PDA

View Full Version : Salvation of OT saints



reformedct
Dec 18th 2008, 11:06 PM
I really have a hard time understanding how this works. Sorry if there is already a thread about it.

We know salvation is under no other name other than Jesus

The OT saints didnt know that name, but obviously some were saved, as we see moses and elijah appearing before Jesus during the transfiguration. So Moses is in some sense alive today wherever he is

Can someone please try to explain this in as simple a way as possible?

Friend of I AM
Dec 18th 2008, 11:10 PM
I really have a hard time understanding how this works. Sorry if there is already a thread about it.

We know salvation is under no other name other than Jesus

The OT saints didnt know that name, but obviously some were saved, as we see moses and elijah appearing before Jesus during the transfiguration. So Moses is in some sense alive today wherever he is

Can someone please try to explain this in as simple a way as possible?

God predistined his salvific grace through Christ to save both Moses and Elijah...as well as the other OT saints.

reformedct
Dec 18th 2008, 11:21 PM
i think Jesus said that Abraham saw His day and rejoiced(refferring to the time when Christ would come)

Our God is truly amazing how He works evrything out is pretty awesome

i wonder how Abraham saw Jesus's day and rejoiced?

Friend of I AM
Dec 18th 2008, 11:29 PM
i think Jesus said that Abraham saw His day and rejoiced(refferring to the time when Christ would come)

Our God is truly amazing how He works evrything out is pretty awesome

i wonder how Abraham saw Jesus's day and rejoiced?

By walking with God throughout his life. The bible doesn't say specifically how God revealed it to him though.

Silent Wings
Dec 18th 2008, 11:36 PM
We know salvation is under no other name other than Jesus

Can someone please try to explain this in as simple a way as possible


…Salvation was offered all those millennia before Christ went to the cross, and now is offered millennia afterwards.

HisLeast
Dec 18th 2008, 11:44 PM
But how was that salvation offered?

Friend of I AM
Dec 18th 2008, 11:52 PM
But how was that salvation offered?

Through God..as he is the only savior of men.(Isaiah 43:11-13)

Silent Wings
Dec 19th 2008, 12:39 AM
But how was that salvation offered?


How could the blood of Christ be efficacious for salvation thousands of years before He went to the cross? The same way the blood of Christ is efficacious for salvation thousands of years after.

Could the efficacy of His awesome sacrifice possibly be constrained by time? I say no, how about you?

John27
Dec 19th 2008, 12:45 AM
My RCIA instructor stated that Jesus is shown in some churches reaching into the underworld and pulling Adam, Moses, Abraham and all them up into heaven. However I cannot come to terms with the idea of these old testament saints stuck in an underworld for the following reasons: 1. The OT states One of these saints was brought to the heavens on a firey chariot and the OT also says that ENoch was favored and walked with God. 2. This underworld as opposed to heaven would not merit a reward for those God found favor with, would Noah go to the same place as Cain? 3. Most Jews I know state that their belief is a heaven and that the spirits closest to God shine brighter than those who are not. 4. A belief in an underworld where both good and bad would go would validate the Greek mythology of Hades and his underworld.

However at the same time it is said that Jesus opens the gates to heaven.

I guess the best way to describe this is that death and spiritual life transcend the definitions of time, therefore Jesus was always there as shown from the begining of Gospel according to John. It is also evident throughout OT if you look for it. Therefore when Noah, Abraham etc died Jesus was there to open the gates of heaven as he always was because God and heaven transcend time as we know it.

Thouh I've never been to heaven so I can't say this is true or not but based on my limited knowledge of the bible it seems to hint in this direction.

Amos_with_goats
Dec 19th 2008, 12:59 AM
Some had faith that "The Lord shall provide a sacrifice"

(Gen 22:8)

Others have faith that the Lord has sent a sacrifice.

(1 John 2:2)

There is only one way anyone has ever been, or ever can be saved.

(John 14:6) (also take a look at REV 13:8, if you doubt there is a difference)

Salvation is a past event (the cross), a present event, and most of all a future event at the judgment.

It is simple if you do not place the worlds divisions into scripture.

Blessings,

HisLeast
Dec 19th 2008, 01:09 AM
Could the efficacy of His awesome sacrifice possibly be constrained by time? I say no, how about you?

I have no idea what this means.

Friend of I AM
Dec 19th 2008, 01:13 AM
I have no idea what this means.

I think it means could his sacrifice be constraint by human time? My thought would be no, sense God's grace was available before the coming of Christ.

HisLeast
Dec 19th 2008, 01:27 AM
I think it means could his sacrifice be constraint by human time? My thought would be no, sense God's grace was available before the coming of Christ.

Well, no... (at least I don't think so). But how would the Old Testament saints have known that?

