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reformedct
Dec 20th 2008, 07:26 PM
here is a good question

how do we reconcile scriptures that seem to contradict themselves?

like this: it is appointed once for every man to die
people say, 10 out of 10 people die

not quite! lol enoch never died right? he was caught up with the Lord

so its more like 9.999999/10 people die haha

but seriously, doesnt this mean that sometimes scripture says something but it doesn't mean exactly what it says at face value?

so when there are scriptures like 1 john that say: anyone who commits sin is not born of God

how can we know if that is exactly what it means at face value?

im not here to argue one theology over another just simply asking what is the standard of translating conflicting scriptures

like obviously james says we are justified by faith and works. but even though the bible clearly says that, we know that is not exactly what it means at face value. We know we are justified by faith not works. But im asking how come we let justification by faith alone ovverride justification by works and faith? the bible says both

so why not interpret paul through the lens of james instead of James through the lens of Paul? why don't we proclaim to people, you are justified by faith and works

i hope this isnt too confusing. Just trying to figure out how we go about letting one scripture interpret another

for example: those whom he justified he glorified

but there are also many warning signs about falling away. So how do we dtermine which scripture should interpret the other?

like how do we say ok, god glorifies whom he justifies, and interpret scripture by that view, or say, ok, God warns that people will fall away, so i will interpret scripture throught that lens?

ProjectPeter
Dec 20th 2008, 07:30 PM
Some would say that Enoch and Elijah both will return as the two witnesses in that last days. There they will fulfill Scripture and their flesh will indeed die. Case can be made for it so that should fix that "contradiction." ;)

reformedct
Dec 20th 2008, 07:36 PM
Some would say that Enoch and Elijah both will return as the two witnesses in that last days. There they will fulfill Scripture and their flesh will indeed die. Case can be made for it so that should fix that "contradiction." ;)

could you imagine how amazing that would be? to actually see the real moses and elijah of scripture? i hope its tru and i hope i get to be here to see it that would be craaaazy haha gotta get my camera ready but then again i might be raptured dang it haha(btw im not sure about pre trib or post trib my position is lets just wait and find out trib haha)

ProjectPeter
Dec 20th 2008, 07:43 PM
could you imagine how amazing that would be? to actually see the real moses and elijah of scripture? i hope its tru and i hope i get to be here to see it that would be craaaazy haha gotta get my camera ready but then again i might be raptured dang it haha(btw im not sure about pre trib or post trib my position is lets just wait and find out trib haha)
That's called "Pan-Trib" in that everything is going to pan out in the end just as God wants it to pan out. That's what I believe as well. ;)

SozzledBoot
Dec 20th 2008, 08:08 PM
There is more or less a 'scientifically acceptable' method of interpreting and understanding Scripture, one whose set of rules we can all agree to adhere to.

It is called Biblical hermeneutics.

There is another system: it is called Biblical revelation.

Hermeneutics works well until God decides to get in on a discussion Personally. Then somehow everything that we thought we knew up to that point vanishes away like the last dome of snow in the bright warm sun of an early spring.

divaD
Dec 20th 2008, 08:17 PM
Some would say that Enoch and Elijah both will return as the two witnesses in that last days. There they will fulfill Scripture and their flesh will indeed die. Case can be made for it so that should fix that "contradiction." ;)



I agree. This definately would fix this contradiction. But what about this one?

1 Thessalonians 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.


How do these folks die if they're still alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord? Wouldn't they then put on immortality? Immortality wouldn't be death. The question still is, when do or did they ever die a physical death, if it's appointed unto men once to die, and that this is speaking of physical death for every single man?

reformedct
Dec 20th 2008, 08:21 PM
I agree. This definately would fix this contradiction. But what about this one?

