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reformedct
Dec 21st 2008, 04:41 AM
do not eat of the fruit, for in the day you do you will surely die

did God only mean physically die? please use Scripture to explain

when Adam ate the fruit did he only begin to die physically or did he also spiritually die?

Rullion Green
Dec 21st 2008, 10:17 AM
Romans 5:11-13

Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned.

Death has entered the world through sin. The Physical death we earn by sin due to the fact we are spiritually dead.

Colossians 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses.

Walstib
Dec 21st 2008, 02:10 PM
Reckoned spiritually dead or fully and completely spiritually dead?

He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living. You are therefore greatly mistaken."(Mar 12:27 NKJV)

If our spirit is from God how can any spirit be dead?

The Spirit of God hath made me, and the breath of the Almighty hath given me life. (Job 33:4 KJV)

Then the dust will return to the earth as it was, And the spirit will return to God who gave it. (Ecc 12:7 NKJV)

The Pharaoh had a troubled spirit. Yet was not regenerated as I see it. Wholly dead things are not troubled.

Now it came to pass in the morning that his spirit was troubled, and he sent and called for all the magicians of Egypt and all its wise men. And Pharaoh told them his dreams, but there was no one who could interpret them for Pharaoh. (Gen 41:8 NKJV)

I think the spirit is not dead in an unregenerate man but that it lacks a connection with God, then reckoned as good as dead though it lives. I see it is the very breath of life from God that makes us live, even when we are as good as dead, or even phisically dead, yet living.

And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. (Gen 2:7 KJV)

Peace,
Joe

Brother Mark
Dec 21st 2008, 02:24 PM
It is an interesting question. Adam had not yet eaten of the Tree of Life and therefor, did not share in the uncreated life of God as we do. So what part of him died? I like Joe's answer a lot and I think he is on to something. The idea is that our spirits are separated from God and communication is lacking, much like a phone can be said to be "dead" because the line is cut.

divaD
Dec 21st 2008, 02:40 PM
do not eat of the fruit, for in the day you do you will surely die

did God only mean physically die? please use Scripture to explain

when Adam ate the fruit did he only begin to die physically or did he also spiritually die?



It can't be spiritualy dead. God has clearly been communicating with man's spirit since that has happened.


It can't be physically dead, as in the first death, because Christ defeated death, yet people still physically die.

It only leaves one thing left. And that's the 2nd death, the final death from which there is no returning from. The Bible clearly tells us that this is what Christ saved us from. He obviously didn't save us from the first physical death, since we all still physically die. He saved us from the 2nd death, the same death that God warned Adam about.

Walstib
Dec 21st 2008, 02:52 PM
It only leaves one thing left. And that's the 2nd death, the final death from which there is no returning from. The Bible clearly tells us that this is what Christ saved us from. He obviously didn't save us from the first physical death, since we all still physically die. He saved us from the 2nd death, the same death that God warned Adam about.

I was thinking this was a great answer and then I got stuck on something. Would Adam then not die in the second death, and the day he ate of it even? Know what I mean?

Peace,
Joe

divaD
Dec 21st 2008, 03:07 PM
I was thinking this was a great answer and then I got stuck on something. Would Adam then not die in the second death, and the day he ate of it even? Know what I mean?

Peace,
Joe



According to Scriptures, the 2nd death doesn't occur until after judgment, With that in mind, this would go against God's nature if there were no judgment first, and Adam or Eve died the 2nd death right there on the spot.

Also, we have to consider the fact that Adam nor Eve physically dropped dead
at the eating of the fruit. My conclusion would be this. God wasn't specifically speaking to Adam nor Eve, He was speaking to mankind as a whole. Mankind as a whole would die.

I feel that I make a good point about Christ defeating death. So which death did He defeat? It had to have been the 2nd one, since clearly people are still dying of the first one.

Vhayes
Dec 21st 2008, 03:16 PM
There is body, spirit and soul - Adam and Eve did not physically die the instant they ate the fruit. God breathed spirit (life) into Adam - all people stop breathing at death. To me, it is the soul that "died" in Adam and Eve; they were no longer able to have communion with God. No longer could they walk in the garden with Him, talk to Him, learn from Him. God sacrificed an animal, blood was shed and they were "covered" by the sacrifice. Pictures of what Jesus has done for us.

V

ross3421
Dec 21st 2008, 03:27 PM
No one is ever spiritually dead! Not even the wicked rather they are not yet spiritually born.......To say they are spiritually dead implies they have a spirit which died and spirits never die.

ross3421
Dec 21st 2008, 03:28 PM
There is body, spirit and soul - Adam and Eve did not physically die the instant they ate the fruit. God breathed spirit (life) into Adam - all people stop breathing at death. To me, it is the soul that "died" in Adam and Eve; they were no longer able to have communion with God. No longer could they walk in the garden with Him, talk to Him, learn from Him. God sacrificed an animal, blood was shed and they were "covered" by the sacrifice. Pictures of what Jesus has done for us.

V

The soul and spirit never die only the body.

ross3421
Dec 21st 2008, 03:35 PM
when Adam ate the fruit did he only begin to die physically ?

Yes. His body became corruptable and the decaying process began.

reformedct
Dec 21st 2008, 05:24 PM
is the breath of life

and mans spirit

the same thing? does anyone have scripture for this?

also what does it mean to be dead in our tresspasses?

i think breath of life is just that. the ability to breath and be alive. I think we are spirtually dead to God at birth, reconnected by the Spirit when born again. New creature, new creation. Not renewed creation but brand new!

