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reformedct
Dec 18th 2008, 10:44 PM
Was Noah righteous because of how he lived, or because God declared him righteous?
(forgive my spelling lol)

Increasing Corruption on Earth

6:1 When man began to multiply on the face of the land and daughters were born to them, 2 the sons of God saw that the daughters of man were attractive. And they took as their wives any they chose. 3 Then the Lord said, “My Spirit shall not abide in [1] (http://www.gnpcb.org/esv/search/?q=Genesis+6#f1) man forever, for he is flesh: his days shall be 120 years.” 4 The Nephilim [2] (http://www.gnpcb.org/esv/search/?q=Genesis+6#f2) were on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of man and they bore children to them. These were the mighty men who were of old, the men of renown.
5 The Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intention of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. 6 And the Lord was sorry that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him to his heart. 7 So the Lord said, “I will blot out man whom I have created from the face of the land, man and animals and creeping things and birds of the heavens, for I am sorry that I have made them.” 8 But Noah found favor in the eyes of the Lord.
Noah and the Flood

9 These are the generations of Noah. Noah was a righteous man, blameless in his generation. Noah walked with God.



When it says Noah found favor, does that mean he was a good man and God said well hey look at that righteous man down there

Or does it mean Noah found favor in the sense that God chose to give him favor?

Wasn't Noah included in the previous verses in the evil condition of mankind? I think later on it goes on to say that Noah was passed out drunk in his tent butt naked lol is that a righteous man?

:hmm:

Friend of I AM
Dec 18th 2008, 10:58 PM
Was Noah righteous because of how he lived, or because God declared him righteous?
(forgive my spelling lol)

Increasing Corruption on Earth

6:1 When man began to multiply on the face of the land and daughters were born to them, 2 the sons of God saw that the daughters of man were attractive. And they took as their wives any they chose. 3 Then the Lord said, “My Spirit shall not abide in [1] (http://www.gnpcb.org/esv/search/?q=Genesis+6#f1) man forever, for he is flesh: his days shall be 120 years.” 4 The Nephilim [2] (http://www.gnpcb.org/esv/search/?q=Genesis+6#f2) were on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of man and they bore children to them. These were the mighty men who were of old, the men of renown.
5 The Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intention of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. 6 And the Lord was sorry that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him to his heart. 7 So the Lord said, “I will blot out man whom I have created from the face of the land, man and animals and creeping things and birds of the heavens, for I am sorry that I have made them.” 8 But Noah found favor in the eyes of the Lord.
Noah and the Flood

9 These are the generations of Noah. Noah was a righteous man, blameless in his generation. Noah walked with God.



When it says Noah found favor, does that mean he was a good man and God said well hey look at that righteous man down there

Or does it mean Noah found favor in the sense that God chose to give him favor?

Wasn't Noah included in the previous verses in the evil condition of mankind? I think later on it goes on to say that Noah was passed out drunk in his tent butt naked lol is that a righteous man?

:hmm:

I think it means both. God decided to show favor to Noah, in order to save mankind during the time and ordained him to be alive. Likewise..Noah was righteous in God's eyes as well, based on his actions. He decided to not go with the flow of what everyone else was doing, and didn't turn from God when the going got tough..and from the reading of scripture those times during the flood were very tough. I'm sure we can't even begin to imagine what Noah had to go through with Nephilim running rampant, the building of the ark..and the additional responsability of having to preach to the people for 100's of years..all the while being mocked and ridiculed in the process.

Just_Another_Guy
Dec 19th 2008, 12:42 AM
I think Noah was deemed a righteous man in his day, based on what he did -- specifically his obedience and faithfulness to God. I don't necessarily think that God forced Noah to be righteous, which is why I think one really needs to be careful in using the term predestined with him. I think of the best application to give regarding God's choosing of Noah would be that of Psalm 53:2.

reformedct
Dec 19th 2008, 02:42 AM
I think Noah was deemed a righteous man in his day, based on what he did -- specifically his obedience and faithfulness to God. I don't necessarily think that God forced Noah to be righteous, which is why I think one really needs to be careful in using the term predestined with him. I think of the best application to give regarding God's choosing of Noah would be that of Psalm 53:2.


so..
are you saying,
First Noah was good
then God responded?

im not here to force you to believe what i do but i don't see why Noah isn't counted among the evildoers in the previous verses?

the story seems to play like this:

man was evil and jacked lol (including noah?)

