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Bladers
Dec 19th 2008, 02:09 AM
Samuel died, yet Saul was able to call him back through a woman who had a fimiliar spirit.

Did samuel go to heaven when he died? Did He come back from the dead to speak to Saul?

How was this possible and do you believe saul went to heaven? Please state your opinion!

1 Samuel 28

HisLeast
Dec 19th 2008, 02:42 AM
Samuel died, yet Saul was able to call him back through a woman who had a fimiliar spirit.

Did samuel go to heaven when he died? Did He come back from the dead to speak to Saul?

How was this possible and do you believe saul went to heaven? Please state your opinion!

1 Samuel 28

I don't know where we go after death. Total mystery. So that answers the first question. As for coming back from the dead... well, there was at least a conscious part of him that crossed back into the land of the living, but I don't think he was "raised from the dead" as that indicates to me something physical.

Enoch365
Dec 19th 2008, 04:09 AM
Samuel died, yet Saul was able to call him back through a woman who had a fimiliar spirit.

Did samuel go to heaven when he died? Did He come back from the dead to speak to Saul?

How was this possible and do you believe saul went to heaven? Please state your opinion!

1 Samuel 28


Samuel don't come back for dead. That was like black magic. it look like him it was satan works.

unkerns
Dec 19th 2008, 04:12 AM
Everything seems to be mostly clear about death and then we read Revelation and it puts us at square one with everything

Sirus
Dec 19th 2008, 05:21 AM
Samuel's spirit went to Abraham's bosom. At the resurrection of Christ he went to the throne.

Bladers
Dec 19th 2008, 09:30 PM
Samuel's spirit went to Abraham's bosom. At the resurrection of Christ he went to the throne.


Do you have a scripture reference that can prove that?

Bladers
Dec 19th 2008, 09:31 PM
Samuel don't come back for dead. That was like black magic. it look like him it was satan works.

Does satan tell the truth, and Acknowledge God as the samuel did?

OldChurchGuy
Dec 20th 2008, 04:03 AM
Samuel died, yet Saul was able to call him back through a woman who had a fimiliar spirit.

Did samuel go to heaven when he died? Did He come back from the dead to speak to Saul?

How was this possible and do you believe saul went to heaven? Please state your opinion!

1 Samuel 28

It is my understanding Samuel was at Sheol (the abode of the dead). At the time I Samuel was written the Jews really didn't have a clear understanding / belief of what happens to a person after death.

The idea of heaven came about some centuries later after the Babylonian captivity.

So, it would seem that at the time of I Samuel, Samuel went to Sheol. He was called back from Sheol by the Witch of Endor. Saul also went to Sheol at his death.

Enough rambling.

OldChurchGuy

Kahtar
Dec 20th 2008, 04:34 AM
The idea of heaven came about some centuries later after the Babylonian captivity.Huh? There was an understanding of heaven at least as early as Enoch.
Nevertheless, Jesus Himself taught about heaven, so regardless when or where they 'came to the idea of heaven', it is truth.
Mat 5:3 Blessed [are] the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
I don't think that to this day the Jews believe anyone 'goes to heaven' when they die. They are expecting the kingdom to be established in Israel.
Whereever we happen to go when we die, it would seem that not only Samuel, but Moses and Elijah were also there, the latter two appearing with Jesus on the Mount.

Lefty
Dec 20th 2008, 05:07 AM
Hmm, I just got done reading 1&2 Samuel, and am pretty well persuaded the witch brought up a demon not the prophet. I believe the only one in scripture who communicated with the dead was Christ at the transfiguration. It's hard to accept that Saul, who had been rejected by God at this point, and who was not in any sort of communication with God, would be given the honor of receiving counsel from the departed prophet, which would have been effectively a blessing from God imo. Besides, a familiar spirit refers to a demon, and that's what this woman had.

markedward
Dec 20th 2008, 05:18 AM
Samuel don't come back for dead. That was like black magic. it look like him it was satan works.


Hmm, I just got done reading 1&2 Samuel, and am pretty well persuaded the witch brought up a demon not the prophet.

This is not what Scripture says. Scripture directly says it was Samuel. Unless you can point out Scripture that says the person appearing before Saul was not Samuel, then you are outright contradicting what Scripture plainly says. It directly says it was Samuel. Nothing in the text says or implies that it wasn't Samuel. Not to mention the fact that Samuel's prophecy was completely accurate and was fulfilled. So would you say that a demon - one that Scripture does not hint at - was able to predict the future? Or that God allowed Samuel's spirit to be called up and prophesy just as he had done while alive?


It's hard to accept that Saul, who had been rejected by God at this point, and who was not in any sort of communication with God, would be given the honor of receiving counsel from the departed prophet, which would have been effectively a blessing from God imo.An "honor"? What the prophets said had nothing to do with "honoring" the people. Most of the time they spoke messages of "turn or burn". Samuel didn't say anything that would "honor" Saul: he pretty much told him he would die with no way out.


Samuel died, yet Saul was able to call him back through a woman who had a fimiliar spirit.

Did samuel go to heaven when he died? Did He come back from the dead to speak to Saul?

How was this possible and do you believe saul went to heaven? Please state your opinion!Where does it say Samuel came from heaven? It doesn't. It says he came up from out of the earth. Heaven is described as "up" in Scripture. What's described as "down"? The only place described as "down" or even in the earth was sheol or hades. The Scripture doesn't describe Samuel as coming from 'down' from heaven, it says he came 'up' from the earth.

Sirus
Dec 20th 2008, 05:21 AM
Hmm, I just got done reading 1&2 Samuel, and am pretty well persuaded the witch brought up a demon not the prophetThat doesn't make any sense. Why did she react the way she did if it was what she was used to seeing?

Sirus
Dec 20th 2008, 05:24 AM
Do you have a scripture reference that can prove that?Are you serious? You mean Samuel specifically? Of course not! Do I know and have scripture for what Abraham's bosom was and why they went there instead of in the Lord's presence and do I have scripture for the spirits seen in Jerusalem after the resurrection of Christ? Sure.

Lefty
Dec 20th 2008, 07:34 AM
This is not what Scripture says. Scripture directly says it was Samuel. Unless you can point out Scripture that says the person appearing before Saul was not Samuel, then you are outright contradicting what Scripture plainly says. It directly says it was Samuel. Nothing in the text says or implies that it wasn't Samuel. Not to mention the fact that Samuel's prophecy was completely accurate and was fulfilled. So would you say that a demon - one that Scripture does not hint at - was able to predict the future? Or that God allowed Samuel's spirit to be called up and prophesy just as he had done while alive?

I first took it at face value that it was actually Samuel, for the reason you gave, that it does read "Samuel". But I think it's also a valid interpretion that it's Saul's and the witches impression that it's him, not that it is actually him. That's my opinion now.