Butch5
Dec 22nd 2008, 04:48 AM
do not eat of the fruit, for in the day you do you will surely die

did God only mean physically die? please use Scripture to explain

when Adam ate the fruit did he only begin to die physically or did he also spiritually die?

I used to think it was spiritual death, however, I found some serious flaws with this position. One being, if this is spiritual death, it is a major theme throughout the Bible. It seems strange that it is "never" directly mentioned. Also, there is "no" mention in the Scriptures of spiritual death. Another is that the rich man who went to hell in Jesus parable was "not" spiritually dead. Another is, if this is spiritual death, that came through Adam's sin, where did physical death come from? Also as has been mentioned the phrase, in dying you will die, indicates that Adam began to die that day. However, Thaddeus posed a very plausible post to me regarding this, which I had never contemplated. Adam lived 930 years, consider what Peter said,

2 Peter 3:8 ( KJV ) 8But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

The same thing is said in,

Psalms 90:4 ( KJV ) 4 For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night.

IF we apply this to what God said, Adam did die the same day.

BroRog
Dec 22nd 2008, 05:26 AM
Adam and Eve were not spiritually dead. In fact, Eve was a believer. God promised her that one day, a son of her's would arise to crush the head of the serpent, which she believed and trusted God.

The "death" Adam and Eve experienced was a "death" of their self-concept. That is, on the day they ate of the fruit, they realized that disobedience was something possible for them. Before that day, they had not known themselves as sinners.

It's like this. One day a boy goes to the store and takes a piece of candy. The day before the boy only knew his innocence. But the day he ate the stolen candy is the day he became a thief. After that, he could never claim to be innocent. The innocent boy he was, died that day.

reformedct
Dec 22nd 2008, 05:29 AM
I used to think it was spiritual death, however, I found some serious flaws with this position. One being, if this is spiritual death, it is a major theme throughout the Bible. It seems strange that it is "never" directly mentioned. Also, there is "no" mention in the Scriptures of spiritual death. Another is that the rich man who went to hell in Jesus parable was "not" spiritually dead. Another is, if this is spiritual death, that came through Adam's sin, where did physical death come from? Also as has been mentioned the phrase, in dying you will die, indicates that Adam began to die that day. However, Thaddeus posed a very plausible post to me regarding this, which I had never contemplated. Adam lived 930 years, consider what Peter said,

2 Peter 3:8 ( KJV ) 8But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

The same thing is said in,

Psalms 90:4 ( KJV ) 4 For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night.

IF we apply this to what God said, Adam did die the same day.


this is what makes it so complicated. i believe what happens on the outside is an expression of the inside. i feel that somehow adam died inside. I want to believe it was spirtual death but like you say there is not alot of scripture spicifically mentioning spiritual death.

oh well, back to studying

Brother Mark
Dec 22nd 2008, 01:50 PM
this is what makes it so complicated. i believe what happens on the outside is an expression of the inside. i feel that somehow adam died inside. I want to believe it was spirtual death but like you say there is not alot of scripture spicifically mentioning spiritual death.

oh well, back to studying

There is when we look at what death is. Death is the absence of life. In other words, death cannot exist without life. Much as darkness is the absence of light, so death is the absence of life. Who is life? Adam, on the very day he sinned, was separated from the Tree of Life, i.e. he died.

The moment he was separated from God, he was separated from Life, in that sense, he died. There's scripture that speaks of that in many ways. Your study is an interesting one all the way around.

Walstib
Dec 22nd 2008, 03:02 PM
is the breath of life

and mans spirit

the same thing? does anyone have scripture for this?

I began to see it this way after looking into the words used for spirit. Puff of wind, breath, wind. In both Hebrew and Greek as I understand. May be of interest for your study.

Peace,
Joe

divaD
Dec 22nd 2008, 03:02 PM
Can anyone define what spiritual death is according to Scriptures? If this concept is taught in Scriptures, then one should easily be able to define it according to Scriptures. It's sort of like the concept of the immortal soul.
Many teach and believe this, yet the Bible tells us the soul that sinneth, it shall die. If that's not a contradiction then I don't know what is. This couldn't be in relation to physical death, the first death, it has to be referring to the 2nd death, the final death from which there is no coming back from.

In order to understand which death Adam was condemned to die, we have to look to see which death Christ defeated in order that man could live forever and not die. There are 3 possibilities that I'm aware of. Spiritual death, physical death the first death, the 2nd death the final death.

Did Christ defeat spiritual death? If so, please explain how.

Did Christ defeat the first death, the physical death of the body. If so, please explain how, since He actually died that death, and we still die that death.


Did Christ defeat the 2nd death, the final death? If not, then explain why not, since Christ apparently wasn't dead forever.

Butch5
Dec 22nd 2008, 08:57 PM
this is what makes it so complicated. i believe what happens on the outside is an expression of the inside. i feel that somehow adam died inside. I want to believe it was spirtual death but like you say there is not alot of scripture spicifically mentioning spiritual death.

oh well, back to studying

The most important thing to remember is, don't interject your thoughts or opinions into the Scriptures, this is where people get into so, so, so, much trouble in understanding. I understand this to be physical death, because, God told Adam he would die, and Paul clearly tells us that physical death entered the world through Adam. To understand this as a spiritual death one "has" to interject something into the Scripture, because there is "no" mention of anything spiritual in this passage. I think to claim it is spiritual death, based on the fact the Adam did not die physically that very day is really stretching the Scripture and interjecting the spiritual component. Especially in light of the statements from Psalm 90 and Peter, that a day with the Lord is as a thousand years.

