, 02:59 PM
Well, I'd rather never get married, but I think you can fall in love with anybody. It's just some people take more time than others.

Revinius
Dec 20th 2008, 06:29 PM
I got no problem with Christians from solid Christian families getting married young (with preferably the support of those families) but in our societal context, where young people arent generally encouraged to be responsible, i can only see ill and alot of single mothers coming from such legislation.

bondservant4him
Dec 23rd 2008, 03:17 PM
Well, I'd rather never get married, but I think you can fall in love with anybody. It's just some people take more time than others.

i dont want to get married but that doesnt mean i dont want a girlfriend. is it wrong to have a girlfriend with no intentions to get married?

Athanasius
Dec 23rd 2008, 04:43 PM
i dont want to get married but that doesnt mean i dont want a girlfriend. is it wrong to have a girlfriend with no intentions to get married?

Why do you want a girlfriend but not a wife?

unkerns
Dec 23rd 2008, 04:59 PM
Theres no point in having a girlfriend, and not a wife. That is the focus of courting to one day get married.

bondservant4him
Dec 24th 2008, 04:21 AM
Theres no point in having a girlfriend, and not a wife. That is the focus of courting to one day get married.
i dont want that kind of commitment i guess but that doesnt mean i dont want girls know what i mean?

Athanasius
Dec 24th 2008, 04:31 AM
i dont want that kind of commitment i guess but that doesnt mean i dont want girls know what i mean?

You want the benefits of a relationship without the commitment of a relationship? In short, then, you want many different girls? That's a very worldly view, especially in regards to women. Do you believe scripture at all speaks for or against such a thing?

CoffeeCat
Dec 24th 2008, 05:20 AM
If you're a Christian...

Being in love with someone means not just loving them ENOUGH to want to marry them, but loving them the way Christ loves them -- loving them enough to hand them over to Christ, and hand YOURSELF over to Christ, and trusting your relationship to Him. A relationship in which you love each other needs to also fully honour God, and nothing less. His will for the both of you needs to be held high.... and if the relationship is a God-honouring one which is serious and not self-seeking, marriage is where it'll head because you're in love with that person and you want to share Christ's love with them for always. If, on the other hand, your relationship is surrounded by any hesitancy to commit.... let alone commit to sharing Christ's love.... it shouldn't head towards marriage, and shouldn't be a relationship. And I speak from experience on that.

If you want to date someone but DON'T want it to head towards marriage, what's your motive? Are you, for instance, serving Christ? Would you be taking advantage of your dating partner at all?

Always consider the REALLY tough questions. If you're young, my honest advice is.... stay friends with people! Pray with them! Laugh with them! Get to know them in groups! But no need to awaken desire before the time's right to find a spouse who wants to love Christ with you.

bondservant4him
Dec 24th 2008, 02:18 PM
You want the benefits of a relationship without the commitment of a relationship? In short, then, you want many different girls? That's a very worldly view, especially in regards to women. Do you believe scripture at all speaks for or against such a thing?

all im saying is i dont want to be married because i am not a good with commitment and i dont want to divorce but just cause i dont want to be married doesnt mean i dont want girls to like me. thats what im saying

RedBird777
Dec 24th 2008, 04:37 PM
The reasons for the difference in ages in marriage is all about society and the economy.
Back in Biblical times, women did not go out and get jobs - that was the man's job. Women were there to mother the children while the fathers made money for the family to live (or worked on the farm or whatever they had to do). So this meant that when a girl was able to have children, they would marry.
For our day and age, a couple young teenagers can NOT make it on their own. The way our society is and the economy is, we have to go through college (or at the very least) go through high school to get a job and have the ability to sustain a family.

The times have drastically changed. It is more difficult for our time because we have to wait with many sexual urges whereas back in Biblical times when they did not have to wait.


So for the lovesick puppies...you're gonna have to wait. Besides, you're not mature enough in today's society when you are 15 to go out and start up a family. Also, I would recommend waiting for someone you TRULY love and learn what love is...which happens when you get older.

Revinius
Dec 24th 2008, 04:59 PM
The reasons for the difference in ages in marriage is all about society and the economy.
Back in Biblical times, women did not go out and get jobs - that was the man's job. Women were there to mother the children while the fathers made money for the family to live (or worked on the farm or whatever they had to do). So this meant that when a girl was able to have children, they would marry.
For our day and age, a couple young teenagers can NOT make it on their own. The way our society is and the economy is, we have to go through college (or at the very least) go through high school to get a job and have the ability to sustain a family.

The times have drastically changed. It is more difficult for our time because we have to wait with many sexual urges whereas back in Biblical times when they did not have to wait.


So for the lovesick puppies...you're gonna have to wait. Besides, you're not mature enough in today's society when you are 15 to go out and start up a family. Also, I would recommend waiting for someone you TRULY love and learn what love is...which happens when you get older.

Your premises sound appealing, but i see no biblical reason for your conclusion. Does the bible say people have to wait? Does it say we shouldnt bring up our kids to be more responsible and thus more equiped for life?