I had the same question as the OP when reading through this so I looked for reliable commentary on it;

I'll copy some Matthew Henry on v. 7-14;
III. He tells her his errand and promises her impunity. 1. All he desires of her is to bring up one from the dead, whom he had a mind to discourse with. It was necromancy or divination by the dead, that he hoped to serve his purpose by. This was expressly forbidden by the law (Deut. xviii. 11), seeking for the living to the dead, Isa. viii. 19. Bring me up him whom I shall name, v. 8. This supposes that it was generally taken for granted that souls exist after death, and that when men die there is not an end of them: it supposes too that great knowledge was attributed to separate souls. But to think that any good souls would come up at the beck of an evil spirit, or that God, who had denied a man the benefit of his own institutions, would suffer him to reap any real advantage by a cursed diabolical invention, was very absurd. 2. She signifies her fear of the law, and her suspicion that this stranger came to draw her into a snare (v. 9): Thou knowest what Saul has done. Providence ordered it so that Saul should be told to his face of his edict against witches, at this very time when he was consulting one, for the greater aggravation of his sin. She insists upon the peril of the law, perhaps to raise her price; for, though no mention is made of her fee, no doubt she demanded and had a large one. Observe how sensible she is of danger from the edict of Saul, and what care she is in to guard against it; but not at all apprehensive of the obligations off God's law and the terrors of his wrath. She considered what Saul had done, not what God had done, against such practices, and feared a snare laid for her life more than a snare laid for her soul. It is common for sinners to be more afraid of punishment from men than of God's righteous judgment. But, 3. Saul promises with an oath not to betray her, v. 10. It was his duty as a king to punish her and he knew it, yet he swears no to do it; as if he could by his own oath bind himself from doing that which, by the divine command, he was bound to do. But he promised more than he could perform when he said, There shall no punishment happen to thee; for he that could not secure himself could much less secure her from divine vengeance.
IV. Samuel, who was lately dead, is the person whom Saul desired to have some talk with; and the witch, with her enchantments, gratifies his desire, and brings them together. 1. As soon as Saul had given the witch the assurance she desired (that he would not discover her) she applied to her witchcrafts, and asked very confidently, Whom shall I bring up to thee? v. 11. Note, Hopes of impunity embolden sinners in their evil ways and harden their hearts. 2. Saul desires to speak with Samuel: Bring me up Samuel. Samuel had anointed him to the kingdom and had formerly been his faithful friend and counsellor, and therefore with him he wished to advise. While Samuel was living at Ramah, not far from Gibeah of Saul, and presided there in the school of the prophets, we never read of Saul's going to him to consult him in any of the difficulties he was in (it would have been well for him if he had); then he slighted him, and perhaps hated him, looking upon him to be in David's interest. But now that he is dead, "O for Samuel again! By all means, bring me up Samuel." Note, Many that despise and persecute God's saints and ministers when they are living would be glad to have them again when they are gone. Send Lazarus to me, and send Lazarus to my father's house, Luke xvi. 24-27. The sepulchres of the righteous are garnished. 3. Here is a seeming defector chasm in the story. Saul said, Bring me up Samuel, and the very next words are, When the woman saw Samuel, (v. 12), whereas one would have expected to be told how she performed the operation, what spells and charms she used, or that some little intimation would be given of what she said or did; but the profound silence of the scripture concerning it forbids our coveting to know the depths of Satan (Rev. ii. 24) or to have our curiosity gratified with an account of the mysteries of iniquity. It has been said of the books of some of the popish confessors that, by their descriptions of sin, they have taught men to commit it; but the scripture conceals sinful art, that we may be simple concerning evil, Rom. xvi. 19. 4. The witch, upon sight of the apparition, was aware that her client was Saul, her familiar spirit, it is likely, informing her of it (v. 12): "Why hast thou deceived me with a disguise; for thou art Saul, the very man that I am afraid of above any man?" Thus she gave Saul to understand the power of her art, in that she could discover him through his disguise; and yet she feared lest, hereafter, at least, he should take advantage against her for what she was now doing. Had she believed that it was really Samuel whom she saw, she would have had more reason to be afraid of him, who was a good prophet, than of Saul, who was a wicked king. But the wrath of earthly princes is feared by most more than the wrath of the King of kings. 5. Saul (who, we may suppose, was kept at a distance in the next room) bade her not to be afraid of him, but go on with the operation, and enquired what she saw? v. 13. O, says the woman, I saw gods (that is, a spirit) ascending out of the earth; they called angels gods, because spiritual beings. Poor gods that ascend out of the earth! But she speaks the language of the heathen, who had their infernal deities and had them in veneration. If Saul had thought it necessary to his conversation with Samuel that the body of Samuel should be called out of the grave, he would have taken the witch with him to Ramah, where his sepulchre was; but the design was wholly upon his soul, which yet, if it became visible, was expected to appear in the usual resemblance of the body; and God permitted the devil, to answer the design, to put on Samuel's shape, that those who would not receive the love of the truth might be given up to strong delusions and believe a lie. That it could not be the soul of Samuel himself they might easily apprehend when it ascended out of the earth, for the spirit of a man, much more of a good man, goes upward, Eccl. iii. 21. But, if people will be deceived, it is just with God to say, "Let them be deceived." That the devil, by the divine permission, should be able to personate Samuel is not strange, since he can transform himself into an angel of light! nor is it strange that he should be permitted to do it upon this occasion, that Saul might be driven to despair, by enquiring of the devil, since he would not, in a right manner, enquire of the Lord, by which he might have had comfort. Saul, being told of gods ascending, was eager to know what was the form of this deity, and in what shape he appeared, so far was he from conceiving any horror at it, his heart being wretchedly hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. Saul, it seems, was not permitted to see any manner of similitude himself, but he must take the woman's word for it, that she saw an old man covered with a mantle, or robe, the habit of a judge, which Samuel had sometimes worn, and some think it was for the sake of that, and the majesty of its aspect, that she called this apparition Elohim, a god or gods; for so magistrates are styled, Ps. lxxxii. 1. 6. Saul, perceiving, by the woman's description, that it was Samuel, stooped with his face to the ground, either, as it is generally taken, in reverence to Samuel, though he saw him not, or perhaps to listen to that soft and muttering voice which he now expected to hear (for those that had familiar spirits peeped and muttered, Isa. viii. 19); and it should seem Saul bowed himself (probably by the witch's direction) that he might hear what was whispered and listen carefully to it; for the voice of one that has a familiar spirit is said to come out of the ground, and whisper out of the dust, Isa. xxix. 4. He would stoop to that who would not stoop to the word of God.


An "honor"? What the prophets said had nothing to do with "honoring" the people. Most of the time they spoke messages of "turn or burn". Samuel didn't say anything that would "honor" Saul: he pretty much told him he would die with no way out.


Right. I meant "honor" in the sense that God would have allowed Saul's request of the witch to actually speak with Samuel to happen. I don't think God "honored" that request.

markedward
Dec 20th 2008, 08:01 AM
But still: where does Scripture say it was a demon and not Samuel? Rather than trying to come up with a long, elaborate explanation for why it "couldn't have been" Samuel... what does Scripture say?