There is "no" scripture that speaks of spiritual death.

reformedct
Dec 22nd 2008, 09:11 PM
The most important thing to remember is, don't interject your thoughts or opinions into the Scriptures, this is where people get into so, so, so, much trouble in understanding. I understand this to be physical death, because, God told Adam he would die, and Paul clearly tells us that physical death entered the world through Adam. To understand this as a spiritual death one "has" to interject something into the Scripture, because there is "no" mention of anything spiritual in this passage. I think to claim it is spiritual death, based on the fact the Adam did not die physically that very day is really stretching the Scripture and interjecting the spiritual component. Especially in light of the statements from Psalm 90 and Peter, that a day with the Lord is as a thousand years.

There is "no" scripture that speaks of spiritual death.

i see where you are coming from. im sorry if you already mentioned this, but what is your take on ephesians 2, being "dead" in our tresspasses and sins. i would like to hear what type of death Paul is refferring to. Does it just mean the Second Death? or just physical death? or perhaps some sort of spiritual/soul death?

i would also like to say, i believe just because the scripture doesnt explicitly say spiritual death that the concept is not suggested or farfetched, however you are right that the scripture in genesis simply says you will die.

it just seems to me that there has got to be more involved than physical death when he sinned. but i admit i need to study more scripture for myself

also if you could give me your take on the state of man's spirit before it is born again?

reformedct
Dec 22nd 2008, 09:17 PM
There is when we look at what death is. Death is the absence of life. In other words, death cannot exist without life. Much as darkness is the absence of light, so death is the absence of life. Who is life? Adam, on the very day he sinned, was separated from the Tree of Life, i.e. he died.

The moment he was separated from God, he was separated from Life, in that sense, he died. There's scripture that speaks of that in many ways. Your study is an interesting one all the way around.

interesting.

soo... what components of man are affected when he is separated from life?

as you said where there is life there can be no death

so which parts of adam had life removed?

im still confused but i feel this is an important issue

what are we as humans made of?

obviously we have physical bodies, but what else?

a body and a soul and a spirit?

or is the spirit and soul the same?

since God is triune, and we are made in his image

it would make sense that we are triune in the sense of the physical us, a soul in us, and a spirit in us

so what was the condition of Adam's spirit the day he ate? i just wish scripture would be more specific about this, it seems a little vague (all respect to the Word)

Partaker of Christ
Dec 23rd 2008, 12:50 AM
I think that 'perhaps' a helpful illustration I heard was something like this:

a Light bulb:
God takes earth and forms it (the negative)
Then He gives a life giving breath (the positive)

When you have these two elements (+/-) together and apply energy, you have a third element being light. Light gives life.

When Adam died, he lost that source of energy that came from God. He became an independent being. God is Spirit. Although Adam still had his spirit, it was dead (redundant) in that he could no longer commune with God by the spirit. Adam now had to live by his knowledge of good and evil. Do what is good, and avoid what is evil and you will live (self righteousness).

After the fall, God's communication with man was external. He spoke in an audible voice. He spoke through certain prophets, He appeared visually as a man, or a burning bush, or a pillar of fire and a cloud. He led His people by the hand etc.

Rev 21:5a And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new.


(Saviour) The first thing God restores (quickens), is our spirit (born anew). (Lord) Then the soul and we learn how to live and walk in the spirit. This is an abandonment of self (independence). We must decrease, and He must increase. When I am weak, then I am strong.

2Co 5:14 For the love of Christ compels us, having concluded this: that if One died for all, then all died;
2Co 5:15 and He died for all, so that they who live should live no longer for themselves, but for the One who died for them and rose again.
2Co 5:16 Therefore, from now on, we regard no one according to the flesh. Even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him thus no longer.
2Co 5:17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old things passed away; behold, all things have become new.

Butch5
Dec 23rd 2008, 02:09 AM
reformedct---i see where you are coming from. im sorry if you already mentioned this, but what is your take on ephesians 2, being "dead" in our tresspasses and sins. i would like to hear what type of death Paul is refferring to. Does it just mean the Second Death? or just physical death? or perhaps some sort of spiritual/soul death?

As I said, I believe Paul is using death as a metaphor, I don't think he is referring to death in the real sense. I think what he means is, in our old state we were unable to do anything about our condition. Just as a dead man cannot do anything about his condition. In the example I gave in the other post, Paul said, I was alive once, then the commandment came. His, being alive once, is a metaphor for his not being condemned by the law as yet. It is not a reference to a life, whether physical or spiritual. I think he means the same thing when he says death.


reformedct---i would also like to say, i believe just because the scripture doesnt explicitly say spiritual death that the concept is not suggested or farfetched, however you are right that the scripture in genesis simply says you will die.

it just seems to me that there has got to be more involved than physical death when he sinned. but i admit i need to study more scripture for myself


Well, I have studied this and have been in contact with those who are well versed in the Scriptures, and the original languages, and they have not given me any indication that there is a reference to anything spiritual in the verse. If you come across anything let me know, my studies have not been exhaustive.


reformedct---also if you could give me your take on the state of man's spirit before it is born again?

In what regard?

BCF
Dec 23rd 2008, 04:19 AM
Hi BroRog, nice to chat with you.


Adam and Eve were not spiritually dead. In fact, Eve was a believer. God promised her that one day, a son of her's would arise to crush the head of the serpent, which she believed and trusted God.

I'm sorry my friend, but scripture never says that God promised Eve that a son of hers would arise and crush the head of anything. What scripture does say though in Genesis 3:15 is this,

"And I (meaning God) will put enmity between thee (satan) and the woman (female person), and between thy (satan's) seed and her (female person) seed; it (meaning He=Jesus) shall bruise thy head, and thou (satan) shalt bruise his (Jesus) heel."