1 Thessalonians 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.


How do these folks die if they're still alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord? Wouldn't they then put on immortality? Immortality wouldn't be death. The question still is, when do or did they ever die a physical death, if it's appointed unto men once to die, and that this is speaking of physical death for every single man?


yes and also what about all who are alive when christ return? remember it says the dead in christ will be raised and then WE will be caught up or something. So aren't those people who are saved and alive at Christ return always alive??? i hope thats me i dont wanna die haha

ProjectPeter
Dec 20th 2008, 08:32 PM
I agree. This definately would fix this contradiction. But what about this one?

1 Thessalonians 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.


How do these folks die if they're still alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord? Wouldn't they then put on immortality? Immortality wouldn't be death. The question still is, when do or did they ever die a physical death, if it's appointed unto men once to die, and that this is speaking of physical death for every single man?
They are excluded. ;)

That's the thing... one verse doesn't a doctrine make. That's what makes a lot of Christian folk look goofy to those outside who happen to know some about the Scripture. With the rise of the WWW... it has gotten worse because there are tons of sites out there dedicated to making Christianity look foolish. Our lack of understanding Scripture and even trying to make excuses for God... tends to help them out.

ProjectPeter
Dec 20th 2008, 08:35 PM
There is an even better way. Forget the seminary teaching and be guided by the Spirit. ;) Better than even scientific reasoning. :)

threebigrocks
Dec 20th 2008, 08:45 PM
There is an even better way. Forget the seminary teaching and be guided by the Spirit. ;) Better than even scientific reasoning. :)


I'll second that! If we want truth - go to Who knows it best. :)

TrustingFollower
Dec 20th 2008, 09:27 PM
I agree. This definately would fix this contradiction. But what about this one?

1 Thessalonians 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.


How do these folks die if they're still alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord? Wouldn't they then put on immortality? Immortality wouldn't be death. The question still is, when do or did they ever die a physical death, if it's appointed unto men once to die, and that this is speaking of physical death for every single man?
1 Corinthians 15

50 śNow I say this, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.
51 Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed,

Not all will sleep, but all will be changed. If this body is perishable and we are to become imperishable then this perishable body as we know it will die and it will become a new creation that is imperishable. This flesh and blood can not enter the kingdom of God so everyone will die one way or another.

divaD
Dec 20th 2008, 09:53 PM
1 Corinthians 15

50 śNow I say this, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.
51 Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed,

Not all will sleep, but all will be changed. If this body is perishable and we are to become imperishable then this perishable body as we know it will die and it will become a new creation that is imperishable. This flesh and blood can not enter the kingdom of God so everyone will die one way or another.



Since you put it like that, I have no choice but to agree with your conclusions. What you're saying is basically this. Even tho alive when Christ returns, that body would have to perish in order for it to be changed, since that body, like it is, can't inherit eternal life. Even if this isn't what you're saying, it makes perfect sense to me. It looks like another contradiction is solved.

reformedct
Dec 20th 2008, 10:08 PM
They are excluded. ;)

That's the thing... one verse doesn't a doctrine make. That's what makes a lot of Christian folk look goofy to those outside who happen to know some about the Scripture. With the rise of the WWW.. (http://WWW..). it has gotten worse because there are tons of sites out there dedicated to making Christianity look foolish. Our lack of understanding Scripture and even trying to make excuses for God... tends to help them out.

i would have to disagree just slightly with this statement. Yes, we cannot just take a few verses and say BAM! this is THE CORRECT doctrine for everyone! lol

but all scripture is doctrine. for example jesus is the only way. thats dogma right there. thats doctrine. the problem is we all tend to have different views of what correct interpretation of that doctrine is.

even your statement of one verse doesn't make a doctrine is in and of itself your personal doctrine. your doctrine is that one verse doesn't make doctrine. but there are some one-liners that are doctrine

God created the heavens and the earth= doctrine

you must be born again= doctrine

Before abraham, "I AM"= doctrine (Jesus is God)

so you see it is indeed possible for one or two lines to constitute doctrine

because every jot and tittle of the Word of God is doctrine

the errors are in interpretation

TrustingFollower
Dec 20th 2008, 10:12 PM
Since you put it like that, I have no choice but to agree with your conclusions. What you're saying is basically this. Even tho alive when Christ returns, that body would have to perish in order for it to be changed, since that body, like it is, can't inherit eternal life. Even if this isn't what you're saying, it makes perfect sense to me. It looks like another contradiction is solved.
What you have said here is right on with the way I see things.