Just some questions to think on. I tend to strongly dislike the old 'society dictates *whatever*' line of thinking (and perhaps that is a fault of mine).

Revinius
Dec 24th 2008, 05:05 PM
all im saying is i dont want to be married because i am not a good with commitment and i dont want to divorce but just cause i dont want to be married doesnt mean i dont want girls to like me. thats what im saying

So... you would rather dishonour a girl because you're too immature and cant control your urges? In my country we have a phrase: 'man up!'. Take responsibility as your God desires (and Adam did not) and be the man you need to be.

I recently did a study on 'men from Hebrews 11' and one of the big things i got from all these guys is their depth of faith, they truly had faith that could move mountains; these guys were Men of God. I wholeheartedly recommend you checking these dudes out and look at yourself, and see what being a man truly is.

bondservant4him
Dec 24th 2008, 06:23 PM
So... you would rather dishonour a girl because you're too immature and cant control your urges? In my country we have a phrase: 'man up!'. Take responsibility as your God desires (and Adam did not) and be the man you need to be.

I recently did a study on 'men from Hebrews 11' and one of the big things i got from all these guys is their depth of faith, they truly had faith that could move mountains; these guys were Men of God. I wholeheartedly recommend you checking these dudes out and look at yourself, and see what being a man truly is.
how am i dishonoring a girl? and what urges are you talking about?

Revinius
Dec 25th 2008, 02:10 AM
how am i dishonoring a girl? and what urges are you talking about?

Well, if you are dating without the intention of marriage then you are bringing dishonour to a girl (as you have no intention to marry). The purpose of dating/courting is marriage, and if one does it without such an intention one is opening oneself up to feelings and desires that are altogether no good outside of marriage. Make sense?

Athanasius
Dec 25th 2008, 03:09 AM
how am i dishonoring a girl? and what urges are you talking about?

As a Christian our relationship model is Christ in relation to the church (I know, this is a lost concept for us young people). Do you believe you can, within a Biblical context, adhere to your relationship ideal of "love without commitment"? In other words, does scripture allow for this sort of polyamorous living?

motorcyclesfly
Dec 30th 2008, 04:36 PM
I really don't know if marriage is the answer. I have two friends who married "young" -- at eighteen. One couple had dated on and off a few years and decided that they ought to just get married because they had been going out for so long and it was the "logical next step". Both were so-so Christians, didn't invite God into their marriage, and just like their dating days, marriage became an on again, off again situation. After a few separations and two kids over three years, they decided to end it. Both of them now claim they weren't ready and that it was immaturity and not knowing what to expect from marriage that got them. The other couple, though, has always seemed happy. Neither are very strong Christians but they have a lot of support and do go to church. Their church offers a lot of help for newlyweds and young couples, which is great. Both of them wanted to have a large family and didn't want to wait, and so far it's worked out. Generally, I think that's pretty rare though. I know I don't consider myself ready for marriage yet, by any means.

zara92
Jan 20th 2009, 11:15 PM
I've seen enough high school relationships to know that teenagers, at least most of them, are not ready to get married. Many start dating just days after meeting their new bf/gf. Within a month they are kissing, holding hands, making out, saying I love you. but then another month (if even that long) goes by and they realize...they really don't like eachother at all. so then they break up and feel bad...and start dating someone else the next month. this repeats over and over...it's sickning. I've seen a lot of this from my friends. their main concern is getting a boyfriend, it doesn't matter who (as long as he's cute). and I do think there's a lot of peer pressure involved. They need to have someone to go with to the dances (yes I know someone who only dated a guy cause they wanted a boyfriend for the dance) to hold their hand in the hall way, to buy them gifts. it's crazy to me but that's what I see and hear. I guess this sounds pretty cynical but it's been frustrating to witness this.

about dating without the intention of marriage: there is no point in this. I've heard stuff like this from other people and I've been baffled by it. If you don't intend on ever getting married, what is the purpose of the relationship? what do you intend to get out of it?

Forgiven Alaskan
Mar 18th 2009, 10:07 PM
bondservant4him, It would seem you need to ask yourself why you are so afraid of commitment. There is nothing to be afraid of and fear is not from God.

RedBird777
Mar 25th 2009, 09:37 PM
Your premises sound appealing, but i see no biblical reason for your conclusion. Does the bible say people have to wait? Does it say we shouldnt bring up our kids to be more responsible and thus more equiped for life?

Just some questions to think on. I tend to strongly dislike the old 'society dictates *whatever*' line of thinking (and perhaps that is a fault of mine).
Would you let your 14 year old daughter marry someone? Or your 14 year old son? The Bible does not say when one should marry. I have never seen a verse that says that someone has to marry at a certain age.

There area few factors as to when one marries:


Economics
Society
Maturity
Parents
Government

Now I will explain each one as best as I can.


