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Firstfruits
Dec 21st 2008, 11:40 AM
According to the following scriptures concerning prayer, we are we are taught that when we pray we should "Therefore Let Thy Words Be Few"

Eccles 5:2 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=21&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=2) Be not rash with thy mouth, and let not thine heart Be hasty to utter any thing Before God: for God is in heaven, and thou upon earth: therefore let thy words Be few.

Mt 6:7 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=7) But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.

In contrast to what it says concerning long prayer;

Mt 23:14 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=23&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=14) Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation.

Mk 12:40 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=41&CHAP=12&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=40) Which devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayers: these shall receive greater damnation.

Lk 20:47 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=42&CHAP=20&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=47) Which devour widows' houses, and for a shew make long prayers: the same shall receive greater damnation.

Do we still apply "Therefore Let Thy Words Be Few" when we pray? :bible:

God bless you!

Firstfruits

mikebr
Dec 21st 2008, 12:57 PM
According to the following scriptures concerning prayer, we are we are taught that when we pray we should "Therefore Let Thy Words Be Few"

Eccles 5:2 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=21&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=2) Be not rash with thy mouth, and let not thine heart Be hasty to utter any thing Before God: for God is in heaven, and thou upon earth: therefore let thy words Be few.

Mt 6:7 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=7) But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.

In contrast to what it says concerning long prayer;

Mt 23:14 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=23&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=14) Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation.

Mk 12:40 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=41&CHAP=12&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=40) Which devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayers: these shall receive greater damnation.

Lk 20:47 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=42&CHAP=20&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=47) Which devour widows' houses, and for a shew make long prayers: the same shall receive greater damnation.

Do we still apply "Therefore Let Thy Words Be Few" when we pray? :bible:

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Yes. May I decreast that you should increase. Amen

Walstib
Dec 21st 2008, 01:12 PM
HI FF,

Your post gave me thought to some questions.

How do we pray always with few words and not have it vain repetition?

Is your focus about personal prayer or corporate prayer. Both?

Peace,
Joe

Firstfruits
Dec 21st 2008, 01:59 PM
HI FF,

Your post gave me thought to some questions.

How do we pray always with few words and not have it vain repetition?

Is your focus about personal prayer or corporate prayer. Both?

Peace,
Joe

It says when you utter/say anything to God, it makes no differences.

Eccles 5:2 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=21&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=2) Be not rash with thy mouth, and let not thine heart Be hasty to utter any thing Before God: for God is in heaven, and thou upon earth: therefore let thy words Be few.

Gods position does not change from prayer to prayer, God is still in Heaven and we are still upon earth.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Dec 21st 2008, 02:02 PM
Yes. May I decreast that you should increase. Amen

Thanks Mikebr,

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Brother Mark
Dec 21st 2008, 02:13 PM
It says when you utter/say anything to God, it makes no differences.

Eccles 5:2 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=21&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=2) Be not rash with thy mouth, and let not thine heart Be hasty to utter any thing Before God: for God is in heaven, and thou upon earth: therefore let thy words Be few.

Gods position does not change from prayer to prayer, God is still in Heaven and we are still upon earth.

God bless you!

Firstfruits


Ecclesiastes is a difficult book to build a doctrine upon. Moses changed God's mind through prayer concerning Israel.

Jesus himself gave an example of a woman before an unjust judge.

Yet, we would all benefit during prayer if we said less and listened more.

Walstib
Dec 21st 2008, 02:39 PM
It says when you utter/say anything to God, it makes no differences.

What if I speak in my thought life without using my mouth or words? Does this single verse then not apply?

The whole passage to me speaks more about making promises and oaths before God. Would you be willing to discuss that possibility. Or am I just going beyond what is written... you can tell me straight up, I have big shoulders. :)

But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne: (Mat 5:34 KJV)

When thou vowest a vow unto God, defer not to pay it; for he hath no pleasure in fools: pay that which thou hast vowed. Better is it that thou shouldest not vow, than that thou shouldest vow and not pay. Suffer not thy mouth to cause thy flesh to sin; neither say thou before the angel, that it was an error: wherefore should God be angry at thy voice, and destroy the work of thine hands? (Ecc 5:4-6 KJV)


Night and day praying exceedingly that we might see your face, and might perfect that which is lacking in your faith?(1Th 3:10 KJV)

Peace,
Joe

Firstfruits
Dec 21st 2008, 06:38 PM
What if I speak in my thought life without using my mouth or words? Does this single verse then not apply?

The whole passage to me speaks more about making promises and oaths before God. Would you be willing to discuss that possibility. Or am I just going beyond what is written... you can tell me straight up, I have big shoulders. :)

But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne: (Mat 5:34 KJV)

When thou vowest a vow unto God, defer not to pay it; for he hath no pleasure in fools: pay that which thou hast vowed. Better is it that thou shouldest not vow, than that thou shouldest vow and not pay. Suffer not thy mouth to cause thy flesh to sin; neither say thou before the angel, that it was an error: wherefore should God be angry at thy voice, and destroy the work of thine hands? (Ecc 5:4-6 KJV)


Night and day praying exceedingly that we might see your face, and might perfect that which is lacking in your faith?(1Th 3:10 KJV)

Peace,
Joe

However Jesus taught the Disciples to pray confirming that which was already written;

Mt 6:7 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=7) But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.

Has what Christ taught changed, concerning prayer?

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Bladers
Dec 21st 2008, 07:40 PM
According to the following scriptures concerning prayer, we are we are taught that when we pray we should "Therefore Let Thy Words Be Few"

Eccles 5:2 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=21&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=2) Be not rash with thy mouth, and let not thine heart Be hasty to utter any thing Before God: for God is in heaven, and thou upon earth: therefore let thy words Be few.

Mt 6:7 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=7) But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.