ProjectPeter
Dec 20th 2008, 10:17 PM
i would have to disagree just slightly with this statement. Yes, we cannot just take a few verses and say BAM! this is THE CORRECT doctrine for everyone! lol

but all scripture is doctrine. for example jesus is the only way. thats dogma right there. thats doctrine. the problem is we all tend to have different views of what correct interpretation of that doctrine is.

even your statement of one verse doesn't make a doctrine is in and of itself your personal doctrine. your doctrine is that one verse doesn't make doctrine. but there are some one-liners that are doctrine

God created the heavens and the earth= doctrine

you must be born again= doctrine

Before abraham, "I AM"= doctrine (Jesus is God)

so you see it is indeed possible for one or two lines to constitute doctrine

because every jot and tittle of the Word of God is doctrine

the errors are in interpretation
Actually... everything you mentioned is all throughout Scripture. So there is much more than one verse on those things. ;) Don't make the "concordance study" mistake. Folks do it all the time.

Example... folks look for the word endure and it's there a few times. They then conclude that it is only mentioned a few times in a few places therefore not very important. What they miss... stand firm, hold fast, steadfast, etc. All meaning the same thing. :)

reformedct
Dec 20th 2008, 10:28 PM
im not trying to pick and choose, i believe everything in the bible counts, as well as standing firm, enduring, all those things

however i also see verses that say things like jesus is the author and finisher of our faith, he will never leave us NOR forsake us

those whom he justified he glorified (eternity past)

so i accept that we must endure to the end, however i also accept that if i have been justified i will be glorified. i don't exclude anything i accept all things. all christians must endure. those who are justified will because God glorifies who he justifies, and we are already seated in heavenly places. I accept all scripture

oh well, lets face it, until jesus comes back we will always have differences i guess lol

ProjectPeter
Dec 20th 2008, 10:30 PM
im not trying to pick and choose, i believe everything in the bible counts, as well as standing firm, enduring, all those things

however i also see verses that say things like jesus is the author and finisher of our faith, he will never leave us NOR forsake us

those whom he justified he glorified (eternity past)

so i accept that we must endure to the end, however i also accept that if i have been justified i will be glorified. i don't exclude anything i accept all things. all christians must endure. those who are justified will because God glorifies who he justifies, and we are already seated in heavenly places. I accept all scripture

oh well, lets face it, until jesus comes back we will always have differences i guess lol
Wasn't trying to start a discussion on enduring... plenty of places I can do that at. Just making the point that words like "born-again" are pretty rare in Scripture. But the teaching isn't. Words such as "before Abraham, I was"... that's nothing invisible in Scripture.... etc. :)

reformedct
Dec 20th 2008, 10:32 PM
Wasn't trying to start a discussion on enduring... plenty of places I can do that at. Just making the point that words like "born-again" are pretty rare in Scripture. But the teaching isn't. Words such as "before Abraham, I was"... that's nothing invisible in Scripture.... etc. :)

ohhhh haha my bad i see where your coming from. i absolutley agree bro!

Sirus
Dec 21st 2008, 02:06 AM
Since you put it like that, I have no choice but to agree with your conclusions. What you're saying is basically this. Even tho alive when Christ returns, that body would have to perish in order for it to be changed, since that body, like it is, can't inherit eternal life. Even if this isn't what you're saying, it makes perfect sense to me. It looks like another contradiction is solved.

Col 3:3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.

Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?



Rom 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

Joh 12:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.

1Co 15:36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:



Rom 6:13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.