In today's day and age in the United States, it is common practice for people to go to college, get an education, and get a job started. The less education one has, the less of a chance people can make enough money to raise and support a family. To successfully raise a family, it is easier to have a better paying job, so the children and parents can eat, clothe themselves, and have a roof over their heads.
Back when Mary was 14, she married a man who had a steady job that let them raise a family. They were both ready for marriage, and were also ready to start a family. That's what was able to happen due to the economics.
Society frowns upon young marriages. What would you think if you were to see a couple, perhaps with a baby, and they were only in their mid-teens? Wouldn't you question that? Perhaps wonder why they would do this at such a young age? Society is built this way so people would "hopefully" (I use this sentence lightly) see that there are wrongs.
Kids aren't mature at 14 years old (I know there are the extremely rare exceptions, but bear with me). They cling to their parents, they aren't completely knowledgeable of the real world, and they will hurt themselves in the long run. There is very little wisdom in mid-teens, and that lack of wisdom will not help when they need to make real-life decisions.
Here's where we get Biblical: "Honor thy mother and father." The last time a mother or father wanted there 14 year old child to marry is...well...an old thought. There are no parents that I know of that will let their children marry at such a young age. They know this because they have MUCH more experience and wisdom than their children. They also know, or at least predict, what sort of stress and troubles their children will go through. I highly doubt that if a 14 year old goes to his/her parents and say that he's in love that they would believe him/her. They do not know what true love is, and they won't until they are married; at least they will have a somewhat better idea when they have more experience when they are older.
We are supposed to honor the government - no matter how bad it is. We are supposed to respect the laws of the land (which can also somewhat go under "society"). The government DOES have laws about marriage - including age. I believe there is one state that does allow marriage at 14, but with parental consent. And there are more states which allow 16 year olds to marry, but with parental consent. Then there are the rest which don't allow anyone under 18 to marry.

Now, I understand what you mean by the "society dictates this" thinking. However, one must look at the world as well, and see if the children are able to pull it off.

Again, I must stress that it is NOT Biblically stated as to when one should marry. However, it does say in 1 Corinthians chapter 7 whether or not one should marry. We must use the wisdom and knowledge that God gave us in order to figure stuff like this out.

Revinius
Mar 26th 2009, 02:47 AM
Would you let your 14 year old daughter marry someone? Or your 14 year old son?

My own feelings on the matter arent the issue.


The Bible does not say when one should marry. I have never seen a verse that says that someone has to marry at a certain age.

So.... why are you applying a mandatory age?



In today's day and age in the United States, it is common practice for people to go to college, get an education, and get a job started. The less education one has, the less of a chance people can make enough money to raise and support a family. To successfully raise a family, it is easier to have a better paying job, so the children and parents can eat, clothe themselves, and have a roof over their heads.
Back when Mary was 14, she married a man who had a steady job that let them raise a family. They were both ready for marriage, and were also ready to start a family. That's what was able to happen due to the economics.

We are more prosperous (higher standard of living per capita) than we were in the 50's (generic example of the anti-thesis to your proposals). So you're 'economic' argument is highly flawed. Perhaps you could say 'we are greedier' but that wouldnt help such an issue.


Society frowns upon young marriages. What would you think if you were to see a couple, perhaps with a baby, and they were only in their mid-teens? Wouldn't you question that? Perhaps wonder why they would do this at such a young age? Society is built this way so people would "hopefully" (I use this sentence lightly) see that there are wrongs.

Since when does society count in imposing moral decisions? They can't even make up there mind on what is right and wrong. Not exactly a factor you want to use in proving your point...


Kids aren't mature at 14 years old (I know there are the extremely rare exceptions, but bear with me). They cling to their parents, they aren't completely knowledgeable of the real world, and they will hurt themselves in the long run. There is very little wisdom in mid-teens, and that lack of wisdom will not help when they need to make real-life decisions.

This is to do with nurture, not nature, and is a solid critique of how we bring up our kids to remain kids for way too long. Instead of addressing the symptom, would it not be wiser to simply bring our kids up on a more biblical foundation of becoming men when God deems them to, and women when God deems them to?


Here's where we get Biblical: "Honor thy mother and father." The last time a mother or father wanted there 14 year old child to marry is...well...an old thought. There are no parents that I know of that will let their children marry at such a young age. They know this because they have MUCH more experience and wisdom than their children. They also know, or at least predict, what sort of stress and troubles their children will go through. I highly doubt that if a 14 year old goes to his/her parents and say that he's in love that they would believe him/her. They do not know what true love is, and they won't until they are married; at least they will have a somewhat better idea when they have more experience when they are older.

Appealing to experience only works if the experience has something to do with proving your point. I don't feel the premise supports the conclusion. All you can conclude from this is that parents appeal to culture way too much instead of to the biblical mandate to make our kids into men and women who are disciples of the Lord. Love, in the bible, is a committment (not just a feeling) and if one brings ones children up to know this, then they will be better equiped towards marriage. There is no reason to assume that age will create knowledge of this, it is something that has to be learned through the discipleship of a parent figure. The divorce rate of Christians is similar to that of secularists... there is something we are doing wrong...


