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reformedct
Dec 19th 2008, 05:17 PM
i have noticed there are a couple of people on here who believe that a true Christian never sins. I am not here to mock you or say IM RIGHT YOURE WRONG. However i would like to see how you view this passage in phillipians 3:

12 Not that I have already obtained this or am already perfect, but I press on to make it my own, because Christ Jesus has made me his own. 13 Brothers, I do not consider that I have made it my own. But one thing I do: forgetting what lies behind and straining forward to what lies ahead, 14 I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.

it seems to me that straining forward indicates work, but if Paul never sins why must he strain? If a true christian never sins, why must they "work out" their salvation with fear and trembling? if i will never sin, what is there to fear?

also what is he reffering to when he says he is not perfect?
ive heard i guy who said we cannot sin say: its not that we are tempted to sin and give in, it's that we cannot be tempted because we are born of God. However Paul clearly says he is not perfect in some fashion. Is it in obedience? is it in the state of his humanity, where sin in is present in his members? please help me out here

please dont see this as a mocking of your beliefs i am trying to respectfully understand your theology

Yukerboy
Dec 19th 2008, 11:26 PM
i would like to see how you view this passage in phillipians 3:

12 Not that I have already obtained this or am already perfect, but I press on to make it my own, because Christ Jesus has made me his own. 13 Brothers, I do not consider that I have made it my own. But one thing I do: forgetting what lies behind and straining forward to what lies ahead, 14 I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.


I consider them rubbish, that I may gain Christ 9and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ—the righteousness that comes from God and is by faith. 10I want to know Christ and the power of his resurrection and the fellowship of sharing in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, 11and so, somehow, to attain to the resurrection from the dead.

Let's look at the previous verses and see what Paul says he hasn't already obtained.

1. He hasn't obtained Christ.
2. He hasn't obtained righteousness that comes from God by faith.
3. He hasn't obtained knowledge of Christ
4. He hasn't obtained knowledge of the power of Christ's resurrection.
5. He hasn't obtained fellowship of sharing in Christ's sufferings
6. He hasn't obtained becoming like Christ in his death.
7. He hasn't obtained to be part of the resurrection of the dead.

Has Paul already obtained these things above? The verses point to no, but I say yes.

Paul states later in the same chapter that "All of us who are mature should take such a view of things. And if on some point you think differently, that too God will make clear to you."

I beleive that Paul is saying that even though we have obtained all those things, we should live like we haven't. Thus, in thinking that we should think differently, because we KNOW differently, God makes it clear to us that we have obtained these things.


if Paul never sins why must he strain? If a true christian never sins, why must they "work out" their salvation with fear and trembling? if i will never sin, what is there to fear?

True Christians and False Christians must live as though they have not obtained these things. This is to make your election sure, with fear and trembling.

Working out your salvation with fear and trembling is to make your election sure. To come to the knowledge that you are one who is born again. This is because only those who persevere to the end are born again. Others BELIEVE they are born again, and will find they were not.


ive heard i guy who said we cannot sin say: its not that we are tempted to sin and give in, it's that we cannot be tempted because we are born of God.

His name was John. Let me show you.

Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.

John could have said should not (meaning permission), but no, he said cannot (meaning inability).


However Paul clearly says he is not perfect in some fashion. Is it in obedience? is it in the state of his humanity, where sin in is present in his members?

It is definitely in the state of his humanity. For Paul even says that it is no longer he who sins, but the sin living within his flesh that does it.

And no, I don't feel you are mocking my beliefs and appreciate the chance to go more in depth. :)

Yuke

Walstib
Dec 20th 2008, 03:20 AM
A question I think sometimes, to throw into the discussion.

If you put something imperfect into something perfect it does not remain perfect.

If Jesus is perfect, and we are in Jesus, should that part of us in Jesus not then be perfect?

Him we preach, warning every man and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus. (Col1:28 NKJV)

to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect, (Heb 12:23 NKJV)

For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified. (Heb 10:14 NKJV)

What do these verses mean? Reading the whole passages of course. Not trying to teach something, honestly curious how others harmonize and understand them.

Peace,
Joe

JesusMySavior
Dec 20th 2008, 03:26 AM
In 1 John it says that a real Christian doesn't sin.

If that were true as we perceive it in english, we wouldn't need a Savior.

What John meant I believe is that we are no longer bound by sin and bound by the world. The enemy has no hold on us any longer. We are not in bondage to sin.

Jesus is our redemption! Amen! May we never boast in our own righteousness!

Yukerboy
Dec 20th 2008, 04:57 AM
In 1 John it says that a real Christian doesn't sin.

If that were true as we perceive it in english, we wouldn't need a Savior.


John is not saying a real Christian hasn't sinned. All have sinned and come short of the glory of God.

John is saying that after a person beomes born again, he cannot sin.

RogerW
Dec 20th 2008, 04:58 AM
I consider them rubbish, that I may gain Christ 9and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ—the righteousness that comes from God and is by faith. 10I want to know Christ and the power of his resurrection and the fellowship of sharing in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, 11and so, somehow, to attain to the resurrection from the dead.

Let's look at the previous verses and see what Paul says he hasn't already obtained.

1. He hasn't obtained Christ.
2. He hasn't obtained righteousness that comes from God by faith.
3. He hasn't obtained knowledge of Christ
4. He hasn't obtained knowledge of the power of Christ's resurrection.
5. He hasn't obtained fellowship of sharing in Christ's sufferings
6. He hasn't obtained becoming like Christ in his death.
7. He hasn't obtained to be part of the resurrection of the dead.

Has Paul already obtained these things above? The verses point to no, but I say yes.

Paul states later in the same chapter that "All of us who are mature should take such a view of things. And if on some point you think differently, that too God will make clear to you."


I beleive that Paul is saying that even though we have obtained all those things, we should live like we haven't. Thus, in thinking that we should think differently, because we KNOW differently, God makes it clear to us that we have obtained these things.

True Christians and False Christians must live as though they have not obtained these things. This is to make your election sure, with fear and trembling.

Hi Yuke,

Looking at the passage in Philippians in greater context aids in understanding what Paul is teaching us.

Beginning here in vs 4 Paul uses himself to illustrate a point; 'If there is any value in our family ties, ceremonies, religious works and performances, outward obedience to the law and rites, I have more room to boast than any of these false teachers.'

Php 3:4 Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more:

Paul was circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Pharisee, persecuted the church, and with respect to the observance of the outward law, blameless.

Php 3:5 Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;
Php 3:6 Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.

At one time Paul felt that all these things were necessary for acceptance with God, were necessary for righteousness and entitled him to the favor of God. When God revealed Christ to him, he saw all these things to be worthless. Christ is our sacrifice, our sanctification and our righteousness. He is the fulfillment of all these. That which was once everything to Paul became nothing; Christ became everthing (Col 3:11).

Php 3:7 But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.

Paul counted everything as loss compared to the priceless privilege of knowing Christ Jesus as Lord. For His sake Paul lost everything in order that he may have Christ, the Redeemer.

1. Paul renounced not only the Jewish ceremonies, but worldly honor, reputation, substance, comforts and advantages.
2. He lost self-righteousness and gained Christ's righteousness.
3. He lost ceremonial bondage and gained freedom in Christ.
4. He lost false peace and gained true peace with God.
5. He lost pretended glory and gained eternal glory (1Co 1:30,31).

Php 3:8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,

Paul had one determined purpose, one desire, and sincere hope, which is threefold:

1. That he may win Christ and be found in Him, not trusting or having any self-achieved righteousness in works and deeds, but possessing genuine righteousness of God which comes through faith of Christ...holiness and perfect righteousness which Christ gives His own (Col 1:22)

2. That he may really know Him. He did know Him, but he wanted to become more deeply and intimately acquainted with Him and His person; that he may come to know the power of His resurrection and the strength it gives to believers; that he may know and share Christ's sufferings as to be transformed continually into His likeness, dying daily to sin and self.

3. That he might attain unto the resurrection of the dead. Paul may be referring here to the resurrection of the body in the likeness of Christ in the great Day of the Lord. However (because of the next verse), I believe he is talking about a moral and spiritual resurrection that lifts us out of the death and darkness of the world and sin. The world, the flesh and all of this human life and death. In Christ there is real life, real love, real holiness. There is communion with God and perfect righteousness. That is what Paul wanted, by whatever means it pleased for God to bring him to that place, he wanted to be like Christ in attitude, spirit and heart.

Php 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
Php 3:10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;
Php 3:11 If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.

Clearly, from this passage Paul had not attained to perfect holiness, perfect knowledge, nor perfect happiness. Though sanctification is perfect in Christ, it was not yet perfected in Paul. We know in part, sin dwells in us, our faith is imperfect, but like Paul, we press on. Paul longed to lay hold of that for which Christ laid hold of him. Paul wanted what the Lord purposed and purchased for him on Calvary...to be like Him (Eph 1:3-6).

Php 3:12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.

Paul does not claim to have arrived at perfection in doctrine, spirit, nor deed. He was not yet all that Christ would have him to be. He was not yet what he wanted to be, not even all that he ought to be. However he was not what he used to be. He says I forget what lies behind me - my struggles and attempts to be self-righteous, my experiences and revelations in spiritual infancy, my works and labors since conversion, and my recent growth and revelations.

Now Paul reaches for present and future blessings and revelations of His grace. The illustration is taken from runners in a race, who do not stop to look behind them to see how far they have come nor to determine how far they are in front of others, but they are concerned for what they are doing now and for what lies ahead.

Php 3:13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,

Paul's goal, and our goal is to finish the race and obtain the heavenly prize, the incorruptible crown of life, righteousness, and glory! (Ps 17:15) We look to Christ (Heb 12:1,2). We follow and depend on Christ (1Jo 3:1-3).

Php 3:14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.

Let all who are spiritually mature (who are taught of God) have this same mind and hold these same convictions:

1. To count all heritage, ceremony, tradition and works of religion as rubbish that we may win Christ and be found in Him.
2. To be willing to suffer the loss of all things for a knowledge of Christ.
3. To disclaim perfection in ourselves, but to aim for it.
4. To desire to be found in Him, having His righteousness.
5. To desire above all things to be like Christ and press forward in perseverance to attain the incorruptible crown.

Php 3:15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.

Nevertheless, whatever degree of the knowledge of Christ and the truth of the gospel and the light we have received, let us walk therein! As we walk in the light God gives us, He will give us more light. Spiritual growth may be slow, even discouraging. Sometimes we feel like we're standing still. But God has revealed Christ in us, and we know in whom we have believed. So we hold fast to this until God reveals more of Himself, and we are made perfect at His coming.

Php 3:16 Nevertheless, whereto we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us mind the same thing.

We are not complete or perfect yet, but He will complete and perfect what He has begun in us, and so we wait patiently until he changes our vile, sinful bodies of death into the glory and majesty of His own body (1Co 15:51-55).

Many Blessings,
RW

SIG
Dec 20th 2008, 05:25 AM
John is not saying a real Christian hasn't sinned. All have sinned and come short of the glory of God.

John is saying that after a person beomes born again, he cannot sin.

I've met a lot of born-again believers, but I've never met one who cannot sin.

Yukerboy
Dec 20th 2008, 05:32 AM
Hi Yuke,

Looking at the passage in Philippians in greater context aids in understanding what Paul is teaching us.

Beginning here in vs 4 Paul uses himself to illustrate a point; 'If there is any value in our family ties, ceremonies, religious works and performances, outward obedience to the law and rites, I have more room to boast than any of these false teachers.'

Php 3:4 Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more:

Paul was circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Pharisee, persecuted the church, and with respect to the observance of the outward law, blameless.

Php 3:5 Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;
Php 3:6 Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.

At one time Paul felt that all these things were necessary for acceptance with God, were necessary for righteousness and entitled him to the favor of God. When God revealed Christ to him, he saw all these things to be worthless. Christ is our sacrifice, our sanctification and our righteousness. He is the fulfillment of all these. That which was once everything to Paul became nothing; Christ became everthing (Col 3:11).

Php 3:7 But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.

Paul counted everything as loss compared to the priceless privilege of knowing Christ Jesus as Lord. For His sake Paul lost everything in order that he may have Christ, the Redeemer.

1. Paul renounced not only the Jewish ceremonies, but worldly honor, reputation, substance, comforts and advantages.
2. He lost self-righteousness and gained Christ's righteousness.
3. He lost ceremonial bondage and gained freedom in Christ.
4. He lost false peace and gained true peace with God.
5. He lost pretended glory and gained eternal glory (1Co 1:30,31).

Php 3:8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,

Paul had one determined purpose, one desire, and sincere hope, which is threefold:

1. That he may win Christ and be found in Him, not trusting or having any self-achieved righteousness in works and deeds, but possessing genuine righteousness of God which comes through faith of Christ...holiness and perfect righteousness which Christ gives His own (Col 1:22)

2. That he may really know Him. He did know Him, but he wanted to become more deeply and intimately acquainted with Him and His person; that he may come to know the power of His resurrection and the strength it gives to believers; that he may know and share Christ's sufferings as to be transformed continually into His likeness, dying daily to sin and self.

3. That he might attain unto the resurrection of the dead. Paul may be referring here to the resurrection of the body in the likeness of Christ in the great Day of the Lord. However (because of the next verse), I believe he is talking about a moral and spiritual resurrection that lifts us out of the death and darkness of the world and sin. The world, the flesh and all of this human life and death. In Christ there is real life, real love, real holiness. There is communion with God and perfect righteousness. That is what Paul wanted, by whatever means it pleased for God to bring him to that place, he wanted to be like Christ in attitude, spirit and heart.

Php 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
Php 3:10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;
Php 3:11 If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.

Clearly, from this passage Paul had not attained to perfect holiness, perfect knowledge, nor perfect happiness. Though sanctification is perfect in Christ, it was not yet perfected in Paul. We know in part, sin dwells in us, our faith is imperfect, but like Paul, we press on. Paul longed to lay hold of that for which Christ laid hold of him. Paul wanted what the Lord purposed and purchased for him on Calvary...to be like Him (Eph 1:3-6).

Php 3:12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.

All of this, I can agree with.


Clearly, from this passage Paul had not attained to perfect holiness, perfect knowledge, nor perfect happiness. Though sanctification is perfect in Christ, it was not yet perfected in Paul. We know in part, sin dwells in us, our faith is imperfect, but like Paul, we press on. Paul longed to lay hold of that for which Christ laid hold of him. Paul wanted what the Lord purposed and purchased for him on Calvary...to be like Him (Eph 1:3-6).

Php 3:12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.

Paul doesn't mention perfect attainment. He is saying he has not attained the items in the previous passage. The fact is, he had attained it, but he said this as though this is how a Christian ought to think in order to persevere and make their election sure.

When all things are permissible, then in all things you can do no sin. Though not that all things are profitable and worthy of rewards.


Let all who are spiritually mature (who are taught of God) have this same mind and hold these same convictions:

1. To count all heritage, ceremony, tradition and works of religion as rubbish that we may win Christ and be found in Him.
2. To be willing to suffer the loss of all things for a knowledge of Christ.
3. To disclaim perfection in ourselves, but to aim for it.
4. To desire to be found in Him, having His righteousness.
5. To desire above all things to be like Christ and press forward in perseverance to attain the incorruptible crown.

Php 3:15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.

Be of this mind, but do not be convicted of this. For you as a Christian:

1. Won Christ
2. Suffered loss for knowledge of Christ
3. Have attained perfection through God abiding in you, though your flesh is corrupt.
4. Have been made righteous.
5. Are Christ like
5 and 1/2. Will persevere.


Nevertheless, whatever degree of the knowledge of Christ and the truth of the gospel and the light we have received, let us walk therein! As we walk in the light God gives us, He will give us more light. Spiritual growth may be slow, even discouraging. Sometimes we feel like we're standing still. But God has revealed Christ in us, and we know in whom we have believed. So we hold fast to this until God reveals more of Himself, and we are made perfect at His coming.

Php 3:16 Nevertheless, whereto we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us mind the same thing.

We are not complete or perfect yet, but He will complete and perfect what He has begun in us, and so we wait patiently until he changes our vile, sinful bodies of death into the glory and majesty of His own body (1Co 15:51-55).

Again, agreed.

Yukerboy
Dec 20th 2008, 05:36 AM
I've met a lot of born-again believers, but I've never met one who cannot sin.

If you are correct, then John has lied. If you are correct, then I need to rip John, 1 John, 2 John, 3 John, and Revelation out of my Bible, for they would not be God inspired.

Think of these things:

1. What is sin?
2. Are those who are born again under law or under grace?
3. Is everything permissible to those who are born again?
4. Is your flesh made perfect when you become saved?

Yuke

crossnote
Dec 20th 2008, 06:08 AM
It seems to me we gravitate to one pole or the other.
For example when it comes to the two natures of Christ, some errorists will say 'Jesus was simply human' and bring out their scriptural artillary. Similarly, others will argue 'Jesus is God'. Both are half rightr and I think the same applies here.
I would argue that we are sanctified and holy by the blood of Christ and yet simultaneously we are sinners. And even though as Christians we are sinners and do sin, God sees us robed in Christ's sinless righteousness. Even our best works are tainted with enough sin that apart from Christ's righteousness continual covering we would be French toast...or English muffins.

markedward
Dec 20th 2008, 06:16 AM
If you are correct, then John has lied.Or it could be that you're just misinterpreting what John was trying to say.

1 John 1:8 If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

1 John 1:10 If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

Who are these written to? Not non-Christians. These words were written to Christians. Yet John directly states that if "we" (that is, Christians) "say we have no sin" we are liars and God's truth is not in us.

1 John 2:1-2 My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.

Again, John is writing to Christians. And here he says he is "writing these things to you" (Christians) "so that you" (Christians) "may not sin". And then John plainly says that if "anyone" (Christians) "do sin" that Jesus Christ is our advocate to God, and "not for our [sins] only but also for the sins of the whole world". The context is clear; John repeatedly indicates he is speaking about Christians, and he plainly says that they can and will sin, but that Christ will be their advocate to the Father.

Romans 7:14-24 Yukerboy, read this. If you think that a Christian is absolutely incapable of sinning, then you need to tear Romans out of your Bible, or else change your interpretation of 1 John. In Romans 7:14-24, Paul writes two paragraphs about how, even though he is saved, he is still a sinner, but that Christ saves him from his sins.

I read some commentaries, and they point out that John was using the present-progressive tense in 1 John 3. The present-progressive verb tense indicates and ongoing action. He was not saying that "Christians cannot sin". It would be more accurate to interpret 1 John 3 as saying that Christians cannot sin ongoingly - as in, that they cannot live in their sins. A person cannot be a Christian and live in a state of ongoing sin. That is what the original Greek seems to be saying in 1 John 3.

John outright says that Christians are capable of sinning - and do sin - in 1 John 1:8-10 and 1 John 2:1-2. What he says is that Christians cannot ongoingly sin. Meaning, a person who commits to Christ can still "stumble" (James 3:2), but that they cannot live a sinful lifestyle and claim to be devoted to Christ. A drunkard can't remain a drunkard if they are a Christian. A gay can't remain a gay if they are a Christian. An adulterer can't remain an adulterer if they are a Christian. But Paul, John, and James all say that a Christian can and do sin. But they also all say that a Christian can't live in their sins.

Christ's blood covers us if we live in Him. Meaning, Christians can and will and do sin, but Christ's blood covers us from our sins. But if we live in sin, Christ's blood doesn't cover us, because we are devoted to our sins, not Him. As Christ said, a person cannot serve two masters; if a person serves their sin, they are living in their sin and are a liar and "no truth is found in him". But if a person serves Christ, they are not living in sin (though they can and will and do sin), but they are covered by Christ's blood.

Yukerboy
Dec 20th 2008, 07:19 AM
Or it could be that you're just misinterpreting what John was trying to say.

1 John 1:8 If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

1 John 1:10 If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

Who are these written to? Not non-Christians. These words were written to Christians. Yet John directly states that if "we" (that is, Christians) "say we have no sin" we are liars and God's truth is not in us.


Which shows you have misinterpreted what I am trying to say. We have sin. It abides in our flesh. We have sinned, not only us, but all have sinned. I do not deny these concepts.

Nor will I deny that whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Will you?


1 John 2:1-2 My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.

Again, John is writing to Christians. And here he says he is "writing these things to you" (Christians) "so that you" (Christians) "may not sin". And then John plainly says that if "anyone" (Christians) "do sin" that Jesus Christ is our advocate to God, and "not for our [sins] only but also for the sins of the whole world". The context is clear; John repeatedly indicates he is speaking about Christians, and he plainly says that they can and will sin, but that Christ will be their advocate to the Father.

The you say that John contradicts John. I cannot.

John writes these to the little children so that they may not sin. He then goes on to state that they cannot sin. Then he says if anyone (anyone, not Christians) sin, that we (Christians) have an advocate. He is the propitiation for our sins and for anyones sins (the whole world).


Romans 7:14-24 Yukerboy, read this. If you think that a Christian is absolutely incapable of sinning, then you need to tear Romans out of your Bible, or else change your interpretation of 1 John. In Romans 7:14-24, Paul writes two paragraphs about how, even though he is saved, he is still a sinner, but that Christ saves him from his sins.


