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rationalist
Dec 21st 2008, 09:34 PM
Has anyone ever looked at the tone of the Old and New testaments. It seems as if the Old Testament is filled with God proclaiming himself as the one true God and punishing people who did not believe his word. Such as Sodom and Gomorrah, Noah's flood, the Fall from Grace and the Old testament is littered with verses of threats from God for those who did not believe. Then you have the new testament which seems completely different in tone. A god who is all loving and forgiving, who sent his only son for a sacrifice so that we may be saved. The teachings of Jesus are somewhat different then a lot of the messages of the old testament. Plus the new testament is from Gospels whose authors were exposed to Jesus himself where as the Old testament is mostly written by Moses which is a whole other problem when it comes to writing and copying books of that era. Since most historical theologians even agree that a written language did not exist at the time of Moses. So to write so many books would have been impossible unless they were transcribed by Jewish priest later on from a passed on word so to speak.


Your thoughts?

Emanate
Dec 21st 2008, 09:54 PM
Since most historical theologians even agree that a written language did not exist at the time of Moses.



This is the first time I have ever heard this. I would have to call any of these "theologians" suspect

kenrank
Dec 21st 2008, 10:35 PM
This is the first time I have ever heard this. I would have to call any of these "theologians" suspect

Add me to that list. I recently finished a book called "Rabbi Akiba's Messiah." (an indictment on rabbinical authority) Anyway, one chapter was filled with nothing but verses, mostly in Deut., where YHWH says over and over and over again....write it down....write it down....write it down! I was simply blown away...everytime he gave a command..."write it down."

If there was no written language back then, somebody forgot to tell God!

Peace.
Ken

ServantofTruth
Dec 21st 2008, 10:48 PM
Has anyone ever looked at the tone of the Old and New testaments. It seems as if the Old Testament is filled with God proclaiming himself as the one true God and punishing people who did not believe his word. Such as Sodom and Gomorrah, Noah's flood, the Fall from Grace and the Old testament is littered with verses of threats from God for those who did not believe. Then you have the new testament which seems completely different in tone. A god who is all loving and forgiving, who sent his only son for a sacrifice so that we may be saved. The teachings of Jesus are somewhat different then a lot of the messages of the old testament. Plus the new testament is from Gospels whose authors were exposed to Jesus himself where as the Old testament is mostly written by Moses which is a whole other problem when it comes to writing and copying books of that era. Since most historical theologians even agree that a written language did not exist at the time of Moses. So to write so many books would have been impossible unless they were transcribed by Jewish priest later on from a passed on word so to speak.


Your thoughts?

A good topic and one often brought up by non christians and those new in faith. Can I ask how long you have been a Christian and how much bible reading you have done, recently and how regularly. The answers to these questions could help posters address their replies to your present level of understanding.

The bible is a progressive revelation in many ways. Both from Genesis to Revelation, but also in the amount the Spirit of God reveals to us, each time we read a book. Which is why bible reading should be regular, daily if possible, 7 days a week, 365 a year. If anyone ever says, which i have had Christians say to me, we've read the bible, why read it again? - the answer is - the Spirit of God will never stop revealing new truths from the same 66 books each time you read them. This is one way we are 'filled' with the Spirit.

In a life time you can not take in all God has revealed in his Word, the bible. But the more you read and re read the Old v New Testament arguement fades, i promise you. :) SofTy. (i'm in Job in my daily reading)

markedward
Dec 21st 2008, 10:49 PM
Such as Sodom and Gomorrah,The people of Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed because of their total wickedness and perversions. Not for not believing in God.


Noah's flood,Those people were destroyed for the wickedness and incredible violence toward one another. Not for not believing in God.


the Fall from GraceAdam and Eve knew God first-hand. And they disobeyed Him first-hand. He didn't kill them either.


the Old testament is littered with verses of threats from God for those who did not believe.And the New Testament isn't? Read Christ's statements that sinners will be in eternal fire. Read Luke 21, how Jesus prophesied "days of vengeance" upon "this people" (re: His contemporaries). Read Paul's letters how he promised condemnation on the people who turned their backs on God. Read the Revelation, where judgment and eternal condemnation is promised to the wicked.

And the Old Testament does contain a number of cases of God's mercy. Recall how God promised He would not destroy Sodom and Gomorrah if fifty righteous people could be found in it, then eventually lowered the number to only ten righteous people being found in it. He greatly reduced His criteria in man's favor, but even then ten righteous people couldn't be found in the whole city. This is a perfect example of God extending mercy to man and man turning it away. Or God giving protection to Cain despite that he was a murderer.


the Old testament is mostly written by MosesMoses is only said to have written the first five books of the OT, and traditionally is the author of Job. That's only about a seventh of the OT. Not even close to "most" of it.