We are supposed to honor the government - no matter how bad it is. We are supposed to respect the laws of the land (which can also somewhat go under "society"). The government DOES have laws about marriage - including age. I believe there is one state that does allow marriage at 14, but with parental consent. And there are more states which allow 16 year olds to marry, but with parental consent. Then there are the rest which don't allow anyone under 18 to marry.


I don't disagree with this premise, but we are not talking about the government, we are talking about marriage and it's relationship to culture, with reference to maturity to marry.


Now, I understand what you mean by the "society dictates this" thinking. However, one must look at the world as well, and see if the children are able to pull it off.

If God is with them, who can be against them?


Again, I must stress that it is NOT Biblically stated as to when one should marry. However, it does say in 1 Corinthians chapter 7 whether or not one should marry. We must use the wisdom and knowledge that God gave us in order to figure stuff like this out.

The context of Corinthians is with a church in strife and tackling whether it is wise to marry during such upheaval. God gave us an indication about marriage in creation: Puberty and sex drive on top of God's desire for us 'not to be alone' reveals that we are made to marry (except for a select few). So one can draw upon our ontology and subsequent puberty to ascertain that when one is completed, or going through this stage, of puberty that it is ok (biblically) to think of marriage.

PS. I am not advocating early marriage per se, but am simply challenging your basis for saying that society should dictate such a process. There is no basis for saying that our kids must be beyond teenage years to marry when the root of such an issue isnt marriage itself but the way in which we disciple our young to take on burdens they should be biblically doing much earlier. We need not cotton ball our kids but bring them up with a fear of God and desire for responsibility in Him.

Also, when talking of kids it is important to check your emotions (which can often be quite impassioned), step back and think through the situation rationally and faithfully.

God bless

apothanein kerdos
Mar 26th 2009, 04:18 AM
Maybe people should be allowed to marry younger? I hear Mary was in her early teens when she gave birth to Jesus. Or is there some underlying problem that make teens so desperate to have a bf/gf? Is there peer pressure involved at all? I'm referring to that teenage bracket here, exluding late teens and early 20 somethings.

It's in human history. Most humans were marrying each other by the time they were 14-16 (18-20 for males). Of course, consider a few things:

* Ancient people only lived to be between 45-60 (with a few exceptions here and there)

* The weddings were pre-arranged, mostly with a cousin

* The people were vastly more mature than youth are today

* Most "puppy love" in the modern era is infatuation with love itself or lust brought about by a shallow and sex-crazed culture

Considering that in the average American high school (I don't know about other places) it's not uncommon for a boy or girl to date 4-5 different people over the course of the year, I don't think such practices lay a good foundation for marriage before one has matured.

Psychologically, at least in the West, people are far less developed than they were 2,000 years ago, or even 200 years ago.

Here's a good experiment for you:

Look at your high school year book, specifically those in your class. Then look at one from the 1980's. Then from the 1950's. Then, if you can, from the 1930's. What you'll notice is that those in the older generations, especially in the 30's, look far more older at their age than those in the modern times. Oh, and in most cases, they're probably a year or two younger than the modern class you're comparing them to.

What generally happens is that, psychologically, when we act young and think young, we develop that way for whatever reason (not always the case, but most of the time). Hence why there are 14 year olds from the 1930's that look 20 because they were raised to be more mature. The modern Western generation isn't raised that way, so marriage is most often a horrible idea.

RedBird777
Mar 31st 2009, 02:57 AM
My own feelings on the matter arent the issue.But I think it brings up a logical point in that there may be something there that children of our age should not marry at such young ages. If you want to fully bring emotion out of our thinking to think of the children, then you have to think about their emotions, maturity, and what is right for them.




So.... why are you applying a mandatory age?I am not applying a mandatory age - I am only arguing that it is a poor idea to marry young.




We are more prosperous (higher standard of living per capita) than we were in the 50's (generic example of the anti-thesis to your proposals). So you're 'economic' argument is highly flawed. Perhaps you could say 'we are greedier' but that wouldnt help such an issue.How are we more prosperous than in the 50's? Support your issue.
Also, even if we were, we have to look at how we are. The more technological advances and education that people have endured to make America a better place have helped us move along.




Since when does society count in imposing moral decisions? They can't even make up there mind on what is right and wrong. Not exactly a factor you want to use in proving your point...There are "moral standards" in society, whether you want to believe it or not. They may not necessarily be Biblical, but there is a somewhat standard. Just because we see a MUCH more liberal view through the media does not mean that the average joe doesn't have his morals.




This is to do with nurture, not nature, and is a solid critique of how we bring up our kids to remain kids for way too long. Instead of addressing the symptom, would it not be wiser to simply bring our kids up on a more biblical foundation of becoming men when God deems them to, and women when God deems them to?But we MUST look at the nature of children! We should nurture them, and help them mature their nature. In order to show children what God wants, we need to use use the "symptom" as an illustration or example. God will deem each individual as a man/woman when He sees fit, but when is that? Do we even have a clear undertanding of that? That's what I am trying to point out - we truly don't know. However, we can have a good idea when we look at the Bible and the world around us.