The text doesn't just say "the witch and Saul were under the impression that the spirit was Samuel".

"the woman saw Samuel"
"Then Samuel said to Saul"
"And Samuel said"
"Then Saul [was] filled with fear because of the words of Samuel"

The text says it was Samuel. The text gives no indication, implication, or suggestion that it wasn't Samuel. Trying to claim otherwise is simply contradicting what the Scripture plainly says. It says Samuel showed up.


Right. I meant "honor" in the sense that God would have allowed Saul's request of the witch to actually speak with Samuel to happen. I don't think God "honored" that request.This simply reflects your personal idea of what God "would" or "wouldn't" do. Yet Scripture plainly shows God allowed Samuel to be called up. Once again, Scripture gives zero hint that it was someone other than Samuel who showed up. Which would mean that God did allow it, and trying to claim otherwise is simply contradicting what Scripture plainly says happened.

The claim you make would be like me saying "I don't think Jesus honored Saul [in Acts] because he was a persecutor of the Christians and he was self-righteous." It's the same logic (and in this case, the same name).

You don't think God would "honor" [king] Saul because he was an evil-doer.
I don't think God would "honor" [pharisee] Saul because he was an evil-doer.

But since Scripture plainly tells us that God did "honor" [pharisee] Saul and that Jesus appeared to him, why is it so hard to accept that Scripture just as plainly tells us that God did "honor" [king] Saul and Samuel appeared to him?

Bethany67
Dec 20th 2008, 08:10 AM
It's clear to me from the text that it was really Samuel; you have to do violence to the text to believe it was a demon or something else. It's also clear that the witch was frightened, which implies that actually raising the dead wasn't what she usually did. The implication is that she operated generally by the use of demons/spirits impersonating the dead and expected this encounter to go the same way, and was horrified when it didn't.

daughter
Dec 20th 2008, 10:56 AM
Samuel's spirit went to Abraham's bosom. At the resurrection of Christ he went to the throne.
Absolutely.

We know that the righteous dead were raised from their tombs at the resurrection of Christ, because Matthew says so. So, Samuel who was righteous would, when he died, have gone to the abode of the righteous dead (which Jesus refers to as Abraham's bosom). However, we know he's in heaven now.

Bethany67
Dec 20th 2008, 10:58 AM
Do you mean Samuel, daughter?

daughter
Dec 20th 2008, 11:01 AM
Ergh... yes. :blush: I shall edit the above daft post.

daughter
Dec 20th 2008, 11:06 AM
It's hard to accept that Saul, who had been rejected by God at this point, and who was not in any sort of communication with God, would be given the honor of receiving counsel from the departed prophet, which would have been effectively a blessing from God imo. Then again, it could be that in getting exactly what he asked for, he realized that what would have been a blessing, had he remained obedient to God, was in fact a terrible curse.

The problem is that the text SAYS that Samuel spoke, not that he seemed to speak, or his image spoke... but that Samuel spoke. And I agree with Bethany, that this is what terrified the witch.

Bethany67
Dec 20th 2008, 11:13 AM
Then again, it could be that in getting exactly what he asked for, he realized that what would have been a blessing, had he remained obedient to God, was in fact a terrible curse.

Yes - he'd had no word from the Lord by dreams or Urim or prophets, so he took the matter into his own hands even though Samuel had already told him while alive that God had abandoned him. Then the summoned Samuel told him he and his sons were going to die the following day, and he passed out with fear. Hardly an honour and blessing, but a confirmation of God's judgement.

daughter
Dec 20th 2008, 11:16 AM
If you read it according to the plain sense of the text, rather than looking for hidden demons, the story is actually a terrible warning. It shows that there comes a time when it's impossible to find God's face, and that there's no hope or help, but only a "fearful expectation of judgement."

If you make the whole thing demonic, then it distracts you from the fact that God is terrible in judgement, just as He is long suffering in mercy. What happened to Saul is one of the most chilling warnings in the Bible.

ServantofTruth
Dec 20th 2008, 11:47 AM
daughter - how do you read Ecclesiates 9:5-6? Please don't look on me mentioning these verses as a challenge, i just wish to understand there meaning and learn. How do we fit 'the dead knowing nothing' into your picture? Tanya - help! Love SofTy.

EarlyCall
Dec 20th 2008, 01:02 PM
This is not what Scripture says. Scripture directly says it was Samuel. Unless you can point out Scripture that says the person appearing before Saul was not Samuel, then you are outright contradicting what Scripture plainly says. It directly says it was Samuel. Nothing in the text says or implies that it wasn't Samuel. Not to mention the fact that Samuel's prophecy was completely accurate and was fulfilled. So would you say that a demon - one that Scripture does not hint at - was able to predict the future? Or that God allowed Samuel's spirit to be called up and prophesy just as he had done while alive?

An "honor"? What the prophets said had nothing to do with "honoring" the people. Most of the time they spoke messages of "turn or burn". Samuel didn't say anything that would "honor" Saul: he pretty much told him he would die with no way out.

Where does it say Samuel came from heaven? It doesn't. It says he came up from out of the earth. Heaven is described as "up" in Scripture. What's described as "down"? The only place described as "down" or even in the earth was sheol or hades. The Scripture doesn't describe Samuel as coming from 'down' from heaven, it says he came 'up' from the earth.

Thank you very much for the voice of not only wisdom but reason. Thank you.

As you point out, the scripture clearly says Samuel and gives no indication it was not Samuel. Also as you point out, everything predicted came true. Only god knows the future for only god is sovereign over the future.

I would like to add that we have the witch herself and her reaction to Samuel. Is this the first time she had ever called up spirits? Hardly. This is why Saul came to see her because this is what she did. Now of course it is safe to assume that she was not calling up the dead prior to this, not really. But this time God intervened and the witch was shocked and horrified at it. The witch's reaction gives testimony here that in fact it was Samuel and it was God intervening.

daughter
Dec 20th 2008, 01:06 PM
daughter - how do you read Ecclesiates 9:5-6? Please don't look on me mentioning these verses as a challenge, i just wish to understand there meaning and learn. How do we fit 'the dead knowing nothing' into your picture? Tanya - help! Love SofTy.
God is the God of the living, not the dead. Since He is the God of Samuel, Samuel is not dead, but alive in Christ.

Also, I think the verses from Ecclesiastes need to be read in the whole context of that book... until he submits at the end of the book, it's a very despairing, somewhat cynical look at the futility of life. And life is that futile without God, and death is the end without God.

But Samuel was not without God.

Prophet Daniel
Dec 20th 2008, 01:13 PM
One cannot say 100% for sure. Only God knows.

This scripture confirms one thing to me. Its not to say if there is a manifestation that you are busy with God will.

Especially when we try to find out how the "old man" that is now "dead" according to Paul's epistles got hurt exct.
Not every manifistation confirm you are busy doing God's work. Rather follow scriptural guidelines.