In contrast to what it says concerning long prayer;

Mt 23:14 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=23&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=14) Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation.

Mk 12:40 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=41&CHAP=12&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=40) Which devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayers: these shall receive greater damnation.

Lk 20:47 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=42&CHAP=20&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=47) Which devour widows' houses, and for a shew make long prayers: the same shall receive greater damnation.

Do we still apply "Therefore Let Thy Words Be Few" when we pray? :bible:

God bless you!

Firstfruits


My brother this is more powerful and in-depth than i think you guys can handle, its much much deeper than what you guys think.

Much much deeper. My brother, if i start opening my mouth i wont finish. and you also need to be in the spirit to understand it. Much much deeper, so great is true prayer.

True prayer has been misunderstood by most christians.

Look, When Jesus prayed at Gethsemane, He prayed one sentence and it lasted him more than a hour. One sentence my brothers. Jesus would pray from afternoon to night. from morning to evening.

Firstfruits
Dec 21st 2008, 08:37 PM
My brother this is more powerful and in-depth than i think you guys can handle, its much much deeper than what you guys think.

Much much deeper. My brother, if i start opening my mouth i wont finish. and you also need to be in the spirit to understand it. Much much deeper, so great is true prayer.

True prayer has been misunderstood by most christians.

Look, When Jesus prayed at Gethsemane, He prayed one sentence and it lasted him more than a hour. One sentence my brothers. Jesus would pray from afternoon to night. from morning to evening.

You could also compare it to the example Christ gave the disciles "The Lords Prayer" It was short but very meaningful.

Thanks for your imput.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Dec 22nd 2008, 12:24 PM
A word to the wise!!

Prov 17:27 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=20&CHAP=17&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=27) He that hath knowledge spareth his words: and a man of understanding is of an excellent spirit.

Prov 17:28 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=20&CHAP=17&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=28) Even a fool, when he holdeth his peace, is counted wise: and he that shutteth his lips is esteemed a man of understanding.

"Therefore let thy words be few"

Firstfruits

Emanate
Dec 22nd 2008, 01:39 PM
My brother this is more powerful and in-depth than i think you guys can handle, its much much deeper than what you guys think.


I suppose it is a good thing that we have one so spiritually in tune so you can share with those of us who have no understanding.

Firstfruits
Dec 22nd 2008, 01:58 PM
I suppose it is a good thing that we have one so spiritually in tune so you can share with those of us who have no understanding.

The message we get from these scriptures is as it says which is letting our words be few;

Prov 10:19 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=20&CHAP=10&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=19) In the multitude of words there wanteth not sin: but he that refraineth his lips is wise. (Have a look at the different translations of this scripture if unsure of meaning)

As Bladers has said there is more to it than some of us may believe, or understand.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

carissadawn
Dec 22nd 2008, 07:07 PM
I have always wondered: How can we "pray unceasingly" if we are to use few words? :confused

Emanate
Dec 22nd 2008, 07:27 PM
I have always wondered: How can we "pray unceasingly" if we are to use few words? :confused


Most of these verses are not referring to prayer.

carissadawn
Dec 22nd 2008, 07:29 PM
Most of these verses are not referring to prayer.

This one seems to referto prayer: Eccles 5:2 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=21&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=2) Be not rash with thy mouth, and let not thine heart Be hasty to utter any thing Before God: for God is in heaven, and thou upon earth: therefore let thy words Be few.

Emanate
Dec 22nd 2008, 07:36 PM
This one seems to referto prayer: Eccles 5:2 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=21&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=2) Be not rash with thy mouth, and let not thine heart Be hasty to utter any thing Before God: for God is in heaven, and thou upon earth: therefore let thy words Be few.



possibly prayer, or possibly oaths

carissadawn
Dec 22nd 2008, 08:07 PM
possibly prayer, or possibly oaths

Oaths? Would you mind elaborating please? :)

Firstfruits
Dec 22nd 2008, 09:12 PM
Most of these verses are not referring to prayer.

It does say "utter any thing before God".

Eccles 5:2 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=21&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=2) Be not rash with thy mouth, and let not thine heart Be hasty to utter any thing Before God: for God is in heaven, and thou upon earth: therefore let thy words Be few.

So whether oath or prayer "Therefore let thy words be few"

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Dec 22nd 2008, 09:17 PM
I have always wondered: How can we "pray unceasingly" if we are to use few words? :confused

I believe the following answers your question;

Rom 12:12 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=12&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=12) Rejoicing in hope; patient in tribulation; continuing instant in prayer;

Meaning that you are always ready to pray at all times.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

reformedct
Dec 22nd 2008, 09:22 PM
i thank God for these verses

how many times have we heard preachers tell us we need to get up and pray for an hour a day?

i used to do this and basically just make up things to say.

the issue is not length but content. God wants us to just let it out, stop beating around the bush, and when youve said what you need to say, just shut up! haha

prayer is nothing more than coming before the throne of God to talk to Him

its simply talking to Him. It is special because we are going before God but we dont have to act all religious when we pray. Just be yourself, respectful to God, and honest

say what you gotta say and leave it at that

Emanate
Dec 22nd 2008, 09:23 PM
Oaths? Would you mind elaborating please? :)


Swearing something by heaven

Firstfruits
Dec 22nd 2008, 10:06 PM
Swearing something by heaven

Something that we are commanded not to.

Mt 5:34 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=34) But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne:

Mt 5:36 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=36) Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because thou canst not make one hair white or black.

Jas 5:12 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=59&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=12) But above all things, my brethren, swear not, neither by heaven, neither by the earth, neither by any other oath: but let your yea be yea; and your nay, nay; lest ye fall into

That, as you have said leaves prayer.

Firstfruits

keck553
Dec 22nd 2008, 11:00 PM
Most of these verses are not referring to prayer.