Let us look then.

20Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

Paul is telling you here why John is right. Paul is CONFIRMING John's charge that the Christian cannot sin.

If I do (sin) that I would not (sin), it is no more I that do it (sin), but sin that dwelleth in me (that commits sin).


But if we live in sin, Christ's blood doesn't cover us, because we are devoted to our sins, not Him. As Christ said, a person cannot serve two masters; if a person serves their sin, they are living in their sin and are a liar and "no truth is found in him". But if a person serves Christ, they are not living in sin (though they can and will and do sin), but they are covered by Christ's blood.

Except for the parenthetical stating against the word of God through John that a Christian can sin, I agree with the above statements and have never denied any of the concepts therein.

Sirus
Dec 20th 2008, 07:32 AM
This is actually very simple.

Anyone that says they, in their essence (nature), cannot sin is a liar. However, he that is born of God, that is the one that is IN CHRIST, that is in position, the one dead because of their crucifixion cannot sin. A dead man cannot sin!!! We are dead in Christ, by faith. It's by faith. We can't see it and we are not supposed to see it, we are only asked to believe it and walk in what Christ has given us!

Their are two Greek words used in Philippians 3 for 'perfect'.
The first is found in v12 and is teleioō which means to complete, that is, (literally) accomplish, or (figuratively) consummate (in character): - consecrate, finish, fulfil, (make) perfect.

Phi 3:10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;
Phi 3:11 If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.
Phi 3:12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.



The second is found in v15 (why do people only mention v12?) and is teleios which means complete (in various applications of labor, growth, mental and moral character, etc.); neuter (as noun, with G3588) completeness: - of full age, man, perfect.

Phi 3:13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,
Phi 3:14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.
Phi 3:15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.
Phi 3:16 Nevertheless, whereto we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us mind the same thing.
Phi 3:17 Brethren, be followers together of me, and mark them which walk so as ye have us for an example.
Phi 3:18 (For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ:
Phi 3:19 Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.)
Phi 3:20 For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ:



The first 'perfect' (absolute) Paul rightly prescribes to the resurrection. The second 'perfect' (mature) he rightly prescribes to our walk and something we already have already attained. It's in our possession!
Though we walk IN (not after) the flesh (2Cor 10:3) we WAR AFTER (along) the spirit. Read that ten times to be sure you get it!

So what is the rule we walk by (v16)? Where else is this language used? What rule? Christians have a rule to walk by? Yep!

Gal 6:13 For neither they themselves who are circumcised keep the law; but desire to have you circumcised, that they may glory in your flesh.
Gal 6:14 But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world.
Gal 6:15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.
Gal 6:16 And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.

We are also told
Col 2:6 As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him:
Col 2:7 Rooted and built up in him, and established in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving.
............
Col 2:11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
Col 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

A christian can sin anytime they want to but they don't have to....ever....because with every temptation God has made a way of escape and it's called the Cross of Christ wherein is their crucifixion with Christ. A dead man cannot sin. A man living after (along) the flesh can. When we believe in THE WAY (of escape) the truth and the life we bring our position (dead) into our experience (flesh alive) and sin not. This is why Paul said the preaching of the cross is foolishness to the world but to them that are saved it is the power of God!

BY FAITH!!!
This, is the whole gospel. Not just the half that is being forgiven. This is freedom! Abundant life!

RogerW
Dec 20th 2008, 05:21 PM
This is actually very simple.

Anyone that says they, in their essence (nature), cannot sin is a liar. However, he that is born of God, that is the one that is IN CHRIST, that is in position, the one dead because of their crucifixion cannot sin. A dead man cannot sin!!! We are dead in Christ, by faith. It's by faith. We can't see it and we are not supposed to see it, we are only asked to believe it and walk in what Christ has given us!

Their are two Greek words used in Philippians 3 for 'perfect'.
The first is found in v12 and is teleioō which means to complete, that is, (literally) accomplish, or (figuratively) consummate (in character): - consecrate, finish, fulfil, (make) perfect.

Phi 3:10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;
Phi 3:11 If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.
Phi 3:12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.



The second is found in v15 (why do people only mention v12?) and is teleios which means complete (in various applications of labor, growth, mental and moral character, etc.); neuter (as noun, with G3588) completeness: - of full age, man, perfect.

Phi 3:13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,
Phi 3:14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.
Phi 3:15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.
Phi 3:16 Nevertheless, whereto we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us mind the same thing.
Phi 3:17 Brethren, be followers together of me, and mark them which walk so as ye have us for an example.
Phi 3:18 (For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ:
Phi 3:19 Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.)
Phi 3:20 For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ:



The first 'perfect' (absolute) Paul rightly prescribes to the resurrection. The second 'perfect' (mature) he rightly prescribes to our walk and something we already have already attained. It's in our possession!
Though we walk IN (not after) the flesh (2Cor 10:3) we WAR AFTER (along) the spirit. Read that ten times to be sure you get it!

So what is the rule we walk by (v16)? Where else is this language used? What rule? Christians have a rule to walk by? Yep!

Gal 6:13 For neither they themselves who are circumcised keep the law; but desire to have you circumcised, that they may glory in your flesh.
Gal 6:14 But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world.
Gal 6:15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.
Gal 6:16 And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.

We are also told
Col 2:6 As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him:
Col 2:7 Rooted and built up in him, and established in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving.
............
Col 2:11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
Col 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

A christian can sin anytime they want to but they don't have to....ever....because with every temptation God has made a way of escape and it's called the Cross of Christ wherein is their crucifixion with Christ. A dead man cannot sin. A man living after (along) the flesh can. When we believe in THE WAY (of escape) the truth and the life we bring our position (dead) into our experience (flesh alive) and sin not. This is why Paul said the preaching of the cross is foolishness to the world but to them that are saved it is the power of God!

BY FAITH!!!
This, is the whole gospel. Not just the half that is being forgiven. This is freedom! Abundant life!

Greetings Sirus,

It really is actually very simple! Excellent understanding, thank you. When we walk in the Spirit of God we will not fulfill the lust of the flesh. If we are alive in the Spirit, we either choose to walk in His Spirit living in us, or we choose to fulfill the lust of the flesh. We don't have to choose the flesh because His Spirit gives us the power to deny the flesh.

Ga 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
Ga 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

Ga 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
Ga 5:25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

When we choose to walk in the Spirit we cannot sin, but when we are weak and walk in the flesh it is because we are engaged in a spiritual battle; Spirit against the flesh, and we cannot do the things that we should do according to the Spirit. This is why we are warned to put off the flesh, to crucify the flesh, to deny the flesh, to kill the flesh, to mortify the things of the earth that reside in our sinful flesh. For if we continue to live according to our sinful flesh, we will die. But there is no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Many Blessings,
RW

Bethany67
Dec 20th 2008, 05:37 PM
Yuke - have you ever met a sinless Christian?

drew
Dec 20th 2008, 05:37 PM
Romans 7:14-24 Yukerboy, read this. If you think that a Christian is absolutely incapable of sinning, then you need to tear Romans out of your Bible, or else change your interpretation of 1 John. In Romans 7:14-24, Paul writes two paragraphs about how, even though he is saved, he is still a sinner, but that Christ saves him from his sins.
The person in Romans 7 cannot possibly be a Christian - Paul is describing the state of the Jew under the Torah (using the "I" as a literary device to identify himself (a Jew) with the people whom he has such sympathy for.

Romans 7 does not deal with the experiences of the believer. It is Paul's reflection on the plight of the Jew under Torah, analyzed from his perspective as a Christian.

Would the Christian say this about his experience as a Christian:

Once I was alive apart from law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died. 10I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life actually brought death

Of course not. Paul is looking back here to the time when the advent of the Law - the Torah - brought judgement and death. This is true of the Jew under Torah, not the Christian.

Would the Christian say this about his experience as a Christian:

But in order that sin might be recognized as sin, it produced death in me through what was good, so that through the commandment sin might become utterly sinful

Sin produces death in the Christian? Sin becomes utterly sinful in the Christian? Of course not.

Please do not misunderstand Romans 7. It is not a transcript of Christian experience, for the alleged "elect" or otherwise. It is what Paul knows to be the case about the plight of the Jew under Torah, as seen from Paul's present state - that of a redeemed saint.

Joe King
Dec 20th 2008, 05:43 PM
In 1 John it says that a real Christian doesn't sin.

If that were true as we perceive it in english, we wouldn't need a Savior.

What John meant I believe is that we are no longer bound by sin and bound by the world. The enemy has no hold on us any longer. We are not in bondage to sin.

Jesus is our redemption! Amen! May we never boast in our own righteousness!

Amen. That's what I believe as well.

Yukerboy
Dec 20th 2008, 07:08 PM
Yuke - have you ever met a sinless Christian?

No, every Christian I have met is still in the flesh and have sin abiding in that flesh.

However, it was impossible for any Christian I met to sin. God has made them righteous.

Bethany67
Dec 20th 2008, 07:12 PM
I must've spent too long on here today and got myself boggle-minded, because I'm not understanding what you're saying. Help me out here. Is it impossible for you to sin and does your life bear that out? Do you ever sin?

reformedct
Dec 20th 2008, 07:13 PM
i think what yuker is getting at is that Christians, in their spirit nature, cannot sin, but sin dwells in their flesh, so like Paul says, it wasn't him who was doing wrong, but sin that dwelled in his members. But the spirit within a christian cannot sin. Is this true?

Yukerboy
Dec 20th 2008, 07:14 PM
The person in Romans 7 cannot possibly be a Christian - Paul is describing the state of the Jew under the Torah (using the "I" as a literary device to identify himself (a Jew) with the people whom he has such sympathy for.

Romans 7 does not deal with the experiences of the believer. It is Paul's reflection on the plight of the Jew under Torah, analyzed from his perspective as a Christian.

Would the Christian say this about his experience as a Christian:

Once I was alive apart from law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died. 10I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life actually brought death

Of course not. Paul is looking back here to the time when the advent of the Law - the Torah - brought judgement and death. This is true of the Jew under Torah, not the Christian.

Would the Christian say this about his experience as a Christian:

But in order that sin might be recognized as sin, it produced death in me through what was good, so that through the commandment sin might become utterly sinful

Sin produces death in the Christian? Sin becomes utterly sinful in the Christian? Of course not.

Please do not misunderstand Romans 7. It is not a transcript of Christian experience, for the alleged "elect" or otherwise. It is what Paul knows to be the case about the plight of the Jew under Torah, as seen from Paul's present state - that of a redeemed saint.

The law is the power of sin. The sting of sin is death. The law was added so that trespasses (sin) would increase.

Sin produces death in all people (Christians and non), however, Christians have conquered death through their faith in Jesus Christ.

When Paul says that it is no longer he who sins, but the sin that lives within his flesh that does it, he knew it would be a difficult concept. He confirms this train of thought when he talks of everything being permissible, though not everything is profitable. If all is permissible, then sin is impossible. Thus, why John states that while one who is born again has sin abiding in him, he cannot sin for he is born of God.

Yukerboy
Dec 20th 2008, 07:24 PM
Amen. That's what I believe as well.

As do most. I am not saying that the stance I have taken is a popular one, just one that confirms the perfect harmony of the Scriptures.


I must've spent too long on here today and got myself boggle-minded, because I'm not understanding what you're saying. Help me out here. Is it impossible for you to sin and does your life bear that out? Do you ever sin?

It is impossible for any Christian to sin. Don't think I am trying to say I am sinless, but others are not. Every Christian has been washed.

It is no longer I who sins, but the sin living within my flesh. Everything I do is permissible, but not everything I do is profitable.


i think what yuker is getting at is that Christians, in their spirit nature, cannot sin, but sin dwells in their flesh, so like Paul says, it wasn't him who was doing wrong, but sin that dwelled in his members. But the spirit within a christian cannot sin. Is this true?

100% agree with that

ProjectPeter
Dec 20th 2008, 07:26 PM
Where does Scripture make this distinction of a "sin free spirit" while the flesh still sins? Paul certainly made no such claim in Romans 7.

reformedct
Dec 20th 2008, 07:32 PM
Where does Scripture make this distinction of a "sin free spirit" while the flesh still sins? Paul certainly made no such claim in Romans 7.


im not sure but the bible says what is born of spirit is spirit, and it also says for instance do not grieve the spirit by whom you have been sealed. So if the spirit also participated in sin, why would it be grieved? i may be wrong but i think the flesh refers to the way we think, act and behave do to the effects of sin. I believe in these areas we will always fall short, but the indwelling Spirit of CHrist does not sin. It leads us and guides us. So i guess in that sense of the Spirit the CHristian doesn't sin?? lol somebody help me out here:P

Bethany67
Dec 20th 2008, 07:33 PM
Where does Scripture make this distinction of a "sin free spirit" while the flesh still sins? Paul certainly made no such claim in Romans 7.

No I don't see it either; it seems to imply to me a denial of personal culpability when we/our flesh sins. If it were true, we'd never need to repent of anything after salvation.

Bethany67
Dec 20th 2008, 07:36 PM
im not sure but the bible says what is born of spirit is spirit, and it also says for instance do not grieve the spirit by whom you have been sealed. So if the spirit also participated in sin, why would it be grieved? i may be wrong but i think the flesh refers to the way we think, act and behave do to the effects of sin. I believe in these areas we will always fall short, but the indwelling Spirit of CHrist does not sin. It leads us and guides us. So i guess in that sense of the Spirit the CHristian doesn't sin?? lol somebody help me out here:P

I'm confused about which spirit you're talking about when you say 'it.' The Holy Spirit is a He, not an it. He doesn't merge with our spirit; we do not become part of the Holy Spirit.

reformedct
Dec 20th 2008, 07:39 PM
what i meant was our spirits after being awakened by the Holy Spirit don't sin? im not sure though. But since we are born Of the Holy Spirit, doesn't that somehow affect the nature of our individual spirits?

and also do we have two different spirits in us? like do we have an individual spirit and then also the Holy Spirit in us? im getting myself more confused

ProjectPeter
Dec 20th 2008, 08:16 PM
No I don't see it either; it seems to imply to me a denial of personal culpability when we/our flesh sins. If it were true, we'd never need to repent of anything after salvation.Pretty simple but full of prudence. :)

Yukerboy
Dec 20th 2008, 09:26 PM
Where does Scripture make this distinction of a "sin free spirit" while the flesh still sins? Paul certainly made no such claim in Romans 7.


I'm not going to allow myself to be dragged in circles. I laid it out there where Paul confirms John when John says one who is born again cannot sin. Paul makes the claim, the question is whether you drop preconceived notions and accept it.


it seems to imply to me a denial of personal culpability when we/our flesh sins. If it were true, we'd never need to repent of anything after salvation.


Define need.

If you are saved (meaning you will persevere to the end) then you have no need for repentance after salvation for God works in you to will and work for His good purposes. So no, need is not there. The desire to may be.

Christ didn't come to call the righteous to repentance, but the sinner.


I'm confused about which spirit you're talking about when you say 'it.' The Holy Spirit is a He, not an it. He doesn't merge with our spirit; we do not become part of the Holy Spirit.

But the Holy Spirit becomes a part of us when we are saved. God abides in us when we are saved. The flesh, god cannot abide in for it is corrupt, but the Spirit, that he washes and abides in. If He abides in you, you cannot sin.

drew
Dec 20th 2008, 09:26 PM
The law is the power of sin. The sting of sin is death. The law was added so that trespasses (sin) would increase.
I agree that the Law - the Torah - was added to increase sin. As I have said in the past, I suspect that you and I will stand alone in holding this position.


When Paul says that it is no longer he who sins, but the sin that lives within his flesh that does it, he knew it would be a difficult concept.
I have to claim here that sound exegesis simply does not allow us to understand Romans 7 as being descriptive of the Christian.

There are several connected issues at play here. Let me first deal with who Romans 7 is talking about. I suggest that the evidence is overwhelming that Paul is not talking about the Christian in any sense in Romans 7.

The issue in Romans 7 is Torah and this is yet another reason why this cannot be a treatment of the struggles of the Christian:

1Do you not know, brothers—for I am speaking to men who know the law—that the law has authority over a man only as long as he lives?

So, my brothers, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit to God.

But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code

And there is much more. We need to honour Paul and let him tell us what he wants to talk about. And these verses, and others, clearly and definitively show that it is the Torah that is on the table, not a vague moral code that sucks the Christian into legalism.

Since the following of Torah has no place in the life of the Christian, Paul simply cannot be describing the experience the experience of the Christian in Romans 7 even if, with some rather imaginative reworkings, one might otherwise understand it to be a transcript of Christian experience.

Now even this were not so clear, we can rule out the possibility that Paul is talking about the Christian on other grounds. You correctly observe that the person in Romans 7 is a distinct entity from the "sin" that lives in him.

You may be surprised to know that I heartily agree with that.

However, just because Christians still sin (I suspect others in this thread might disagree, but we'll overlook that for present purposes), and even if we grant that this happens because of this independent sin entity living in them, we can still rule out the possibilty that this is what Paul is talking about in Romans 7.

Look at what how Paul describes the nature of the problem for the person in Romans 7.

20But if I am doing the very thing I do not want, (AJ (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=romans%207&version=49#cen-NASB-28112AJ))I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me. 21I find then the principle that evil is present in me, the one who wants to do good. 22For I joyfully concur with the law of God in (AL (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=romans%207&version=49#cen-NASB-28114AL))the inner man, 23but I see (AM (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=romans%207&version=49#cen-NASB-28115AM))a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the (AN (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=romans%207&version=49#cen-NASB-28115AN))law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members.

The person in Romans 7 is specifically a prisoner of this "foreign entity" - and here I agree with you that sin is described as distinct from the "I".

Now look at how Paul describes the state of the Christian in Romans 8:

Therefore there is now no (A (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=8&version=49#cen-NASB-28118A))condemnation for those who are (B (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=8&version=49#cen-NASB-28118B))in (C (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=8&version=49#cen-NASB-28118C))Christ Jesus. 2For (D (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=8&version=49#cen-NASB-28119D))the law of the Spirit of life in (E (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=8&version=49#cen-NASB-28119E))Christ Jesus (F (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=8&version=49#cen-NASB-28119F))has set you free from the law of sin and of death.

The Christian is set free from the very thing that the person in Romans 7 is a prisoner of.
Therefore, it simply cannot be the case that the person in Romans 7 is a Christian. And, of course, this does not mean that I am denying that Christians still sin and this deos not mean that I deny that "sin" may be, even for the Christian, a "foreign presence".

drew
Dec 20th 2008, 09:36 PM
Where does Scripture make this distinction of a "sin free spirit" while the flesh still sins? Paul certainly made no such claim in Romans 7.
I wish to stress that I see little way for anyone to make a case that Romans 7 is about the Christian. I think the case is rock solid that Paul is reflecting on the plight of the Jew under the Torah here.

But, I will point out that while I believe that I do not share yuker's characterization of the "structure" of the human person, it is nevertheless true that sin is indeed a "distinct" agent for the person in Romans 7 - the Jew under Torah.

It is difficult for we 21st century products of enlightenment thinking to conceive of sin as a power or force. But my reading of Paul inclines me to think that Paul indeed did consider sin to be a real force or power in the world.

In this respect, consider some of the things that Paul writes in Romans 7. As I have already argued the main argument that Paul is making in Romans 7 is about the Jew under Torah, not the Christian experience.

Consider this from Romans 7:

8But sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, produced in me every kind of covetous desire. For apart from law, sin is dead. 9Once I was alive apart from law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died.

If one comes to this text without an a priori bias to believe that Paul is speaking metaphorically, one must consider taking Paul literally and concluding that sin is indeed a power or force that can do the things described here. Now it is, of course, possible that Paul is speaking metaphorically here but the overall shape of Paul’s argument in Romans speaks strongly against a metaphorical reading. I will return to this at the end.

This text is even more telling:

For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. 20Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.

It is not really possible to reconcile this description of sin with the view that sin is an "intention of the heart” or a simply one of two moral categories (good, sinful) into which human actions can be sorted. Note that in the above, Paul is drawing a clear distinction between himself (as representative of the Jew under Torah) and sin. This really only makes sense if sin is conceived to be a real force, fundamentally distinct from Paul. In this text, the metaphorical reading falls apart. Paul clearly ascribes responsibility for the evil he does to a separate agency – sin living in him. He is not saying that “the sinful part of me” is doing this evil. No, he has clearly stated that agency who does this sin is not the “I” - how much clearer could he be than a claim “it is no longer I who do it”.

While I am suspect most will claim I am reading Paul too literally when he should be read metaphorically, that argument cannot work. It might work in verses 8-9 but not here. Paul has closed the door on the possibility that he is only metaphorically describing sin as if it were a force. How has he done this? Obviously by the clear statement “I do not do the evil I do, sin living in me does this evil”.

And finally, we have this famous text from Romans 8:

For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the sinful nature, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful man to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in sinful man,...

God condemns sin on the cross, not Jesus. How can this possibly be if sin is merely an intention of the heart or a moral category? No. Sin is a real power in the world that is defeated on the cross.