Kahtar
Dec 20th 2008, 01:16 PM
Ecclesiastes 9:5-6
5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any [thing] that is done under the sun.

We know that scripture cannot contradict itself. Here we have the dead who don't know anything, which would seem to mean once you're dead, you are either asleep or non existant.
Then we have Samuel being called up from the grave, and the appearace of Moses and Elijah with Jesus.
So we either have to assume that one or the other is wrong, a lie, or, that our understanding is faulty.
Take a closer look at the passage above. Who is the living, and who is the dead?
The dead know nothing, have no reward, memory of them fades away, and that's it.
But we know that the living DO have a reward, in heaven, for this same Bible tells us so.
He is speaking about those who have no knowledge of God, and thus no life, no salvation, and no reward. Those, the ones who reject God and refuse to live according to His standards, ARE dead. Jude called them 'twice dead'.
Jude 1:10-13
10 But these speak evil of those things which they know not: but what they know naturally, as brute beasts, in those things they corrupt themselves.
11 Woe unto them! for they have gone in the way of Cain, and ran greedily after the error of Balaam for reward, and perished in the gainsaying of Core.
12 These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds [they are] without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots;
13 Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.
Jesus said 'Let the dead bury the dead.'

If one is to take the Ecc. passage to mean there is no consciousness, know knowledge, etc when you die, then they must ALSO take the rest of the verse in the same manner, which says they have no reward, and in so doing, consider the rest of the Word to be a lie.

EarlyCall
Dec 20th 2008, 01:35 PM
Then we have Samuel being called up from the grave, and the appearace of Moses and Elijah with Jesus.



I liked everything you said, but I wanted to comment on this particularly.

We easily believe this was really Moses and Elijah. But why do we believe here they were brought up from the dead for this appearance but Samuel was not? I'm asking this generally and not to any individual.

What differentiates the two? Was God not involved in the incident with Samuel? It seems the foretelling of Saul's demise was from God. It would seem to be.

If we are to determine that Samuel was not called up, it actually being Samuel, then do we also have to say that God had no part in the incident? And if that is so, then what do we say then to the foretelling of the future? That satan can foretell the future? Yes, he can pretend to and can try an manipulate it, but does he actually know it? Where did God say that satan knew the end from the beginning as God knows it?

Anyway, these are the questions that come to mind and the line in your post triggered them.

divaD
Dec 20th 2008, 06:01 PM
Just out of curiosity, is anyone in this thread suggesting that the Spirit of God worked thru the woman that had a familiar spirit? If so, then I would say that this conclusion would be incorrect. But I do believe that it was actually Samuel who's spirit was raised from the dead. I just don't believe that it was accomplished via the Spirit of God. Obviously then, thru other gods/spirits, things such as this can be accomplished.

Kahtar
Dec 20th 2008, 06:53 PM
Just out of curiosity, is anyone in this thread suggesting that the Spirit of God worked thru the woman that had a familiar spirit? If so, then I would say that this conclusion would be incorrect. But I do believe that it was actually Samuel who's spirit was raised from the dead. I just don't believe that it was accomplished via the Spirit of God. Obviously then, thru other gods/spirits, things such as this can be accomplished.I think it happened in spite of the woman. She was shocked at what happened. It was out of her hands.
But the fact that it DID shock her shows that she did not regularly call up spirits from the dead. Hers was a 'ministry of deceit', as they all are.
But this account, along with the appearing of Moses and Elijah, DO show us that we continue to live after our bodies die, and that it is possible, though certainly not ordinary, for the dead to appear.
Most of what we hear about today are nothing more than demonic spirits whose job it is to deceive us, ie ghosts, and 'channeling spirits', etc.

divaD
Dec 20th 2008, 07:14 PM
I think it happened in spite of the woman. She was shocked at what happened. It was out of her hands.
But the fact that it DID shock her shows that she did not regularly call up spirits from the dead. Hers was a 'ministry of deceit', as they all are.
But this account, along with the appearing of Moses and Elijah, DO show us that we continue to live after our bodies die, and that it is possible, though certainly not ordinary, for the dead to appear.
Most of what we hear about today are nothing more than demonic spirits whose job it is to deceive us, ie ghosts, and 'channeling spirits', etc.



IMO, if you look at verse 12, the reason that the woman was frightened was because she then realized that this was Saul whom was in disguise. This goes hand in hand with verse 9

1 Samuel 28:12 And when the woman saw Samuel, she cried with a loud voice: and the woman spake to Saul, saying, Why hast thou deceived me? for thou art Saul.


1 Samuel 28:9 And the woman said unto him, Behold, thou knowest what Saul hath done, how he hath cut off those that have familiar spirits, and the wizards, out of the land: wherefore then layest thou a snare for my life, to cause me to die?

Lefty
Dec 20th 2008, 08:21 PM
IMO, if you look at verse 12, the reason that the woman was frightened was because she then realized that this was Saul whom was in disguise. This goes hand in hand with verse 9

1 Samuel 28:12 And when the woman saw Samuel, she cried with a loud voice: and the woman spake to Saul, saying, Why hast thou deceived me? for thou art Saul.


1 Samuel 28:9 And the woman said unto him, Behold, thou knowest what Saul hath done, how he hath cut off those that have familiar spirits, and the wizards, out of the land: wherefore then layest thou a snare for my life, to cause me to die?

I would say you're right on that. It was discovering that the man in the room with her was Saul is what caused her to cry out, not the apparition of Samuel. This witch had a familiar spirit, and this apparition didn't seem to surprise her. Again, Matthew Henry's reasoning;
Had she believed that it was really Samuel whom she saw, she would have had more reason to be afraid of him, who was a good prophet, than of Saul, who was a wicked king.

and to address your first question if God's spirit would work through her..But to think that any good souls would come up at the beck of an evil spirit, or that God, who had denied a man the benefit of his own institutions, would suffer him to reap any real advantage by a cursed diabolical invention, was very absurd.

and his conclusion is that the apparition is a demon..That the devil, by the divine permission, should be able to personate Samuel is not strange, since he can transform himself into an angel of light! nor is it strange that he should be permitted to do it upon this occasion, that Saul might be driven to despair, by enquiring of the devil, since he would not, in a right manner, enquire of the Lord, by which he might have had comfort.

chad
Dec 20th 2008, 08:49 PM
From Wikipedia : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sheol (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sheol)


Sheol (pronounced "Sheh-ole")[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sheol#cite_note-0), in Hebrew (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hebrew_(language)) שאול (Sh'ol), is the "abode of the dead", the "underworld (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Underworld)", "the common grave of mankind" or "pit".[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sheol#cite_note-oxford-1) Sheol is the common destination of both the righteous and the unrighteous dead, as recounted in Ecclesiastes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ecclesiastes) and Job (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Job).