As we can plainly see, God did make a promise....but not to Eve. It was to satan. God promised satan that He would sent Jesus through the seed of a woman. God never said who that woman was going to be. We come to find out later that it was Mary....the mother of Our Lord. But at the time God made the promise to satan of what He was going to do....all God told him was that it was going to be through the seed of some woman.

God Bless,

Dave

Brother Mark
Dec 23rd 2008, 04:25 AM
interesting.

soo... what components of man are affected when he is separated from life?

as you said where there is life there can be no death

Well, what I was getting at was that death is the absence of life. In other words, death is used in many ways in scripture. For instance, believers are dead to sin. Does that mean believers no longer sin? Death means separation from, or to be absent. So death, by definition is the absence of life. It cannot be defined outside of life.

So with Adam, he was separated from the Tree of Life. Now who is THE Tree of Life?

Sirus
Dec 23rd 2008, 05:31 AM
tree of life a who? It's obvious where you are going but scripture never goes there, so I won't either. It's an it.

BCF
Dec 23rd 2008, 04:06 PM
Well, what I was getting at was that death is the absence of life. In other words, death is used in many ways in scripture. For instance, believers are dead to sin. Does that mean believers no longer sin? Death means separation from, or to be absent. So death, by definition is the absence of life. It cannot be defined outside of life.

So with Adam, he was separated from the Tree of Life. Now who is THE Tree of Life?

Good Morning Brother Mark,

The Tree of Life is Jesus Christ Our Lord.

John 1:1-5,

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not anything made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of man. And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not."

Also in Colossians 1:3-18, we can read this proof from scripture that the Tree of Life is Our Lord Jesus Christ.

"We give thanks to God and the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, for praying always for you, Since we heard of your faith in Christ Jesus, and of the love which ye have to all the saints, For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel; Which is come unto you, as it is in all the world; and bringeth forth fruit, as it doth also in you, since the day ye heard of it, and knew the grace of God in truth: As ye also learned of Epaphras our dear followservent, who is for you a faithful minister of Christ; Who also declared unto us your love in the Spirit.

For this cause we also, since the day we heard it, do not cease to pray for you, and to desire that you might be filled with the knowledge of his will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding; That ye might walk worthy of the Lord unto all pleasing, being fruitful in every good work, and increasing in the knowledge of God; Strengthened with all might, according to his glorious power, unto all patience and longsuffering with joyfulness; Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light: Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:

Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence."

God Bless,

Dave

BCF
Dec 23rd 2008, 04:15 PM
tree of life a who? It's obvious where you are going but scripture never goes there, so I won't either. It's an it.


Hello Sirus,

The scripture clearly has a name for IT, and that name would be Jesus Christ Our Lord. We find proof of this in Genesis 3:15 where it says:

"And I (meaning God) will put enmity between thee (satan) and the woman (female person), and between thy (satan's) seed and her (female person) seed; it (meaning He=Jesus) shall bruise thy head, and thou (satan) shalt bruise his (Jesus) heel."

This was a promise that God made to satan in the Garden b/c of what satan did. There is no man who will ever walk this earth, who will be born by any woman, who will be able to bruise the head of satan....other then Jesus Christ Our Lord Himself.

There is one that will come and claim that he can...but he can't....and he is the antichrist. That clown will be defeated.

dljc
Dec 23rd 2008, 04:31 PM
What did Jesus mean when He said the following to His disciple?

Matthew 8:
21 And another of his disciples said unto him, Lord, suffer me first to go and bury my father.

22 But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead.

23 And when he was entered into a ship, his disciples followed him.

It's obvious this is a funeral for this disciple's dad. So the physical body is most definitely dead. So is Jesus talking about the spiritual part of this man and these people that were burying this man?

It's also obvious that it was to let the disciple know it's was more important to follow Jesus than to worry about this. But the bold underlined verse has a meaning. What is it?

reformedct
Dec 23rd 2008, 08:27 PM
What did Jesus mean when He said the following to His disciple?

Matthew 8:
21 And another of his disciples said unto him, Lord, suffer me first to go and bury my father.

22 But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead.

23 And when he was entered into a ship, his disciples followed him.

It's obvious this is a funeral for this disciple's dad. So the physical body is most definitely dead. So is Jesus talking about the spiritual part of this man and these people that were burying this man?

It's also obvious that it was to let the disciple know it's was more important to follow Jesus than to worry about this. But the bold underlined verse has a meaning. What is it?

i have heard that the term "bury my father" did not actually mean the father was dead at that time, but that he was sickly and about to die.

however it is very interesting that he said: let the dead bury their dead?

what kind of dead was he talking about? it had to be more than physical death, because a physically dead person can't bury a physically dead person. hmmmm... good verse!

also i said before:
ye must be born again
that which is born of flesh is flesh
that which is born of spirit is spirit

so can a person have spirtual life without being born again?

Brother Mark
Dec 23rd 2008, 08:41 PM
i have heard that the term "bury my father" did not actually mean the father was dead at that time, but that he was sickly and about to die.

however it is very interesting that he said: let the dead bury their dead?

what kind of dead was he talking about? it had to be more than physical death, because a physically dead person can't bury a physically dead person. hmmmm... good verse!

also i said before:
ye must be born again
that which is born of flesh is flesh
that which is born of spirit is spirit

so can a person have spirtual life without being born again?

Spiritual life is defined as life in God. One can have a spirit that is active but not alive. IOW, just like the dead can bury the dead, being dead does not mean inactive or without ability.

Adam was separated from God by his sin and thus, he was dead. In the very day he ate the fruit, God withdrew his presence from Adam and Adam died. He no longer had God in his life.