Noah found favor. (i believe in the original language the word is the same word as "grace" which makes sense, because one aspect of grace is that it is the giving of something that is not deserved)

Then it says Noah was righteouss and blameless in his generation(even though he got drunk and naked in a tent, so if he was blamless, it must be talking about a righteousness other than his own.) Once again these are just my views


Notice that first Noah found favor (or grace)

THEN he was said to be righteouss.

this seems to fall in line with what Paul says: By grace you have been saved, not of yourselves, lest any man should boast.

i just feel that if God responded to Noah's obedience, Noah could say:
"yes, i found favor because i did good things"

there would be room for boasting

this is why i believe God chose Noah because it was His will not because Noah was literally blameless in and of himself. I mean was Noah really in and of himself blameless? wouldn't that basically be synonmous with sinless? yet after God killed all mankind, Noah is passed out naked?

HisLeast
Dec 19th 2008, 02:53 AM
man was evil and jacked lol (including noah?)
I don't believe the text describes Noah as being as fell as the rest of mankind.


Noah found favor. (i believe in the original language the word is the same word as "grace" which makes sense, because one aspect of grace is that it is the giving of something that is not deserved)
I guess I'm suspicious. If it meant "grace" why didn't the translators say "grace". Even if it is grace, did absolutely nothing separate Noah from other people of the time and God just pulled him out at random? If so, what responsibility does that give us to live righteous lives?


Then it says Noah was righteouss and blameless in his generation(even though he got drunk and naked in a tent, so if he was blamless, it must be talking about a righteousness other than his own.) Once again these are just my views
One difference between Judaism and Christianity is that the Jews can consider someone righteous even though they've messed up (ie: David, Moses, Noah, Samson, etc). I believe the text is saying that overall, Noah was as righteous as it got in that time, yet he was still human and fell short.


Notice that first Noah found favor (or grace)
THEN he was said to be righteouss.
I believe it reads that way simply because there's no way to describe two things simultaneously in a sentence. I do not believe its stating that there was a difference between finding favor and being righteous. They went hand in hand, not chronologically.


i just feel that if God responded to Noah's obedience, Noah could say:
"yes, i found favor because i did good things"

there would be room for boasting
If one was being obedient, wouldn't that preclude one from boasting?

[/quote]this is why i believe God chose Noah because it was His will not because Noah was literally blameless in and of himself. I mean was Noah really in and of himself blameless? wouldn't that basically be synonmous with sinless? yet after God killed all mankind, Noah is passed out naked?[/quote]
I believe its both. I believe it was God's will AND that Noah mastered himself enough to be righteous in God's eyes. While its true Noah suffered a bout of drunkenness, he certainly paid the consequences for it, and it happened after God had deemed him righteous and set him to work on the Ark AND after having survived an extinction level event.

reformedct
Dec 19th 2008, 03:02 AM
I don't believe the text describes Noah as being as fell as the rest of mankind.


I guess I'm suspicious. If it meant "grace" why didn't the translators say "grace". Even if it is grace, did absolutely nothing separate Noah from other people of the time and God just pulled him out at random? If so, what responsibility does that give us to live righteous lives?


One difference between Judaism and Christianity is that the Jews can consider someone righteous even though they've messed up (ie: David, Moses, Noah, Samson, etc). I believe the text is saying that overall, Noah was as righteous as it got in that time, yet he was still human and fell short.


I believe it reads that way simply because there's no way to describe two things simultaneously in a sentence. I do not believe its stating that there was a difference between finding favor and being righteous. They went hand in hand, not chronologically.