Rom 8:10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

Joh 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

TrustingFollower
Dec 21st 2008, 03:43 AM
Col 3:3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.

Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?



Rom 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

Joh 12:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.

1Co 15:36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:



Rom 6:13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.

Rom 8:10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

Joh 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.


These are some great scriptures, but all of these are referring to our faith. By our faith we are dead, but we are not literally dead. The question that you are responding to is in reference to the second coming of Christ and whether all will actually die physically. So can you add some scripture in reference to the physical death and resurrection of our spiritual bodies to help in the understanding of this.

kenrank
Dec 21st 2008, 03:46 AM
Some would say that Enoch and Elijah both will return as the two witnesses in that last days. There they will fulfill Scripture and their flesh will indeed die. Case can be made for it so that should fix that "contradiction." ;)

I was going to bring up the same point. Scripture says two witnesses will come. Jewish tradition holds to Eliyah, and the other is likely Enoch. Since those two witnesses die before Messiah's return...we are still cooking at 100%.

Peace.
Ken

Romber
Dec 21st 2008, 03:49 AM
could you imagine how amazing that would be? to actually see the real moses and elijah of scripture? i hope its tru and i hope i get to be here to see it that would be craaaazy haha gotta get my camera ready but then again i might be raptured dang it haha(btw im not sure about pre trib or post trib my position is lets just wait and find out trib haha)

Yes, and people will still refute the Word of God.

kenrank
Dec 21st 2008, 03:49 AM
here is a good question

how do we reconcile scriptures that seem to contradict themselves?

like this: it is appointed once for every man to die
people say, 10 out of 10 people die

not quite! lol enoch never died right? he was caught up with the Lord

so its more like 9.999999/10 people die haha

but seriously, doesnt this mean that sometimes scripture says something but it doesn't mean exactly what it says at face value?

so when there are scriptures like 1 john that say: anyone who commits sin is not born of God

how can we know if that is exactly what it means at face value?

im not here to argue one theology over another just simply asking what is the standard of translating conflicting scriptures

like obviously james says we are justified by faith and works. but even though the bible clearly says that, we know that is not exactly what it means at face value. We know we are justified by faith not works. But im asking how come we let justification by faith alone ovverride justification by works and faith? the bible says both

so why not interpret paul through the lens of james instead of James through the lens of Paul? why don't we proclaim to people, you are justified by faith and works

i hope this isnt too confusing. Just trying to figure out how we go about letting one scripture interpret another

for example: those whom he justified he glorified

but there are also many warning signs about falling away. So how do we dtermine which scripture should interpret the other?

like how do we say ok, god glorifies whom he justifies, and interpret scripture by that view, or say, ok, God warns that people will fall away, so i will interpret scripture throught that lens?

Just my take on the whole contradicting thing. When I see one, I study harder. I pray for answers, meditate on what I read.

I know that what might seem to be a contradiction in one spot, is clarified in another....you just have to find the other. I have yet to find a contradiction the scripture itself didn't illuminate.

Peace.
Ken

Sirus
Dec 21st 2008, 03:53 AM
These are some great scriptures, but all of these are referring to our faith. By our faith we are dead, but we are not literally dead. The question that you are responding to is in reference to the second coming of Christ and whether all will actually die physically. So can you add some scripture in reference to the physical death and resurrection of our spiritual bodies to help in the understanding of this.I did die literally and physically when Christ did, didn't you?

TrustingFollower
Dec 21st 2008, 03:56 AM
I did die literally and physically when Christ did, didn't you?
Do you have your resurrection body yet?

Sirus
Dec 21st 2008, 04:18 AM
Are you a new creature yet?

TrustingFollower
Dec 21st 2008, 04:24 AM
Are you a new creature yet?
You are not answering the question, do you have your resurrection body now?