One can have a spirit, but not be born again. But when his spirit is born again, God is united with him and he enters a relationship to God. Thus, he is no longer separated (dead) from God.

BCF
Dec 23rd 2008, 08:50 PM
Spiritual life is defined as life in God. One can have a spirit that is active but not alive. IOW, just like the dead can bury the dead, being dead does not mean inactive or without ability.

Adam was separated from God by his sin and thus, he was dead. In the very day he ate the fruit, God withdrew his presence from Adam and Adam died. He no longer had God in his life.

One can have a spirit, but not be born again. But when his spirit is born again, God is united with him and he enters a relationship to God. Thus, he is no longer separated (dead) from God.

Excellent answer, and what you are saying is backed up all thoughout scripture....starting in Genesis with Adam and Eve in the Garden.

reformedct
Dec 23rd 2008, 10:01 PM
so in this way it is safe to say without Christ we are spirtually dead

however this doesnt mean we don't have a spirit, its just that our spirits are disconnected from THE Spirit of Life and in that sense dead?

Brother Mark
Dec 23rd 2008, 10:07 PM
so in this way it is safe to say without Christ we are spirtually dead

however this doesnt mean we don't have a spirit, its just that our spirits are disconnected from THE Spirit of Life and in that sense dead?

That is exactly right.

reformedct
Dec 23rd 2008, 10:22 PM
this leads to another burning question:

can a person with a spirit seperated from God repent of sin, and place faith in Jesus....apart from the work of the Holy Spirit?

"it is God at work in you to will and to do according to His good pleasure"

so at what point does the Spirit of God get involved?

before repentance and faith, or after?

Brother Mark
Dec 23rd 2008, 10:26 PM
this leads to another burning question:

can a person with a spirit seperated from God repent of sin, and place faith in Jesus....apart from the work of the Holy Spirit?

"it is God at work in you to will and to do according to His good pleasure"

so at what point does the Spirit of God get involved?

before repentance and faith, or after?

Always before. Before light entered into the world, the Spirit of God hovered over it. Scripture teaches that a man's spirit will not call out to God before God calls out to man.

dljc
Dec 23rd 2008, 11:44 PM
Matthew 8:
21 And another of his disciples said unto him, Lord, suffer me first to go and bury my father.

It's obvious this is a funeral for this disciple's dad.


i have heard that the term "bury my father" did not actually mean the father was dead at that time, but that he was sickly and about to die.reformedct,

I wanted to touch on this part only, because I think Brother Mark has answered your question very well otherwise.

If you read that verse in the grammatical context it is in, it is in "present tense", that is why I commented "It's obvious...". We don't bury a person who is sickly and about to die. It isn't until after they are dead that this is even considered correct? So it just makes sense that the disciple's dad was already dead. If you look at that sentence in present tense.

I don't want to sidetrack the thread I just wanted to clear this up on why I made that comment. :)

Just_Another_Guy
Dec 23rd 2008, 11:47 PM
this leads to another burning question:

can a person with a spirit seperated from God repent of sin, and place faith in Jesus....apart from the work of the Holy Spirit?

"it is God at work in you to will and to do according to His good pleasure"

so at what point does the Spirit of God get involved?

before repentance and faith, or after?

God's Mercy...that's what's involved. Think of Paul on the Road to Damascus.

Edit: Not the best answer..I think when it all comes down to it mercy is what's at play regarding salvation. God so loved the world..even though we were sinners..Christ died for us..

Yukerboy
Dec 24th 2008, 12:38 AM
this leads to another burning question:

can a person with a spirit seperated from God repent of sin, and place faith in Jesus....apart from the work of the Holy Spirit?

"it is God at work in you to will and to do according to His good pleasure"

so at what point does the Spirit of God get involved?

before repentance and faith, or after?

It is God that grants some the ability to repent.

God's kindness leads you toward repentance
God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth

Therefore, the Spirit of God would be involved before repentance and faith in my opinion.

We know that God has chosen us in Him before the creation of the world.

Walstib
Dec 24th 2008, 02:11 AM
According to Scriptures, the 2nd death doesn't occur until after judgment, With that in mind, this would go against God's nature if there were no judgment first, and Adam or Eve died the 2nd death right there on the spot. Agree with you here. That is the precise reason I got stuck. The context of the verse to me is that something happened that day involving a kind of death. “for in the day that you eat of it”
Also, we have to consider the fact that Adam nor Eve physically dropped dead at the eating of the fruit. My conclusion would be this. God wasn't specifically speaking to Adam nor Eve, He was speaking to mankind as a whole. Mankind as a whole would die. Again there was a specific action done by Adam, that caused a kind of death for him in the day that he ate. I do think mankind as a whole was affected.
I feel that I make a good point about Christ defeating death. So which death did He defeat? It had to have been the 2nd one, since clearly people are still dying of the first one. I agree with you here. I guess I would say we do not need to be rescued from the second death unless we are already reckoned spiritually dead. Adam did not need rescuing before he ate, then being as good as dead he needed to be cleaned to not be worthy of the second death. What I am thinking anyway, if I am making any sense.?.

Peace,
Joe

Brother Mark
Dec 24th 2008, 02:18 AM
I guess I would say we do not need to be rescued from the second death unless we are already reckoned spiritually dead. Adam did not need rescuing before he ate, then being as good as dead he needed to be cleaned to not be worthy of the second death. What I am thinking anyway, if I am making any sense.?.

Peace,
Joe

I like this. Keep in mind that while Adam was not in need of rescuing before the fall, neither did he share in God's uncreated, eternal life. So while his spirit was connected to God in that he could fellowship with God, he was not one with God.

