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Thaddaeus
Dec 21st 2008, 08:55 AM
2ti 2:10 (http://bibleforums.org/2ti+2:10)Therefore I endure all things for the ELECT's SAKEs, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

paul does not say that he has done all he has because that he don't know who is in or out but that the elect( the ones that a calvinist says that are in) may obtain salvation

if the elect are the ones predestined for the kingdom, why did Paul who was supposely the one who taught us about calvinist doctrine of grace, why did he then think that the ones predetermined in, needed salvation. or could it possibly be that God's elect was simply His coosen people the Jews who also needed to call upon the name of the Lord for their salvation also. and man came up with the doctrine of grace through the calvinist view point. But God gave free will and only by His foreknowledge of those who call upon the name of the Lord, and not Him predetermining and if God is not a respect of persons wouldn't we all either have to be in hell or in heaven, unless he predetermined to give us a choice. if calvinist are correct with their doctrineof predestation then my Bible has a major contradition in it, I believe i will throw it away, there are three things that I know God can't do according to scriptures He can't Lie , he can't be the author of confusion, ( no contraditions in His Word) and he is not a respect of persons
Tit 1:2 (http://bibleforums.org/tit+1:2)In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;

1co 14:33 (http://bibleforums.org/1co+14:33)For God is not the AUTHOR OF CONFUSION, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

Ro 2:11 (http://bibleforums.org/ro+2:11)For there is no RESPECT OF PERSONS with God.

and watch if your faith is in a God just says there you are in heaven but the next one is in hell, you go against, not with scriptures but against the word of God.
Jas 2:1 (http://bibleforums.org/jas+2:1)My brethren, have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with RESPECT OF PERSONS.

:hmm: think about it!! but please if you can tell me how this verse(2tim 2:10) fits in with your view point

Rullion Green
Dec 21st 2008, 09:51 AM
TO WHOM ARE WE TO PREACH THIS ?



Possibly, one brother says, “You ought to preach Christ to the elect.” But how are we to know which ones are the elect? I read a sermon, some time ago, in which the minister said, “I have been preaching to the living in Zion; the rest of you are dead, and I have nothing to say to you. The elect has been given eternal life, and the rest of you are blinded.” Preachers of that sort have life to preach to the living, and medicine to prescribe for those who are healthy, but what is the good of that? Imagine Peter standing up with the eleven on the day of Pentecost, and saying to the crowd gathered around them, “I don’t know how many of you who are here are elect but I have to say to you that the election have received eternal life, and the rest are blinded.” How many would have been converted and added to the church through such a message as that? Now Peter was at that time filled with the Spirit, and it was by divine inspiration that he preached Christ crucified; to everyone of that mixed multitude, and then, when they were cut to the heart, and cried out, “Brothers, what shall we do?” he was equally inspired when he answered, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.”



I intend to do as Peter did, for I regard Christ’s commission to his disciples as binding upon us today: “Go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation.” I cannot tell whether every creature in all creation to whom I preach is elect or not, but it is my business to preach the gospel to everyone I can reach, resting assured that all of them whom God has chosen to eternal life will certainly accept it. When a certain minister asked the Duke of Wellington, “Do you think it is of any use preaching the gospel to the Hindus?” he simply replied, “What are your marching orders?” As a soldier, the duke believed in obeying orders; and when the minister answered that, the orders were to, “Preach the good news to all creation,” the duke said, “Then your duty is quite clear; obey your Master’s orders, and don’t trouble yourself about anybody else’s opinions.”

by

C. H. Spurgeon

Hope it helps :)

dan
Dec 21st 2008, 12:20 PM
2ti 2:10 (http://bibleforums.org/2ti+2:10)Therefore I endure all things for the ELECT's SAKEs, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

paul does not say that he has done all he has because that he don't know who is in or out but that the elect( the ones that a calvinist says that are in) may obtain salvation

:hmm: think about it!! but please if you can tell me how this verse(2tim 2:10) fits in with your view point

...For interjecting, but a thought occurred to me, as I read your post.

Jesus said that, "My sheep know my voice". But if the voice is not heard, perhaps salvation can not be acquired.

JN 10:3 To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out.
JN 10:4 And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.

Also, Jesus said that, "The end shall not come until this gospel (His voice?) is preached throughout the world."