If one was being obedient, wouldn't that preclude one from boasting?

this is why i believe God chose Noah because it was His will not because Noah was literally blameless in and of himself. I mean was Noah really in and of himself blameless? wouldn't that basically be synonmous with sinless? yet after God killed all mankind, Noah is passed out naked?[/quote]
I believe its both. I believe it was God's will AND that Noah mastered himself enough to be righteous in God's eyes. While its true Noah suffered a bout of drunkenness, he certainly paid the consequences for it, and it happened after God had deemed him righteous and set him to work on the Ark AND after having survived an extinction level event.[/quote]

this is a good argument and makes sense
i still see it my way but man i wish we could go back in time and actually watch all o these events played out! oh man could you imagine seeing or watching the creation of the first human being how crazy would that be.

I wish God had videotaped all of the old and new testament so we could watch hahahah

peace

RoadWarrior
Dec 19th 2008, 03:26 AM
The New Testament often sheds light on difficulties in the Old Testament.

Heb 11:6-7
6 But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.
7 By faith Noah, being divinely warned of things not yet seen, moved with godly fear, prepared an ark for the saving of his household, by which he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness which is according to faith.
NKJV

Amos_with_goats
Dec 19th 2008, 03:37 AM
Noah choose to do as he was told. He was saved because of his faith. He was righteous because he was obedient.

Romans 6:16 (King James Version)

Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

RogerW
Dec 19th 2008, 04:09 AM
Was Noah righteous because of how he lived, or because God declared him righteous?
(forgive my spelling lol)

Increasing Corruption on Earth

6:1 When man began to multiply on the face of the land and daughters were born to them, 2 the sons of God saw that the daughters of man were attractive. And they took as their wives any they chose. 3 Then the Lord said, “My Spirit shall not abide in [1] (http://www.gnpcb.org/esv/search/?q=Genesis+6#f1) man forever, for he is flesh: his days shall be 120 years.” 4 The Nephilim [2] (http://www.gnpcb.org/esv/search/?q=Genesis+6#f2) were on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of man and they bore children to them. These were the mighty men who were of old, the men of renown.
5 The Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intention of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. 6 And the Lord was sorry that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him to his heart. 7 So the Lord said, “I will blot out man whom I have created from the face of the land, man and animals and creeping things and birds of the heavens, for I am sorry that I have made them.” 8 But Noah found favor in the eyes of the Lord.
Noah and the Flood

9 These are the generations of Noah. Noah was a righteous man, blameless in his generation. Noah walked with God.



When it says Noah found favor, does that mean he was a good man and God said well hey look at that righteous man down there

Or does it mean Noah found favor in the sense that God chose to give him favor?

Wasn't Noah included in the previous verses in the evil condition of mankind? I think later on it goes on to say that Noah was passed out drunk in his tent butt naked lol is that a righteous man?

:hmm:

Greetings Reformed,

If Noah was righteous because of how he lived, he would have somewhat to boast of. He could claim that he found grace in the eyes of the LORD because he was already just and perfect. If that were the case then the text should read, "God saw that the wickedness of man, except for Noah was great in the earth."

To be just means that Noah was a lawful or righteous man, and that he was perfect (walked in integrity) in his generations (his life time). How was Noah just and perfect since God has declared that every man was wicked? Noah is just and perfect because God's grace was upon him. Noah did not possess grace because he was just and perfect, but he found grace. In other words faith came forth from the grace God showed him. Noah, by grace received faith that was not his own but the gift of God's grace. This is how Noah is able, through faith to build the ark for the next 120 years.

Ge 6:8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.
Ge 6:9 These are the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God.

Ps 18:32 It is God that girdeth me with strength, and maketh my way perfect.

Many Blessings,
RW

Thaddaeus
Dec 19th 2008, 04:29 AM
[quote=reformedct;1911481]Was Noah righteous because of how he lived, or because God declared him righteous?
(forgive my spelling lol)

Let's look at another translation here KJb

Ge 6:9These are the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God.It says that Noah was a just man perfect in his generations, he was just by his ways , if it had been God made him just, then it would have read God made him just in his ways, but perjust in his generation not perfect in his ways, but he would had to rely on God and His strength as we do to be just. we tend to look at things wrong sometime we have preach that everything have is God's But in acts it says Ac 5:3But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?Ac 5:4Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.Ac 5:5And Ananias hearing these words fell down, and gave up the ghost: and great fear came on all them that heard these things.