What's different for mankind after Jesus is that we share in God's uncreated life. His life is now in us and as Jesus prayed, we are one with God (John 16-17).

I think Adam could have experienced that same thing through the eating of the Tree of Life. But instead, he chose life for himself, and so lost his life. There is much to glean from these passages.

Your comment just got me to thinking...

divaD
Dec 24th 2008, 02:53 AM
Agree with you here. That is the precise reason I got stuck. The context of the verse to me is that something happened that day involving a kind of death. “for in the day that you eat of it” Again there was a specific action done by Adam, that caused a kind of death for him in the day that he ate. I do think mankind as a whole was affected. I agree with you here. I guess I would say we do not need to be rescued from the second death unless we are already reckoned spiritually dead. Adam did not need rescuing before he ate, then being as good as dead he needed to be cleaned to not be worthy of the second death. What I am thinking anyway, if I am making any sense.?.

Peace,
Joe




Hi Walstib. Here's something else to ponder.

When God formed the man, where did He put him? In the Garden of God. The tree of life was in the midst of this garden. When man sinned by disobeying God, What did God then do? He evicted man out of His Garden, thus blocking access to the tree of life. The tree of life is the missing link. It was because man could no longer partake of the tree of life that would cause man to die and be forever dead. No tree of life, no immortality.

Genesis 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.
24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.


These verses should make it clear that immortality is brought about by partaking of the tree of life.

Ok, we already know about Christ's death and resurrection, so let's skip ahead to the book of Revelation.


Revelation 2:7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God

Revelation 22:2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

Revelation 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.


Perhaps you don't see the connection here, and perhaps I may even be way off, but it appears that the reason man dies is because he lost access to the tree of life. What I ponder is this. Does one need to continually partake of the tree of life in order to live forever, or does one only have to partake of it one time in order to live forever? Revelation 22:2
seems to suggest the former.

Something else that comes to mind. Because of what Christ did, man is once again welcome to enter into God's paradise, where still in the midst of it is the tree of life. IOw, death only exists outside of God's paradise. And since man was banned from God's paradise, man would die and never again live, unless he was able to come back into God's paradise where eternal life abides. And thanks to Christ, man can once again enter into God's paradise.

Something to ponder...

reformedct
Dec 24th 2008, 03:17 AM
Agree with you here. That is the precise reason I got stuck. The context of the verse to me is that something happened that day involving a kind of death. “for in the day that you eat of it” Again there was a specific action done by Adam, that caused a kind of death for him in the day that he ate. I do think mankind as a whole was affected. I agree with you here. I guess I would say we do not need to be rescued from the second death unless we are already reckoned spiritually dead. Adam did not need rescuing before he ate, then being as good as dead he needed to be cleaned to not be worthy of the second death. What I am thinking anyway, if I am making any sense.?.

Peace,
Joe

i think the death that Jesus defeated was the death of seperation from God. people who are living seperated from God are in a state of deadness. and when they die they will continue in that death of seperation

this is why it is called the gospel of reconciliation. we are reconciled back to God, the reverse of what Adam did

Sirus
Dec 24th 2008, 03:27 AM
Hello Sirus,

The scripture clearly has a name for IT, and that name would be Jesus Christ Our Lord. We find proof of this in Genesis 3:15 where it says:

"And I (meaning God) will put enmity between thee (satan) and the woman (female person), and between thy (satan's) seed and her (female person) seed; it (meaning He=Jesus) shall bruise thy head, and thou (satan) shalt bruise his (Jesus) heel."

This was a promise that God made to satan in the Garden b/c of what satan did. There is no man who will ever walk this earth, who will be born by any woman, who will be able to bruise the head of satan....other then Jesus Christ Our Lord Himself.

There is one that will come and claim that he can...but he can't....and he is the antichrist. That clown will be defeated.No tree there

-tree of life
-Jesus Christ our Lord

nope, not even close

This is very simple. The tree of life returns in the future and is a part of his reward he brings with him (Rev 22). :B

Sirus
Dec 24th 2008, 03:29 AM
Always before. Before light entered into the world, the Spirit of God hovered over it. Scripture teaches that a man's spirit will not call out to God before God calls out to man.It teaches no such thing.

Job 32:8 But there is a spirit in man: and the inspiration of the Almighty giveth them understanding.
Not exactly disfunctional way back there in Jobs day.

Does this verse say God made the first move? No. Seek and ye shall find....

Sirus
Dec 24th 2008, 03:37 AM
It is God that grants some the ability to repent.

God's kindness leads you toward repentance
God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth

Therefore, the Spirit of God would be involved before repentance and faith in my opinion.

We know that God has chosen us in Him before the creation of the world.God wills all repent but only gives to some.....makes perfect sense! Oh that's right....all does not mean all....or it is just all chosen. Sorry, but that is not what it says.

reformedct
Dec 24th 2008, 03:48 AM
God wills all repent but only gives to some.....makes perfect sense! Oh that's right....all does not mean all....or it is just all chosen. Sorry, but that is not what it says.

sirius, i would like to ask you your perspective? with scripture to back up as well please

we must not dismiss concepts just because they seem contradictory. for example in the OT many verses say Pharoah hardened his heart, then many verses say God hardened his heart. Arminians like to focus on the former, Calvinists focus on the latter. But the correct thing is to accept all verses, tell God we do not understand, and pray that He reveal His truth

So if the bible says God grants repentance, we must also accept this as true, no? and if people must pray that God would grant someone repentance, it seems like they don't have repentance yet

i will be to the first to say i dont understand everything, but i do understand that our interpretations must allow all scriptures to breathe. We can't emphasize one and cast down another

Brother Mark
Dec 24th 2008, 03:56 AM
we must not dismiss concepts just because they seem contradictory. for example in the OT many verses say Pharoah hardened his heart, then many verses say God hardened his heart. Arminians like to focus on the former, Calvinists focus on the latter. But the correct thing is to accept all verses, tell God we do not understand, and pray that He reveal His truth

Ah, this is wisdom! There are many things in scripture difficult for us to comprehend or reconcile. Often, it is not scripture that needs to be reconciled but rather ourselves.