Well I can tell you my relationship with God contains lots of words, ideas, questions, pleas, thanks and compassion. Of course this isn't in the form of literagy, it's just how I conduct my personal relationships. I figure if God is going to be intimate in my life, I'm going to tell Him all the details (even though He already knows them). He teaches me lots through this way. I don't know if that's prayer or not, and I suppose it doesn't really matter.

carissadawn
Dec 22nd 2008, 11:04 PM
Swearing something by heaven

Wow, you do let your words be few dontcha? :P

Brother Mark
Dec 22nd 2008, 11:14 PM
There is danger in using Ecclesiastes to build a doctrine... Try this verse out for size.

Eccl 10:19
19 Men prepare a meal for enjoyment, and wine makes life merry, and money is the answer to everything.
NASB

The same can be true of proverbs. There is wisdom to be found in them and we need to pay attention. One should be very careful when approaching God with demands. Yet, Jesus himself gave us this instruction when praying too.

Luke 18:1-7

18 Now He was telling them a parable to show that at all times they ought to pray and not to lose heart, 2 saying, "There was in a certain city a judge who did not fear God, and did not respect man. 3 "And there was a widow in that city, and she kept coming to him, saying, 'Give me legal protection from my opponent.' 4 "And for a while he was unwilling; but afterward he said to himself, 'Even though I do not fear God nor respect man, 5 yet because this widow bothers me, I will give her legal protection, lest by continually coming she wear me out.' " 6 And the Lord said, "Hear what the unrighteous judge said; 7 now shall not God bring about justice for His elect, who cry to Him day and night, and will He delay long over them?
NASB

And of course, Paul instructed us to pray without ceasing. There is certainly more to prayer than just words. We all need to listen more.

Grace and peace,

Mark

keck553
Dec 22nd 2008, 11:21 PM
And of course, Paul instructed us to pray without ceasing. There is certainly more to prayer than just words. We all need to listen more.

Grace and peace,

Mark

Not to mention that Issiac and Rebeka prayed for probably 25 YEARS for a child.

As far as basing a doctrine from a particular portion of Scripture - I'll go with the principal that Scripture pulled out of context is pretext. This is what those prospertiy people do. It's very harmful.

Walstib
Dec 23rd 2008, 12:05 AM
Hi FF,

I approached this in entirely the wrong way. I agree there is much wisdom in fewer words. Not seeing one verse that same way does not mean I don't agree with the concept. I have often gotten into trouble I did not need to have found, if I had kept my mouth shut. ;)

Peace,
Joe

Bladers
Dec 23rd 2008, 12:13 AM
i thank God for these verses

how many times have we heard preachers tell us we need to get up and pray for an hour a day?

i used to do this and basically just make up things to say.

the issue is not length but content. God wants us to just let it out, stop beating around the bush, and when youve said what you need to say, just shut up! haha

prayer is nothing more than coming before the throne of God to talk to Him

its simply talking to Him. It is special because we are going before God but we dont have to act all religious when we pray. Just be yourself, respectful to God, and honest

say what you gotta say and leave it at that

My brother how long do you pray?

carissadawn
Dec 23rd 2008, 01:00 AM
Hi FF,

I approached this in entirely the wrong way. I agree there is much wisdom in fewer words. Not seeing one verse that same way does not mean I don't agree with the concept. I have often gotten into trouble I did not need to have found, if I had kept my mouth shut. ;)

Peace,
Joe

Oh goodness me too! LOL!

Emanate
Dec 23rd 2008, 04:47 PM
Something that we are commanded not to.

Mt 5:34 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=34) But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne:

Mt 5:36 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=36) Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because thou canst not make one hair white or black.

Jas 5:12 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=59&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=12) But above all things, my brethren, swear not, neither by heaven, neither by the earth, neither by any other oath: but let your yea be yea; and your nay, nay; lest ye fall into

That, as you have said leaves prayer.

Firstfruits


Ecclesiastes is in what is commonly called the Old Testament. Oaths are indeed laid out in said OT.

Lev. 19:12 And ye shall not swear by my name falsely, neither shalt thou profane the name of thy God: I am the LORD.

Num. 30:2 If a man vow a vow unto the LORD, or swear an oath to bind his soul with a bond; he shall not break his word, he shall do according to all that proceedeth out of his mouth.

Deu 6:13 Thou shalt fear the LORD thy God, and serve him, and shalt swear by his name.

Deu 10:20 Thou shalt fear the LORD thy God; him shalt thou serve, and to him shalt thou cleave, and swear by his name.

SO, yes, it is quite logical that Solomon was referring to oaths.

Friend of I AM
Dec 23rd 2008, 06:25 PM
I've always thought that what Solomon was referring to was basically committing to something that you have no ability to fulfill..not specifically making promises to people. We make oaths all of the time within this walk. Marriage vows..oaths, contracts, etc.

Solomon was King during the time, so he had to fulfill many oaths and vows to God and to his own people. That's why the promises of God are long lasting and true..as he has the ability to fulfill them. I think it's okay to make an oath with someone you know you can keep. It demonstrates faithfulness of character if one does make one.

Walstib
Dec 23rd 2008, 06:40 PM
I've always thought that what Solomon was referring to was basically committing to something that you have no ability to fulfill..not specifically making promises to people. We make oaths all of the time within this walk. Marriage vows..oaths, contracts, etc.

I hear you, there are different kinds. When I think of oaths to God specifically, I remember the first time I promised God I would never sin again.

And then I stumbled.

I have never made an oath to God since.

Peace,
Joe

Friend of I AM
Dec 23rd 2008, 07:19 PM
I guess the model prayer to be given would be the one Jesus gives(Matthew 6) I'm not sure if God really has a specific word count though..I'm sure there are many long prayers that are heart felt. I'm thinking many times when one get's in their prayer closet..those are probably the times when one has the longest most heart felt prayers...I don't think God really requires a time limit..as long as the prayer is from the heart..