While God gives us something He gives it to us. while Ananias, had something God's inspired Word said that while He had it it was Ananias's not God's, it was in ananias's power to do with it what he wanted to. so if the Bible said that Noah was just, then Noah we shouldn't try to figure out our question but to learn that if one man was a just man in God's eyes, then we to could be just

RoadWarrior
Dec 19th 2008, 04:41 AM
The New Testament often sheds light on difficulties in the Old Testament.

Heb 11:6-7
6 But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.
7 By faith Noah, being divinely warned of things not yet seen, moved with godly fear, prepared an ark for the saving of his household, by which he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness which is according to faith.
NKJV

You guys seem to be a bit stuck in the OT.

Hebrews indicates that Noah had faith in God, that he was diligent in seeking God, that he feared God, and that when God spoke, he obeyed God.

Can we examine ourselves and see whether we have those characteristics in ourselves?

Do you seek to know whether or not God will see you as righteous? Here are the qualifications, as measured by Noah.

Faith
seeking
fearing
obeying

What do you think?

HisLeast
Dec 19th 2008, 02:32 PM
If Noah was righteous because of how he lived, he would have somewhat to boast of. He could claim that he found grace in the eyes of the LORD because he was already just and perfect. If that were the case then the text should read, "God saw that the wickedness of man, except for Noah was great in the earth."
But if Noah wasn't righteous because he of how he lived, why would any of us bother being righteous. We could simply live unrighteously and blame God for not "choosing" us for righteousness.

mikebr
Dec 19th 2008, 02:36 PM
But if Noah wasn't righteous because he of how he lived, why would any of us bother being righteous. We could simply live unrighteously and blame God for not "choosing" us for righteousness.

What God declares righteous is righteous regardless of what it does. You speak of unrighteous living as if it were beneficial. It will kill you, why would anyone want to live unrighteously.

HisLeast
Dec 19th 2008, 03:00 PM
What God declares righteous is righteous regardless of what it does. You speak of unrighteous living as if it were beneficial. It will kill you, why would anyone want to live unrighteously.

I do?
(15 characters)

Just_Another_Guy
Dec 19th 2008, 03:10 PM
so..
are you saying,
First Noah was good
then God responded?


I don't know which came first. It's hard to say..I think Noah did have a choice not to be obedient to God though, why else would have God lamented and considered possibly destroying the earth?

As far as God declaring Noah as blameless..it could have been God just assessing the situation...and stating, this guys been through a lot and maintained faithfulness to me..despite the fact that he's made mistakes..I'm not going to count anything against him...and use him as a vessel of mercy for mankind.

Now we see that God's mercy though doesn't preclude his judgement in this situation. Both are utilized regarding assisting with mankinds salvation.

mikebr
Dec 19th 2008, 03:18 PM
But if Noah wasn't righteous because he of how he lived, why would any of us bother being righteous. We could simply live unrighteously and blame God for not "choosing" us for righteousness.

Yes you do, if you believe that righteousness is a character trait. If not then I apologize.

HisLeast
Dec 19th 2008, 03:21 PM
Yes you do, if you believe that righteousness is a character trait. If not then I apologize.

Fine.
(15 characters)

RogerW
Dec 19th 2008, 04:28 PM
But if Noah wasn't righteous because he of how he lived, why would any of us bother being righteous. We could simply live unrighteously and blame God for not "choosing" us for righteousness.

Greetings HisLeast,

The point is that no man, born of Adam is righteous. There are none righteous, no, not one! None, including Noah. Every human since the fall of the first man, Adam, is born in bondage to a nature of sin. Even if God does not give us His grace, enabling us to be righteous, as He did Noah, every man is without excuse for "choosing" to remain unrighteous. No man can make himself righteous, and every man is born unrighteous. Who then can be saved?