Bethany67
Dec 20th 2008, 09:40 PM
If you are saved (meaning you will persevere to the end) then you have no need for repentance after salvation for God works in you to will and work for His good purposes. So no, need is not there. The desire to may be.

If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. 10If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word has no place in our lives. 1 John 1.

My brothers, as believers in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ ... James 2:1-

Come near to God and he will come near to you. Wash your hands, you sinners, and purify your hearts, you double-minded. 9Grieve, mourn and wail. Change your laughter to mourning and your joy to gloom. 10Humble yourselves before the Lord, and he will lift you up. James 4

James is talking to fellow believers, calls them sinners and calls them to repent.

Is any one of you in trouble? He should pray. Is anyone happy? Let him sing songs of praise. 14Is any one of you sick? He should call the elders of the church to pray over him and anoint him with oil in the name of the Lord. 15And the prayer offered in faith will make the sick person well; the Lord will raise him up. If he has sinned, he will be forgiven. 16Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous man is powerful and effective. James 5.

My brothers, if one of you should wander from the truth and someone should bring him back, 20remember this: Whoever turns a sinner from the error of his way will save him from death and cover over a multitude of sins. James 5

Remember the height from which you have fallen! Repent and do the things you did at first. If you do not repent, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place. Rev 2 - Jesus talking to Christians.

So John, James and Jesus Himself tell believers to repent.

Sirus
Dec 20th 2008, 10:09 PM
The person in Romans 7 cannot possibly be a Christian - Paul is describing the state of the Jew under the Torah (using the "I" as a literary device to identify himself (a Jew) with the people whom he has such sympathy for.

Romans 7 does not deal with the experiences of the believer. It is Paul's reflection on the plight of the Jew under Torah, analyzed from his perspective as a Christian.

Would the Christian say this about his experience as a Christian:

Once I was alive apart from law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died. 10I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life actually brought death

Of course not. Paul is looking back here to the time when the advent of the Law - the Torah - brought judgement and death. This is true of the Jew under Torah, not the Christian.

Would the Christian say this about his experience as a Christian:

But in order that sin might be recognized as sin, it produced death in me through what was good, so that through the commandment sin might become utterly sinful

Sin produces death in the Christian? Sin becomes utterly sinful in the Christian? Of course not.

Please do not misunderstand Romans 7. It is not a transcript of Christian experience, for the alleged "elect" or otherwise. It is what Paul knows to be the case about the plight of the Jew under Torah, as seen from Paul's present state - that of a redeemed saint.I agree Romans 7 IS NOT the christian life Jesus died for to give us and that it is very sad how the chapter is misused to this end.

Paul's point in Romans, from chapter 1 where he said he is not ashamed of the gospel for it is the power of God unto salvation, to chapter 7, Paul takes to task the Jewish mindset and unfolds a theological dissertation that hinges on the fact that the gospel can do what the law can not. The law could not make a man righteous being weak because of our flesh. Christ not only justifies us by faith but crucified our flesh that the body of sin be destroyed that we would no longer serve sin. It's not just imputed righteousness!!! If it is, then the gospel is no better than the law and Paul is whistling in the wind.

Romans 6 tells us we are crucified and dead. Continuing, Romans 7 starts with a very simple concept. As long as a man is alive, he is bound to law. Any law. The IRS can follow you to the coffin, but that's where they stop. Law looses ALL jurisdiction over a dead man. All mankind is a woman married to a mean terrible old man (flesh). The woman longs to be free but the only way she can be free her is if her husband (flesh) dies. Finally one day her husband (flesh) dies and she is now dead to the law (no jurisdiction) (Rom 7:4) binding her to that old man (flesh). Now she can marry a new man that is everything she dreamed and much more. That woman is you and I and we are joined to the Lord Jesus.

What has Paul done here? He has shown the Jew the gospel is legal. The law didn't die. The law is good and spiritual. The old man died. Paul has shown the Jew the law is not sin or evil but the flesh is and the flesh needed to die and that Christ did that for us and to us. We just believe it and walk in that way of escape for every temptation.

Sadly, Romans commentaries say the law died. That Paul must have been confused. The (the Holy Spirit's) parallel breaks down. It's just not a good example. He was afraid to say to the Jews the law died. No, they just can't read context because they're so busy looking for something 'spiritual' to compare to their experience instead of comparing truth to their experience and by faith allowing the truth to change them!

ProjectPeter
Dec 20th 2008, 10:18 PM
I wish to stress that I see little way for anyone to make a case that Romans 7 is about the Christian. I think the case is rock solid that Paul is reflecting on the plight of the Jew under the Torah here.

But, I will point out that while I believe that I do not share yuker's characterization of the "structure" of the human person, it is nevertheless true that sin is indeed a "distinct" agent for the person in Romans 7 - the Jew under Torah.

It is difficult for we 21st century products of enlightenment thinking to conceive of sin as a power or force. But my reading of Paul inclines me to think that Paul indeed did consider sin to be a real force or power in the world.

In this respect, consider some of the things that Paul writes in Romans 7. As I have already argued the main argument that Paul is making in Romans 7 is about the Jew under Torah, not the Christian experience.

Consider this from Romans 7:

8But sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, produced in me every kind of covetous desire. For apart from law, sin is dead. 9Once I was alive apart from law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died.

If one comes to this text without an a priori bias to believe that Paul is speaking metaphorically, one must consider taking Paul literally and concluding that sin is indeed a power or force that can do the things described here. Now it is, of course, possible that Paul is speaking metaphorically here but the overall shape of Paul’s argument in Romans speaks strongly against a metaphorical reading. I will return to this at the end.

This text is even more telling:

For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. 20Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.

It is not really possible to reconcile this description of sin with the view that sin is an "intention of the heart” or a simply one of two moral categories (good, sinful) into which human actions can be sorted. Note that in the above, Paul is drawing a clear distinction between himself (as representative of the Jew under Torah) and sin. This really only makes sense if sin is conceived to be a real force, fundamentally distinct from Paul. In this text, the metaphorical reading falls apart. Paul clearly ascribes responsibility for the evil he does to a separate agency – sin living in him. He is not saying that “the sinful part of me” is doing this evil. No, he has clearly stated that agency who does this sin is not the “I” - how much clearer could he be than a claim “it is no longer I who do it”.

While I am suspect most will claim I am reading Paul too literally when he should be read metaphorically, that argument cannot work. It might work in verses 8-9 but not here. Paul has closed the door on the possibility that he is only metaphorically describing sin as if it were a force. How has he done this? Obviously by the clear statement “I do not do the evil I do, sin living in me does this evil”.

And finally, we have this famous text from Romans 8:

For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the sinful nature, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful man to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in sinful man,...

God condemns sin on the cross, not Jesus. How can this possibly be if sin is merely an intention of the heart or a moral category? No. Sin is a real power in the world that is defeated on the cross.
You know I already agree... so works for me. ;)

reformedct
Dec 20th 2008, 10:22 PM
for those who believe that romans 7 is talking about Paul before he was a christian:

let me just ask,

are you telling us that you never sin?

did you sin today?

have you sinned in the past week?

in the past month?

please don't lie to us, because that is a very bad sin lol

everytime you sin does it mean you were never saved?

are we saved by grace thru faith but then maintained by perfection?

is God an indian giver? does he give the gift of eternal life then say, man i never knew you werent going to be perfect, give it back please?

i just dont understand. if christians are sinless, all of us on here if we are honest must admit that we are only saved for moments at a time, because even thoughts count.

where is the blessed assurance and rejoicing in that?

im not saying we should sin that grace should abound,
but i don't believe immediate perfection once someone is born again is the correct interpretation. I have never in my life met one christian who never sins.

if our assurance is based on if we sin or not i dont have anything to rejoice about.

i would rather forget about salvation until i lie on my death bed and get saved in my final moments than try to be perfect every second

whats the point of recieving the righteousness of God if we are found in a righteousness of our own?

drew
Dec 20th 2008, 10:37 PM
for those who believe that romans 7 is talking about Paul before he was a christian:

let me just ask,

are you telling us that you never sin?

did you sin today?

have you sinned in the past week?

in the past month?

please don't lie to us, because that is a very bad sin lol
I have no idea what your point is here. There is no doubt - Romans 7 is not a description of Christian experience. The entire argument is clealy about the Torah and the plight of the non-believing Jew under Torah.

Paul says things in Romans 7 that cannot possibly be true of the Christian - that he "cannot do good" and that he "is sold in slavery to sin".

Are you suggesting that these things are true of Christians?

Your argument appears to be of this form;

1. Romans 7 describes the struggle within an unspecified person between the power of sin and the desire to do good.

2. Christians experience a struggle between the power of sin and the deisre to do good;

3. Therefore, Romans 7 is about Christians.

Statements 1 and 2 are correct, but statement 3 is not a valid inference.

This is like arguing:

1. A certain text describes an unspecified person's struggle with getting up early in the morning;

2. Fred Smith experiences a struggle with getting up in the morning.

3. Therefore, the text in question must be about Fred Smith.

To repeat: The fact that Romans 7 describes a struggle that the Christian might experience in no way implies that the Romans 7 text is about the Christian, since we know that there are other groups whose struggle is also subject to the description in Romans 7. One of these groups is the Jew under Torah.

drew
Dec 20th 2008, 10:41 PM
Hello Sirus:

Well we agree that Romans 7 is not a description about the experience of any Christian. But I may not share your view about the Law. I think that Paul indeed declares that Torah is now "retired", at least in the sense of it being a set of practices and rules that marked the Jew as distinct from the Gentile.

There is, I agree, a sense in which the Torah is established, not retired (Paul's view of the law is complex and subtle).

reformedct
Dec 20th 2008, 10:43 PM
I have no idea what your point is here. There is no doubt - Romans 7 is not a description of Christian experience. The entire argument is clealy about the Torah and the plight of the non-believing Jew under Torah.

Paul says things in Romans 7 that cannot possibly be true of the Christian - that he "cannot do good" and that he "is sold in slavery to sin".

Are you suggesting that these things are true of Christians?

Your argument appears to be of this form;

1. Romans 7 describes the struggle within an unspecified person between the power of sin and the desire to do good.

2. Christians experience a struggle between the power of sin and the deisre to do good;

3. Therefore, Romans 7 is about Christians.

Statements 1 and 2 are correct, but statement 3 is not a valid inference.

This is like arguing:

1. A certain text describes an unspecified person's struggle with getting up early in the morning;

2. Fred Smith experiences a struggle with getting up in the morning.

3. Therefore, the text in question must be about Fred Smith.

To repeat: The fact that Romans 7 describes a struggle that the Christian might experience in no way implies that the Romans 7 text is about the Christian, since we know that there are other groups whose struggle is also subject to the description in Romans 7. One of these groups is the Jew under Torah.


i understand what you are saying. Im also just asking one person to come on here and tell me they have not sinned in the past week thats all im saying. I wont force anyone to believe what i do but to me this interpretation is questionable. i dont know everything and i will continue to study for myself but for now it is my position as well as that of many others that Paul struggled with sin AS a believer

ProjectPeter
Dec 20th 2008, 10:44 PM
im not sure but the bible says what is born of spirit is spirit, and it also says for instance do not grieve the spirit by whom you have been sealed. So if the spirit also participated in sin, why would it be grieved? i may be wrong but i think the flesh refers to the way we think, act and behave do to the effects of sin. I believe in these areas we will always fall short, but the indwelling Spirit of CHrist does not sin. It leads us and guides us. So i guess in that sense of the Spirit the CHristian doesn't sin?? lol somebody help me out here:P


for those who believe that romans 7 is talking about Paul before he was a christian:

let me just ask,

are you telling us that you never sin?

did you sin today?

have you sinned in the past week?

in the past month?

please don't lie to us, because that is a very bad sin lol

everytime you sin does it mean you were never saved?

are we saved by grace thru faith but then maintained by perfection?

is God an indian giver? does he give the gift of eternal life then say, man i never knew you werent going to be perfect, give it back please?

i just dont understand. if christians are sinless, all of us on here if we are honest must admit that we are only saved for moments at a time, because even thoughts count.

where is the blessed assurance and rejoicing in that?

im not saying we should sin that grace should abound,
but i don't believe immediate perfection once someone is born again is the correct interpretation. I have never in my life met one christian who never sins.

if our assurance is based on if we sin or not i dont have anything to rejoice about.

i would rather forget about salvation until i lie on my death bed and get saved in my final moments than try to be perfect every second

whats the point of recieving the righteousness of God if we are found in a righteousness of our own?
I don't think anyone is advocating sinless perfection after being born again (immediately). That is a doctrine that is out there but we don't let that stuff happen here on the board. But the original post simply asked was it possible in this lifetime. Tis a difference.

Tell me something... when you read this passage... what do you read?

Romans 8:23 And not only this, but also we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our body.
24 For in hope we have been saved, but hope that is seen is not hope; for why does one also hope for what he sees?
25 But if we hope for what we do not see, with perseverance we wait eagerly for it.

Sirus
Dec 20th 2008, 10:52 PM
Hello Sirus:

Well we agree that Romans 7 is not a description about the experience of any Christian. But I may not share your view about the Law. I think that Paul indeed declares that Torah is now "retired", at least in the sense of it being a set of practices and rules that marked the Jew as distinct from the Gentile.

There is, I agree, a sense in which the Torah is established, not retired (Paul's view of the law is complex and subtle).Right. Superseded by Christ by a new and better way that the righteousness in the law is fulfilled and the law is established (held up) through and in Christ, by us, his body. Christ is the focus not the law.

I was simply addressing the common error that it was the law that died in Romans 7 when clearly it is the old man that died.

drew
Dec 20th 2008, 10:56 PM
i understand what you are saying. Im also just asking one person to come on here and tell me they have not sinned in the past week thats all im saying.
I have almost certainly sinned in the last week. I have never denied that believers sin. But I would say it is clear that Romans 7 is not talking about the Christian.

BCF
Dec 20th 2008, 11:43 PM
I don't think anyone is advocating sinless perfection after being born again (immediately). That is a doctrine that is out there but we don't let that stuff happen here on the board. But the original post simply asked was it possible in this lifetime. Tis a difference.

Tell me something... when you read this passage... what do you read?

Romans 8:23 And not only this, but also we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our body.
24 For in hope we have been saved, but hope that is seen is not hope; for why does one also hope for what he sees?
25 But if we hope for what we do not see, with perseverance we wait eagerly for it.

Hi PP, good to talk to you again after being down and out for a while due to some eye surgery. Needed to get both of my eyes worked on so that I could see better.....so they claim.:rolleyes: It worked good for the first few weeks....now I'm back to things going fuzzy again. But...all is well I guess. I can see farther then what I could before.....I just can't see up close:lol:. Before I could not see far away....go figure.

Anyway, before I take a stab at your question here....I need to ask you.....what is your definition of the first fruits of the Spirit?

The first fruits of the Spirit to me are Love, Joy, Peace, Happiness, and so on. I was just wondering what you were calling the first fruits of the Spirit in verse 23.

I hate to be a pain......but you know me....always the thorn in the side:lol:.

Dave

neverleaveunorfors
Dec 21st 2008, 02:30 AM
what is perfect ? my ways are not your ways nor my thoughts your thoughts !!!!! so open your mind to why or should say just what is God doing in your life or maybe its not about you at all it maybe about someone else .think that maybe you are tested or maybe you from God maybe testing someone else or maybe just a witness of someone elses actions . Here is what perefction is to me .No questions ask and no circumstances either would you be willing to give your life for another to live? there should not be even a thought your answer should be yes as Jesus did for us remember life is not about you put others first serve the purpose that God has for you thnk about all things as to just what may God be doing and remember mmy ways are not your ways nor my thoughts your thoughts . love to all

Yukerboy
Dec 21st 2008, 04:07 AM
If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. 10If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word has no place in our lives. 1 John 1.

My brothers, as believers in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ ... James 2:1-

Come near to God and he will come near to you. Wash your hands, you sinners, and purify your hearts, you double-minded. 9Grieve, mourn and wail. Change your laughter to mourning and your joy to gloom. 10Humble yourselves before the Lord, and he will lift you up. James 4

James is talking to fellow believers, calls them sinners and calls them to repent.

Is any one of you in trouble? He should pray. Is anyone happy? Let him sing songs of praise. 14Is any one of you sick? He should call the elders of the church to pray over him and anoint him with oil in the name of the Lord. 15And the prayer offered in faith will make the sick person well; the Lord will raise him up. If he has sinned, he will be forgiven. 16Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous man is powerful and effective. James 5.

My brothers, if one of you should wander from the truth and someone should bring him back, 20remember this: Whoever turns a sinner from the error of his way will save him from death and cover over a multitude of sins. James 5

Remember the height from which you have fallen! Repent and do the things you did at first. If you do not repent, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place. Rev 2 - Jesus talking to Christians.

So John, James and Jesus Himself tell believers to repent.

Read the book of James. He is not writing to those that are saved.

James even states:

You kill and covet, but you cannot have what you want. You quarrel and fight. You do not have, because you do not ask God.

You adulterous people, don't you know that friendship with the world is hatred toward God?

Are Christians adulterous? Do they kill and covet? Do they quarrel and fight? Do they not ask God anything? Should Christians grieve, mourn, and wail? Should Christians be gloomy and not joyous?

Even Christ talking in Revelation states they have fallen. They were never saved, for those who have fallen, Christ shall say I never knew you. And the only ones that belong with us in salvation are those that will remain with us. If they do not remain, they were NEVER one of us. All that is according to John.

reformedct
Dec 21st 2008, 04:13 AM
I have almost certainly sinned in the last week. I have never denied that believers sin. But I would say it is clear that Romans 7 is not talking about the Christian.

i apologize. upon reading the text again it does seem that Paul is talking about His experience under the law. however verse 21-3 talks about delighting in the law in his innermost being, but another law present in his members. it seems that he is talking about both the law without Christ and presently his delight in the law but the prescence of sin. i may be wrong again but thats what i see when i read

Bethany67
Dec 21st 2008, 11:30 AM
Read the book of James. He is not writing to those that are saved.

James even states:

You kill and covet, but you cannot have what you want. You quarrel and fight. You do not have, because you do not ask God.

You adulterous people, don't you know that friendship with the world is hatred toward God?

Are Christians adulterous? Do they kill and covet? Do they quarrel and fight? Do they not ask God anything? Should Christians grieve, mourn, and wail? Should Christians be gloomy and not joyous?

Even Christ talking in Revelation states they have fallen. They were never saved, for those who have fallen, Christ shall say I never knew you. And the only ones that belong with us in salvation are those that will remain with us. If they do not remain, they were NEVER one of us. All that is according to John.

I stand by my view that both James and Jesus are talking to Christians. James was writing to Jewish Christians from the twelve tribes calling them to holiness and separation while they await His second coming, and Jesus was speaking to the church in Ephesus reminding them of what they did at first and recalling them to their first love. There's no indication that either of them were addressing non-Christians who were never saved.

Yukerboy
Dec 21st 2008, 03:31 PM
That's fine. Your view that Christians can kill, covet, not ask God for anything, turn joy (which is the fruit of the spirit) to gloom, fight, quarrel, and be fallen is unique.

As for me, I dropped preconceived notions and I shall stand by the Scripture.

Yuke

Bethany67
Dec 21st 2008, 03:47 PM
Can and do when they sin, but definitely should not.

I stand by scripture as well, as I have posted the scriptural reasons for my beliefs and taken into account the context and to whom they are addressed. Your view that Christians cannot sin and do not need to repent is certainly not one that I've ever heard before, nor do I see it as warranted by the whole of scripture. We'll have to agree to disagree.

Yukerboy
Dec 21st 2008, 04:58 PM
It's not my view.

It is John's statement.

That's what I'm trying to tell you, forget what you have heard before. Do not depend on what man has told you. Go by what the Scripture says.

When God through John says one who is born again cannot sin, he meant it.

Trying to redefine cannot into should not leads to dangerous doctrine. The following Scripture would also need changed.

God cannot be tempted with evil, but if redefined, now He can be, but shouldn't be.

God cannot lie, but redefined, now He can, but He shouldn't.

You cannot drink the cup of the Lord's and the cup of the devil's becomes you can, but you shouldn't.

And the list goes on.

You cannot serve God and mammon.
Good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit.
Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God.
Those in the flesh cannot please God.
The Scripture cannot be broken.
Unless a man is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

So, in all these cases cannot means impossible, but in 1 John 3:9, you want to change the definition?

I cannot go any further. Accept what the Scripture says or not. All Scripture is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction. I just don't know how else to say it.

reformedct
Dec 21st 2008, 05:09 PM
It's not my view.

It is John's statement.

That's what I'm trying to tell you, forget what you have heard before. Do not depend on what man has told you. Go by what the Scripture says.

When God through John says one who is born again cannot sin, he meant it.

Trying to redefine cannot into should not leads to dangerous doctrine. The following Scripture would also need changed.

God cannot be tempted with evil, but if redefined, now He can be, but shouldn't be.

God cannot lie, but redefined, now He can, but He shouldn't.