Just_Another_Guy
Dec 19th 2008, 01:29 AM
Well, no... (at least I don't think so). But how would the Old Testament saints have known that?

God told them about the Christ.

reformedct
Dec 19th 2008, 02:18 AM
How could the blood of Christ be efficacious for salvation thousands of years before He went to the cross? The same way the blood of Christ is efficacious for salvation thousands of years after.

Could the efficacy of His awesome sacrifice possibly be constrained by time? I say no, how about you?

it is my personal belief that the sacrifice of Jesus blood has eternal effects. What Jesus did is not contained by time in the way we concieve it, but it was a once and for all sacrifice that was efficient for eternity. When we go to heaven, the effects of Jesus sacrifice will still be in action. did that make sense?

reformedct
Dec 19th 2008, 02:21 AM
I think it means could his sacrifice be constraint by human time? My thought would be no, sense God's grace was available before the coming of Christ.


yes i believe the efficacy of Christ's work is not constrained by human time because God is outside of time.

It seems that God beforehand knew that the sins of Abraham, and Moses and David will all be atoned for in the uture, and in a sense they were already atoned for, since God is Alpha and Omega hahaha its kinda mind boggling to explain or fathom this, thats why God is so tight haha

HisLeast
Dec 19th 2008, 02:42 AM
God told them about the Christ.

Then how come its not mentioned anywhere in the OT?

reformedct
Dec 19th 2008, 02:48 AM
Then how come its not mentioned anywhere in the OT?

i don't believe God told them Jesus's exact name. however maybe God revealed to them somehow that there would be a Messiah, and they had faith in God that that Messiah would come, so its almost the same as believing in the Messiah if he was already there?

also, i think Jesus is present many times in the OT, when it says THE ANGEL of THE LORD. Many times it will say AN angel or say the angels name like "Gabriel", but occasionally it will say THE ANGEL of the Lord.

Remember when Jacob wrestled with THE ANGEL of the LORD, and said, what is your name? and THE angel said, why do you ask me my name? and then didn't tell him. Then Jacob said I have seen the Face of the Lord, and lived.

If it was just an angel why would he say he saw the face of the LORD?
and why did the angel deny giving out his name? I think it was JEsus!

also when shadrach meshac and abendengo got thrown in the furnace and then there were four people in there, the king said: the fourth looks like the Son of God(many newer less accurate version will say A son of God but i belive the kjv says THE SON OF GOD

Silent Wings
Dec 19th 2008, 02:57 AM
it is my personal belief that the sacrifice of Jesus blood has eternal effects. What Jesus did is not contained by time in the way we concieve it, but it was a once and for all sacrifice that was efficient for eternity. When we go to heaven, the effects of Jesus sacrifice will still be in action. did that make sense?

…and it makes perfect sense.

Praise to our awesome Lord and Savior!

RogerW
Dec 19th 2008, 04:48 AM
I really have a hard time understanding how this works. Sorry if there is already a thread about it.

We know salvation is under no other name other than Jesus

The OT saints didnt know that name, but obviously some were saved, as we see moses and elijah appearing before Jesus during the transfiguration. So Moses is in some sense alive today wherever he is

Can someone please try to explain this in as simple a way as possible?

The coming of the Messiah was written in the prophets from the beginning of redemptive history. They fully understood Messiah, the Savior would come to redeem them...in fact they had great detail about this much long for event. Those who by faith looked for His coming were saved by grace through faith in the same way we are saved by grace through faith looking back at His coming.

Beginning in Ge 3:15 - he will come through the seed of a woman...this prophecy was fulfilled in Gal 4:4.

Gen 12:3 - he would be a descendent of Abraham...fulfilled in Mt 1:1.

Gen 17:19 - a descendant of Isaac...fulfilled in Lu 3:34.

Num 24:17 - a descendant of Jacob...fulfilled in Mt 1:2

Gen 49:10 - from the tribe of Judah...fulfilled in Lu 3:33.

Is 9:7 - heir to the throne of David...fulfilled in Lu 1:32.

Ps 45:6,7; 102:25-27 - anointed and eternal...fulfilled in Heb 1:8-12.

Mic 5:2 - born in Bethlehem...fulfilled in Lu 2:4, 5, 7.

Dan 9:25 - time for His birth...fulfilled in Lu 2:1,2.

Is 7:14 - to be born of a virgin...fulfilled in Lu 1:26,27,30,31.

Jer 31:15 - slaughter of children...fulfilled in Mt 2:16-18.

Hos 11:1 - flight to Egypt...fulfilled in Mt 2:14,15.

Is 40:3-5 - the way prepared...Lu 3:3-6.

Mal 3:1 - proceeded by a forerunner...Lu 7:24,27.