Every man will continue in this fallen nature, in bondage to sin, death and Satan unless God intervenes, as He did with Noah, who found grace in the eyes of the LORD. Grace = God stooping down in kindness to bestow loving favor upon an inferior being. It is through this bestowing of grace upon him that Noah is made righteous, just and perfect in his generations. Noah would remain in unbelief, and unrighteous, like everyone else, except that he found grace in the eyes of the LORD. Nothing Noah did, all the work of the LORD.

Since every man does not find grace in the eyes of the LORD does that mean they can claim that God is unfair or blame God for their unrighteousness? NO WAY! Truth is that no man would be saved, unless God determines to save some men. He is the Potter and we the clay, and He has every right to extend mercy, grace and compassion to whosoever He will. Istead of complaining how unfair it is that God does not save every man, we ought to instead be praising God that in His great love and compassion He saved some men. Otherwise God would have no man to display His glory, for none are righteous, no, not one!

Many Blessings,
RW

Friend of I AM
Dec 19th 2008, 04:46 PM
Greetings HisLeast,

The point is that no man, born of Adam is righteous. There are none righteous, no, not one! None, including Noah. Every human since the fall of the first man, Adam, is born in bondage to a nature of sin. Even if God does not give us His grace, enabling us to be righteous, as He did Noah, every man is without excuse for "choosing" to remain unrighteous. No man can make himself righteous, and every man is born unrighteous. Who then can be saved?

Every man will continue in this fallen nature, in bondage to sin, death and Satan unless God intervenes, as He did with Noah, who found grace in the eyes of the LORD. Grace = God stooping down in kindness to bestow loving favor upon an inferior being. It is through this bestowing of grace upon him that Noah is made righteous, just and perfect in his generations. Noah would remain in unbelief, and unrighteous, like everyone else, except that he found grace in the eyes of the LORD. Nothing Noah did, all the work of the LORD.

Since every man does not find grace in the eyes of the LORD does that mean they can claim that God is unfair or blame God for their unrighteousness? NO WAY! Truth is that no man would be saved, unless God determines to save some men. He is the Potter and we the clay, and He has every right to extend mercy, grace and compassion to whosoever He will. Istead of complaining how unfair it is that God does not save every man, we ought to instead be praising God that in His great love and compassion He saved some men. Otherwise God would have no man to display His glory, for none are righteous, no, not one!

Many Blessings,
RW

Hey Roger,

The verses do say that Noah was a perfect man for his generation though. Of course God is superior to man as he can choose whomever he wants to bestow his grace and mercy upon.

Still I think it means that there was something different about this man that God had noticed, that he hadn't seen in other men during the time. Think of he Psalm 53:2 verse given by Just_Another_Guy. Or think of Enoch..Noah's grandfather. Both men walked with God throughout their lives, so they definitely had special relationships with him, perhaps a bit different than what we have now.

God bless in Christian Love,

Stephen

reformedct
Dec 19th 2008, 06:26 PM
I don't know which came first. It's hard to say..I think Noah did have a choice not to be obedient to God though, why else would have God lamented and considered possibly destroying the earth?

As far as God declaring Noah as blameless..it could have been God just assessing the situation...and stating, this guys been through a lot and maintained faithfulness to me..despite the fact that he's made mistakes..I'm not going to count anything against him...and use him as a vessel of mercy for mankind.

Now we see that God's mercy though doesn't preclude his judgement in this situation. Both are utilized regarding assisting with mankinds salvation.


although i am reformed, i agree that all humans have "choice"
what i do not agree with is that apart from an act of God man can "choose" God or to obey Him

although we have "choice"

don't you guys believe that God can setup our surroundings and circumstances to push our buttons to "choose" what He wants? For example Jonah in the fishs mouth. Jonah could have "chose" to die in there, but i believe God knew what would get Jonah to obey, so he placed Jonah in a position where he would "Choose" the will of God, but ultimately it was God pushing his buttons. So i believe God somehow revealed Himself to Noah in a way in which he knew Noah would respond accordingly by walking with Him and obeying

we know God cannot fail

so if God in eternity past says, i am going to choose Noah to survive the flood.