Let us accept the entirety of scripture and understand both played a role. There is need to believe all of scriptures. There is no need for my mind to fully comprehend all that God is saying. For by faith, we understand. It is not through reason, though reason is valuable, that understanding and wisdom from God come about.

If one pushes either extreme (God only chooses or man only chooses) then he will be in a ditch.

BCF
Dec 24th 2008, 04:03 AM
No tree there

-tree of life
-Jesus Christ our Lord

nope, not even close

This is very simple. The tree of life returns in the future and is a part of his reward he brings with him (Rev 22). :B


Revelation 22:2-5,

"In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him: And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads. And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever."

John 1:1-5,

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not anything made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of man. And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not."


Who is it that scripture says is the light?


John 1:29 & 1:36

"The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sins of the world."

"And looking upon Jesus a he walked, he saith, Behold the Lamb of God!"

In those two verses....who does John the Baptist call the Lamb of God?


Here in Colossians 1:15-18, who is the writer Paul referring to in these scriptures?

"Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence."


Here in Genesis 3:15, who is the writer Moses telling us that God is promising satan he will send to bruise his head?

"And I (meaning God) will put enmity between thee (satan) and the woman (female person), and between thy (satan's) seed and her (female person) seed; it (meaning He=Jesus) shall bruise thy head, and thou (satan) shalt bruise his (Jesus) heel."

Who does scripture say the tree is?

I will wait for your response.

God Bless,

Dave

reformedct
Dec 24th 2008, 04:11 AM
Revelation 22:2-5,

"In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him: And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads. And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever."

John 1:1-5,

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not anything made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of man. And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not."


Who is it that scripture says is the light?


John 1:29 & 1:36

"The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sins of the world."

"And looking upon Jesus a he walked, he saith, Behold the Lamb of God!"

In those two verses....who does John the Baptist call the Lamb of God?


Here in Colossians 1:15-18, who is the writer Paul referring to in these scriptures?

"Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence."


Here in Genesis 3:15, who is the writer Moses telling us that God is promising satan he will send to bruise his head?

"And I (meaning God) will put enmity between thee (satan) and the woman (female person), and between thy (satan's) seed and her (female person) seed; it (meaning He=Jesus) shall bruise thy head, and thou (satan) shalt bruise his (Jesus) heel."

Who does scripture say the tree is?

I will wait for your response.

God Bless,

Dave


i dont think the tree is a person or what our "life" is based on lol i think we would do just fine in heaven without it. i agree that it is a special tree, with special power, but it is owned by God, the true source of all life and power.

i see the tree of life similar to the pool where people would be healed in the NT. rember there was a pool or something, and every now and then an angel would stir the waters, and the first person to get in the water was healed? God used the water to heal, as he did Pauls shadow. But it is ultimately God who heals and gives life. so the tree of life is special, but it is not necessary imo

Sirus
Dec 24th 2008, 04:27 AM
sirius, i would like to ask you your perspective? with scripture to back up as well please

we must not dismiss concepts just because they seem contradictory. for example in the OT many verses say Pharoah hardened his heart, then many verses say God hardened his heart. Arminians like to focus on the former, Calvinists focus on the latter. But the correct thing is to accept all verses, tell God we do not understand, and pray that He reveal His truth

So if the bible says God grants repentance, we must also accept this as true, no? and if people must pray that God would grant someone repentance, it seems like they don't have repentance yet

i will be to the first to say i dont understand everything, but i do understand that our interpretations must allow all scriptures to breathe. We can't emphasize one and cast down anotherI am thrilled to see you adhere to the holistic method of interpretation of Scripture!

I not Armenian, but Armenians cling for a reason, Calvinist have no excuse.

There's only one place Scripture says God grants repentance;

Act 11:18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

This was when the Church realized fulfillment of prophecy concerning Gentiles receiving the promise of predestinated adoption. It is not individualist.

Pharaoh was granted repentance. Yep. God hardened his heart through the plagues in which Pharaoh could have made the choice to give in to God on any one of them. But he hardened his heart, thinking himself to be a god.

I am so glad you asked this!!!!
God grants repentance to all through the Son (body -John 6).

Question
Joh 6:28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?

Answer
Joh 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

Question
Joh 6:30 They said therefore unto him, What sign showest thou then, that we may see, and believe thee? what dost thou work?
Joh 6:31 Our fathers did eat manna in the desert; as it is written, He gave them bread from heaven to eat.

Answer
Joh 6:32 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven.
Joh 6:33 For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world.

Question
Joh 6:34 Then said they unto him, Lord, evermore give us this bread.

Answer
Joh 6:35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.

Now, what is this about no man coming to the Father unless He is drawn? How is he drawn? Jesus said He would draw all men if lifted up.

Do you see it?

Sirus
Dec 24th 2008, 04:29 AM
Revelation 22:2-5,

"In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him: And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads. And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever."

John 1:1-5,

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not anything made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of man. And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not."


Who is it that scripture says is the light?


John 1:29 & 1:36

"The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sins of the world."