Sheol is sometimes compared to Hades (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hades), the gloomy, twilight afterlife (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afterlife) of Greek mythology (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_mythology). The word "hades" was in fact substituted for "sheol" when the Hebrew scriptures were translated into Greek (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_language) (see Septuagint (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Septuagint)).

The New Testament (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Testament) (written in Greek) also uses "hades" to refer to the abode of the dead.

By the second century BC, Jews (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jew) who accepted the Oral Torah (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oral_Torah) had come to believe that those in sheol awaited the resurrection either in comfort (in the bosom of Abraham (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bosom_of_Abraham)) or in torment. This belief is reflected in Jesus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus)' story of Lazarus and Dives (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lazarus_and_Dives). At that time Jews who rejected the Oral Torah believed that Sheol meant simply the grave.


I have heard modern day church teaching which states that mediums who consult the dead by familiar spirits, are actually consulting demons?

This modern day teaching tends to confuse the issue a little. Some seem to think that the medium is consulting a familiar spirit (demon), where as some believe that Samuels spirit was brought up from sheol, the abode of the dead for both the righteous and unrighteous in the OT.




Chad :rolleyes:

divaD
Dec 20th 2008, 08:58 PM
and his conclusion is that the apparition is a demon..That the devil, by the divine permission, should be able to personate
Samuel is not strange, since he can transform himself into an angel of light! nor is it strange that he should be
permitted to do it upon this occasion, that Saul might be driven to despair, by enquiring of the devil, since he would
not, in a right manner, enquire of the Lord, by which he might have had comfort.



Personally, I don't come to that conclusion, that this apparition was a demon, and not Samuel. How would this demon be able to foretell the future, then be spot on about it? I thought that demons mostly lied and deceived? Why would this assumed one be speaking truth? Also, I've read markedwards' conclusions in this thread. I would have to say that I agree with them. The text specifically states that it was Samuel. There is no indication anywhere in the text that is anyone other than Samuel's spirit.

Also while I'm thinking about it, where is bladers? I don't believe he has ever expressed his conclusions, even tho he's the one who started this thread.

Bethany67
Dec 20th 2008, 09:12 PM
I have heard modern day church teaching which states that mediums who consult the dead by familiar spirits, are actually consulting demons?

This modern day teaching tends to confuse the issue a little. Some seem to think that the medium is consulting a familiar spirit (demon), where as some believe that Samuels spirit was brought up from sheol, the abode of the dead for both the righteous and unrighteous in the OT.

As an ex-witch, I have to say I think that's right experientally. All our stuff to contact the dead wasn't really the dead (or our pet deities or local benign spirits or whatever); it was demonic. They definitely weren't what they claimed, when I perceived them with their 'masks' off. Ick.

However, in this particular case, if you hold that the summoned Samuel was a deceiving spirit rather than Samuel himself, you're reading into it something which the Biblical text doesn't actually say and which the author wouldn't have intended to his original readers. Eisegesis. I have to conclude that on this one occasion God did permit Samuel to return in order to deliver judgement. To those who say God wouldn't work His purposes through the witch, He certainly allowed Satan to attack Job in order that God be glorified.

I need to pull together some thoughts on what happened to Sheol after Christ's death and resurrection (Eph 4, 1 Pet 3), and whether that makes a difference to the witch of Endor's THEN and our NOW.

Enoch365
Dec 20th 2008, 10:37 PM
The Old and New Testaments treat witchcraft as an evil, rebellious, and loathsome practice. Those who practiced it were not tolerated. “Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live,” (Exodus 22:18).

Moses cautioned the children of Israel: “When you enter the land the Lord your God is giving you, do not learn to imitate the detestable way of the nations there. Let no one be found among you who sacrifices his son or daughter in the fire, who practices divination or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witchcraft, or casts spells, or who is a medium or spiritist or who consults the dead. Anyone who does these things is detestable to the Lord, and because of these detestable practices the Lord your God will drive those nations before you. You must be blameless before the Lord your God. The nations you will dispossess listen to those who practice sorcery or divination. But as for you, the Lord has not permitted you to do so” (Deuteronomy 18:9-14).

With respect to the evil kind Manasseh who reigned in Jerusalem fifty five years the Bible states: “He did evil in the eyes of the Lord, followed the detestable practices of the nations the Lord had driven out before the Israelites” (2 Chronicles 33:2). “He sacrificed his sons in the fire in the Valley of Ben Hinnom, practiced sorcery, divination and witchcraft, and consulted mediums and spiritists. He did much evil in the eyes of the Lord, provoking him to anger” (2 Chronicles 33:6).

When Samuel reproved King Saul, he compared rebellion to the sin of divination and arrogance like the evil of idolatry. Witchcraft includes both divination and idolatry. “For rebellion is like the sin of divination, and arrogance like the evil of idolatry. Because you have rejected the word of the Lord, he has rejected you as king” (1 Samuel 23). If Saul was rejected by God for rebellion and arrogance so will a modern day person who practices or permits himself or herself to be entertained by witchcraft and idolatry.

The Living Bible clearly addresses the fate of those who delve or as C. S. Lewis labeled “lust” for the occult: “The Lord has rejected you because you welcome foreigners from the East who practice magic and communicate with evil spirits” (Isaiah 2:6). “Crawl into the caves in the rocks and hide in terror from his glorious majesty, for the day is coming when your proud looks will be brought low; the Lord alone will be exalted. On that day the Lord of Hosts will move against the proud and haughty and bring them to dust… All the glory of mankind will bow low; the pride of men will like in the dust, and the Lord alone will be exalted. And all idols will be utterly abolished and destroyed” (Isaiah 2:10-18).

Paul in Galatians 5:19-21 ascribes witchcraft as a deed of the flesh. “Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy, drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.” It is interesting to note that Paul’s warning is to the churches of Galatia whose members are already Christians. They are warned that by engaging in sinful conduct they would not inherit the kingdom of God. The warning is to those who have accepted Christ. The modern day Christian who is entertained or allows his or her children to be entertained and/or participate in the works of the flesh, which includes witchcraft, should give serious heed to this warning.

White magic and black magic are not acceptable in Christianity and there is no such thing as “cheap grace”. Christ died on the cross to forgive us for our sins, yet there is no excuse to take sin lightly. Engaging in any sin including sorcery opens one to demonic oppression and with persistent sinful conduct possession.

One cannot rationalize that one is not engaged in witchcraft but merely being entertained by books or movies whose characters participate in witchcraft, even though the protagonists are “good” witches.

Bladers
Dec 20th 2008, 10:59 PM
Samuel 28:13 - "Then the woman said, “Whom shall I bring up for you?”
And he said, “Bring up Samuel for me.” When the woman saw Samuel, she cried out with a loud voice. And the woman spoke to Saul, saying, “Why have you deceived me? For you are Saul!”

I believe the woman's cry, the word of God referring the spirit as the real Samuel, and the prophesy he gave is the key here.