Chimon
Dec 23rd 2008, 07:33 PM
I have a question for you, firstfruits. Maybe you can help me understand this.

How are we to let our words be few in prayer, and yet, "pray without ceasing" (1Thess 5:17) and be "praying at all times in the Spirit, with all prayer and supplication"? (Eph 6:18) Why does Paul "urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all people"? (1Tim 2:1.) Why does he say that we should "in everything by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known to God"? (Php 4:6)


Thanks for your help. Blessings, and Merry Christmas!

reformedct
Dec 23rd 2008, 08:20 PM
I hear you, there are different kinds. When I think of oaths to God specifically, I remember the first time I promised God I would never sin again.

And then I stumbled.

I have never made an oath to God since.

Peace,
Joe

lol i used to do that all the time

it makes me think of Peter:

I WILL DIE FOR YOU LORD!!

jesus was like: yeah right Peter, your gonna deny me three times in a minute

if i was Peter i woulda MADE SURE i didnt deny Jesus, lol but then again maybe im being just like peter

Peter got confronted by a little slave girl and started denying he even knew Jesus

I learned from the story that it is foolish to make promises to God. It is better to just live life and try than to make a promise that you do not keep. Just live. We never know what we are truly capable of doing untill we are under extreme circumstances. We shouldt promise that we will or wont do anything before God

reformedct
Dec 23rd 2008, 08:23 PM
I have a question for you, firstfruits. Maybe you can help me understand this.

How are we to let our words be few in prayer, and yet, "pray without ceasing" (1Thess 5:17) and be "praying at all times in the Spirit, with all prayer and supplication"? (Eph 6:18) Why does Paul "urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all people"? (1Tim 2:1.) Why does he say that we should "in everything by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known to God"? (Php 4:6)


Thanks for your help. Blessings, and Merry Christmas!

just my view. I think this means that we should constantly talk to God throughout the day, but i think the verse is refferring to a lifestyle full of prayer. Not literally waking up in the morning and praying until the sun goes down, but a way of living in which you are constantly talking to God throughout the day, with normal words or praying in the Spirit. however when we pray, we shouldnt just repeat the same prayers and go on and on and on just for the purpose of being able to say "i prayed for an hour"

Talk to God a lot, but dont be repetitive and religious

keck553
Dec 23rd 2008, 09:45 PM
just my view. I think this means that we should constantly talk to God throughout the day, but i think the verse is refferring to a lifestyle full of prayer. Not literally waking up in the morning and praying until the sun goes down, but a way of living in which you are constantly talking to God throughout the day, with normal words or praying in the Spirit. however when we pray, we shouldnt just repeat the same prayers and go on and on and on just for the purpose of being able to say "i prayed for an hour"

Talk to God a lot, but dont be repetitive and religious

The religious part I can understand, but don't you think Isaac and Rivka were reptetitive for two decades asking for a son? I think their perserverance was a great testimony. It sure beat taking a short cut with an Egyptian servant!

Gulah Papyrus
Dec 23rd 2008, 11:11 PM
I have understood it as meaning that there is no need to try to impress God(or your fellow man) with excessive verbage. He already knows what you want so just cut the drama and pray from your heart. If the words are heartfelt then the number of them used is not restricted.

As for praying without ceasing, i believe this means living your life in a 'state' of prayer...always giving thanks, always acknowledging that you can do nothing without Him, always seeking His guidence etc...live in a state of constant awareness of Him. You can pray without ceasing while using few words because with every moment that passes you have new reason to be thankful, to seek guidence and to praise Him...but within each prayer I believe He wants us to keep them simple, fucussed and true.

RogerW
Dec 24th 2008, 01:39 AM
According to the following scriptures concerning prayer, we are we are taught that when we pray we should "Therefore Let Thy Words Be Few"

Eccles 5:2 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=21&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=2) Be not rash with thy mouth, and let not thine heart Be hasty to utter any thing Before God: for God is in heaven, and thou upon earth: therefore let thy words Be few.

Mt 6:7 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=7) But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.

In contrast to what it says concerning long prayer;

Mt 23:14 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=23&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=14) Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation.

Mk 12:40 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=41&CHAP=12&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=40) Which devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayers: these shall receive greater damnation.

Lk 20:47 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=42&CHAP=20&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=47) Which devour widows' houses, and for a shew make long prayers: the same shall receive greater damnation.

Do we still apply "Therefore Let Thy Words Be Few" when we pray? :bible:

God bless you!

Firstfruits

When reading Ecc 5:2 in context with verse 1, the passage seems to suggest thinking before we speak, whether praying or making a vow to God.

Ec 5:1 Keep thy foot when thou goest to the house of God, and be more ready to hear, than to give the sacrifice of fools: for they consider not that they do evil.
Ec 5:2 Be not rash with thy mouth, and let not thine heart be hasty to utter any thing before God: for God is in heaven, and thou upon earth: therefore let thy words be few.

I don't read this having anything to do with sincere prayer being short or long. I also don't find prohibition against long prayers done in submission, humility and sincerity. The Lord's admonition against wordy praying was toward hypocrites, and the heathen not Christians.

Many Blessings,
RW

Firstfruits
Dec 24th 2008, 03:43 PM
Not to mention that Issiac and Rebeka prayed for probably 25 YEARS for a child.

As far as basing a doctrine from a particular portion of Scripture - I'll go with the principal that Scripture pulled out of context is pretext. This is what those prospertiy people do. It's very harmful.

If Christ had not confirmed that which was already written and also given an example and there were no other scriptures that also confirm this then that would be ground for saying it is out of context, but Christ has, and there are.