Could Noah ultimately disobey? wouldn't that mean God's plan failed?

RogerW
Dec 19th 2008, 08:18 PM
Hey Roger,

The verses do say that Noah was a perfect man for his generation though. Of course God is superior to man as he can choose whomever he wants to bestow his grace and mercy upon.

Greetings Friend,

Noah was born in the Godly line of Seth (Ge 5:3-32). He was the last descendent of the Godly line prior to the flood. Through Noah's son Shem the Godly line/seed will continue after the flood. It was in the line of Seth that man began to call upon the name of the LORD (Ge 4:26). So Noah was taught the ways of God from his youth, being one of the sons of God, walking in integrity, sincerely, upright...i.e. perfect in his generations. Did Noah choose to be born in the Godly line of Seth, among those who began to call upon the name of the LORD? Do you think it is merely co-incidence or luck that Noah was not born into the ungodly line of Cain?

Noah was a chosen vessel, therefore through the providence of God he is born in the Godly line to be one in the line of Christ. Noah's whole life is guided by the providence or hand of God, to do whatsoever God determined he would do. It is true that Noah chose to serve the LORD, but could he have chosen to walk in integrity of heart if God had not ordained when, where, and to whom he would be born?

To Noah God says:

Ge 9:9 And I, behold, I establish my covenant with you, and with your seed after you;



Still I think it means that there was something different about this man that God had noticed, that he hadn't seen in other men during the time. Think of he Psalm 53:2 verse given by Just_Another_Guy. Or think of Enoch..Noah's grandfather. Both men walked with God throughout their lives, so they definitely had special relationships with him, perhaps a bit different than what we have now.

God bless in Christian Love,

Stephen

Of course there is something different about Noah! He is among the sons of God, elect from the foundation of the world. God has ordained all that Noah will do and be. In Ps 53:2 God looks at the condition of men upon the earth...and He finds: "Every one of them is gone back: they are altogether become filthy; there is none that doeth good, no, not one."

What does the fact that Enoch, who walked with God all his life, and is the grandfather of Noah tell you? All who are in Christ have the same relationship with the Father that Noah, and Enoch had. The one thing I think they had greater than we though is faith. What would it be like to have the kind of mountain moving faith we find when we read of these OT saints? Is it any wonder that before Christ went to the Father He asks at His return, "will I find faith on the earth?" (Lu 18:8)

Noah is a man, born of Adam just like you or I. He is not righteous, and he would not love the LORD unless God intervenes in his life, ordaining all things that will be according to God's will, not his own. He freely chooses to walk in righteousness and integrity of heart because God has made him willing. Noah, like we was saved by grace through faith that was not his own, but the gift of God.

Many Blessings,
RW

reformedct
Dec 19th 2008, 08:51 PM
Hey Roger,

The verses do say that Noah was a perfect man for his generation though. Of course God is superior to man as he can choose whomever he wants to bestow his grace and mercy upon.

Still I think it means that there was something different about this man that God had noticed, that he hadn't seen in other men during the time. Think of he Psalm 53:2 verse given by Just_Another_Guy. Or think of Enoch..Noah's grandfather. Both men walked with God throughout their lives, so they definitely had special relationships with him, perhaps a bit different than what we have now.

God bless in Christian Love,

Stephen

i see what you guys are getting at, and i think this is what sums it up:

Can man do good apart from God?

reformed believe absolutely no human being apart from God can be righteouss or do anything righteouss. If anything truly righteouss is done by a man, it is because God has done something to that man FIRST


others say maybe or yes he can do something good even though he has a sinful nature he can somehow do something good against his nature and then God will "notice" that. But seeing that God is Alpha and Omega does he really "notice" something in a sense that he didn't know it was going to happen?