Appealing to experience only works if the experience has something to do with proving your point. I don't feel the premise supports the conclusion. All you can conclude from this is that parents appeal to culture way too much instead of to the biblical mandate to make our kids into men and women who are disciples of the Lord. Love, in the bible, is a committment (not just a feeling) and if one brings ones children up to know this, then they will be better equiped towards marriage. There is no reason to assume that age will create knowledge of this, it is something that has to be learned through the discipleship of a parent figure. The divorce rate of Christians is similar to that of secularists... there is something we are doing wrong...I think my premises are pretty good at showing that the wisdom of the mother and the father of a child are essential to the child's growth - and that includes teaching the child LOVE.
Now with love being a commitment, and not just an emotion, is quite true. And younger children do NOT have that commitment. They do not have the discipline and commitment to start a family at such a young age. A good mother and father will see this. Parents know their childrens' weaknesses and strengths - including these characteristics which I have mentioned.
The divorce rate for "christians" maybe about the same - but what does that show you? A lot of people that claim to be Christian are NOT. I'm not saying that a Christian doesn't make mistakes, but a true Christian will do his/her very best at the loving commitment to their spouse.




I don't disagree with this premise, but we are not talking about the government, we are talking about marriage and it's relationship to culture, with reference to maturity to marry.
Government has a HUGE impact on culture. The government also set up laws that we are supposed to follow. It is just more evidence pointing to my true conclusion - marrying young is not a good idea.



If God is with them, who can be against them?
True - no one can be against them. You didn't get my point that children in this day and age are NOT able to marry and support a family at a young age. You can see it in society. You can even look in your church - are the children there actually mature enough to raise a family? Do they truly have that capability?


The context of Corinthians is with a church in strife and tackling whether it is wise to marry during such upheaval. God gave us an indication about marriage in creation: Puberty and sex drive on top of God's desire for us 'not to be alone' reveals that we are made to marry (except for a select few). So one can draw upon our ontology and subsequent puberty to ascertain that when one is completed, or going through this stage, of puberty that it is ok (biblically) to think of marriage.So do you not think that 1Corinthians is not viable today? Perhaps God's Words do not account for today, only at a certain time period?


PS. I am not advocating early marriage per se, but am simply challenging your basis for saying that society should dictate such a process. There is no basis for saying that our kids must be beyond teenage years to marry when the root of such an issue isnt marriage itself but the way in which we disciple our young to take on burdens they should be biblically doing much earlier. We need not cotton ball our kids but bring them up with a fear of God and desire for responsibility in Him.I agree with you - we do need to raise our children to honor and fear God. When children are being raised, is it wise to not teach them about the world? We may be God's children, and we may be in His Light, but we are still living in this world. We are not part of it, but we live here, and we should abide by its rules - assuming they do not go against God's rules. God's rues are above all, but when there are no rules for certain things, i.e. when is marriage a good idea, then we have to make rules. How do we make these rules? We have to look around us and use our brains which God gave us to figure these things out.


Also, when talking of kids it is important to check your emotions (which can often be quite impassioned), step back and think through the situation rationally and faithfully.God gave me emotions for a reason. I am not to be controlled by these emotions, but rather I control them. God wants us to love others, and I want to love the children of the world by doing what is right for them. In this case, I think it is right for the children to WAIT for marriage.

Revinius
Mar 31st 2009, 03:46 AM
But I think it brings up a logical point in that there may be something there that children of our age should not marry at such young ages. If you want to fully bring emotion out of our thinking to think of the children, then you have to think about their emotions, maturity, and what is right for them.

Since when does emotion enter the fray of gauging the utility of an action/idea?


I am not applying a mandatory age - I am only arguing that it is a poor idea to marry young.

Sure you are, you are saying people shouldnt be married under X age.


How are we more prosperous than in the 50's? Support your issue.
Also, even if we were, we have to look at how we are. The more technological advances and education that people have endured to make America a better place have helped us move along.

When you look at the income data over the last 50-60 years you see an escallation in the standard of living per capita in the western world. Simply because we are unhappy/unsatisfied in that existance doesnt beget that we all have less money. Perhaps it instead points out that we think we 'need' more money before we get to X stage when we want to have kids. In reality, God is the provider and if one can provide basic necessities to ones family then marriage isnt out of the question.


There are "moral standards" in society, whether you want to believe it or not. They may not necessarily be Biblical, but there is a somewhat standard. Just because we see a MUCH more liberal view through the media does not mean that the average joe doesn't have his morals.

Yes, but those moral standards neither have a secure basis nor have any place in a discussion on the biblical issue of marriage.


But we MUST look at the nature of children! We should nurture them, and help them mature their nature. In order to show children what God wants, we need to use use the "symptom" as an illustration or example. God will deem each individual as a man/woman when He sees fit, but when is that? Do we even have a clear undertanding of that? That's what I am trying to point out - we truly don't know. However, we can have a good idea when we look at the Bible and the world around us.