First she did not know the man she was helping was saul.
Second, the woman knew samuel.
Third, when she saw samuel she cried out. Why did she cry out? because it was the real samuel. And she knew if it was the real samuel then the person she is helping would be saul, then she turned and spoke to saul.

I believe she did not scream because she realized that was saul, but she screamed because she realized that wasn't a fimiliar spirit. But the real samuel.
My conclusion is; i believe God intervened and brought samuel, but it had nothing to do with her...

chad
Dec 20th 2008, 11:05 PM
He Bethany,

There seems to be two lines of thougt on this.

1) If you believe the witch actually contacted samuels spirit and samuel spirit did rise from the ground. (Doesnt that prove, the Witch can actually contact the real spirit of Samual, not a demon spirit pretending to be Samuel)

The spirit of Sameul also recognises Saul (vs 15) and Saul actually talks to the spirit, rather than through a medium.

(Vs14) Saul asks the woman what does he look like? Saul knew it was Samuel and he bowed down with his face on the ground.

Interesting though in vs 13. NIV says it is a spirit coming up (out of the ground). vs 14 in the JKV says I saw Gods ascending out of the earth. Possibly why the the woman cried out.


2) If you believe that It was a demon pretending to be Samuel, then saul and the witch are decieved.


Chad. :rolleyes:



As an ex-witch, I have to say I think that's right experientally. All our stuff to contact the dead wasn't really the dead (or our pet deities or local benign spirits or whatever); it was demonic. They definitely weren't what they claimed, when I perceived them with their 'masks' off. Ick.

However, in this particular case, if you hold that the summoned Samuel was a deceiving spirit rather than Samuel himself, you're reading into it something which the Biblical text doesn't actually say and which the author wouldn't have intended to his original readers. Eisegesis. I have to conclude that on this one occasion God did permit Samuel to return in order to deliver judgement. To those who say God wouldn't work His purposes through the witch, He certainly allowed Satan to attack Job in order that God be glorified.

I need to pull together some thoughts on what happened to Sheol after Christ's death and resurrection (Eph 4, 1 Pet 3), and whether that makes a difference to the witch of Endor's THEN and our NOW.

Bladers
Dec 20th 2008, 11:21 PM
He Bethany,

There seems to be two lines of thougt on this.

1) If you believe the witch actually contacted samuels spirit and samuel spirit did rise from the ground. (Doesnt that prove, the Witch can actually contact the real spirit of Samual, not a demon spirit pretending to be Samuel)

The spirit of Sameul also recognises Saul (vs 15) and Saul actually talks to the spirit, rather than through a medium.

(Vs14) Saul asks the woman what does he look like? Saul knew it was Samuel and he bowed down with his face on the ground.

Interesting though in vs 13. NIV says it is a spirit coming up (out of the ground). vs 14 in the JKV says I saw Gods ascending out of the earth. Possibly why the the woman cried out.


2) If you believe that It was a demon pretending to be Samuel, then saul and the witch are decieved.


Chad. :rolleyes:

The witch was already deceived because she is a witch, lol!

Sirus
Dec 21st 2008, 12:16 AM
Samuel 28:13 - "Then the woman said, “Whom shall I bring up for you?”
And he said, “Bring up Samuel for me.” When the woman saw Samuel, she cried out with a loud voice. And the woman spoke to Saul, saying, “Why have you deceived me? For you are Saul!”

I believe the woman's cry, the word of God referring the spirit as the real Samuel, and the prophesy he gave is the key here.

First she did not know the man she was helping was saul.
Second, the woman knew samuel.
Third, when she saw samuel she cried out. Why did she cry out? because it was the real samuel. And she knew if it was the real samuel then the person she is helping would be saul, then she turned and spoke to saul.

I believe she did not scream because she realized that was saul, but she screamed because she realized that wasn't a fimiliar spirit. But the real samuel.
My conclusion is; i believe God intervened and brought samuel, but it had nothing to do with her...I agree, which is why I was confused and still am that you asked me for scripture.

Bladers
Dec 21st 2008, 02:37 AM
I agree, which is why I was confused and still am that you asked me for scripture.

Well i asked for scripture, because if it can be supported from somewhere else in the scripture. That would be great!;)

divaD
Dec 21st 2008, 02:58 AM
I believe she did not scream because she realized that was saul, but she screamed because she realized that
wasn't a fimiliar spirit. But the real samuel.

My conclusion is that 'familiar spirit' isn't defined in the manner that you are defining it. According to the Hebrew, it means medium, one who brings up the dead, etc. And that's exactly what this woman did. And this also fits the context.

Also, it seems pretty obvious in verse 13: And the king said unto her, Be not afraid...this was in relation to this: Why hast thou deceived me? for thou art Saul.

Apparently the woman was in fear for her life. Not because of the spirit in which she saw, but because she realized that this person inquiring of her services was Saul. Sure, she made the connection to Saul when she recognized the spirit as Samuel, and that's exactly what caused her to cry out. She knew that this was Saul, and she feared for her life because of it.

karenoka27
Dec 21st 2008, 03:24 AM
I was just reading in this chapter this morning.
Personally, I think the whole issue was between God and Saul. Did Samuel rise up and speak to Saul and did the witch of Endor see him? Yes. God is not a liar and His Word is truth.

If I were a witch or called myself one for profit telling people what "I" saw, I certainly would be frightened if I ever really saw someone! yikes!

As someone mentioned, this witch did not know it was Saul,so she thought she was just pulling another leg.

Saul went there to see Samuel and somehow, God allowed for the meeting.
I found it interesting that Samuel knew what was going on in Saul's life. How is that possible unless God Himself sent Samuel?

I myself am trying to understand all of this. I would be careful,however, to not call God a liar. If His Word says that it was Samuel..I would think that it would be safe to say,....it was Samuel.
1Samuel28:15-"Samuel said to Saul, "Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?"
"I am in great distress," Saul said. "The Philistines are fighting against me, and God has turned away from me. He no longer answers me, either by prophets or by dreams. So I have called on you to tell me what to do." 16 Samuel said, "Why do you consult me, now that the LORD has turned away from you and become your enemy? 17 The LORD has done what he predicted through me. The LORD has torn the kingdom out of your hands and given it to one of your neighbors—to David. 18 Because you did not obey the LORD or carry out his fierce wrath against the Amalekites, the LORD has done this to you today. 19 The LORD will hand over both Israel and you to the Philistines, and tomorrow you and your sons will be with me. The LORD will also hand over the army of Israel to the Philistines."

divaD
Dec 21st 2008, 03:34 AM
1 Chronicles 10:13 So Saul died for his transgression which he committed against the LORD, even against the word of the LORD, which he kept not, and also for asking counsel of one that had a familiar spirit, to enquire of it;
14 And enquired not of the LORD: therefore he slew him, and turned the kingdom unto David the son of Jesse.


I would think that these verses should clear up whether God had anything directly to do with Saul inquiring of the medium in 1 Sam 28.