MT 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

reformedct
Dec 21st 2008, 05:51 PM
Good post.

i think the confusion is coming up with the idea of respect of persons and free will

i would normally tell you that free will is a myth but i will even give you "free will" for now. What i would say is man has free will to choose everything exxcept what he ought, being a slave to sin and bondage.

now respect of persons. I believe this simply means God doesn't think one person is in and of themselves better than another, and that all mankind is in the same condition, dead in their sins. Grace is the giving of something not deserved. None of us deserve anything, but some of us find favor. The gospel is a call to all men, but all men do not hear. Even those who die without hearing about Jesus will still be judged because o their own concsience


deuteronomy 9 shows how God shows favor based on His will

4 “Do not say in your heart, after the Lord your God has thrust them out before you, ‘It is because of my righteousness that the Lord has brought me in to possess this land,’ whereas it is because of the wickedness of these nations that the Lord is driving them out before you. 5 Not because of your righteousness or the uprightness of your heart are you going in to possess their land, but because of the wickedness of these nations the Lord your God is driving them out from before you, and that he may confirm the word that the Lord swore to your fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob.
6 “Know, therefore, that the Lord your God is not giving you this good land to possess because of your righteousness, for you are a stubborn people. 7 Remember and do not forget how you provoked the Lord your God to wrath in the wilderness. From the day you came out of the land of Egypt until you came to this place, you have been rebellious against the Lord.


also, just because their seems to be a contradiciton on the surface doesn't mean there is

for example faith and works from romans 3 and James


it is also true that God does whatever pleases Him, he raises some up and casts some down, but he is also not a respector of persons. This does not mean that He doesn't show favor, thats what favor is, it is grace

does that make any sense?


respector of persons doesn't mean God doesnt show "favoritism"

God sovereignly "favored" Israel over all other nations. Just look at all the tribes and nations that God didn't even reveal Himself to in the OT. He just let them all die. was israel better than them? No, because Abraham, the father of the Jews, came from a pagan, false-god worshipping society. God chose to call Him out. they were not better people in and of themselves.

RogerW
Dec 21st 2008, 06:41 PM
2ti 2:10 (http://bibleforums.org/2ti+2:10)Therefore I endure all things for the ELECT's SAKEs, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

paul does not say that he has done all he has because that he don't know who is in or out but that the elect( the ones that a calvinist says that are in) [NO, NOT CALVINISTS, BUT THE WORD OF GOD SAYS WILL, NOT MAY, BUT WILL OBTAIN SALVATION] may obtain salvation

if the elect are the ones predestined for the kingdom, why did Paul who was supposely the one who taught us about calvinist doctrine of grace, [PAUL TEACHES THE DOCTRINE OF SCRIPTURE, WHICH ARE THE DOCTRINES OF SOVEREIGN GRACE, AND HAPPEN TO ALIGN WITH THE DOCTRINES TAUGHT BY JOHN CALVIN] why did he then think that the ones predetermined in, needed salvation.

:hmm: think about it!! but please if you can tell me how this verse(2tim 2:10) fits in with your view point

The elect of God are not born saved already. They too must hear the gospel of salvation, and receive faith through the hearing (Ro 10:17) to become saved. They are elect unto salvation, not born already saved. The elect, like all men born in Adam are born spiritually dead, and in bondage to Satan, sin and death, in need of a Savior to redeem them.

According to Paul, there is an elect people, chosen by God and given to Christ (Jo 6:37-39; 17:2,9), for whom Christ suffered and died. It is on their account that Paul preaches the gospel, and it is sent unto all the world (Jo 10:24-28; Ro 10:13-14). For the sake of God's elect Paul (and all ministers) are called and qualified, so, whatever suffering, afflictions or reproach Paul and these ministers bear, they do so cheerfully if it promotes the salvation of the Lord's elect Church. Paul, and we must be willing to go to jail to preach to a jailer or prisoners, or to the hospital to preach to patients or to a leper colony to preach to one of Christ's elect children, wherever they may be throughout the world. The goal is the salvation and eternal glory of His Elect Church, so whatever Paul or we endure here is nothing (Ro 8:18) for the sake of the gospel, and redemption of His elect.

Many Blessings,
RW

Prophet Daniel
Dec 21st 2008, 06:54 PM
I God is bigger that time and space. He is omnipresent everywhere in time and space. He is before Abraham. He is before the world began. He is. Not was. If He is before the foundation of the world now.He can write my name in the book of life before the foundation of the world based on my confesission today when I repent.