Eccles 5:2 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=21&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=2) Be not rash with thy mouth, and let not thine heart Be hasty to utter any thing Before God: for God is in heaven, and thou upon earth: therefore let thy words Be few.

Mt 6:7 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=7) But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.

Mt 23:14 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=23&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=14) Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation.

Mk 12:40 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=41&CHAP=12&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=40) Which devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayers: these shall receive greater damnation.

Lk 20:47 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=42&CHAP=20&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=47) Which devour widows' houses, and for a shew make long prayers: the same shall receive greater damnation.

:bounce::bounce::bounce:

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Dec 24th 2008, 03:49 PM
When reading Ecc 5:2 in context with verse 1, the passage seems to suggest thinking before we speak, whether praying or making a vow to God.

Ec 5:1 Keep thy foot when thou goest to the house of God, and be more ready to hear, than to give the sacrifice of fools: for they consider not that they do evil.
Ec 5:2 Be not rash with thy mouth, and let not thine heart be hasty to utter any thing before God: for God is in heaven, and thou upon earth: therefore let thy words be few.

I don't read this having anything to do with sincere prayer being short or long. I also don't find prohibition against long prayers done in submission, humility and sincerity. The Lord's admonition against wordy praying was toward hypocrites, and the heathen not Christians.

Many Blessings,
RW

Read the last clause; Ec 5:2 Be not rash with thy mouth, and let not thine heart be hasty to utter any thing before God: for God is in heaven, and thou upon earth: therefore let thy words be few.

Was Jesus not talking about prayer?

Mt 6:7 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=7) But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.

Firstfruits

Brother Mark
Dec 24th 2008, 03:54 PM
Read the last clause; Ec 5:2 Be not rash with thy mouth, and let not thine heart be hasty to utter any thing before God: for God is in heaven, and thou upon earth: therefore let thy words be few.

Was Jesus not talking about prayer?

Mt 6:7 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=7) But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.

Firstfruits


There is a difference between vain repetition and asking repeatedly. Jesus did not only ask one time, he asked three times. Again, in the words of our Lord, here is an example he gave us for prayer...

Luke 18:1-8

18 Now He was telling them a parable to show that at all times they ought to pray and not to lose heart, 2 saying, "There was in a certain city a judge who did not fear God, and did not respect man. 3 "And there was a widow in that city, and she kept coming to him, saying, 'Give me legal protection from my opponent.' 4 "And for a while he was unwilling; but afterward he said to himself, 'Even though I do not fear God nor respect man, 5 yet because this widow bothers me, I will give her legal protection, lest by continually coming she wear me out.' " 6 And the Lord said, "Hear what the unrighteous judge said; 7 now shall not God bring about justice for His elect, who cry to Him day and night, and will He delay long over them? 8 "I tell you that He will bring about justice for them speedily. However, when the Son of Man comes, will He find faith on the earth?"
NASB

We see here that God's elect never stop praying for justice but it is a repeated cry, day and night. Repetitious for sure, but certainly not vain.

Firstfruits
Dec 24th 2008, 03:57 PM
I have understood it as meaning that there is no need to try to impress God(or your fellow man) with excessive verbage. He already knows what you want so just cut the drama and pray from your heart. If the words are heartfelt then the number of them used is not restricted.

As for praying without ceasing, i believe this means living your life in a 'state' of prayer...always giving thanks, always acknowledging that you can do nothing without Him, always seeking His guidence etc...live in a state of constant awareness of Him. You can pray without ceasing while using few words because with every moment that passes you have new reason to be thankful, to seek guidence and to praise Him...but within each prayer I believe He wants us to keep them simple, fucussed and true.

Thank you GP,

I say amen to that.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Dec 24th 2008, 04:03 PM
The religious part I can understand, but don't you think Isaac and Rivka were reptetitive for two decades asking for a son? I think their perserverance was a great testimony. It sure beat taking a short cut with an Egyptian servant!

Mt 6:7 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=7) But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.

This scripture says "vain repititions", what does it mean to to use VAIN Repititions?

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Dec 24th 2008, 04:07 PM
There is a difference between vain repetition and asking repeatedly. Jesus did not only ask one time, he asked three times. Again, in the words of our Lord, here is an example he gave us for prayer...

Luke 18:1-8

18 Now He was telling them a parable to show that at all times they ought to pray and not to lose heart, 2 saying, "There was in a certain city a judge who did not fear God, and did not respect man. 3 "And there was a widow in that city, and she kept coming to him, saying, 'Give me legal protection from my opponent.' 4 "And for a while he was unwilling; but afterward he said to himself, 'Even though I do not fear God nor respect man, 5 yet because this widow bothers me, I will give her legal protection, lest by continually coming she wear me out.' " 6 And the Lord said, "Hear what the unrighteous judge said; 7 now shall not God bring about justice for His elect, who cry to Him day and night, and will He delay long over them? 8 "I tell you that He will bring about justice for them speedily. However, when the Son of Man comes, will He find faith on the earth?"
NASB

We see here that God's elect never stop praying for justice but it is a repeated cry, day and night. Repetitious for sure, but certainly not vain.

Snap!!!!

Hence my last post.

Firstfruits

Chimon
Dec 24th 2008, 06:48 PM
I think 'vain' is a poor translation because it implies that repeated words should not be used because prayers that are repeated will have no effect on 'swaying' God.

The NASB translates the Greek 'meaningless' while the ESV uses the word 'empty.'

So here Jesus is not forbiding repetitive prayer, but rather praying with words that you don't mean or understand.

In other words, Jesus wants people to pray with their whole heart behind their words, rather than repeating phrases they have been taught in some intellectual dispassionate effort to sway God. So, repetition is fine, and not at all the issue. It is sincerity of heart that seems to be the issue to me.

What do you think of that?