Prophet Daniel
Dec 21st 2008, 06:44 PM
1 Chronicles 10:13 So Saul died for his transgression which he committed against the LORD, even against the word of the LORD, which he kept not, and also for asking counsel of one that had a familiar spirit, to enquire of it;
14 And enquired not of the LORD: therefore he slew him, and turned the kingdom unto David the son of Jesse.


I would think that these verses should clear up whether God had anything directly to do with Saul inquiring of the medium in 1 Sam 28.

Well done I knew there is a scripture somewhere explaining this!
Remember God instructing the lying spirits in the case of Ahab?

Bladers
Dec 21st 2008, 07:05 PM
1 Chronicles 10:13 So Saul died for his transgression which he committed against the LORD, even against the word of the LORD, which he kept not, and also for asking counsel of one that had a familiar spirit, to enquire of it;
14 And enquired not of the LORD: therefore he slew him, and turned the kingdom unto David the son of Jesse.


I would think that these verses should clear up whether God had anything directly to do with Saul inquiring of the medium in 1 Sam 28.

Well, actually. This does not prove anything, it actually adds to my conclusion.

The verse says, he also dead because he enquired counsel from a familiar spirit. Even though it means that God had nothing to do with him going to contact the medium, It does not dismiss that he must have intervened because he still got a true & right counsel from the real samuel.

divaD
Dec 21st 2008, 08:07 PM
Well, actually. This does not prove anything, it actually adds to my conclusion.

The verse says, he also dead because he enquired counsel from a familiar spirit. Even though it means that God had nothing to do with him going to contact the medium, It does not dismiss that he must have intervened because he still got a true & right counsel from the real samuel.



bladers, in all fairness, I can see how your conclusions here could be correct. I can see the perspective that you're seeing this from, thus I can understand how you draw that conclusion. It would have to be a fact, that Samuel, could only have known what the future held for Saul, via the Lord. So in that sense, the Lord would have had to have been directly involved. But truthfully, I don't even really question this part nor really have an issue with it, The part that I'm wondering about is the how?

The question then is, or perhaps has always been, how did Samuel's spirit rise from the dead in order to speak with Saul? Via the Holy Spirit, or via an evil spirit?

Bladers
Dec 21st 2008, 08:31 PM
Via the Holy Spirit, or via an evil spirit?

Now thats the question, any one?

oneinthespirit
Dec 22nd 2008, 01:31 AM
If we take a look at this very familiar passage in the scriptures; Luke 16:31. Jesus was speaking to the pharisees, giving them a literal account of what happens after death.

Verse 26 states: ..."there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence (here) to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence (there)."

This verse tells us that after death you are sent to a resting place (according to your salvation, works at that time) til judgement day, and during that wait, you don't leave that place.

2 corinthians 11:14 states; "And no marvel: for satan himself is transformed into an angel of light." The devil has powers to deceive the very elect if it were possible.

oneinthespirit
Dec 22nd 2008, 01:48 AM
I just re-read my reply and its a little confusing.

Let me start over. Luke chapter 16 verses 19 - 31 gives a literal account of certain men who died and went to their reserved rest area. One of the men (rich man who was in hell) asked Abraham to send Lazarus ( begger) to him (vs. 25). Then Abraham basically said no because where your at, you stay (vs 26.)

Sirus
Dec 22nd 2008, 03:52 AM
Now thats the question, any one?That's in question?

Bladers
Dec 22nd 2008, 01:52 PM
That's in question?

Via the Holy Spirit, or via an evil spirit?

Bladers
Dec 22nd 2008, 01:55 PM
I just re-read my reply and its a little confusing.

Let me start over. Luke chapter 16 verses 19 - 31 gives a literal account of certain men who died and went to their reserved rest area. One of the men (rich man who was in hell) asked Abraham to send Lazarus ( begger) to him (vs. 25). Then Abraham basically said no because where your at, you stay (vs 26.)

How do you explain moses and elijah appearing to Jesus, were they demons too?

Nevertheless, the bible stated that it was samuel and that he told saul the future and it came to pass. How do you explain that?

OldChurchGuy
Dec 22nd 2008, 04:34 PM
Ecclesiastes 9:5-6
5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any [thing] that is done under the sun.

We know that scripture cannot contradict itself. Here we have the dead who don't know anything, which would seem to mean once you're dead, you are either asleep or non existant.
Then we have Samuel being called up from the grave, and the appearace of Moses and Elijah with Jesus.
So we either have to assume that one or the other is wrong, a lie, or, that our understanding is faulty.
Take a closer look at the passage above. Who is the living, and who is the dead?
The dead know nothing, have no reward, memory of them fades away, and that's it.
But we know that the living DO have a reward, in heaven, for this same Bible tells us so.
He is speaking about those who have no knowledge of God, and thus no life, no salvation, and no reward. Those, the ones who reject God and refuse to live according to His standards, ARE dead. Jude called them 'twice dead'.
Jude 1:10-13
10 But these speak evil of those things which they know not: but what they know naturally, as brute beasts, in those things they corrupt themselves.
11 Woe unto them! for they have gone in the way of Cain, and ran greedily after the error of Balaam for reward, and perished in the gainsaying of Core.
12 These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds [they are] without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots;
13 Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.
Jesus said 'Let the dead bury the dead.'

If one is to take the Ecc. passage to mean there is no consciousness, know knowledge, etc when you die, then they must ALSO take the rest of the verse in the same manner, which says they have no reward, and in so doing, consider the rest of the Word to be a lie.


Not wanting to provoke a fight, but is the first sentence stating the scripture cannot contradict itself a statement of irrefutable fact or faith?

Sincerely,

OldChurchGuy

OldChurchGuy
Dec 22nd 2008, 05:28 PM
bladers, in all fairness, I can see how your conclusions here could be correct. I can see the perspective that you're seeing this from, thus I can understand how you draw that conclusion. It would have to be a fact, that Samuel, could only have known what the future held for Saul, via the Lord. So in that sense, the Lord would have had to have been directly involved. But truthfully, I don't even really question this part nor really have an issue with it, The part that I'm wondering about is the how?

The question then is, or perhaps has always been, how did Samuel's spirit rise from the dead in order to speak with Saul? Via the Holy Spirit, or via an evil spirit?

From my perspective, it was the Holy Spirit. I base this on my understanding of Numbers 22 thru 24 where Balaam three times tries to pronounce a curse upon the Israelites but cannot. The Witch of Endor was also a tool of God without wanting / meaning to be.

OldChurchGuy

oneinthespirit
Dec 22nd 2008, 09:22 PM
How do you explain moses and elijah appearing to Jesus, were they demons too?

Nevertheless, the bible stated that it was samuel and that he told saul the future and it came to pass. How do you explain that?


hey

If you notice, Moses died in the land of Moab, And God buried him in a valley. So God at that point had control of Moses' body and spirit. The bible clearly says "but no man knoweth of his sepulchre unto this day." Deut. 34:6

And Elijah was taken by a chariot of fire, so again God had control over his body and soul/spirit.