Everyone is chosen if they believe it.

reformedct
Dec 21st 2008, 07:01 PM
I God is bigger that time and space. He is omnipresent everywhere in time and space. He is before Abraham. He is before the world began. He is. Not was. If He is before the foundation of the world now.He can write my name in the book of life before the foundation of the world based on my confesission today when I repent.

Everyone is chosen if they believe it.

so true and so simple! election simply means that in the end, all the people who are saved are the elect! thats all. We personally don't know whose elect or not, and we won't know until we preach the gospel to all. All who respond correctly are elect. Because God knows the begginning from the end he knows who those people are

if you are here and you are trusting in Christ and repentant of sin and bearing fruit you are elect

neverleaveunorfors
Dec 21st 2008, 07:11 PM
no one can come to me unless the father draws him (or calls him ) alll the the father has given me none is lost except the son of purditaion so that the scripture may be filled

BroRog
Dec 21st 2008, 07:30 PM
If it's a question of the meaning of the term "elect", the answer is that the term "elect" is sometimes used to indicate the Jewish people and at other times it is used to indicate those whom God has chosen for salvation.

When we quote single verses at each other we always run into difficulty because without the rest of the passage, we have no idea which meaning Paul intended.

I'm advocating that we try to discuss verses in light of the rest of the passage in which they reside. If we do this we will go a long way in avoiding confusion.

RogerW
Dec 21st 2008, 07:43 PM
If it's a question of the meaning of the term "elect", the answer is that the term "elect" is sometimes used to indicate the Jewish people and at other times it is used to indicate those whom God has chosen for salvation.

When we quote single verses at each other we always run into difficulty because without the rest of the passage, we have no idea which meaning Paul intended.

I'm advocating that we try to discuss verses in light of the rest of the passage in which they reside. If we do this we will go a long way in avoiding confusion.

Greetings BroRog,

Can you show me any Scripture where the term "elect" when used to indicate the Jewish nation, also means His eternally elect? I know the Jews were His people, chosen to fulfill His purpose in time, but does the Bible ever tell us the whole nation are the eternally elect of God? Or are you referring to the saved remnant from among the Jewish nation?

The way I understand the elect of God is unto salvation = the remnant from the Jewish nation saved before the cross plus the great multitude that no man can number from every nation of the world.

Many Blessings,
RW

Sirus
Dec 21st 2008, 07:49 PM
no one can come to me unless the father draws him (or calls him ) alll the the father has given me none is lost except the son of purditaion so that the scripture may be filledHow are men drawn? Please post scripture.

BroRog
Dec 21st 2008, 08:00 PM
Greetings BroRog,

Can you show me any Scripture where the term "elect" when used to indicate the Jewish nation, also means His eternally elect? I know the Jews were His people, chosen to fulfill His purpose in time, but does the Bible ever tell us the whole nation are the eternally elect of God? Or are you referring to the saved remnant from among the Jewish nation?

I'm not sure what you are asking me. Are you asking me to show you where the term is used to indicate both at the same time?


The way I understand the elect of God is unto salvation = the remnant from the Jewish nation saved before the cross plus the great multitude that no man can number from every nation of the world.

The following passage from Deuteronomy does not necessarily imply anything about salvation.

For you are a holy people to the LORD your God; the LORD your God has chosen you to be a people for His own possession out of all the peoples who are on the face of the earth. Deuteronomy 7:6, 14:2

RogerW
Dec 21st 2008, 08:11 PM
I'm not sure what you are asking me. Are you asking me to show you where the term is used to indicate both at the same time?

The following passage from Deuteronomy does not necessarily imply anything about salvation.

For you are a holy people to the LORD your God; the LORD your God has chosen you to be a people for His own possession out of all the peoples who are on the face of the earth. Deuteronomy 7:6, 14:2

Hi BroRog,

The nation being chosen by God came with stipulations.

De 7:7 The LORD did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye were the fewest of all people:
De 7:8 But because the LORD loved you, and because he would keep the oath which he had sworn unto your fathers, hath the LORD brought you out with a mighty hand, and redeemed you out of the house of bondmen, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt.
De 7:9 Know therefore that the LORD thy God, he is God, the faithful God, which keepeth covenant and mercy with them that love him and keep his commandments to a thousand generations;
De 7:10 And repayeth them that hate him to their face, to destroy them: he will not be slack to him that hateth him, he will repay him to his face.