Love in Christ,
Chimon

Firstfruits
Dec 24th 2008, 09:08 PM
I think 'vain' is a poor translation because it implies that repeated words should not be used because prayers that are repeated will have no effect on 'swaying' God.

The NASB translates the Greek 'meaningless' while the ESV uses the word 'empty.'

So here Jesus is not forbiding repetitive prayer, but rather praying with words that you don't mean or understand.

In other words, Jesus wants people to pray with their whole heart behind their words, rather than repeating phrases they have been taught in some intellectual dispassionate effort to sway God. So, repetition is fine, and not at all the issue. It is sincerity of heart that seems to be the issue to me.

What do you think of that?

Love in Christ,
Chimon

I agree that sincerity is a part of the issue, but it does not change "therefore let thy words be few"

Not everyone accepts that someone that prays few words is sincere.

Have you ever heard it said "Pray until you pray"?

Knowing that Jesus confirmed what is written, I would lean to accepting what Jesus has said.

Eccles 5:2 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=21&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=2) Be not rash with thy mouth, and let not thine heart Be hasty to utter any thing Before God: for God is in heaven, and thou upon earth: therefore let thy words Be few.

Mt 6:7 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=7) But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Dec 26th 2008, 01:30 PM
Who shall we obey?

Shall we do much speaking in the hope that we shall be heard?

Mt 6:7 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=7) But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Zack702
Dec 26th 2008, 02:13 PM
Who shall we obey?

Shall we do much speaking in the hope that we shall be heard?

Mt 6:7 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=7) But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

I agree we should be aware that God knows our hearts even when we do not pray.
To know this is to pray without stopping to know that God is watching and that our hearts are aware of his presence.
Then that short but wise prayer for God's will to be becomes exceedingly wise.

Dani H
Dec 26th 2008, 02:58 PM
I've noticed that over the years, my getting closer to the Lord has certainly resulted in using less words.

There certainly are words involved during petition and thanksgiving, or in hashing something out with the Father and just laying my heart bare before Him, but during times of fellowship with God ... no words needed. :)

I think our flesh has something in it where we think that praying equals talking.

It doesn't.

You can pray and not talk, and you can talk and not pray. :)

Bladers
Dec 26th 2008, 04:11 PM
I think 'vain' is a poor translation because it implies that repeated words should not be used because prayers that are repeated will have no effect on 'swaying' God.

The NASB translates the Greek 'meaningless' while the ESV uses the word 'empty.'

So here Jesus is not forbiding repetitive prayer, but rather praying with words that you don't mean or understand.

In other words, Jesus wants people to pray with their whole heart behind their words, rather than repeating phrases they have been taught in some intellectual dispassionate effort to sway God. So, repetition is fine, and not at all the issue. It is sincerity of heart that seems to be the issue to me.

What do you think of that?

Love in Christ,
Chimon

Repetition means -
1) A recitation or recital, especially of prepared or memorized material.


Jesus actually called repetition, "VAIN". meaning fruitless, without an outcome. The bible calls it foolish.

There is nothing as good or bad repetition, its repetition. If you come to God's presence and you recite your prayerlist 10 times, he heard you the first time. and the other 9 times was useless... While you could have waited for him to answer you, you went babbling the same thing over and over for an hour.

Why? "for they think they will be heard because of their many words."


In order for you to pray for hours and fellowship with Jesus as he did with the Father. You have to do this.

Ephesians 6:18 (KJV) - Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints;

Ephesians 6:18 (NIV) - And pray in the Spirit on all occasions with all kinds of prayers and requests. With this in mind, be alert and always keep on praying for all the saints.

Firstfruits
Dec 26th 2008, 09:03 PM
I agree we should be aware that God knows our hearts even when we do not pray.
To know this is to pray without stopping to know that God is watching and that our hearts are aware of his presence.
Then that short but wise prayer for God's will to be becomes exceedingly wise.

Thanks Zack,

That surely confirms what is written in the following scripture;

Prov 17:27 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=20&CHAP=17&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=27) He that hath knowledge spareth his words: and a man of understanding is of an excellent spirit.

Prov 17:28 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=20&CHAP=17&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=28) Even a fool, when he holdeth his peace, is counted wise: and he that shutteth his lips is esteemed a man of understanding.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Dec 26th 2008, 09:07 PM
I've noticed that over the years, my getting closer to the Lord has certainly resulted in using less words.

There certainly are words involved during petition and thanksgiving, or in hashing something out with the Father and just laying my heart bare before Him, but during times of fellowship with God ... no words needed. :)

I think our flesh has something in it where we think that praying equals talking.

It doesn't.

You can pray and not talk, and you can talk and not pray. :)

Thanks DaniHansen,

We may not be aware of the problems concerning using "a multitude of words;

Prov 10:19 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=20&CHAP=10&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=19) In the multitude of words there wanteth not sin: but he that refraineth his lips is wise.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Dec 26th 2008, 09:09 PM
Repetition means -
1) A recitation or recital, especially of prepared or memorized material.


Jesus actually called repetition, "VAIN". meaning fruitless, without an outcome. The bible calls it foolish.

There is nothing as good or bad repetition, its repetition. If you come to God's presence and you recite your prayerlist 10 times, he heard you the first time. and the other 9 times was useless... While you could have waited for him to answer you, you went babbling the same thing over and over for an hour.

Why? "for they think they will be heard because of their many words."


In other for you to pray for hours and fellowship with Jesus as he did with the Father. You have to do this.

Ephesians 6:18 (KJV) - Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints;

Ephesians 6:18 (NIV) - And pray in the Spirit on all occasions with all kinds of prayers and requests. With this in mind, be alert and always keep on praying for all the saints.

Thanks bladers,

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Bladers
Dec 27th 2008, 03:25 PM
One more thing i did like to add. There are three dimension on prayer

Three Dimension of Prayer

1) Flesh = World conscience

2) Soul = Mind conscience

3) Spirit = God conscience


What happens in these three dimension of prayer?
Matt 5:7 - Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you.