Mal 4:5,6 - proceeded by Elijah...Mt 11:13,14.

Ps 2:7 - declared the Son of God...Mt 3:17.

Is 9:1,2 - Galilean ministry...Mt 4:13-16.

Ps 78:2-4 - speaks in parables...Mt 13:34,35.

Deut 18:15 - a prophet...Acts 3:20,22.

Is 61:1,2 - to bind up the brokenhearted...Lu 4:18,19.

Is 53:3 - rejected by His own people, the Jews...Jo 1:11; Lu 23:18.

Ps 110:4 - priest after the order of Melchizedek...Heb 5:5,6.

Zech 9:9 - triumphal entry...Mk 11:7,9,11.

Ps 8:2 - adored by infants...Mt 21:15,16.

Is 53:1 - not believed...Jo 12:37.

Ps 41:9 - betrayed by close friend...Lu 22:47,48.

Zech 11:12 - betrayed for thirty pieces of silver...Mt 26:14,15.

Ps 35:11 - accused by false witnesses...Mt 14:57,58.

Is 53:7 - silent to accusations...Mk 15:4.

Is 50:6 - spat on and struck...Mt 26:67.

Ps 35:19 - hated without reason...Jo 15:24,25.

Is 53:5 - vicarious sacrifice...Ro 5:6,8.

Is 53:12 - crucified with malfactors...Mk 15:27,28.

Zech 12:10 - pierced through hands and feet...Jo 20:27.

Ps 22:7 - sneered and mocked...Lu 23:35.

Ps 69:9 - was reproached...Ro 15:3.

Ps 109:4 - prayer for His enemies...Lu 23:34.

Ps 22:17,18 - soldiers gambled for His clothing...Mt 27:35,36.

Ps 22:1 - forsaken by God...Mt 27:46

Ps 34:20 - no bones broken...Jo 19:32,33,36.

Zech 12:10 - His side pierced...Jo 19:34.

Is 53:9 - buried with the rich...Mt 27:57-60.

Ps 16:10; 49:15 - to be resurrected...Mk 16:6,7.

Ps 68:18 - His ascension to God's right hand...Mk 16:19; 1Co 15:4; Eph 4:8.

They have no excuse for not believing in Him when He came. They had for hundreds of years been told to look for His coming.

Many Blessings,
RW

Sirus
Dec 19th 2008, 05:17 AM
I really have a hard time understanding how this works. Sorry if there is already a thread about it.

We know salvation is under no other name other than Jesus

The OT saints didnt know that name, but obviously some were saved, as we see moses and elijah appearing before Jesus during the transfiguration. So Moses is in some sense alive today wherever he is

Can someone please try to explain this in as simple a way as possible?I didn't read all the replies, so sorry if someone has pointed this out.....

"no other name"

what is name in that passage?
onoma = character and authority

Amos_with_goats
Dec 19th 2008, 05:23 AM
Sirus,


I didn't read all the replies, so sorry if someone has pointed this out.....

"no other name"


I believe we are on the same page.


Some had faith that "The Lord shall provide a sacrifice"

(Gen 22:8)

Others have faith that the Lord has sent a sacrifice.

(1 John 2:2)

There is only one way anyone has ever been, or ever can be saved.

(John 14:6) (also take a look at REV 13:8, if you doubt there is a difference)

Salvation is a past event (the cross), a present event, and most of all a future event at the judgment.

It is simple if you do not place the worlds divisions into scripture.

Blessings,

Sirus
Dec 19th 2008, 07:20 AM
Yes we are. Abraham rejoiced in Jesus' day.

dozie
Dec 19th 2008, 07:40 AM
That moses lives on is what we can't explain better.but the positive side is that christ nature will be revealed on us when he appears again.
it is not a matter of days for the blood .Remeber the time difference between the construction of the Art and the time the rain came.the word of the Lord standeth for sure so the cross is where the Lord Jesus paid the price for our sins.Abraham rejoiced in jesus days .Christ is the offspring of Abraham

Just_Another_Guy
Dec 19th 2008, 03:18 PM
Then how come its not mentioned anywhere in the OT?

John 8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.

Acts 7:37 This is that Moses, which said unto the children of Israel, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear.

Isaiah Prophecy...

I'm sure Adam probably knew about it as well..now I know people on here are not hot to trot about the apocryphal books..but like it or not they do contain books that are currently in the OT. There are several verses in the books of Adam and Eve which allude to God telling Adam that a savior will come from his line...