They both were taken by God himself, and appeared unto Jesus directly by God.
In Revelation 11, it talks about the two witnesses that will come at the end times. And if you notice verse 6, it clearly describes these two wits. and the description of what can and DID do.

It says "these have powers to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have powers over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will."

During Moses' attempt to free the Hebrews, God through Moses, turned the waters into blood, and casted plagues upon the earth.
God sent a drought through Elijah and shut the heavens for 3 years until Elijah's word was spoken to rain again.

So their souls/spirits were taken from them personally to be used in the future. That explains them appearing to Jesus. The only thing that can be questioned about that particular event in the bible is, What did they conversate about?

Lefty
Dec 22nd 2008, 09:27 PM
Personally, I don't come to that conclusion, that this apparition was a demon, and not Samuel. How would this demon be able to foretell the future, then be spot on about it? I thought that demons mostly lied and deceived? Why would this assumed one be speaking truth? Also, I've read markedwards' conclusions in this thread. I would have to say that I agree with them. The text specifically states that it was Samuel. There is no indication anywhere in the text that is anyone other than Samuel's spirit.

I don't see an indication in the text that it's anyone other than Samuel's spirit either, but still I'm not convinced. And just so I don't get accused of calling God a liar by not holding to a literal interpretation again, I'll hide behind Matthew Henry again and let him take the shots. Maybe the quote of his I pulled didn't show his point of view clearly so I'll give this link here, and let anyone read his commentary who wants to. He's supposed to be a smart guy, and he's certainly presenting the view that this was a demon, not Samuel. Me, I'm not a scholar, not 100% sure, but his ideas deserve a place in this discussion.

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/henry/mhc2.ix.xxix.html

About the prediction; yes it did come true, but does it really bear the marks of the Holy Spirit? Was'nt it designed to drive him to despair? That's the mark of Satan;
III. It is cold comfort which this evil spirit in Samuel's mantle gives to Saul, and is manifestly intended to drive him to despair and self-murder. Had it been the true Samuel, when Saul desired to be told what he should do he would have told him to repent and make his peace with God, and recall David from his banishment, and would then have told him that he might hope in this way to find mercy with God; but, instead of that, he represents his case as helpless and hopeless, serving him as he did Judas, to whom he was first a tempter and then a tormentor, persuading him first to sell his master and then to hang himself.

We know how Saul died. Was it really different than Judas?

divaD
Dec 22nd 2008, 11:32 PM
I don't see an indication in the text that it's anyone other than Samuel's spirit either, but still I'm not convinced. And just so I don't get accused of calling God a liar by not holding to a literal interpretation again, I'll hide behind Matthew Henry again and let him take the shots. Maybe the quote of his I pulled didn't show his point of view clearly so I'll give this link here, and let anyone read his commentary who wants to. He's supposed to be a smart guy, and he's certainly presenting the view that this was a demon, not Samuel. Me, I'm not a scholar, not 100% sure, but his ideas deserve a place in this discussion.

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/henry/mhc2.ix.xxix.html

About the prediction; yes it did come true, but does it really bear the marks of the Holy Spirit? Was'nt it designed to drive him to despair? That's the mark of Satan;
III. It is cold comfort which this evil spirit in Samuel's mantle gives to Saul, and is manifestly intended to drive him to despair and self-murder. Had it been the true Samuel, when Saul desired to be told what he should do he would have told him to repent and make his peace with God, and recall David from his banishment, and would then have told him that he might hope in this way to find mercy with God; but, instead of that, he represents his case as helpless and hopeless, serving him as he did Judas, to whom he was first a tempter and then a tormentor, persuading him first to sell his master and then to hang himself.

We know how Saul died. Was it really different than Judas?


Leviticus 20:27 A man also or woman that hath a familiar spirit, or that is a wizard, shall surely be put to death: they shall stone them with stones: their blood shall be upon them


This is what Leviticus has to say about the matter. With that in mind, it seems unreasonable to conclude that the Holy Spirit worked thru the woman in 1 Sam 28 in order to raise Samuel's spirit.

Apparently this wasn't a minor matter back then. If these folks couldn't really make contact with the dead, then why was their punishment so great?

And we have to look at this from Samuel's perspective. If his spirit had been awken by the woman medium, what was Samuel supposed to do when confronted with Saul? Lie to him? This still doesn't mean that God initially had anything to do with the raising of Samuel's spirit, but that doesn't mean that He couldn't have used that opportunity to relay a
msg to Saul thru Samuel. As we can see, the msg was not good, but it was indeed true.

Bladers
Dec 23rd 2008, 12:22 AM
hey

If you notice, Moses died in the land of Moab, And God buried him in a valley. So God at that point had control of Moses' body and spirit. The bible clearly says "but no man knoweth of his sepulchre unto this day." Deut. 34:6

And Elijah was taken by a chariot of fire, so again God had control over his body and soul/spirit.

They both were taken by God himself, and appeared unto Jesus directly by God.
In Revelation 11, it talks about the two witnesses that will come at the end times. And if you notice verse 6, it clearly describes these two wits. and the description of what can and DID do.

It says "these have powers to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have powers over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will."

During Moses' attempt to free the Hebrews, God through Moses, turned the waters into blood, and casted plagues upon the earth.
God sent a drought through Elijah and shut the heavens for 3 years until Elijah's word was spoken to rain again.

So their souls/spirits were taken from them personally to be used in the future. That explains them appearing to Jesus. The only thing that can be questioned about that particular event in the bible is, What did they conversate about?

So basically, what is your conclusion?

oneinthespirit
Dec 23rd 2008, 03:17 AM
So basically, what is your conclusion?

My conclusion friend, is that Moses and Elijahs' spirits were taken by God, so God therefore could use them when ever and however he wants (note: John the Baptist, which had the spirit of Elijah. Matt. 17:12, 13.). they were not demons.

And the Samuel that Saul saw was just a counterfiet of him. Read that passage again, and ask the Holy Spirit to help you understand, cause obviously our help is'nt helping you understand.

But you can ask more questions, and whoever knows the answers will help.

Zack702
Dec 24th 2008, 09:27 AM
I would say rather Samuel's spirit was contacted by Saul's or perhaps even a angel of the Lord which caused the event.

It is interesting that the woman saw Samuel.

Saul said contact Samuel to the woman.
The woman saw what she thought was a god comming out of the earth.
Saul is revealed to her and he asks the woman to describe what she sees.
She said she sees a old man with a mantle and she thought it was a god.
Then Saul stoops down and channels words in the voice of Samuel.

Seams to me that both of them are recieving a vision from God but Saul was the one who was expecting it.

oneinthespirit
Dec 24th 2008, 09:44 PM
samuel was a prophet. The bible says that God did not answer Saul at all. Not even through dreams, visions, nor PROPHETS, so if God did'nt answer him through live prophets why would he answer him through dead prophets?