You cannot drink the cup of the Lord's and the cup of the devil's becomes you can, but you shouldn't.

And the list goes on.

You cannot serve God and mammon.
Good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit.
Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God.
Those in the flesh cannot please God.
The Scripture cannot be broken.
Unless a man is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

So, in all these cases cannot means impossible, but in 1 John 3:9, you want to change the definition?

I cannot go any further. Accept what the Scripture says or not. All Scripture is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction. I just don't know how else to say it.


we all agree John said what he said. We don't all agree on the exact meaning of what he said. Yes, John said no one born of God commits sin

Jesus also said if your eye causes you to sin pluck it out. How come none of us have done this? because we think the meaning is more than just whats on the surface.

I think John is making a point not a dogma. In my bible it actually says no one KEEPS ON SINNING, a present tense ongoing action. So yes John said what he said, but it is more important what he meant than just the words in some cases.

Paul said he wish he could trade his salvation for the salvation of his friends. I dont really think Paul wanted to go to hell for others i think he was just making a point

Yukerboy
Dec 21st 2008, 05:24 PM
we all agree John said what he said. We don't all agree on the exact meaning of what he said. Yes, John said no one born of God commits sin

Jesus also said if your eye causes you to sin pluck it out. How come none of us have done this? because we think the meaning is more than just whats on the surface.

I think John is making a point not a dogma. In my bible it actually says no one KEEPS ON SINNING, a present tense ongoing action. So yes John said what he said, but it is more important what he meant than just the words in some cases.

Paul said he wish he could trade his salvation for the salvation of his friends. I dont really think Paul wanted to go to hell for others i think he was just making a point

Jesus said to pluck out what causes you to offend. What causes you to sin is your sinful mind. When salvation comes, it is plucked out, a changed creature.

Most every version refers to it as sin. The Greek word is translated as sin, trespass, offense.

Not only that, but I went to the Greek for cannot in 1 John 3:9.

Did you know that it is ou dynamai? This is literally unable.

So many words God could have chosen, yet he chose unable to sin.

As for Paul, yes, he would give up his salvation for the many. He meant that. As I would and I am sure you would.

Jesus Christ laid down his life for us. And we ought to lay down our lives for our brothers.

SIG
Dec 21st 2008, 05:26 PM
If you are correct, then John has lied. If you are correct, then I need to rip John, 1 John, 2 John, 3 John, and Revelation out of my Bible, for they would not be God inspired.

Think of these things:

1. What is sin?
2. Are those who are born again under law or under grace?
3. Is everything permissible to those who are born again?
4. Is your flesh made perfect when you become saved?

Yuke

Perhaps you will come to re-think your understanding of those writings.

1. Sin is lawlessness. Even Christ was born under the Law.
2. We are under grace, and if we are living in the Spirit, fulfilling the Law.
3. No. Do we continue to sin that grace may abound?
4. No--if it were, we would not physically die.

Yukerboy
Dec 21st 2008, 05:52 PM
Perhaps you will come to re-think your understanding of those writings.

1. Sin is lawlessness. Even Christ was born under the Law.
2. We are under grace, and if we are living in the Spirit, fulfilling the Law.
3. No. Do we continue to sin that grace may abound?
4. No--if it were, we would not physically die.

1. Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

2. For sin shall not be your master, because you are not under law, but under grace.

3. "Everything is permissible"—but not everything is beneficial. "Everything is permissible"—but not everything is constructive.

4. Correct.

Sirus
Dec 21st 2008, 06:48 PM
Can and do when they sin, but definitely should not.

I stand by scripture as well, as I have posted the scriptural reasons for my beliefs and taken into account the context and to whom they are addressed. Your view that Christians cannot sin and do not need to repent is certainly not one that I've ever heard before, nor do I see it as warranted by the whole of scripture. We'll have to agree to disagree.James is to the twelve tribes scattered. YB said this already but consider this.....

Jam 1:1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.
Jam 1:2 My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations;

Jam 5:19 Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him;
Jam 5:20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

I prefer to let Scripture define words for me instead of blindly accepting mans definition.

To err from the truth isn't rejecting the truth it's going astray.
Convert is to turn, not born again.
Truth is something known which involves the mind, which is part of the soul.

So going astray from known truth to follow your own way leads to destruction of the mind will and emotions (soul from death). This process is seen in Romans 1. This leads to being reprobate and ultimately destruction.

Conversion is mentioned along side 'men of Israel', in every case (including James 5). A conversion from Religious Judaism to Christ.

Mat 13:15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

Mar 4:12 That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.

Joh 12:40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

Act 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;

Act 28:27 For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.


So what about James? Yes, James to
Jam 1:1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.
Jam 1:2 My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations;

So, is it a sinner Jew of Judaism being converted to Christ as with all the other examples? Could this be why 5:19-20 is so misunderstood? If we strictly follow the text.....yes!

Bethany67
Dec 21st 2008, 07:29 PM
And I'm saying you're building a doctrine on a couple of verses which you are taking out of context. 1 John is written to Christians; he calls them dear children and say in 1 John 2 that IF anybody does sin there is One who speaks in our defence. If it were utterly impossible for Christians to sin even as a single act, there would also be no point John saying in 1 John 3:7 that no-one should lead them astray, no need to warn them. His warning would be completely redundant. You have to look at the unity of scripture, and here we have it in the very same letter; John admits that Christians will or might sin, doesn't want them to and provides the solution to that sin:

My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have one who speaks to the Father in our defense—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. 1 John 2:1

As we seem to be going round in circles, let's look at the Greek of 1 John 3:9 and pay particular attention to the tense, mood and aspect of the Greek to see if it supports your idea that a Christian cannot sin, but first a quick rundown of moods, tenses, and aspects in koine Greek:

A mood is a verb form which indicates modality, the idea of possibility or necessity. Examples are indicative (whether something actually is or is not the case, a statement of fact), imperative (a command or order), optative (something wished and hoped for but not factual) and subjunctive (expressing wishes and possibilities which are contrary to the fact at the present time).

An aspect speaks of the duration of time in relation to the event eg. 'I went' compared to 'I was going' or 'I do' compared to 'I am doing.' This idea of duration of time can also be indicated by tense, as in the French perfect tense (Il a fait - he did - completed action) and imperfect tense (Il faisait = he was doing, continuous action in the past or doing something repeatedly) and similarly the German 'er hat gemacht' (perfect) and er machte (imperfect).

Tenses we're pretty familiar with in English: I go, I will go, I went, I had gone. But Greek also has the aorist (meaning without horizons); it is used to state plain fact. It's very direct with no qualifiers, as we'll see.

1 John 3:9:

paV o gegennhmenoV ek tou qeou amartian ou poiei, oti sperma autou en autw menei: kai ou dunatai amartanein, oti ek tou qeou gegennhtai.

There are two parts of the Greek to focus on:

'amartian ou poiei' = does not have the habit of sin, is not continuously sinning. Present active indicative [statement of fact] of poiein = is doing sin, is in the settled habit of practising sin; it contains the idea of continuous action, and this is really important.

If it is translated 'does no sin' as in the English present indicative (not in line with the Greek idea of continuous action), it is a poor translation of the Greek. It leads to the misunderstanding that a Christian absolutely does no sin and cannot sin, which the Greek doesn't say; the Greek speaks of a repeated habit. It leads to error and false understanding and teaching of something very important.

The second part is:

'kai ou dunatai amartanein'

If you want to say 'he cannot sin' in koine Greek, in the sense that it is flat-out impossible to commit a single act of sin full-stop, you would have to say 'kai ou dunatai amartein.' You would have to use the present active infinitive form of the verb amartein, or alternatively you could use 'amarthsai,' the second aorist or the first aorist active infinitive to state a plain fact (see above on the directness of the aorist tense).

John does NOT do this here - he uses 'amartanein' very specifically because it conveys 'continuous action,' a recurring habit - ' he cannot be repeatedly sinning.' It can only mean that linguistically; it cannot mean 'does no sin' full-stop. If John had wanted to say that, he would have used the aorist but didn't.

It means we cannot have the continuing habit of sinning, not that it is impossible for us to sin as individual acts. We should be growing in sanctification, not that we have arrived at a place where it is impossible for a Christian to commit a single sin, because that will not happen in this life. John is not teaching perfectionism; he is stirring his readers on to growing sanctification.

Here is the NIV translation which I believe goes some way to conveying the original Greek meaning of a habit of continuous (habitual unrepentant) sinning and does not support the contention of the bald impossibility of sin full-stop, because it takes into account the concept of continuous action. He is not talking about individual sins, he is talking about an ingrained pattern of one's inner inclinations. He is saying that if one claims that they have not sinned (1 John 1:10) one calls God a liar; one pits oneself against God. That is the point where he declares such as person as not having the truth in them.

No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God.

You also have to understand the historical context of when and where John was writing. He was combatting fledgling Gnosticism by false teachers in Ephesus who were leading the church astray, who were teaching that the body as physical matter was unimportant, and therefore that acts committed in the temporary body were neutral and without importance or consequence; that one could do what one wanted with complete impunity as a pattern, a habit. The Gnostics denied the idea of sin (and taught that it was in fact impossible to sin in the body which was just going to be destroyed anyway so they could return to pure spirit). This is what John is writing against and why he stresses that Jesus came in the flesh, which was anathema to the Gnostics. He was warning his Christian brethren not to believe those who said sin doesn't matter; Christians should avoid sin, but if they do sin they should turn to Christ who speaks in our defence. You cannot use this letter to say that Christians cannot sin, you just can't; that's not what John intended, and it's not supported by the Greek text.

If you want to look at the other 'cannots' such as God cannot be tempted, I am more than willing to do that and I will dig into the Greek to prove the harmony of scripture, but it's going to have to wait till tomorrow, as I'm all 'Greeked out' for now. I know I've gone on at some length here but I'm not saying any of this to be a smarty-pants or show off. I think this is such a vital doctrinal idea (sinless perfectionism) with such huge implications for Christians that I cannot let it go unchallenged as it is an erroneous teaching based on a misunderstanding of scripture and context.

Sirus
Dec 21st 2008, 07:44 PM
I'm just addressing James. I didn't mention John. I am not YB. I am not saying Christians do not sin but they certainly are not known as sinners -continue in sin- and commit the hideous acts of the rich men in James 5:1-6 which are separate from the brethren in chapter 4 and chapter 5:7-. Just clearing that up.

Yukerboy
Dec 21st 2008, 07:48 PM
"You took it out of context" is a euphemism for "I don't agree with what the Scripture says"

Save time.

You have said that James refers to Christians who are in a habitual state of sin.

You have said that Christ refers to people who have fallen away as Christians.

God through John meant sin. Look at the tense and the usage and you will find it is sin in 1 John, 2 Corinthians, Romans and throughout the New Testament.

You now state sanctification is a process though Paul states the following:

To the church of God in Corinth, to those sanctified in Christ Jesus
You were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

Now, unlike James or Jesus in Revelation, or John in saying anyone, Paul IS referring to Christians here.

Once again, I ask, drop your preconceived notions and take the Scripture as it is written.

Remember it is not I who says we are sinlessly perfect. I have said that we have sin abiding in our flesh and anyone who claims to have no sin is a liar.

But thanks be to God, He has cleansed our soul of all unrighteousness.

All means all.

Bethany67
Dec 21st 2008, 07:55 PM
I'm just addressing James. I didn't mention John. I am not YB. I am not saying Christians do not sin but they certainly are not known as sinners -continue in sin- and commit the hideous acts of the rich men in James 5:1-6 which are separate from the brethren in chapter 4 and chapter 5:7-. Just clearing that up.

No I was addressing YB; sorry if it got confusing. The thread had moved on by the time I hit Submit.

RogerW
Dec 21st 2008, 07:55 PM
And I'm saying you're building a doctrine on a couple of verses which you are taking out of context. 1 John is written to Christians; he calls them dear children and say in 1 John 2 that IF anybody does sin there is One who speaks in our defence. If it were utterly impossible for Christians to sin even as a single act, there would also be no point John saying in 1 John 3:7 that no-one should lead them astray, no need to warn them. His warning would be completely redundant. You have to look at the unity of scripture, and here we have it in the very same letter; John admits that Christians will or might sin, doesn't want them to and provides the solution to that sin:

My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have one who speaks to the Father in our defense—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. 1 John 2:1

As we seem to be going round in circles, let's look at the Greek of 1 John 3:9 and pay particular attention to the tense, mood and aspect of the Greek to see if it supports your idea that a Christian cannot sin, but first a quick rundown of moods, tenses, and aspects in koine Greek:

A mood is a verb form which indicates modality, the idea of possibility or necessity. Examples are indicative (whether something actually is or is not the case, a statement of fact), imperative (a command or order), optative (something wished and hoped for but not factual) and subjunctive (expressing wishes and possibilities which are contrary to the fact at the present time).

An aspect speaks of the duration of time in relation to the event eg. 'I went' compared to 'I was going' or 'I do' compared to 'I am doing.' This idea of duration of time can also be indicated by tense, as in the French perfect tense (Il a fait - he did - completed action) and imperfect tense (Il faisait = he was doing, continuous action in the past or doing something repeatedly) and similarly the German 'er hat gemacht' (perfect) and er machte (imperfect).

Tenses we're pretty familiar with in English: I go, I will go, I went, I had gone. But Greek also has the aorist (meaning without horizons); it is used to state plain fact. It's very direct with no qualifiers, as we'll see.

1 John 3:9:

paV o gegennhmenoV ek tou qeou amartian ou poiei, oti sperma autou en autw menei: kai ou dunatai amartanein, oti ek tou qeou gegennhtai.

There are two parts of the Greek to focus on:

'amartian ou poiei' = does not have the habit of sin, is not continuously sinning. Present active indicative [statement of fact] of poiein = is doing sin, is in the settled habit of practising sin; it contains the idea of continuous action, and this is really important.

If it is translated 'does no sin' as in the English present indicative (not in line with the Greek idea of continuous action), it is a poor translation of the Greek. It leads to the misunderstanding that a Christian absolutely does no sin and cannot sin, which the Greek doesn't say; the Greek speaks of a repeated habit. It leads to error and false understanding and teaching of something very important.

The second part is:

'kai ou dunatai amartanein'

If you want to say 'he cannot sin' in koine Greek, in the sense that it is flat-out impossible to commit a single act of sin full-stop, you would have to say 'kai ou dunatai amartein.' You would have to use the present active infinitive form of the verb amartein, or alternatively you could use 'amarthsai,' the second aorist or the first aorist active infinitive to state a plain fact (see above on the directness of the aorist tense).

John does NOT do this here - he uses 'amartanein' very specifically because it conveys 'continuous action,' a recurring habit - ' he cannot be repeatedly sinning.' It can only mean that linguistically; it cannot mean 'does no sin' full-stop. If John had wanted to say that, he would have used the aorist but didn't.

It means we cannot have the continuing habit of sinning, not that it is impossible for us to sin as individual acts. We should be growing in sanctification, not that we have arrived at a place where it is impossible for a Christian to commit a single sin, because that will not happen in this life. John is not teaching perfectionism; he is stirring his readers on to growing sanctification.

Here is the NIV translation which I believe goes some way to conveying the original Greek meaning of a habit of continuous (habitual unrepentant) sinning and does not support the contention of the bald impossibility of sin full-stop, because it takes into account the concept of continuous action. He is not talking about individual sins, he is talking about an ingrained pattern of one's inner inclinations. He is saying that if one claims that they have not sinned (1 John 1:10) one calls God a liar; one pits oneself against God. That is the point where he declares such as person as not having the truth in them.

No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God.

You also have to understand the historical context of when and where John was writing. He was combatting fledgling Gnosticism by false teachers in Ephesus who were leading the church astray, who were teaching that the body as physical matter was unimportant, and therefore that acts committed in the temporary body were neutral and without importance or consequence; that one could do what one wanted with complete impunity as a pattern, a habit. The Gnostics denied the idea of sin (and taught that it was in fact impossible to sin in the body which was just going to be destroyed anyway so they could return to pure spirit). This is what John is writing against and why he stresses that Jesus came in the flesh, which was anathema to the Gnostics. He was warning his Christian brethren not to believe those who said sin doesn't matter; Christians should avoid sin, but if they do sin they should turn to Christ who speaks in our defence. You cannot use this letter to say that Christians cannot sin, you just can't; that's not what John intended, and it's not supported by the Greek text.

If you want to look at the other 'cannots' such as God cannot be tempted, I am more than willing to do that and I will dig into the Greek to prove the harmony of scripture, but it's going to have to wait till tomorrow, as I'm all 'Greeked out' for now. I know I've gone on at some length here but I'm not saying any of this to be a smarty-pants or show off. I think this is such a vital doctrinal idea (sinless perfectionism) with such huge implications for Christians that I cannot let it go unchallenged as it is an erroneous teaching based on a misunderstanding of scripture and context.

Hi Bethany,

I think the best way to interpret 1Jo is to say we (Christians) cannot/will not/don't even want to sin when we walk according to the Spirit. And this is what I believe John is saying, walk in the Spirit and you will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh. I agree with you that John is not telling us we cannot sin, because sinless perfection will only be possible after we have been resurrected with new glorified spiritual bodies, and our bodies of death and sin are gone forever. As long as we walk in this world, in these bodies of sin and death we will, even as Christians sometimes give in to the lust of our sinful flesh and commit sin...but, praise be to God, we have an Advocate; Christ Jesus who ever lives to make intercession before the Father for us. If we could not sin, why does He have to make intercession on our behalf?

We need to heed John's admonition, and sin not! Walk in the Spirit and put away, or put to death the deeds of the sinful flesh and we will grow to mature faith and peace in this life.

Many Blessings,
RW

Bethany67
Dec 21st 2008, 07:58 PM
Absolutely agreed, RW :)

Yukerboy
Dec 21st 2008, 08:59 PM
Hi Bethany,

I think the best way to interpret 1Jo is to say we (Christians) cannot/will not/don't even want to sin when we walk according to the Spirit. And this is what I believe John is saying, walk in the Spirit and you will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh. I agree with you that John is not telling us we cannot sin, because sinless perfection will only be possible after we have been resurrected with new glorified spiritual bodies, and our bodies of death and sin are gone forever. As long as we walk in this world, in these bodies of sin and death we will, even as Christians sometimes give in to the lust of our sinful flesh and commit sin...but, praise be to God, we have an Advocate; Christ Jesus who ever lives to make intercession before the Father for us. If we could not sin, why does He have to make intercession on our behalf?

We need to heed John's admonition, and sin not! Walk in the Spirit and put away, or put to death the deeds of the sinful flesh and we will grow to mature faith and peace in this life.

Many Blessings,
RW

I think the best way to interpret John is to see what other Scripture says. Paul no longer sins, but the sin within him does it. Everything is permissable, though not everything is profitable. Sin is transgression of the law, but we who are in Christ Jesus are no longer under law, but under grace.


John is not telling us we cannot sin

He cannot sin, because he has been born of God.

John very clearly is telling us that above. If you are born of God, you no longer have the ability to sin.

We have died to sin. We can not live in it any longer.

Like I said before, this is a hard concept to understand and the basis as to why the Scripture seems to conflict between calvinism and arminianism.

Calvinism = you can continue to sin and not lose salvation.
Arminianism = you lose salvation if you continue to sin.
Johnism/Paulism = you do not lose salvation because you cannot continue to sin.

reformedct
Dec 21st 2008, 09:59 PM
I think the best way to interpret John is to see what other Scripture says. Paul no longer sins, but the sin within him does it. Everything is permissable, though not everything is profitable. Sin is transgression of the law, but we who are in Christ Jesus are no longer under law, but under grace.



He cannot sin, because he has been born of God.

John very clearly is telling us that above. If you are born of God, you no longer have the ability to sin.

We have died to sin. We can not live in it any longer.

Like I said before, this is a hard concept to understand and the basis as to why the Scripture seems to conflict between calvinism and arminianism.

Calvinism = you can continue to sin and not lose salvation.
Arminianism = you lose salvation if you continue to sin.
Johnism/Paulism = you do not lose salvation because you cannot continue to sin.


calvinism is against those who go on sinning ang claim to be saved. Calvinism also demands personal holiness because if God is at work in them they will not live lifestyles marked by all kinds of sin

however i will say as i said before. We must make sure we understand the meaning behind the scripture, not just only take it at face value.

as i said before jesus says if a part of you causes you to sin cut it off. However this doesnt literally mean we should start maiming ourselves.

It is widely held that when John says we cannot sin and Paul says we died to sin, it doesnt literally mean that right now it is impossible for a Christian to sin. It means our relationship to sin has died. Sin doesn't satisfy us, we dont chase after it. It seems to mean a person cannot live in unrepentant sin and claim to be born again.

If we take Johns words literally there is no such thing as Christian growth. There would only be Perfection and imperfection

RogerW
Dec 22nd 2008, 01:57 AM
I think the best way to interpret John is to see what other Scripture says. Paul no longer sins, but the sin within him does it. Everything is permissable, though not everything is profitable. Sin is transgression of the law, but we who are in Christ Jesus are no longer under law, but under grace.