Br. Barnabas
Dec 19th 2008, 03:23 PM
My RCIA instructor stated that Jesus is shown in some churches reaching into the underworld and pulling Adam, Moses, Abraham and all them up into heaven. However I cannot come to terms with the idea of these old testament saints stuck in an underworld for the following reasons: 1. The OT states One of these saints was brought to the heavens on a firey chariot and the OT also says that ENoch was favored and walked with God. 2. This underworld as opposed to heaven would not merit a reward for those God found favor with, would Noah go to the same place as Cain? 3. Most Jews I know state that their belief is a heaven and that the spirits closest to God shine brighter than those who are not. 4. A belief in an underworld where both good and bad would go would validate the Greek mythology of Hades and his underworld.

However at the same time it is said that Jesus opens the gates to heaven.

I guess the best way to describe this is that death and spiritual life transcend the definitions of time, therefore Jesus was always there as shown from the begining of Gospel according to John. It is also evident throughout OT if you look for it. Therefore when Noah, Abraham etc died Jesus was there to open the gates of heaven as he always was because God and heaven transcend time as we know it.

Thouh I've never been to heaven so I can't say this is true or not but based on my limited knowledge of the bible it seems to hint in this direction.

The belief that you are summarizing here is the Harrowing of Hell believed by some of the early church fathers and many of the traditional churches today.

The things that you don't like about it are actually what ancient Jews believed and what many of the Jews believed in Jesus' time.

The Bible says that one person went to heaven without seeing death Elijah. It is infered that Enoch did as well, however, the text does not say that just that he walked with God and that he was no more because God took him.

But the ancient Jews believe in a place called She'ol it was the underworld/place of the dead. Where all the dead went, both good and bad. Samuel when he is brought up from the dead says why have you distruped my rest. Usually She'ol is described as a sleepy dark place where the dead rest and wait for the end of the world or the savior as the case may be.

Modern Jews don't believe this but they don't believe or pratice much of what their forefathers did.

Hades is different than She'ol. Hades has different places for the heroes, the normal people, and the bad people. The dead are awake and active in Hades, unlike She'ol. There is really not much of a comparison between the two.

The Harrowing of Hell doctrine says that after Christ died on the Cross he went down to She'ol and preached salvation to the dead, bring out the righteous dead. Icons of the Harrowing of Hell have Christ standing on a Cross over and Hell/She'ol being broken open helping Adam and Eve out of She'ol. Some people will refer to She'ol/the place where Christ went and preached Abraham's Bossum. Peter writes about Christ going to preach to those spirits in prison.

David Taylor
Dec 19th 2008, 04:00 PM
Salvation of OT saints
I really have a hard time understanding how this works.

Can someone please try to explain this in as simple a way as possible?

Some verses for you.

God "hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation; That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us" Acts 17:26

"Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen." Romans 1:19

"Then Jesus said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken:Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory? And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself." Luke 24:25

"And Jesus said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me. Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures, And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day: And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem." Luke 24:44

Jesus said, "How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that cometh from God only? Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust. For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me; for he wrote of me. But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?" John 5:44

"By faith Moses, when he was come to years, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter; Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season; Esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt: for he had respect unto the recompence of the reward. By faith he forsook Egypt, not fearing the wrath of the king: for he endured, as seeing him who is invisible." Hebrews 11:24

"They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham. But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham. Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God. Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me. Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word. Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not. Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me? He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God." John 8:39

"For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ. For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; And did all eat the same spiritual meat; And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ. " I Corinthians 12:12, 10:1

"Jesus Christ: Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory: Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls. Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you: Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow." I Peter 1:7

"blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed." John 20:29

(That's most all of humanity. 99.9999%, between Adam and us.)

RabbiKnife
Dec 19th 2008, 04:05 PM
"In the name of Jesus" and "no other name" doesn't mean the same thing in English as it did in Greek.

Generally, "in the name of someone" is like in the old movies...when the policeman beat on the door and said "open in the name of the law." It's not about what you call Jesus when you want him to come to dinner, it's about his authority. There is no other authority by which anyone can be saved.

Paul teaches us Abraham believed God, and his faith was counted to him as righteousness. Salvation in the OT, and in the NT, and forever more is about our faith in God as the source of salvation, nothing else.

Abraham and Moses were saved the same way you and I are...by faith in God.

Friend of I AM
Dec 19th 2008, 04:08 PM
"In the name of Jesus" and "no other name" doesn't mean the same thing in English as it did in Greek.

Generally, "in the name of someone" is like in the old movies...when the policeman beat on the door and said "open in the name of the law." It's not about what you call Jesus when you want him to come to dinner, it's about his authority. There is no other authority by which anyone can be saved.

Paul teaches us Abraham believed God, and his faith was counted to him as righteousness. Salvation in the OT, and in the NT, and forever more is about our faith in God as the source of salvation, nothing else.

Abraham and Moses were saved the same way you and I are...by faith in God.

Or God's faithfulness to them..as he promised a sabbath rest for his people.