Sirus
Dec 21st 2008, 04:27 AM
In answering my question you are answering yours ;)

TrustingFollower
Dec 21st 2008, 04:32 AM
I did die literally and physically when Christ did, didn't you?
If you physically died then how is it that you are able to type out answers on this message board. Let's get back to reality and see things for what they are. You and I die in faith and except the promise given to us. When you physically die you are not physically alive anymore. If you think you have died physically then what hope do you have in the gospel?

reformedct
Dec 21st 2008, 04:38 AM
If you physically died then how is it that you are able to type out answers on this message board. Let's get back to reality and see things for what they are. You and I die in faith and except the promise given to us. When you physically die you are not physically alive anymore. If you think you have died physically then what hope do you have in the gospel?

our fleshly nature died in Christ. thats why Paul says put off the old man, and says we have died to sin, thats why christians can live free from bondage of sin, because their fleshly nature was crucified. However, in this life our fleshly nature is actually still present, when we are glorified the very presence of sin will be removed from our glorified bodies. We experience this death in part as we overcome sin in our lives, we experience the fullness of perfection upon glorification i think

neverleaveunorfors
Dec 21st 2008, 04:51 AM
Just what does that vrs mean ? He is declared The Son of God and he was in the begining with God then first comes the natural then comes the spiritual through the first Adam all died and through the second Adam all shall live because he is a life giving spirit could Jesus been Adam ? yea I know just think about it ,contimplate, ponder it in the garden Adam never took the blame for the sin he did but could he have confessed and been for given? I know the tree of life which was denied him at that time was it do to him putting the blame on his wife?and not taking the blame for his actions and not confessing to God of his wrong doings?Remember grace and mercy where would yopu be with out it ? lots of love James

TrustingFollower
Dec 21st 2008, 04:53 AM
our fleshly nature died in Christ. thats why Paul says put off the old man, and says we have died to sin, thats why christians can live free from bondage of sin, because their fleshly nature was crucified. However, in this life our fleshly nature is actually still present, when we are glorified the very presence of sin will be removed from our glorified bodies. We experience this death in part as we overcome sin in our lives, we experience the fullness of perfection upon glorification i think
We only have anything through faith in Jesus. When we receive our glorified bodies they will not be the bodies we have now. These bodies are just the seed that is planted and will die. Our hope is in what will come the promise of the glorified body and eternal life. It is only in faith that we can claim it now.

Sirus
Dec 21st 2008, 06:22 AM
If you physically died then how is it that you are able to type out answers on this message board. Let's get back to reality and see things for what they are. You and I die in faith and except the promise given to us. When you physically die you are not physically alive anymore. If you think you have died physically then what hope do you have in the gospel?What reality is your basis for being a new creature? What substance and evidence do you have of faith? It says faith is substance and evidence, right? If your old man is dead and you are a new creature born of God why sin? If you believe you are IN Christ and therefore dead to sin then you do not sin. We are not asked to 'see things for what they are', we are asked to see things we do not see. Rom 4:1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? Abraham believed what he could not see simply because God said it was true. How does a beliver pick up any deadly thing and it not harm them? Believing I am dead because I was crucified with Christ 2000 years ago is no different than believing I am a new creature. In order to have substance and evidence of this promise I must first believe the promise God said that I cannot see. That, is that I am dead.

You are suggesting God wants me to believe something never happened and I can't do that. I can't do that because through the promise that I am already dead I overcame (substance and evidence) 'stronghold sins' I struggled with for 15 tears. No praying, fasting, reading the bible, 'going to church', or praise and worship made the slightest difference. Those things did not produce substance and evidence. It wasn't until I believed I am dead and raised to a new life and praised Jesus for his complete and finished work he did for me and to me that I overcame that sin and others I struggled with. It's the wisdom of God in a mystery that is foolishness to the world but the power of God to those that are saved. I sure wouldn't run around saying I don't believe the gospel. It is because I believe the bible when it says I died physically in and with Christ that I can have hope my body will be resurrected into a body like his.

Rom 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
Rom 8:10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

Col 2:10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
Col 2:11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
Col 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
Col 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;