Greetings Yuke,

Yes, the sin dwells in Paul; that is in his members, or in his body of death. We don't have to give in to this sin living in us, because God has made a way of escape with every temptation. However, we (Christians) do give in to temptation at times, and Paul was no exception, even he says, "Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me."

Paul longs to do what is good, and he delights in the law of God after the inward man, but he also realizes there is a war against his mind that brings him into captivity to the law of sin in his members. This is why Paul, even more greatly, longs to be delivered from his body of sin and death. Until his body of sin and death dies and he receives his glorified spiritual body, Paul will always have a spiritual battle going on for his mind, seeking to turn him from walking in the Spirit and enticing him to walk by the flesh, longing to bring him once again into bondage. Now Paul understands fully that in Christ his sins will not condemn him because he has been set free, but he also understands the full impact of temptation and how sin can weaken his faith, bring harm to the whole body (church) and does not bring glory to God.

Ro 7:21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
Ro 7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
Ro 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
Ro 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

Paul doesn't say he no longer serves with the flesh the law of sin. He says "with the mind I myself serve the law of God; BUT with the flesh the law of sin." But is translated - and, also, moreover, also.

Ro 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

We can no longer be condemned for our sins, because Christ is risen again, and makes intercession for us (Ro 8:26-39), but we can still commit sin while we are in our bodies of flesh or when we give in to the fleshly lusts. You are correct in that when we walk in the Spirit we cannot sin. But do Christians never again choose to walk in the flesh? Did Paul never again choose to walk in the flesh?

We are delivered from the law of death, therefore our sins no longer condemn us or bring us death. However we will not be totally free of the bondage to the flesh until we have received our glorified spiritual bodies like His.

Many Blessings,
RW

Yukerboy
Dec 22nd 2008, 02:46 AM
calvinism is against those who go on sinning ang claim to be saved. Calvinism also demands personal holiness because if God is at work in them they will not live lifestyles marked by all kinds of sin

however i will say as i said before. We must make sure we understand the meaning behind the scripture, not just only take it at face value.

as i said before jesus says if a part of you causes you to sin cut it off. However this doesnt literally mean we should start maiming ourselves.

It is widely held that when John says we cannot sin and Paul says we died to sin, it doesnt literally mean that right now it is impossible for a Christian to sin. It means our relationship to sin has died. Sin doesn't satisfy us, we dont chase after it. It seems to mean a person cannot live in unrepentant sin and claim to be born again.

If we take Johns words literally there is no such thing as Christian growth. There would only be Perfection and imperfection

The five points of calvinism state that one who is saved will persevere, even when they continue to sin. I myself believe in calvinism, but straight calvinism is not proven out through the Scriptures.


Yes, the sin dwells in Paul; that is in his members, or in his body of death. We don't have to give in to this sin living in us, because God has made a way of escape with every temptation. However, we (Christians) do give in to temptation at times, and Paul was no exception, even he says, "Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me."

All this I agree with. However, when Paul would "give in to temptation" it was no longer Paul who sinned, but the sin living within him. If it was Paul that sinned, then Paul was neither sanctified nor born of God.


Paul longs to do what is good, and he delights in the law of God after the inward man, but he also realizes there is a war against his mind that brings him into captivity to the law of sin in his members. This is why Paul, even more greatly, longs to be delivered from his body of sin and death. Until his body of sin and death dies and he receives his glorified spiritual body, Paul will always have a spiritual battle going on for his mind, seeking to turn him from walking in the Spirit and enticing him to walk by the flesh, longing to bring him once again into bondage. Now Paul understands fully that in Christ his sins will not condemn him because he has been set free, but he also understands the full impact of temptation and how sin can weaken his faith, bring harm to the whole body (church) and does not bring glory to God.


Agreed again...except for it weakening his faith.


Paul doesn't say he no longer serves with the flesh the law of sin. He says "with the mind I myself serve the law of God; BUT with the flesh the law of sin." But is translated - and, also, moreover, also.

Ro 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

We can no longer be condemned for our sins, because Christ is risen again, and makes intercession for us (Ro 8:26-39), but we can still commit sin while we are in our bodies of flesh or when we give in to the fleshly lusts. You are correct in that when we walk in the Spirit we cannot sin. But do Christians never again choose to walk in the flesh? Did Paul never again choose to walk in the flesh?

And here is the basis of where we disagree. The soul of the Christian is cleansed, made righteous, and always follows after the spirit, even when our flesh sins.



We are delivered from the law of death, therefore our sins no longer condemn us or bring us death. However we will not be totally free of the bondage to the flesh until we have received our glorified spiritual bodies like His.


Agreed again.

drew
Dec 22nd 2008, 03:07 AM
Yes, the sin dwells in Paul; that is in his members, or in his body of death. We don't have to give in to this sin living in us, because God has made a way of escape with every temptation. However, we (Christians) do give in to temptation at times, and Paul was no exception, even he says, "Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me."

Paul longs to do what is good, and he delights in the law of God after the inward man, but he also realizes there is a war against his mind that brings him into captivity to the law of sin in his members. This is why Paul, even more greatly, longs to be delivered from his body of sin and death. Until his body of sin and death dies and he receives his glorified spiritual body, Paul will always have a spiritual battle going on for his mind, seeking to turn him from walking in the Spirit and enticing him to walk by the flesh, longing to bring him once again into bondage. Now Paul understands fully that in Christ his sins will not condemn him because he has been set free, but he also understands the full impact of temptation and how sin can weaken his faith, bring harm to the whole body (church) and does not bring glory to God.

Ro 7:21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
Ro 7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
Ro 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
Ro 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
Romans 7 is demonstrably not about the experience of any Christian, Paul or anyone else.

Roger, can you please give your answer to the following argument which I claim shows that the person described in Romans 7 simply cannot be a Christian:

1. The person described in Romans 7 is experiencing a "law" of sin that leads to death:

but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. 24What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death?

2. The Christian in Romans 8 is being described as having been set free from from this law of sin and death.

2because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death

3. If the position that the person in Romans 7 is a Christian is correct, - then we have the following statements:

a. The Christian is subject to the law of sin that produces death (clear statement from Romans 7)

b. The Christian is set free from the law of sin that produces death (clear statement from Romans 8)

These statements are inconsistent. Therefore, assuming we agree that the statement from Romans 8 is about the Christian, the Romans 7 cannot be descriptive of the experience of the Christian - one cannot be both subject to the effects of a law and yet also released from its effect.

Yukerboy
Dec 22nd 2008, 04:58 AM
The answer is right there.

a. The Christian's flesh is subject to the law of sin that produces death (clear statement from Romans 7) as the Christian's flesh dies.

b. The Christian's soul is set free from the law of sin that produces death (clear statement from Romans 8) as the Christian's soul has eternal life.

drew
Dec 22nd 2008, 03:35 PM
The answer is right there.

a. The Christian's flesh is subject to the law of sin that produces death (clear statement from Romans 7) as the Christian's flesh dies.

b. The Christian's soul is set free from the law of sin that produces death (clear statement from Romans 8) as the Christian's soul has eternal life.
In Romans 7, we have this:

but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members

If we adopt your "flesh" and "soul" model, and we assume that the person in Romans 7 is in fact a Christian, this verse contradicts the position you express above. Paul describes a war here. Who are the parties involved? We have the law of sin and death "in his members" and we have, according to your postion, the mind / soul that has been set free.

But what does Paul say about his mind? He says that it is a prisoner to the law in his members. How, then can you claim that the soul / mind has been set free?

RogerW
Dec 22nd 2008, 04:05 PM
All this I agree with. However, when Paul would "give in to temptation" it was no longer Paul who sinned, but the sin living within him. If it was Paul that sinned, then Paul was neither sanctified nor born of God.

And here is the basis of where we disagree. The soul of the Christian is cleansed, made righteous, and always follows after the spirit, even when our flesh sins.

Hi Yuke,

I'm certain that if we could speak face to face we would find little difference in our belief.

It seems the difference is our understanding of sanctification. You seem to see sanctification as complete, where I understand sanctification as an on-going process. There is a one-time act of God whereby He sanctifies us at conversion, and there is an on-going or process of being sanctified daily by the Holy Spirit in us. What has God done, and what are we called to do through the Spirit in us in progressive sanctification?

We are sanctified by God. Past tense, spiritually complete!

1Co 6:11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

Ac 20:32 And now, brethren, I commend you to God, and to the word of his grace, which is able to build you up, and to give you an inheritance among all them which are sanctified.

Because God has sanctified believers, bondage to sin has been broken. Again, past tense, complete!

Ro 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

When we are in Christ, having been sanctified, we have, (past tense) crucified the flesh with its affections and lusts.

Ga 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

When we have been sanctified we have put off the old man, and put on the new man. Not will, but have...past tense!

Col 3:9 Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds;
Col 3:10 And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:

Since the fact of sanctification has been (not will be) established, how shall we, who are now sanctified called to live in this life in our bodies of sin and death?

We are instructed to deal with sin that remains in us, and to be conformed to the image of God. To mortify the deeds of the body is to prove we are led by the Spirit and are the sons/daughters of God. This is a process that was not completed when we were sanctified at conversion. This is something we must do, a progressive sanctification, through the power of the Spirit in us.

Ro 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
Ro 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

As the elect of God, sanctified, and being sanctified we are to put on (not past tense; a process) all these things:

Col 3:12 Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;
Col 3:13 Forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any man have a quarrel against any: even as Christ forgave you, so also do ye.
Col 3:14 And above all these things put on charity, which is the bond of perfectness.
Col 3:15 And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to the which also ye are called in one body; and be ye thankful.
Col 3:16 Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.
Col 3:17 And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him.

We are called to speak the truth in love to grow up in Christ, because we are not yet bodily complete, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be, we shall be like Him, not are already like Him.

Eph 4:15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:

1Jo 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

We are to grow (being sanctified) in grace and knowledge because we do not yet know all things.

2Pe 3:18 But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.

We are instructed to be transformed by the renewing of our mind. We are not yet (while wearing our bodies of sin and death) of perfect minds and wills. We must not be conformed to this world, which is apparent that we can be if we are not daily renewing our minds according to His perfect will.

Ro 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

Our outward man, or flesh is perishing, but not yet put to death completely. It is with the inward man that we are renewed day by day. We must be renewed daily through progressive sanctification of the Spirit in us because while wearing our bodies of death, we are not yet perfect or without ability to fall to temptation through the outward man.

2Co 4:16 For which cause we faint not; but though our outward man perish, yet the inward man is renewed day by day.

We are not yet complete in Christ and in need of continual purging, that we may bring forth fruit.

Joh 15:2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

We have been sanctified, and we are being sanctified because sin remains in our flesh, but sin does not reign, it does not have complete power over us as it did before we were sanctified at salvation. There are no longer two natures, we have been given a new nature. The new man is being renewed daily by God. This is a process and planned from the beginning. We are dying to sin, (not yet altogether dead to sin) and are being raised to new life that is conforming (not already conformed) to the image of Christ.

When we walk in the Spirit we will not fulfill the lusts of our flesh. So we must ask ourselves, do I daily mortify the sins living in me? Ro 8:13 Do I cleanse myself daily of the filthiness of flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God? 2Co 7:1 Since I profess the name of the Lord, do I depart from all sin? 2Ti 2:19 Do I give all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge? 2Pe 1:5

If we could not sin there would be little reason for God to try and test us, yet He does. There would also be no reason to chasten His children if they cannot sin in this life. Yet He says:

1Co 11:32 But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.

As long as we are clothed with flesh and blood we MUST strive against sin. If Christians cannot sin, it would not make sense to instruct us to strive against sinning. When we sin, and we will the Father chastens and rebukes us out of love, teaching us to deny our flesh and be in subjection to the Spirit of truth, and a partaker in holiness.

Heb 12:4 Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.
Heb 12:5 And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:
Heb 12:6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
Heb 12:7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
Heb 12:8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.
Heb 12:9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?
Heb 12:10 For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness.
Heb 12:11 Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.

To sin is to be entangled and snared, a heavy weight to bear. Therefore we MUST take the sin remaining in us seriously, and strive to put away ALL sin. We can only do this looking to Jesus!

Heb 12:1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,
Heb 12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

Many Blessings,
RW

SIG
Dec 22nd 2008, 06:38 PM
The answer is right there.

a. The Christian's flesh is subject to the law of sin that produces death (clear statement from Romans 7) as the Christian's flesh dies.

b. The Christian's soul is set free from the law of sin that produces death (clear statement from Romans 8) as the Christian's soul has eternal life.

I believe Paul describes four states in Romans 7 and 8:

1. Innocence, as a baby
2. Condemned by the Law as old enough to know right from wrong but still unsaved
3. Saved but living in the flesh (a wrestling match between flesh and Spirit)
4. Saved but living in the Spirit (set free from the wrestling match)

I believe all Christians live in BOTH 3 and 4.

Sanctification is about more and more 4 and less and less 3.

Yukerboy
Dec 22nd 2008, 06:39 PM
In Romans 7, we have this:

but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members

If we adopt your "flesh" and "soul" model, and we assume that the person in Romans 7 is in fact a Christian, this verse contradicts the position you express above. Paul describes a war here. Who are the parties involved? We have the law of sin and death "in his members" and we have, according to your postion, the mind / soul that has been set free.

But what does Paul say about his mind? He says that it is a prisoner to the law in his members. How, then can you claim that the soul / mind has been set free?

While our soul has been set free from the law of sin and death, it is still imprisoned in the flesh which is under the law of sin and death.


We are instructed to deal with sin that remains in us, and to be conformed to the image of God. To mortify the deeds of the body is to prove we are led by the Spirit and are the sons/daughters of God. This is a process that was not completed when we were sanctified at conversion. This is something we must do, a progressive sanctification, through the power of the Spirit in us.

Ro 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
Ro 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.


I agree here. The only thing is, I wouldn't call it sanctification. Sanctification is a one time act done by God through the Holy Spirit to us.

The sanctification of the soul is complete, but the flesh can never be sanctified, for the flesh will always have sin abiding within it.


As the elect of God, sanctified, and being sanctified we are to put on (not past tense; a process) all these things:

Col 3:12 Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;
Col 3:13 Forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any man have a quarrel against any: even as Christ forgave you, so also do ye.
Col 3:14 And above all these things put on charity, which is the bond of perfectness.
Col 3:15 And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to the which also ye are called in one body; and be ye thankful.
Col 3:16 Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.
Col 3:17 And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him.

We are called to speak the truth in love to grow up in Christ, because we are not yet bodily complete, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be, we shall be like Him, not are already like Him.

Eph 4:15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:

1Jo 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

We are to grow (being sanctified) in grace and knowledge because we do not yet know all things.

2Pe 3:18 But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.

We are instructed to be transformed by the renewing of our mind. We are not yet (while wearing our bodies of sin and death) of perfect minds and wills. We must not be conformed to this world, which is apparent that we can be if we are not daily renewing our minds according to His perfect will.

Ro 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

Our outward man, or flesh is perishing, but not yet put to death completely. It is with the inward man that we are renewed day by day. We must be renewed daily through progressive sanctification of the Spirit in us because while wearing our bodies of death, we are not yet perfect or without ability to fall to temptation through the outward man.

This is all speaking of perseverance. This is to make your election sure. You cannot know if you are truly saved unless you have endured to the end (no such thing as blessed assurance).

As for your mind being renewed day by day, that is not to cleanse it, but to give it strength. To support it. Your mind has a huge war in front of it for the rest of your life and the only way it can persevere is through God working in you to will and act according to His good purposes.



If we could not sin there would be little reason for God to try and test us, yet He does. There would also be no reason to chasten His children if they cannot sin in this life. Yet He says:

1Co 11:32 But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.

As long as we are clothed with flesh and blood we MUST strive against sin. If Christians cannot sin, it would not make sense to instruct us to strive against sinning. When we sin, and we will the Father chastens and rebukes us out of love, teaching us to deny our flesh and be in subjection to the Spirit of truth, and a partaker in holiness.

Heb 12:4 Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.
Heb 12:5 And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:
Heb 12:6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
Heb 12:7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
Heb 12:8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.
Heb 12:9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?
Heb 12:10 For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness.
Heb 12:11 Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.

To sin is to be entangled and snared, a heavy weight to bear. Therefore we MUST take the sin remaining in us seriously, and strive to put away ALL sin. We can only do this looking to Jesus!

Heb 12:1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,
Heb 12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.


We cannot sin, but of course we are instructed to strive daily against the flesh, for that is where sin abides. Your soul is unable to be washed, then become dirty, then washed again. It is done once for all time.

And, being led by the spirit, it truly is a war, soul vs. flesh. Sometimes the flesh wins and the sin abiding within it sins, other times the soul wins and the flesh is denied.

But whenever the flesh does sin, it is not imputed to you if you are saved, for your soul strived against it and even in sin, your flesh will do the will of God.

reformedct
Dec 22nd 2008, 06:46 PM
While our soul has been set free from the law of sin and death, it is still imprisoned in the flesh which is under the law of sin and death.



I agree here. The only thing is, I wouldn't call it sanctification. Sanctification is a one time act done by God through the Holy Spirit to us.

The sanctification of the soul is complete, but the flesh can never be sanctified, for the flesh will always have sin abiding within it.



This is all speaking of perseverance. This is to make your election sure. You cannot know if you are truly saved unless you have endured to the end (no such thing as blessed assurance).

As for your mind being renewed day by day, that is not to cleanse it, but to give it strength. To support it. Your mind has a huge war in front of it for the rest of your life and the only way it can persevere is through God working in you to will and act according to His good purposes.



We cannot sin, but of course we are instructed to strive daily against the flesh, for that is where sin abides. Your soul is unable to be washed, then become dirty, then washed again. It is done once for all time.

And, being led by the spirit, it truly is a war, soul vs. flesh. Sometimes the flesh wins and the sin abiding within it sins, other times the soul wins and the flesh is denied.

But whenever the flesh does sin, it is not imputed to you if you are saved, for your soul strived against it and even in sin, your flesh will do the will of God.


as i said before, i think what yuke is saying is that a christian doesnt have a sin nature. we have an incorruptable seed. however our physical bodies and our minds still have sinful tendencies programmed into them, and we sometimes allow the flesh to seek out its own pleasure, however it is not the essence of the christian that is sinning, but sin dwelling in the members

basically i think hes saying we have one nature and one body/flesh

the body/flesh is where sin lives, the nature of the Christian is a perfect spirit born of the Holy Spirit is that right?

Yukerboy
Dec 22nd 2008, 06:54 PM
I believe Paul describes four states in Romans 7 and 8:

1. Innocence, as a baby
2. Condemned by the Law as old enough to know right from wrong but still unsaved
3. Saved but living in the flesh (a wrestling match between flesh and Spirit)
4. Saved but living in the Spirit (set free from the wrestling match)

I believe all Christians live in BOTH 3 and 4.

Sanctification is about more and more 4 and less and less 3.

What does the Bible say about sanctification?

Define Sanctification.

ProjectPeter
Dec 22nd 2008, 08:43 PM
When all things are permissible, then in all things you can do no sin. Though not that all things are profitable and worthy of rewards.So... how does one fornicate, steal, lie, murder, etc. permissibly and without sin?

Yukerboy
Dec 22nd 2008, 10:41 PM
So... how does one fornicate, steal, lie, murder, etc. permissibly and without sin?

By being born again

ProjectPeter
Dec 22nd 2008, 10:47 PM
By being born again.
So one can be a born again fornicating, lying, murdering thief? How is that born again? Sounds pretty much like the same old sinning man eh?

drew
Dec 22nd 2008, 10:49 PM
deleted own post

Yukerboy
Dec 22nd 2008, 10:49 PM
So one can be a born again fornicating, lying, murdering thief? How is that born again? Sounds pretty much like the same old sinning man eh?

By being born again, all things are permissible.

He who says he has no sin is a liar. All who are born again have sin. It abides in their flesh.

If you are born again, you cannot sin. Not that you won't do things wrong. Just that what used to be sin done in the flesh by your soul is no longer sin to your soul.

We'll use the murder example.

If one who is born again murders, it is not the one who is born again that committed the sin. It is the sin abiding in his flesh that has murdered. However, being born again, all things that his flesh does is not accounted to his soul and therefore permissible, however, he must strive daily against the flesh which is what will happen if he has been born again.

Yukerboy
Dec 22nd 2008, 10:54 PM
I have to say, yukerboy, and I do not mean this in a mean-spirited way, I have never encountered anyone who takes the position on this matter that you do.

Right or wrong, I have to say I have never heard this position expressed before.....:D

Is that good or bad? :hmm:

I was arminian and couldn't come to grips with the Scripture, then I was calvinist and couldn't come to grips with the Scripture.

The Scripture is in perfect harmony. Therefore, there had to be a way for eternal security verses to mesh with one who is born again not being able to sin.

I struggled with this for 20+ years. It is not like I sit here to be devil's advocate or something.

The only way to interpret Scripture is through Scripture.

And I make no qualms about it, when I get where I'm going, God will say "Here's where you were right, and here's where you were wrong." and not only I, but all Christians will hear that.