1) Flesh = Asking

2) Soul = Seeking

3) Spirit = Knocking/Intimacy

We can also look at it through the tabernacle that God told moses to build

1) Outer Court

2) Holy Place

3) Holy of Holies


1) You Ask with a Prayer list in the outer court

2) You seek in the Holy Place with Worship and adoration and just loving Jesus

2) You Knock to enter the Holy of Holies by crying out to Jesus or with Holy Silence and there the bible says "I will speak with thee"

By the time you are done with 1 and 2, and you feel in your spirit to start knocking on the door of the holy of holies. Step 1 & 2 might be a good two hours, only if you have been rusty and do not pray every day.

Firstfruits
Dec 27th 2008, 03:37 PM
One more thing i did like to add. There are three dimension on prayer

Three Dimension of Prayer

1) Flesh = World conscience

2) Soul = Mind conscience

3) Spirit = God conscience


What happens in these three dimension of prayer?
Matt 5:7 - Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you.

1) Flesh = Asking

2) Soul = Seeking

3) Spirit = Knocking/Intimacy

We can also look at it through the tabernacle that God told moses to build

1) Outer Court

2) Holy Place

3) Holy of Holies


1) You Ask with a Prayer list in the outer court

2) You seek in the Holy Place with Worship and adoration and just loving Jesus

2) You Knock to enter the Holy of Holies by crying out to Jesus or with Holy Silence and there the bible says "I will speak with thee"

By the time you are done with 1 and 2, and you feel in your spirit to start knocking on the door of the holy of holies. That might be a good two hours, only if you have been rusty and do not pray every day.

With regards to the following, would it not depend on what you are praying for?

Mt 6:25 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=25) Therefore I say unto you, Take no thought for your life, what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink; nor yet for your body, what ye shall put on. Is not the life more than meat, and the body than raiment?

Mt 6:31 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=31) Therefore take no thought, saying, What shall we eat? or, What shall we drink? or, Wherewithal shall we be clothed?

Firstfruits

Brother Mark
Dec 27th 2008, 03:41 PM
Repetition means -
1) A recitation or recital, especially of prepared or memorized material.


Jesus actually called repetition, "VAIN". meaning fruitless, without an outcome. The bible calls it foolish.

There is nothing as good or bad repetition, its repetition. If you come to God's presence and you recite your prayerlist 10 times, he heard you the first time. and the other 9 times was useless... While you could have waited for him to answer you, you went babbling the same thing over and over for an hour.

Why? "for they think they will be heard because of their many words."


In order for you to pray for hours and fellowship with Jesus as he did with the Father. You have to do this.

Ephesians 6:18 (KJV) - Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints;

Ephesians 6:18 (NIV) - And pray in the Spirit on all occasions with all kinds of prayers and requests. With this in mind, be alert and always keep on praying for all the saints.

I suppose that Jesus repeating his request 3 times was vanity, as was Paul when he repeated his request 3 times.

Bladers
Dec 27th 2008, 03:42 PM
With regards to the following, would it not depend on what you are praying for?

Mt 6:25 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=25) Therefore I say unto you, Take no thought for your life, what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink; nor yet for your body, what ye shall put on. Is not the life more than meat, and the body than raiment?

Mt 6:31 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=31) Therefore take no thought, saying, What shall we eat? or, What shall we drink? or, Wherewithal shall we be clothed?

Firstfruits

Well thats the asking dimension right there. You come to God and you confess your sins and you start telling him your prayer list. I want this, i want that, and so on. But so many people stop there and think thats all there is to prayer and they say amen.

Missing the 2nd realm and the 3rd realm. What did Jesus say? Seek the Kingdom! But people only ask and never move on to seeking!

Bladers
Dec 27th 2008, 03:46 PM
I suppose that Jesus repeating his request 3 times was vanity, as was Paul when he repeated his request 3 times. No, Each time Jesus left. He started all over from the beginning again. He had to go through asking, seeking, and knocking.
So He asks each time and then goes to seeking the Father and knocking in Holy Silence.

Brother Mark
Dec 27th 2008, 03:51 PM
No, Each time Jesus left. He started all over from the beginning again. He had to go through asking, seeking, and knocking.
So He asks each time and then goes to seeking the Father and knocking in Holy Silence.

And that's the point. Repetition is not always vain, for Christ repeated his prayer, 3 times.

Indeed, prayer is more than words, for we must "watch" and we must listen. Often, we need ask multiple times to get the full understanding that is needed.

We have not, because we ask not. Jesus asked repeatedly, as did Paul. It is not always vain.

Firstfruits
Dec 27th 2008, 03:54 PM
Well thats the asking dimension right there. You come to God and you confess your sins and you start telling him your prayer list. I want this, i want that, and so on. But so many people stop there and think thats all there is to prayer and they say amen.

Missing the 2nd realm and the 3rd realm. What did Jesus say? Seek the Kingdom! But people only ask and never move on to seeking!

Again it depends on what you are praying for knowing that God know all our needs and knowing that we can ask AMISS.

Jas 4:3 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=59&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=3) Ye ask, and receive not, because ye ask amiss, that ye may consume it upon your lusts.

The following would therefore apply.

Prov 10:19 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=20&CHAP=10&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=19) In the multitude of words there wanteth not sin: but he that refraineth his lips is wise.

Firstfruits

Bladers
Dec 27th 2008, 04:01 PM
And that's the point. Repetition is not always vain, for Christ repeated his prayer, 3 times.

Indeed, prayer is more than words, for we must "watch" and we must listen. Often, we need ask multiple times to get the full understanding that is needed.

We have not, because we ask not. Jesus asked repeatedly, as did Paul. It is not always vain.