"And looking upon Jesus a he walked, he saith, Behold the Lamb of God!"

In those two verses....who does John the Baptist call the Lamb of God?


Here in Colossians 1:15-18, who is the writer Paul referring to in these scriptures?

"Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence."


Here in Genesis 3:15, who is the writer Moses telling us that God is promising satan he will send to bruise his head?

"And I (meaning God) will put enmity between thee (satan) and the woman (female person), and between thy (satan's) seed and her (female person) seed; it (meaning He=Jesus) shall bruise thy head, and thou (satan) shalt bruise his (Jesus) heel."

Who does scripture say the tree is?

I will wait for your response.

God Bless,

Davetree is tree, not Jesus

Although it does give eternal life and is created by Jesus, still....not Jesus

I won't hug a tree :rofl:but I can't wait to hug Jesus!

BCF
Dec 24th 2008, 04:52 AM
tree is tree, not Jesus

Although it does give eternal life and is created by Jesus, still....not Jesus

I won't hug a tree :rofl:but I can't wait to hug Jesus!

Then my friend....can I ask your interpretation of this verse by Jesus in John 15:5-6:

"I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned."


God Bless,

Dave

Sirus
Dec 24th 2008, 05:00 AM
Is what it is, quite plainly. Nothng is said about twelves manner of friut bearing every month and leaves healing nations etc....

Jesus is our life (dead IN Christ), however for mortals in the millennium, they'll need a real, literal, physical, tree provided by Jesus just as it was for Adam, my friend.

BCF
Dec 24th 2008, 05:27 AM
Is what it is, quite plainly. Nothng is said about twelves manner of friut bearing every month and leaves healing nations etc....

Jesus is our life (dead IN Christ), however for mortals in the millennium, they'll need a real, literal, physical, tree provided by Jesus just as it was for Adam, my friend.


Right...and that tree would be the tree of life.

Sirus
Dec 24th 2008, 05:34 AM
who would be the tree of life?
who's on first..........
tree is on second.....

BCF
Dec 24th 2008, 05:43 AM
who would be the tree of life?
who's on first..........
tree is on second.....


Well..who was the tree for Adam?

Sirus
Dec 24th 2008, 05:53 AM
who walked with Adam in the cool of the day in the garden? If it was Jesus, who was the tree? Oh that's right, he's omnipresent....forgot....

AliveinChristDave
Dec 24th 2008, 05:53 AM
This is one of the most informative threads I've ever read in this forum.
It's needful also because it's making us (me in particular) go back to the beginning and dig a little deeper.

BCF
Dec 24th 2008, 05:58 AM
who walked with Adam in the cool of the day in the garden? If it was Jesus, who was the tree? Oh that's right, he's omnipresent....forgot....

That's right....God is omnipresent. I must call it a night with you my friend. But we will pick up with this tomorrow. Maybe I'll have some more scripture for you to look up.;)

God Bless

Dave

Yukerboy
Dec 24th 2008, 06:48 AM
God wills all repent but only gives to some.....makes perfect sense! Oh that's right....all does not mean all....or it is just all chosen. Sorry, but that is not what it says.

God's desires and God's will are two seperate things. God desires that all come to repentance, but his will grants some to come to repentance.

God desires all men to be saved. If God's will was that all men be saved, then all men would be saved.


i dont think the tree is a person or what our "life" is based on lol i think we would do just fine in heaven without it. i agree that it is a special tree, with special power, but it is owned by God, the true source of all life and power.


If you eat of the tree, you have eternal life.

If you are in Christ, you have eternal life.

The only way to eternal life is through Christ.

Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you.

For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink.

Walstib
Dec 24th 2008, 04:09 PM
Keep in mind that while Adam was not in need of rescuing before the fall, neither did he share in God's uncreated, eternal life. So while his spirit was connected to God in that he could fellowship with God, he was not one with God.


What's different for mankind after Jesus is that we share in God's uncreated life. His life is now in us and as Jesus prayed, we are one with God (John 16-17). I think I see it a little different. The way I have been seeing spirit lately, a spirit in any condition it is of God. So in a way all share in God’s life, unregenerate and regenerate alike. A sealing kind of indwelling of Mr. Holy Spirit promises life everlasting, a union rather than the previous being of God but not united with Him.
I think Adam could have experienced that same thing through the eating of the Tree of Life. But instead, he chose life for himself, and so lost his life. There is much to glean from these passages. Maybe silly but I don’t see any reason Adam could not have been eating from the tree of life daily. At the very least he was allowed to eat of it. Adam had law before he ate of the tree, the very command not to eat was the first proclaimed law. Yet I think it hard to argue the unwritten law and eternal law was not in full force even though only one law was proclaimed. Adam’s flesh was in full swing against the spirit before “the fall”. That he decided to break the only proclaimed law I think shows this, and leads me to think Adam was guilty of the unwritten before found guilty of the first proclaimed law. Needing the spiritual Tree of Life daily. ;)

After recieving the knowledge of good and evil, lost his ignorance of the unwritten law, his conscience was enlightened, he became as good as dead.

What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, "You shall not covet." But sin, taking opportunity by the commandment, produced in me all manner of evil desire. For apart from the law sin was dead. I was alive once without the law, but when the commandment came, sin revived and I died. And the commandment, which was to bring life, I found to bring death. For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it killed me. Therefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy and just and good. Has then what is good become death to me? Certainly not! But sin, that it might appear sin, was producing death in me through what is good, so that sin through the commandment might become exceedingly sinful. (Rom 7:7-13 NKJV)

Some thoughts to throw in the mix anyway.

Peace,
Joe