Can the same thing be said regarding the saved remnant or the elect from the Jewish nation? Are there stipulations when referring to the elect as with the chosen; i.e. do this and live, do this and die?

Many Blessings,
RW

BroRog
Dec 21st 2008, 08:47 PM
Hi BroRog,

The nation being chosen by God came with stipulations.

De 7:7 The LORD did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye were the fewest of all people:
De 7:8 But because the LORD loved you, and because he would keep the oath which he had sworn unto your fathers, hath the LORD brought you out with a mighty hand, and redeemed you out of the house of bondmen, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt.
De 7:9 Know therefore that the LORD thy God, he is God, the faithful God, which keepeth covenant and mercy with them that love him and keep his commandments to a thousand generations;
De 7:10 And repayeth them that hate him to their face, to destroy them: he will not be slack to him that hateth him, he will repay him to his face.

I agree that God made certain stipulations, but his relationship with that family line had no contingency.


Can the same thing be said regarding the saved remnant or the elect from the Jewish nation? Are there stipulations when referring to the elect as with the chosen; i.e. do this and live, do this and die?


The stipulation "do this and live" still remains a viable promise to Israel. The difference, of course, will remain, as it always has been, in the hearts and minds of the people.

scourge39
Dec 21st 2008, 09:19 PM
The elect are all who will be saved includes both OT saints, Gentile Christians and Jewish Christians that will be saved from the beginning of human history to the Second Coming. Ephesians 2 clearly speaks of a singular people of God.

reformedct
Dec 21st 2008, 09:53 PM
I'm not sure what you are asking me. Are you asking me to show you where the term is used to indicate both at the same time?



The following passage from Deuteronomy does not necessarily imply anything about salvation.

For you are a holy people to the LORD your God; the LORD your God has chosen you to be a people for His own possession out of all the peoples who are on the face of the earth. Deuteronomy 7:6, 14:2


remember i think there is a verse where Paul tells his brethren to be diligent to produce good works to make their calling and election sure. How could he be talking only about Jews?

BroRog
Dec 22nd 2008, 01:40 AM
remember i think there is a verse where Paul tells his brethren to be diligent to produce good works to make their calling and election sure. How could he be talking only about Jews?

I believe you are thinking of the verse in Peter's epistle. Try 2Peter 1:10

Also, I'm not saying that the term "elect" exclusively applies to the Jews. But it does refer to all Jews in the following passage from Matthew 24.

Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short.

What Jesus means is, the Great Tribulation will not last so long that it wipes out every Jew on earth.

Butch5
Dec 22nd 2008, 04:03 AM
2ti 2:10 (http://bibleforums.org/2ti+2:10)Therefore I endure all things for the ELECT's SAKEs, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

paul does not say that he has done all he has because that he don't know who is in or out but that the elect( the ones that a calvinist says that are in) may obtain salvation

if the elect are the ones predestined for the kingdom, why did Paul who was supposely the one who taught us about calvinist doctrine of grace, why did he then think that the ones predetermined in, needed salvation. or could it possibly be that God's elect was simply His coosen people the Jews who also needed to call upon the name of the Lord for their salvation also. and man came up with the doctrine of grace through the calvinist view point. But God gave free will and only by His foreknowledge of those who call upon the name of the Lord, and not Him predetermining and if God is not a respect of persons wouldn't we all either have to be in hell or in heaven, unless he predetermined to give us a choice. if calvinist are correct with their doctrineof predestation then my Bible has a major contradition in it, I believe i will throw it away, there are three things that I know God can't do according to scriptures He can't Lie , he can't be the author of confusion, ( no contraditions in His Word) and he is not a respect of persons
Tit 1:2 (http://bibleforums.org/tit+1:2)In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;

1co 14:33 (http://bibleforums.org/1co+14:33)For God is not the AUTHOR OF CONFUSION, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

Ro 2:11 (http://bibleforums.org/ro+2:11)For there is no RESPECT OF PERSONS with God.

and watch if your faith is in a God just says there you are in heaven but the next one is in hell, you go against, not with scriptures but against the word of God.
Jas 2:1 (http://bibleforums.org/jas+2:1)My brethren, have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with RESPECT OF PERSONS.