Yuke

Sirus
Dec 23rd 2008, 01:07 AM
YB, you seem to be teaching what Paul was accused of teaching and denied. Shall we continue in sin that grace abound? God forbid!
No? Then please explain.

Free from sin is free from the acts of sin and dead to sin is it's ineffectiveness. That is clear through language like yield not your members and sin shall not have dominion over you. Romans 6-8 is as experiential as it is positional. Anything else is not much of a gospel but another law and equal to the law. The whole point is that the gospel can not only make a man righteous positionally but in this life and the law could not.

reformedct
Dec 23rd 2008, 01:27 AM
YB, you seem to be teaching what Paul was accused of teaching and denied. Shall we continue in sin that grace abound? God forbid!
No? Then please explain.

Free from sin is free from the acts of sin and dead to sin is it's ineffectiveness. That is clear through language like yield not your members and sin shall not have dominion over you. Romans 6-8 is as experiential as it is positional. Anything else is not much of a gospel but another law and equal to the law. The whole point is that the gospel can not only make a man righteous positionally but in this life and the law could not.

i think what yuker is saying is that in this body there is sin in our members. we are never free of sin. we are free from the bondage and lordship of sin. however sin dwells in our members/flesh. The spirit and the flesh are at odds with each other. So in the Spirit, the Christian does not and cannot sin, in the flesh there is sin and the desires of sin. when we agree and follow those desires we are following the flesh, but it is not us who are sinning but our flesh

i think thats what yuker is saying and i think that may actually be very accurate, however i do not claim to know everything about this

Thomas1621
Dec 23rd 2008, 01:57 AM
By being born again, all things are permissible.

He who says he has no sin is a liar. All who are born again have sin. It abides in their flesh.

If you are born again, you cannot sin. Not that you won't do things wrong. Just that what used to be sin done in the flesh by your soul is no longer sin to your soul.

We'll use the murder example.

If one who is born again murders, it is not the one who is born again that committed the sin. It is the sin abiding in his flesh that has murdered. However, being born again, all things that his flesh does is not accounted to his soul and therefore permissible, however, he must strive daily against the flesh which is what will happen if he has been born again.
wow..., that's scary :eek:

Yukerboy
Dec 23rd 2008, 02:00 AM
YB, you seem to be teaching what Paul was accused of teaching and denied. Shall we continue in sin that grace abound? God forbid!
No? Then please explain.

Free from sin is free from the acts of sin and dead to sin is it's ineffectiveness. That is clear through language like yield not your members and sin shall not have dominion over you. Romans 6-8 is as experiential as it is positional. Anything else is not much of a gospel but another law and equal to the law. The whole point is that the gospel can not only make a man righteous positionally but in this life and the law could not.

I believe that everything is permissible for the Christian. That would include sin.

Now, being free from sin means that we can no longer commit sin. Sin is ineffective to us. What was once sin was dirtying our soul, but now our soul is sanctified, once for all time.

Now, I am not teaching "You can't sin, so sin all you want."

I am teaching "You can't sin, so do what you want." And, if you are born again, what you want to do is not sinful. If you are led by the Spirit, what you want to do is good, though the sin you don't want to do, that your flesh will do, from time to time, against the wishes of your soul.

God works in the one who is born again to will and work according to His good purposes.

ProjectPeter
Dec 23rd 2008, 02:03 AM
By being born again, all things are permissible.

He who says he has no sin is a liar. All who are born again have sin. It abides in their flesh.

If you are born again, you cannot sin. Not that you won't do things wrong. Just that what used to be sin done in the flesh by your soul is no longer sin to your soul.

We'll use the murder example.

If one who is born again murders, it is not the one who is born again that committed the sin. It is the sin abiding in his flesh that has murdered. However, being born again, all things that his flesh does is not accounted to his soul and therefore permissible, however, he must strive daily against the flesh which is what will happen if he has been born again.Do you honestly think that Paul taught that any of those sins were permissable? That would be accusing Paul of Nicolatianism which Scripture makes clear is damnable and as well... Paul makes it clear that he never taught any such.

This sort of teaching is amazing really. Totally goes against Scripture, even Paul's writing... yet folks still buy into the whole "the devil made me do it" doctrine.

If it was permissable... then it is allowed. If it is allowed then it is allowed and thus no need to wage war fighting against it. That is just skewed logic all the way around. ;)

Sirus
Dec 23rd 2008, 02:03 AM
i think what yuker is saying is that in this body there is sin in our members. we are never free of sin. we are free from the bondage and lordship of sin. however sin dwells in our members/flesh. The spirit and the flesh are at odds with each other. So in the Spirit, the Christian does not and cannot sin, in the flesh there is sin and the desires of sin. when we agree and follow those desires we are following the flesh, but it is not us who are sinning but our flesh

i think thats what yuker is saying and i think that may actually be very accurate, however i do not claim to know everything about thisRomans 6 says free from sin 3x.

The flesh is a part of our nature and a part of 'us' that was crucified and that was necessary so we could be born of the Spirit and therefore born again. Paul said we live in the flesh but do not war after the flesh. He also said we are not in the flesh. Contradiction? No. We are not in the flesh positionally and we are not in the flesh when we overcome the flesh by faith in our crucifixion, bringing our position into our experience. When we sin, we are in the flesh and therefore we, the new man, sins, not the old man because the old man died when Christ died. The "I' that didn't sin is the position, but we must all stand before the judgment seat of Christ to give an account of the deeds done in the body. Nothing is said about those deeds being before one is born again, in fact much of the NT says we have a greater judgment because we know better and have been provided a way of escape.

Yukerboy
Dec 23rd 2008, 02:04 AM
wow..., that's scary :eek:

Why? What scares you?

ProjectPeter
Dec 23rd 2008, 02:04 AM
Is that good or bad? :hmm:

I was arminian and couldn't come to grips with the Scripture, then I was calvinist and couldn't come to grips with the Scripture.

The Scripture is in perfect harmony. Therefore, there had to be a way for eternal security verses to mesh with one who is born again not being able to sin.

I struggled with this for 20+ years. It is not like I sit here to be devil's advocate or something.

The only way to interpret Scripture is through Scripture.

And I make no qualms about it, when I get where I'm going, God will say "Here's where you were right, and here's where you were wrong." and not only I, but all Christians will hear that.

Yuke
Show me in Scripture (other than what you believe it is saying) where it makes clear that it is fine to be all of those things I listed... Any other spot in Scripture?

Yukerboy
Dec 23rd 2008, 02:11 AM
Do you honestly think that Paul taught that any of those sins were permissable? That would be accusing Paul of Nicolatianism which Scripture makes clear is damnable and as well... Paul makes it clear that he never taught any such.

This sort of teaching is amazing really. Totally goes against Scripture, even Paul's writing... yet folks still buy into the whole "the devil made me do it" doctrine.

If it was permissable... then it is allowed. If it is allowed then it is allowed and thus no need to wage war fighting against it. That is just skewed logic all the way around. ;)

Paul taught all things are permissible, but not all things are profitable.

If what I say is against Scripture then prove it. I am willing to listen. You think I enjoy going against the grain on this?

Just because something is allowed doesn't make it right. We are allowed to do all things, however, one must make his election sure with fear and trembling. It is easy for one to say "Oh, I'm saved and cannot sin, so I shall do wrong all the time.", but the fact remains that he may be one of those that Jesus says "I never knew you".

Also, you bring up the term Nicolatianism. Show Nicolatianism.

Yukerboy
Dec 23rd 2008, 02:16 AM
Show me in Scripture (other than what you believe it is saying) where it makes clear that it is fine to be all of those things I listed... Any other spot in Scripture?

If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.

You'll believe what you want here, but the fact is God purifies us from all unrighteousness.

All means all. There is no more unrighteousness in that which God has purified, or God is a liar. And God has purified the soul of one who has been born again.

ProjectPeter
Dec 23rd 2008, 02:18 AM
Paul taught all things are permissible, but not all things are profitable.

If what I say is against Scripture then prove it. I am willing to listen. You think I enjoy going against the grain on this?

Just because something is allowed doesn't make it right. We are allowed to do all things, however, one must make his election sure with fear and trembling. It is easy for one to say "Oh, I'm saved and cannot sin, so I shall do wrong all the time.", but the fact remains that he may be one of those that Jesus says "I never knew you".

Also, you bring up the term Nicolatianism. Show Nicolatianism.
If Scripture tells you not to sin all throughout it... why do you think that Paul is saying all of the sudden that it is now fine to sin? Do you think that Jesus died so that we could now sin and call it okay because what the heck... we have grace now?

If Paul says simply... "stop sinning" then why do you think Paul would say it is permissable?

It goes so against Scripture that even many of the newer translations are putting that in quotation marks because there is no way that Paul would say what he does about sin and then say it is permissable. That would go totally against his very own teaching in the very same book. That is a teaching that the Nicolatian folks taught... it was deemed heresy by the writers of the New Testament... even Paul.

I don't have to prove that sin isn't permissable. You said to let Scripture interpret Scripture... so where do you read elsewhere in Scripture that sin is allowable? That would be Scripture interpreting Scripture... so far all you have done is interpret Scripture yourself to say that sin is permissable. That isn't what Paul was saying. ;)

ProjectPeter
Dec 23rd 2008, 02:19 AM
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.

You'll believe what you want here, but the fact is God purifies us from all unrighteousness.

All means all. There is no more unrighteousness in that which God has purified, or God is a liar. And God has purified the soul of one who has been born again.
Why do we have to confess sin if sin is permissable? I assume that you know what the word permissable means... right? If it is allowed then it is allowed. There would be no reason to confess it. Shoot... if it is allowed then it ain't sin. Allowed sin goes totally against the very nature of God don't you think?

ProjectPeter
Dec 23rd 2008, 02:21 AM
And Nicolatianism... you can read where John mentions it in the letters to the seven churches in the book of Revelation. A quick historical search will explain to you the teaching of the doctrine. It is mentioned elsewhere... even in Paul's writing where he mentions folks accusing him even of teaching what you say he is teaching. As someone pointed out already... Paul's response was "God forbid!"

Yukerboy
Dec 23rd 2008, 02:38 AM
If Scripture tells you not to sin all throughout it... why do you think that Paul is saying all of the sudden that it is now fine to sin? Do you think that Jesus died so that we could now sin and call it okay because what the heck... we have grace now?

If Paul says simply... "stop sinning" then why do you think Paul would say it is permissable?

It goes so against Scripture that even many of the newer translations are putting that in quotation marks because there is no way that Paul would say what he does about sin and then say it is permissable. That would go totally against his very own teaching in the very same book. That is a teaching that the Nicolatian folks taught... it was deemed heresy by the writers of the New Testament... even Paul.

I don't have to prove that sin isn't permissable. You said to let Scripture interpret Scripture... so where do you read elsewhere in Scripture that sin is allowable? That would be Scripture interpreting Scripture... so far all you have done is interpret Scripture yourself to say that sin is permissable. That isn't what Paul was saying. ;)

It was Paul that added the quotation marks as the Corinthians were quoting Paul. However, Paul then added to what he said "Everything is permissible, but not everything is profitable. Everything is permissible, but not everything is constructive."

You, my brothers, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the sinful nature ; rather, serve one another in love.

We are free to do as we wish. Make no mistake. And what one who is born again wishes to do is serve one another in love.

Let go of your preconceived notions! Do not think like sinful man where sin is all you can want to do. No, we are called to be holy. You view it as sin all you want. I view it as do all the good I can.


Why do we have to confess sin if sin is permissable? I assume that you know what the word permissable means... right? If it is allowed then it is allowed. There would be no reason to confess it. Shoot... if it is allowed then it ain't sin. Allowed sin goes totally against the very nature of God don't you think?

For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance—now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant.

Being no longer under law, but under grace (as Paul said) and sin being the transgression of the law (as John said) and that one who is born again cannot sin (as John said) we are free from the sins committed under the first covenant (as Paul? said).

It was sin up until we were freed from the law by becoming born again.


And Nicolatianism... you can read where John mentions it in the letters to the seven churches in the book of Revelation. A quick historical search will explain to you the teaching of the doctrine. It is mentioned elsewhere... even in Paul's writing where he mentions folks accusing him even of teaching what you say he is teaching. As someone pointed out already... Paul's response was "God forbid!"

I know what the Bible says about Nicolatianism, I asked what you say about Nicolaitianism.

Paul said shall we sin that grace may abound? God forbid!

I never argued that. We shall not sin that grace may abound. As a matter of fact, not only shall we not sin, we cannot sin. We died to sin, how can we live in it any longer?

Yuke

ProjectPeter
Dec 23rd 2008, 02:46 AM
It was Paul that added the quotation marks as the Corinthians were quoting Paul. However, Paul then added to what he said "Everything is permissible, but not everything is profitable. Everything is permissible, but not everything is constructive."

You, my brothers, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the sinful nature ; rather, serve one another in love.

We are free to do as we wish. Make no mistake. And what one who is born again wishes to do is serve one another in love.

Let go of your preconceived notions! Do not think like sinful man where sin is all you can want to do. No, we are called to be holy. You view it as sin all you want. I view it as do all the good I can.



For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance—now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant.

Being no longer under law, but under grace (as Paul said) and sin being the transgression of the law (as John said) and that one who is born again cannot sin (as John said) we are free from the sins committed under the first covenant (as Paul? said).

It was sin up until we were freed from the law by becoming born again.



I know what the Bible says about Nicolatianism, I asked what you say about Nicolaitianism.

Paul said shall we sin that grace may abound? God forbid!

I never argued that. We shall not sin that grace may abound. As a matter of fact, not only shall we not sin, we cannot sin. We died to sin, how can we live in it any longer?

Yuke
So simple question. Do you believe that Jesus Christ died so that we could all continue in sin?

Yukerboy
Dec 23rd 2008, 02:51 AM
So simple question. Do you believe that Jesus Christ died so that we could all continue in sin?

Simple answer. No.

ProjectPeter
Dec 23rd 2008, 02:53 AM
Simple answer. No.
Then that is contrary to what you are saying here... not sure how it is that you don't see that.

reformedct
Dec 23rd 2008, 02:56 AM
i may be wrong but i think permissible simply means things such as freedom from jewish laws concerning food and those things. lol i dont think he meant adultery, fornication and all those things

a Christian human seems to be made of two components:

before conversion: dead man, sinful flesh

after conversion: living man, sinful flesh

the sinful man died and was made new, but our members are still affected by sin. for example if we looked at naked pictures before we got saved, those memories dont just disappear. those physical urges don't always just dissapear.

the new man has power over the flesh, but the Christian human, even though he does not have a sinful nature( as far as the new man born of Spirit), can still choose to sin. as we see with Adam who knew no sin. We can still choose to follow the flesh. this is not what we should do, we are to put sin to death and live holy. if we sin we must confess and repent immediately

however i dont think we lose our salvation at the point of committing a sin.
so it seems that the "new man" never sins. but the HUMAN can still choose sin

also, some use 1st John to argue HUMAN moral perfection, however i find this direct interpretation to have some holes:

1st John also says whoever confesses Jesus as the Christ is born of God

but how many false teachers have proffessed Christ as Lord but taught all kinds of false things as well? we can't just say, well 1st Jon says whoever confesses is born of God

i feel that that is the same way people interpret Johns verses about committing sin

outside of the Bible, simply look around. No HUMAN on this Earth right now has lived a morally perfect sinless life including thought word and deed for more than 24 hours.

even Peter was rebuked by Paul for acting amiss in his teaching. But it seems that if Christ died for all of our sins, as we walk with Him, we may stumble, as did every person in the OT had problems. all the sudden in the new testament we live as humans in sinless perfection?

this does not mean that we sin thatgrace may abound either, because that form of thinking is evidence that a person doesn't really know Jesus

paul said he dies dialy

doesnt that mean his flesh is still alive and he must keep it in check?

Brother Mark
Dec 23rd 2008, 02:57 AM
Paul said shall we sin that grace may abound? God forbid!

I never argued that. We shall not sin that grace may abound. As a matter of fact, not only shall we not sin, we cannot sin. We died to sin, how can we live in it any longer?

Yuke

Why speak of a hypothetical if it is not possible? Jesus said if a brother sins against me, that I must forgive him. If it is impossible for a brother to sin, then why the command to forgive? :hmm:

Is your soul and flesh born of God? Or did you have those before you were born again?

Yukerboy
Dec 23rd 2008, 02:59 AM
Then that is contrary to what you are saying here... not sure how it is that you don't see that.

Not sure how you do see that.

Christ's death has abolished the law for those who are born again. Christ's death made it impossible for those who are born again to sin.

How is that saying Jesus Christ died so that we could all (are able to)continue in sin?

I am confirming the exact opposite.

Jesus Christ died so that we cannot (are unable to) continue in sin.

As Paul said, we died to sin, how can we live in it any longer? Answer is, we cannot.

Brother Mark
Dec 23rd 2008, 03:03 AM
Jesus Christ died so that we cannot (are unable to) continue in sin.

As Paul said, we died to sin, how can we live in it any longer? Answer is, we cannot.

Is there not a difference in living in sin (i.e. a lifestyle of sin) and falling in sin? Did Paul rebuke Peter for sin after Peter was filled with the Holy Spirit and after Peter was saved?

Yukerboy
Dec 23rd 2008, 03:05 AM
Why speak of a hypothetical if it is not possible? Jesus said if a brother sins against me, that I must forgive him. If it is impossible for a brother to sin, then why the command to forgive? :hmm:

Is your soul and flesh born of God? Or did you have those before you were born again?

Two things on that point. One is the brother may not be saved, which means he can sin. The other is that the brother sins against you. Sinning against you and sinning against God are two seperate things.

As for the flesh and soul being born...

I would say that the flesh is not born of God before or after salvation and the Spirit is born of God after Salvation.

Brother Mark
Dec 23rd 2008, 03:07 AM
Two things on that point. One is the brother may not be saved, which means he can sin. The other is that the brother sins against you. Sinning against you and sinning against God are two seperate things.

Are you sure? When David murdered Uriah, he wrote "against you and you only have I sinned oh God".



As for the flesh and soul being born...

I would say that the flesh is not born of God before or after salvation and the Spirit is born of God after Salvation.

So if the flesh is not born of God but the Spirit is, then perhaps those verses refer to your spirit and not your flesh. For the same Spirit that wrote that which is born of God cannot sin, also wrote "If a man says he has no sin, he is a liar". If a saved man cannot sin, then he has no sin. :saint:

Sirus
Dec 23rd 2008, 03:10 AM
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.

You'll believe what you want here, but the fact is God purifies us from all unrighteousness.

All means all. There is no more unrighteousness in that which God has purified, or God is a liar. And God has purified the soul of one who has been born again.This is true but faith naturally produces works, and scripture says good not bad.

On a side; that verse btw is when we are born again, not intended for the protestant confession. We are completely forgiven and cleansed. No such thing as an unforgiven sin for a believer. If someone would like to debate that, start another thread.

Yukerboy
Dec 23rd 2008, 03:13 AM
Is there not a difference in living in sin (i.e. a lifestyle of sin) and falling in sin? Did Paul rebuke Peter for sin after Peter was filled with the Holy Spirit and after Peter was saved?

Paul never stated that Peter sinned, but that Peter was wrong. Peter was as wrong as a calvinist considers an arminian and vice versa. That does not mean that one group is sinful and the other righteous. No, one is wrong and the other is less wrong.

As for living in sin and falling in sin, I would consider it the same. You either are saved and will persevere to the end, or you won't.

Thomas1621
Dec 23rd 2008, 03:22 AM
Why? What scares you?

your conclusion to the meaning of being saved

Brother Mark
Dec 23rd 2008, 03:23 AM
Paul never stated that Peter sinned, but that Peter was wrong. Peter was as wrong as a calvinist considers an arminian and vice versa. That does not mean that one group is sinful and the other righteous. No, one is wrong and the other is less wrong.

As for living in sin and falling in sin, I would consider it the same. You either are saved and will persevere to the end, or you won't.

And what about the man in first corinthians that sinned and was yet, later restored? Did Peter sin against the Lord when he denied him?

Paul rebuked Peter openly, not over doctrine. But over how he treated people. Did Peter love the gentiles as he loved the Jews? Here's what Paul had to say...

Is refusing to walk uprightly not a sin? And what of the verse in 1 John, where the holy Spirit says that anyone who says he has no sin is a liar. :hmm:

Gal 2:14

14 But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?
KJV

Did John Mark sin when he broke his commitment to Paul?

Did the sons of thunder sin when they offered to rain fire down from heaven on the Samaritans?

Did the apostles sin when Jesus chastised them for having little faith, when we know that Hebrews says without faith, it is impossible to please God?

Or what of 1 John, when it says if we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us. What sins are we to confess?

Gal 2:11

11 But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed.
KJV

The word blamed there, means to find fault with. Paul was concerned about being a castaway. Why warn so hard against sin, when writing to the churches if sin could not be committed?

Brother Mark
Dec 23rd 2008, 03:28 AM
Two things on that point. One is the brother may not be saved, which means he can sin. The other is that the brother sins against you. Sinning against you and sinning against God are two seperate things.