Since most historical theologians even agree that a written language did not exist at the time of Moses.As the others have said, this is the first time I've heard this. Moses is said to have lived sometime around 1500-1250 BC. Written language is known to have existed as far back as 3000 BC. I'd have to say you're either making a claim out of thin air, or you're appealing to a source that doesn't know what it's talking about.

Oma
Dec 21st 2008, 11:43 PM
You've gotten some very good answers. God is still the same today as He was in Moses time.
I would point to:
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness
2 Tim 3:16 (KJV)

timmyb
Dec 21st 2008, 11:59 PM
I believe that the Old Testament and the New Testament are in no way contradictory and that God's plan was the same and he hasn't deferred from that plan... one common mistake that people make when reading the Old Testament is that they often forget that it contains over 4000 years (correct me if i'm wrong on this one, math was never my strong point so i'll use a bible verse)... from Abraham to David were 14 generations, from David to the Babylonian Captivity were 14 Generations and from the Babylonian Captivity to Christ were 14 generations (Matthew 1:17)... that's quite a long time differing from the New Testament that only covers about 90 years...

God was as patient and loving and kind toward his people then as he was now... he has never changed nor will he... what makes someone who says God never changes yet reads the Old Testament and the New Testament then talks about them as if there were two different Gods in them? If we read it cover to cover and paid attention to the whole thing we would be surprised about how much we don't know about God and his character....

We find God's mercy in the Old Testament through the same prophets that pronounced Judgement on Israel because they refused to repent for 14 generations! God is some kind of patient if you ask me

chad
Dec 22nd 2008, 01:46 AM
The OT is more about trying to atain salvation through the law. The NT is about the Grace of God, and salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. Possibly where there is a different tone.

kenrank
Dec 22nd 2008, 06:27 AM
The OT is more about trying to atain salvation through the law. The NT is about the Grace of God, and salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. Possibly where there is a different tone.

Chad, another way to look at the OT is that it pointed to Messiah. It wasn't about "salvation based on Law." Remember, the "Law" was in place before Sinai. (See Gen 26:5) There is a specific reason it was given in writing at Sinai that has nothing at all to do with salvation, per say. But the OT's intent was to point to the coming Redeemer.

John 5:45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust.
John 5:46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me.
John 5:47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

Peace.
Ken

crossnote
Dec 22nd 2008, 06:54 AM
We find God's mercy in the Old Testament through the same prophets that pronounced Judgement on Israel because they refused to repent for 14 generations! God is some kind of patient if you ask me

And we find God's wrath in the New Testament through the same prophet that often spoke of 'God as love' Hint: Apostle John writing in Revelation (at least ten times). Here is one for starters...
And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
(Rev 6:16).
One caveat- for those with a tender conscience not once is God's wrath directed at Christians in Revelations.

dan
Dec 23rd 2008, 01:47 AM
Has anyone ever looked at the tone of the Old and New testaments. It seems as if the Old Testament is filled with God proclaiming himself as the one true God and punishing people who did not believe his word.

Then you have the new testament which seems completely different in tone. A god who is all loving and forgiving, who sent his only son for a sacrifice so that we may be saved. The teachings of Jesus are somewhat different then a lot of the messages of the old testament.

Your thoughts?

I would say that many of the Prophesies that have God punishing nonbelievers have not been fulfilled yet.

IS 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

IS 57:1 The righteous perisheth, and no man layeth it to heart: and merciful men are taken away, none considering that the righteous is taken away from the evil to come.

IS 65:11 But ye are they that forsake the LORD, that forget my holy mountain, that prepare a table for that troop, and that furnish the drink offering unto that number.
IS 65:12 Therefore will I number you to the sword, and ye shall all bow down to the slaughter: because when I called, ye did not answer; when I spake, ye did not hear; but did evil before mine eyes, and did choose that wherein I delighted not.

AMOS 9:10 All the sinners of my people shall die by the sword, which say, The evil shall not overtake nor prevent us.

ZECH 13:6 And one shall say unto him, What are these wounds in thine hands? Then he shall answer, Those with which I was wounded in the house of my friends.
ZECH 13:7 Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man that is my fellow, saith the LORD of hosts: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones.
ZECH 13:8 And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the LORD, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein.


Also, although Jesus is a buffer between us and God, His messages are similar:

MT 24:43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.

LK 11:21 When a strong man armed keepeth his court, those things are in peace which he possesseth.

LK 19:27 But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.

LK 22:36 Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take [it], and likewise [his] scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.

REV 13:10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.


Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. (Matt 7:21)
Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? (Matt 7:22)
And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. (Matt 7:23)
Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: (Matt 7:24)