just my two pennies

Friend of I AM
Dec 19th 2008, 09:01 PM
Thank you for that wonderful information and insight Roger. You know, I was about to write a long rebuttal..but looking further at what you've stated..I'm going to have to agree with you for the most part. I'm not sure though if I'd entirely reconcile God deeming Noah as righteous due to pre-ordainment. I think God's will open's up a realm of possibilities..and thus, mankind was ultimately saved due to God being merciful, but at the same time..there were possibilities within Noah's life..choices he could have made that would have made him become unrighteous in the presence of God...and God could have indeed withheld his mercy from Noah. Think about it this way..what if Noah had done every wicked deed that God detested..and still been of the line of Seth? Do you think God would have deemed Noah a righteous man for his generation? I don't think so. So I don't think entirely that Noah was deemed righteous by God due to pre-ordainment, I think within the realm of possibilities that were present before Noah -- God found favor in him being righteous and upright based on his "walking with God" throughout his life. "Walking with God" does indeed include a certain amount of free will..as God doesn't inherently force individuals to walk with him.

Friend of I AM
Dec 19th 2008, 09:09 PM
i see what you guys are getting at, and i think this is what sums it up:

Can man do good apart from God?

reformed believe absolutely no human being apart from God can be righteouss or do anything righteouss. If anything truly righteouss is done by a man, it is because God has done something to that man FIRST


others say maybe or yes he can do something good even though he has a sinful nature he can somehow do something good against his nature and then God will "notice" that. But seeing that God is Alpha and Omega does he really "notice" something in a sense that he didn't know it was going to happen?

just my two pennies

Makes me think of these Eziekiel verses...


Ezekiel 18:5-13“If a man is righteous and does what is just and right— if he does not eat upon the mountains or lift up his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel, does not defile his neighbor's wife or approach a woman in her time of menstrual impurity, does not oppress anyone, but restores to the debtor his pledge, commits no robbery, gives his bread to the hungry and covers the naked with a garment, 8 does not lend at interest or take any profit, withholds his hand from injustice, executes true justice between man and man, walks in my statutes, and keeps my rules by acting faithfully—he is righteous; he shall surely live, declares the Lord God.“If he fathers a son who is violent, a shedder of blood, who does any of these things (though he himself did none of these things), who even eats upon the mountains, defiles his neighbor's wife, oppresses the poor and needy, commits robbery, does not restore the pledge, lifts up his eyes to the idols, commits abomination, lends at interest, and takes profit; shall he then live? He shall not live. He has done all these abominations; he shall surely die; his blood shall be upon himself.


I don't think any of the above precludes God choosing to be merciful and graceful to whom he wants to be merciful and graceful to..just have to be careful in thinking that men can do anything wicked imaginable and then all of the sudden think that God will demonstrate mercy on them due to grace or what one believes is pre-ordainment. Grace and blessings to all,Stephen

RogerW
Dec 19th 2008, 09:27 PM
Thank you for that wonderful information and insight Roger. You know, I was about to write a long rebuttal..but looking further at what you've stated..I'm going to have to agree with you for the most part. I'm not sure though if I'd entirely reconcile God deeming Noah as righteous due to pre-ordainment. I think God's will open's up a realm of possibilities..and thus, mankind was ultimately saved due to God being merciful, but at the same time..there were possibilities within Noah's life..choices he could have made that would have made him become unrighteous in the presence of God...and God could have indeed withheld his mercy from Noah. Think about it this way..what if Noah had done every wicked deed that God detested..and still been of the line of Seth? Do you think God would have deemed Noah a righteous man for his generation? I don't think so. So I don't think entirely that Noah was deemed righteous by God due to pre-ordainment, I think within the realm of possibilities that were present before Noah -- God found favor in him being righteous and upright based on his "walking with God" throughout his life. "Walking with God" does indeed include a certain amount of free will..as God doesn't inherently force individuals to walk with him.

That's a good point Stephen. God doesn't have to force us to walk with Him, because He changes our wills, making us willing and wanting, giving us a desire to walk with Him.

If Noah had done evil, even though he was born in the line of Seth would that have made him unrighteous before God, or kept him from being righteous? We have some examples even from Noah himself. Aren't you the one who pointed out Noah's sin of drunkenness and nakedness? Then there is David, who was an adulterer and murderer. Did either of these sons of God become unrighteous through their sins? We are not saved by what we do or do not do, and we are not lost by what we do and what we do not do. Thank you dear Lord! We are saved by grace through faith that is not our own but the gift of God!!! What does that mean? Can we undo or keep God from doing according to His grace whatsoever He wills?