1 Cor 8:12

12 But when ye sin so against the brethren, and wound their weak conscience, ye sin against Christ.
KJV

Yukerboy
Dec 23rd 2008, 03:34 AM
Are you sure? When David murdered Uriah, he wrote "against you and you only have I sinned oh God".




So if the flesh is not born of God but the Spirit is, then perhaps those verses refer to your spirit and not your flesh. For the same Spirit that wrote that which is born of God cannot sin, also wrote "If a man says he has no sin, he is a liar". If a saved man cannot sin, then he has no sin. :saint:

Yes, I am sure. As for John's writings, see post #12


your conclusion to the meaning of being saved

Being saved means to be granted salvation. Salvation means to be with Christ in the Kingdom of God. Being in the Kingdom of God means that not having a blemish. Not having a blemish means having not sinned.


And what about the man in first corinthians that sinned and was yet, later restored?

Show the passage. Right away I would think either he wasn't born again and sinned, or was born again and did not sin. He may have been a part of the faith but never belonged to us for the only ones that belong to us remain with us. Some go out from us, but were never of us.


Did Peter sin against the Lord when he denied him?


Absolutely.


Paul rebuked Peter openly, not over doctrine. But over how he treated people. Did Peter love the gentiles as he loved the Jews?

Yes he did.


Is refusing to walk uprightly not a sin?

Yes it is.


And what of the verse in 1 John, where the holy Spirit says that anyone who says he has no sin is a liar. :hmm:


Post #12. I never denied we have sin abiding in our flesh. If we say sin doesn't abide in us, we lie.


Or what of 1 John, when it says if we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us. What sins are we to confess?

The sins we have committed. After being born again, we cannot sin.


Did John Mark sin when he broke his commitment to Paul?

Show me.


Did the sons of thunder sin when they offered to rain fire down from heaven on the Samaritans?

Did the apostles sin when Jesus chastised them for having little faith, when we know that Hebrews says without faith, it is impossible to please God?


Were they born again before or after Christ's death?


Why warn so hard against sin, when writing to the churches if sin could not be committed?

To make your election sure. You can believe you are saved and not be saved. You only know once you have endured to the end.

Yukerboy
Dec 23rd 2008, 03:41 AM
1 Cor 8:12

12 But when ye sin so against the brethren, and wound their weak conscience, ye sin against Christ.
KJV

If you sin against Christ, it is because you did not do what you do out of love or out of faith. Everything not done out of faith is sin.

Therefore, by sinning in this way, you would have never been born again for John states one who is born again cannot sin. You will not persevere. You have destroyed your own brethren through your knowledge. You are a murderer and a murderer hates his brother.

Brother Mark
Dec 23rd 2008, 03:44 AM
Show the passage. Right away I would think either he wasn't born again and sinned, or was born again and did not sin. He may have been a part of the faith but never belonged to us for the only ones that belong to us remain with us. Some go out from us, but were never of us.

Check out 1 Cor 5. Of course, that brother was restored in 2 Cor. ;)


Yes it is.If refusing to walk uprightly is a sin, then here is what Paul said concerning Peter in Galatians.

Gal 2:11-14

11 But when Cephas came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he stood condemned. 12 For prior to the coming of certain men from James, he used to eat with the Gentiles; but when they came, he began to withdraw and hold himself aloof, fearing the party of the circumcision. 13 And the rest of the Jews joined him in hypocrisy, with the result that even Barnabas was carried away by their hypocrisy. 14 But when I saw that they were not straightforward about the truth of the gospel, I said to Cephas in the presence of all, "If you, being a Jew, live like the Gentiles and not like the Jews, how is it that you compel the Gentiles to live like Jews?
NASB

Here, we see Paul saying that Peter and Barnabas both were committing the sin of hypocrisy. In another version, he called it not walking uprightly.

Gal 2:14

14 But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?
KJV


Post #12. I never denied we have sin abiding in our flesh. If we say sin doesn't abide in us, we lie.Jesus said that what was in the heart comes out. So if sin is inside, will it not surface?


The sins we have committed. After being born again, we cannot sin.Peter denied Christ after being born again. Remember, Jesus taught about being born again to Nicodemus. Being born again is not just a new testament doctrine. It was one that Jesus expected Nicodemus to be aware of. Peter was born again before Jesus died.


Show me. Acts 15:36-41

36 And after some days Paul said to Barnabas, "Let us return and visit the brethren in every city in which we proclaimed the word of the Lord, and see how they are." 37 And Barnabas was desirous of taking John, called Mark, along with them also. 38 But Paul kept insisting that they should not take him along who had deserted them in Pamphylia and had not gone with them to the work. 39 And there arose such a sharp disagreement that they separated from one another, and Barnabas took Mark with him and sailed away to Cyprus. 40 But Paul chose Silas and departed, being committed by the brethren to the grace of the Lord. 41 And he was traveling through Syria and Cilicia, strengthening the churches.
NASB


Were they born again before or after Christ's death?Before. Did God not promise Israel a new heart? Did he give Saul a new heart upon his conversion before he became king?


To make your election sure. You can believe you are saved and not be saved. You only know once you have endured to the end.Yet, John said he wrote 1 John so that we could know. There is a reason you have not heard your doctrine preached anywhere brother Yuke.

Brother Mark
Dec 23rd 2008, 03:45 AM
If you sin against Christ, it is because you did not do what you do out of love or out of faith. Everything not done out of faith is sin.

Therefore, by sinning in this way, you would have never been born again for John states one who is born again cannot sin. You will not persevere. You have destroyed your own brethren through your knowledge. You are a murderer and a murderer hates his brother.

Yet, Paul wrote it to believers, not unbelievers. He even called them Saints in the beginning of his book.

I thought we had already established that the flesh and soul are not born of God. Cannot the flesh and soul sin?

SIG
Dec 23rd 2008, 03:47 AM
What does the Bible say about sanctification?

Define Sanctification. (From post # 72)

Sanctification is the process of being set apart to do God's will.

More on this from Let Us Reason Ministries:

Confusing the Doctrines of Justification and Sanctification

The Bible teaches that one is justified once they trust in Christ (through faith (Rom. 3:24-25; 4:5;5:1,l8).

Justification speaks of a legal declaration that gives one a right standing before God. It is a one time event. It involves an imputed righteousness of Christ in which we, although we are sinners, are pronounced "not guilty" of sin as in a court of law. We are cleared of any charges against us. Christ's sacrifice means he was punished in our place, satisfying the demands of the law, and God's justice upon sin.

Sanctification begins with justification - it means to separate one unto Christ's service. We are both sanctified and justified when we exercise faith in the gospel for salvation. Sanctification is a continual work of the Holy Spirit in the believer to conform us to the image of God's Son. It is the Holy Spirit's work to bring practical holiness and the fruit of the Spirit in one's life. This is continual process until one is taken to be with the Lord.

Glorification is the ending of the sanctification process and occurs when we get to Heaven, either by means of death, rapture, or resurrection. We are then in an eternal state and have been made righteous in our nature.

Most cults ignore the work of justification, focus on a person's sanctification, saying that it is our performance that will justify someone and clear their guilt before God. This view avoids the completed work of Christ and takes the emphasis off of grace and puts it on one's performance. They will either combine sanctification with justification or say that we have neither, that they are both a future tense like glorification.

However, the Bible states in Rom. 8:30 that we are already seated in heavenly places. It's a done deal. "those He justified, He also glorified." God always completes His work He started, he is the author and finisher of our faith.

Yukerboy
Dec 23rd 2008, 03:53 AM
Yet, Paul wrote it to believers, not unbelievers. He even called them Saints in the beginning of his book.

I thought we had already established that the flesh and soul are not born of God. Cannot the flesh and soul sin?

If I write a letter to multiple people I would say "To James, Paul, and Peter.

Just as Paul wrote to "The church in Corinth, those sanctified in Christ, and those everywhere who call on the name of the Lord."

He wrote it to those who were sanctified and those who believed for a time, then fell away.

The flesh and the soul are not born of God, they both sin, but only one is cleansed.

Brother Mark
Dec 23rd 2008, 04:00 AM
If I write a letter to multiple people I would say "To James, Paul, and Peter.

Just as Paul wrote to "The church in Corinth, those sanctified in Christ, and those everywhere who call on the name of the Lord."

He wrote it to those who were sanctified and those who believed for a time, then fell away.

The flesh and the soul are not born of God, they both sin, but only one is cleansed.

The cleansing of the soul is sanctification. The spirit within you doesn't sin for it is born of God. The soul you have had since conception can and still does sin. Peter committed the sin of hypocrisy and Paul wrote of it in Acts. John Mark deserted Paul and Barnabas on a missionary journey but was later restored.

Paul instructed the stronger brother, to give up his freedom so as not to sin against the weaker brother. Here's the context of sinning against Christ... Paul is writing concerning a weaker brother and a stronger brother...

1 Cor 8:10-13
10 For if someone sees you, who have knowledge, dining in an idol's temple, will not his conscience, if he is weak, be strengthened to eat things sacrificed to idols? 11 For through your knowledge he who is weak is ruined, the brother for whose sake Christ died. 12 And thus, by sinning against the brethren and wounding their conscience when it is weak, you sin against Christ. 13 Therefore, if food causes my brother to stumble, I will never eat meat again, that I might not cause my brother to stumble.
NASB

Now, since you believe that Christ only died for those that are saved, Paul here makes it clear that this weaker brother could be coaxed into sinning. This example is one brother causing another brother to stumble and Paul calls it a sin against Christ. He's talking about two believers.

As I mentioned earlier, there is a reason your doctrine is not being preached anywhere. :saint: Take note of that.

voicenthewildernes
Dec 23rd 2008, 04:02 AM
If you sin against Christ, it is because you did not do what you do out of love or out of faith. Everything not done out of faith is sin.

Therefore, by sinning in this way, you would have never been born again for John states one who is born again cannot sin. You will not persevere. You have destroyed your own brethren through your knowledge. You are a murderer and a murderer hates his brother.
One who is born again is not immune from sin of this world. I believe you are taking what John says out of context. One who is born again and resides in a corruptible flesh body can still submit to sin. Once saved our spirit is quickened not our flesh body. The result is an inperfect temple. If your idea of being saved has elevated you to perfection you are dead wrong. Being saved is where one submits to the Holy Spirit daily, by and through the Holy Spirit this flesh body can overcome sin. While being able to overcome sin we are still in an inperfect state of being which by nature is prone to sinful desires. Perfection is attained when upon His return your flesh body falls away and your perfected body rises up to meet Christ in the air. Can one be saved and still be able to sin? I think so, but it is Christ's duty to do the will of His Father in that He will not lose even one the God has given to Him. That was para phrasing of the book of John. So In my understanding once saved always saved according to the will of God and maintained by Jesus Christ. Besides, he who is without sin let him cast the first stone at a sinful saved soul. Christ be our Redeemer and our Judge, we are neither and shouldn't even try.


Voice

reformedct
Dec 23rd 2008, 04:09 AM
One who is born again is not immune from sin of this world. I believe you are taking what John says out of context. One who is born again and resides in a corruptible fresh body can still submit to sin. Once saved our spirit is quickened not our flesh body. The result is an inperfect temple. If your idea of being saved has elevated you to perfection you are dead wrong. Being saved is where one submits to the Holy Spirit daily, by and through the Holy Spirit this flesh body can overcome sin. While being able to overcome sin we are still in an inperfect state of being which by nature is prone to sinful desires. Perfection is attained when upon His return your flesh body falls away and your perfected body rises up to meet Christ in the air. Can one be saved and still be able to sin? I think so, but it is Christ's duty to do the will of His Father in that He will not lose even one the God has given to Him. That was para phrasing of the book of John. So In my understanding once saved always saved according to the will of God and maintained by Jesus Christ. Besides, he who is without sin let him cast the first stone at a sinful saved soul. Christ be our Redeemer and our Judge, we are neither and shouldn't even try.


Voice

yes this is why Paul CONSTANTLY told the churches

DONT submit yourselves to sin

DONT let sin reign in your body

DONT use your members as instruments of unrighteousness

DONT you know that you are the temple of the Holy Spirit

if christians cannot submit to sin he would not say these,

however, notice how all the issues of sin are in the flesh. the spirit of the believer does not sin. that is why the spirit is at odds with the flesh. However the Christian can choose to submit even though he has power over sin. The spirit does not sin, but the Christian gives his members as instruments of unrighteousness.

Yukerboy
Dec 23rd 2008, 04:22 AM
The cleansing of the soul is sanctification. The spirit within you doesn't sin for it is born of God. The soul you have had since conception can and still does sin. Peter committed the sin of hypocrisy and Paul wrote of it in Acts. John Mark deserted Paul and Barnabas on a missionary journey but was later restored.

Paul instructed the stronger brother, to give up his freedom so as not to sin against the weaker brother. Here's the context of sinning against Christ... Paul is writing concerning a weaker brother and a stronger brother...

1 Cor 8:10-13
10 For if someone sees you, who have knowledge, dining in an idol's temple, will not his conscience, if he is weak, be strengthened to eat things sacrificed to idols? 11 For through your knowledge he who is weak is ruined, the brother for whose sake Christ died. 12 And thus, by sinning against the brethren and wounding their conscience when it is weak, you sin against Christ. 13 Therefore, if food causes my brother to stumble, I will never eat meat again, that I might not cause my brother to stumble.
NASB

Now, since you believe that Christ only died for those that are saved, Paul here makes it clear that this weaker brother could be coaxed into sinning. This example is one brother causing another brother to stumble and Paul calls it a sin against Christ. He's talking about two believers.

As I mentioned earlier, there is a reason your doctrine is not being preached anywhere. :saint: Take note of that.

I never said Christ died for only those who are saved. He is talking about two people who currently believe, but nothing says they are born again, because the only ones who are born again are those that persevere. If one has no faith or sins, then obviously, he is not born again.

As for the reason this doctrine is not preached is because of fear of people like you. You think I enjoy being the punching bag?

I don't, but I have no fear. :)


One who is born again is not immune from sin of this world. I believe you are taking what John says out of context. One who is born again and resides in a corruptible fresh body can still submit to sin. Once saved our spirit is quickened not our flesh body. The result is an inperfect temple. If your idea of being saved has elevated you to perfection you are dead wrong. Being saved is where one submits to the Holy Spirit daily, by and through the Holy Spirit this flesh body can overcome sin. While being able to overcome sin we are still in an inperfect state of being which by nature is prone to sinful desires. Perfection is attained when upon His return your flesh body falls away and your perfected body rises up to meet Christ in the air. Can one be saved and still be able to sin? I think so, but it is Christ's duty to do the will of His Father in that He will not lose even one the God has given to Him. That was para phrasing of the book of John. So In my understanding once saved always saved according to the will of God and maintained by Jesus Christ. Besides, he who is without sin let him cast the first stone at a sinful saved soul. Christ be our Redeemer and our Judge, we are neither and shouldn't even try.


As I said before, when one says "taken out of context" one means "I don't care what the Scripture says, I'm holding on to what I believe."


Can one be saved and still be able to sin? I think so,

And there is the proof.

Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.

Surprisingly, the majority of the rest of the post agrees with me.

Yukerboy
Dec 23rd 2008, 04:25 AM
yes this is why Paul CONSTANTLY told the churches

DONT submit yourselves to sin

DONT let sin reign in your body

DONT use your members as instruments of unrighteousness

DONT you know that you are the temple of the Holy Spirit

if christians cannot submit to sin he would not say these,

however, notice how all the issues of sin are in the flesh. the spirit of the believer does not sin. that is why the spirit is at odds with the flesh. However the Christian can choose to submit even though he has power over sin. The spirit does not sin, but the Christian gives his members as instruments of unrighteousness.

Exactly!

The other reason is to make your election sure! The only way to do that is to know you do right! All of this is to ensure you endure to the end!

Brother Mark
Dec 23rd 2008, 04:29 AM
I never said Christ died for only those who are saved. He is talking about two people who currently believe, but nothing says they are born again, because the only ones who are born again are those that persevere. If one has no faith or sins, then obviously, he is not born again.

As for the reason this doctrine is preached is because of fear of people like you.

I have no fear. :)

Ok brother Yuke. I had hoped to make a decent case and give you some things to think about. The passage in Corinthians was written to brothers in Christ.


And there is the proof.

Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.

Surprisingly, the majority of the rest of the post agrees with me.

Yet, John Mark deserted Paul. Peter and Barnabas both fell to hypocrisy. The man in 1 Cor was full of sin and disciplined, yet later restored.

Before I go my way...

How long have you been saved?

Sirus
Dec 23rd 2008, 04:45 AM
(From post # 72)

Sanctification is the process of being set apart to do God's will.

Sanctification begins with justification - it means to separate one unto Christ's service. We are both sanctified and justified when we exercise faith in the gospel for salvation. Sanctification is a continual work of the Holy Spirit in the believer to conform us to the image of God's Son. It is the Holy Spirit's work to bring practical holiness and the fruit of the Spirit in one's life. This is continual process until one is taken to be with the Lord.

However, the Bible states in Rom. 8:30 that we are already seated in heavenly places. It's a done deal. "those He justified, He also glorified." God always completes His work He started, he is the author and finisher of our faith. Sanctification is by faith just as justification.

No matter what you do will not be anymore sanctified in 20 years than you are the day you are born again. If you are, you are sanctified by works, but Jesus said we are sanctified by faith.

Also, funny how they say "those He justified, He also glorified." and not

1Co 6:11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

Sirus
Dec 23rd 2008, 04:51 AM
Ok brother Yuke.

How long have you been saved?
He said something about 20 years but that's no marvel....
I was saved 15 before I realized I was already dead :pp
Some just don't get it because they haven't been taught the whole gospel and are seeing through mans theological eyes. I can say that because I am as guilty as the rest.

reformedct
Dec 23rd 2008, 05:05 AM
yuker,
i see you have said that "taken out of context" means "i dont wanna change my mind"

this is false. there are situations in which people do in fact take things out of context. it happens when someone assumes they understand the meaning of a text just by reading it on the surface level, isolated from the rest of scripture

in a sense, you are choosing to hold on to the assumption that this one section of scripture "he cannot commit sin" , means that a Christian can never submit themselves to sin

i would have to say that maybe you yourself are the one who chooses not to ponder whether your interpretaion is flawed

1st john also says that whoever believes Jesus is the Christ is born of God, however this doesnt mean that everyone who says a quick prayer and "believes" is born again. there is more than just what is on the surface. we must interpret scripture with scripture

yes there is a sense in which a christian cannot commit sin, justa as there is a sense in which we should pluck out our eye if it causes us to sin, but we must interpret scripture with scripture. your interpretation cannot reject other scriptures and concepts taught in the bible.

i dont think your interpretation is way off but it seems perhaps slightly off

Walstib
Dec 23rd 2008, 07:18 AM
Yuke,

About the flesh doing the sinning. Who tells the flesh what to do? And if you can sin not only in deed but in thought, "who" is doing the thought sin?

The way I see this aspect is that I have been given the authority and ability to at all times keep the flesh from sinning. Each time I keep the flesh from sinning by enduring temptation I honor God and I think in a way I use less of my Savior's precious blood. Letting the flesh influence me to the point I miss the mark of perfection, I see is like spitting in Jesus' face and twisting the spear in His side. He may still love us through it, but I guess I see it like holding the whip and striking Jesus with it every time I follow the desires of the flesh instead of the desires of the Spirit. Me, I do the deciding, not God, not my spirit and not my flesh. I think. EDIT: My conscience tells me I still miss the mark, thank You Father for Jesus!

God may decide not to write down our sin against our account, and there can be much joy and peace in this. Then I don't think there is any honor in, or justification for deciding to follow the desires of the flesh.

Peace,
Joe

ProjectPeter
Dec 23rd 2008, 02:30 PM
Not sure how you do see that.

Christ's death has abolished the law for those who are born again. Christ's death made it impossible for those who are born again to sin.

How is that saying Jesus Christ died so that we could all (are able to)continue in sin?

I am confirming the exact opposite.

Jesus Christ died so that we cannot (are unable to) continue in sin.

As Paul said, we died to sin, how can we live in it any longer? Answer is, we cannot.
What law did it abolish?

ProjectPeter
Dec 23rd 2008, 02:38 PM
yes this is why Paul CONSTANTLY told the churches

DONT submit yourselves to sin

DONT let sin reign in your body

DONT use your members as instruments of unrighteousness

DONT you know that you are the temple of the Holy Spirit

if christians cannot submit to sin he would not say these,

however, notice how all the issues of sin are in the flesh. the spirit of the believer does not sin. that is why the spirit is at odds with the flesh. However the Christian can choose to submit even though he has power over sin. The spirit does not sin, but the Christian gives his members as instruments of unrighteousness.

It would benefit folks to really understand what Paul is saying in Romans 8. :)

Romans 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death.
3 For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh,
4 in order that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.
5 For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit.
6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace,
7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so;
8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.
10 And if Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness.
11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who indwells you.
12 ¶So then, brethren, we are under obligation, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh --
13 for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live.
14 For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.

This idea that we can still live by the flesh and yet our spirits are still all good... just doesn't work well Scripturally.