God appoints people as parents to magnify His glory. He tasks us with brining them up in a godly manner to become men and women after His own heart. We do have a clear understanding of when one becomes a man/woman via how God made us. Puberty is the natural mark of what it is to 'come of age' or 'grow up from boyhood/womanhood' and, in the absence of other teachings, is a good place (as a parent) to make men/women of our kids.

The culture around us is a bad gauge for this, as their evil blinds them to what is good. When we stray from the bible, especially on important matters like our kids, then we are opening ourselves up to the ungodly in what is essentially a very fragile stage in life. If we give our kids to Caesar should we be surprised when they come back Romans?


I think my premises are pretty good at showing that the wisdom of the mother and the father of a child are essential to the child's growth - and that includes teaching the child LOVE.
Now with love being a commitment, and not just an emotion, is quite true. And younger children do NOT have that commitment. They do not have the discipline and commitment to start a family at such a young age. A good mother and father will see this. Parents know their childrens' weaknesses and strengths - including these characteristics which I have mentioned.
The divorce rate for "christians" maybe about the same - but what does that show you? A lot of people that claim to be Christian are NOT. I'm not saying that a Christian doesn't make mistakes, but a true Christian will do his/her very best at the loving commitment to their spouse.


And i am saying that such presumptions are a flaw in your premises. As i aforementioned, you are taking what is a symptom (the immaturity of our young as a result of culture) and trying to use that as a justification for not addressing the core issue: That we are not bringing our kids up to be responsible when God would have them being as such.


Government has a HUGE impact on culture. The government also set up laws that we are supposed to follow. It is just more evidence pointing to my true conclusion - marrying young is not a good idea.

Why should i care about our pagan governments on this issue?


True - no one can be against them. You didn't get my point that children in this day and age are NOT able to marry and support a family at a young age. You can see it in society. You can even look in your church - are the children there actually mature enough to raise a family? Do they truly have that capability?

I thought it interesting, looking at old pictures, how much older those kids look even though are in reality much younger than those in my youth group are. Culture has endeavoured to cotton ball our kids (i call it over-mothering) thereby encouraging them to be young (and thus irresponsible) for longer in life. Culture is not the arbiter of how i will bring my kids up, so this is thus a false premise.


So do you not think that 1Corinthians is not viable today? Perhaps God's Words do not account for today, only at a certain time period?

Shall i burn your straw man? Or ignore it? - Your language is getting quite emotive and i hope you are not getting unneccesarily worked up here. If you are then i beg that we stop rather than risk sinning against one another.

There was nothing in my remark to indicate that i didnt think 1 Corinthians the inerrant Word of God. I try and read everything literally in context and i do so with all of God's Word. When Paul draws on a hermeneutic for all peoples then i am quick to look at it and exegete it. But if he makes a comment that seemingly contradicts with other scripture, i am quick to look at what is the underlying context of what he is saying (as well as that of the other scripture). God made marriage good, if i was to simply take one verse from 1 Corinthians and apply it without context then the Christian church would now be extinct (from no marriages). Understand where i am coming from?


I agree with you - we do need to raise our children to honor and fear God. When children are being raised, is it wise to not teach them about the world? We may be God's children, and we may be in His Light, but we are still living in this world. We are not part of it, but we live here, and we should abide by its rules - assuming they do not go against God's rules. God's rues are above all, but when there are no rules for certain things, i.e. when is marriage a good idea, then we have to make rules. How do we make these rules? We have to look around us and use our brains which God gave us to figure these things out.

Sure, but don't go to Caesar to talk about marriage/child rearing advice. If one reads the bible all the way through with ones kids, explaining and teaching, there is more documented evil than in a documentary about genocide. The world is evil, and the bible is clear on that; the impression i am getting from your above point is you don't think the bible teaches them adequately about the perils of the world?



God gave me emotions for a reason. I am not to be controlled by these emotions, but rather I control them. God wants us to love others, and I want to love the children of the world by doing what is right for them. In this case, I think it is right for the children to WAIT for marriage.

I still dont see where the conclusion comes from... sorry :(

The premises you provide arent strong enough to sway me on that yet, although your passion for the conclusion moves me.

On the topic of emotions: How do you know you control them? What is to be the measuring stick by which you gauge this? I mean, one could easily be led by ones emotions thinking, at the time, they are completely rational.

Athanasius
Mar 31st 2009, 04:37 AM
It's in human history. Most humans were marrying each other by the time they were 14-16 (18-20 for males). Of course, consider a few things:

* Ancient people only lived to be between 45-60 (with a few exceptions here and there)

* The weddings were pre-arranged, mostly with a cousin

* The people were vastly more mature than youth are today

* Most "puppy love" in the modern era is infatuation with love itself or lust brought about by a shallow and sex-crazed culture

Considering that in the average American high school (I don't know about other places) it's not uncommon for a boy or girl to date 4-5 different people over the course of the year, I don't think such practices lay a good foundation for marriage before one has matured.

Psychologically, at least in the West, people are far less developed than they were 2,000 years ago, or even 200 years ago.