:hmm: think about it!! but please if you can tell me how this verse(2tim 2:10) fits in with your view point

You read it right, The elect are not guaranteed salvation. They must endure to the end.

Thaddaeus
Dec 22nd 2008, 04:54 AM
what does respect of person mean then >???????

Ac 10:34Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:Ac 10:35But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.Ac 10:36The word which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: (he is Lord of all:)

Thaddaeus
Dec 22nd 2008, 04:58 AM
I believe you are thinking of the verse in Peter's epistle. Try 2Peter 1:10

Also, I'm not saying that the term "elect" exclusively applies to the Jews. But it does refer to all Jews in the following passage from Matthew 24.

Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short.

What Jesus means is, the Great Tribulation will not last so long that it wipes out every Jew on earth.

Are you saying here then paul knew who the elect was , but I thought that was where preaching came in because we couldn't know who the elect are :o:o:o

2pe 1:10Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

Thaddaeus
Dec 22nd 2008, 05:02 AM
The elect of God are not born saved already. They too must hear the gospel of salvation, and receive faith through the hearing (Ro 10:17) to become saved. They are elect unto salvation, not born already saved. The elect, like all men born in Adam are born spiritually dead, and in bondage to Satan, sin and death, in need of a Savior to redeem them.

According to Paul, there is an elect people, chosen by God and given to Christ (Jo 6:37-39; 17:2,9), for whom Christ suffered and died. It is on their account that Paul preaches the gospel, and it is sent unto all the world (Jo 10:24-28; Ro 10:13-14). For the sake of God's elect Paul (and all ministers) are called and qualified, so, whatever suffering, afflictions or reproach Paul and these ministers bear, they do so cheerfully if it promotes the salvation of the Lord's elect Church. Paul, and we must be willing to go to jail to preach to a jailer or prisoners, or to the hospital to preach to patients or to a leper colony to preach to one of Christ's elect children, wherever they may be throughout the world. The goal is the salvation and eternal glory of His Elect Church, so whatever Paul or we endure here is nothing (Ro 8:18) for the sake of the gospel, and redemption of His elect.

Many Blessings,
RW


this is nothing like what i said in my orginal post how did you change my post

BroRog
Dec 22nd 2008, 05:10 AM
Are you saying here then paul knew who the elect was , but I thought that was where preaching came in because we couldn't know who the elect are :o:o:o

2pe 1:10Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

No, I'm saying the word "elect" is used in two different ways in the Bible. Sometimes the term refers to the Jews, sometimes the term refers to the saved.

Thaddaeus
Dec 22nd 2008, 05:16 AM
Greetings BroRog,

Can you show me any Scripture where the term "elect" when used to indicate the Jewish nation, also means His eternally elect? I know the Jews were His people, chosen to fulfill His purpose in time, but does the Bible ever tell us the whole nation are the eternally elect of God? Or are you referring to the saved remnant from among the Jewish nation?

The way I understand the elect of God is unto salvation = the remnant from the Jewish nation saved before the cross plus the great multitude that no man can number from every nation of the world.

Many Blessings,
RW
Ro 11:26And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:Ro 11:27For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.Ro 11:28As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.Ro 11:29For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.Ro 11:30For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:Ro 11:31Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.Ro 11:32For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

verse 28 is saying that the jews are the elect, but at the same time enemies according to the gospel, then notice in verse 30 we(gentiles) didn't obtain because we were the elect but because of the elect's unbelief, How can an unbeliever be The one God elected into his kingdom, wow what a mixed up doctrine

Joh 3:18He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.


but calvinist says the even though the elect is unbelievers, they will be in heaven ?????

Veretax
Dec 22nd 2008, 01:02 PM
I already said this in another thread, but I believe the Elect or those who are saved, and those who are predestined by God to then serve him.

Eph 2:8-10

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.


The bolded portion is what began to change my beliefs concerning the Calvinist line of thinking on Predestination. There is also the idea that Election as a human concept has always dealt with being chosen to server a purpose or position. The calvinist viewpoint seems to think that the position or purpose is Salvation, yet I've found that if the calvinistic viewpoint goes to its Hyper Extreme that they begin to live in conflict with the Great Commission. Jesus said to go into all the world proclaiming the Gospel and making disciples of all nations, and to baptize them in the name of the father, son, and holy spirit.

This is what I believe in this realm.