Yukerboy
Dec 23rd 2008, 04:43 PM
Ok brother Yuke. I had hoped to make a decent case and give you some things to think about. The passage in Corinthians was written to brothers in Christ.

It was written to the church in Corinth, just as Christ talked to the seven churches yet called some of the people in the churches fallen, dead, adulterers, and lukewarm.


Yet, John Mark deserted Paul. Peter and Barnabas both fell to hypocrisy. The man in 1 Cor was full of sin and disciplined, yet later restored.

Before I go my way...

How long have you been saved?

Scriptures?

As for me being saved, I thought I was clear on that. I have believed for 20+ years, however, that does not mean I am saved. Being saved means you have endured to the end. Do not say we shall do this or we shall do that. God willing I will endure to the end and be saved.


yuker,
i see you have said that "taken out of context" means "i dont wanna change my mind"

this is false. there are situations in which people do in fact take things out of context. it happens when someone assumes they understand the meaning of a text just by reading it on the surface level, isolated from the rest of scripture


All Scripture is profitable for reproof, for correction, for doctrine.

Every verse is true. If a verse is misinterpreted or used wrongly (i.e. Satan quoting Scripture) then Christ proved him wrong by (gasp!) quoting Scripture.


your interpretation cannot reject other scriptures and concepts taught in the bible.

Exactly, thus perfect harmony within the Scriptures.


About the flesh doing the sinning. Who tells the flesh what to do? And if you can sin not only in deed but in thought, "who" is doing the thought sin?

The sin within the flesh. The sin within the flesh. Is the brain flesh or spirit?

We war against the flesh daily. Our flesh desires to do one thing, our soul another thing.


The way I see this aspect is that I have been given the authority and ability to at all times keep the flesh from sinning. Each time I keep the flesh from sinning by enduring temptation I honor God and I think in a way I use less of my Savior's precious blood. Letting the flesh influence me to the point I miss the mark of perfection, I see is like spitting in Jesus' face and twisting the spear in His side. He may still love us through it, but I guess I see it like holding the whip and striking Jesus with it every time I follow the desires of the flesh instead of the desires of the Spirit.

I don't disagree here.


Me, I do the deciding, not God, not my spirit and not my flesh. I think. EDIT: My conscience tells me I still miss the mark, thank You Father for Jesus!

God may decide not to write down our sin against our account, and there can be much joy and peace in this. Then I don't think there is any honor in, or justification for deciding to follow the desires of the flesh.


All things work together for the good of those that love God. Even your sin. God uses evil to accomplish his purposes as well as good.


What law did it abolish?

The law of sin and death.


This idea that we can still live by the flesh and yet our spirits are still all good... just doesn't work well Scripturally.

God bless you, you got it! We don't live by the flesh. We strive against it, daily even.

you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.

And if Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness.

reformedct
Dec 23rd 2008, 05:36 PM
Yuke,

About the flesh doing the sinning. Who tells the flesh what to do? And if you can sin not only in deed but in thought, "who" is doing the thought sin?

The way I see this aspect is that I have been given the authority and ability to at all times keep the flesh from sinning. Each time I keep the flesh from sinning by enduring temptation I honor God and I think in a way I use less of my Savior's precious blood. Letting the flesh influence me to the point I miss the mark of perfection, I see is like spitting in Jesus' face and twisting the spear in His side. He may still love us through it, but I guess I see it like holding the whip and striking Jesus with it every time I follow the desires of the flesh instead of the desires of the Spirit. Me, I do the deciding, not God, not my spirit and not my flesh. I think. EDIT: My conscience tells me I still miss the mark, thank You Father for Jesus!

God may decide not to write down our sin against our account, and there can be much joy and peace in this. Then I don't think there is any honor in, or justification for deciding to follow the desires of the flesh.

Peace,
Joe

i agree. the Spirit gives us power over all sin. that does not mean we cant choose sin but like you said its like whipping Jesus's back when we do that because it was our sin that he died for. I cant wait to recieve my glorified body and be removed from the presence of sin so i dont have to worry about all this striving

reformedct
Dec 23rd 2008, 05:40 PM
It would benefit folks to really understand what Paul is saying in Romans 8. :)

Romans 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death.
3 For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh,
4 in order that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.
5 For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit.
6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace,
7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so;
8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.
10 And if Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness.
11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who indwells you.
12 ¶So then, brethren, we are under obligation, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh --
13 for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live.
14 For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.

This idea that we can still live by the flesh and yet our spirits are still all good... just doesn't work well Scripturally.


i did notmmean to imply that its ok to sin or that when we sin our spirits are still happy and dandy. im saying is that when we sin we are following after the flesh. the spirit is not sinning it is the flesh that is weak. our spirits are born of God so when we sin our spirits are grieved. They are very much affected. however when we do what our Spirit wants we obey. when we disobey we are going against our spirits and towards the flesh. The Spirit is deeply affected by sin but it is not the spirit who is sinning.

That being said this does not mean we are not responsible for our sin. We cant just say, my flesh made me do it! no, we are told to not listen to our flesh

Friend of I AM
Dec 23rd 2008, 05:48 PM
i have noticed there are a couple of people on here who believe that a true Christian never sins. I am not here to mock you or say IM RIGHT YOURE WRONG. However i would like to see how you view this passage in phillipians 3:

12 Not that I have already obtained this or am already perfect, but I press on to make it my own, because Christ Jesus has made me his own. 13 Brothers, I do not consider that I have made it my own. But one thing I do: forgetting what lies behind and straining forward to what lies ahead, 14 I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.

it seems to me that straining forward indicates work, but if Paul never sins why must he strain? If a true christian never sins, why must they "work out" their salvation with fear and trembling? if i will never sin, what is there to fear?

also what is he reffering to when he says he is not perfect?
ive heard i guy who said we cannot sin say: its not that we are tempted to sin and give in, it's that we cannot be tempted because we are born of God. However Paul clearly says he is not perfect in some fashion. Is it in obedience? is it in the state of his humanity, where sin in is present in his members? please help me out here

please dont see this as a mocking of your beliefs i am trying to respectfully understand your theology

If we make it to that finish line, we have to remember that it is God in the end who is the perfecter of our faith..and walk. Thus I would say that one should be conscious of nothing before the appointed time, all the while asking God to test them within their life with various situations to keep them walking on the right path and keep them in a state of humility before him.

Yukerboy
Dec 23rd 2008, 05:51 PM
That being said this does not mean we are not responsible for our sin. We cant just say, my flesh made me do it! no, we are told to not listen to our flesh

I should have made a distinction now that the word responsible has been used.

responsible = needing to respond to.
accountable = needing to account for.

The souls of those who are born again are responsible for what our flesh does.

The souls of those who are born again are not accountable for what our flesh does.

Vhayes
Dec 23rd 2008, 06:23 PM
I'm tip-toeing in here and will probably tip-toe back out -

Yuke, are you saying that sin is no longer the issue? That Christ paid for all sin? The issue now is what we do with the gift of salvation and our rewards in heaven will be based on our growth and submission to Him while we are in these bodies?

Tip-toeing out now...
V

Yukerboy
Dec 23rd 2008, 10:50 PM
I'm tip-toeing in here and will probably tip-toe back out -

Yuke, are you saying that sin is no longer the issue? That Christ paid for all sin? The issue now is what we do with the gift of salvation and our rewards in heaven will be based on our growth and submission to Him while we are in these bodies?

Tip-toeing out now...
V

V, you are always welcome into any discussion.

Sin is no longer the issue. Sin in our soul has been washed away. Sin in the flesh cannot be, which is why the flesh is corrupt.

The issue now is not to worry about sin if you are born again. Work out your salvation with fear and trembling, but worry more about doing right than doing wrong.

Our rewards in heaven are based on our growth and submission to Him. Our rewards in heaven are based on the works we do through faith. Works is a result of faith.

Sirus
Dec 24th 2008, 03:48 AM
What law did it abolish?
2Co 3:13 And not as Moses, which put a veil over his face, that the children of Israel could not steadfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:

Eph 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

Now, don't get me wrong. If we take the teachings of the Holy Spirit through Paul holistically, which is the only what to accept Scripture, then we understand that Christ becomes the focus and His gospel empowers us to fulfill the righteousness in the law and to hold up the law. In Romans 7, the law did not die. The old man did.

reformedct
Dec 24th 2008, 03:57 AM
please help me out on my interpretation:

"we are no longer under the law but under grace"

it has been my interpretation that this means our relationship and right standing with God depends on grace thru faith in Christ and His finished work for our redemption, not in keeping the law.

is this interpretation accurate?

i am not arguing for a sin lisence, i know we should not sin that grace may abound

Sirus
Dec 24th 2008, 04:36 AM
Correct!
Thru faith (trusting God's word) IN Christ ( in your position/crucifixion) you will fulfill the righteousness in the law and hold up (establish) the law by following Jesus' commandment to love, which ALL the law hinges on.

nizzy
Dec 24th 2008, 05:20 AM
Hi All:

I see you are having a lively discussion. Have you read the above-titled book? If not, here is the link:

http://www.crcbermuda.com/sermons-seminars/library-of-sermons/547-is-it-possible-to-live-without-sinning

http://www.crcbermuda.com/sermons-seminars/library-of-sermons/547-is-it-possible-to-live-without-sinning

Have a read and then we can discuss further. Thanks!

ProjectPeter
Dec 24th 2008, 01:36 PM
i did notmmean to imply that its ok to sin or that when we sin our spirits are still happy and dandy. im saying is that when we sin we are following after the flesh. the spirit is not sinning it is the flesh that is weak. our spirits are born of God so when we sin our spirits are grieved. They are very much affected. however when we do what our Spirit wants we obey. when we disobey we are going against our spirits and towards the flesh. The Spirit is deeply affected by sin but it is not the spirit who is sinning.

That being said this does not mean we are not responsible for our sin. We cant just say, my flesh made me do it! no, we are told to not listen to our flesh
But can you see where it does sound like this is what you are saying?

ProjectPeter
Dec 24th 2008, 01:38 PM
2Co 3:13 And not as Moses, which put a veil over his face, that the children of Israel could not steadfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:

Eph 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

Now, don't get me wrong. If we take the teachings of the Holy Spirit through Paul holistically, which is the only what to accept Scripture, then we understand that Christ becomes the focus and His gospel empowers us to fulfill the righteousness in the law and to hold up the law. In Romans 7, the law did not die. The old man did.But what was it that had that "old man" held in bondage?

Sirus
Dec 24th 2008, 04:31 PM
In Romans 7 the woman was in bondage to the old man. Held to him by law until the old man died.
The law did not die.
The man was in bondage to the flesh (law of sin in members - body of sin and death), which is now crucified and dead. Flesh died.

ProjectPeter
Dec 24th 2008, 06:07 PM
In Romans 7 the woman was in bondage to the old man. Held to him by law until the old man died.
The law did not die.
The man was in bondage to the flesh (law of sin in members - body of sin and death), which is now crucified and dead. Flesh died.
If the "flesh" died... why is there still a war raging? Not much a war if you're fighting a dead army is there?

Sirus
Dec 24th 2008, 07:14 PM
Do we war after the flesh? No.

....For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh

Walk in it, not after it.

Believing the flesh is dead is how we war in the Spirit. The war has been won. Sin was condemned in the flesh by the cross. A cross we hung on with and in Christ. We ARE dead, and our lives are hid with Christ in God and we are complete, being dead, buried, and raised together with Christ. The love of Christ constrains us because we thus judge, if Christ died for all, then were all dead. Live as those alive from the dead.

But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? 25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Not much of a war if we only believe in order to win.

Want 20 more?
To deny the flesh is dead is to deny basic fundamentals of the very simple gospel and is not living by faith but is giving place to the flesh.

Sirus
Dec 24th 2008, 10:50 PM
If the "flesh" died... why is there still a war raging? Not much a war if you're fighting a dead army is there?If your flesh did not die, how were you born again?

Yukerboy
Dec 24th 2008, 11:14 PM
If your flesh did not die, how were you born again?

John 3:6 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=50&chapter=3&verse=6&version=31&context=verse)
Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit.

Your flesh was born by flesh once. Your spirit was born by Spirit once. Your flesh was not born by flesh again (thus the flesh cannot be born again) but your spirit was born by Spirit again.

Yuke

Sirus
Dec 25th 2008, 12:35 AM
Correct! So explain what you think this passage means.

Col 2:10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
Col 2:11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
Col 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
Col 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
.......
....
Col 2:20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,
.......
....
Col 3:1 If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.
Col 3:2 Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.
Col 3:3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.
Col 3:4 When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.
Col 3:5 Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:
Col 3:6 For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:
Col 3:7 In the which ye also walked some time, when ye lived in them.
Col 3:8 But now ye also put off all these; anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy communication out of your mouth.
Col 3:9 Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds;
Col 3:10 And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:

Christianity is not gnostic dualism. The old man and new man do not live together in one nature. They cannot be separate natures in one essence because that is against what a nature is which is the essence of a thing. The old is dead and the new lives, else the old remains and the new has not been born.

Yukerboy
Dec 25th 2008, 12:56 AM
Correct! So explain what you think this passage means.

Col 2:10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
Col 2:11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
Col 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
Col 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
.......
....
Col 2:20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,
.......
....
Col 3:1 If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.
Col 3:2 Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.
Col 3:3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.
Col 3:4 When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.
Col 3:5 Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:
Col 3:6 For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:
Col 3:7 In the which ye also walked some time, when ye lived in them.
Col 3:8 But now ye also put off all these; anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy communication out of your mouth.
Col 3:9 Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds;
Col 3:10 And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:

Christianity is not gnostic dualism. The old man and new man do not live together in one nature. They cannot be separate natures in one essence because that is against what a nature is which is the essence of a thing. The old is dead and the new lives, else the old remains and the new has not been born.

This is what I mean when I state that it is no longer we who sin but the sin that lives within our flesh. We are no longer of the flesh, but of the spirit. Not a dualism, but that the old man (the flesh) has been done away with, though our spirit remains imprisoned within it.

Sirus
Dec 25th 2008, 01:14 AM
I know that is why you believe what you do and I am glad you don't believe dualism and understand the old man is in fact dead. I am trying to understand how those that claim to believe can say our flesh is not dead and another says we are not free from sin.....
because I believe this is one of the most misunderstood, overlooked, and denied fundamental truths of the gospel that, without it, isn't much of a gospel at all.

Romans 4 asks the question...what have we learned from Abraham concerning the flesh??!?!?!!!!!!!
God called what was not as though it was.....
Abraham's body was dead and God said he would have children innumerable. Couldn't see it, but he believed it, and it was counted as righteousness.

God says we are dead. Crucified, buried, and raised in Christ.
Can't see it, but are called to believe it.

I believe it was another thread but someone wanted me to deny this gospel truth. However, when temptation comes and I say I don't want to sin, I don't have to sin, I am dead, thank you Jesus for your COMPLETE, PERFECT, and FINISHED work, and have have communion with God like never before and completely forget about the silly little temptation that was once a 'stronghold sin' I couldn't resist, I am sorry, but I cannot deny the effectual gospel of Jesus Christ that has effectually made me free from the world the flesh and the devil, giving me joy unspeakable.

reformedct
Dec 25th 2008, 01:20 AM
I know that is why you believe what you do and I am glad you don't believe dualism and understand the old man is in fact dead. I am trying to understand how those that claim to believe can say our flesh is not dead and another says we are not free from sin.....
because I believe this is one of the most misunderstood, overlooked, and denied fundamental truths of the gospel that, without it, isn't much of a gospel at all.

God called what was not as though it was.....
Abraham's body was dead and God said he would have children innumerable. Couldn't see it, but he believed it, and it was counted as righteousness.

God says we are dead. Crucified, buried, and raised in Christ.
Can't see it, but are called to believe it.

I believe it was another thread but someone wanted me to deny this gospel truth. However, when temptation comes and I say I don't want to sin, I don't have to sin, I am dead, thank you Jesus for your COMPLETE, PERFECT, and FINISHED work, and have have communion with God like never before and completely forget about the silly little temptation that was once a 'stronghold sin' I couldn't resist, I am sorry, but I cannot deny the effectual gospel of Jesus Christ that has effectually made me free from the world the flesh and the devil, giving me joy unspeakable.


i agree with you that the old man died and that we are free from sin

i agree that there is no sin that a christian cannot overcome


i do not agree that it is impossible for a Christian to sin

for those who claim this, i would simply ask: how many times in your life have you thought you were saved and you werent because you sinned? be honest please and do not lie, oh wait you cannot lie, so im sure you will be honest:rolleyes:

Yukerboy
Dec 25th 2008, 01:25 AM
i agree with you that the old man died and that we are free from sin

i agree that there is no sin that a christian cannot overcome


i do not agree that it is impossible for a Christian to sin

for those who claim this, i would simply ask: how many times in your life have you thought you were saved and you werent because you sinned? be honest please and do not lie, oh wait you cannot lie, so im sure you will be honest:rolleyes:

I thought I was saved one time and have never lost that salvation through the sin my flesh has committed.

However, that salvation I believe have is mine only if I persevere to the end. If I do not, I had a dead faith and never belonged to Christ, not that I had lost salvation.

Sirus
Dec 25th 2008, 01:41 AM
i agree with you that the old man died and that we are free from sin

i agree that there is no sin that a christian cannot overcome

i do not agree that it is impossible for a Christian to sin

for those who claim this, i would simply ask: how many times in your life have you thought you were saved and you werent because you sinned? be honest please and do not lie, oh wait you cannot lie, so im sure you will be honest:rolleyes:I agree. Furthermore, in regards to your other thread, why does one feel they need to ask for forgiveness for a sin that is already forgiven? Maybe because they shouldn't have and didn't have to sin, and not because they need forgiveness? It's just their heart condemning them. We can only have confidence when we obey.

1Jo 3:20 For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things.
1Jo 3:21 Beloved, if our heart condemn us not, then have we confidence toward God.
1Jo 3:22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.

reformedct
Dec 25th 2008, 01:46 AM
I agree. Furthermore, in regards to your other thread, why does one feel they need to ask for forgiveness for a sin that is already forgiven? Maybe because they shouldn't have and didn't have to sin, and not because they need forgiveness? It's just their heart condemning them. We can only have confidence when we obey.

1Jo 3:20 For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things.
1Jo 3:21 Beloved, if our heart condemn us not, then have we confidence toward God.
1Jo 3:22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.

i definetly agree. i believe we ask forgiveness because it is the proper response to our folly and when we sin we are convicted and led to repentance. Just imagine if God did not promise he would forgive us when we ask? we would feel soooo guilty everytime we were not perfect

the way i see it is God saying: Do not sin, I DO NOT want you to sin. I hate when you sin because it harms you. But if you do sin, do not be afraid to ask forgiveness, because i will always forgive you.

Sirus
Dec 25th 2008, 02:09 AM
I see, but that is the opposite of what I said. We already are forgiven, we just think we are not. It is condemnation. The feeling doesn't require re-justification.
http://bibleforums.org/showpost.php?p=1917596&postcount=10
Condemned of ourselves for doing what we didn't have to do and were made free of.

reformedct
Dec 25th 2008, 02:15 AM
I see, but that is the opposite of what I said. We already are forgiven, we just think we are not. It is condemnation. The feeling doesn't require re-justification.
http://bibleforums.org/showpost.php?p=1917596&postcount=10

yes i do agree with what you said but i see i said it in a confusing way

we are fully forgiven at justification. we have right-standing and peace with God and full forgiveness of all sin at justification.

we confess our sins to get rid of feelings condemnation, and in that sense God always "forgives us" when we ask

but i agree we do not confess to be re-justified. those whom he justified he glorified. justification is a one time decree

Sirus
Dec 25th 2008, 02:29 AM
Amen!
But much more glorious is overcoming sin by faith and IF we do sin expressing faith in the word of God that says we are forgiven and getting encouragement from the Father and not feeling condemned. Talk about falling on your face!
Oh the richness of His grace and mercy!

Point is, we should not be doubting His precious sacrifice and asking for forgiveness!!!! Show me scripture that says otherwise, other than 1John 1:9 which is not applicable.

dutchman40
Jul 26th 2016, 07:53 PM
Greetings Sirus,

It really is actually very simple! Excellent understanding, thank you. When we walk in the Spirit of God we will not fulfill the lust of the flesh. If we are alive in the Spirit, we either choose to walk in His Spirit living in us, or we choose to fulfill the lust of the flesh. We don't have to choose the flesh because His Spirit gives us the power to deny the flesh.

Ga 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
Ga 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

Ga 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
Ga 5:25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

When we choose to walk in the Spirit we cannot sin, but when we are weak and walk in the flesh it is because we are engaged in a spiritual battle; Spirit against the flesh, and we cannot do the things that we should do according to the Spirit. This is why we are warned to put off the flesh, to crucify the flesh, to deny the flesh, to kill the flesh, to mortify the things of the earth that reside in our sinful flesh. For if we continue to live according to our sinful flesh, we will die. But there is no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Many Blessings,
RW Remember, it will be the HOLY SPIRIT who will walk in us and live in us, as we yeild to Him.