Here's a good experiment for you:

Look at your high school year book, specifically those in your class. Then look at one from the 1980's. Then from the 1950's. Then, if you can, from the 1930's. What you'll notice is that those in the older generations, especially in the 30's, look far more older at their age than those in the modern times. Oh, and in most cases, they're probably a year or two younger than the modern class you're comparing them to.

What generally happens is that, psychologically, when we act young and think young, we develop that way for whatever reason (not always the case, but most of the time). Hence why there are 14 year olds from the 1930's that look 20 because they were raised to be more mature. The modern Western generation isn't raised that way, so marriage is most often a horrible idea.

So, here is the voice of reason - it applies to your conversation, Redbird and Revinius. It goes along with and perhaps states more succinctly what Redbird had stated in post 25 of this thread. Now with that said...

...This is getting a little out of control, Revinius. I'm going to have to side with Redbird here, you seem to be taking his comments, making a straw man out of them and burning that straw man. I don't want to write a huge post on this though I'll simply say that the comment, "The Bible does not say when one should marry. I have never seen a verse that says that someone has to marry at a certain age." should not receive the answer, "So.... why are you applying a mandatory age?" When in any previous replies no such thing was said.

Redbird had very valid points. Economically we're failing, never mind that most can't work until they are 16. Socially we don't approach marriage with the proper attitude, even within Christianity. This goes hand in hand with maturity (or lack there-of), going back to what Apothanein Kerdos said. Parents are by and large no longer taking on the role they used to and their children as a result are being raised with the wrong values (sexuality sacred? Don't make me laugh!). Finally, we are to follow the laws of the government where they do not conflict with the precepts of scripture.

We can talk about physical maturity and puberty being the mark of 'transitioning to manhood / femalehood?' However this line of reasoning completely ignores the pyschological and emotional state of the individual in question which is, I believe, very far behind in todays generation. Now I say that as somebody who is beyond my peers (by a great many years) in these areas. Would I compare with someone from sixty years ago? I think absolutely not. I'm simply saying I understand the argument being used and it's faulty.

Where I will agree with Revinius is really on a matter not so significant when compared to the weight of the rest of the argument. That is that what society thinks of 'young marriage' is really irrelevant.

I think the major point Redbird is trying to make is that children these days are too immature to marry, I have to agree with him on that. These 'accusations' which imply certain people are losing their emotional composure are unnecessary. Really, they are.

Revinius
Mar 31st 2009, 05:12 AM
I agree, they are too immature to marry. The point i was attempting to make, which seems to be ignored constantly is: Let's not bandy around with the symptom when the issue is how we bring up kids.

The straw man i see is that some feel i advocate young marriage when in reality what i am attempting to do is the 'socrates thing' and simply question the 'people shouldnt marry till X stage of life' assertion. I am not making a particularly strong argument because my point is not to make one in regards to marital ages but to question RedBird's reasons for his. The side argument i am really trying to present lies in my belief as to the need to bring kids up to be responsible men/women and not in a perpetual state of 'Peter Pan' - which is the status quo of society.

treeinheaven
Mar 31st 2009, 11:52 AM
I disagree.There is something mentioned in the bible in the old testament about priests marrying women of "marriageable age".
From a conversation with a christian brother years ago he told me "marriageable age" referred to a young age group.How young?I honestly believe the author of this thread was right in the age of Mary being young.
Remember these were priests-Godly men not the wicked and they were substantially older than the women too.It's a tricky topic.

The bible says nothing to discourage young people marrying or to imply it is sin.It actually seems to say the opposite.Emotions are almost always stronger in youth.God gave "peter pan" feelings to the young, it's part of being young.Proverbs says rejoice in the wife of your youth.Responsibility-of course.That goes without saying.I believe God meant youth to be an anchor and stimulator for marriage before aging callouses the senses. What a sorry and miserable thing for youth to slip away because of some false idea of piety.

Revinius
Mar 31st 2009, 01:46 PM
I disagree.There is something mentioned in the bible in the old testament about priests marrying women of "marriageable age".
From a conversation with a christian brother years ago he told me "marriageable age" referred to a young age group.How young?I honestly believe the author of this thread was right in the age of Mary being young.
Remember these were priests-Godly men not the wicked and they were substantially older than the women too.It's a tricky topic.

The bible says nothing to discourage young people marrying or to imply it is sin.It actually seems to say the opposite.Emotions are almost always stronger in youth.God gave "peter pan" feelings to the young, it's part of being young.Proverbs says rejoice in the wife of your youth.Responsibility-of course.That goes without saying.I believe God meant youth to be an anchor and stimulator for marriage before aging callouses the senses. What a sorry and miserable thing for youth to slip away because of some false idea of piety.

Just to clarify, i was referring to 'Peter Pan Syndrome' which is where someone well into adulthood still acts like an irresponsible kid (eg. Michael Jackson).

Athanasius
Mar 31st 2009, 04:24 PM
I agree, they are too immature to marry. The point i was attempting to make, which seems to be ignored constantly is: Let's not bandy around with the symptom when the issue is how we bring up kids.