This does not mean we are given a liscense to sin when we are saved. In fact, like David, when we realize we have sinned against God, it ought to break our hearts and cause us great agony, making us cry out to God for mercy and compassion. Praying that by His grace He will turn us away from our sins, and give us a deep hatred for our sins.

I do not believe that any of the elect of God, chosen from the foundation of the world, and written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world can be lost, since God has ordained them to eternal life.

Many Blessings,
RW

Friend of I AM
Dec 19th 2008, 09:33 PM
We are not saved by what we do or do not do, and we are not lost by what we do and what we do not do.

We can become lost if we don't continue in his grace and kindness...that's what I think is important to state. Many make the mistake of thinking pre-ordainment means "license to wickedness" I don't think that's the case, here is a verse from the Apostle Paul...

Romans 11:22 Look at how kind and how severe God can be. He is severe to those who fell, but kind to you if you continue to hold on to his kindness. Otherwise, you, too, will be cut off [from the tree].

We all need to continue doing what's right..in the eyes of God. The race isn't finished, and we continue on..knowing that God will hopefully assist us in getting the prize in the end.

RogerW
Dec 19th 2008, 09:48 PM
We can become lost if we don't continue in his grace and kindness...that's what I think is important to state. Many make the mistake of thinking pre-ordainment means "license to wickedness" I don't think that's the case, here is a verse from the Apostle Paul...

Romans 11:22 Look at how kind and how severe God can be. He is severe to those who fell, but kind to you if you continue to hold on to his kindness. Otherwise, you, too, will be cut off [from the tree].

We all need to continue doing what's right..in the eyes of God. The race isn't finished, and we continue on..knowing that God will hopefully assist us in getting the prize in the end.

But Stephen, how can I not continue if it is God working in me to both will and do of His good pleasure? How can I not continue if Christ ever lives to make intercession for me before the Father? How can I not continue since Christ is both the Author and Finisher of faith? If I had only my own strength, my own weak, and feeble faith then I would be like those who fall, but since I know that He is in me, keeping me from altogether falling, then I know with assurance that I will continue through Him. Remember those in Ro 11 were cut off because of unbelief...can I return to unbelief after I have received saving faith/belief? Can God lose one of His sheep, who hear His voice and follow Him?

Joh 6:38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
Joh 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
Joh 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Many Blessings,
RW

Friend of I AM
Dec 19th 2008, 10:01 PM
But Stephen, how can I not continue if it is God working in me to both will and do of His good pleasure? How can I not continue if Christ ever lives to make intercession for me before the Father? How can I not continue since Christ is both the Author and Finisher of faith? If I had only my own strength, my own weak, and feeble faith then I would be like those who fall, but since I know that He is in me, keeping me from altogether falling, then I know with assurance that I will continue through Him. Remember those in Ro 11 were cut off because of unbelief...can I return to unbelief after I have received saving faith/belief? Can God lose one of His sheep, who hear His voice and follow Him?

Joh 6:38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
Joh 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
Joh 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Many Blessings,
RW

Hey Roger,

I understand what you are saying. Salvation is of God, given to us through the grace of his son Jesus through the cross. That doesn't mean that our faith in Christ, allows us to do anything we want to in the presence of God. That's why I say that we need to be very careful with pre-ordainment doctrines. Jesus never preached that anyone should go about trying to purposely hurt and mutilate others, take pleasure in it..and then having done all this based on our faith in him we will be saved.

By doing something like this, we're essentially admonishing the grace given to us by God through his son, and stating that we never really received it. I'm not advocating that anyone live a life of incessant rules, standards, and ordinances(created by man) in order to be saved..there walk should be one of faith and grace..just stating that there should be a certain degree of peace, good-will, self control, etc that is present within one's walk if they have truly received his grace, and if they are truly of the faith.


God bless in Christian Love,

Stephen