But you have to also understand, Christ repeated His prayer because He left His prayer closet.

And I'm not saying that all repetition is vain. But by vain repetition i dont mean like" God i want a car", "God please give me a car because i really need it", "Lord please i want a car because i need it to go to work".

No i mean reciting your prayerlist over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over. Not because your burdened with it, because there is nothing else to say... so you think maybe if i keep repeating it He will hear me.

Jesus spoke against vain repetition. The real question is; When does repetition becomes vain?

Brother Mark
Dec 27th 2008, 04:10 PM
But you have to also understand, Christ repeated His prayer because He left His prayer closet.

And I'm not saying that all repetition is vain. But by vain repetition i dont mean like" God i want a car", "God please give me a car because i really need it", "Lord please i want a car because i need it to go to work".

No i mean reciting your prayerlist over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over. Not because your burdened with it, because there is nothing else to say... so you think maybe if i keep repeating it He will hear me.

Jesus spoke against vain repetition. The real question is; When does repetition becomes vain?

Very good! Like Paul, and like Jesus, we may come to God several times about a certain thing. We must understand that often, this thing we wish to change is the very thing God is using to mold us and to change us. Each time we enter into prayer, we need to listen. Just repeating words for the sake of repeating words is vain. Yet, I have found myself in prayer for long periods of time with brokenness and distress over lost souls. Repeatedly they were prayed for till the word came "it is done". Yet, it was not me that prayed, it was the Spirit that prayed through me.

A good example of a vain repetition would be Balaam asking if he could go with the enemies of Israel. The first time he asked, God said no. The second time, God said yet but met him one the way to kill him.

Vain repetition is a matter of the heart far more than it is a matter of words.

Whether one leaves his prayer closet or not has little to do with it. For Balaam prayed his second prayer at a later time too, and it was still in vain.

Firstfruits
Dec 27th 2008, 04:35 PM
Very good! Like Paul, and like Jesus, we may come to God several times about a certain thing. We must understand that often, this thing we wish to change is the very thing God is using to mold us and to change us. Each time we enter into prayer, we need to listen. Just repeating words for the sake of repeating words is vain. Yet, I have found myself in prayer for long periods of time with brokenness and distress over lost souls. Repeatedly they were prayed for till the word came "it is done". Yet, it was not me that prayed, it was the Spirit that prayed through me.

A good example of a vain repetition would be Balaam asking if he could go with the enemies of Israel. The first time he asked, God said no. The second time, God said yet but met him one the way to kill him.

Vain repetition is a matter of the heart far more than it is a matter of words.

Whether one leaves his prayer closet or not has little to do with it. For Balaam prayed his second prayer at a later time too, and it was still in vain.

Remember that Jesus said that our Father knows what we NEED before we ask, so if we are repeating that which God already knows, would that be considered as vain?

Firstfruits

Brother Mark
Dec 27th 2008, 04:53 PM
Remember that Jesus said that our Father knows what we NEED before we ask, so if we are repeating that which God already knows, would that be considered as vain?

Firstfruits

No it would not. For God knows everything. God also told us that we have no because we ask not, even though he knows our needs. Is there anything we can say to God that he does not know already?

Firstfruits
Dec 27th 2008, 05:08 PM
No it would not. For God knows everything. God also told us that we have no because we ask not, even though he knows our needs. Is there anything we can say to God that he does not know already?

I did not mean that we should not ask what God already knows, but that if we have asked and keep repeating just for the sake of speaking, would that be vain?

Firstfruits

Brother Mark
Dec 27th 2008, 07:02 PM
I did not mean that we should not ask what God already knows, but that if we have asked and keep repeating just for the sake of speaking, would that be vain?

Firstfruits

What was the teaching of Jesus concerning the matter? Did Jesus get an answer after requesting the first time that the cup be removed? He already knew the answer, and asked anyway.

What of Paul? When did God give him his answer?

What of the unjust judge that Jesus used as an example?

Again, vain is about the heart and how we use our words. For from the abundance of the heart, the mouth speaks. If the heart is full of vanity, then the words will be in vain.

Chimon
Dec 28th 2008, 07:39 AM
Where did you learn this, and how do you support it with Scripture?


One more thing i did like to add. There are three dimension on prayer

Three Dimension of Prayer

1) Flesh = World conscience

2) Soul = Mind conscience

3) Spirit = God conscience


What happens in these three dimension of prayer?
Matt 5:7 - Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you.

1) Flesh = Asking

2) Soul = Seeking

3) Spirit = Knocking/Intimacy

We can also look at it through the tabernacle that God told moses to build

1) Outer Court

2) Holy Place

3) Holy of Holies


1) You Ask with a Prayer list in the outer court

2) You seek in the Holy Place with Worship and adoration and just loving Jesus

2) You Knock to enter the Holy of Holies by crying out to Jesus or with Holy Silence and there the bible says "I will speak with thee"

By the time you are done with 1 and 2, and you feel in your spirit to start knocking on the door of the holy of holies. Step 1 & 2 might be a good two hours, only if you have been rusty and do not pray every day.

Firstfruits
Dec 28th 2008, 11:42 AM
What was the teaching of Jesus concerning the matter? Did Jesus get an answer after requesting the first time that the cup be removed? He already knew the answer, and asked anyway.

What of Paul? When did God give him his answer?

What of the unjust judge that Jesus used as an example?

Again, vain is about the heart and how we use our words. For from the abundance of the heart, the mouth speaks. If the heart is full of vanity, then the words will be in vain.

So it comes down to how our prayers are offered;

In truth,

Believing,

Perserverance,

In faith, not wavering,

Thanks giving,

Not double minded,

In righteousness.

Add to that "Let thy words be few" as it is written then we should have a firm grounding for how the scriptures say we should pray.

Sciptures available for points given.

God bless you!

Firstfruits