The straw man i see is that some feel i advocate young marriage when in reality what i am attempting to do is the 'socrates thing' and simply question the 'people shouldnt marry till X stage of life' assertion. I am not making a particularly strong argument because my point is not to make one in regards to marital ages but to question RedBird's reasons for his. The side argument i am really trying to present lies in my belief as to the need to bring kids up to be responsible men/women and not in a perpetual state of 'Peter Pan' - which is the status quo of society.

No one is ignoring the issue for the symptom, we've all agreed that the immaturity we're seeing in today's (and future) young people is the result of many different variables (including how our youth are raised), most of which were initially named by Redbird. Now in addition to this it was also pointed out (and I agree with this) that the conditions surrounding marriage are very different today than they were even fifty years ago. If by some miracle we happened upon two youth of 14 who were as mature as 14-year-olds were thousands of years ago they would still have trouble trying to get married. The big reason for this is laws.

Your (Revinius) saying we need to change the way we bring up our children. He (Redbird) is saying, "here are the areas of difficulty, lets start there" and you (Revinius) are returning to your 'Socrates thing' and accusing Redbird of creating excuses when he's really just outlined the issues.


I disagree.There is something mentioned in the bible in the old testament about priests marrying women of "marriageable age".
From a conversation with a christian brother years ago he told me "marriageable age" referred to a young age group.How young?I honestly believe the author of this thread was right in the age of Mary being young.
Remember these were priests-Godly men not the wicked and they were substantially older than the women too.It's a tricky topic.

Are you able to find that verse so we can discuss it?

apothanein kerdos
Mar 31st 2009, 05:12 PM
Two more things:

1) There isn't some magical biological age that says, "Mazel tov, you can marry now!" There are 35 year olds who are too immature to get married. It deals with maturity, economic capability, spiritual maturity, and everything I listed above. In most modernized societies, a 15 or 16 year old simply isn't going to be any of those.

2) We're Christians, called to obey the government. If the government puts an age on it, then obey it.

RedBird777
Mar 31st 2009, 08:51 PM
I agree, they are too immature to marry. The point i was attempting to make, which seems to be ignored constantly is: Let's not bandy around with the symptom when the issue is how we bring up kids.

The straw man i see is that some feel i advocate young marriage when in reality what i am attempting to do is the 'socrates thing' and simply question the 'people shouldnt marry till X stage of life' assertion. I am not making a particularly strong argument because my point is not to make one in regards to marital ages but to question RedBird's reasons for his. The side argument i am really trying to present lies in my belief as to the need to bring kids up to be responsible men/women and not in a perpetual state of 'Peter Pan' - which is the status quo of society.I think one thing that we are both going to have to agree to disagree with is to actually determine how to raise children. I do not have kids of my own - which is where my validity falls. I do, however, plan on raising a family in my future.
What you mean by "Socrates thing" is the Socratean Method (apothanein kerdos, please correct me on that since you are a philosopher yourself). That means to ask questions to get closer to the truth. All I meant to do was to bring up the points as to why children should not marry at a young age. It is an opinion. I do not mean to offend anyone, and if I did offend you, I apologize.


I disagree.There is something mentioned in the bible in the old testament about priests marrying women of "marriageable age".
From a conversation with a christian brother years ago he told me "marriageable age" referred to a young age group.How young?I honestly believe the author of this thread was right in the age of Mary being young.
Remember these were priests-Godly men not the wicked and they were substantially older than the women too.It's a tricky topic.

The bible says nothing to discourage young people marrying or to imply it is sin.It actually seems to say the opposite.Emotions are almost always stronger in youth.God gave "peter pan" feelings to the young, it's part of being young.Proverbs says rejoice in the wife of your youth.Responsibility-of course.That goes without saying.I believe God meant youth to be an anchor and stimulator for marriage before aging callouses the senses. What a sorry and miserable thing for youth to slip away because of some false idea of piety.I would LOVE to see this verse. If I truly am wrong, I would definitely like to know so I may change myself and gain the wisdom I need.
The only problem I have is that it is a priest who is saying this...remember, the "Godly" men sometimes weren't (which is shown throughout the OT). I would still like to view this verse for myself.


Two more things:

1) There isn't some magical biological age that says, "Mazel tov, you can marry now!" There are 35 year olds who are too immature to get married. It deals with maturity, economic capability, spiritual maturity, and everything I listed above. In most modernized societies, a 15 or 16 year old simply isn't going to be any of those.

2) We're Christians, called to obey the government. If the government puts an age on it, then obey it.1) I completely agree with you. There should be a certain maturity that people should maintain for marriage. However, I do believe that in marriage (no, I'm not married, so this is speculation) the maturity can come out.
2) Yes - we should obey the government and its laws - as long as it doesn't interfere with the greater laws of my LORD and Savior.

---

Now with all that aside, I must say that I will have to pray and meditate on this to get a clearer picture. As far as I know, Revinius can be right, and I can be wrong; or we could both be completely off.
And I would truly love to see this verse that treeinheaven is talking about. If I am wrong, I want to be corrected, as I hope everyone in here also does.